mircea_popescu: and yes, both gerousia and roman senate come off the first branch.
mircea_popescu: (for the anthropocurious : there's three types of primitive civilisation known to either theory or practice. all three had a female hut, where the women did their woman shit. one of them had a male hut where they got drunk and dragged unwilling sexual partners by the hair. another had a male hut where they mostly sat idly about. the final one had no male hut at all, like the chimps, and thereby is very dubiosly a civilisation
mircea_popescu: direct calque off the inept old woman "oh, tell all the young women not to go to the rape hut!!!" except , of course, the sort of girl that'd listen nobody wants there in the first place.
mircea_popescu: moar win-win has scarcely ever been seen in the history of human stupidity.
mircea_popescu: it's exactly how it goes, too. and the funny thing is, the braindead vat dwellers actually go by that.
mircea_popescu: "that weird cult that calls everything by unprintable names inexplicably because we try to run off with any other names they use hur durr"
mircea_popescu: i also do not expect we will ever call anything outside of the "pussygraber" "yesmeansanal" etc antipantsuit set
mircea_popescu: i eagerlyexpect the imperial "fuckgoats" bowdlerization
mircea_popescu: funny how nobody from the "concerned" peanut gallery is there on the congress floor uninvited every day, "hey guise, remember that time when oyu decided to rechristian french fries ? what happened to that ??? I THINK THE USD IS WORTHLESS!!!"\
mircea_popescu: lemme guess, it conveniently makes fries on the side ? LIBERTY fries ?
mircea_popescu: and in other overachievers, http://68.media.tumblr.com/563433a61a5162c0b7e7acad51ca9ed7/tumblr_ojxn4tCUnT1s5m6tyo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was my first thought when the qntra thing appeared but when went to look for it, LOST IT AGAIN!11
a111: Logged on 2017-07-10 14:59 phf: https://archive.is/lyT2j << "The American college graduate allegedly beaten to death by a gang of 10 people in Greece was an aspiring entrepreneur who was visiting the country to launch his own fashion line."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-10#1681164 << amusingly this was discussed a coupla times in the logs, naive "owner" in thailands.
phf: https://archive.is/lyT2j << "The American college graduate allegedly beaten to death by a gang of 10 people in Greece was an aspiring entrepreneur who was visiting the country to launch his own fashion line."
shinohai: Maybe new owner is busy znorting the profitz ?
BingoBoingo: Well, gotta remember post-modernism and "social justice" were the actual KGB/Soviet plot to undermine west
shinohai: https://dayton.craigslist.org/sys/6201338395.html "you can always sell the bitcoin and buy ether."
mircea_popescu: in the same vein, the early 1900s investigations into the meaning and structure of number resulted in a correctly complicated notion, from riemann functions to cantor's sets and so on. this is at great variance with non-fields like "artificial intelligence" or say alf's favourite, postmodern qm (say string theory or w/e) -- which evidently are incorrectly complicated even if it's not always evident where exactly.
mircea_popescu: "if you're going to complicate -- complicate like latin, don't complicate like puritan society or any other barbarian non-people"
mircea_popescu: anwyay, perhaps best historical example of the "problem -- ill posed" bit is the history of the sewing machine.
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/#comment-122353 << alf did you miss the part where color is a cultural construct and mircea_popescu does it differently?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY << Original Sport!!!
asciilifeform: trinque: if you're the hero who knows how to standardize $subj without birthing a microshitian shitfest - go, do.
trinque: blind spot right where one node talks to another
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 16:14 asciilifeform: i dun get the fixation with 'universal db language for all walks of life'
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680990 << do you not also get the fixation with "all citizens shall speak latin"
mircea_popescu: http notably gets this half-right : there's no such thing as an error message the server ever expects to see from a client, such as i dunno, "this page has porn on it, unacceptable, send me another version" or whatever.
mircea_popescu: i am ok with chunks of machine word size, ie, quantify data by n bits rather than by 1 bit.
phf: well, then you're basically in the whole "nobody's ever going to need more than 64bytes of block size!!1"
mircea_popescu: phf i would be friendly to the notion of a machine word yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this knot can be cut in exactly 2 ways - the 'ffa' and 'gmp', if you will
phf: arbitrarily sized numbers are a variable sized type. gotta figure out ~some~ way of packing them. you're essentially left with type tagged size variation (if a byte is 0, then next struct is 8byte, if a byte is 1, then next struct is 16byte), but at the end you still will end up falling back to "read this number to know how many bytes to read"
mircea_popescu: or to put this belaboured thing in different words : if your data exchange protocol includes the concept of "error message", you do not in fact have a data exchange protocol.
mircea_popescu: but the problem becomes really complex when you consider "bitcoin block index" is as of right now "positive integer under 474974", and won't stay that way for long.
mircea_popescu: myeah. well, no point in rehashing the suck.
phf: well, wire/remote is cavalier with byte packing, it knows how to pack various sized types, but variable sized stuff is probably not the most bullet proof (i vaguely suspect it's similar to bitoind, i.e. <typetag><count><item><item>...
mircea_popescu: so more like all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum positive "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 16:19 phf: (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
mircea_popescu: moreover, and here's where it gets biting : if we go with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1681006 ; which i expect we should, you can end up with implicit types. "you asked me for the 999999th bitcoin block, fucker". what about that ? you will need bounds adnotation yes ?
phf: generally "things that might have different size" is not a trivial thing to pack. (that's why there's complexity in ASN.1, because of variable run length encodings)
phf: it was an example of what "byte packing protocol" is. designing proper byte packing protocol is left as an exercise to the reader
phf: depends on the protocol
mircea_popescu: alright. i thought that was actually on the table.
phf: like i said elsewhere, sexp is not a data exchange format, it's a way of writing common lisp code. various extensions are there to facilitate the process of programming. it's a folly to look at sexp and go "oh, so simple! lets just store our data in it! lets rpc with it too!" because that's not really what it's designed for
mircea_popescu: did i misread the intention ?
phf: well, i put it there ~intentionally~
phf: did you intentionally put #. or it just happened to be there? i think that you're looking at that sexp and you recognize its form, but #. is just some fluff?
mircea_popescu: for the curious : yes, i also have this problem in speech, especially when discussing complicated things with complicated women, and the solution THERE is the sort and short rule. which in relevant part says here that "(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3)" could NEVER be interpreted as "(+ 1 1)" because "(+ 1 1)" was a shorter statement of that and it wasn't used.
phf: not with asn.1, because it's a serialization format, not actual RPC. you can certainly do the call with wire/remote, and no "macros" involved in the process
mircea_popescu: phf serialization can at best be a packaging. the issue is, can i say "here's a function that takes a parameter and outputs "your mom's a python" and the data payload is function(is that you daddy)" in order to convey the string "your mom's a python" ?
phf: asn.1 is nothing of the kind, nor is cmucl's wire. it's your typically byte packed binary formats
mircea_popescu: if you;'re going to have adnotated data and the adnotations are macros and who the fuck knows what goes on, you've got a miserable protocol.
phf: most lisp rpc is done using serialization/deserialization protocols. personally, that is also my preferred method, something like asn.1 or the format cmucl's wire uses
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: y'know, even a traditional vonneumann processor can work with immutable code, if roms were actually still available on the market...
mircea_popescu: i need someone hacking on my bitcoin like i need someone feather-tickling my spleen.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, sexp ~is~ code, primarily it's for writing your programs, not ~storing~ data. there's no such thing as sexp internally
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, v is in the same direction.
mircea_popescu: phf hence the earlier discussion.
mircea_popescu: the best and handiest way to illustrate this folly is, "imagine if your vlc tried to mpfhf every film you played"
mircea_popescu: phf and the reason for this is that it tries to take it as code.
phf: well, i brought up the whole mutability of readtable, because that fact usually trips up novices when dealing with lisp reader. "oh i can just use sexps for everything" and then you do (format ...) on your largish data structure and you get something that's rather non-trivial to parse (an example would be the WOT.sexp)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it never caught on for large machines, i will leave the reason for this as an exercise for reader
mircea_popescu: but i can say you not merely should, but absolutely must. the cornerstone of wire protocol is a firm, protocol-derived guarantee of there being no such thing as bad data.
mircea_popescu: phf i don't know if you can or if you can't, not sufficiently experienced with the thing.
phf: can't you say the same about lisp? you establish your data format (i.e. a READTABLE that you're going to use for reading it), at which point modifications to that readtable makes for broken machine. the standard specifies how, e.g. number reader works, so if your readtable uses standard number reader 5 is 5
mircea_popescu: everything sucks where there can be such a thing as "this is the table of possible inputs and these are the three that set it on fire".
mircea_popescu: the very possiblity of even having such a thing as "broken data", by eg naming your kid "-- DROP table students;" is why i agree with the sql sucks sentiment.
mircea_popescu: phf but that is, for the needs of this mental model, a broken machine. not broken data.
phf: i mean, any system can be tweaked into "number five to have the capacity to really be four". pretty much a standard exercise "oh tweak this memory location and now all your TRUEs are FALSE111"
mircea_popescu: i STILL don't want my number five to have the capacity to really be four.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless...
phf: mircea_popescu: well, in that case there's no value to lisp ~at all~, since the bulk of lisp advantage comes from this fact. but pretending that you somehow can get not-this with a turing machine results in what we have now
asciilifeform: phf: lenat being the patron saint of'em
mircea_popescu: in the end, here's mp's heresy : lisp never caught on for none of the usually discussed reasons. lisp never caught on because that core advertised principle is both fucking dumb and fucking useless.
phf: lisp has its own kind of trisector: a person whose mind is so blown by the whole code/data thing that he's convinced one can build "real AI" using a handful of self modifying macros
mircea_popescu: it's bad enough for my letters abx to have the capacity to really be smileyface or whatever. and i dun like that, either.
mircea_popescu: yes, but i don't want my number five to have the capacity to really be four.
phf: mircea_popescu: that whole data/code equivalence is one of the core (advertised) principles
mircea_popescu: or the same money it could be excel/emacs (for what is emacs but excel with built in virtual basic ?)
mircea_popescu: phf your excited attempts at playiung with candi's ass, back when she was a virgin, is a plain and very obvious indication of what ~every lisp hacker knows but none dare admit, or think about. it's a fundamentally dirty language in that it doesn't, actually, admit there is even in principle differences between data and code. "oh, it's an array, and here's the associated macro, so this .dat file is actually turing complete". f
phf: there's ISLISP standard, which was supposed to create a subset of multiple different lisps (like common lisp and scheme, but also eulisp, since designed by europeans). i don't think anyone (particularly sexp library authors for other languages) ever tried to conform to it. typical solution is to have a JSON-like subset of sexps, so that you can express (FOO "abc" 2), i.e. symbol, string, number and list and nothing else
phf: express the full range of possible array settings, etc.)
phf: (common lisp sexps are backed by a full blown reader, with multiple non-trivial dispatch macros, so for example '(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3) is a valid sexps that's read as '(1 2 3), i.e. (+ 1 1) is evaluated at read time. there's a dispatch for structs, like #S(FOO :A 1 :B 2) results in a structure foo with two slots a and b set to 1 and 2 respectively, but there's no corresponding constructor for classes. there's a reader for arrays, but that one doesn't let you
mircea_popescu: and in other "i have no idea if alf will think this is a human face or no", http://68.media.tumblr.com/ec2b3b3a67382908205ac498e1fc22ab/tumblr_o84ox08CwI1uu3p4bo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: and this is a mature question, ripe for the unburdening, not least of all because http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680788
mircea_popescu: if you recall the data exchange protocol was moving away from csv towards lispenstrings anyway.
mircea_popescu: i don't see why they couldn't.
mircea_popescu: vorwarts, to the uci!
phf: (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
mircea_popescu: the problem is again one of synthesis, someone gotta sit down and write that scary text. not the one to which there's nothing to add, but the one from which there's nothing left to remove. "here's how a discovery protocol goes".
mircea_popescu: phf no, i ~know~. he doesn't expect, i don't expect either, but the difference is im being actively optimistic about it.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think you could design a pretty straightforward discovery protocol once you decided on the wire. we can see this process with irc bots here
mircea_popescu: phf you see the problem in ahead of time yes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except that the monster lang never fits in any head.
mircea_popescu: you want me to sit here and say "there's fifty different protocols in this box" ?
mircea_popescu: FITS IN HEAD MOTHERFUCKER
asciilifeform: it adds mountain of complexity and in the end is still 'wrong tool for every job'
phf: in the WIRE/REMOTE approach you connect to instance, and do a function call that the author told you about ahead of time. in one case it might (gossipd:all-message-since timestamp) in another (ben-vulpes-block-chainer:get-block n)
mircea_popescu: mp's rule of computing design : if you know it's gonna be bad, take the trouble to make it actually horrible.
asciilifeform: i dun get the fixation with 'universal db language for all walks of life'
mircea_popescu: why not just make a datastruct polymorpher then, and have the program just come up with random shit each run
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: depends on the item, neh
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you are running a computer. (not crap, an actual tmsr is happy with machine). when i start mine up, i want to get some bits from you. maybe it's "what sina said about mp on gossipd". maybe it's "the nth block in the current blockchain". maybe it's whatever it is. how does it do this ?
mircea_popescu: otherwise yes, metals conduct electricity tyvm.
phf: same as you would do it locally. it's a transparent rpc, not a specified one. so either the operator does manual discovery, or you define a discovery convention. (and then there's middle ground, where you use standard tooling, like code to list packages and symbols to do discovery for you)
mircea_popescu: in a very harsh example : i somehow knew how to say "like ukr girls" above. i found this out somehow. how does the lisp instance find out what to say so it's meaningful ?
mircea_popescu: phf how does one node discover the other node's symbolic representation of the universe ?
phf: cmucl has REMOTE and WIRE packages which let you do rpc between two instances (naturally it's bit rotted in the trunk, and only working version at this point is on my branch). it's a combination of simple "spin up server/connect to server", serializer/deserializer and an rpc convention.
mircea_popescu: dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY
mircea_popescu: a) you know you're going to have a schism and b) you know nobody's going to manage to evaluate the claims, present or future, for any kind of coherent truth value.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680947 << actually this is interesting, and i mean from a metaperspective. consider, randomly defined cult, they come up with some crankwagen, whatever it may be, say the mpfhf or the correct way rto diet or to cure cancer or w/e. at which point ranking member promises to come out with proof it's shit, and the result is ?
asciilifeform: lol another python
mircea_popescu: i suspect gypsydom is a lot like brazildom. they dumped all the slaves in there, the results are rather varied, but strong contingent of fair brasileiras, even if lots and lots of mulattos.
mircea_popescu: also, there's not so much darker gypsy association. one of mah first youthful loves was this blonde horseriding gypsy girl from the danube delta. hot as hell, and about as dark as hillary clinton.
phf: right then, that's what i thought
mircea_popescu: phf romanian girls look almost exactly like ukrainian girls. so is it normal for them to look turkish ? mnope.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 08:36 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, i took girl + car out on a survey of local brothels tonite.
phf: well, there's no solution, just same thing you said :)
phf: asciilifeform: literally five lines lower in the logs
phf: well, one thing that ascii said "don't operate at a byte level", might also be the reason why lisp version is slower. bit vectors are stores as octet arrays, so tweaking single bit pulls a whole octet, does bit twiddling on it, and then puts it back. presumably can be sped up if one were to figure out how to work over an octet at a time
mircea_popescu: i don't see a closed form. then again, it's new.
phf: presumably as asciilifeform keeps implying you could rewrite mp's fhf in some closed form that does account for these issues, but..
mircea_popescu: somehow peeps got the idea it's "unfair", like little kids playing a game, to use computers in certain ways that expose them for being mere machines, rather than your girlfriend. such as making them do things like fhf.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm very much convinced that the various "oh, it's the same thing really" bad choices hash designers and implementers make, very much typified by the above "machine word so as to '''elegantly''' avoid these problems" very much plays into nsa needs. it's again that same old convenience that makes the usg usg.
mircea_popescu: phf that was the intention at least.
mircea_popescu: what "bitcoin nodes" currently do is a very shitty attempt at just this. and they are as autonomous as you are conical, also because they fail to correctly implement this.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 04:11 trinque: concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate...
phf: in vaguely related annoyances screw/half-screw i*POS is the likeliest candidate for overflows, and it does where your fixnum is 32 bit. go version sidesteps that issue by being 64-bit
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680544 << nope, in fact my "optimized" one i.e. the version where cmucl doesn't complain about unknown types with (speed 3) (safety 0), is about twice as slow as Go version. i'm curious why that would be the case, but haven't had a chance to investigate.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> lol lynched to death. what other kinds are there, lynched to orgasm ? << Well there's the incomplete version which is just a beating
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 03:18 mircea_popescu: can take the ram from the crapple and put it in the pc or camera or w/e
BingoBoingo: " Huel @gethuel Jun 19 A new concept in food - 100% vegan with protein, fatty acids, fiber and 27 essential vitamins and minerals." << Poor naming. "Huel" is mostly known to USians as the name of the fat pickpocket on some "prestige" tv show.
trinque: http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ << maybe you've got 5 minutes of hijacked vat reddit console before the maintenance bots come recycle the cylinder
trinque: "concurrency" in the sense that you handle scads of independent requests for the same item, also complete nonsense.
trinque: why huck just to me either, can turn on the luby hose and let multiple folks drink together, when they have the same question
trinque: "connect" too, is not quite right, as it would be a superior model for me to huck a request to you, which ~maybe~ you get, and which ~maybe~ you drop on the floor at wire speed, and maybe you huck me something back, if you want.
trinque: concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate...
trinque: there, gopher wins against http in that it enforces a strict tree
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680872 << no, would among other things, have a standard for expressing structure metadata. see information_schema for a bad example in idiotlandia, or WSDLs for even worse, or...
mircea_popescu: and in other "unlike my mom, i'm actually good at what i do", http://68.media.tumblr.com/f4278e64cf59227db1d18fe4e0c5459a/tumblr_opv3456GKV1qilbqfo1_500.gif
asciilifeform: not that the current 'standardized memory' wintel crapolade is so hot.
mircea_popescu: and yes, very much pre-tmsr times the lords were stuck with this "well we gotta cypherpunk, ie, pretend nothing can ever happens -- because if anything were to happen it's straight to vessenes' scam foundation"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah yeah, it wasn't the width, it was that they didn't actually have standardized memory in any sense, or any concept of actula machine word
asciilifeform: ( the other detail, of course, is that the idea of standardization went along with a distinct odor of 'lion and lamb sit down to agree on dinner' in those days . or consider microshit-led 'opendocument committee' etc in more recent times. )
asciilifeform: BUT above may explain the lack of 'standardization enthusiasm' in those days.
asciilifeform: naturally you can still stuff these down a wire. and the box, of course, did so ( to disk, tape, 'chaosnet', etc.)
asciilifeform: but rather, e.g., bolix 36bit word had 4 type bits, that actually change what the contents mean ( and can create transparent 'wormholes' to elsewhere in memory, for hardware gc) and hence not actually meaningful on iron that doesn't have same mechanism
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680868 << recall that the variation was not as simple as 'this one here has 8bit byte but this one - 11, but each one simply represents a 2**n-1 range of uint'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680872 << amusingly enough, these links ~all either 404 or lead to shithub
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:53 trinque: so we agree that this thing called "database" is really distinct tools which some idiot welded together
sina: hmmm. I see that the point I was trying to raise yesterday has been discussed previously at high temperature: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641472
mircea_popescu: and meanwhile at the rancho correcto cocksucko, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a0f030f386bd4c45ef2b7b40bedc133e/tumblr_mr6dx93W6E1rxn0tjo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: i dun have a general suggestion, perhaps just sit down with the whole thing and make an actual data diagram thing ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 20:17 trinque: anyhow, curious what the lisp graybeards have to say about CLOS over the wire
sina: mircea_popescu: suggestions on avoiding ad-hoc datatypes? one idea I was thinking was for example rather than ../messages/<msg_hash> file with contents "sender,delivered_by,message", have a directory ../messages/<msg_hash>/sender|delivered_by|message files?
mircea_popescu: there's standard cunt operation without standard cunt width.
asciilifeform: ( and probably could not be in the standard, such things as, e.g., width of the machine word, were not universal constants )
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc this is one of the things the symbolics folx had to make a proprietary gadget for, because it is nowhere in the standard
trinque: I'd say folks yes, use sqlite because they did not reason the program out completely before beginning to write code, but they often use postgresql as a messaging platform, RPC, or what have you
trinque: what it lacks (at least as part of the CLOS standard, afaik) is a standard for how one CLOS program shares objects and methods with another, whether on same box or across the network.
trinque: and mentioning lisp, CLOS is by my lights, the best taxonomy building tool that exists.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 07:21 sina: I dunno much about lisp, but I think lisp handles this better in the sense you write state into the "lisp machine" and can flush that entire state out to disk and read it therefrom as well?
trinque reaches the top, salutes
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "i don't know, baby... we'll have to ask your father..." << lol. cuckdad may want in too!
mircea_popescu: but in other teen issues, http://68.media.tumblr.com/ab5bbea07c6980664a38d8f081687c4b/tumblr_o8m5pi5a2C1uw19aqo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: ftr, it dun fix it, colon takes the day off after you fuck it.
mircea_popescu: "i don't know, baby... we'll have to ask your father..."
BingoBoingo: Really gotta give the urban youth directions on finding and identifying Jewish neighborhoods
mircea_popescu: "the strong take from the weak, and the smart take from the strong. the weak'd better have great cocksucking skills to close teh cycle."
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 15:17 mircea_popescu: and this model ENTIRELY explains all of the "luminaries". werner koch worked the feeder-chumper cycle. stallman worked the feeder-chumper cycle. curtis yarvin worked the etcetera.
mircea_popescu: because hjey, THAT is the real issue yes ?
BingoBoingo: AHA, he is being called out for "feed[ing] into preconceived notions about Jews and alleged Jewish control of the banks and finance." << Jews at Anti Defamation league
mircea_popescu: wait, he's trying to turn the horde of aging "trynna make it as a pimp" blacks into good consumers with credit cards ?
BingoBoingo: You wanna know whats more important than throwin away money at a strip club? Credit/ You ever wonder why Jewish people own all the property in America? This how they did it. << Line by noted White Supremacist Jay-Z
mircea_popescu: but alright, let's get back to basics then. http://68.media.tumblr.com/e5bd4ea1b58dcd51b5e907a09fd4de7c/tumblr_osjxauzx6I1v2rgrno1_1280.gif
sina: rather each privkey has an additional top-of-file line which states either "-available", "-bogus" or the peer name
sina: still needs a tad work to make the code a bit easier to read and finish model.delete_peer()
mircea_popescu: so there you go
sina: fair. In any case I think I must retain for the purpose of "chaff" feature
mircea_popescu: because absence of key is dispositive, whereas scribblings on the key is at best indicative.
sina: if you're an enemy capable of capturing a gossiptron and knowing of the things, why wouldn't you?
sina: in the model you proposed he would be able to anyway right, just by seeing which symlinks are in keys/bogus
sina: so I guess I do need to store them
sina: oh. I might use them for bogus data sendage though or something
mircea_popescu: well yes, the program needn't be able to distinguish them from keys generally. bogus is an operator designation.
sina: I dunno much about lisp, but I think lisp handles this better in the sense you write state into the "lisp machine" and can flush that entire state out to disk and read it therefrom as well?
sina: because I definitely remember in the past thinking thoughts along the lines of "filesystem is a ~btree, rdbms is a ~btree, why am I ~btree on top of ~btree", and reading discussions about this topic on the internet, and feel like I remember *someone* mentioning something about this
sina: one interesting thing is that I thought there would be some databases implemented as flat files, but I can't seem to find any
mircea_popescu: right. well, do you wish to acquire some ? ~what the whole discussion reduces to.
mircea_popescu: in which process you will have for the first time read and tried to understand it, and likely discovered some things re greatness.
sina: agreed and understood, I am just subtly trying to make the point of "making me implement a shittier sqlite"
mircea_popescu: sina they do not protect against this by design, but by implementation.
mircea_popescu: depending on how the whole scheme is implemented, yes.
sina: two assignment attempts might list the same available key
mircea_popescu: sina to find out which keys aren't assigned you also keep a /keys/available then
mircea_popescu: sina there is no such "any" in computing.
mircea_popescu: if you wish to find out what key you can assign, you gotta enumerate the db, though ideally you keep this in ram rather than in the db
mircea_popescu: well, if you wish to assign a SPECIFIC key, then you must edit the /keys/assigned/key.symlink reference to point to it.
sina: I dunno about this suggestion. for example if I want to assign an available key, I need to list the keys in /keys, then subtract from that list the list of keys in /keys/assigned and /keys/bogus ?
mircea_popescu: now, whether this works irl or noit, we do not really know
sina: but what about bogus and available keys? keys/available/???.key and keys/bogus/???.key, so the two questions would be, 1. what are they named, 2. how to transition states, e.g. from available to assigned
sina: for the assigned keys, it seems fine to have a directory like key/name_of_peer_assigned.key
sina: so there are 3 "states" for a key, 1. available, 2. bogus, 3. assigned
sina: mircea_popescu: do you have 5-10m to discuss the filesystem thing re gossipthing
sina: oh yeah, the other day, inspired by ben_vulpes wotpaste I made this in golang https://github.com/sinner-/tinypaste
sina: mircea_popescu: "self" just signifies the message was published into the local messages list by the local client itself. suggestions are open for other ways to signify same, e.g. if you think the entry should simply be blank
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:11 mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!
mircea_popescu: and in other gateways, http://68.media.tumblr.com/b83ff7af950e69b8ed32a2bb05c1ee0c/tumblr_opsq7iDY4U1v5qo9eo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: the sheer gap between what is extant and what is possible - is, i suspect, unfathomable to the uninitiated and the weak of heart.
asciilifeform: i just counted gpg 1.4.10 : 156,436 loc -- and that ain't counting the autoconf liquishit, or the libs it pulls in
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:35 sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
asciilifeform: ( for instance, i go and run on a crapple , with slower clock but larger l1, and get 1/7th the interval spent )
a111: Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
asciilifeform: but today when asciilifeform goes and , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 , the measurement is only useful standing next to similar from same box
asciilifeform: in the days of, e.g., commodore64, with 100 mil people having SAME pcb, within 5% tolerance of crystals -- time measurements were immediately meaningful.
asciilifeform: i.e. when asciilifeform measures his $proggy runs, he is measuring at the same time a possibly unreproducible combo of ssd+ram+cpu+...
asciilifeform: incidentally i regularly go looking for 'performance numbers' for various , and it is very frustrating, largely from the ~total nonexistence of anything like standardized hardware setup
mircea_popescu: geting hard numbers on file system performance, something everyone involved in data storage for the past 30 years has been vehehehery deliberately hiding, is certainly better use of time than, for instance, attempting to reason with djb jzw & all.
asciilifeform: imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.
asciilifeform: there is the use of time, of which king and slave alike has finite qty. but i can only suggest to folx, how to use it. if they want to build perpetuum mobile to 'measure whether possible' -- or trisect angle -- let'em
mircea_popescu: there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
asciilifeform: imho best use of measurement, is to measure unknowns. rather than to try to determine, with ruler, how many degrees a triangle's internals add up to.
mircea_popescu: and they will be redone forever.
mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally, and irrecoverably, flawed. measurements are the only basis of thought.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with measuring the world around. an attempt to explain why this is a waste of time isn't really going to be entertained.