asciilifeform: in other lulz - https://archive.is/us9d8 -- purportedly - 'Decrypted content of eqgrp-auction-file.tar.xz' , 'Passphrase: CrDj"(;Va.*NdlnzB9M?@K2)#>deB7mN'
trinque: I've both read postgresql source, several other db turds, written own, extended pg and mucked about heavily in internals
phf: that still doesn't answer my question, but the question is at the core of my point. you don't read existing implementations, you don't attempt to write new implementations, you're ~using~ a system that does these things for you. so what is ~knowing~ in this case.
trinque: the re-implementor of modern computing doesn't dispense with these as "you didn't really need that"
phf: well, that wasn't a rhetorical question, i was interested. so the second question remains, what does knowing entail in this case
asciilifeform: meanwhile, elsewhere in the glorious monkey empire, https://archive.is/meEGA : 'A doctor trying to return home to his patients was dragged by his hands from an overbooked United Airlines (UAL.N) flight... Video of the incident posted to Twitter account @Tyler_Bridges shows three security officers huddling over the seated passenger, who appears to be an older Asian man, before dragging him on the floor.'
asciilifeform: After calling police, two officers took away the bars and gave them a receipt. ... A Northamptonshire Police spokesman said they could not comment “for operational reasons”.'
asciilifeform: in other lulz : https://archive.is/orEsB : 'Nick Mead, 55, discovered the five gold bars in the Russian T54/69 while restoring it to add to his collection of 150 military vehicles. He and mechanic Todd Chamberlain were filming themselves prising open the diesel tank in case they found munitions and needed to show it to bomb disposal crews. ... Instead, they pulled out the bars, weighing up to 12lb — 5kg — apiece.' and, wtf, '...
trinque: and in fact does; that's how the versioning works
phf: but i don't think you're even talking about cracking open the covers? so what does the knowing of these "exceptionally well" things entail?
phf: i'm not sure it's worthwhile to fetishize that quality either. if you attempt to write a db from scratch, postgresql internals is not the first place to look.
asciilifeform: and my contention is that 'replacing sql' is guaranteed to fail, the problem it solves is intrinsically braindamaged.
asciilifeform: the things winblows does exceptionally well also ~never come up in discussions by sane folx.
trinque: and I'd question the ability of anyone to replace it who didn't bother with that list of things which has fuck all to do with SQL
trinque: neither asciilifeform nor I did in particular cases due to practical tradeoffs of taking that time
trinque: and I agree with phf that my recourse is to write the thing I want
trinque: I don't criticize that he used it; I do all the time for lack of alternative which has the properties I want
trinque: asciilifeform did, so I didn't mind trying to help with that car wreck, having been in plenty of them myself
trinque: and not to use them
phf: ok, i guess we both know what the problem is. my solution is "study db related algorithms until you know enough to write a db", your solution, unless i misunderstand, seems to be "use an existing database a lot". i don't understand how learning, say, postgresql will get you from not knowing anything about db internal design to writing your own
phf: writing out each one of those concerns separately will teach you how to do it (or whether it can even be done, like with "atomic file system")
phf: the "glue" point is a strawman, because you don't know how i write my code. as far as problem/solution though
lobbes: I do come from the 'let the data speak for itself' school, so that makes sense to my limited understanding
trinque: the manager says... sure buddy
trinque: the database as (extremely poorly) implemented by sql rdbms is a generalization of the glue
trinque: that is a statement of the ~problem
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:37 phf: well, right, but you're not going to learn how to db by ~running~ databases. the whole "db" thing is an illusion anyway. rtrees, btrees, indexes, locking mechanisms, mvcc are all concrete algorithms, that you can implement in an adhoc manner for your task at hand and actually see how they work and what they do.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641431 << that this is wrong, and letting data access patterns ~between distinct algorithmic components of your system~ be built in ad-hoc manner destroys fits-in-head for the entire system
Framedragger: very unrelated old story for good humour in the forum: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Special-Delivery
phf: trinque: ~what is the point you're trying to make~
trinque: phf: I'm having the same experience over here!
shinohai: The only way to truly settle this matter is with swords.
phf: what ~is~ the point you're trying to make? you say things, i address them, you immediately move on to some other point
trinque: (he's going to claim I'm arguing for ubiquitous SQL again and miss the point)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:51 phf: most of them ~also use sql~. but likewise there's no such thing as "the database" there's also no such thing as "the database company uses to store its data". banks typically have 50-100 different large data stores, that serve different purposes
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641468 << what ends up being the problem in an environment with this many data stores?
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: so we agree that this thing called "database" is really distinct tools which some idiot welded together
phf: but on the other hand also anything involving objects of non-trivial topology (that's where you want object stores)
phf: but the reason that they don't all use sql, is because sql is really bad for certain narrow kinds of tasks and suboptimal for a slightly larger set of tasks
phf: most of them ~also use sql~. but likewise there's no such thing as "the database" there's also no such thing as "the database company uses to store its data". banks typically have 50-100 different large data stores, that serve different purposes
phf: and you're wrong as far "everyone uses sql11". merril lynch is famous for storing massive datasets in kdb. deutsche bank uses kdb as well as a handful of other datastores (i have some knowledge here), also two of the banks that i consulted for used object stores. that's just the projects that i consulted
trinque: my point was that the customer for the item has these requirements; what does the item which satisfies them begin to resemble?
trinque: phf: ah, then wasn't my intention
asciilifeform: because the flexibility has a price.
phf: trinque: you've asked a question, that i was about to answer, but it turned out to be a rhetorical question, that you then used as a platform to make a political point, yes
trinque: asciilifeform: ~whole point~ is what the implemented item would look like
trinque: phf: the data is political??
asciilifeform: if your operation seriously relies on the db, it implements custom db, from scratch, like the hft trading folks do.
trinque: that is the standard, not some piece of software
trinque: over *massive* dataset which *is* relational regardless of the db you choose
trinque: no, consider the bundle of questions that enterprise (oil firm, whatever) must ask itself on an ongoing basis
asciilifeform: it is genuinely the worst possible argument in support of anything.
trinque: they don't have a billion of anything
asciilifeform: and the year before that -- somebody who used... hypercard
phf: another alternative to doing the sql way is column stores (as an aside allegro cache is really more of a column store), where something like kdb is going to be a reference (the apl approach to databasing in general, of mmaping files with fixed size entries that you can offset into).
trinque: no disagreement there.
phf: allegro cache is actually a lot closer to how btcbase does it, than the postgresql way. internally the two are very different. if you treat both as "a database" you're not going to learn anything
asciilifeform: as it is, sql db is a very effectively opaque black box, full of liquishit, that reliably generates full employment for millions of 'perlists' who memorized the trivia.
phf: well, right, but you're not going to learn how to db by ~running~ databases. the whole "db" thing is an illusion anyway. rtrees, btrees, indexes, locking mechanisms, mvcc are all concrete algorithms, that you can implement in an adhoc manner for your task at hand and actually see how they work and what they do.
trinque: still stand there.
trinque: I've said before the thing needs to be split into many specific tools
trinque: can't shitbag the entire notion of "db" and expect to do that correctly
trinque: phf: I'm speaking from the perspective that this data storage thing eventually gets solved in the republic.
phf: trinque: my point is ~why do you do what you do~. there's no hard pressing imperative to freak out, which is the bezzle way of things anyway.
asciilifeform: i have actual work to do, and do not have time to babysit the process all day, every day.
asciilifeform: it will start loading again for other people when Framedragger stops autowgetting it.
Framedragger: but that's the last time i brought this up. i wanted to clarify that nobody's hammering it.
Framedragger: i'm running wget *by hand*. wtf. you expose a href on the site. i try to get it. it fails. ?
asciilifeform: what's the 'consecutive' mean if not hammering.
trinque: phf: you can avoid the point as you choose. "there is a better land and we'll be there someday; don't eat til we get there, best food on earth, they have." has sunk many companies, and many people
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641384 << not to rain on your parade but -- without any currently active crawl process, i've tried to wget /sadmods by hand just now, just to have a single copy to serve on the cached site. so far two 504 in a row
trinque: which is fine, but I assume you're not over there running btcbase on allegro cache
asciilifeform: the site is up trinque
trinque: so then your site is going to be down in teh meantime because of a combo of prior technical decisions and present political ones
asciilifeform: what part of 'the suggested fixed require full rewrite' is hard to understand ?
trinque: this conveniently missing the point is shameful on you both.
phf: ascii actually can criticize postgresql from the position of understanding. knowing intricacies of psql is not knowledge (rtrees, caching, etc.), it's trivia ("you have to turn lever 3 and depress button Y"). ascii knows what he needs to express, but he can't express it directly, because he's running against architectural constraints of his tool. from that perspective a general "databases are shit" is an entirely valid perspective.
asciilifeform: all of the constructive suggestions thus far ( from trinque et al ) require full rewrite.
trinque: nobody's forcing him to use it; now that he has one, I've made a few suggestions to lessen the pain
trinque: I think it's dishonorable to prattle on in propaganda mode when there are plenty of statements to be made about why the thing's shit from the position of understanding it.
phf: tmsr work is primarily defined by its voluntary nature, if i had to do things same way i do it at the office i wouldn't bother. ascii doesn't know intricacies of psql from his day job, and i think it's cruel and inhuman to make him study psql ~as part of tmsr work~. it's not the kind of know how you get to learn by sitting down with a cup of tea and a large printout..
trinque: yes phf; this is the only work I've ever done
phf: trinque is the resident psql guru, he managed to wire his 50 request lisp process to a postgresql database
trinque: there are many reasons to hate rdbms. "cannot *at all* run something like phuctor" is not one of them
asciilifeform: trinque: 'there is a right-also, and asciilifeform is a moron' is not a political statement ?
trinque: are we doing the "I used it wrong; this proves my political views" thread again?
asciilifeform: phf: i've been searching for how to lose the db, for years now.
phf: they laughed at me when i said btcbase doesn't use a database, who's laughin now
BingoBoingo: Phuctor, in addition to.. you know its stated mission, is possibly the greatest intelligence gathering exercise so far in "single box vs. hordes" problem
asciilifeform: Framedragger: they're zombies in the sense that there were a thousand+ of the liquishit processes whereas there never has any business being > 1 or 2.
Framedragger: oh but like, *active* requests? the use of the word "zombie" implied to me that the web requests themselves may have already died. okok.
asciilifeform: they're normal requests.
asciilifeform: i know what the stale queries are, already.
Framedragger: the following should output stale queries:
Framedragger: asciilifeform: does the new-factor/key-adder write to db under a different db user than the db reader which reads data for the web backend?
Framedragger: (there's a `pg_terminate_backend(process_id)` which can be fed rows from `pg_stat_activity`, just fyi)
asciilifeform: there's a megatonne of zombie postgres liquishit hanging.
Framedragger: have you checked if maybe google army is attacking you now that you've changed the robots policy?..
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what was the reasoning behind your call that replacing trb's boostisms with c++11isms was an assault on grandfathers pistols? trb mustest compile with old gcc's?
shinohai: https://twitter.com/theonevortex/status/851439547749548034 "Greatest journalists in crypto"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu is in high spirits, must be nuts deep in something other than cpp
ben_vulpes: oh is that how the world works
mircea_popescu: real men just goto where the closure is!
ben_vulpes: whatever, does not matter in the slightest.
ben_vulpes: what even is the point of programming languages that don't in2 closures
ben_vulpes: you know, before calling the unary predicate
ben_vulpes: christ what even is the point of a unary predicate in a language without closures
BingoBoingo: After substantial effort to boil out the poisons. Ain't nobody got time for that.
shinohai: Older folks go nuts over the shit here though, eat it like spinach.
shinohai: I've never tried personally. The woods behind my house however are chock full of Phytolacca decandra.
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> There are only two seasons in Georgia, slightly chilly and sweltering, humid summer << Too cold for citrus, too hot for legumes and cole crops
mircea_popescu: why did i think you liverd in like, southern spain
shinohai: There are only two seasons in Georgia, slightly chilly and sweltering, humid summer
mircea_popescu: they fix Ncompounds
BingoBoingo: Technique can be adapted to the lawn. Sub tilling with overseeding root crops, and instead of glyphosate burn down with 2,4-D and substitute last tilling with patience
BingoBoingo: Tomatoes also go well eated whole like an apple so long as consumed no further than 100 feet from the vine
shinohai: I have no nearby monasteries unfortunately .... there is a farm in this little place called Ellijay nearby that makes decent goat cheese.
phf: there's a benedictine monastery in bangalore where make italian style cheese. considering how bad cheese is otherwise in the country, i'm contemplating making a pilgrimage to bangalore just to see how they do, next time i'm there
asciilifeform spends moar on cheese than typical homo redditicus does on rent. with quite variable results, in these savage lands.
mircea_popescu: anyway, today watched sunset by the pool, with dog and woman. dog is a friendly pitbull, woman has nice tits. there could be worse fates.
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641243 <<< Hope it was much better cheese than the floating in ice, triple-wrapped variety from a few days previous.
mircea_popescu: i evidently wasn't in the right place.
mircea_popescu: i tell you people - do not live with the plainsdwellers, for they are retarded and eat shit.
mircea_popescu: UNTIL I HAD THE FUCKING SENSE TO GO ON A HILL.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's realy no more to it.
phf: chukcha brings his novel to a su publishing dept. the editor reads it and goes "you know, you ought to read some classics, pushkin, turgenev, etc." chukcha goes "naw, chukcha is a writer, not a reader"
asciilifeform: so far i follow the logic..
mircea_popescu: disconsidering this fundamental in any manner opens the chasm of hell, in all its presentation from evil to insanity.
mircea_popescu: anyway, imo the principal point of the discussion is that knowledge, any knowledge, enacts a partition upon the world. this is the only difference - chucka and man are distinguished not by skin color, not by anything else but the overpowering fact that chuka doesn't know what to do with the rtg ; or with pushkin ; or with etcetera.
mircea_popescu: i didn't perceive this cheifdom in the chief characters. mebbe my antennae too blunt, but who ? how ?
asciilifeform: which is sorta opposite, as i understand, to your hypothesis
asciilifeform currently brain-melting over the total and airtight lack of any public data re beta-luminescence of lanthanide-strontium aluminate vs metal-doped zinc sulphide
trinque: dunno what's hard about the notion that look, you do not get computers until you have both the leadership category and engineering category maxed on your character
asciilifeform: who exactly, in mircea_popescu's model, are the monkeys ?
asciilifeform: and when the necessary transistors were finally ~free, they went to tlb cache instead so that winblowz could run 5% faster.
mircea_popescu: because yes the monkeys could win if not enough to eat, BUT you know this because there's 12 starved men.
mircea_popescu: other than rms.
asciilifeform: which imho is what happened. environment could not sustain the man.
mircea_popescu: "i think the whole charade is a sickening display, personally."
mircea_popescu: "who do you think will win, mr 13, the team with two guys and monkeys or the team with three guys and monkeys ?"
asciilifeform: the monkeys, as discussed in old thread, could easily win, if there is not enough for men to eat on the island.
mircea_popescu: at the time they did this, the world split. there were the people who built the "something quite like a proper comp", on one side. there were the people who did not so build, on the other side. you see this ?
asciilifeform: (they eventually resorted to 'credit card' and ended up simply making a titanic black hole for entire ~industry~ to fall into, when it finally imploded)
asciilifeform: or live long enough on 'credit card' to live to see the cheap-enough transistor.
asciilifeform: they built something quite like a proper comp.
mircea_popescu: and no, it's not an ~exact~ dozen, either.
mircea_popescu: im not capable nor interested in specifying. fact remains - a dozen dudes either did something ro didn't do something. if they did something we can discuss the history of the thing they did and what it says about them ; otherwise, we can not.
mircea_popescu: but that is not the sense contemplated in context.
asciilifeform: my contention is simply that they failed to ~resolve~ their problem , in the sense of achieving item#2 from my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=305 essay
mircea_popescu: phf im starting to understand the problem though. here it is : engineer will not consider inconvenient problems. NO MATTER WHAT. that is why he's an engineer : because paradigm made him a personal promise.
asciilifeform: phf: a bolix-style machine that -- hypothetically - could have cost-competed with the 'i can't believe it's not butter' state of the art, would imho count as 'resolve'
phf: there's only one computer asciilifeform acknowledges as "resolved", and that's the computer built by asciilifeform. i suspect similar dynamic was at the root of smbx/lmi
mircea_popescu: you will note however that ~all communication~ rests on hallucination in the sense here contemplated. and we're right back to 4->5.
asciilifeform: they took a serious technological risk - and lost, like dirigible; rather than won, like steamboat.
mircea_popescu: aite, then i guess it can't epxlained what the people invovled were stupid for having not done.
mircea_popescu: look, there's no crevice here to slither into. either you grant "they did" or else you admit they didn't do anything. pick one.
asciilifeform: the trouble is that this is how tech actually advances
asciilifeform: the analogy is not a whim of asciilifeform's, it is quite exact -- what bolix et al did, was a 'stretch' of the tech of the time, quite near its breaking point
mircea_popescu: you'll have to pick a door (for the needs of this conversation only)
asciilifeform: bolix box would then be me262.
asciilifeform: say it was tried in ww2, and then not again.
mircea_popescu: so then why do you deny ?
mircea_popescu: then gimme something.
asciilifeform: what, exactly, were -- in mircea_popescu's view -- these people 'fucking stupid' for having not done ?
asciilifeform: even 40+ yrs later, and to quasi-serious student of the subject, imho it is not clear who -- if anyone -- was 'true king'.
mircea_popescu: except for them being not fucking stupid.
asciilifeform: the rest -- with someone else.
asciilifeform: so off he went, with subset of the possible participants.
asciilifeform: let's say for sake of argument that greenblatt was 'the true king.' he had no mechanism for somehow forcing the others to come along.
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as an actual dispute.
mircea_popescu: when you're the only twelve guys on monkey island you don't fucking disagree. because there's nothing to disagree ~about~. because there can't be.
mircea_popescu: the time for "debates" is when you're installed in power and are preparing to withdraw the power from the plebs. you create a trappings-of-power artefact through the magical working of dialectics, heap it upon them in exchange for the actual thing and move on. that's when you do "disputes".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the circumstance ? this isn't a given iyo ?
mircea_popescu: it's on the level of "great monk died - syphilis". come da fuck on. have better problems!
asciilifeform: if 'act rationally' somehow means 'pick a fuhrer! use haruspex if you gotta!' then none of them 'acted rationally', no.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving this hot coal for a while also, consider THE FUCKING INDIGNITY. you're telling me the dozen was split up by a convenient application of... a socialist marote ? same thing sunk lisp as the international ?!
mircea_popescu: this equality doesn't hold. it's not a matter "we don't know". we know what the environment constraints are, and we do not care what their internal processing is. if they fail to act rationally they did it randomly.
asciilifeform: not knowing any of them in person, i cannot say why some went with one, and others -- other, and third -- with no one, and into the void. presumably agreed with n, or g, or neither.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the rest just happened to fall into s or lmi randomly as the wind blew ?
asciilifeform: ti corp was not even part of this game, they did not hire -- afaik -- any of the original designers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my understanding was that greenblatt and noftsker had serious disagreement re how to actually do business. (noftsker favoured external capital, and founded the -- temporarily -- successful symbolics co; greenblatt -- the very soon dead lmi, and believed in 'lift by bootstraps', no external capital.)
mircea_popescu: holy shit who thinks like this and why do they.
mircea_popescu: the only reason mit even exists in this picture is because the dozen was "omfg, we DID figure it out, now quick, find someone TO PROTECT US FROM OUR HAVING FIGURED IT OUT!!1"
mircea_popescu: they did a very strict anti-a and anti-b. why
asciilifeform: then, quite unlike now, new type of comp had to be made by hand from ttl chips -- few gates each; and connected with semi-reliable wrap wiring. it was quite impossible to offload this to 'brute labour', you had to intimately understand how the thing works in order to debug in any way.
mircea_popescu: phf this part is fine. now, why did they fail to a) band togetgher and b) control, deliberately, the product.
mircea_popescu: anyway, in the above retelling, the 4->5 transition is the coup the grace. they couldn't "follow" each other ~because~, in this view, they were bereft of sufficient bandwith to in any sense communicate. so they couldn't, like, end up with all the same one substitute cuntcap.
phf: pre-symbolics the "theorems" were "how do i computer" in general. those guys weren't playing around with custom fpga in their garage that they failed to sell. they were basically figuring out how to build a von neumann machine that can do things, which they did
mircea_popescu: im not sure that's even discussed, here. what theorems are involved in handmaking symbolics gear
asciilifeform: phf: i was offering to mircea_popescu that not everyone is born to walk around robbing banks to fund hardware manufacture, or 'burning boston' to extirpate 'socialism', some folks were born to theorems. but mircea_popescu won't have it -- either banks, and burning, or untermenschen, apparently.
mircea_popescu: they all ended up with random substitute hymens and that's the last time anyone heard of any of them.
mircea_popescu: 1. a dozen mentally retarded girls were afraid of their own cunts ; 2. so much so as to need to be 50 before they'd finally deflower ; 3. except they did it in such a manner as to replace the insulatory function of that with various other ersatz-hymens created out of material collected in the environment ; 4 but because they were mentally retarded no possiblity of meaningful communication was open to them and so 5. therefore
phf: mircea_popescu: i think people in question weren't even thinking in terms asciilifeform is using. they are all deep academia, without external guiding force thye end up recreating windows interface 10 years too late.
mircea_popescu: let me retell the history of early computing.
asciilifeform: he took its remains to canada, and bamboozled their government for years, pretending to make 'french translator machine'
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 22:37 mircea_popescu: ~any 16 yo figures out her chief order of business is trashing the damend thing, why's it take moon 50 years ?
mircea_popescu: market is not weighing machine to start with. it gets there, but it starts as something else. derping about "justifying commercially" is the EXACT equivalent of not talking to girl for nerd reasons.
asciilifeform: yes, some folx are friends with chumpatronicist, or bank robber (stalin et al), who will give them a little dough out of whatever private reason of his own.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see ? where did THE INVESTMENT!111 come from!
asciilifeform: pixie dust dun buy megatonne of ic. not today, not then.
mircea_popescu: this is not exactly correct, which is why i linked the article i linked.
mircea_popescu: groupon, its exact clone 5 years ago, meanwhile imploded. where did the billions come to make ~that~ particular iteration of nothing whatsoever into "biggest ipo ever!11"
mircea_popescu: how did the investment come considewring there wasn't anythning there besides "we'll try to win on execution without a clue or a GED, against people with money and significant entrenchment" ?
asciilifeform: either translate, or summarize ?
asciilifeform: from where was the money to come ?
asciilifeform: the lispm was a quite audacious and expensive project, and very difficult to justify commercially without at least a set of functioning machines and well-developed soft
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dun think teh theory ever went in the vein of "ubermenschen (exact clones of mircea_popescu , presumably ) and untermenschen ('socialists' or anyone who substantially differs psychologically from mircea_popescu )" eh ?
mircea_popescu: ~any 16 yo figures out her chief order of business is trashing the damend thing, why's it take moon 50 years ?
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving this hot coal for a moment -- why the everloving fuck did it take them so long to lose virginity! yes, EVENTUALLY moon "finally we take this tech private". but how fucking unobvious can it be that mit is exactly the equivalent of hymen, there to insulate girl from control of her own cunt ?
asciilifeform: the reality, even if mircea_popescu doesn't subscribe to it, is that there may very well be more than two types of people alive, and not simply ubermenschen (exact clones of mircea_popescu , presumably ) and untermenschen ('socialists' or anyone who substantially differs psychologically from mircea_popescu )
mircea_popescu: amusingly, apparently everyone there knew this, too. "he's no captain, he's just a dude with a small penis who figures the world owns him reparations for it, so captaining will work by itself"
mircea_popescu: why the fuck, what, brains dun work ?
mircea_popescu: so your proposition is that engineers are cursed by the gods in that they can't follow each other, gotta follow a different kinda guy and if they don't get lucky to find one will just symbolics all over the place ?
asciilifeform: the one who said 'i could sell equally this, or canned fish'
asciilifeform: what was the d00d's name
asciilifeform: symbolics co. was actually illustration of mircea_popescu's essay re the hanna barbara cartoon thing
mircea_popescu: why didn't moon follow knight, then. wtf is going on.
mircea_popescu: so why the split ?
asciilifeform: knight (inventor of the machine, and designer/hand-builder of almost all of the early iron) was also 'followable', he ended up at lmi.
asciilifeform: why there was >1 power in 16th c italy. why not everyone simply in florence, lol.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin-assets split sold with the rest. why didn't moon's corp ?
mircea_popescu: possibly. why didn't it sell with the rest ?
asciilifeform: and whatever socialisms dwelled there