mircea_popescu: well running 1mn times over 1mb is not "bettering" the mb
asciilifeform: and would not reply to asciilifeform's or other (iirc BingoBoingo ) attempts to find why
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 01:06 asciilifeform: ( the grade outputted by the 'hungrier' tests appears to be in direct proportion to sample size, and very little else; and FG, /dev/urandom, various fashionable prng, intel's mysterymeatrng, and several others, all exhibit same effect, 100% pass begins somewhere b/w 1-3GB sample size. )
asciilifeform: hey, it's a hose from the stable's piss trough -- but at least it doesn't block !!
asciilifeform: they sure do!111
asciilifeform: 'Sources need to be statistically assessed. The quality of the entropy being produced needs to be estimated so that enough can be released to properly seed the RNG. The dieharder and TESTU01 suites are good but they both require prohibitively large amounts of random data to operate. NIST's SP800-90B tests seem to be statistically sound and have manageable data requirements....' << didjaknow!
asciilifeform is quite looking forward to the frenzied butthurtz of the shitlibs folx when 'p' is released.
asciilifeform: 'we are talking about it, THEREFORE RELEVANT!1' etc
mircea_popescu: "oh, but the only reason i even discuss that generazl point is to try and sell you cheetos"
asciilifeform: or even to promote the notion that openssl has whatever kind of future.
mircea_popescu: opposite i mean to the general. like "making rng more complex is silly -- here, use tyhis broken one"
mircea_popescu: this "arguing in the general for opposite particulars" byzantine "wisdom" ie stupidtity is just about all us by mass now
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 16:54 asciilifeform: all i solidly know of the tptacek fella is his reaction to phuctor.
asciilifeform: beloved sage ideologue of the schneierism komyoonity, author of gems like https://archive.is/ootJi
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-28#1675879 << ftr tptacek is the infamous 'USE /DEV/URANDOM !!' d00d
mircea_popescu: the hole* lmao
mircea_popescu: it's the whole through which "the world doth not belong to you" goes into pantsuit skull.
mircea_popescu: but in any case : the socialist rot starts with permitting mothers to go apeshit near their daughter's bare cunt. the swamp drain starts there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, plenty of kids today suckle two mothers as it were.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-09 01:44 mircea_popescu: ~if i am~ a drug dealer and i burn down your house, you'll what ? file a police report ? go on the local news network with a teary eyed "no one could have predicted that if i get pissy with people who break the law for a living i might end up with a burned down house" ?
mircea_popescu: how, specifically, it goes varies by case. very often, at least in my youth, it was "that mp, he's such a great guy, not like the other vagabonds you keep bringing home!!1". ie, they self-repressed.
mircea_popescu: i'll say this much : that never in my history, with ANY woman, was it the case the mother didn't go some variant of apeshit and i repressed her into irrelevancy.
mircea_popescu: this is the important point here : that you're not attracted to the daugther's cunt. god knows there is naught more abundant on this earth. BUT you are to repress the mother into political irrelevancy.
mircea_popescu: the charge of the bacteriologist may well be that, but entirely different item, a charge.
mircea_popescu: i dunno dood, old women. who the fuck understands the mechanism of their trying to ruin the world.
mircea_popescu: so, the young woman wants to individuate, gives her cunt to male, old woman / mother goes apeshit, male protects cuntlet from her mother. this is how it goes.
mircea_popescu: let me explain to you how the duty of fucking works, because you're perhaps unaware.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-23 18:15 asciilifeform: js-of-mp: because the wrongmusic plays not at the bar, but permanently on her face..
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 14:38 asciilifeform: soooo asciilifeform was taking a morning walk and saw a sight straight out of a mircea_popescu article. teenage chick standing in doorway, her mother (?) packing something into car, in front yard. chick then lifts her shirt and reveals naked cunt, and smiles. mother goes apeshit, screaming in, i think, portuguese, even now, i can almost hear it through open window.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-28#1675902 << use the slut ; that's what she's there for.
asciilifeform: i have not only, believe, a sewing machine here, but other power tools actuated with pedals. but see the thread.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 11:23 jurov: asciilifeform: didja look into sewing machine pedals, btw? they seem to be designed solidly, for all-day use
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-28#1675869 <<< this is not a bad idea on the face, get an old singer or w/e. i might've even suggested it way back when. they do have a lot of inertia thop
mircea_popescu: sina : that's how this stuff goes, and wehy someone biting bullet and writing an impl, even if he writes it in php, is worth it. was deliberately demonstrated with the fabulous hash function, and generally.
sina: mircea_popescu: mornin. I rejigged the gossipthing. I think what I have now reflects more closely what was discussed earlier. however I also think the spec vastly differs so may be worthwhile adding a disclaimer to the existing one or writing an entirely new one
mod6: anyway, that was the only thing really with python. most of it seems fine.
mod6: it got me, way back in the day.
asciilifeform: certainly a lulzgem, to see creatures step out of the pages of mircea_popescu and into meat
mod6: sina: there's a snippet of its use in asciilifeform's V, detailed in ben_vulpes's blog: http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system
asciilifeform: soooo asciilifeform was taking a morning walk and saw a sight straight out of a mircea_popescu article. teenage chick standing in doorway, her mother (?) packing something into car, in front yard. chick then lifts her shirt and reveals naked cunt, and smiles. mother goes apeshit, screaming in, i think, portuguese, even now, i can almost hear it through open window.
sina: but do prefer strongly typed langs after knocking something together
sina: it made me think about how I pretty much default to it for most problems above the complexity threshold of single line bash things
sina: I was thinking about the latest iteration which is much simpler, I think I might try and convert the TCP bit to UDP tomorrow
shinohai: I can assure you that pic isn't sanctioned by the vatican at all
sina: or at least those that have been cast from the church in disgrace! :P
sina: I prefer atheists myself
asciilifeform: ( recently appointed minister of something or other )
asciilifeform: apparently in usg also there are 'untouchable' folx.
asciilifeform: 'On June 22, 2017, CNN.com published a story connecting Anthony Scaramucci with investigations into the Russian Direct Investment Fund. That story did not meet CNN's editorial standards and has been retracted. Links to the story have been disabled. CNN apologizes to Mr. Scaramucci.'
asciilifeform: sewing machine ( and other power tool ) trigger pedals, if you think about it, indeed sometimes are used 'all day', but very different pattern from hypothetical keyboardpedal. they do long strokes.
jurov: asciilifeform: didja look into sewing machine pedals, btw? they seem to be designed solidly, for all-day use
sina: FWIW, what I have now is also nothing like the spec on trilema.com :P
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a valid (1 more message)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-11 00:22 asciilifeform: when whole thing is excel -- the 60 y.o. buffett at the top, theoretically understands the flow.
PeterL: from old thread: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-11#1641818 << where I work, we do stuff in excel, and every spreadsheet gets printed along with a copy of the formula view and these go together through a data audit
sina: ok for real time to vegetate now, enjoy the day all, I will spend some time on rejigging gossipdthing later and probably be back with more dumb questions at that point
sina: makes sense, you only just made it to fire, still another 7000 years before GPS :D :P
sina: ha that is interesting, but the ikea thing is just a $5 polished metal bowl that has been setting stuff in peoples houses on fire
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks/
sina: Chernobyl is running on manual monitoring after their systems got hit!
sina: OH YEAH, going back to the ransomware that hit Maersk
mircea_popescu: were you here for the "solar power" hax / lulz ?
sina: so it can go inside the "crunchy on outside, soft inside" networks
sina: majority of infections have been in Ukraine, there are screenshots of lots of Ukranian stuff (grocery store terminals, train stations, etc)
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 00:18 Framedragger: btw maersk (some related ports) is down due to new "ransomware" (orange website says it's the same nsa "eternalblue" windows vuln)
asciilifeform: 'that ain't another pigeon, idiot , it's yerself'
asciilifeform: in the early days
mircea_popescu: do you know how many soviets yelled at the television set ?
mircea_popescu: i don't want to grind myself by the measure of some 9.60 an hour mexicans in a kitchen somewhere.
mircea_popescu: see, because if she is too slow, i don't just SAY she's too slow. she fixes it. and if she dun fix it fast enough i got whips to help along. what's the gps do ? it doesn't afford you any agency towards the pizzeria. yet you're wartching. so what do you do ? you turn inward, educate ~yourself~.
mircea_popescu: computer pseudoscience may be the only engineering discipline in which the ancient solutions actually are better.
mircea_popescu: aite, watch teh gps like it means something then!!!
sina: the pizza doesn't even exist, you just say "yo, make pizza" and flour assembles itself into dough, tomatos become paste, basil grinds itself
sina: mircea_popescu: my perspective is that I am just trying to implement what appears to be an interesting spec. for the reason of being interested in implementing that spec. so when I ask for tmsrthing clarification, it is just in terms of spec, not in terms of "making a thing" ...if that makes sense
mircea_popescu: my pizza just takes the my saying "yo, make pizza!"
sina: the future is not all bad. I order pizza and can see its current progress in the store and GPS tells me its location en route
mircea_popescu: sina the problem with the non-tmsr things is that they are undependable. in the complete sense of that term : temporally, functionally, you name it.
sina: does he in an explosion of shit as he sits on the toilet?
asciilifeform: this is roughly analogous situation to the daily life of tmsr software folx
sina: I mean I *can* go off and do my own thing, but then I am making a sinathing not a tmsrthing
asciilifeform: there was an old sf tale, maybe 1940s, about a d00d in the Evil Future who is sentenced to death , but 'in house arrest', is put in a seemingly normal flat where common household objects are boobytrapped
mircea_popescu: this is the root of the divergence so far, so not a bad reference. encountering a problem, sina tends to seek the "correct" dependency to bake in.
asciilifeform: then when i say 'timestamps not produced by yourself are promisetronic' it will immediately click in your brain.
mircea_popescu: notice how it's not even POSSIBLE for the "same" message to be delivered via gossipd. for purely quantic reasons.
sina: ordering/conflict resolution is left up to the operator
asciilifeform: ('timestamp' has no factual meaning outside of hardware on your desk. and even there - 'fuzzy')
asciilifeform: sina: think also through the implications of 'no clock'. suddenly, chronological ordering is nontrivial.
mircea_popescu: not "it won't work" but rather "will it be worth working"
mircea_popescu: the problem with it, once ammended for the sign issue, was not exactly technical, more in terms of how expensiuve it is
asciilifeform: btw note that 'decrypt mode lighthouse' is deedbot-like, the answerer proves that he holds one of p1,...,pN keys. rather than one in particular.
asciilifeform: ('come back with the plaintext' of course means that you, e.g,, gimme a hash H(R + salt), or the like, not literally exposing it for world!)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah, damn. is the point to prove to B that A holds A's key at time t? i feel dumb
asciilifeform: sina: to get a window to speak to me, you come back with the plaintext of a recent R. proving that you are one of p1,...pN.
Framedragger: if incoming message is *not signed*, then i understand - it sets a fixed horizon in terms of how much you can spam.
Framedragger: and if the main work is in checking signature, how does a "could not have practically come into existence before you broadcast S" help with regards to DoS?
sina: <+asciilifeform> Framedragger: because not signing but decrypting << I am not sure I understand this. Why is it decrypting? Considering everyone has the plaintext from broadcasts
Framedragger: asciilifeform: but the main work by the receiving peer is in checking the signature of the other peer anyway (besides decrypting the message itself), no?
asciilifeform: and disbelieve in the possibility of accurate synced clocks.
asciilifeform: sina: didja read the clocks thread ?
asciilifeform: i.e. a signed(S) could not have practically come into existence before you broadcast S, if the latter is a long rng turd
sina: and send them at will?
sina: asciilifeform: if the challenges are being broadcast by the lighthouse in the clear, and all the peers are storing N of them, can't evilguy X just encrypt all of them?
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between my client showing alf as "online" and my client being built on the concept of sessions.
mircea_popescu: the idea was to report to the operator, "We have link with x". but conceptually, sessions as a fundamental building block of comms, are not used.
Framedragger: CONFUSE THE ENEMY
sina: this clarification is much appreciated, I do think I can rework what I've got to fit the above model
sina: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ III. Gossipd will receive inbound connectionsvii from identified clientsviii and on the basis of that identification produce an encrypted challenge string, which constitutes its response. If the other party responds with the proper challenge string, the connection is established ; otherwise it is dropped.
sina: because the blogpost has a challenge/response thingo
sina: mircea_popescu: ok that makes sense, you should consider updating the blogpost :P
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: well you did say "whenever operator feels like it, keys get nuked." (i guess that's not the same, tho)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: gotta distinguish mircea_popescu's algo from the MB or so of asciilifeform's commentz re same
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah, then i confused things by way of saying that "challenge-response needs to be ditched in gossipd model". hmm. i did think that the two items are not conceptually separable anymore
mircea_popescu: sina so where's a session in there ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly. nmot that i'm against further exploring the lighthouse thing, but gotta be separate item for nao.
mircea_popescu: if the operator of B opts to relay, at t5 various nodes will receive a P.?j
mircea_popescu: if the operator of B opts to respond, at t4 A will receive a P'.Ai
mircea_popescu: at t2, B is free to decrypt or not decrypt P.B1. it is supposed to make this decision on the basis of B1 and whatever other data it uses to make such a decision.
mircea_popescu: let's go through the process in detail.
sina: mircea_popescu: while I appreciate the validty of issues about sessions, challenge/response dictates there must be something akin to a session, even if that isn't the most precisely fitting term
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah lighthouse discussion does complicate matters, the fact of the matter is, it's the only current (written) alternative to DoS-prone traditional challenge-response (A asks B to plz send challenge, A then response to B with that challenge), within gossipd universe
mircea_popescu: there's no peer discovery as a gossipd function ; at all times it knows already all the peers it will ever know. in lawyer speak this is called "never ask a question you don't know the answer to."
mircea_popescu: the only way for A and B to be introduced, outside of the grandfatherly, A fucks B and they exchange bits of paper, is C tells A about B and B about A.
Framedragger: (in fact maybe that's an important point as well: lighthouse shits at a fixed rate; there is a discrete amount of auth strings which can be used. i guess this is obvious, i'm slow)
mircea_popescu: no peers introduce themselves though. at all.
Framedragger: situation is different if the point is for peer A to newly introduce self to B. then (sina) "unpredictable lighthouse" is important because it sets a limit to how many auth strings can be used.
mircea_popescu: prolly should separate the re-discussing of that from the guy trying to comprehend the spec
mircea_popescu: you know, the lighthouse idea, while an idea, didn't actually get included.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:45 Framedragger: sina: fwiw (he can speak for himself but to save you time), asciilifeform does not like sessions [ever|anymore], and considers them ugly beasts which won't have a place in his gossipd bed
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-28#1675565 << the problem with the concept of a "session" is that it attempts to link machine state to world state. this is a very tenuous proposition, and the fundamental reason why sessionificatyion of (the correctly designed) stateless http protocol failed for 30 years straight and will continue to fail forever.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:28 sina: asciilifeform: can you clarify, *all* comms? when I was implementing my first pass at encrypting comms yest, I found that at least the very first message when a peer connects as a client would be plaintext, i.e. "hi I'm A", otherwise the "server" would need to enumerate all its keys to find if it knows the peer?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:19 sina: in current model, operator can write a message and claim it is from anyone and "publish" it to their own message store. when peers connect, the messages since last seen are delivered, each encrypted with a peer-pair unique RSA key. so as the message "progresses" between peers it gets encrypted, then decrypted and stored in each peers message store in plaintext
Framedragger: sina: right, re future, i didn't make sense there
sina: unless all responses are identical for all peers, which would make them plaintext
sina: also I can't see how the model can be *completely* stateless, there will always be some kind of minimal session which is "hi, I'm A" followed by a response tailored to A
Framedragger reading how asciilifeform described the packets, if at all, because forgot
sina: I'm not sure I understand how you can craft packets in advance if they need to be signed
sina: Framedragger: really appreciate your patience, I get the feeling asciilifeform would be shouting at me again by now
Framedragger: let me recall why that is super important lol; but the unpredictability of the auth strings coming from lighthouse is important
Framedragger: because you can predict the future of such a lighthouse, hence craft any number of packets in advance
sina: why not just sign the current UTC timestamp
sina: another probably dumb question
Framedragger: well i guess it's the same thing, kinda
Framedragger: yeah, so this avoid replay but also sets a limit to how much DoS exposure you have (one of the limits, at least)
Framedragger: (btw the challenge strings may be in something else than plaintext, all depends on lighthouse and medium)
sina: but why can't A just sign any random bytes? why does it need to come from the lighthouse?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu had concerns re. "signed", but iirc the concept of "station key" (vs. "mega important owner key") helped there. not sure if entirely resolved, tho
Framedragger: A and B may then decide to enter some different "state" but the general gossipd design is stateless, i.e. there is no session
Framedragger: yes i think so, and note that there is a time window there re. how recent challenge string has to be, to avoid replay. i.e., those strings expire. and yes that's how you send a msg to B iirc
Framedragger: ("well ok, let me generate this one just for you, and this for just for you", vs. "i'll generate this many auth strings per time unit, and distribute them to this set of destinations (or "shit them out via radio"))
Framedragger: so there's no way to DoS peer B with "hi plox to send me an auth string, i'm totally legit non sybil node"
Framedragger: the point is that auth strings are sent regardless of whether the connecting peer (A) wants them
Framedragger: note the important aspect which lighthouse introduces: constant stream of auth strings, "in all directions"
sina: well, the next line is literally "This variant is not, incidentally, intrinsically incompatible with Mircea Popescu's - conceivably he might choose to hand out auth challenges to all-comers, while I operate lighthouse; while retaining the other basic mechanics."
sina: "To craft a valid packet, a sender must collect a single auth string from the receiving node's lighthouse (via whatever means, can be a shortwave tuner), craft auth with it as described by Mircea Popescu earlier, encipher to receiver's RSA pubkey, and send." ?
Framedragger: did you read the part about lighthouse based challenge, though?
sina: I guess I'll wait for some clarification from mircea_popescu ? challenge/response is a session based concept even ignoring the older post
Framedragger: (i know it's a hella lot of comments under the newer article but iirc his "DoS magnet!!" points are addressed there)
Framedragger: sina: fwiw (he can speak for himself but to save you time), asciilifeform does not like sessions [ever|anymore], and considers them ugly beasts which won't have a place in his gossipd bed
Framedragger: (but then, the newer article clearly states "This is an up-to-date draft specification for gossipd", so i'm not too sure about that, either)
Framedragger: (ah in fact a bit up the stack, http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-121602)
asciilifeform: and in fact goes through ALL OF THEM, to avoid leaking timing.
sina: asciilifeform: can you clarify, *all* comms? when I was implementing my first pass at encrypting comms yest, I found that at least the very first message when a peer connects as a client would be plaintext, i.e. "hi I'm A", otherwise the "server" would need to enumerate all its keys to find if it knows the peer?
Framedragger: god it's like quoting talmud at this point :D (i mean the long comments etc)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you get this 'for free' from the normal relay mechanism
asciilifeform: 1) original mircea_popescu's algo: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc 2) the newer: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document
Framedragger: asciilifeform: sure, but (plz don't vomit from use of keyword) there should be a way to onion-rsa them, too (A encrypts to C's key, then encrypts to B's key and tells B to relay to C which is currently offline, or w/e)
asciilifeform: i thought this was pretty clear from the article.
asciilifeform: sina: if you're asking re mircea_popescu's algo -- then yes
asciilifeform: Framedragger: in mircea_popescu's gossipd algo, there are 2 types of messages, ordinary and private. the latter behave as described above
Framedragger: intermediary peers won't be able to decrypt message in the latter model, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: sina: how do the 2 models differ ?
sina: should the operator be encrypting the message for the final recipient and then publishing that ciphertext?
sina: what I'm asking is, does that behaviour match the intent? OR
sina: in current model, operator can write a message and claim it is from anyone and "publish" it to their own message store. when peers connect, the messages since last seen are delivered, each encrypted with a peer-pair unique RSA key. so as the message "progresses" between peers it gets encrypted, then decrypted and stored in each peers message store in plaintext
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 13:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-27#1675077 << there's no intention that there would be plaintext anything, wtf.
asciilifeform: to trick systemd-resolved in to allocating a buffer that's too small, and subsequently write arbitrary data beyond the end of it.'
asciilifeform: in other, not wholly unrelated, lulz, '...out-of-bounds write in systemd-resolved in Ubuntu, which is possible to trigger with a specially crafted TCP payload. ... Certain sizes passed to dns_packet_new can cause it to allocate a buffer that's too small. A page-aligned number - sizeof(DnsPacket) + sizeof(iphdr) + sizeof(udphdr) will do this... A malicious DNS server can exploit this by responding with a specially crafted TCP payload
mircea_popescu: i got a whole silo fulla these btw, if you need.
Framedragger: :p what, the shipping company? ha
mircea_popescu: not like they were needed anyway!
Framedragger: btw maersk (some related ports) is down due to new "ransomware" (orange website says it's the same nsa "eternalblue" windows vuln)
mircea_popescu: it's indubitably there.
mod6: hi shinohai, glad to hear that the testing went well.
lobbes: One of the oldest self-help b00ks, still kickin' to this day
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-27#1675463 << in somewhat vintage cargocultisms. >> "Korean women want to know the secret. They found the secret in this book." << lol "You, too, can do 'it'!"
BingoBoingo: So the first 3 results from the Google search "Roxanne Gay hamplanet" do not include the word hamplanet. Google Has either learned OR CENSORED RESULTS AGAIN!!!
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: 'Among the store’s roughly five thousand volumes were eight different books called “Talmud,” several of which listed Rabbi Tokayer as the author and included pictures of him inside their front covers. One version included “A Personal Message from the Author,” in English, in which Tokayer expressed his belief that “the Korean people and the Jewish people have so much in common, and share so many similar values.” '
asciilifeform: in continuation of 'the best car -- is to already be at the destination' line of thought, 'the best keyboard is to simply not need to hit many keys'
asciilifeform: and moreover, the mircea_popescutronic answer to 'rsi', is that one that i end up using: 'type less, fool'
asciilifeform: but given what % of time i spend in front of screen and touching kbd, the idea of using lusertronic rubbish has ~0 appeal
asciilifeform: there of course is the -- quite valid -- mircea_popescu school of thought, 'furniture oughta be standard and expendable'
asciilifeform: they were... eternal
asciilifeform: aha, theoretically quite possible.
phf: yeah, i think we had a conversation about putting piano forte into the firmware. if you type it fff it'll automatically uppercase and add random !!! etc.
asciilifeform: spring buckles and conductive plastic 'foot' tips and moves just a little, changing the resonant freq of that row/column
asciilifeform: i like the key mechanisms -- unlike 'ibm m', no membrane, no rubber anythings, no rivets.
asciilifeform: however it is worth noting that it accepts ibm 'm' keys, and so you can easily be rid of the martian terminal keys and replace with 'human'
phf: yeah, i got two, i'm yet to do anything with them. (and yes, mine are steel and correct version etc.)
asciilifeform: there's several kg of steel in'ere
asciilifeform: currently i use one of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard#/media/File:Model_F_corrosion.jpg and it took eons to sand, deburr, paint, rf paint inside, ultrasonically clean the moving parts, reassembly takes ~day...
phf: i've at some point went through a mechanical keyboard site and ordered 6 different boards with all the available switches from different manufacturers. while they look "retro", e.g. http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/modern_selectric_keycaps_50529.jpg they all universally felt cheap with light frame and unpleasant lateral travel
asciilifeform: 'Maltron keyboards are expensive by comparison and for many people represent a considerable investment. They are hand made from sheet materials which are formed and punched to make the shell or body of the keyboard. Cherry MX key switches are individually fitted by hand. The switch contacts are wired up into a scanning XY matrix by hand. In fact everything is done on an individual basis by hand. This does not result in a $5 product.
mod6: those maltron boards look nice. i didn't get one because it's nearly 2x as much as the kinesis.. and had no idea if i could even get used to the concave thing.
phf: mod6: people have modded that advantage to have a trackball in the middle, with a variety of approaches. there's actually hollow space there
mod6: <+phf> has builtin trackball even, in the right place << this would be handy. mine doesn't have this. having to take my hands off the board gets annoying.
asciilifeform: the '50 million cycles' thing is a bold lie.
asciilifeform: sadly they ( and taiwanese 'alps' clone ) are the ~only 'clickies' in new production afaik today.
asciilifeform: and when they do you geeeetttttt thiiiiis
phf: it's because their own design, "maltron switches". sometimes it's an option on those "mechanical keyboard" sites, so i wouldn't be surprised if the switches are good
asciilifeform: the site seems to be silent re switches.
BingoBoingo: All sorts of botique business endavors are born thinking "Better materials!!!" are a panacea, then they build their product, and it turns out there are design considerations beyond material
asciilifeform: i wonder what the switches are like
asciilifeform: looks like like in the b00k
phf: has builtin trackball even, in the right place
asciilifeform: ( if not -- why not?! for 2000 i can have own motherfucking kbd machined. out of steel. )
phf: yeah i wonder, i looked into it 10+ years ago, and punted at the $2000 or whatever price tag
mod6: they annoyme... but really all i use is the ESC key, which i've since replaced the windows key with a new normal esc key and remapped.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:12 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-27#1674891 << i've been using that one for a while, with a https://www.amazon.com/CST2545-L-Trac-Wired-Performance-Trackball/dp/B00EEFK5QQ trackball in the middle. i'm pretty happy with that setup. i've figured out how to get the firmware out of the controller, so i'm hoping to customize some of the keys (that are otherwise useless)
mod6: <+a111> Logged on 2017-06-27 14:37 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-27#1674958 << lol, are those f-keys rubber?! << apparently the older versions were indeed rubber. they've since gotten rid of that, and are now plastic.
asciilifeform: it's the Right Thing.
asciilifeform: phf: i posted one of these for 'p' recently
phf: of only interest, it's got a state machine that knows how to parse (and validate as far as allocation and "how big is it?") individual packets, byte by byte and collect them until passing them on to gnupg
phf: oh it's the same design as sina, slinging openpgp "packets"