asciilifeform: 'chromium' was, last i knew, the ~least~ braindamaged
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there ARE NO sane graphical wwwtrons
mircea_popescu: shinohai any bets on who wins in the end ? :D
mircea_popescu: "the web" as a sort of google-run itunes store ? in the grand tradition of the bbs archive ?
mircea_popescu: "continue rtunning background apps when chromium is closed" thing takes the cake. nigga, say wut ?!
mircea_popescu: oh, don't tell me, i could "save setings online and access them from any browser"
mircea_popescu: popups to translate pages "not in the languages i speak" ? wtf does it know what languages i speak
mircea_popescu: who the fuck ever said chromium is usable ?
mircea_popescu: shares a bar for url and search ? "click here to log what you type in url bar which we now call omnibar" ? there's no way to see cookies, all you can do is "obliterate" items, and limited to "from the past...." so you can't actually purge the shitbag ?
mircea_popescu: so is the guy znort or znor ?
davout: aaand pete_dushenski takes the lead with a 74 btc bid
asciilifeform: and at any rate, 9 was my top bid because... that was all the coinz i had.
mircea_popescu: see alfie, metrics. they make any reality more palatable.
mircea_popescu: in any case he held top bid for a longer interval than the eventual winner is likely to :D
PeterL: asciilifeform maybe you just took the wrong strategy, should have waited until the end to go from .001 to 9 btc, scare everybody else off
gernika: asciilifeform: aqcuirers of web sites typically want all sorts of metrics about the site that might be in the logs.
davout: aaaaand pete is back in the race with a 72 btc bid
davout: aha, i misunderstood, thought he asked pointers to the forum's logs
asciilifeform: in one of the signed bids.
mircea_popescu: wasn't he asking for "the logs" or somesuch ?
mircea_popescu: mine either.
davout: everyone's my sockpuppet except pete who's being milked for the shareholders
davout: the sig is valid once i add <pre>s
davout: so the bid is valid
mircea_popescu pictures various groups frantically trying to gather more liquidity while the +1 btc bit bought them a little time etc
mircea_popescu: hmm seems there's a 71 ?
davout: danielpbarron: yeah, i'm adding them myself since wp is retarded
gribble: The operation succeeded.
davout: imma check the precise timestamps
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: they'll make any payments sometime after microsoft-loses-license-o'clock.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the governments main student-loan program arent making payments << incidentally... i own a coupla of these.
davout: mircea_popescu: one hour after the bid war has stopped basically
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 70 btc
mircea_popescu: im so fucking curious what are the limits of the various parties involved and if any whale lurks lol.
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 63.1337 btc
PeterL: asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << I always thought it was supposed to provide some shade, keep inside car from heating up in the sun?
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 60 btc
asciilifeform: 'The Education Department has assembled a “behavioral sciences unit” to study the psychology of borrowers and why they don’t repay. “We obviously have not cracked that nut but we want to keep working on it,” said Ted Mitchell, the Education Department’s undersecretary. He said many defaulted borrowers dropped out of school and are underemployed.'
asciilifeform: '... The picture has improved slightly from a year earlier, when the nonpayment rate was 46%, but that progress largely reflected a surge in Americans entering a program for distressed borrowers to lower their payments.'
asciilifeform: 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.'
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 50 btc, aka one full Bitcoin block reward
mircea_popescu: and the inept robber and the underpaid policeman also engage in "the same kinda stuff"
PeterL: but isn't it the same kinda stuff ALF is always complaining about?
mircea_popescu: with the right antidepressant medication.
mircea_popescu: PeterL sounds like the usual cocky bullshit infantile idiots with a useless degree and too much reddit exposure spout.
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 41 btc
davout: PeterL: keeps going until one hour elapses after the last bid
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 34 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 33 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 30 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 26 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 20 btc
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/04/open-sourced-vulnerability-database-closes-cites-more-people-taking-their-free-goods-than-giving-them-free-goods/
phf: correct way is to have n bots running on different machines, connecting to different freenode hosts, talking to each other as they get messages, and then submitting a shared answer
phf: bigger concern is not really losing entries, but having invalid id numbers. bot keeps log a b c d bot reconnects and misses a handful of messages g h i j, now in order to insert e f back into the log need to shift g h i j ids forward so if i references h, it's now refering f instead
ben_vulpes: i don't...just pointing out the hoops poor d00d had to jump through in order to publish the thing.
ben_vulpes has been reading through it on the mobi term for dayz, but...miserable css makes mobrowser shit itself
ben_vulpes: for lo, trinque labors over the unicode
phf: there's always backup, so lines are not lost, but everyone is inconvened
mircea_popescu: perhaps. now the counterfactuals clause is certainly kicking in
mircea_popescu: under a thin veneer of bullshit he hides all the socialism you could possibly wish for.
asciilifeform: and ftr i don't much care why he did what he did, terry davis wrote quasi-sane os because the devil personally ordered him to in his sleep
mircea_popescu: anyway. the more rms i read the less i like him. the more i think about rms, the less i like him.
asciilifeform: available by the megatonne.
asciilifeform: as, incidentally, with the fucking rats
asciilifeform: this didn't work so well for the fetus-rights folks
mircea_popescu: "you work for microsoft, you get raped in the parking lot and left to bleed"
mircea_popescu: and it is not clear to you that a brian-less 1984 would have lead to anything less than a complete domination right ? after all, at least he gave winston the book, right ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu often says 'i don't deal in counterfactuals', and the principle seems quite in place here - it is not clear to me that a gcc-less 1980s would have led to anything other than a wintel os+compiler monopoly
asciilifeform: the really tragic bit re rms is that he became a shadow of a man after getting his mcarthur prize. ended up hiring programmers (!) and turning into a bureaucrat.
mircea_popescu: but when it came to individual versus group, he took the usg stand. also every time.
mircea_popescu: wait, i'm supposed to get excited about the campbell can of soup on the left because it is blue ?
mircea_popescu: they both want : no ownership.
asciilifeform: when palladium was but a mere microshit patent, entirely theoretical, rms was the ~only~ one to publicly ring the alarm bells.
mircea_popescu: he is EXACTLY of the same mind as bill gates.
mircea_popescu: the soul of moderation. yes, very fucking good at marketing his supposed extremism
mircea_popescu: in any conflict, there's moderate positions, and then there's extreme positions. if the moderate position is represented (such as here by rms), the problem is papered over, and things continue until we fall over.
mircea_popescu: and for as long as there's a rms to fuck up things, we'll be waiting.
mircea_popescu: we could just as well have conversed about the pike carrying gate's head.
asciilifeform: linux is the only reason we have anything to converse about.
asciilifeform: rms was the only effective antidote to microshit.
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have." <<< mno, pure evil.
asciilifeform: rms lived whole life in motherfucking research institutes
mircea_popescu: hey could lock, another little room. But the point is that people usually don't bother to think about that. They have the idea: This room is Mine, I can lock it, to hell with everyone else, and that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have.
mircea_popescu: hing they thought might get stolen and they wanted to lock it up, but they didn't care about the other people they were affecting by locking up other things in the same room. Almost every time this happened, once I brought it to their attention, that it was not up to them alone whether that room should be locked, they were able to find a compromise solution: some other place to put the things they were worried about, a desk t
mircea_popescu: In the years that followed I was inspired by that ideas, and many times I would climb over ceilings or underneath floors to unlock rooms that had machines in them that people needed to use, and I would usually leave behind a note explaining to the people that they shouldn't be so selfish as to lock the door. The people who locked the door were basically considering only themselves. They had a reason of course, there was somet
mircea_popescu: btw, you quoted the wrong rms bit
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see thread. the haskell folks went entirely with 'fuck the cpu, we'll plug our ears and eyes'
mircea_popescu: so thinking about it, phf really deflated my article. fact remains : cpu is cpu, it will do what it will do. whatever the fuck you call what it does, it's what it does. yes ada is well mistaken to speak wrong mathematics, but then again it's not a mathematics shop. you want to use your lengthier, thicker and more nodular math cock to mock the poor engineers, go ahead, but the fuck it does.
mircea_popescu: there we go.
gribble: "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope." on Trilema ...: <http://trilema.com/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope>; Maxwell House Tomatoes - Food Gardening part 3 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNXR85ec5Z4>; 10 Gorgeous Hollywood Actresses Who are Actually Moms! – All ...: <http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/13/hollywoods-10-most- (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Did you just google the string "horseface"
mircea_popescu: and the role was carrie bradshaw
mircea_popescu: having meanwhile googled the abomination, i can confirm it is sarah jessica parker
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking the 1970 something movie
asciilifeform: ollow the same spirit that I started with the original Emacs. Then he stabbed everyone in the back by putting copyrights on it, making people promise not to redistribute it and then selling it to a software-house. My later dealings with him personally showed that he was every bit as cowardly and despicable as you would expect from that history.'
asciilifeform: 'In the summer of that year, about two years ago now, a friend of mine told me that because of his work in early development of Gosling Emacs, he had permission from Gosling in a message he had been sent to distribute his version of that. Gosling originally had set up his Emacs and distributed it free and gotten many people to help develop it, under the expectation based on Gosling's own words in his own manual that he was going to f
mircea_popescu: phf that's her isn't it ? the woman with a horse face ? carrie something ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it's a special party where everyone invites ugly chicks pretending they're pretty.
phf: asciilifeform: that's too witty for me, i'm just typing all over the place
asciilifeform: the art of fucking hogs ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it went out of style with the 50s household
mircea_popescu: somehow josling kept parsing as the name of an activity.
phf: mircea_popescu: gosling, the guy who designed java, is notable for recognizing the right thing, but intentionally committing an atrocity of java as a language for the corporate programming. in one of his interviews he says something along the lines of "at least we got ~them~ to use a garbage collector". before java gc was an explicitly lisp thing, which is also gosling's pedigree
mircea_popescu: they decided to live separated by age groups ; unlike saner people in europe and arab world, they don't coerce young women into fucking old men
asciilifeform: for 'man' with the long-term memory of a fish, what else is life if not a series of 'reruns'.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447504 << this is generally pretty funny, and more us-specific than anything. doing the nth reimplementation of thing X, never heard of n-1th and take offensew with a complete statement of X.
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bannan&defid=2522572 | Being touched and/or blessed by Bannan: "Bannanized". Refrence back to the definition for examples on how to use the word "Bannan." by Michael Josling July ...
mircea_popescu: doesn't work for the even discussion tho.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447356 << this sounds good in theory, and is doubtless the case in many other places.
phf: that's my impression of american "lucrative" corporate jobs though, because people that i know from that place went on to very similar places, and that's what they do. code as part of special clojure team in a company that's all java, or code in f# for a special f# team in a company that's all .NET. they get drunk during lunch, shit faced on fridays
phf: then grads? probably, i mean it's twenty year olds making six figures to do fuck all in clojure
BingoBoingo: I bet the people around you were somehow more insufferable though.
phf: we had a sort of ritual there, we'd go to a whisky bar for lunch and try their top shelf, the goal was to see how sloshed you can get for after-lunch-standup without mgmt calling you out
phf: that was also my first and last "corporate" job, which was interesting, i quit on the first day after coming back from burning man that same year. good times.
phf: fwiw my first exposure to clojure was a clojure job in finance industry, i did a couple of talks on common lisp within airshot of the hiring person from the team, that was way before 1.0, and we must've been one of the first corporations to use clojure, because hicky made a point of coming to a local tech conference and speaking, i've had beer with him a few times
asciilifeform: but overall the question calls for an expert entomologist and i am grossly underequipped.
asciilifeform: o stands for something else, 'intellectual' wankery of the squirrel-brained
asciilifeform: spears is the one that stands for unwashed entertainment
asciilifeform: i am still waiting for the gasenwagen to come on account of my never having seen oprah.
asciilifeform: nor is involvement with them in any sense obligatory.
asciilifeform: neither is of any intellectual significance to folks with so much as half a squirrel's brain.
asciilifeform: likewise, there is also wide adoption of britney spears, and oprah.
asciilifeform: and so can others.
phf: but to your genuis of marketing point, not having even a decenarian math within flying distance, i don't really see a way out of that one. guys design their systems for the masses, say as much in public, and yet somehow there's wide adoption, because one has to eat
asciilifeform: the py one is a sad, sad joke
phf: c-sharp lambda is definitely first class, i'm trying to remember if it has weird restrictions like the python one
asciilifeform: the java and c-sharp lambdas are precisely this plastic grille.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << it is
asciilifeform: aha. and joseph smith thought about marketing very carefully, really beat the shit off the other zombie cults of his time and prior
phf: to be abcl would've benefited greatly from making their java ffi as nice as the one in clojure. that is of course a marketing problem, and that's something hicky thought about very carefully
asciilifeform: they have the classical ustard affliction of 'we are the greatest people, we are the greatest empire, nothing like us ever was'
gribble: Welcome! | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/>; What is Coq? | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/what-is-coq>; A tutorial by Mike Nahas | The Coq Proof Assistant - Inria: <https://coq.inria.fr/tutorial-nahas>
asciilifeform: (for n00bz: it ~is~ called 'coq', i shit thee not)
asciilifeform: phf: if the halting theorem were actually taught as serious business, the coq-suckers would eventually have to fellate their pistols.
phf: mod6: it's not clear at this point which school will bring sufficient clarity to this kinds of questions, without paying much more attention to current industry fads. see the thread about mit and sicp. they might mention halting problem in one class, and then go talking about proofs in Cog (if you're lucky or unlucky depending on how you look at it) in the next, with no explicit connection between the two
mod6: is this also related to church-turing's paper surrounding the entscheidungsproblem?
asciilifeform: (turing's halting theorem is really a generalization of godel's incompleteness t.)
asciilifeform: (virtually any attempt reduces to the halting problem)
asciilifeform: the unfortunate thing is that there is not much that is mathematically provable in the general case about a program.
mod6: putting everything aside, really, I want a machine that will do stuff that is deterministic, mathematically provable.
mod6: thx for the link
phf: also mccarthy said a few times that lisp has not much to do with lambda calculus, he just completely misunderstood the papers (or rather was inspired by them)
asciilifeform: mod6: mr mold went and tried to derive a programming system from ski calc (isomorphic to lambda calc) and ended up with 'nock' and the rest.
mod6: i think for me, this is the allure of something like lambda calc.
mod6: im at the point of paranoia enough where if we can not write out our program mathemtically, mechanically, then there is some magic going on in there. and that freaks me out.
asciilifeform: (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor)
asciilifeform: just as i was just now walking past a lot full of american shitcarz, and finally realized why 'mustang' has plastic grille over the rear window.
phf: it's not really a secret why java, every time someone like alf starts talking about cogs in the machine the inevitable answer is "duh", that was the whole point, josling says as much in his early interviews, including the famous "at least we got them to grok gc"
mod6: WELL THEN BROSEPH, EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!
mod6: these guys are crazy. i have to bite holes in my tounge every day.
phf: if you're buying your schemes from supermarket, sure, but my point is that technique is available as part of the dictionary. can do a hybrid from there, i.e. compiled subtrate
asciilifeform: you typically don't get call/cc either
asciilifeform: but in some perverse cases (e.g., 'chicken') compiled to c, but then you lose eval
phf: actually there aren't many schemes that are interpreted, it's much more in vogue to compile them, since that's an easy thing to do
mod6: or are other common lisps actually compiled?
asciilifeform: jvm, for instance, does not support the sane error handling common lisp users are accustomed to.
phf: mod6: lisp is not always (and not usually) interpreted, i don't think there's anything wrong with targeting jvm, except for the fact that jvm itself is not good
asciilifeform: where they spew.
asciilifeform: or read the comments to my 2 articles
asciilifeform: but feel free to ask the aficionados.
asciilifeform: not only this, but 'omfg11111! i can sell lisp to the boss at the cube farm now, it will build to jvm, can mingle with java codez!11'
asciilifeform: mod6: similar to the old 'armed bear common lisp', except that it was written by a 'clever tricks' crackpot who added in ten truckloads of homegrown ustard idiocy
asciilifeform: mod6: some years ago, i attended a few meetings of a local clojurist society. ended up barfing and writing article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 (and sequel, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374 ) that ~still~ get flamez, and - until recently - were among the top google results for subj...
ben_vulpes: keep running into the most inane shit getting it running tho
mod6: hey, im just posting this here so we don't lost it -- this is from funk_ iirc, he never sent it to the list -- i'm told that it "works" but have never tested it myself: http://dpaste.com/2WTCSHV.txt
gernika: If asciilifeform ever accidentally ends up at the same hotel as a rails convention, I expect to see a lot of shattered teeth on the floor.
asciilifeform: and if they aren't in range - negrate.
jurov: "In my experience, software bloat almost always comes from smart, often the smartest, devs who are technically the most competent. Couple their abilities with a few narrowly interpreted constraints, a well-intentioned effort to save the day.."
phf: err, overflows, though float errors are another one
phf: like the attempts to teach type system about integer overfloats
phf: lisp's answer is given von neumann what's most flexible model, ada's answer is given von neumann how do we put enough constraints that there are runtime reliability guarantees
phf: fixed width natural numbers are implemented at bedrock, so in order to support anything else you have to create an abstraction, keep it consistent with the rest of language features, etc. so you either get overspecialized languages like apl (with their runtime costs) or monsters like haskell
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it has sharp edges but afaik it is the best we have short of massive-runtime-turd abominations like haskell.
mircea_popescu: yeah and other things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i didn't build the thing!1111
mircea_popescu: 2) why the fuck exactly do you think you can get 3 as 2+1 in "natural" space but you don't see that you get 4 as 2+1 in "even natural" space ?
mircea_popescu: and now it turns out that + and - are in the same exact situation.
trinque: davout: no way in hell I'd run such a thing without it involving the airgap dance.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447290 << the thing can work without a hot wallet at all, provided there's a reasonable duration to accomodate cashing out.
mats: thanks for all the fish
mircea_popescu: "While range specifications are very useful, they are also highly limited in their usefulness. Ada ranges must always be contiguous. This means that you cannot specify an integer data type of only even numbers, for instance. Even numbers are not contiguous."
mats: i initially started with ~15btc in my coinbr piggy a little more than two years ago, deposited another 15 a year later. today, i'm walking away with 60btc in profit and a 30btc stake in s.nsa
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain the concept of "contiguity" as seen in this ada spec discussion ?
mircea_popescu: "o noes, who will we sue when they turn out to be full of piss!"
mircea_popescu: i don't see hospitals using bags of "saline" that come with a "warning : not suitable for use" on them.
mircea_popescu: the thing clearly says "no guarantee not even for fitness to a particular purpose". if you use such items in your "safety engineering" you're liable.
asciilifeform: or functional requirements, poor design, or programming mistakes. The root cause of the hazards will be exposure of implementation-defined behaviors in a programming language. Who will the lawyers sue over the consequences of those hazards?'
asciilifeform: the new hardware will be received as a complete surprise by most users of the upgraded system and by their management. The surprise may be accompanied by hazardous events because of incorrect control of a safety critical system. People may be injured or die, the environment may be seriously damaged, and very expensive systems may be damaged or destroyed. The root cause of the hazards will not be po
asciilifeform: 'As a software safety engineer I find the implementation-defined aspects of C++ bit-fields to be very unsettling. A project may verify that its C++ bit-fields work as intended on a particular architecture, but when a technology refresh is performed in several years, there is no assurance that the C++ program will continue to work properly on the new hardware. The failure of the C++ program to run on
mircea_popescu: how the fuck are you going to introduce payment for, eg, deeds ? and if you do, how is it going to beat $pay deed.
mircea_popescu: and don't fucking start with the dc current scandal all over again!
davout: asciilifeform: no you don't it, so we can tip each other!!1
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you mean so that trinque has to build a castle around the server ?
asciilifeform: but why the fuck would you put a wallet in deedbot?!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman maybe by the time that's on the plate, we actually change in-game chat to gossipd.
davout: re a better specified auction deadline, i think it's best to precise it to "the end of wednesday the 6th of april, in whatever timezone this event happens last"
mircea_popescu: for one thing, those people are schmucks. but even if they weren't schmucks, not in wot.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well in game-stuff i ideally want to change the chat to irc, but hey.
mircea_popescu: i'd much rather have some separation between things.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-02-20.log.html#t16:14:05 << guy who did the #eulora logger / link reader / rss thing.
mircea_popescu: there was an irc channel auction system. it died.
davout: apperently, according to condesk it got shut down after a 15 btc theft
davout: asciilifeform: there was, a long time ago
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: was there ever a btctronic auction site ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
davout: ;;later tell pete_dushenski you have a point, i did not specify a timezone for "the end of wednesday the 6th of april"
davout: i'm pretty sure we'll look back five years from now and witness pretty much the same thing
mircea_popescu: check out the old timer convention.
PeterL: nafario asked me if I wanted to come to some conference to talk about how to use the thing
davout: nefario asked me if i wanted to write the thing
mircea_popescu: but the way mpoe happened was that basically i threw up the idea in chan and a bunch of the people then-active commented and so on.
mircea_popescu: i don't rightly recall what it was, and i'm not even sure i was yet keeping irc logs at the very early time all this happened.
mircea_popescu: davout yeah, was a guy active in 2011/2012 that then disappeared.
davout: he's in the mpex apparently
mircea_popescu: tbh, about as exciting as s.mg auctions lol. they always make my sunday.
mircea_popescu: funny, i was thinking the same thing.
mircea_popescu: for most of the land barely even had a census mechanism.