Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2014-10-26 | 2014-10-28 → ↓
undata: the original pondering was "how to turn the blockchain into a giant torrent site"
assbot: #bitcoin-assets deed registry
undata: decimation: that's what bugs me about a lot of these services
undata: they require some website
decimation: it's in the blockchain
decimation: the website is just a pointer
undata: the whole b64 at the bottom is?
TheNewDeal: it's basically a blockchain parser that just filters for deeds, no?
decimation: well, no the blob isn't
decimation: but obviously that's an expensive proposition
undata: hence magnet links...
decimation: magnet links would solve the distribution problem but not the attribution problem
decimation: you still gotta sign something
decimation: so either: mirror deedbot or embed your magnet links to deedbot's signed blob
undata: decimation: you'd need something that indicates "this is a deed" and also has a magnet link for the whole signed message
undata: what's missing?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8851 @ 0.00075627 = 6.6937 BTC [-]
decimation: I'm not sure. It would be useful if punkman released some docs on exactly how deedbot works
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 20:32:15; punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key
decimation: so if I'm reading that correctly, the list of sha256 hashes of all the deeds would allow one to 'detect deeds'
undata: then you have a private key
undata: what's done with that
TheNewDeal: I think he also is going to add all the commands here later http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots
assbot: irc_bots [bitcoin assets wiki]
decimation: well, the public key (address) can be derived from the private key
decimation: so in your blob you put the chronological list of hashes for all deeds - user will be able to confirm that this blob was indeed put into the blockchain by deedbot
decimation: or rather, the hash thereof
decimation: at least, that's my understanding, would like to know if it's incorrect.
undata: right, what's spent to that address
undata: the payment for the asset in the deed?
undata: haa
mthreat: sweet, deeds!
assbot: Newly Appointed "Ebola Czar" Quarantines Entire Navy After Learning Ebola Can be Transmitted by Semen - GomerBlog
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00075915 = 16.1699 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Bitcoin Block #327145
cazalla: 976.552734375 KB
mircea_popescu: <TheNewDeal> do you think that's true? << no, it's stupid.
mircea_popescu: cazalla been a few close to 1mb this year.
mircea_popescu: but possibly.
TheNewDeal: can you expand on that?
mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal well, would you say that the best way to help your poor neighbour is to burn some soup ?
TheNewDeal: at least then the assholes wouldnt be able to use the bitcoins that funded ether
mircea_popescu: well sure, this is true.
mircea_popescu: but you gotta decide which line you're going. inasmuch as it keeps the asshole from getting resources, yes it's better than giving him bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: but if you're trying to prevent the asshole from getting resources, why even consider the matter, just ignore it.
TheNewDeal: well it's like this, you know at least some finite amount of worth was destroyed to generate new pile of shitcoin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00076496 = 9.7915 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: <PeterL> are you familiar with the deedbot? << exactly.
mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal so ?
mircea_popescu: <decimation> at least, that's my understanding, would like to know if it's incorrect. << there's other ways to verify too, but this one definitely works.
BingoBoingo: <TheNewDeal> well it's like this, you know at least some finite amount of worth was destroyed to generate new pile of shitcoin << Spz Dr. Evil burned all of the coins on Bitstamp to "fund" an altchain. What would that do?
undata: uh, create two worthless things...
BingoBoingo: ;;google bitcoin prices bitcoin inflexibility
gribble: Bitcoin prices, Bitcoin inflexibility pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea ...: <http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/>; Can We Stabilize the Price of Cryptocurrency? - Connection Science ...: <http://connection.mit.edu/Iwamura-Kitamura201407.pdf>; Is Bitcoin a viable currency? - MIT Sloan School of Management: <http://mitsloan.mit.edu/finance/blog/?p=466>
TheNewDeal: BingoBoingo suppose dr. evil created something he called Bitcoin 2.0
TheNewDeal: the only way to fund it was to destroy bitcoin in the process
TheNewDeal: suddently, 20% of bitcoin disappears overnight to said address
TheNewDeal: It would mean that there were at least some people who decided it was worth getting rid of their bitcoin to check out bitcoin 2.0
BingoBoingo: Well, the remaining Bitcoins on version 1.0 increase in value and people wonder when Dr. Evil is going to dump those BTC he raised under the influence of ether
TheNewDeal: If it were 99% of the original bitcoin, what would it say about the remaining 1%?
BingoBoingo: Million dollar Bitcoin.
BingoBoingo: Also why were people keeping those wallets on Windows 98?
TheNewDeal: perhaps, or it's not worth anything to anyone any more
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15600 @ 0.00079243 = 12.3619 BTC [+]
undata: TheNewDeal: for some reason that reminded me of cash for clunkers
undata: where the US govt subsidized people buying new cars, as long as they gave their old cars in to be destroyed
TheNewDeal: gots to get some sleep
assbot: and the libressl warrant canary is... you guessed it, comic sans. https://t.co/bx6nNNg6Tn http://t.co/uWLw8ao6nf
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15764 @ 0.00077107 = 12.1551 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: <TheNewDeal> perhaps, or it's not worth anything to anyone any more << that's pure nonsense.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The header text on the libressl.org page is part of the jpg with the pufferfish. If the warrant canary triggers the header text becomes comic sans is my reading of it.
mircea_popescu: magic numbers are all equal. if 99.999999% of bitcoin were destroyed as you describe, the remainder coupla hundred btc will play the role of twenty million
mircea_popescu: all payments move to smaller units and the story ends
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i fail to get how this is supposed to be a canary.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I would figure that to keep the server from displaying the comic sans image someone has to keep hitting the "We haven't been served yet" button.
mircea_popescu: but they'd be legally forbidden from stopping hitting that button.
BingoBoingo: Why, because they aren't Apple who has the press gloss over "The canary died because it became unecessary, not because a warrant came to kill it"
BingoBoingo: And all of that retardation.
BingoBoingo: The canary isn't a guarantee they haven't been approached, but it's being triggered should seem to be a guarentee they have.
mircea_popescu: for something to be a canary it has to be a passive, unavoidable mechanism.
mircea_popescu: this comic font business is neither passive nor unavoidable
mircea_popescu: !up Newar
BingoBoingo: It's definitely far from a robust system, especially considering a MITM could force delivery of the pre-canary image
BingoBoingo: A better system would simply involve passing a BTC balance between two addresses under one's control at set intervals
mircea_popescu: how'd that be better ?
mircea_popescu: no, the way these things work is the company has a firm negative statement published. "we have not been approached to so and so".
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28550 @ 0.0007715 = 22.0263 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: the law can not compel one to lie, and so as long as that statement appears, it's not happened
BingoBoingo: Sign a message asserting that passing the balance between the two addresses fuctions as your warrant canary and GPG crypt the message to a few trusted parties that can release the signed doc if the behavior consituting the canary ceases
mircea_popescu: once it disappears, irrespective of what the usg propaganda machine claims, it's happened.
mircea_popescu: short and sweet
mircea_popescu: you're using a meta concept as if it were a thing.
BingoBoingo: I guess. I'm just trying to think of a verifiable deed sort of version that could be concealed from the warrant industry until triggered
mircea_popescu: so the person in question can be charged with conspiracy "?
BingoBoingo: I suppose that is also a concern. Maybe the current practice for the warrant canary lacks room for improvement.
BingoBoingo: At least until the datacenters running bitcoin nodes become nuclear powers.
mircea_popescu: finally made knickers illegal ?
BingoBoingo: Copyrastas, the panties broke trademark law or were counterfeit or something
BingoBoingo: But maybe someday.
mircea_popescu: hopefully they now make homeland security panties
mircea_popescu: preferably with the logo where the butt kisses it.
BingoBoingo: I was actually wondering what the market would be for silk thongs with the butt thread made of authentic Obama tis
undata: close enough?
BingoBoingo: Just needs to be worn backwards in torture device configuration
undata: wtf is DHS doing enforcing copyright
undata: they're going to find out later that the US had a lead pipes situation
undata: the country's going crazy
undata: for starters, we're all high as shit.
mircea_popescu: undata obama finished the reorganisation of everthing law enforcement as a homeland security sub.
undata: I notice "raids" are now a primary way of doing things
mircea_popescu: well, like sex is no longer fashionable so the girl will claim she was "raped", just so the visit by two state employees to confiscate some contraband is called a "raid"
mircea_popescu: gotta make it news, right ?
undata: everything is entertainment
undata: or rather, for show
undata: I can't see the next 20 years going well for most people here.
undata: if I were conspiracy minded, I'd say they're preparing for that now with the militarization of police, etc
undata: but I don't think that
undata: our system just bloats like that, needs to create new bureaus and buy them fancy tanks and drones
BingoBoingo: Eh, sometimes they are out to get you.
undata: but to what end, then?
undata: it's the pointlessness of america, not the brutality, that gets me
undata: s/pointlessness/incoherence/
undata: it must just be what things look like when they're unraveling.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33350 @ 0.0007744 = 25.8262 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: <undata> but to what end, then? << you seen miller's crossing ?
bounce: <mircea_popescu> " regulatory oversight maybe at the national and international level, just to make sure that we don?t do something very foolish" << in a sense this is an open invitation for some agency or institute or whatnot to step up. "bring it before us and we'll pass judgement", with suitable PR to suitably spin it up and answer the inevitable "you and what army?" questions.
chetty: very good reason not to use banks, imo
thestringpuller: Naphex: I saw that.
thestringpuller: I havne't read it yet.
thestringpuller: Should I?
Naphex: thestringpuller: title should be enough :)
thestringpuller: How are these guys not operating on a loss if they started around the new year?
punkman: htop
punkman: hmm wrong window
thestringpuller: Naphex: the comments are great
punkman: "Counterparty matures with foundation launch"
punkman: !s coinspark
Naphex: punkman: i checked out coinspark a while ago
punkman: Naphex: and?
Naphex: well i was the protocol is something that i was looking for, with asset servers. the cryptography its pretty simple
Naphex: current implementation is clunky not in any way suitable for running anything in production
punkman: above article says some company wants to use it for gold trading
Naphex: well unless they want to dev the whole infrastructure
punkman: free gold maybe?
Naphex: punkman: well anyway, i had a calendar date to recheck it in 6 months
punkman: "important to emphasise that investor assets are never held by Bullion Bitcoin in its own right: investors either hold allocated gold in their own allocated gold account, or they hold an identifiable amount of allocated gold bullion held on their behalf, or they hold an identifiable Bitcoin holding verifiable on the Blockchain"
punkman: derp
punkman: I read "coinscrum" as "coinscrotum" for a second there
punkman: !s digitaltangible
thestringpuller: !up Mikayla
thestringpuller: !up xinxi
Mikayla: Thank you
thestringpuller: !up yhwh_
Mikayla: What is the topic of today?
xinxi: thanks
Naphex: i am working on a enterprise server solution for bitcoin
Mikayla: interesting
Mikayla: I don't really believe you
Mikayla: tell me more :)
Naphex: why wouldn't you belive me lol?
punkman: !up MCM-Mike
Mikayla shurgs
thestringpuller: skeptical Mikayla is skeptical
Mikayla: would you be here active if you were?
Mikayla: It's never good to believe every thing you hear or see :)
thestringpuller: What if you saw something that was unbelievable?
Mikayla: Best I see it with my own eyes as opposed to a Youtube video
thestringpuller: Random: The walking dead gave me nightmares, and I didn't even watch it.
Mikayla: I've had a zombie nightmare
Mikayla: pre The Walking Dead
Mikayla: must be Resident Evil
thestringpuller: Resident Evil: "Limited Ammo Simulator"
thestringpuller: Or at least how I remember it.
chetty: belief is a silly concept
Mikayla: not unlimited?
thestringpuller: I always ran out of ammo. Not as bad as Silent Hill though, but that was more survival/puzzle oriented
Mikayla: oh I thought we meant the movie
Mikayla: some movies they have a little too much ammo
Mikayla: logically
thestringpuller: I'm pretty sure Milla Jovavich poops bullets at this point.
Mikayla: She's hot
chetty: <Mikayla> some movies they have a little too much ammo//some? a little too much? ,hah movies guns never run out of bullets
Mikayla: this is funny
Mikayla: chetty some are better made
thestringpuller: Mikayla: She's hot << She did age well.
Mikayla: Very unique
Mikayla: not a carbon copy
thestringpuller: shotguns are good for hallwys though
thestringpuller: if you have a narrow hallway and a group of combatants is coming down it, you can just unload blindly and you'll probably hit most of them
Mikayla: shit, I am shit out narrow hallways today
Mikayla: best I don't get into trouble :P
chetty: so, its another Monday in October, any predictions? (yes this goes with the shotguns ...)
punkman: I don't mind the infinite bullets, more that they can't hit anything that's not a mook
Mikayla: I believe another banker died via a nail gun
Mikayla: "suicide"
Mikayla: my conspiracy senses are tingling
chetty: banking is a very unhealthful profession is would seem
thestringpuller: In 2012 someone had written an October future that expired on Halloween. That was interesting.
Mikayla: well a nailgun sounds like a horrific way to die
Mikayla: why not go a more....
Mikayla: peaceful route
Naphex: yeah so the thing is..
Naphex: a enterprise node, hook into trusted bitcoin core nodes over P2p protocol. Index and cache the data
Naphex: then delivery it over several types of interfaces
Naphex: unspents, utxo's etc
punkman: hey something interesting in Cracked, what a surprise
punkman: "David Byron kicked off all this madness about undetectable guns when he was issued a patent in 1987. Congress even tried to ban this as-of-yet unbuilt gun. That didn't stop Byron from hooking up with investors and starting a company focused on making this "plastic gun" a reality."
Mikayla: aaaand I'm out
Mikayla: cheers
punkman: ;;isitup log.bitcoin-assets.com
gribble: Error: "isitup" is not a valid command.
punkman: ;;isup log.bitcoin-assets.com
punkman: this Byron guy is still innovating, now he's making armor. "Our current generation armor has been successfully tested up to .50 APM2." yeah right
thestringpuller: is gribble down?
gribble: pong
thestringpuller: I wonder if this huge push on sidechains is because the power rangers realize the blocksize ain't increasing anytime soon...
thestringpuller: !up JimDowJones
jurov: re:ebama tent - my fkn hearing aids broadcast everything to each other
jurov: prolly i can be never classified to work with usg sekrets
jurov: or they'd have to make me a golden toilet new ones
mike_c: ;;isup bitbet.us
gribble: bitbet.us is down
mats_cd03: wowzer
mats_cd03: i'm reading about how broken po-po radio crypto is
mats_cd03: die hard IRL
TomServo: Regarding the /. article?
mats_cd03: dunno how i missed this in 2011, ive been following travis goodspeed for as long
TomServo: Cool paper, been meaning to do some reading on this.
TomServo: Can anyone recommend a good SDR to play with?
jurov: i just heard some TV gizmos are good for playing
mats_cd03: le hackrf is good
TomServo: Thanks!
dignork: TomServo: I've got this: http://www.amazon.com/NooElec-Previously-Compatible-Packages-Guaranteed/dp/B009U7WZCA but the jury is still out. gnuradio is a pain to configure, but hardware is recognized: http://dpaste.com/093MJ7H
TomServo: dignork: Those look great for cheap quick exposure.. but I might like to support this hackrf thing just due to cool factor.
jurov: punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key << ever heard of hash extension attack?
jurov: it allows to add data in the end and update hash .. but not sure it can ve exploited here somehow
jurov: bitcoin solves it by using double sha256, otherwise it's solved by using HMAC
punkman: jurov, no secrets here, what will you attack with length extension
jurov: that's the question.
jurov: also, is base58 actually RFC-defined?
jurov: i have some feeling it has its own dark corners
jurov: brb
punkman: I don't think it is, here's the implementation bot uses though: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/lib/bitcoin.py#L258
punkman: (note it doesn't have checksum/version bytes like usual base58check used in addresses)
dignork: TomServo: it should be easier with HackRF, the guy even made some decent training videos: https://greatscottgadgets.com/sdr/
dignork: And apparently it should work out of the box with pentoo
TomServo: dignork: Just saw those, cool stuff. Might have to get one so I can resist the urge stepping up to one of these USRP beasts.
jurov: punkman what if i secretly extend the bundle and make a payment to new addy
jurov: and then make a fuss about it?
jurov: it can be detected by fact that the payment did not go from deedbot's address but i still dislike this
mircea_popescu: jurov but listen, the someone should be in l2 right ?
mircea_popescu: they risk their ass doing asinine shit like that.
jurov: you yourself gave some "just a voice" rating
jurov: and it can be easily solved by terminating the list of deed hashes prior to final hashing
mircea_popescu: jurov yes, but i myself can also take it away, and have, and will, if the person's obnoxious.
PeterL: jurov so what if they add another deed, what would be the problem?
mircea_popescu: that said, termination may also be an idea
jurov: no real problem likely, just the obnoxiousness
PeterL: the timestamp is based on the blockchain transaction, if they put another deed transaction on the blockchain it does not hurt the first one?
jurov: it does not
jurov: just makes it easier to fool someone as what was actually included
mircea_popescu: that someone'd have to be kind-of foolish
mircea_popescu: or maybe i don't actually understand this attack
jurov: everyone has their moments
jurov: cue my donation to b-a
PeterL: I don't see any benefit the attacker would have over just submitting a deed to deedbot?
jurov: only benefit is possiblity to (pruportedly) multiple versions of one bundle with perviously unknowns deeds to appear
punkman: jurov, what's this "secretly extend bundle" attack
jurov: nothing more and it can be resolved by checking of whether the tx originated from deedbot's piggy
punkman: as in, take bundle, add another deed and make new bundle?
jurov: yes
jurov: and fool someone with it
jurov: or try to
punkman: yeah you gotta check it came from bot's address, verifier will do this
punkman: .balance
punkbot: punkman: Balance at 1LAwrWMbPLLSpt7nkD5Jv1Yf4cwPhD98ny is 0.01614 BTC (0.0 unconfirmed), enough for 146 more bundles.
mike_c: seems simple solution to put a terminator on bundle.
punkman: I've also thought of signing the "lite" bundles
punkman: mike_c: terminator?
mike_c: yeah, a terminating sequence of bytes. then it can't be validly extended.
jurov: like hash1+','+hash2+...+hashN+'/n'
punkman: why can't it be extended?
mike_c: because there would be a terminator in the middle.
mike_c: and hence invalid.
punkman: why, I can't put my deedN+1 before terminator?
mike_c: no, hash attack is only adding a suffix
punkman: what hash attack
punkman: sha256 collisions?
jurov: the fake bundle would be lent credibility by existing deed
jurov: and you can't make it by adding new deed in the middle even now
jurov: only to the end
jurov: oh in fact it can be done
mike_c: *.b-a is down atm, is that where the bot description is hosted?
jurov: no there are only deeds
mike_c: punkman, did you write up a doc on the bot or release some code? could be useful to get eyes on it.
punkman: mike_c, will release code soon
jurov: nothing stops anyone from creating their own bundles completely, to prevent it would need deedbot to have own key
jurov: so my point rests. everyone gotta check it on blockchain
mircea_popescu: !s removed satoshi
mircea_popescu: mike_c log1. works
mircea_popescu: lol look at that, reddit asks for bitcoin foundation to remove satoshi from its rolls, the fucktards react by removing satoshi from the bitcoin code they're raping.
mircea_popescu: logic, usgavin style.
jurov: The Bitcoin Foundation is an ineffectual consortium of self-interest, operating under the guise of benevolent advocacy. They need an enema.
jurov: hahaha
jurov: ben_vulpes: what about bitcoin-enema.org ?
asciilifeform: removed satoshi <<< lol!!
asciilifeform: can we remove them ?
PeterL: when the bitcoin foundation was announced I figured I would just ignore it, I have not found a reason to change yet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, we can't. to remove them they'd have to at first somehow been included.
asciilifeform: meant, from the code.
mircea_popescu: yeah, take out the dumb shit.
asciilifeform was always puzzled at how precisely an anonymus could hold copyright. picture 'Robin Hood (C) 1377.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually, satoshi was smart here. an anon holding copyright means that nobody else can claim it, and it can never be enforced.
mircea_popescu: of course, us shitshow would reject this, but it's a perfectly valid approach.
asciilifeform: could end up public domain ?
mircea_popescu: well, the difference is subtle.
mircea_popescu: mentally compare the difference between an estate owned by nobody and commons
mircea_popescu: (ie, an estate not owned by anybody)
asciilifeform: there's a third setting on the dial - kolkhoz
mircea_popescu: no, kolkhoz is exactly the british commons.
mircea_popescu: just, a medieval institution, arguably inadequate for modern times.
asciilifeform: but - plus a demented king running the show
mike_c: dumbfruit's argument hurts my brain. he is saying that transactions are too cheap and therefore the block size limit should be removed?
mircea_popescu: the brits had that.
mircea_popescu: mike_c he is one of the word processors.
mircea_popescu: he heard words and therefore words because words.
mike_c: the new tragedy of the commons is that the commons have a voice.
mircea_popescu: well, to be generous, it's not the voice that's the problem. it's the god awful pretense that one can understand things by guessing what words might mean "in context"
mircea_popescu: the result is a very cruel mistreatment of human soft tissue.
asciilifeform: ^ last night's anal orifice. someone posted.
asciilifeform: (thx to diametric for the reddit find)
mircea_popescu: <punkman> I've also thought of signing the "lite" bundles << seems redundant. sign once, which you do, with the tx.
mircea_popescu: signing multiple times is inviting trouble.
asciilifeform: possible explanation of anonymous copyrights in usa: USC § 302 (c) 'anonymous works' - http://copyright.gov/title17/92chap3.html
asciilifeform: (spoiler: in usa, anonymous is permitted to hold copyright, and can reveal himself and operate like ordinary copyright if he can prove authorship in some officially-recognized way)
mircea_popescu: punkman: derp << that shit was so stupid...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anon is permitted to hold copyright by bern convention, actually.
asciilifeform wonders how the proof of authorship worked sans pgp
asciilifeform: probably same as proof of inventor priority
asciilifeform: that is, by public wankfest (opponents optional. no one contests - win)
mircea_popescu: actually you'll hear hell from people trying to pretend that this is the right way, and pgp is XYZ FUDstuffs even today.
asciilifeform: some 'people' value the 'freedom' to lie about everything and misrepresent anything.
mircea_popescu: wait mikayla believes mila jovovich is NOT a carbon copy and unique ?!
mircea_popescu: holy shit batman.
mircea_popescu: chicks the fucking definition of "here, i found this model passed out in the bathroom"
mircea_popescu: Naphex: a enterprise node, hook into trusted bitcoin core nodes over P2p protocol. Index and cache the data << this is not a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: I wonder if this huge push on sidechains is because the power rangers realize the blocksize ain't increasing anytime soon... << http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/
mircea_popescu: Yet another one of them is that consumers revolt, entrepreneurs intervene, before the end of 2015 there’s about a thousand to a million different Bitcoin forks, each with its ten million-ish monetary base worth about a dollar, on global average. The size of the inter-Bitcoins market, the complexity and confusion ensuing makes pretty much everything unmanageable for the “ordinary person”
mircea_popescu: two years ago yo.
mircea_popescu: "On the balance of probabilities this would seem the most likely outcome, strictly because history unerringly flows in that direction which most cruely rapes the “average person”."
mircea_popescu: fuck me i'm good.
Adlai: it'll be funny to see markets between the same "bitcoin" asset on different blockchains... reminds me a bit of goxBTC
Naphex: mircea_popescu: aye and much needed, with all those people wanting to implement all kinds of solutions based on blockchain data
mircea_popescu: jurov: prolly i can be never classified to work with usg sekrets <<< you saw i lolled at the "medical devices" part yes ? :D
jurov: yes
mircea_popescu: Naphex problem being they also want to do it for free, but mayhap there's a solution for that.
mircea_popescu: jurov anyway, you should prolly apply, then you can sue for unfair treatment
mircea_popescu: keep them busy for 20 years.
asciilifeform: this is where 'we only hire aryans but won't say so' comes in very handy.
jurov: or they put mandatory crypto for medical devices into law
jurov: long overdue
mircea_popescu: hahhahahahaha
asciilifeform: see also d. cheney's pacemaker
mircea_popescu: funny man
asciilifeform: (rumour was, famously, that he commissioned a custom one)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform custom pacemakers have been the norm for not-poor people for what, 20 years ?
asciilifeform: custom in the sense of signed firmware loader
asciilifeform: so, to continue last night's thread - am i stuck merging turdatron patches? or is one of you folks willing to be the sapper.
mircea_popescu: you familiar with that ancient game of cuckoo ?
mircea_popescu: he who speaks gets it.
asciilifeform: !s cuckoo nagant
asciilifeform: that one?
mircea_popescu: for instance.
mircea_popescu: good games are always abstraction of real life mechanisms.
kakobrekla: game of cuckoo < i once sent a guy to hospital cause of that game :\
ben_vulpes: <jurov> ben_vulpes: what about bitcoin-enema.org ? f9beb4d9.org
asciilifeform: kakobrekla is good shot!
kakobrekla: no guns involved
kakobrekla: its a long story, we were kids, i got carried away, is all.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is the mailing list up?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it's jurov's
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i assume he'll wake us up when it's time
ben_vulpes: and i didn't see any good suggestions re "what is the output of a 'merge'?"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes either you or mod6 gotta start managing people!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: output of a merge is a buildable tree.
asciilifeform: (or garbage, depending on the merge!)
asciilifeform: this is very basic stuff
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i have one of those on me local machine
asciilifeform: traditionally, it is not unreasonable to demand that a patch not annihilate the buildability of the overall turd.
ben_vulpes: now im mulling what to publish
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: original suggestion was a 'linus-style' scheme where we all sign & mail in patches, and one of us plays the part of 'Linus' and merges, signing the resulting trees
asciilifeform: the latter also has the duty of being 'sapper' and trying very much not to err.
asciilifeform: that is, to judge patches, play devil's advocate, test resulting builds.
ben_vulpes: that latter's a tough one.
ben_vulpes: testing bitcoin builds.
asciilifeform: live-fire test of -everything- is non-trivial, yes.
asciilifeform: and, inescapably - slow.
asciilifeform: in fact, good portions of the original have never been 'live-fire' tested, afaik
asciilifeform: (the 'ddos mitigation' stuff, for example)
mircea_popescu: actually, bluematt did maybe 2/3 of bitcoin testing to date.
asciilifeform: !s bluematt
mircea_popescu: the guy that made the recent tx relay streamline thing
asciilifeform: is he alive? where does he stand?
mircea_popescu: alive, yes. standing... hard to say. shy of politics ?
ben_vulpes: so i've cobbled together a testing stack that builds and boots this build as I mentioned last night. next things that i'd like to do with it is attach it to testnet; and stand up a server non-locally to run these builds.
ben_vulpes: but fiatcorp calls at precisely this moment, and i must leave ye all for the meantime.
mircea_popescu: however, he doesn't hold a large balance, maybe that's the first thing bitcoin foundation can spend on
mircea_popescu: pay for testing
ben_vulpes: not a bad notion at all
asciilifeform willing to test for fee, but will not try to fight for contract against well-known aficionados
mircea_popescu: we see how this works out.
punkman: ;;isup bitbet.us
gribble: bitbet.us is down
asciilifeform will not be able to resist the temptation to build and test for free, but cannot promise to do this on a usably-frequent basis without compensation. is already doing rather many time-consuming things, not all of which bring in food.
asciilifeform: let the real heros stand up.
asciilifeform: http://xkcd.com/1439 << where did that beekeeping person go?
kakobrekla: imma guess he is at hetzner atm.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: what antenna do you use with your sdr ?
TomServo: asciilifeform: Is there an SDR you'd recommend?
mats_cd03: asciilifeform: i use the ANT500 mossmann sells with the hackrf
asciilifeform: TomServo: i have only the cheapest. the famous rtl dongle, and an ancient rs232-controlled 'icom' box.
asciilifeform: rx only.
asciilifeform: hackrf << appears to be sold out everywhere?
asciilifeform imagines gigantic crate in crematorium at fort meade
TomServo: sold out everywhere? < Was my impression also. Though some sites say they'll be restocked early 2015
asciilifeform: restocked << what, another 100 units?
asciilifeform: wonder if they're hand-made.
asciilifeform wonders whether vendor is 'having problems' - considering that sdr is technically banned in usa
TomServo: 2014-09-09 Note: We have sold out and are waiting on the next production run batch which will be delivered in a few months. We are sorry for the wait, but if you pre-order now we will send you a $20 gift certificate.
TomServo: From Hackerwarehouse.com
TomServo: asciilifeform: Didja check out the (pricier) options from ettus.com also?
asciilifeform: TomServo: $5k - might as well be $5mil
mats_cd03: 13:34:45 — +asciilifeform wonders whether vendor is 'having problems' - considering that sdr is technically banned in usa << hows that? ham operators have had SDR for at least a decade, no mutterings as to illegality afaik
asciilifeform ragged dervish
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: same ancient law that technically bans open-source 802.11 baseband fw
asciilifeform astonished to find that 'hackrf' is built in 'kicad.' this must mean that someone, somewhere, got it usefully running.
asciilifeform: almost certainly under winblows.
diametric: asciilifeform: i know a guy that uses kicad religiously
diametric: under linux too.
diametric: he makes laser controller boards with it.
TomServo: asciilifeform: $5k - might as well be $5mil << For a toy, I agree...though they have some 'board only' options that come in the 675-1100 range.
TomServo: Ahoy nubbins`
nubbins`: anyone got logs for past couple days
nubbins`: this continued ddosing sure is making it ever-so-slightly-more-difficult to catch up on happenings
kakobrekla: use log1
nubbins`: tyvm
jurov: $proxues
jurov: $proxies
empyex: jurov: Proxies: mpex.ws mpex.bz mpex.biz mpex.co mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91
empyex: jurov: MPEx-Status: mpex.co (102 milliseconds), mpex.biz (103 milliseconds), mpex.bz (114 milliseconds), mpex.ws (277 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (719 milliseconds)
empyex: jurov: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √
kakobrekla would suggest abbreviating 'milliseconds'
jurov: FabianB_: ^
artifexd: kakobrekla: Where is that from?
kakobrekla: some derp host obv
cazalla: punkman: I read "coinscrum" as "coinscrotum" for a second there <<< you're not the only one
TomServo: BingoBoingo: Nice work, was hoping you guys would cover that.
BingoBoingo: TomServo: Yeah I was away from the desk this weekend, and it took a bit to dig the relevant parts and boil them to qntra style.
mircea_popescu: <TomServo> 2014-09-09 Note: We have sold out and are waiting on the next production run batch which will be delivered in a few months. We are sorry for the wait, but if you pre-order now we will send you a $20 gift certificate. <<< this is so braindamaged.
mircea_popescu: what happened to "we are sold out. if you want to preorder it's going to be $100 extra. if you do not want to preorder, you can have it when we get it, at a $250 surcharge"
cazalla: that torrentlocker italian malware i posted about yesterday seems to be hitting some local australian council now heh, i won't write this up as same story diff location but if anyone was interested http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/2654270/cyber-attack-mildura-businesses-held-to-ransom-by-computer-malware-hackers/
mircea_popescu: maybe make one of those updates "this just in"
mircea_popescu: !up bitspill_
cazalla: actually, might do that
mircea_popescu: !up pleego
mircea_popescu: !up mariorz
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I suppose that would work if there weren't a handful of other sites "selling" it also.
mircea_popescu: well, it would work in the following way : those other sites get sold out, you still have a stock.
TomServo: Never did see one in stock though.
mircea_popescu: then you use the extra to make an exclusive deal with the supplier and that's that.
mircea_popescu: usians are practically anticapitalist by now.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: some derp host obv << "banned software" ? wtf is wrong with these people.
mircea_popescu: this is roughly like someone purporting to have an appartment for rent, comes with a "list of forbidden activities" : no opposite sex visitors, no masturbating, no drinking, no playing videogames
kakobrekla: at least they accept bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: PinkPosixPXE you making that bitcoin host yet ?
kakobrekla: well since they infact accept it, i will reveal them https://incloudibly.net/en/ << artifexd
mircea_popescu: shitty "cloud" vms meh.
kakobrekla: they can also scam you with a dedi
TomServo: wins shitty name comp tho
kakobrekla: dun worry
mircea_popescu: !up nhanH
kakobrekla: !up nhanH
danielpbarron: cazalla, the bitcoin trader video was taken down; is it mirrored anywhere?
danielpbarron: cazalla, tyvm
Naphex: "LedgerX Gets Google, Lightspeed Backing to Set Up Regulated Bitcoin Futures Exchange"
ben_vulpes: neat! a dose of legitimacy.
Naphex: they're apperantly htting the presses with it
Naphex: "LedgerX Hopes to Establish First U.S.-Regulated Futures Exchange for Bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: yet another one of these ?
mike_c: first best
bounce: ``Supporters of the company [...], believe that a U.S.-regulated, U.S.-based futures exchange for bitcoin would settle down some of the volatility of bitcoin prices'' -- because US awesomeness and USG rules fix everything
mircea_popescu: doubt there's that much interest for usd futures, but hey.
mircea_popescu: i imagine the idea is that perhaps bitcoin futures may be made to work like gold futures. which won't work, but hey, if google got too much dough we can always take some.
Naphex: it will probably take lots
Naphex: as people get closer to their realization points
BingoBoingo: <gribble> Rating change | Old rating -10 | New rating: jason > -10 > ninjashogun | Begs for ratings, expects to gain -OTC ratings through 'relationships' rather than trades but not will even reveal his name, goes crazy with name-calling and baseless scam allegations. Judge for yourself: http://pastebin.com/kLUHRrda
diametric: couldn't find anything easily in the log, whats up with bitbet? ddos?
kakobrekla: bee hive possibly
kakobrekla: on a more serious note, yes.
mircea_popescu: lol BingoBoingo i guess that guy's a troll!
BingoBoingo: I guess they have to be
mircea_popescu: !up selltoshi
mircea_popescu: !isup blogs.bitcoin-assets.com
mircea_popescu: i don't recall, was that supposed to work or not work ?
mircea_popescu: ;;isup blogs.bitcoin-assets.com
gribble: blogs.bitcoin-assets.com is down
ben_vulpes: wasn't PeterL going to set up a new blogs.ba
mircea_popescu: i think i saw something at some point tested maybe ?
los_pantalones: mircea_popescu i can't believe how much $ the ledgerX guys raised
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl what's the status on the rss thing ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones why not ?
los_pantalones: i've been on a few of due diligence calls for them
mircea_popescu: not like dollars are worth anything
los_pantalones: well, i mean relative to other companies in the space
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones you gotta understand, this is not economic activity, this is political activity.
assbot: Logged on 25-10-2014 01:11:55; PeterL: mircea_popescu: scoopbot is a replacement for penguiker
mircea_popescu: a yes ty
mike_c: los_pantalones: (if not prying) what firm are you with that you were doing diligence on them?
mircea_popescu: til wget has no fucking way to specify maximum ram usage
BingoBoingo: lol <gribble> Rating change | Old rating -10 | New rating: jason > -10 > ninjashogun | Begs for ratings, expects to gain -OTC ratings through 'relationships' rather than trades but not will even reveal his name, goes crazy with name-calling and baseless scam allegations. | Update: threatens retaliation: https://www.zerobin.net/?f68049f827a4c22b#gJAbVHDgwklVp6uiF5etTGF8SRBz1ygeewdsHuQkMYI=
BingoBoingo: <ninjashogun> hi
BingoBoingo: <ninjashogun> this is a scammer - you can read my convo with him here:
BingoBoingo: <ninjashogun> please pastebin into channel too
mike_c: I know the answer!
Azelphur: haha, that dude is a bit of a tool
Azelphur: he has been ranting in #bitcoin-bans for ages now
mike_c: yeah, he's been here plenty.
Azelphur: ninja I mean, to be clear
Azelphur: basically, everybody in this conversation is a tool
Azelphur: by this conversation, I mean the pastebin :P
bounce: such drama
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3NYBN0V.txt )
thickasthieves: gawd i'm in logs purgatory
thickasthieves: you gais talk too much
kakobrekla: shutup
thickasthieves: true, i'm just gonna have to read this later
ben_vulpes: quickly generate more logs for thickasthieves
kakobrekla: make the lines very long so he will never be able to catch up
ben_vulpes: 33MB lines when
kakobrekla: ircd patch when
cazalla: ben_vulpes, conformal are yet to get back to me
xanthyos: <+asciilifeform> http://xkcd.com/1439 << where did that beekeeping person go?
mike_c: it's in the lawgs. hetzner.
xanthyos: <+asciilifeform> http://xkcd.com/1439 << where did that beekeeping person go? << #foodfight on EFNet
ben_vulpes: cazalla: what did you actually ask them? i eventually realized that the 32mb line is the nominal largest size of a p2p message.
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 04:06:13; ben_vulpes: cazalla: did you hear back from Conformal about the machines they used to come to their 32MB steady-state conclusion?
ben_vulpes: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit << /me is amused at the "lisp/django" comparison
ben_vulpes: ah cazalla yeah yeah
ben_vulpes: didja comment on their blorg?
mats_cd03: kako and ben are so cute together
mats_cd03: i loled
mats_cd03: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/26/green-berets-tell-of-afghan-national-army-soldiers << green berets telling everybody who didn't already know the ANA is useless
mats_cd03: even afghan peasants are smarter than USG, apparently
mats_cd03: everybody in the region except the US knows they'll have to negotiate with the taliban five years from now
mats_cd03: unreachable
jurov: sooo... got two mailman installations with gpg patch, one rejects everything as "bad signature" the other accepts even usigned stuff despite configured not to
jurov: /o\
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3PAVD4T.txt )
jurov: gotta debug
kakobrekla: dont worry bash is down.
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1M35DV1.txt )
jurov: !b 2
kakobrekla: lol DO is being totally retarded
kakobrekla: maybe time to test retardation levels at vultr
punkman: I wouldn't expect vultr to be better but who knows
kakobrekla: well, its not hard to beat "hi you have incoming ddos, I understand this can be frustrating as this type of attack is usually a sign that your droplet has been compromised"
kakobrekla: srsly.
los_pantalones: mike_c still in here?
kakobrekla: they are basically saying "hello idiot, put shoe on head, banana in anus to fix ddos"
kakobrekla: im totaly fine if they take the machine down for the needed period
kakobrekla: but i will not dance bananas.
mike_c: los_pantalones: yeah
los_pantalones: we provide btc liquidity otc and on exchange
los_pantalones: over 185k traded last 30 days
mike_c: impressive. who is "we"?
kakobrekla: which ex?
los_pantalones: company i work for, i would tell you if i were in on my company pgp but i'm using my personal here
los_pantalones: we don't touch bitstamp
los_pantalones: directly
kakobrekla: all roads lead to buttstamp
kakobrekla: close to rome too.
los_pantalones: yeah, odd arrangement but you can trade on bitstamp via coinsetter
kakobrekla: geographically i mean.
los_pantalones: works better for us legally
kakobrekla: ah coinsetter idiots
kakobrekla: nvm, carry on.
los_pantalones: anyway, we make investments here and there but mostly trade
los_pantalones: and luckily i get to take calls from VC looking at companies
los_pantalones: those are fun calls
mike_c: how's the bear market treating you?
los_pantalones: super busy
los_pantalones: i try to push everyone into here, most haven't taken me up on it
kakobrekla: only idiots use irc.
pete_dushenski: cazalla first drugs, now disease, next clubbing baby seals.
pete_dushenski: los_pantalones be more selective?
pete_dushenski: kakobrekla irc is dangerous because it uses passwords, y'know
los_pantalones: pete_dushenski it's not like i'm suggesting hundreds of people come in here, just the guys who end up on .derp
kakobrekla: pete, mpex issued derp
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell DanielKrawisz Looking forward to seeing you rationalize this gem of a comment in the public forum: "No, more nodes arent more secure. A full node is valuable to the one running it, not anyone else"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: kakobrekla i musta missed how people go from mpex to using los_pantalones for btc liquidity?
kakobrekla: i think theres a misunderstanding going on here.
kakobrekla: sending people to ba is not relevant to btc liquidity
pete_dushenski: o! i got it now. my bad.
pete_dushenski: i understood los_pantalones as saying that people who "ended up on .derp" were traders, not the actual fucking derps!
pete_dushenski: heh twitter lost another $175mn this quarter. such business those guys
kakobrekla: 33mb tweets?
pete_dushenski: this represents a 200% greater loss than last year while revenue doubled.
pete_dushenski: kakobrekla twitter needs bigger nodes.
pete_dushenski: !s taleb ebola
pete_dushenski: Taleb: Ebola, including model error.
pete_dushenski: hmm do comments not yield trackbacks?
cazalla: ben_vulpes: didja comment on their blorg? <<< i'll give em time to respond via email first
PeterL: mircea_popescu: rss thing ... I am working on it, it is almost ready, I think, just need to work out a few bugs and clean up my code some
Adlai: TIL linden dollar exchanges are registered MSBs
BingoBoingo: Adlai: I'm working on a write up atm on those
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: dude you gotta stop your blog from opening up links in new tabs
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes uh no?
pete_dushenski: why would i do that?
ben_vulpes: vile fucking practice, destroying the browse history.
cazalla: question if anyone can help - is there a genuine security reason for someone to refuse to disclose how they generate entropy for the private keys contained in their physical bitcoin coin products?
PeterL: is there a way to change that behavior in your local browser?
punkman: cazalla: not rly
ben_vulpes: also pete_dushenski your content div scrolls sideways
cazalla: punkman, i thought so. i ask because this is the response i got when asking someone i'm looking at doing a story on "We believe there are a number of safe ways the keys can be generated by offline PCs, but do not disclose exact method(s) chosen for obvious reasons."
PeterL: cazella: maybe they are not making good entropy and are embarrased to admit it?
ben_vulpes: cazalla: only if you're depending on DO for your noise.
jurov: sugh, this is worse than obola.. i was not aware what various email clients do to text/plain
PeterL: If it is something like "pick a certain digit of pi to start at" then it would be a security breach to expose what you are doing
jurov: base64, quoted printable, oh my
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: no-irc << story here. a good fraction of irc bots are malware c&c commanders. hosting firms hate them, they draw fire (from upstream isp)
ben_vulpes: PeterL: yeah sure, custom stylesheet for contravex.com clobbering target="_blank"
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes hm let me mull it over
ben_vulpes: but as i said, clobbering the back-button when reading hyperlinked documents is...
ben_vulpes: well you fill in that ellipses yourself.
kakobrekla: <cazalla> punkman, i thought so. i ask because this is the response i got when asking someone i'm looking at doing a story on "We believe there are a number of safe ways the keys can be generated by offline PCs, but do not disclose exact method(s) chosen for obvious reasons." < if its a bad implementation, you in fact increase attack surface even further
punkman: and that's a good reason?
kakobrekla: didnt say that
kakobrekla: everything is terrible
asciilifeform: cazalla: is there a genuine security reason for someone to refuse to disclose how they generate entropy << your crystal ball's answer is correct.
asciilifeform: cazalla: same reason mircea_popescu won't post his neutered bitcoind source tree.
asciilifeform: cazalla: little to gain, plenty to lose
kakobrekla: same as with signing any code.
asciilifeform: jurov: i was not aware what various email clients do to text/plain <<<<< mircea_popescu << our thread last night.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: signing code << can be a hero for the motherland.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes it's a bit odd that the sidescroll shows up in firefox and safari but not opera. what're you using?
cazalla: so really, it's more a question of why buy physical coins to begin with than getting to the point of asking how they generated the private keys used for the priv address inside the coin
punkman: asciilifeform: cazalla: little to gain, plenty to lose << but they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools
asciilifeform will sign own code (cardano) with 'will die by this' seal. will not sign other folks' code, unless compensated to actually put in the time to play 'reverse underhanded c contest.' << not cheap
kakobrekla: but they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools < we call the rand() function. twice.
asciilifeform: physical coins << anyone who buys private keys, deserves to pay for the sin
kakobrekla: yeah casascius is basically a scammer for not scamming
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: 'the gears grind slowly but they grind infinitely fine.'
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: chrome
asciilifeform: he can swear to his gods that he didn't make copies, but what kind of proof could possibly suffice as proof to a skeptic ?
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes zomg
pete_dushenski: anyways, i'll look in to it :)
cazalla: pete_dushenski, where did the women go btw
pete_dushenski: cazalla they were lost in the hosting changeover and have yet to reappear. they may still or they may not.
asciilifeform: punkman: they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools << and you'll believe?
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: also opera lol
punkman: I got a coin in the works btw
kakobrekla: physical ?
punkman: yeah, not sure if it will have space for sticker though
punkman: maybe just an art thing
kakobrekla: funny, we have physical virtual coins, but most money is in fact virtual physical money instead.
asciilifeform: Adlai: dead link?
kakobrekla: no worky
Adlai must've had some tracking crap in his browser already
Adlai: tl;dr: "emerging payment systems (eg Bitcoin, Paypal, Square)"
Adlai likes the order
kakobrekla waits for "10 years bitcoin experience required" in 2014.
assbot: Today's /hashtag/FinCEN?src=hash /hashtag/Bitcoin?src=hash rulings Deturdified, because Fuck PDFs http://t.co/sIOYOjmmbz
asciilifeform: !s 3 ani experienta
asciilifeform: ^ classic text
asciilifeform: see also:
asciilifeform: ;;google knife folsom prison
gribble: Put 'Em Down, Take 'Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From ...: <http://www.amazon.com/Put-Down-Take-Out-Techniques/dp/0873644840>; Knife Fighting : About Folsom Knife Fighting - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGVcoMJx-zw>; Put Em Down, Take Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques from Folsom ...: <http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1744698.Put_Em_Down_Take_Em_Out_>
asciilifeform: ^ a kind of sequel
bounce: 7+ year "technical leadership" in webmonkeying?
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes sidescrolling fixed on opera/ff/safari, how's it look on chromeski?
jurov: asciilifeform << our thread last night << now i wonder why nobody's reusing ascii control characters (C0)
jurov: C0 reserved for asciilifeforms?
asciilifeform: jurov: because they get silently snipped by a thousand tools ?
asciilifeform: and aha, yes.
jurov: for example?
asciilifeform: 'strings'.
asciilifeform: your www broser (likely)
asciilifeform: better question, what -doesn't- lose them
jurov: how does a browser use them?
asciilifeform: not uses
asciilifeform would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong about this
jurov: oh that. only if tim berners lee used them for html instead of <>"'
asciilifeform: we're still paying for the ill manners of ill-behaved 1970s 'glass tty' terminals.
jurov: ^F
jurov: ^ was supposed to ACK
asciilifeform half-seriously suggests using otherwise worthless unicode chars for pgp control codes. e.g., babylonian cuneiform.
asciilifeform is not pleased that these are presently more widely supported than the complete ascii set. but it's a fact.
asciilifeform: ☭☭☭☭☭☭
bounce: more elegant to invent your own pgp control script complete with glyphs and have it accepted in the unicode standard
PeterL: what control would the characters have?
jurov: instead of -----START/END OF WHATEVER------ use dedicated uncode chars
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 21:44:02; asciilifeform: till we have a gpg that clearsigns without escape char mutilation - we got this.
asciilifeform: discussion of why jurov's turdatron is stuck using detached gpg signatures
jurov: https://coinchimp.com/ so...it has come to this
mats_cd03: thats a nice picture of a chimp
jurov: lol on their on "warning" page:
jurov: That's just basic classical economics. Scammers don't last long in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
jurov: We are MUCH safer than the other exchanges, each of which has spawned a huge list of horror stories from disgrunted customers.
jurov: they forgot to mention they are amazing
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
kakobrekla: better than mtgox, they say.
decimation: asciilifeform: is this because base64?
jurov: decimation: no, it uses dash escaping
asciilifeform: decimation: gpg 'escapes' minus signs.
jurov: which mutilates patches
cazalla: that's racist!
jurov: cazalla: what?
decimation: why would anyone think it would be a good idea to escape chars below 7 bits?
decimation: like, are they going to send it on a 5-bit teletype?
cazalla: jurov, referring to kakobrekla's coinchimp image.. hey if it was good enough for people to say mailchimp was vaguely racist..
asciilifeform: because -----BEGIN FUCKTARDATION----- .... ------END FUCKTARDATION
decimation: I see.
decimation: c-machine implementation of characters is enraging
decimation: I think you had that rant a few months ago on that topic
decimation: someone should make a --cccp flag that enables ☭ as the BOM/EOM char for gpg
decimation: yeah, characters are properly objects with a variety of attributes, not numbers
decimation: it does seem like unicode is a natural fit for lisp
asciilifeform: unicode is still braindamaged
decimation: I think most folk use UTF8
asciilifeform: no way to cleanly define local glyphs
asciilifeform: in any extant system
asciilifeform: it's as if we were still using teletype
asciilifeform: why are we emulating drum printers?
decimation: actually it's a tacit admission that computers suck
decimation: no one has the will/ability to make better software until hardware to use it rolls around
asciilifeform: in my studies, i'm particularly interested in the 'suck' that no one even notices any more.
asciilifeform: because 'that's just how computer works, didntcha stay awake in school'
decimation: Another reason why chars suck is the endian problem
Adlai mutters something about local readtables
asciilifeform: nothing to do with readtables
decimation: you are stuck with 8 bits if you don't want to constantly guess at endianness
Adlai: what exactly are we trying to do here
mircea_popescu: !up Abelincoln
asciilifeform: Adlai: which 'we', which 'here' ?
Abelincoln: whats up this is abe lincoln talking from the dead yo
Adlai: asciilifeform: we = same we that are emulating drum printers, here = our efforts to go beyond drum printers
decimation: abe you were a murderous tyrant who birthed modern usg
asciilifeform: decimation: also 100 to 1 he's 'meow mix'
mircea_popescu: brendio ?!
decimation: I have a question about deedbot
decimation: is there going to be a 'reset' of the state of his deed 'knapsack' over time?
decimation: one would imagine that keeping the pile of all past deeds would become cumbersome
mircea_popescu: dude it grows 100% a year haven't you heard ?
asciilifeform: didn't we do this already
asciilifeform: in babylon.
asciilifeform: ended badly, iirc
decimation: well, I was thinking about undata's problem
mircea_popescu: knapsacks grow faster than things to put in them!
mircea_popescu: by order of usgavin
asciilifeform: 'bag of holding' !
decimation: imagine a century from now, someone wants to verify a deed - he would need to transmit potentially millions of deed hashes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bag of treasuries.
Adlai: decimation: s/deed/transaction/
mircea_popescu: decimation wait wut ?
mircea_popescu: you only need to verify the bundle in question
Adlai is a little curious about this deed stuf
decimation: well, if the hash of the bundle is included in the bundle, how did the hash end up in the bundle?
thestringpuller: !s from:mircea_popescu sha1
mircea_popescu: decimation all submitted deeds during one hour go in the same bundle./
Adlai: asciilifeform: thx
decimation: okay, so each bundle has a hash, and the privkey of that bundle is the hash of the list of all past hashes
mircea_popescu: dude omg. not like he didn't say and get quoted x times.
mircea_popescu: !s from:punkman hash
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 20:32:15; punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key
BingoBoingo: https://coinfire.cf/2014/10/27/sec-begins-sending-investigation-letters/ << Coinfire has more people supposing important letters
asciilifeform: 'A character and its encoding are different concepts. An encoding and its (external) representation are different concepts. An external representation and the numeric values of whatever unit it is made up of are different concepts. By conflating all four concepts into one, Unix has held text processing and computing in general back several decades. This is fairly ironic, since Unix started out as a text proce
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo we probably should send them some letters too.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: All of the letters, entire doctors full of letters.
decimation: I guess it's not worth worrying about until there's an uptake in deedbot usage
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh i don't even agree. fuck all this subtlety of amuk idiocy. a character, its encoding, the representation thereof and its numeric value are all THE SAME THING. forever.
mircea_popescu: anyone trying to divorce any of these gets to burn in hell.
mircea_popescu: 27 letters and fuck you.
asciilifeform: - and --- forever.
asciilifeform: tidididahdahdah...
mircea_popescu: fixed offset.
mircea_popescu: NO PASARAN
asciilifeform dusts off telegraph key
decimation: .... .. - .... . .-. .
asciilifeform: shortwavecoin awaits.
mircea_popescu: -. --- / .--. .- ... .- .-. .- -.
decimation: bitcoin <is> shortwavecoin
thestringpuller: ... --- ...
bounce: also, one case. only. ever.
mircea_popescu: AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO THE ORIGINAL LISP DISCUNTSION.
bounce: typical how you're both reverting to upper case. who said that had to be the only one available?
thestringpuller: I don't like it when mircea_popescu yells.
mircea_popescu: SHUT UP BOUNCE
bounce: because logic. sure.
mircea_popescu: no, because allcaps!
Adlai: (setf *print-case* :downcase) ; pls
mircea_popescu: it's like if there were only one gender,
mircea_popescu: it'd be men.
decimation: most morse operators who have to send numbers use shortened versions
decimation: so zero ----- becomes - or 't'
decimation: how's that for symbol/number representation
bounce: no, it wouldn't. wouldn't be women either.
asciilifeform: ;;google ooloi
gribble: Oankali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oankali>; Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis Trilogy: An Introduction - Biology: <http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/books/butler1.html>; Imago: Book Three of the Xenogenesis Series (1989): <http://www.literatureandgenetics.org/viewwork.php?id=60>
mircea_popescu: yes it wouldn't be women lol
Adlai: if there were only one gender, "gender" the concept wouldn't exist
asciilifeform: (summary. aliens come, they have males, females, and ooloi. the latter run things and are really the only sentients. humans quickly discover that fucking in 3some with ooloi 'adapter' is the only really fun thing.)
mircea_popescu: Adlai how come everyone's smart yet the concept of stupid exists ?
Abelincoln: whats up everyone
Abelincoln: WHATS UP
decimation: !down Abelincoln
mircea_popescu: !down Abelincoln
asciilifeform: lol, firing squad
mircea_popescu: yeah, not qualified to troll here. go learn moirse.
undata: innovation is happening; deploy SEC!
Adlai: the gradient of idiocy is far more nuanced, although i guess our dead president is anchoring one end of it
decimation: eh. every new bureaucrat knows that they can 'embrace and extend' new territory by trying to 'get there first'
mircea_popescu: Over at reddit.com, we rewrote the site from Lisp to Python in the past week. It was pretty much done in one weekend. << lawl.
bounce: rulemaking, the frontier
Adlai: they must have been using the algol-compatibility subset
bounce: so what were the motivation and benefits of doing that?
asciilifeform: 'skilled man can write fortran in any language'
Adlai: it's kinda sad that going from CL to Python is a step backwards in concurrency support
mircea_popescu: bounce old story, 2005ish. "runs faster"
decimation: if true, it's probably that their lisp was retarded
mircea_popescu: "The Lisp newsgroup, comp.lang.lisp, was upset about the switch that they’re currently planning to write a competitor to reddit in Lisp, to show how right they are or something." << never happened, of course.
Adlai: bwahahahah
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually, the funny part - it sorta did. graham and his 'arc' (which was actually a spray paint over, if i recall, mzscheme)
Adlai: a reddit infested with c.l.l trolls would be interesting... i hope they'd bring along the markov chain idiocy spammers too
asciilifeform: ended up filling all the ancient stereotypes about 'slow'
Adlai: it's the fifty-year language, it takes fifty years until the HTTP client gets implemented
undata: dumb; at least they knew to stay away from Django
asciilifeform: Adlai: funny, because one of the first http stacks was john mallery's - in common lisp.
asciilifeform: on symbolics box, no less. ran last at the clinton white house, of all places.
Adlai didn't know, but isn't surprised
thestringpuller: undata: it's unfortunate python gets a bad wrap though, Djanga seems more stable than say node.js
mircea_popescu: anyway, that article is all about how arron s is great and wonderful.
mircea_popescu: which... whatever, when i start fucking boys i might care.
nubbins`: <asciilifeform> he can swear to his gods that he didn't make copies, but what kind of proof could possibly suffice as proof to a skeptic ? <<< probably no more than a few days of torture
thestringpuller: ^ mircea_popescu
undata: thestringpuller: the only way I can tolerate python is by considering it "functional" in the weak sense
asciilifeform: 'when we'll eat long pig? when short pig is through'
jurov: kakobrekla ponder this bit of wisdom from naggum: it has been instructive to see how people suddenly grasp that a date is always read and written in ISO 8601 format although the machine actually deals with it as a large integer...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller women will eventually run out...
jurov: ..Unix folks who are used to seeing the number _or_ a hacked-up crufty version of `ctime' output are truly amazed by this.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: how so?
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller because they're cuntable.
decimation: herr walker just introduced me to the 'rust' language: http://www.rust-lang.org/
decimation: it's kinda like c++ without the libraries
undata: decimation: the immutability by default thing is cool
asciilifeform: fuck immutability.
decimation: yeah, I don't get how that helps
asciilifeform: whenever someone says 'immutability', i wish i could replace his ram with antifuse rom.
asciilifeform: all the immutability you can handle.
Adlai is still waiting for a language to implement http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
asciilifeform: till it comes out yer ears.
decimation: asciilifeform: it's another symptom of the 'protect the programmer from himself' mentality
asciilifeform: it actually comes from the 'mathemasturbators'
decimation: ah, in terms of proofs?
nubbins`: !s sha256sum
asciilifeform: the 'we embezzled 40 years of grantola from usg to pretend our fourth-rate mathematics is relevant to computing' folks.
undata: I'm blessed to be among perfect programmers.
undata: as for myself, as many constraints as possible, please.
asciilifeform: haskell, ml, hindley-milner type systems.
nubbins`: anyone have a link handy for deed verification process?
undata: strict types, etc
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: well, its not hard to beat "hi you have incoming ddos, I understand this can be frustrating as this type of attack is usually a sign that your droplet has been compromised" <<< ahahaha wut ?
mircea_popescu: dude, logic.
Adlai: undata: run forrest, run! break out of those crutches!
undata: Adlai: when you intend to, you simply specify something mutable
mircea_popescu: "you have been raped. i understand this can be frustrationg as this is usually a sign that you are in fact a slut."
Adlai: run forrest, run!
Adlai: undata: see the object identity paper
undata: Adlai: I am already bigoted against OOP
undata: should I bother?
Adlai: yes
Adlai: once upon a time, "object" meant something other than "instance of a class"
mircea_popescu: i think oop is generally despised here.
undata: Adlai: I'd rather just have my types over here, and functions over there which use them
undata: I'll read it though.
undata: mircea_popescu: objects are just an intermediate shitbucket between global and local
Adlai: the paper has nothing to do with OOP, "object" could equally be replaced by "data"
asciilifeform: the crop of junk-oop systems of the 1990s will be tremendously expensive to future folks, who will avoid anything that smacks of 'objects' even when a particular apparatus actually wants to be represented in that shape
mircea_popescu: undata as actually encountered, pretty much. asciilifeform i guess so.
asciilifeform knows of only one non-retarded object system, CLOS
bounce doesn't mind OOP. there's some good ideas in there, even if most practitioners didn't get it.
asciilifeform: ;;google art of metaobject protocol
gribble: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol: Gregor Kiczales, Jim des ...: <http://www.amazon.com/The-Metaobject-Protocol-Gregor-Kiczales/dp/0262610744>; The Art of the Metaobject Protocol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Metaobject_Protocol>; MetaObject Protocol - Association of Lisp Users: <http://www.alu.org/mop>
asciilifeform: ^ as described there.
bounce: quite sure that if there wasn't OOP they'd've thought of something else to write crap code in
mircea_popescu: i guess a fairer evaluation is to say oop got the blessing of suck, the way www did.
mircea_popescu: experts everywhere.
asciilifeform: blessing of suck <<<<<
Adlai: asciilifeform: seen this? http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple
Adlai: turns out people actually use it
mircea_popescu: !s sykopomp
mircea_popescu: actually in teh logs. we got everything weird!
decimation: oop is one of those things that sounds great on paper, but when a group of programmers try to use it they end up with unmaintainable spaghetti code
asciilifeform: i've yet to meet a 'reinventor' of clos who actually understood all of clos
asciilifeform: or even showed symptoms of having so much as smelled the book gas in kiczales et al
Adlai: mircea_popescu: actually not in the logs, unless anybody paid attention when i brought it up :)
mircea_popescu: i'm never going to catch up to this log, am i.
asciilifeform: doesn't mean this 'nessie' isn't alive and well in some loch.
mircea_popescu: Adlai i still got the impression it was discussed before. maybe im just confused, maybe assbot was down right then, dunno.
asciilifeform blows dust off kiczales
asciilifeform notices no dust. because uses.
decimation: asciilifeform: I get the feeling that oop is sick at a metaphysical level
asciilifeform: oop as straightjacked (i.e. other than clos) - yes.
asciilifeform: *straightjacket
Adlai: we got stuck on how to implement a MOP for sheeple, and it hasn't seen enough use for people to miss it... but it's a rather faithful translation of MOPless CLOS
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: ;;later tell DanielKrawisz Looking forward to seeing you rationalize this gem <<< i dunno, it's like the guy went off the deep end past coupla weeks.
mircea_popescu: major bender or something.
bounce forgot who argued that of the four main things in OOP only encapsulation was really important, but things like (multiple) inheritance are just that much shinier
undata: oop is shitty function dispatch paired with some implicit scope stapled to your functions
undata: why?
asciilifeform: dafuq's the point of mopless clos
mircea_popescu: Adlai oh, you involved with the project ?
asciilifeform: that's like cockless man
asciilifeform: dulap!!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cockless man is sitll not woman!
Adlai: sykopomp was satoshi to my usgavin
mircea_popescu: fucking github.com. "Loading contributions…"
asciilifeform: the pitiful object systems that lack even basics like 'mixins' are not merely cockless, but armless, legless
mircea_popescu: take yer javascript an' shove it. fucking ajax things.
bounce: next you'll be saying ruby is the future
undata: haaaa
mircea_popescu: ruby is the failure
mircea_popescu: closest it gets to future.
asciilifeform: the ruby by yukihiro 'i half-learned common lisp, i confess' matsumoto ?
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: this represents a 200% greater loss than last year while revenue doubled. <<< yeah, the time to short the pos approaches.
mircea_popescu remembers riding rimm all the way down.
undata: python would be if not advisable, forgivible if someone ripped the classes out
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: hmm do comments not yield trackbacks? << wut ?
undata: and added type annotations
Adlai: in ze end, ve vil al be speking german...
mircea_popescu: undata well they made their own web.py class structure, back then
asciilifeform still can't grasp how a programming system having 'global interpreter lock' became a beloved tool
undata: because people are followers and it wasn't an informed decision
asciilifeform only has one theory, 'good-cop-bad-cop symbiosis' with perl
bounce: power of the crowd?
undata thinks random shuffling among the things people are capable of
asciilifeform: no, power of the frying pan
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I remember rejecting perl; finding pythong as the best alternative
Adlai: the GIL is good for limiting the amount of toes you can shoot off at once
decimation: they didn't teach lisp in those days
asciilifeform: who in his right mind would consider 'apple', for instance, if microshit did not exist
Adlai: do they teach lisp in any days, these days?
undata: man, this is the generation of programmers that thinks nosql is a great idea
undata: nobody knows shit.
asciilifeform: the folks who attend uni, sometimes even worse than never hearing of it at all, learn 'LISP'
decimation: asciilifeform: as in some ancient turd?
asciilifeform: that is, a deliberately archaic variant that brings back all the dark age stereotypes (slow, no iteration constructs, poor i/o)
asciilifeform: this generally ruins folks for life on the concept itself
undata grumbles about a bunch of JS developers farting out things like couchdb
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> who in his right mind would consider 'apple', for instance, if microshit did not exist << i don't run a windows machine. for me ms might as well not exist. however, i did get apple powered tablet to check out their game marketplace.
mircea_popescu: don't forget that. apple isn't a tech company, it's a media company.
asciilifeform: ^ different thing here
mircea_popescu: like LMVH, but exactly.
asciilifeform has a collection of apple gizmos for similar purposes
mircea_popescu: apple it's what yahoo has aspired at all these years. if they had any sense, they wouldn't have hired melissa no clue, they'd have hired jobs back then
Adlai: they've made some nice hardware too
mircea_popescu: Adlai in the sense of gucci bags, nice.
asciilifeform: afaik 'yahoo' was 'mmm' from day 1.
Adlai: well yes, that is a valid sense of the word
mircea_popescu: girl-nice, not boy-nice
decimation: asciilifeform: as in 3M?
asciilifeform: !s mavrodi
asciilifeform: ;;google mavrodi mmm
gribble: Sergei Mavrodi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Mavrodi>; MMM (Ponzi scheme company) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMM_(Ponzi_scheme_company)>; Новости МММ-2012 - page screenshot of ...: <http://3py4p4ods8eqivzcenynzr9rp7gt35bzg399i2tksesul6wmpyfe1nsawtno.com/news/>
decimation: ah multilevel marketing
asciilifeform: pyramid.
Adlai: dunno, some of apple's earlier hardware was boy-nice too
mircea_popescu: and they nearly went bankrupt with it.
asciilifeform: who, exactly, sells 'boy' nice ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the chinese.
Adlai likes his lenovo thinkpad
asciilifeform prods barely-adequate lenovo
decimation: eh, chinese just build to us specs generally
Adlai: the IBM thinkpad is good too, and still running like clockwork, 12 years later
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform golden turd, remember ?
Adlai: although linux may have something to do with this
kakobrekla: golden turd? downed pilot.
mats_cd03: nvm paywalled, don't click that
asciilifeform: running like clockwork, 12 years later << so wat. i've a symbolics 3620 'running like clockwork' 28 years later.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla "golden phoenix"
asciilifeform: golden turd corp. - will build anything, yes.
Adlai: do you actually have a lispm?
asciilifeform: !s 3620
kakobrekla: Adlai its for sale in bitcoin otc
asciilifeform: Adlai: not only, but it's for sale.
Adlai: vnhm?
Adlai looks in the otc book
mircea_popescu: cazalla: question if anyone can help - is there a genuine security reason for someone to refuse to disclose how they generate entropy for the private keys contained in their physical bitcoin coin products? << not really, no. other than "we don't have a clue how it's done but this is sekoority and so being mysterious is the next best thing"
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 as in, didn't understand taleb's point ? or as in what ?
assbot: Logged on 18-08-2014 16:12:29; asciilifeform: but no, somehow, 'gmo' equals what monsanto inc. does.
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2014 19:19:30; asciilifeform: except - they aren't banning monsanto garbage. they're banning 'gmo.'
asciilifeform: !s monsanto
undata: mats_cd03: probably going to need a biologist to get a reasonable response
assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 23:50:40; asciilifeform: ;;sell 1 "Symbolics 3620 Lisp Machine. Photos: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=51" at 3 btc must pick up in Washington, D.C. area, this item cannot be shipped economically.
undata: who fucking knows; it's like anything with humans. we'll do it, I know that for sure.
undata: and so we'll find out
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tbh i always wondered about the "shipping economically" part. surely 100lbs worth of various things have been shipped before, even in the us ?
Adlai: ammo!
undata: it's like Elon Musk recently with AI. He's been calling that "potentially more dangerous than nukes"
undata: maybe so, but if it can happen, it will happen
decimation: in the us, with that weight class, one must deal with 'freight operators'
Adlai: asciilifeform: still for sale for 3btc?
mircea_popescu: go go teamsters union for btc!
decimation: can be done, just a pain in the ass
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: good question! answer: packing it in such a way as to guarantee safe shipping would be prohibitively expensive. the man i bought it from, david schmidt (last symbolics employee) refuses to ship his remaining stock, after a multitude of DOAs.
kakobrekla: STILL has stock?
asciilifeform: it's been a few years since i asked.
Adlai: (it's not in the b-otc order book anymore)
asciilifeform: write/telephone him.
asciilifeform: yes, still for sale
kakobrekla: just curious, not worthy of bothering the man.
asciilifeform: wtf did the otc go ?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: he loves being bothered.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform expired order?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: ancient grandfather type
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know such a thing as cpt/cip exists
mircea_popescu: doesn't have to be exw
asciilifeform: it would have to be packed and handled like a ming vase.
asciilifeform: a 100kg ming vase.
decimation: surely symbolics shipped these when they were new
asciilifeform: plus the only way the buyer can be sure that it functions, is to power it on where it stands now.
asciilifeform: otherwise he can say 'scammer, shipped dud'
asciilifeform: (most of the extant units are duds at this point)
mircea_popescu: i guess this is a point
decimation: well, that's a good point, electrolytics and everything like that
asciilifeform: those aren't the problem
asciilifeform: the multitude of card edge connectors, mainly, are, plus the ancient hdd
mircea_popescu: that should be fixable no ? the card edges
asciilifeform: fixable how?
decimation: connector springs fail?
asciilifeform: if they snap - that's that
asciilifeform: the edges themselves. fiberglass pcb.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, epoxy paste ?
mircea_popescu: people can reconstruct tits and virginity. you telling me they can't remake a board edge ?
asciilifeform: also have to appreciate the hdd. if it croaks, an equivalent unit will not actually make the machine go. os can only be installed from tape. i own neither the tape deck nor the tape.
mircea_popescu: !up JimDowJones
asciilifeform: a serious museum curator - such as david s. - could finesse these issues, yes.
Duffer1: asciilifeform it would have to be packed and handled like a ming vase >> bonded courier
asciilifeform: this particular machine was, iirc, assembled from surviving parts of the DOAs.
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 he has a point tho, museums routinely pay exorbitant fees to move their fragile shoit around.
asciilifeform: bonded courier will test box at my house prior to shipment? lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yep.
Duffer1: no doubt, sorry i've only followed a few lines of the convo :P
asciilifeform: there are perhaps 20 people on planet qualified to test this machine.
asciilifeform: as in, verify that all the parts actually function.
mircea_popescu: so they will have to hire one.
asciilifeform: as things are now, i expect that it will be brought to my 'peine forte et dure.'
mircea_popescu: undertand, shipping is a solved problem. it just costs money, but it's not the case that consumer mail is all there is.
asciilifeform: i will certainly ask for it...
asciilifeform: i know full well that it's a solved problem.
BingoBoingo: For a sufficiently exorbitant price I may be willing to serve as courier within CONUS.
asciilifeform: i am swimming in 'solved problems' that i - in particular - cannot access the solutions to.
asciilifeform: because - elementarily - cost.
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3XGFMWV.txt )
mircea_popescu: it's better than swimming in fresh curetage product
mircea_popescu: if only marginally.
asciilifeform: !s shitburial
asciilifeform seriously considered donating the box to 'smithsonian'
mircea_popescu: omg kakobrekla bitbet is down!
mircea_popescu: scam finally ran with the bitcoinz ?
kakobrekla: all 4 of them.
mircea_popescu: i knew mp would never pay on that berkshire bet.
decimation: I was listening to this podcast: http://www.theamphour.com/201-cheap-respins-and-a-time-machine-multiscience-mercenary-marketplace/ << the guy from the satellite company said he had to drive his small sats to the shake table
decimation: sats encountered more shock on the road
kakobrekla: hm, some berkshire bettors must be sweating.
mircea_popescu: punkman: asciilifeform: cazalla: little to gain, plenty to lose << but they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools << asciilifeform yes, nobody requires them to send sample units. something like "we're buying atmospheric noise off random.org folks" or "sixty free cs servers, and we suck the urand pool dry" or w/e.
asciilifeform: point is, why tell tale if no one will believe.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
TheNewDeal: no bitbet mirror?
mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal kako's workin' on it.
mircea_popescu: im just here eating cookies and giving him a hard time.
TheNewDeal: before I can even think it
Duffer1: usg dossing it?
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 nah moar like, random derp.
nubbins` groans
asciilifeform: decimation: sats encountered more shock on the road << see also the famous film 'longitude'
mircea_popescu: this is beneficial tho, i had some good lolz reading the support tickets earlier in logs
nubbins`: punkman, a code snippet from your deed processing routine plz?
TheNewDeal: example?
Duffer1: i can imagine mp lol
decimation: yeah most pendulum clocks didn't do well in a swaying ship
assbot: Logged on 28-10-2014 02:16:07; mircea_popescu: "you have been raped. i understand this can be frustrationg as this is usually a sign that you are in fact a slut."
Duffer1: panic attacks areen't fun
asciilifeform: decimation: nah, the scene where harrison's opponents contrieve to have his clock shipped from one town to another on a suspension-less oxcart
mircea_popescu: punkbot yeah can deedbot be os yet
TheNewDeal: that link was like dejavu
BingoBoingo: http://robrhinehart.com/?p=1152 << Oh, YCombinator guy who imagines he killed food pretends to do the same for water and sanitation
decimation: asciilifeform: I bet you had alot of sympathy for harrison
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to make omlet, you need to break eggs!
TheNewDeal: nubbins` was asking for a deed snippet
TheNewDeal: oop was getting trashed
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo if only he could be teamed up with templeos guy.
nubbins`: TheNewDeal i'm just trying to verify one of these things but it's hard if i don't know the process
mircea_popescu: nubbins` you know it was listed like 5 times in da log ? most recently an hour ago ?
TheNewDeal: I feel ya, I would like to learn as well. Seems like an incredibly useful tool
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: At least TempleOS is fun in a retro way. Future archaologist may imagine it was actually widely used by a large sect
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo they could solve DREAMS dude.
BingoBoingo: Or make all of the sleep REM
nubbins`: mircea_popescu yeah and there's something more to it than that, because instructions as given don't work
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 20:32:15; punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key
mircea_popescu: "don't work" is the best error message, after... anything else.
asciilifeform: 'guru meditation error'
mircea_popescu: at least that has a stack trace, something.
nubbins`: fair enough
nubbins`: following the instructions as provided does not result in the same private key
nubbins`: how else would it not work? :S
mircea_popescu: you could list the private key you got.
mircea_popescu: so we can verify you did in fact follow the instruction rather than honestly think you did.
nubbins`: first, sha256sum: fb53b9449532fbca07a611572ae4424932e36c7ce492785a9a028bb019cb78a0
nubbins`: in base58: Hv5NuwL5sSvAvWQWSQGDehN5ysrfPvxoVdosrWfk3kAB
gernika: mircea_popescu: Can you recommend a good neighborhood for a short stay in Buenos Aires?
mircea_popescu: gernika are you rich ?
nubbins`: sha256sum again: 049aebffb61c7f2497a11a1d70bf2756ceb0d1b259823bf1e9b70ff617911325
nubbins`: base58 again: JyeP2YHXHzHr8HtyAf2cq5bLRMwuKH5hCWBYoPdqrfe
mircea_popescu: gernika if you like to hang out with expats/foreign kids the palermos and perhaps ricoletta.
mircea_popescu: recoleta*
gernika: mircea_popescu ok. had been looking at palermo.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`'s host kicked him off the internets because he has been posting base58 strings to irc.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` ty!
asciilifeform: you all doing the 'sha(sha(...' by the neck until dead thing?
decimation: maybe he put a comma after?
mircea_popescu: decimation i think he omitted the comma after.
mircea_popescu: 1st shasum ik get 1d834ceaf8b81bd9f53dec3f4befd06f65ee422248f2c2edaf55e825bd2228c0 in any case.
mircea_popescu: so the more likely hypo is "osx fucks up characters yo!"
nubbins`: so for a single deed, trailing comma or no?
nubbins`: mircea_popescu impossibru ;p
mircea_popescu: i think always trailing comma, but anyway, your 1st sha is off ?
asciilifeform: fucks up characters yo << recall also how various turdware mutilates quotation marks.
asciilifeform: (not sure if this is at play here)
mircea_popescu: i guess best practice, "1st check deed signature, then hash to verify deed".
mircea_popescu: goose and gander process.
nubbins`: er yeah, i don't get the same shasum as you at all
nubbins` frowns
mircea_popescu: nubbins` see how much better life is here in the paradise of proper error messages ?
nubbins`: wait, no, there we go
nubbins`: reading it from a file here produces a different hash
nubbins` raises eyebrow
mircea_popescu: clearly you are in charge of your computing.
nubbins`: clearly :/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: punkman: they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools << and you'll believe? << for the record, description is not strictly a belief-driven phenomenon. consider at its most basic, schooling. teacher describes to you grammar. do you believe ? no, if you're in any way sane, not right off. but eventually what was a hypothesis gets tested out.
mircea_popescu: the wot, incidentally, works on exactly the same premise. one can make any declaration one wishes. it's not believed per se, but that's irrelevant. as time goes by confirmation either mouts or does not.
asciilifeform: in this case - belief.
mircea_popescu: i don't see how a case can be different from any other in a system where "one can make any declaration"
asciilifeform: namely, in the case of the physical coins, the only way to know whether you'll be fucked is - when you are.
mircea_popescu: business is not a matter of certain truth.
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/38DD41W.txt )
mircea_popescu: the way to know how long your cock is is to ask god, because obviously measurement will yield an error.
asciilifeform: let's rephase - the only information you will ever get re: being fucked, in the case of the physcoins, is being fucked.
asciilifeform: *rephrase
mircea_popescu: not so. this is like saying "the only way to identify boys from girls is as you're moaning".
asciilifeform: how exactly can mr. physcoin prove that he did not use mersenne twister for N....N+k for some N?
mircea_popescu: you can at the very least obtain the "most likely to fuckceed" information on a set of identifiable, different providers.
mircea_popescu: compare fuckhistory.
asciilifeform: for physcoins - that's like measuring proton decay.
asciilifeform: hasn't happened, afaik.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, it occurs to me that while some start-ups succeed, a vast majority suckceed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is much weaker than your original statement tho
asciilifeform: if i recall, that was, that none of these folks have much incentive to speak up re: process
mircea_popescu: and this is a cognate of "there's no point getting in the wot, i have real world friends"
mircea_popescu: similarly of, "i have no interest signing other people's code"
mircea_popescu: which, incidentally, ima make a post about, cause this is starting to coallesce in my head.
asciilifeform has interest! but not for phree
asciilifeform: actually on second thought - better hypothesis for the physcoins - atavistic, Ur-fear of being pwned
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "there's no point getting in the wot, i have real world friends" << WoT isn't Facebook...*sigh*
asciilifeform would sign code, if some loony were to pay what the kind of labour that is involved in honestly signing 'will die by this' actually costs...
asciilifeform: even something as pedestrian as 'valgrind' is laborious for a large turdatronic system.
kakobrekla: actually costs... < well, your life.
asciilifeform: lives - cheap. quality work - costs.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: what's an alternative to Valgrind?
asciilifeform: not using c/cpp/associated hardware.
asciilifeform: and valgrind is not a magic pill
asciilifeform: any more than 'lint' is.
asciilifeform: (who here even remembers lint.)
mod6: me too
asciilifeform not alone in lintitude
thestringpuller: you guise r old
mod6: i actually had a leagal drink for the billinium
mod6: *legal too :D
thestringpuller: mod6: i actually had a leagal drink for the billinium <<< i was just growing pubes. now I don't feel quite so old.
mod6: heheh
mircea_popescu: i had my first legal drink in... 1990 ? something like that.
mod6: so the day after the 'billennium', Sept. 9th 2001, I think that was the day that rummy was like "Oops, we somehow misplaced 1tn."
mod6: *the day after
mircea_popescu: one trillion ?
mod6: yeah. i was like "holy shit! is this guy kidding?! how do you do that?!"
thestringpuller: Didn't a shipping container with 100 billion or so get lost in Iraq in the early 2000's as well?
thestringpuller: nvm 12 bn
asciilifeform: in genuine benjies no less
undata: in the movie, the CIA stole it and started ISIS with it
nubbins`: okay, i just wasn't stripping newline from eof
nubbins`: so 1st shasum: 1d834ceaf8b81bd9f53dec3f4befd06f65ee422248f2c2edaf55e825bd2228c0
nubbins`: to base58: 2zCwsSPNidLE9aEBTx4bh6Vrv7XrmJa9fAw8o8S8wrCX
nubbins`: second shasum: 581beb0a0aec036351e239da11595fe67c1cf5dc817019716999f2040b96e84f
mod6: ok, actually, it was 2.3tn
mod6 laughs
nubbins`: now what?
asciilifeform: 'Asked what had happened to the $8.8bn he replied: "I have no idea. I can't tell you whether or not the money went to the right things or didn't - nor do I actually think it's important."'
mircea_popescu: nubbins` now import it ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform win.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu according to deeds.bitcoin-assets.com i'm supposed to end up with the brainwallet passphrase "BXZKQx2iLYyRpUCmdWCqJBvgUdvqWH4EE8TV1ns3pxLZ"
TheNewDeal: is it sha > sha > base58?
mod6: i remember watching it on tv
nubbins`: but i don't know how to get from the second shasum to that
mod6: they probably 1984'd it
nubbins`: TheNewDeal sha > base58 > sha > ???
TheNewDeal: sorry, was just a guess
nubbins`: > brainwallet passphrase > private key
mircea_popescu: nubbins` another 58 in there no ?
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 20:32:15; punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key
nubbins`: beats me!
mircea_popescu: a ok, so 2nd sha is the privkey. import it nao ?
nubbins`: doing an additional base58 doesn't produce BXZKQx2iLYyRpUCmdWCqJBvgUdvqWH4EE8TV1ns3pxLZ
nubbins`: 2nd sha is not the privkey afaict
nubbins`: privkey is 5HsNWxt5bbBiSvVWbtXMBcoQTzfXgqyPEmDWcAymXdu1o9edra3
mircea_popescu: how do you know that ?
nubbins`: because that's the private key generated from brainwallet passphrase BXZKQx2iLYyRpUCmdWCqJBvgUdvqWH4EE8TV1ns3pxLZ
mircea_popescu: why's brainwallet passphrase enter in here ?
mircea_popescu: nubbins` i don't get it ?
mircea_popescu: explain to me like i'm a nubbin!
nubbins`: you put BXZ... into passphrase box
nubbins`: privkey 5HsN... comes up
nubbins`: pub address 149LB... comes up
nubbins`: since 149LB... is the public address indicated on the deed
mircea_popescu: you mean to tell me you reverse-engineered the privkey on the basis of the address ?
nubbins`: no, i mean to tell you i put the deed ID into brainwallet.org and it spit out the associated public address
nubbins`: if the deed ID is not a brainwallet passphrase, the laws of probability have broken down
mircea_popescu: 149LB8VYaT1BdMLyQUL92Kj6KrJfNwcp64 specifically ?
mircea_popescu: i seem to get 1EppwHWgqBVo9TdZmLWjpNMp7w5zyrKokB ?
nubbins`: you entering BXZKQx2iLYyRpUCmdWCqJBvgUdvqWH4EE8TV1ns3pxLZ into "passphrase" textbox?
nubbins` raises eyebrow
mircea_popescu: 3ab7aea90551ed0bebc37b66dae9ff9f89e60e15d9cc85ab76c922322a88b033 5JG9SZLueh5AcJEvMeZrNT3oHEd27hhUrFydq4EVVWC2RoXFc3S
mircea_popescu: 1D37yABoLo7Ma4LeR6jW8ZhJxLXdQmsbsH if i select compressed.
nubbins`: if you enter kLuzx7GDPg8uXRawaZG9ndU7hfTd8CBHSTCCffSdzLA ?
mircea_popescu: 19xKa5GkCBFM9XnEcHp1mjoiXi7x7oXKzn / 1G7XajvC1SChrQqBzVG7mDMkAaiT1jWU4G
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