Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-12-11 | 2016-12-13 → ↓
BingoBoingo suggests relaxing session of whittling with a sawzall to clear mind, shame microfiche can't be clearsigned.
Framedragger: shinohai: s/Palyrma/Palmyra/ (1st sentence) :) (also not sure if you wanted Months to be capitalised but maybe stylistic pref)
Framedragger just placed an order for FG-USB and feels very christmas-y!
Framedragger: (a rather decent bitcoin invoicing interface btw)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581948 << dude what ? link me where you tried it wouldja, i recall it working fine when eg gpg source.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 04:05 asciilifeform: reactor melted
mircea_popescu: also the reason your handmade netlist is not usable is ~same svg is not usable : too long.
mircea_popescu: they're the same length however, and for the same reason : item too complex.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, it was simple when i made it" "yes, if i define three letter strings as various pieces of literature, i'll be able to "write" whole books by saying agafufu. so what of it."
mircea_popescu: Framedragger unlike to make it before jan tho. sorry bout that.
Framedragger: 'tis what i figured :) my christmasy spirit will not be diminished, tho!
Framedragger: (thanks for the heads up)
mircea_popescu: ta nana na na na nana nananana nana na na!
Framedragger: btw i'm going thru those ssh banners from ssh scan logs finally, and there's some inconsistent crap there (thanks openssh): same ip&port may respond with two different banners during same scan (the ssh-keyscan utility may spit banners for same server multiple times). it seems usually the mismatch is in adding a minor version onto ssh server string only (e.g. [SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.8] vs. older [SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.8p2])
Framedragger: but it also does shit like [SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.1p1 Debian-5] vs. older [SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.5p1 Debian-4ubuntu5]
mircea_popescu: is older from june ?
Framedragger: imma dump all this in a nice format now, i'll separate OS string from ssh versionstring i guess
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: nono - sorry for confusing - "older" as in "previously seen in same logfile", it's for my internal use so i don't go insane. all of this is from single scan even in 13-14 june.
mircea_popescu: ah. because boxes with the various "autoupdate" things mya do that.
Framedragger: the later "rescan" only added previously-unseen IPs, + new IPs. same ip was never scanned twice, assuming it already spat out a banner and pubkey the first time.
Framedragger: i guess as long as everything's stored in a sane manner and format, it's no big diff.
Framedragger: i guess the scanned banners could go into a separate "scans" table with timestamps / scan event numbers, so that one could JOIN and check multiple banners for ip, especially when i plan to later re-scan everything again, etc.
mircea_popescu: this is becoming quite the autonomous "net awareness" item.
mircea_popescu: lol /me googles "nabt", first result ? national association of biology teachers (this site may be hacked).
mircea_popescu: ty google for your blessing ?
Framedragger: hahaha
mircea_popescu: anyway. nabt = not a bad thing.
Framedragger: ahh. cool
Framedragger: yeah, would be great to have ssl certs etc all in the same place, timestamped, so one could track history, to an extent. (and then be able to offer realtime scans and alerts as a service, say...)
mircea_popescu: how the fuck is it that those supposedly ubervaluable engineers that don't exist anywhere else and can't be replicated (as per microsoft idiot) nevertheless DO NOT COMPREHEND the difference between the present conditional and the pluperfect conditional.
mircea_popescu: it may be, it might have been, whatever the fuck, same thing.
mircea_popescu: then they choose to write in brainfuck and everybody goes "oh, brainfuck, modern language" rather than "oh, these idiots can't even speak english."
mircea_popescu: one fucking step away from "this site maybe hacking, we here at google al-halala, no hack, no hack at all sir!"
Framedragger has a guess that many 'native speaker' derps can get confuzzled when encountering future perfect ("will have hacked")
Framedragger: it's too much to handle, i tell u
mircea_popescu: fuck 'em. they want to get into engineering school, first they acquire literacy in their mother tongue what the everliving fuck might this have had being!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581961 << this is pointedly not so, think about it for a minute, a netlist cannot be longer than the active pincount !
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 13:10 mircea_popescu: also the reason your handmade netlist is not usable is ~same svg is not usable : too long.
asciilifeform: in our case, it is shorter than the pld src
asciilifeform: considerably .
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 13:38 mircea_popescu: how the fuck is it that those supposedly ubervaluable engineers that don't exist anywhere else and can't be replicated (as per microsoft idiot) nevertheless DO NOT COMPREHEND the difference between the present conditional and the pluperfect conditional.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: think, netlist is the essential 'soul' of schematic, definitionally such that if you change ONE character, you get a ~different~ (and , likely, broken) device.
asciilifeform: and it has no stinking 10-digit (or any other) pixel coords (wtf), line thicknesses, fonts, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but irrespective, it's for the same ~reason~.
mircea_popescu: a svg also "can not be longer than the total line count"
asciilifeform: svg lines are garbage though
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which of the two thises are you inquiring about ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no! they aren't garbage, as you sdaid yourself - nobody would want to see the netlist, because they'd want to see the "unofficial" LINES.
asciilifeform: well theoretically you can make the schem from the netlist. but doing so usefully is np-complete
mircea_popescu: exactly. so no, the svg lines aren't garbage - on the contrary, unlike netlist, interesting.
asciilifeform: but indeed schem 'lives in' a correctly made netlist.
mircea_popescu: this is also true.
asciilifeform: and they ARE garbage, wtf , 10 decimal coords? thicknesses? WHY
mircea_popescu: ya well.
asciilifeform: it occurs to me that one could write a 'garbage compactor' for these
asciilifeform: discretized the floats, round the thicknesses to 2 places, etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the (unrelated) q was re the illiterate engineers thing
asciilifeform: where was it from
mircea_popescu: some dork named danluu was raving on about how microsoft sucks because google got all the engineers that exist.
mircea_popescu: o wait, wasn't him. some other dork by the name alex clemmer, http://blog.nullspace.io/building-search-engines.html
a111: Logged on 2016-12-08 03:29 mircea_popescu: "What would Lucene at Google’s size look like? If we do a naive back of the envelope calculation on what it would take to index a significant fraction of the internet (often estimated to be 1 trillion (T) or 10T documents), we might expect a 1T document index to cost something like $10B1. That’s not a feasible startup, so let’s say that instead of trying to index 1T documents, we want to maintain an artisanal search ind
mircea_popescu: in proper terms : even the empire figured out the incredibly tenuous position of google, who a) provides no useful service and b) survives exactly out of yahoo-style ponzi scheme (as described by paul graham, one of its architects pre dot com bubble)
mircea_popescu: so you know, they're doing their patriotic duty to pretend so as to create the aggregate dogvomit upon which "nobody could have predicted" in case there's any responsibility to allocate later.
mircea_popescu: like the fucking zergs, they're making the creep.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 14:24 asciilifeform: it occurs to me that one could write a 'garbage compactor' for these
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 20:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i could readily reduce the svg if you wish, most of it is dreamweaver-style pointless tagging
asciilifeform: a 'p'-style vector graphics thing might be interesting , in some distant future..
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582023 << it's the ~only ~working search engine, like or not. (and no, rubbish with 'maybe we crawl your page this ~year~ unless you're a major newspaper' is not a search engine)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 14:58 mircea_popescu: so you know, they're doing their patriotic duty to pretend so as to create the aggregate dogvomit upon which "nobody could have predicted" in case there's any responsibility to allocate later.
mircea_popescu: except when we wanted eg framedragger's data we had to crawl ourselves, yes ?
mircea_popescu: whenever i actually want data i have to crawl myself but people go around saying "google is the only working search engine"
mircea_popescu: yes dude, if you want wikipedia answers for wikipedia user's interests it's fucking great!
mircea_popescu: somehow however i don't seem to ever want that.
asciilifeform: it doesn't port scan , no
mircea_popescu: oh, but when i want stuff from the log i also don't google
asciilifeform: it also doesn't hammer nails
mircea_popescu: it also doesn't do anything, because yes srsly, i don't need to "google trump" to find trump's facebook page.
asciilifeform: strangely enough it has ~entire log
asciilifeform: and phuctor also.
asciilifeform: i have nfi why )
mircea_popescu: !~google "strangely enough it has ~entire log"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: strangely enough Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary: <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/strangely-enough>; Strangely Enough - The New York Times: <http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/23/magazine/surreal-photography.html>; Language Log » One comma too many: <http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/%3Fp%3D2339>
mircea_popescu: !#s "strangely enough it has ~entire log"
asciilifeform: usually takes hour or so
mircea_popescu: fuck me it doesn't!
mircea_popescu: !~google "at any rate, talk to the old trotskyists, mats , they might help."
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: If the Trotskyists are on the march there's chaos ahead | John Harris ...: <https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/11/trotskyists-on-the-march-chaos-ahead>; Chapter I: Family and School: Leon Trotsky : Stalin –An appraisal of ...: <https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1940/xx/stalin/ch01.htm>; Trotskyism - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism>
mircea_popescu: !#s "at any rate, talk to the old trotskyists, mats , they might help."
asciilifeform: ^ did this ever work ?
mircea_popescu: it "does" except not this not that and not the other. which is the fucking point.
asciilifeform: the google-from-bot i mean
mircea_popescu: yes, i'm aware it can point me to google's facebook. tyvm it never seems to be a practical need i have.
asciilifeform: i dun recall it getting even 1 useful result this way.
asciilifeform: useful shit tends to live 20, 30 places into the list
mircea_popescu: No results found for "at any rate, talk to the old trotskyists, mats , they might help.". << via the web interface
asciilifeform: then i suppose the rot - continues. rotten, maggoty google is still the closest thing i know of to working search engine for www...
mircea_popescu: "for banal www as long as i don't look for things anyone in the libertard camp may object to, conceivably"
asciilifeform: 'in the great birdlessness, my arse is a nightingale'
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: and yes, it even censors warez now.
asciilifeform: for couple of years now.
mircea_popescu: you can pretty much guess what % of imbeciles make up a site's userbase by what % come via search.
asciilifeform: 99% of phuctor hits.
asciilifeform: google.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ouch.
mircea_popescu: "you can pretty much guess what % of imbeciles make up an old, established site's userbase by what % come via search."
asciilifeform: dunno why not censored phuctor yet! i must be doing something wrong!11111
mircea_popescu: you prolly have interesting numbers.
Framedragger: so many good project ideas.
mircea_popescu: don't start too soon. we've not yet the manpower or infrastructure to do a google.
mircea_popescu: after uci.
mircea_popescu: the tmsr situation is very much like, space ship landed on new planet, there's a few people and tech of unspeakable power, and otherwise a bunch of shamanic tribes on the surface. fuckable, but that's about all, their ooga-ooga language is fucking tiresome.
Framedragger: uci == universal computing interface? something something infrastructure on demand at your irc fingertips, right (ironically google is failing me)
mircea_popescu: it's in teh ticket system
mircea_popescu: inbcidentally asciilifeform as per that discussion of how much it costs to index etc, phuctor is a total google poison.
mircea_popescu: ie, we probably cost it more than hacker news.
asciilifeform: they dun have to crawl it if they dun wanna.
mircea_popescu: hence poison.
asciilifeform: funnily enough i even have 'robots off'
asciilifeform: they -- insists.
asciilifeform: *insist
asciilifeform: bunch of other crawlers i've never heard of, also:
asciilifeform: e.g., something claiming to be http://ahrefs.com/robot, but not obeying the 'off switch' specified there; and jumping ip ranges 10+ times if banned (i can no longer be arsed)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582034 << btw when i search for error messages, i generally find'em. granted this is 'moral hazard' and arguably makes for a substantially more turdalicious software ecosystem than if folks were 'shit out of luck' when seeing EGGOGs. but there it is.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 15:13 mircea_popescu: somehow however i don't seem to ever want that.
asciilifeform: 'if you can, you must' (tm) (r) ( mircea_popescu )
asciilifeform: with that in mind, neither 'rotor', nor fuckgoats, nor phuctor, would exist if asciilifeform had not been able to do ~10,000 google searches.
asciilifeform: the necessary detail is NOT found in my dead tree collection, nor in meatwot, nor anywhere else i could conceivably get to other than via bad old heathen search.
asciilifeform: it is very easy to piss on google when you don't have to do anything technical with own hands.
asciilifeform: but those of us who do -- are its prisoners.
mircea_popescu: ah that ahrefs thing it's a "seo tool".
mircea_popescu: basically tries to figure out how links work to fuck with it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i ran into problem trying to get mm6 to run on wine ; error message search (R6034 !) yielded NOTHING USEFUL. just endless pile of imbeciles doing the usual imbecile thing "oh, you got that ? so did i. i heard johnny also did or had a friend who did hey have you tried washing hands?"
mircea_popescu: and on like that forever. i long ago despaired of trying to google error messages.
asciilifeform: what could be hoped for when searching for wine error msg ? best you can ask for is to learn what aspect of weird undocumented winblowsism was never implemented in wine
mircea_popescu: but this isn't my point. go ahead, search yourself, it's just a pile of the usual chickens doing their usual chicken crrr-crrrr-crrrrrkkkk!
mircea_popescu: anyway, i got it flattened into shape, but because debugging the videocard not because googling the web.
mircea_popescu: (of course it's the videocard. IT FUCKING ALWAYS IS.)
asciilifeform: i can see that it does not work so well when there are chickens in the mix.
asciilifeform: but when xilinx's synth tool stubbornly refused to map the collective reset in FUCKGOATS to the global reset pin, i found the answer with, yes, a few hours of google.
mircea_popescu: that i can believe.
mircea_popescu: for the record, in my experience a good HALF of wine errors encountered in practice (man wants to play the games from the times when games were worth playing) are...
mircea_popescu: seriously, guess ?
asciilifeform: and, for instance, also had to outwit the 'ai' in the thing to keep it from 'recognizing state machine' and ADDING GATES wtfomfgh
mircea_popescu: BAD DIRECTORY STRUCTURE. no, might and magic 6 is NOT HAPPY to find itself in a directory including spaces, ampersands and unicode's mother on a stick.
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise
asciilifeform: natural habitat of winblows proggies had no such things.
mircea_popescu: dos really but yea
asciilifeform: (win9x+ had spaces but iirc that's all)
asciilifeform: my deep suspicion here is that there are actually at least ~two~ sets of www; one with chickens, and one without; and if you are doing something that is largely confined to the latter, you can almost pretend that the year is at worst 2001, and search - works, and forums - exist, etc.
mircea_popescu: yes, for while that lasts
mircea_popescu: (lasts, not because chickens will become xilinx fans, but because the last people who know how it works will die, and then their writings will... BE MOVED TO NEW DIRECTORIES. and that's that.)
asciilifeform: oh in re: 'golden 1990s': i recently contemplated making a game-playing box to 'unwind' with, and looked into where to get a decent flying-joystick. and apparently the best ones were made in 1990s, and today sought after, and rare...
mircea_popescu: lol get the mig one
asciilifeform: i would, but it'd need electric gimballs
mircea_popescu: ah they were all servo an' shit huh
asciilifeform: they were hydraulic, like a post-70s auto
asciilifeform: afaik -- still are
Framedragger: hah that reminds me, i'm too young to properly remember but after looking into this i've concluded that best 3d audio was in 90s (before creative labs patent-trolled aureal semiconductor). (maybe i already ranted about this).
mircea_popescu: aha. "servo".
Framedragger: so sad :(
asciilifeform: it's a.... stick.
asciilifeform: looks almost like something from a plumber's junk pile.
Framedragger: (it's sorta-kinda seeing a revival, with folks doing HRTF etc on bare CPU without need for audio chip accelerated whatever, but i believe there's still a.. niche. for someone whoever realizes that graphics isn't everything, etc.)
asciilifeform: other interesting tidbit about flying-sticks, apparently logitech et al conspired with microshit to have analogue 'gameport' support CUT from win7+. so that folx would be forced to buy chinese usb shitsticks.
asciilifeform: and, notably, the converter boxes don't work for high-end sticks
asciilifeform: because they needed 2-way comms
asciilifeform: to program the buttons
mircea_popescu: and this sort of shit exists because microsoft exists.
asciilifeform: and microshit forbade gameport, as, i quote, 'security risk'
asciilifeform: get that? SECURITY
mircea_popescu: it's in no way different from "usg bans smoking".
Framedragger: wtf, god, who did m$ not conspire with :/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right. because usg always says the same thing.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger socialist government is socialist government. you will find all its parts always everywhere it is.
mircea_popescu: there's no "i have a rat infestation but my rats have only the front paws and left ear"
mircea_popescu: a rat is a rat.
asciilifeform: the 2000s were almost ~defined~, microshitwise, by a massive 'purge' where folx were forced to retire peripherals (and, for that matter, whole comps) in PERFECT mechanical condition, to run new winblows
mircea_popescu: it's actually when the true microsoft hatred started.
asciilifeform: eh it was going strong with win95 already
mircea_popescu: before that, it was just this fastidious piece of crap which dumbasses ran to play solitaire
mircea_popescu: then those dumbasses got impregnated, and delivered, and those dumbass offspring run shitsoup to play unicode.
asciilifeform: 'your computer is dead, it was once so alive, do you regret installing windows 95!!'
mircea_popescu: it's also ~when i stopped paying any attention. last time i played games as they came out was 1999/2000
asciilifeform: there's an outfit called 'thrustmaster', well-known name in game controllers, that made a princely joystick in 1990s, 'f-22'. it was used in 'adult' simulators, the kind where one studies for exams, where you literally can hang upside down in gigantic barrel, etc. and guess what, there is no way to make it work with win7+ short of replacing entire internal guts.
asciilifeform: so the hilarious bit, thrustmaster made a 're-edition', for something like 500 usd, that externally looked great (made of iron, etc) but inside -- 100% chinese plastic rubbish
asciilifeform: falls apart if you so much as say unkind word to it...
asciilifeform: they 'went apple'.
asciilifeform: (re: the 'gigantic barrel' flight sims: there is actually an arcade of these at the american national airplane museum in washington, it's fiddybux for 5min. and worth every penny)
Framedragger: sounds pretty awesome.
asciilifeform: !~later tell adlai that page won't update until your crate ships
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/fake-news-today-wapo-works-to-undermine-trump-election-with-unsourced-assertions/ << Qntra - Fake News Today: WaPo Works To Undermine Trump Election With Unsourced Assertions
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: please to uneat mah qntra comment
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: cia & co. (i.e. ACTUAL usg) dealing dope, is old ooooold noose
asciilifeform: (and no, the figurehead officials, with their aol email accts, etc., don't have to be 'in' on it, wtf)
asciilifeform: the mother of all 'unhappenings', it has been known to anyone who gives half a shit, with all the proof you could possibly ask for from a mafia op where 'talkative' folks with hard proof get plugged immediately -- and still 'never happened.'
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: should solidify the evidence that dope dealing is a great financier of the cash variety
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
asciilifeform: if instead the money were in illicit nintendo cartridges -- they'd deal those.
asciilifeform: it's the ~only reason usg bothers to ban dope
thestringpuller: well you could deal sneakers...but the market depth isn't very large
asciilifeform: (cash cow -- would otherwise vanish.)
asciilifeform: there are no cia jets full of aspirin.
thestringpuller: well the morphine and cocaine markets are more of a smuggling game......
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sure, but interesting window into historic scale
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: ty saved
pete_dushenski: any idea why scarfed ? trilema links should be kosher
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Not yet, will take apart later. Perhaps it is the mispellings, however funny. Illiteracy is popular among spamzors.
thestringpuller: damn this reminds me of that frank lucas shit
thestringpuller: Smuggling dope in coffins from Vietnam.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform certainly happened, usg is primarily known as a drug dealing criminal organisation.
asciilifeform: when you cut away the noise, it's little else
asciilifeform: quite possible where most of its 'hard' currency came from
thestringpuller: mod6: "How a nigga gonna stay drug free, when Georgia Power won't give a nigga lights free"
mircea_popescu: at least back in the day when it was called "british empire".
asciilifeform: aha, was about to mention opiumwar
mats: white people have moved from enslaving a generation of chinese males with opium to ...
mats: enslaving a generation of white males with opium
mats: progress.
asciilifeform: mats: aha, see the mega-piece re 'autocolonization',
asciilifeform: !#s the answer lies in the sewers
a111: 13 results for "the answer lies in the sewers", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=the%20answer%20lies%20in%20the%20sewers
asciilifeform: spain lost its colonies, and autoimmunologically devoured itself, was the thesis.
pete_dushenski: thus all the fuss about fentanyl, which runs along the lines of "it's so potent and so profitable and killing all our youfs!", behind which the obvious inference is that only the state should be profiting and killing youths.
asciilifeform: and it happened quickly enough to be visible to naked eye
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the reason why crackdowns on 'prescription dope' is that it is not feeding hard currency to lizards, but fiatola to variably-connected fiatolists
pete_dushenski: it's branded as 'evil chinese opiod flooding in from kongkouver port' around here. so like reverse opium warz, ie. non-round eyes fiatolistas are profiting and this is a Bad Thing.
asciilifeform: well yes, that treatment is reserved for ru
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581952 << ircbot and logbot don't actually depend on each other in V sense, so there's not much i can do about it (unless i'm missing the issue)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 04:43 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581929 << http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot not to make more work for you, but the smooshing of ircbot and logbot apparently hosed your pre-graph catment
asciilifeform: which is why usg fought the afghan war
asciilifeform: -- to keep corridor open.
asciilifeform: (and the poppies -- growing. recall, were they growing in 2001 ?)
mircea_popescu: sure they were. from afghanistan to vietnam, all through.
pete_dushenski: 2001 was a dismal year for opium exports from afghanistan
asciilifeform: talibs banned poppy.
pete_dushenski: gwbush... fixed.
asciilifeform: then democratizers came and unbanned.
mircea_popescu: i recall they had a bumper crop right ?
asciilifeform: incidentally heroin was ~unknown in su before '90s maggotization.
mircea_popescu: yeah, turns out they tried to do an "arab oil shock", didn't work out
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582015 << i actually tried one of those against the svg, and without netlist knowledge it gets funky (edges don't properly touch nodes, because rounding)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 14:25 asciilifeform: discretized the floats, round the thicknesses to 2 places, etc
asciilifeform: phf: aha, it is not as simple as simply throwing away 'after 3rd decimal place' or the like.
asciilifeform: they gotta line up.
phf: but notably colorforth CAD that chuck moore wrote is all discrete units for these very reasons (there's a writeup somewhere in the CF pile)
asciilifeform: there are sane ways to do vector graphics
asciilifeform: i.e. pointedly NOT involving coordinate values specified at all !
asciilifeform: but only topology.
asciilifeform: i linked to henderson's paper here long ago
asciilifeform: and iirc clim has something of the kind (though i am the very last who would know the detail)
mircea_popescu: myeah, there is that.
asciilifeform: let's approach the problem bottom-up, as gedankenexperiment. it is np-complete problem to draw a polished, readable schematic from netlist only. what, therefore, is the minimal 'helping hand' that would let the machine draw schematic from netlist in polynomial time. that is the necessary format, and nothing else.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582064 << google search results are being rolled into "fake news" with calls for moar security
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 15:18 asciilifeform: then i suppose the rot - continues. rotten, maggoty google is still the closest thing i know of to working search engine for www...
asciilifeform: phf: unsurprisingly. and the eventual model is chinese google
asciilifeform: it still won't make sane search engine materialize out of the aether.
asciilifeform: i will admit to having serious doubts that building 'like google in 2001, and stays that way!111' is technologically possible -- it is an inherently centralized animal and will grow usg barnacles regardless of who builds it or where it is kept
phf: minimal helping hand is the kind of stuff you would manually do to an autorouted schematic, i.e. explicit xy placement for some of the components. algo can simply unpin each component in order and see if autolayout still results in same placement, in which case the explicit coordinate is unnecessary
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very possible dawg, just wot-index the web.
mircea_popescu: nevermind "pr", compute l-distance
asciilifeform: phf: this is correct, but i will point out that schematic is easier problem than pcb -- schematic traces take up 0 space, and the crossing penalty is merely aesthetic rather than physical
mircea_popescu: stuff that wasn't linked by anyone linked by anyone in l doesn't exist anyway.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the problem is that THEY get it from search !
asciilifeform: fuckgoats is made of motherfucking search!
mircea_popescu: (conversely : search is a political tool, nothing else. "i just want to" jwz doesn't exist in practice)
asciilifeform: phuctor also!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you use google.
asciilifeform: heathendom is where chip vendors, cad vendors, 1,000,001 things, live.
mircea_popescu: i've long ago decided stuff isn't going to be built to satisfy you ; but over your hairpulling objections.
trinque: itt alf shouts things we all know
phf: asciilifeform: in the worst case is there more required than a w/h for each defcomponent, x/y for each make-instance component and (list (x y) ...) for eah make-instance route?
asciilifeform: if someone wants to show me a parallel world where they are all in my wot -- i'm all ears
asciilifeform: and eyes.
mircea_popescu: nobody wants anything. the google i use will be l-distance based and that's all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you , in particular, could probably quite easily 'go knuth' or rms and use the net via courier.
trinque: there was a thread on how to approach the search problem, awaiting some intrepid guy yet.
asciilifeform: and not even notice much diff.
mircea_popescu: not even the point.
mircea_popescu: the point is - features do not appear TO satisfy. they appear BECAUSE we can.
mircea_popescu: that's the whole matter.
mircea_popescu: if you can use l-distance search, good for you. if you can't, use google. if you can't, you're fucked.
asciilifeform: that being said, some reasonaby standard way for wot folk to offer one another search of ~own~ wwwtron -- would be spiffy imho
mircea_popescu: we're going towards it, what with the slowly growing log processing.
mircea_popescu: currently we're de facto saving all named pages.
phf: asciilifeform: this goes back to the books thread we had long time ago. in-wot solution should exist and be up to tmsr standards. but if you're going to search for books in irradiated library ruins you just have to accept that you have to wear a hazmat and that you might get raped by feral locals.
asciilifeform: one of the things i would like to do in phuctor (when?? in peacetime...?) is to actually sort the mods by levenshtein distance
asciilifeform: and get subsequence search
mircea_popescu: not a meritless idea, that.
mircea_popescu: at least do all midspaces etc
asciilifeform: betcha i could finally demolish the 'dark matter' of weak-but-not-popped (by birthday-theorem) mods etc.
mircea_popescu: at least take bite out of it.
asciilifeform: and yes, phf has it
trinque: pg does that.
trinque: iirc asciilifeform is using pg.
mircea_popescu: he just restated what i said lol.
asciilifeform: a very limited (functionally) BUT fully tmsrtronic fallback for imperial crapolade -- is the ticket.
asciilifeform: trinque: no good, at least not as such, they are stored as strings of decimal digits.
asciilifeform: !#s doomed to rewrite
trinque: whole world is doomed to be rewritten.
trinque: and again.
mircea_popescu: anyway. this whole "google finds thing" is very much of the nature of "i couldn't get dxf to print ON ANYTHING svg conversion IS IMPOSSIBLE" etc.
mircea_popescu: alf fictitious world built out of alf confusing his habit with teh werld.
asciilifeform: it is made of the duct tape i have, not the duct tape i wish i had
asciilifeform: or how did it go.
trinque: you sink with the littoral you have
mircea_popescu: yeh, i get it, it "works for you". very good, but very irrelevant also.
asciilifeform: trinque: ...not the titanic you wish you had!
trinque: lel
mircea_popescu: continue with what worx!
mircea_popescu: back to the much more interesting thing of "minimal helping hand" :
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582124 << the best home planetarium mahcine is a toy made by nintendo in the 90s for going ~~$2000 "why you need a pinhole sky projection, when you have ipad???11"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 16:28 asciilifeform: oh in re: 'golden 1990s': i recently contemplated making a game-playing box to 'unwind' with, and looked into where to get a decent flying-joystick. and apparently the best ones were made in 1990s, and today sought after, and rare...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is a related and important (to rsa) mathematical problem, of 'how many bits of modulus give your guaranteed polynomial factoring'
mircea_popescu: what exactly is the source of complexity in all this ?
asciilifeform: phf: i had very spiffy planetarium for msdos, but sadly forgot what it was called
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an elementary case of travelling salesman
mircea_popescu: i mean... we pay $$$ to generate rng. how did the computer generate 5mb to pad what alf declares "minuscle" ?
asciilifeform: crossing lines make for a turdalicious schematic
asciilifeform: so you want to lay the lines so min cross.
asciilifeform: (think, recall children's game of 'help the mouse find the cheese' ? that's what a shit schematic looks like)
phf: asciilifeform: going back to my previous question though
mircea_popescu: no i get that part.
asciilifeform: phf: which?
mircea_popescu: <phf> asciilifeform: in the worst case is there more required than a w/h for each defcomponent, x/y for each make-instance component and (list (x y) ...) for eah make-instance route? <
asciilifeform: ah i missed
asciilifeform: phf, mircea_popescu : that's aaaalmost all of it. you also need, in especially large schematics, to collapse buses into single, thick lines (in 'eagle', normally blue, but it does not matter, so long as distinct) and the leadouts from said buses are normal nets, which are marked.
phf: to make a pcb out of a netlist, at worst case you need w/h of component, x/y placement of component, a list of x/y coords for each route (to indicate turns)? or there's something that i'm missing?
asciilifeform: (nobody wants to look at a 128bit bus as motherfucking 128 lines running in parallel!!!)
mircea_popescu: busses convention, yes.
asciilifeform: phf: pcb has track thicknesses, and also meanders (tracks whose shape is hard-specified)
asciilifeform: it also has vias
asciilifeform: vias connect 2 or more layers together.
asciilifeform: (and can also vary in shape)
asciilifeform: likewise holes exist.
asciilifeform: there are several hundred common sizes of drill.
mircea_popescu: none of this is looking terrible so far.
asciilifeform: it isn't impossible !
mircea_popescu: basically what he said + 3 specific elements (bus, via, hole)
asciilifeform: just arduous
asciilifeform: generally i dun deal with impossibles.
asciilifeform: to give some vague idea of complexity, 'eagle cad' is of about ~same binary mass as trb.
phf: a bus is a track (what i called route) that's reused by multiple components , and if track has coordinates for meanders and thickness you're there
asciilifeform: (was written in cpp.)
asciilifeform: phf: tracks also have variable geometry of turn
asciilifeform: (this is not optional)
asciilifeform: the problem is not so distinct from vector graphics in general.
asciilifeform: (and, on silkscreen side of things , in fact reduces directly to it )
phf: right, you kind of run into the fact that you have to have a set of CAD primitives underneath :/
asciilifeform: copper on pcb is only ~slightly~ narrrowed subset of possible vector drawing.
mircea_popescu: unrelatedly and i guess unhelpfully, i'm wondering if once specified as above, you don't also get a router for cheap (through implementing a sort of physics where routes attract each other and are repulsed by things etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i experimented with this personally
asciilifeform: it is a concept from molecular dynamics sims
asciilifeform: 'relaxation'
phf: that approach to routing is also described in SCHEME81 paper
asciilifeform: from what i can tell, 'eagle' actually used a similar algo in their (surprisingly good) autoroute.
mircea_popescu: and MOTHERFUCKING IDIOTS in this world! why the FUCK did argentina have to make "its own" power plug scheme, and for that matter why the fruck does usb exist! there are two types of connectors in this world - those who you can plug not looking and those who, no matter what you do, you CAN NOT plug not looking at them!
mircea_popescu: WHO DARES make the latter sort! ever! GAH!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they use australian plug iirc
mircea_popescu: they use their ugly mother's cunts is what they use.
asciilifeform: at least asciilifeform went there with australia adapter, and.. it fit
mircea_popescu: eu style plug with the rounded prongs slides in by itself. this inept lamellar bs does not
asciilifeform: (oddly enough, the hotel sockets ALSO fit ru plug !!)
asciilifeform: i had a ru plug, left over in bag from trip to ro, and it fit !
asciilifeform: 220v too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'new usb' is symmetric but i suppose it is too-late.
asciilifeform: (usb per se has absolutely imho lethal problems but i would count the horrid plug dead last on the list of these)
phf: (in random luls, since btcbase doesn't track renames for the longest time i thought that we had an actual "oglafbot" running. i saw BingoBoingo post an update a few times and wondered "what happened to oglafbot")
mircea_popescu: this is functioning as intended.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha exactly, relaxation
mircea_popescu: anyway, symmetry isn't even it. must be ~self-guiding~.
phf: emacs now has concurrency!11 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-12/msg00378.html there aren't many details on what it's going to do but there's at least one review article that's going "wtf" http://www.lunaryorn.com/posts/a-blast-from-the-past-the-tale-of-concurrency-in-emacs.html
phf: i'm curious about this accelerated rate of emacs shittification. it's like there's new of some or other modernization every other week
mircea_popescu: phf the "now has!" "it's not clear what the thing it "has" is GOING TO do" is already 100% graham-retardation
phf: representative zaretskis delivering on election promises of догоним и перегоним
mircea_popescu: in other news i got everything working : mm6, 7, planescape torment, the works.
trinque: the fuck is emacs going to do with *entirely blocking* threads ?
phf: 25% increase in yield since last year! all participant developers are awarded national medal of yield increasing worker initiative!
asciilifeform: 'There’s unanimous agreement that Emacs needs better support for concurrency, and indeed over the last few years Tom Tromey (of ELPA fame) and others worked ....' << orly, unanimous
asciilifeform: i dun recall anybody asking me
asciilifeform: anybody ask you, phf ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes ?
asciilifeform: et al ?
asciilifeform: and elpa! l0l! the 'your shitplugin has 1,001 shitdeps' repo!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582363 << same thing threads were supposed to achieve in bitcoin. idiot unix supplies such worthless nonblocking i/o system that threads in unix proggies (discounting actual number crunchers) exist largely so that they can sit, sadly, waiting for blocking i/o...
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 21:44 trinque: the fuck is emacs going to do with *entirely blocking* threads ?
trinque: yeah I know, the "gevent" model, or javascript XHR for another shining example
trinque: emacs already has async external processes
trinque: dunno what else will be feeding my emacs tons of IO
asciilifeform: possibly no one will believe me, but unlike most 'ideological' emacsists, i do not abuse it as irc client / wwwtron / reactor controller / etc
asciilifeform: so i never had this 'problem'.
asciilifeform: (even as text editor, i use it RELUCTANTLY, because there is literally no functional alternative for the sorts of things that i edit)
asciilifeform: it is an abominable editor, except when compared to the others.
trinque: abominable window manager too, except idem
trinque is guilty of living in emacs, but does not need this pretend concurrency
asciilifeform: re wm, idk, i like ratpoison
asciilifeform: so far every alternative i've tried, incl. the author's later works, fell short.
asciilifeform: i dun need a 500MB process for keeping track of motherfucking windows.
asciilifeform: esp. since they ~never move
mircea_popescu: well i don't much use emacs so. it must be why.
ben_vulpes: antpool again with the weirdo block size variance
mircea_popescu has been playing planescape wiff gurl, cares not of the troubles of this world from his cloud o' bliss
asciilifeform: the paper planescape?!
asciilifeform: or torment
asciilifeform is testing FUCKGOATSen
mircea_popescu: any shitty ones ?
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582084 << i was just thining about the happy accident that is mimisbrunnr spewing noise into the google hole
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 15:26 mircea_popescu: inbcidentally asciilifeform as per that discussion of how much it costs to index etc, phuctor is a total google poison.
ben_vulpes: and how it needs moar cross referencing links obvs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no duds so far.
asciilifeform: 'A language designed to live in the paper-tape world had to have some major constraints. First, paper tape is slow. Really slow. And punching tape is a miserable process. So you really wanted to keep things as short as possible. So the syntax of TECO is, to put it mildly, absolutely mind-boggling. Every character is a command. And I don't mean "every punctuation character", or "every letter". Every character is a command. Letters, nu
asciilifeform: mbers, punctuation, line feeds, control characters... Everything. But despite the utterly cryptic nature of it, it was good. It was very good. ...'
ben_vulpes: mmm, classic
asciilifeform: apparently i somehow built this again.
asciilifeform: i suppose idea is fairly obvious.
asciilifeform: though, reading the manual ( http://www.copters.com/teco.html ) it was apparently quite complicated, so perhaps -- not.
asciilifeform: http://www.finseth.com/craft << the actual megaclassic of the subj. i have it in dead tree, and did not know it were on www in proper text...
asciilifeform: ^ worth keeping
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al ^
ben_vulpes: nifty
ben_vulpes: i swear that apple is varying the time at which it presents its "are you ready to upgrade now?" modal to me
ben_vulpes: ('ooh it's 530 on a weekday and he's at the place where he last consented to upgrade xcode. maybe he's sauced enough to say yes this time!')
ben_vulpes: NO FUCKERS
ben_vulpes: https://github.com/tiimgreen/github-cheat-sheet#ignore-whitespace << because what i want is a diff program that doesn't show the whole diff
ben_vulpes: in other "shit rubros say"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: have you thought about firewalling off the crapple upgrade servers ?
asciilifeform: it works for microshit boxen
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582413 << they don't show it to me on 10.9, possibly because i'm now a heathen beyond redemption
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 01:35 ben_vulpes: i swear that apple is varying the time at which it presents its "are you ready to upgrade now?" modal to me
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582407 << i tried living in TECO at some point (they way i've done with a bunch of other text editors, like acme) and it was beyond even my patience. it's definitely an emacsism in a sense of "this part makes no sense, but that's how the elders did it, so stfu"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 01:07 asciilifeform: i suppose idea is fairly obvious.
ben_vulpes: 10.9 heathen beyond redemption utterlol
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have not
ben_vulpes: will consider
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582380 <<< what did you dislike about vim?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 22:37 asciilifeform: it is an abominable editor, except when compared to the others.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 04:47 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582380 <<< what did you dislike about vim?
asciilifeform: and no decade+ of my elisp (e.g., hungry-arrows, why the FUCK should it take me >1 keypress to move across whitespace), etc
asciilifeform: no autoindent, no paren matching, fuck, what ~does~ it have
asciilifeform: i also fucking ~loathe~ modal editors
mircea_popescu saw this coming.
asciilifeform: i might like vi more if it weren't also associated in my head with the years i toiled as a sysadmin slave...
asciilifeform: if stuck on a box on mars with no civilized editors, i'd sooner use 'nano'
asciilifeform: (pico, etc)
davout: aha
asciilifeform: that being said, 'hell is other people's' elisp...
davout: if you're using more than a keystroke to move accross whitespace, or don't have auto-indent you're misusing it, but yeah, just curious. not trying to sell anything here
asciilifeform: autoindent is intensely language-specific
asciilifeform: incidentally iirc someone wrote somethign vaguely like slime for vi, someone with stronger stomach than i oughta try it, see...
davout: some come built-in i think, some others you have to inoculate
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