mircea_popescu: this is a very typical ustardian headroach, deliberately educated into their brains like those african tribes with the flattened skulls.
asciilifeform: '50k bullets', if useful at all, are only so as 'fleet in being' -- 'damocle's sword could Smite You Any Day Of The Week' etc
mircea_popescu: sort-of how "the improved technology" of us army makes most countries immune to it. "what, you're gonna blow a 5mn tomahawk to destroy this here 20k hangar ? bwahahaha go right ahead, the chinese give 50k in cash rebates for each destroyed hangar they rebuild cuz you tomahawked."
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 09:07 sina: once long ago, I ran a tor hidden service that allowed anyone to execute any command they liked on it, as a deanonymisation challenge
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677276 << this is reminiscent of the 'i left a box with bait of 1 bitcent and nobody broke it, SEKOORE!!!1' -- you gotta ask 'was the game worth the candles'. an 0day can be worth from $100k to $maxint; why does your particular honeypot, merit blowing it.
asciilifeform: shinohai: mebbe it's the d00d who designed m16 rifle
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/the-end-of-emissions-control << CH - The End of Emissions Control
asciilifeform: it isn't clear to asciilifeform how much 'room for improvement' there is, unless one were to cough up solutions to a number of unsolved ( and possibly unsolvable ) mathematical boojums
asciilifeform: incidentally the 'pass around the latest rsa-signed payload from master' is sop there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you don't need real time response, or monotonicity ( you made a change and it stays made , instead of randomly reverting itself like fart in the wind ) then existing botnet is more or less what you want.
mircea_popescu: honestly, i expect the unix "Shell" is very much "poor man's ai". specifically "we can't get it to laugh at your jokes or suck your cock, but here's the best we can do, it's almost as if you're talking to it"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'shell' used here in the general sense of 'apparatus that spits out responses to button presses in approx. psychological-realtime'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, there is that. but... at least PARTS of bitcoin are not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a shell is an artefact of technology, like say the "eingeer's" coal shovel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the principal boojum is not-being-transparent-to-enemy
mircea_popescu: the key elements are a) specify a quanta and b) let them either get to it or not. some will.
shinohai: Mine ethereum for scam ICO's of course.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter -- bitcoin is computed by a) 1024 flickering nodes that b) lose data or processing all the time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i've been stabbing at the 1024 chickens thing since 2006 or so
ben_vulpes: shinohai: they don't make keyboards for fingers that large
shinohai: If a black mayogendered tgirl writes code, will the universe implode?
mircea_popescu: this is how conversations go -- if you're talking to alf, he's gonna mention it himself ; if talking to anyone else, you hit them over the head with it.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nah, but they make up for it with genderswappers
mircea_popescu: why would they do that ?!
ben_vulpes: to quote #programmer-therapy: "i just sat clicking at a recaptcha for five minutes before it would accept that i'm human."
ben_vulpes: "the guys down the office keep giving us hardons with the homomorphic encryption stuff but every time we sit down to discuss numbers it turns out to be computationally infeasible so uh here's this rest layer over postgres so you don't have to touch the dirty dirty phone numbers yourselves"
asciilifeform: ddos is one example, in the sense where it absolutely does not matter if a ~particular~ packet of liquishit gets sent or not
asciilifeform: which is a comical pit of usgology, not a single item in the 'toolbox' actually works as described, or is based on anything other than wishful thinking
asciilifeform: the homomorphism derpism
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly the whole fucking point of "malleable encryption" is ~give or take to make lubby for computation.
mircea_popescu: the whole point is -- that it's not clear to me this is an unaproachable limit.
asciilifeform: there is not ( and probably provably cannot be ) a 'luby for computation'
mircea_popescu: yes but now we're down the tree discussing types of flicker.
asciilifeform: that ain't the type of flicker contemplated
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re "how many activities" -- it's not so clear to me, and moreover the consensus of hardware farmers (as opposed to coders) is that there's not much reason this absolutely should be the case, other than, to quote, "largely a lack of originality in the types of commands executed".
asciilifeform: ( how long we've been stuck with the kochtron, after knowing what it is ! disgraceful )
asciilifeform: in the interest of actually finishing things.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 08:20 mircea_popescu: the typical botnet is what, a bunch of fridges sending ntp requests ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677176 << believe or not, there is a reason for this: not so many activities tolerate arbitrarily unreliable, flickering '1024 chickens'
asciilifeform: trinque: that was the original application as i saw it, btw
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 08:09 mircea_popescu: interesting. what was the problem with it ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677127 << unreadably massive turd written by svameritards, with million deps, what could possibly be the problem...
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 08:03 sina: it's a linux kernel feature you can use to limit which syscalls a program has access to...the original version of seccomp allowed only read()/write()/exit() syscalls
asciilifeform: esp. the udp/luby piece (where ONE packet must somehow suffice for friend-or-foe, but it cannot >512byte! )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677070 << and that's when you realize that the ~adult~ gossipd is a 150x moar complicated item.
asciilifeform: yes, bum can be dislodged from train station, and trump, theoretically, from trump tower. but in practice palpable diff.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677316 << it is not unlike the diff b/w living in a train station bench vs a building to which you have title in manhattan
asciilifeform: Framedragger: srs q, btw, i know nothing about this supposed great guru other than 'pretty gurl posing for usg.tor photo ops, oh-so-oppressed, oh-so-orangerev' etc
Framedragger: ah or not because probably no proper response. i mean, i ack the contradiction.
shinohai: "Wright also reiterated that he’s ready to take legal action against those who have ridiculed his claim of being the creator of Bitcoin, which he made back in 2016. "
Framedragger: this ad hominem (some ad hominems are completely valid, that i understand) is orthogonal to technical knowledge and its conveyance to other people. i know that there is no apolitical knowledge and you maybe can't separate the two, but i think sometimes it's possible, to an extent.
trinque: Framedragger: that "crypto-anarchist" thing is exactly a continuation of the american notion of "omg it's a free country, can do whatever I want"
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677141 << hadn't had a chance to pick it up for a bit; got time this weekend though. item I've got can maintain balances, send and mark-paid invoices. I think I'll handle deposits manually and call that a first cut, trb address tracking without a privkey isn't there yet.
Framedragger: "the former has regulationz and policies to protect it!" doesn't sound very tmsr to me, hm
mircea_popescu: having the item running can't hurt in any case. if it gets owned, you learn a lesson. if it doesn't, it ... works.
sina: mircea_popescu: *el paso theme song* why not both?
mircea_popescu: on the basis of its record of accomplishments it's not even directly obvious if it was made by usg to orange revolution random shitholes, or rather to mentally swamp the not-entirely-dim lightbulbs in its own collegiate stables.
sina: anyway, this was all just to answer ben_vulpes question about how you can make sure the "job" doesn't fuck with its billing supervisor
mircea_popescu: the thing sucked a lot of naive youth time that way.
sina: at the time I was v interested in tor hs, before it became completely obvious that GCHQ/NSA had ability to look across the whole onion, and I just wanted to demonstrate hey it is actually possible to not ride your bike into the side of the bus
sina: mircea_popescu: it was trying to prove at the time, that you could construct system in such a way that it can't expose its own info by amateur fuckups
ben_vulpes off, robosprinklers pointed out the time and suddenly v. tired
mircea_popescu: nfi what you folks are discussing. i meant, the metering irc bot would be interesting.
sina: mircea_popescu: it was more to prove the point at the time that Ulbricht was a numpty who couldn't secure his own ass
sina: (because of the sandbox techniques)
sina: nobody could ever deanon it even though they had shell access
sina: once long ago, I ran a tor hidden service that allowed anyone to execute any command they liked on it, as a deanonymisation challenge
sina: you can run the command in a sandbox and track it with cgroups in linux
ben_vulpes: cl runs 3-4x longer than the go impl after attending to all the compiler notes i can; probably need a pointer on profiling common lisp code to squeeze much more out of it
sina: oh the thing tracking billing?
sina: I think this is a much more interesting idea than the IRC bot I was goign to make that plays chess
sina: in situation 1, I assume there is no bricktop and we exchange wotpaste directly
ben_vulpes: also worth mentioning the feedback loop where a and c get the wrong keys somehow and go talk to b about it
sina: and I am basically just grokking the thing less than a week ago
sina: it's because you have an implicit mental model of the thing and years of log context
sina: transitive peer recognition through trusting the fucker
sina: as B has fucked C and A and exchange paper with both of them
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 02:18 mircea_popescu: the only way for A and B to be introduced, outside of the grandfatherly, A fucks B and they exchange bits of paper, is C tells A about B and B about A.
sina: I get the feeling that the task would be much simpler if there was only 1 public IP for the whoel system where you could retrieve the results of whatever "job" you triggered
sina: but both might spin up 5 "new ones" to do the task
sina: that's what they call you mate
mircea_popescu: "FOR THE DEMOCRACY! PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO LOOK UP YOUR BLADDER!"
mircea_popescu: people are liek "oh, mp can't be rich & powerful because rich & powerful people don't irc". totally, because it is really the goal of my life as well as everyone reasonable to be as rich and powerful as trump, so as to live the great life of idiots trying to insert cathetercam up your dick as you're trying to pee
sina: an idea I had, then I saw someone had done it way better than my idea
sina: seriously hanging here is the least bored I ever am
mircea_popescu: as the saying went, "poll or get lost" hm
mircea_popescu: among them, things from you know, 1997
sina: customer sites used to get scanned/pwned/php shell uploaded on the regular
mircea_popescu: dunno how much useful anything can a windows box execute, but for the sake of argument
sina: sure, but that is largely a lack of originality in the types of commands executed, but the botnet itself can execute whatever
mircea_popescu: people's understanding of "botnet" goes as far as the very deliberate automattic wp hole, for isntance.
mircea_popescu: the typical botnet is what, a bunch of fridges sending ntp requests ?
mircea_popescu: let them self-deploy.
sina: well someone like me could write software to do these things but the deployment would need to be outside of jurisdiction, hard for me as an AU citizen
sina: so this thing literally exists on the market today and its fucking cheap for example to use Amazon Lambda...is the reason you want your own basically boil down to 1. no irc gw 2. not tmsr?
sina: so then?
mircea_popescu: nor does it... acquire them.
mircea_popescu: there's two kinds of computers : public, and private. everyone else's computers are public, and by public i simply mean, not theirs.
sina: you mean, the ransomware bot shoudl have been UCI bots? haha
mircea_popescu: nono, the attack consists of encryption.
sina: fde wouldn't have protected them
mircea_popescu: nobody cared what their shitty data was, anyway.
mircea_popescu: then all the ad-hoc uci impls doing full disk encryption for maerks could be actually useful.
mircea_popescu: sina the idea is for me to go "do this" and for it to go "here's your bill sir"
mircea_popescu: there's a management/pricing segment too
sina: mircea_popescu: when the people I know first wrote ZeroVM it was like 2012 or so, and at the time I was working at a startup you may recall that. and I told everyone we shoudl get involved, was ignored, then ZeroVM got "acquihired" by Rackspace
mircea_popescu: interesting. what was the problem with it ?
sina: sorry, them being?
mircea_popescu: i think we even used them at some point.
sina: you've probably heard of Amazon S3, it's an object store with REST API, so it responds to primitives GET/HEAD/PUT/DELETE/POST ...there is an equivalent open source project part of OpenStack called Swift. some people I know worked on a sandbox that only accepts input on stdin and writes to stdout, and wrotesome middleware for swift so you can for example upload a datset and compute on it and get the result
mircea_popescu: there is ?
sina: hmm ok so there is an interesting technology I have worked on
mircea_popescu: that is a fine example. or, you know, calculate the mpfhf over the gutenberg collection.
sina: I can actually feel asciilifeform being angry at me in the future already
sina: is that the same kind of idea?
mircea_popescu: myeah. all sorts of these.
sina: it's a linux kernel feature you can use to limit which syscalls a program has access to...the original version of seccomp allowed only read()/write()/exit() syscalls
mircea_popescu: nah. candi_lustt is a by hand, limited implementation of something that could be deemed uci in the sense of the donkey-powered shower.
mircea_popescu: sina ah ok. yeah that's the idea.
mircea_popescu: see the early discussion re it in the log, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=UCI it's well described
sina: I got that from the logsearch link you put, but http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582081 had me confused
sina: so can you untangle these for me as I'm a little confused
mircea_popescu: sina ftr, the lisp repl with irc interface was already built ; her name is candi_lustt
mircea_popescu: well, basically a bunch of people (ideally) will write ai bots, and solmeone will have to run their tournament.
sina: I did look at the learning tournament blog previously but I couldn't really grok it
sina: mircea_popescu: FYI that is a bunch of send and recv from 2 peers, (1 on port 5555, other on port 5556) on the same network interface (127.0.0.1) ...it's not a single "session"
mircea_popescu: i intend to hire someone to do the official run, see.
mircea_popescu: and i was talking specifically about the ai learning thing, http://trilema.com/2017/the-bitcoin-learning-tournament/
sina: mircea_popescu: I dunno. all I can say is when I was reading the ai logs, and you mentioned irc repl, I was thinking about how it could be implemented
sina: I just googled "small RSA lib" and tomcrypt was one that had python bindings out of the box
sina: happy to swap out the RSA lib if one can be proposed
sina: mircea_popescu: I feel fine about reducing everything once the concept is OK'd
mircea_popescu: sina can you dump pcap of two of these talking ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 02:15 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-28#1675565 << the problem with the concept of a "session" is that it attempts to link machine state to world state. this is a very tenuous proposition, and the fundamental reason why sessionificatyion of (the correctly designed) stateless http protocol failed for 30 years straight and will continue to fail forever.
sina: there's no session! :P
mircea_popescu: and so the little guy grew...
mircea_popescu: got some other stuff going right now, so not a good time, but tomorrow or such ?
sina: I was missing the final "-" of your pubkey footer
mircea_popescu: heh, sounds exactly like why man made computer in the first place.
mircea_popescu: 99% cpu too, nice handiwork there :D
sina: you can ctrl-c the daemon and I will tell you when to restart
mircea_popescu: i typed "hurr ?" into the demon window, though i suspect that's not intended usage
sina: sorry the UX bit of it is still a tad clunky
mircea_popescu: so i saved it as hurr.txt and then gossipc -k hurr.txt, no anmswer
sina: mircea_popescu: ok, so then save my key somewhere onto the filesystem like /tmp/sina_exchange.pub and run: gossipc --set-peer-key --name sina -k /tmp/sina_exchange.pub
mircea_popescu: hey, im into... something. there's pretty red colored stuff.
sina: ah interesting I actually had a similar idea after reading abotu the ai stuff
sina: mircea_popescu: would you be willing to ssh into another box where it's setup?
mircea_popescu: some assembly required huh. fair enough, lessee this readme then\
sina: the README explains all usage
sina: mircea_popescu: old man python hey? you should be able to clone the repo and run "python setup.py install" from inside the repo dir
mircea_popescu: the above should plainly explain btw (for instance, via asciilifeform 's "beat the ai" game), why rng is absolutely required for sovereign entity to even in principle exist.
ben_vulpes: i had no idea how shit the tanium was
ben_vulpes: tangentially relatedly, i've been working from a cheapo ssd in this ancient once-gaming-rig i got for a song and holy shit does it kick the ass off the ssds in macbooks
ben_vulpes: i only fuck with the jvm under duress
mircea_popescu: but kids today don't know the history of infosec anymoar.
mircea_popescu: the only reason it was funny is because it was GAY niggers that came up with it in the 40s!
mircea_popescu: phf next you're going to come up with shade a la "the only reason it's fabulous is cuz it's ghey" and then ima get my disbaseball bat
mircea_popescu: this + the ai learning thing, which i've not forgot about btw, will update it soonish.
mircea_popescu: anyway -- thanks to the werkz we are now in a better position to find out if this thing even works.
phf: apparently it's called a "dis", african americans invented it in the 40s
phf: some fiat shit right there
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6kdtw0/dead_altsoros_zbigniew_brzezinski_no_longer/ << If anyone cares to upboat or watch for unhappening
mircea_popescu: what is the count of iterations that corresponds to your symbol "all" ?
mircea_popescu: sina what is the definition of "complete" ?
sina: The function starts at position 0 in M and iterates over each bit in M
mircea_popescu: the whole game is "define ALL your elements and then USE NOTHING BUT THE DEFINED ELEMENTS"
mircea_popescu: incidentally, ben_vulpes & other blog afficionados, check me out with the article renaming on the fly, yes ? and old name resolves and everything ? go me ok ? OK ?
sina: mircea_popescu: suggestion. "A third operation is the flipping of a number of bits in either S or R," should read "elements A or B" and make that operation generic
mircea_popescu: i think i was so ashamed of publishing bs originally that i just edited on the spot
sina: mircea_popescu: I didn't forget, I thought you updated the blogpost on the day to reflect that and I did it on my README too
sina: has asciilifeform reviews the codes?
mircea_popescu: alrighty then. so we get 3.
sina: and I developed them in tandem
sina: you guys are literally the first and only people, ever, to actually care :P
sina: ben_vulpes: there was one, but I never posted anything to it
mircea_popescu: the problem isn't their per-unit value. the problem is their count ; and the unthinkingness.
sina: also what's on there is just...how do I put it? hobby projects? stuff I do in my spare time
ben_vulpes: sina: why the resistance to making a website?
mircea_popescu: sina yeah. and because mice don't bother elephant, elephant dies inexplicably of plague.
mircea_popescu: no two bit us-run "company" should have the sort of power ~everyone unthinkingly gave twitter et all.
sina: I guess it just doesn't bother me if anyone at all uses it
mircea_popescu: as if THEY had anything to do with it, any say in it, etcetera.
mircea_popescu: no. i am asking what exactly must be your thought process to give away your work to a bunch of usg tarded spammers so they can then turn around and sell it.
mircea_popescu: will i have been made a sucker for your sake then ?
mircea_popescu: sina suppose, for the sake of entirely idle argument going over things that could never happen irl, that in a week github comes up with a "code of conduct" and you get booted off it.
sina: anyway if you hate it no need to link, like Isaid nothing is public facing there atm anyway
mircea_popescu: you know, just because the brits.co.uk are fucktarded, doesn't change how domain names work.
mircea_popescu: well so then reg a domain and use that.
mircea_popescu: "where do i send the check ?" "oh, here's my landlord's address. he takes all my money and i guess if he's bored buys me little riffled ankle socks so i can dance in the street"
mircea_popescu: and sina ben_vulpes where's the cannonical impl live for each of you ? i dun want to change links later.
sina: and I remember making it [0, count] and it breaking somehow or other
a111: Logged on 2017-06-10 04:09 ben_vulpes: my next q is does the iteration run [0, count] or [0, count)
mircea_popescu: so girl bought imported (us) strawberries, and i swear to god they taste like detergent. washed and rinsed the living shit out of them. it's in the fucking skin.
sina: mircea_popescu: off the top of my head there were two things that I thought needed clarification
asciilifeform: but they aren't here to stay.
sina: and I do remember a logline from asciilifeform "written in python because if I didn't then it wouldn't exist" or along those lines
sina: I guess you think the entire edifice of computing should be torn down and rebuilt
sina: mod6: although, again, maybe not, I think the desire is to not have sqlite dep and use fs so...
mod6: sina: aside from alfs previous assertions; do you not want a primary key field set in the messages or keys table?
sina: asciilifeform: I think all the stuff you care about will be in process/
sina: somehow it's 1pm and I haven't eaten breakfast, going to walk to the shop
asciilifeform: and whoever insinuates otherwise, is not a friend
asciilifeform: sina: it's physically impossible then
sina: yeah, I definitely appreciate the fitsinhead thing
sina: although I do guess the researchers could be convinced to send source
sina: asciilifeform: nope, and I did look! the closest thing I found was this, which is both not public and not for constantime, although interesting nonetheless drops.dagstuhl.de/opus/volltexte/2012/3587/pdf/3.pdf
asciilifeform: ( if whoever knows of another -- plz write in..!! )
asciilifeform: afaik mine is the only fixed spacetime bigint lib that exists publicly
asciilifeform: sina: it is in the logs
sina: asciilifeform: btw I was going to ask you about your feelings on this https://github.com/cforler/Ada-Crypto-Library ...obviously hasn't been impl for constant time/space but regardless. may be possible to ctgrind it using that valgrind patch I linked in the logs
mod6: sina: where's the code?
asciilifeform: with the ffa massages
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still eat'em faster than they shit'em, but currently tied up
mircea_popescu: i suspect today is the day tmsr production exceeded the ability of any one man to keep abreast of.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-29 21:39 mircea_popescu: in the end the circling will always come to the same square : do you wish to live long, or do you wish to live well.
sina: cool see you then
sina: but there are definitely one or two additional refinements
mircea_popescu: cool. read the article, make list of what you think needs changed
sina: mircea_popescu: sure. happy to. FWIW, I kept README.md in my python repo updated with the spec as our discussions went on
sina: ahh you took the words out of my mouth!