#trilema | 2014-02-15

moiety: if charles was to go and be king, he would have to give up all his Duke of Edinburgh responsibilities etc. He has balls, what I'm meaning is he couldn't do what *he* wanted specifically

moiety: he wanted more leaway to do all the charity and good things he does

moiety: i think harry wouldve been better

moiety: do they even have a role now?

moiety: apart from waving

Vexual: he has a range of preserves

Vexual: willys got an attack copter

moiety: he looks about 70 already

Vexual: im thinking you might be right

Vexual: what a very scottish way of convincing me

moiety: lol what...badly?!

Vexual: no very well sir

moiety: where are you from Vexual?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00087594 = 12.2194 BTC [+] {2}

Vexual: australie

moiety: oh election time for you then

Vexual: im not enrolled

moiety: i got enrolled to vote for independence

Vexual: cool

Vexual: i eamil secretarys when i need something done; infinitely fore effective

benkay: deploy capital

Vexual: its amazing how people will take unsolicited advice worded correctly

assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

Vexual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go

ozbot: Johnny Cash Hurt - YouTube

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2750 @ 0.00087599 = 2.409 BTC [+]

Vexual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lOb799cTxM

ozbot: Black Box Ride on Time [ 1989 ] HD version - YouTube

Vexual: how the fuck am i goona play bb with 100k?

BingoBoingo: Vexual: ?

BingoBoingo: Vexual: What's Batman's greatest weapon?

Vexual: i dunno

Vexual: the call to arms from the sky?

Vexual: oh

Vexual: time for another video

Vexual: don't answer that

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Deception.

Vexual: whaddya you mean, hes fucking batman

BingoBoingo: Huh, looks like I should have put more money on Slovenia than I did.

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Yeah. But he is good at deception. That is how he uses all of these high tech weapons while hiding he is almost as rich as Mircea.

Vexual: hmm

Vexual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5rDmSY6N4

BingoBoingo: Vexual: I mean how many peopl in Gotham can afford Batman tools? Maybe 5-10?

ozbot: Dizzee Rascal - Dirtee Cash ( Offcial Video HQ.) - YouTube

Vexual: ny gotham or gotham gotham?

Vexual: gg yah?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.000876 = 3.7668 BTC [+] {2}

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Imagination land version.

Vexual: ok

BingoBoingo: I actually had a neighbor named Batman once.

Vexual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxjdg_D5YQY

ozbot: Wiley - Wearing My Rolex (Official Music Video) - YouTube

moiety: sorry delayed response: Vexual: it's a national vote, i don't think they let you email it in

Vexual: lol

moiety: BingoBoingo: batman? please tell me there was also a Robin on your street

BingoBoingo: moiety: Nah. THis was grad school so we lived in the same building.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11206 @ 0.00087603 = 9.8168 BTC [+]

moiety: bound to have been a Robin too then.... ok, I'm satisfied

Vexual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inn4juu0Cfs

ozbot: Iggy Azalea - My World (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - YouTube

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.5584855 = 1.117 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.56822498 = 11.3645 BTC [+] {4}

BingoBoingo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvcHVesIzMU

ozbot: Tatu - Nas Nie Dogoniat - YouTube

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.57287264 = 6.3016 BTC [+] {4}

BingoBoingo: Fuck Yeah, Slovenia whooped the shit out of Slovakia.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.5755599 = 11.5112 BTC [+] {4}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58669728 = 11.7339 BTC [+] {8}

mircea_popescu: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/13/1277249/-Reporters-Without-Borders-United-States-plummets-in-Press-Freedom-Index

ozbot: Reporters Without Borders: United States plummets in Press Freedom Index

mircea_popescu: "Compared to other nations, the United States ranks just below Romania, and just above Haiti"

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58976433 = 11.7953 BTC [+] {6}

mircea_popescu: you know... haiti.

BingoBoingo: See Mircea, your blog has been safer than mine the whole time.

mircea_popescu: Much of Eastern and Central Europe rates better than the United States, and from Western Europe, only Italy rates worse.

mircea_popescu: italy. you know... the scum of yurp

mircea_popescu: seems so lol

BingoBoingo: Well, Ever since the Etruscans, Italy has been kind of fucked

mircea_popescu: In January 2012, the SEC charged an Illinois-based investment adviser with offering to sell fictitious securities on LinkedIn and issued two alerts in an agency-wide effort to highlight the risks investors and advisory firms face when using social media. Anthony Fields offered more than $500 billion in fictitious securities through various social media websites. For example, he used LinkedIn discussions to promote fict

mircea_popescu: itious bank guarantees and medium-term notes.

mircea_popescu: sooo... anyone want to guess as to the guy's bitcointalk name ?

BingoBoingo: That's before my time.

BingoBoingo: Imma guess Augusto Croppo?

chetty: hmm something Trader ..

mircea_popescu: i have no idea whatsoever, just guessing

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00087604 = 9.0232 BTC [+] {2}

BingoBoingo: Phineas is the only other Illinoisian, but Anthony and Bruno are different names.

BingoBoingo: Dunno if Augusto is Illinoisian, but Anthony sounds like a name that might degrade to that nick.

mircea_popescu: nominalism seems hardly grounds to impugn anyone.

BingoBoingo: Of course not.

BingoBoingo: Which is why I made a stab in the dark thinking someone who offered the question might have had the name in mind.

Vexual: wheres the real estate guy?

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Ohio

BingoBoingo: Chicago's way outside of my area of operation anyways.

Vexual: yeah i now that, if hes buying millies he should know about the whole country

BingoBoingo: I mean they built their downtown around an open sewer

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: Several of my favorite memories from Undergrad involve throwing up or shitting into the Chicago river.

Vexual: fuck id need many tributaries to manage that

BingoBoingo: Vexual: It worked out, because there were Sherpas in the group I traveled to Chicago with. Nobody handles sick ghostfaces better than Sherpas.

pankkake: BingoBoingo: ATC address?

BingoBoingo: pankkake: 14UCZyAxu73kF18SrsR6Ud6Xcy1ZnVWfTA

pankkake: sent

BingoBoingo: pankkake: Recieved.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4284 @ 0.00087308 = 3.7403 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm ready to see what I can do by the Ides of March

mircea_popescu: o hey that works out splendidly doesn't it. teh ideas of march.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9399 @ 0.00087282 = 8.2036 BTC [-] {2}

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course.

pankkake: I wonder how many have stopped mining atc waiting for the diff to come down

mircea_popescu: kind of self feeding cycle that neh ?

pankkake: long diff periods definitely don't work for altcoins

BingoBoingo: pankkake: I wouldn't be surprised if kakobrekla is waiting for the drop to fire up the Buttfuries

Vexual: my 7770 wont cut it

Vexual: even p2pool

Vexual: when that new am shit dropping?

BingoBoingo: Oh, roughly 12 hours until my birthday starts.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00087228 = 6.5421 BTC [-] {2}

Vexual: ukyo could point his machines at it and get red by summer

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4137 @ 0.00087552 = 3.622 BTC [+] {3}

Vexual: it's my cat's birthday

BingoBoingo: Vexual, I may or may not be your cat in disguise

Vexual: yar, i don't know what im doing

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13450 @ 0.00087671 = 11.7917 BTC [+] {3}

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Maybe lock your cat in the closet and if I keep responding on IRC, you can by empiricism demonstrate I am not your cat.

Vexual: actual cat?

BingoBoingo: Vexual: The only meanigful test is actual empiricism

Vexual: i thought my cat was somewhere eating things...

BingoBoingo: Vexual: Eating things or communicating through a mouth operated Internet device.

mircea_popescu: http://www.zeekrewardsreceivership.com/

ozbot: ZeekRewards Receivership Website

mircea_popescu: anyone remember those ?

BingoBoingo: Nope

mircea_popescu: at the time pirate ran his 7% a week thing, there was an irl 7% a week thing

mircea_popescu: that.

mircea_popescu: after pirate collapsed people speculated there was some relation.

BingoBoingo: I should have started a lot earlier

BingoBoingo: I missed the era of the stupid controlling an actual portion of the BTC monetary mass.

mircea_popescu: nutty times. everyone knew better.

mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 653.0, Best ask: 653.17, Bid-ask spread: 0.17000, Last trade: 653.0, 24 hour volume: 37379.48623285, 24 hour low: 625.0, 24 hour high: 712.9, 24 hour vwap: 662.084329952

BingoBoingo: I just regret that one of the hot active threads when I started was the Usagi == Scammer thread back before Deprived did a runner.

BingoBoingo: Time machine would be a better investment for anyone interested in BTC than an ASIC.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: I wonder how long people could be strung along on a time machine pre-order though.

mircea_popescu: lol

mircea_popescu: make sure it has fans.

BingoBoingo: I'll make sure the photoshop shames Box of Fans Labs itself.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.07200001 = 0.432 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: !t m x.eur

assbot: [MPEX:X.EUR] 1D: 0.00194567 / 0.00199455 / 0.00212562 (1800 shares, 3.59 BTC), 7D: 0.00194567 / 0.00198701 / 0.00212562 (3350 shares, 6.66 BTC), 30D: 0.0016245 / 0.00177273 / 0.00212562 (22850 shares, 40.51 BTC)

mircea_popescu: how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002

mircea_popescu: the eur is like 300 neh ?

BingoBoingo: Maybe davout is slacking?

pankkake: ThickAsThieves: I realize coinmarketcap actually wants number of coins, not number of blocks. I fixed it, replace "blocks" by "coins" in the URL I gave you

mircea_popescu: make a fucking killing, buy futures worth 0.003 at 0.002

mircea_popescu: i guess everyone was slacking

BingoBoingo: Well, operation dominate the ATC market may have begun?

FabianB: ;;calc 1/0.00212518

gribble: 470.548377079

FabianB: ;;ticker --market all --currency eur

gribble: MtGox BTCEUR last: 244.1, vol: 7081.41796619 | Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 473.79027, vol: 36481.52612339 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 465.0, vol: 532.78059 | CampBX BTCEUR last: 475.3602, vol: 314.60590746 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 478.829596, vol: 13103.20800000 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.584660985

assbot: 123!

FabianB: < 300 eur is only gox

mircea_popescu: ah i just looked at bitcoincharts basket

mircea_popescu: i guess they killed mtgoxusd but not eur

FabianB: looks like future is priced ok

pankkake: bitcoin-central is 485

mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1/485

gribble: 0.0020618556701

pankkake: and still not on bitcoincharts!

mircea_popescu: FabianB good to see the mkt is actually healthjy, i had a moment of panic.

FabianB: nah, looks good

mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.0016245

gribble: 1.30847645429

mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 00.00194567

gribble: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)

mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.00194567

gribble: 1.09248742079

mircea_popescu: you know that is beautiful, 1.30 for 30 days, 1.09 for the week

mircea_popescu: anyway, im off. gl everyone.

kakobrekla: grenade launcher to you too.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00087552 = 3.6772 BTC [-]

davout: hi all

BingoBoingo: Hai davout

davout: "how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002" <- I WTF'd

davout: :D

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00087552 = 5.1656 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]

kakobrekla: what is 'this' ?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 100 @ 0.0055 = 0.55 BTC

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.07379895 = 0.369 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.12210003 = 0.4884 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.19376446 = 0.7751 BTC [+]

kakobrekla: ;;calc 20000/356

gribble: 56.1797752809

BingoBoingo: K, everybody. Altcoin is ready for the Moon. Imma get some sleep.

davout: kakobrekla: X.EUR

kakobrekla: a a.

kakobrekla: BingoBoingo : grenade lancher!

kakobrekla: launcher

BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Of course. It is the best sounds to go to sleep to.

kakobrekla: :)

BingoBoingo: Napalm scented candles are relaxing too.

kakobrekla: lel can you get those?!

BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: You can make them.

kakobrekla: myea i guess so

kakobrekla: need some azn meat first or smth

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00087552 = 0.1751 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Is goat azn enough?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12569 @ 0.00087707 = 11.0239 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.07379895 = 0.5166 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 10 @ 0.12210003 = 1.221 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.19376446 = 1.7439 BTC [+]

kakobrekla: lol

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07379895 = 0.2214 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 9930 @ 0.00017 = 1.6881 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8288 @ 0.00087716 = 7.2699 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.53580001 = 1.0716 BTC [-] {2}

ThickAsThieves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yge311sFhC8

ozbot: Gene Burnett - Jump You F*#kers (A Song For Wall Street) - YouTube

ThickAsThieves: "At one point during the debate a brawl broke out in which one MP from the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) had his nose broken."

ThickAsThieves: (Turkish)

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1792 @ 0.00087336 = 1.5651 BTC [-] {2}

the20year1: what country ThickAsThieves?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 450 @ 0.0002249 = 0.1012 BTC [-]

ThickAsThieves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26205515

ozbot: BBC News - Turkish MPs pass judicial reforms amid brawl

Diablo-D3: yeah, turkey needs to figure out their shit

ThickAsThieves: there's a pic too

ThickAsThieves: of the bloody nosed guy

Diablo-D3: this is not how you conduct a democracy

kakobrekla: says some american douche

Diablo-D3: kakobrekla: I never said the USA was a democracy

punkman: I think we should have more politician brawls

Diablo-D3: but if this happened in congress, I'd want both the guy being hit and the guy hitting to be both expelled

kakobrekla: are we again playing 'i want' game?

Diablo-D3: no

Diablo-D3: because you're trolling

Diablo-D3: and you dont deserve to play it

ThickAsThieves: shit, if our politicians actually got in fistfights, americans might even pay attention to politics

ThickAsThieves: "hey bro, glad to see our coins have the same name 'ALTCOIN', can we work together? what's your plan on thealtcoin ATC?"

punkman: ThickAsThieves, not really worth the attention

ThickAsThieves: so many people ask me this

ThickAsThieves: what are my plans!>

punkman: but why not have opposing sides actually fight to pass legislation

the20year1: back in the day in the US, people would get in knife fights in congress

kakobrekla: ThickAsThieves world domination naturally.

ThickAsThieves: thanks kako, a simple enough reply

kakobrekla: o Diablo-D3 butthurt eh

kakobrekla: U CANT HAZ PLAY THIS NO!!

kakobrekla: BUT I WANT.

Diablo-D3: hahaha I just trolled kakobrekla

ThickAsThieves: http://animalnewyork.com/2014/sesame-street-fighter-real-game/

ozbot: 'Sesame Street Fighter' Is a Real Game - ANIMAL

kakobrekla: i dunno who did what or who did who or what did who but i have the banhammer and i dont like your style.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.073 = 0.219 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 97 @ 0.00508498 = 0.4932 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12341 @ 0.00087407 = 10.7869 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12794 @ 0.00087314 = 11.171 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12210005 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]

monkey: !last h am1

assbot: Last trade for AM1 on HAVELOCK was at 0.53580001 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.00087407 = 5.6815 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00087286 = 6.0227 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26982 @ 0.00087214 = 23.5321 BTC [-] {4}

Mats_cd03: goxbtc continues to sail into the ground

praeconium: Is it possible to pull out coins?

Mats_cd03: lolno

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 585 @ 0.00021584 = 0.1263 BTC [-] {4}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 677 @ 0.00021523 = 0.1457 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7600 @ 0.00087215 = 6.6283 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00087407 = 4.2829 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.63932407 BTC to 1`709 shares, 95923 satoshi per share

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] [PAID] 1.02106640 BTC to 77`944 shares, 1310 satoshi per share

dexX7: http://www.similarweb.com/website/mpex.co#/#icbit.se,btclevels.com http://www.similarweb.com/website/bitfunder.com#/#havelockinvestments.com,cryptostocks.com

benkay: pretty lulzy

benkay: slow day, dexX7?

dexX7: hehe yea

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44700 @ 0.00087224 = 38.9891 BTC [-] {4}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10000 @ 0.00022735 = 2.2735 BTC [+] {9}

benkay: (format "butts %s %s" "foo" \n)

benkay: oh excuse me that was meant for my repl

benkay: not caffinated yet

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 725 @ 0.00022749 = 0.1649 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06899999 = 0.207 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087182 = 9.4592 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49100 @ 0.00087091 = 42.7617 BTC [-] {4}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 25 @ 0.10771993 = 2.693 BTC [-] {5}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.11389999 = 1.139 BTC [+] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2278 @ 0.00087038 = 1.9827 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 690 @ 0.00043921 = 0.3031 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087008 = 9.4404 BTC [-] {3}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [7C] 72 @ 0.00492365 = 0.3545 BTC [-] {4}

francis_wolke: The designated occasion for clearing Babylonia's financial slate was the New Year festival, celebrated in the spring. Babylonian rulers oversaw the ritual "breaking of the tablets," that is, the debt records, restoring economic balance as part of the cyclical renewal of society along with the rest of nature. Hammurabi and his fellow rulers signaled

francis_wolke: these proclamations by raising a torch, probably symbolizing the sun-god of justice Shamash, whose principles where supposed to guide wise and fair rulers. Persons held as debt pledges were released to rejoin their families. Other debtors were restored cultivation rights to their customary lands, free of whatever mortgage liens had accumulated.

francis_wolke: Over the next several thousand years, this same list -- canceling the debts, destroying the records, reallocating the land -- was to become the standard list of demands of peasant revolutionaries everywhere. In Mesopotamia, rulers appear to have headed off the possibility of unrest by instituting such reforms themselves, as a grand gesture of cosmi

francis_wolke: c renewal, a recreation of the social universe -- in Babylonia, during the same ceremony in which the king reenacts his godMurduk's creation of the physical universe. The history of debt and sin was wiped out, and it was time to begin again. But it's also clear what they saw as the alternative: the world plunged into chaos, with farmers defecting t

francis_wolke: o swell the ranks of nomadic pastoralists, and ultimately, if the breakdown continued, returning to overrun the cities and destroy the existing economic order entirely.

francis_wolke: -- Debt: the First 5,000 Years, page 216

francis_wolke: Interesting quote. Apologies for the extra \n - I don't know how they got there between copying from emacs and pasting into the irc client.

Apocalyptic: next time you know just pastebin it

benkay: why buy debt when someone's going to come along and break your tablets shortly thereafter?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]

benkay: halp i'm frying too much potato

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00087393 = 10.9241 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 8 @ 0.19376446 = 1.5501 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4648 @ 0.00021526 = 1.0005 BTC [-] {6}

francis_wolke: benkay: Fiat - you'll have more to lend out shortly thereafter?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.124 = 0.248 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 158 @ 0.00083559 = 0.132 BTC [+]

francis_wolke: Is this a reasonable theory? If not - why? https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10807 @ 0.00086971 = 9.399 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3587 @ 0.00086947 = 3.1188 BTC [-]

Apocalyptic: "Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body" lol

francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Why do you lol?

Apocalyptic: i wonder what advantage do you seen in the creator aligning with a government

Apocalyptic: will let mircea comment on that, i'm sure he will have interesting things to say

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579997 = 0.1032 BTC [+]

ThickAsThieves: the dude is nuts

francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Personally, I'm digging life, and would like to continue it for as long as possible.

francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Radical life extension is going to require some state support.

benkay: why?

benkay: more specifically, why will rle require state support?

benkay: also you're missing the part where the state isn't really its own agent but more accurately a tool of the ultra-capitalized who will be the main beneficiaries of RLE in any event.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 156 @ 0.0028231 = 0.4404 BTC [-] {6}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 4 @ 0.07501002 = 0.3 BTC [-]

benkay: buuuuut it's just vastly more likely that bitcoin will shatter all fiat states than support their continued reign.

benkay: in that frame, why would anyone smart enough to read the implications of a non-state ultimately fungible currency align themselves with a state that's doomed?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00277726 = 1.3886 BTC [-] {13}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [7C] 20 @ 0.00638999 = 0.1278 BTC [+] {2}

benkay: and RLE is a symptom of the too much money problem

pankkake: that thing is geopolitics for toddlers or something

benkay: "if the nsa cannot" oh my lols

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 250 @ 0.00275 = 0.6875 BTC [-] {3}

francis_wolke: benkay: Please, crucify me. I'm not going to get pissy or anything.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 835 @ 0.00038327 = 0.32 BTC [-] {13}

benkay: mebbe later

benkay: dog ams need romp

benkay: also your feelings don't really factor into whether or not i take you to the woodshed

francis_wolke: Glad to hear it.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 83 @ 0.003394 = 0.2817 BTC [-]

pankkake: it must be some sort of troll, where every sentence is wrong, or impossible, etc.

benkay: but hey you're a lisper so i likely won't get downright mean

benkay: ;)

pankkake: "It may be within the realm of possibility that Israel controls Bitcoin" heavy sentence with no substance, "control" bitcoin what does it mean…

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3101 @ 0.00022579 = 0.7002 BTC [+] {6}

francis_wolke: pankkake: See the links on the word 'control' and 'bitcoin'

pankkake: "too fragmented to act as a cohesive whole" it doesn't have to

pankkake: "the center for cryptography / mathematics" there's no new crypto in bitcoin

francis_wolke: benkay: Also, I fail to see how bitcoin will 'shatter' any state. Millitary power is meaningful, no matter how clever the Bitcoin protocol.

pankkake: "the USG would kill it with fire" it can't

pankkake: inflation and war go hand in hand

francis_wolke: benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?

francis_wolke: benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. They may not be required for the actual innovation. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 8 @ 0.0257 = 0.2056 BTC [-]

francis_wolke: [Note: I appear to be unable to use this irc client. I held down backspace for 30 sec, couldn't navigate to any other text and revised my message. I post, and viola - my previous message is also posted! Apologies to anyone reading this diarrhea.]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5000 @ 0.00023978 = 1.1989 BTC [+] {9}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1625 @ 0.00023988 = 0.3898 BTC [+] {2}

jurov: spooks are going to show up on their doorstep... sry if i came late and don't understand but why?

ThickAsThieves: http://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-users-awaiting-funds-survey-reveals/

francis_wolke: jurov: Government is the formalization of power. Anyone doing anything interesting with radical life extension will have spooks on their doorstep momentarily. There are a number of powerful / rich people who don't want to die.

jurov: and you think they are dying (pun intended) to get registered with govt in any way?

francis_wolke: jurov: Who? The creators of btc?

jurov: no the billionaires who will undergo life extension

jurov: for example i can't imagine our resident billionaire, mircea_popescu to rely upon government protection

jurov: in any way or shape

francis_wolke: jurov: ... MP is a billionaire?

jurov: they called him one, cuz $20k for openbsd

jurov: totally logical.

francis_wolke: jurov: I mean, yeah - but do we have actual numbers?

jurov: what was the market valuation of s.mpoe, is any mpex expert around?

jurov: !t m s.mpoe

assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00086657 / 0.00087355 / 0.00087717 (956594 shares, 835.64 BTC), 7D: 0.00084891 / 0.00086471 / 0.00087781 (7711255 shares, 6,668.04 BTC), 30D: 0.00082189 / 0.00090381 / 0.00101414 (28027503 shares, 25,331.72 BTC)

jurov: ;;calc 0.00087355*1e9

gribble: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)

jurov: it is 873550 bitcoins atm

jurov: vhich is not very far from beelion $ . but that's besiedes the poi

jurov: *point

francis_wolke: jurov: RLE is still a while off, and millitary power dosn't cease to exist b/c Bitcoin. I'm sure that neither Peter Theil, or MP have any particular love for their respective governments. But they're not stupid and recognize that if some elite is going to extend their lifespans, they may need protection.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: (author of first link in your piece speaking) you're half right. the flaw is that you are only including 'documented' ('flag, anthem, navy') powers.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00087103 = 13.5445 BTC [+] {2}

jurov: they don't need the protection. they just pwn the governemnt

francis_wolke: jurov: pwn the gov? Explain please.

asciilifeform: http://villageundertaker.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/att000022.jpg

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I'm not aware of any others, but if you've got a reading list...

jurov: for example, general secretaries of politburo

jurov: were most ofted neposed only by death

jurov: *deposed

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Also, thanks for keeping up the blog. I would have not learned about the LispM otherwise.

asciilifeform: we live in the great age of muppeteering.

jurov: and if they won't die for 100 years?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1300 @ 0.00023989 = 0.3119 BTC [+] {3}

jurov: many of people with extended lifespans will seek such a position, official or unofficial

francis_wolke: jurov: Well, yeah. And if you can't beat em...

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: if you ruled over a 'center of cryptography and mathematics,' would you wish this to be known to your enemies?

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: No.

Duffer1: where did https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258 come from?

francis_wolke: Duffer1: I transcribed it from a piece of paper I found lying on the ground.

Duffer1: fascinating

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 2 @ 0.119799 = 0.2396 BTC [+]

jurov: davout, did you forget the X.EUR again?

Duffer1: i can't speak about the historical finance part, but pretty much everything written about bitcoin itself is flat out wrong

francis_wolke: Duffer1: Please elaborate.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: and so, when a government pumps out propaganda by the truckload re: how it maintains a stable of uniquely-capable cryptologic janissaries, what can you conclude?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 482 @ 0.0002399 = 0.1156 BTC [+]

jurov: that mp is the governemnt?

jurov: he maintains some such stables

Duffer1: start with the first assertion "..a handful of parties control bitcoin.." miners control bitcoin, anyone can edit/audit the code, but it's miners that vote with their hashpower to run updated versions or not

asciilifeform: Duffer1: the assumption that we know anything whatsoever regarding the distribution of the bulk of mining power is mistaken.

MisterE: handful is misleading

asciilifeform: i can make 1TH look like 1,000 1GH lamers. and so can you, and so can any spammer.

MisterE: hmm

Duffer1: a fair point

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.074 = 0.148 BTC [+]

MisterE: but why? I assume most miners no reason to deceive?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083559 = 0.2507 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: MisterE: if you were the hypothetical king of the miners, you have every incentive to engineer a ruse like this.

MisterE: hmm yea if I had the most hashpower

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 32 @ 0.0055 = 0.176 BTC

Duffer1: the article attributes control of bitcoin to those hoarding the most, i was pointing out the power is in the hash

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1360 @ 0.00086947 = 1.1825 BTC [-]

asciilifeform: describing 'power' as a scalar is naive. there is power to destroy, for example, which is arguably held by whoever controls the satoshi mega-hoard

asciilifeform: and then there's the power to silently '51%'

asciilifeform: which may or may not be held by anyone

asciilifeform: and then there's the power to crunch the blockchain and squeeze out whatever truth is contained therein

asciilifeform: all three of these are quite distinct things.

Duffer1: but what controls bitcoin?

asciilifeform: once again 'controls' is a meaningless question

asciilifeform: what controls your index finger?

Apocalyptic: the associated muscles

Duffer1: there are innumerable external factors, but for purposes dissecting the statement: "Given that a handful of parties control Bitcoin..." is the answer not miners? (or the mining network)

asciilifeform: i.e. the six or so global telecoms with de-facto control over the net could switch it off like a lamp. (provisions against this scenario are quite feasible, but no one has cared to consider much less make them.)

asciilifeform: everyone seems intent on inventing the parachute after being thrown, rather than before.

asciilifeform: a more interesting question for 'political' aficionados could be 'who has the power to kill while making the death look like bad luck?' and 'who can silently bend the system towards some desired end'

asciilifeform: 'who controls', on the other hand, is uselessly vague.

asciilifeform: that is, do the fellows with the 'nuclear briefcases' - 'control bitcoin'? arguably they do...

asciilifeform: in the same sense that they 'control' the weather.

asciilifeform: you 'control' your car. but it will never fly, or sail.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I have not drawn my conclusions r.e. the janissaries based on propaganda. At least, I'm not aware of doing so.

mircea_popescu: o look, new names.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: dexX7 not sure how accurate that sort of stuff is.

mircea_popescu: 2.47% of total Mpex.co traffic in last 3 months is social < that part was lulzy.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: possibly the only organized undertaking modern rulers are any good at is: presenting elaborately misleading pictures of their capabilities.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you realise the entire breaking tablets thing is strictly a function of man's early monkey-like state and has no practical importance today. do you ?

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I don't.

mircea_popescu: yes well. back in those days a one year interval was far outside the mental abilities of even "specialist" "bankers" to plan.

mircea_popescu: society today relies on much more intelligent people.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic point that stands, supposing there is one, is that caging monkeys has a certain cost

mircea_popescu: the fact that the bulk of the live humans are about as stupid today as in 3000 bc has little bearing

asciilifeform: so the ROI on containing them isn't always positive.

mircea_popescu: they still wish and expect tvs running water and generally to be able to play around on the intenret.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: If the USD went to 0 btc - it would be a 'breaking of the tablets', regardless.

mircea_popescu: this requires an economy built by people who see more than a year into the future.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke it would be the breaking of SOME tablets

mircea_popescu: ie, the stupid ones.

mircea_popescu: this happens all the time. there are 1000s of bankruptcy courts all over the world hearing millions of cases as we speak.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Exactly. The point is that the middle and lower class keep working.

mircea_popescu: sure.

mircea_popescu: but this is in no way time based, and in no way a festival.

francis_wolke: Time-based? Festival?

mircea_popescu: yes. our discussion started with me asking if you realise the thing you quote has more to do with the mokeys involved than with anything of import today.

asciilifeform: modern monkey-handlers have not entirely abandoned the idea of 'populistic' gifts to their charges via mass expropriation (whether via debt forgiveness, abruptly nationalized industry, or whichever other tricks)

francis_wolke: exactly.

francis_wolke: And how do you get rid of $18 trillion in debt? And school loans. And housing loans. etc.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect the problem is more like this : if i give you a debt package, there will be a cost to evaluate its value. if that cost likely exceeds its value, you may opt to just throw the whole thing away.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you don't. ideally, you DONT MAKE THEM

mircea_popescu: not everybody needs a college degree, even if they're white, and even if their parents have "expectations".

asciilifeform: modern 'debt politics' is simply a maintenance of the historic norm (most humans being formally enslaved to someone or other) by other means.

francis_wolke: Agreed.

asciilifeform: 'kinder/gentler/paper' but otherwise effective.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: have you read this: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm

mircea_popescu: or moreover it's simply THE maintenance of the historic norm, independent of human agency, which is being mentally digested in ways consecvent with the current social text.

asciilifeform: and there is never any question of turning them loose (that'd be the end of organized civilization as a concept) but change of masters.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's never any question of turning them loose because they just won't leave.

mircea_popescu: turning "them" lose is like turning the cockroaches in your kitchen "loose", admitting you live in ny.

asciilifeform: correct. it's rather like the 'animal activist' folks turning the mice loose.

mircea_popescu: they're loose already.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: A while back you mentioned that the rulers of today are only good at misleading the public. I agree that the *visible* rulers are good at this - but can't imagine someone like Ben Bernanke caring so little about his future that the stupid are allowed to rule.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 179 @ 0.00293297 = 0.525 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: the visible muppets aren't good at much of anything

mircea_popescu: so why does what you can and can't imagine matter ?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 20 @ 0.19376446 = 3.8753 BTC [+]

Duffer1: I'd say given the state of affairs worldwide the non-visible muppets aren't good at much either

mircea_popescu: Duffer1 you know you'll have to first define some criteria.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Because my imagination has some bearing on reality - however tenuous.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke can you show this to me ?

asciilifeform: Duffer1: this conclusion does not necessarily follow.

Duffer1: well what does it matter visible or nonvisible if the net result is crap all around for everyone?

mircea_popescu: again, crap by which stick ?

asciilifeform: re: imagination: gedankenexperiment time. let's imagine that i imagine there's a cleaner way to solve sha(Y)=X than brute force. i pursue this line of inquiry, and the imagined turns into the actual.

asciilifeform: in this scenario, imagination can indeed have an impact on reality...

Duffer1: worldwide asinine political regimes, religions, violence, ignorance

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on your circumstance, yes. on the reality of the matter, none.

francis_wolke: MP: I have met some people in so-called 1%. I know what they're like, and what their parents are like. Many of them don't think - but some do. Some actually care that civilization will be around for their decedents to enjoy.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you know this hardly is showing, do you ?

Duffer1: my experience is obviously subject (as was my initial statement) but i don't see anyone trying to reverse these trends

francis_wolke: Though I have no experience with these matters, I can 'imagine' that they make certain sorts of donations etc.

francis_wolke: Or say that I didn't actually know any of these people.

asciilifeform: Duffer1: one can easily picture a set of aims that these things, which you aren't particularly fond of, help to advance.

asciilifeform: 'it's not a bug, it's a feature' (TM)

Duffer1: hehe

mircea_popescu: listen, while i agree with the reverse (ie, indeed reality iwll have some bearing, no matter how tenuous, on your imagination), the reverse is completely baseless.

Namworld: The requirements to be included in the 1% are low...

francis_wolke: Okay, cool.

asciilifeform: in what magic book is it written that '1%' (of what...) is a useful proxy for 'those who rule'

mircea_popescu: and this is so for very good reasons long explored in the history of thought.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fun anecdote : romania's ruler for the 90s decade owner... a house.

asciilifeform: stalin. owned: a coat.

mircea_popescu: "sarac dar cinstit" = poor but honest, ion iliescu, the ex dictator-s golden boy.

mircea_popescu: indeed, same model.

asciilifeform: this goes back to the 'what is control' question from earlier, as well as MP's recent discussion of 'owning a cow'

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally : http://trilema.com/2014/democracy-and-finance-dont-mix-the-math-involved/#comment-98112 we're having a little dispute there.

Duffer1: i missed that one

asciilifeform: if the only things you can 'own' are those that fit in your coffin, then: stalin owned only an overcoat. and a few coin in his pocket.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Control, with respect to bitcoin, would be whoever has their hand on the 'kill switch'. Assuming that the guy with a nuke is stable.

mircea_popescu: there is no nor can there ever be such a "kill switch".

mircea_popescu: *that* is a figment of your imagination, like the tits on the goddesses.

asciilifeform: there is a 'fuck things up quite a bit' switch, possibly. (as described in my old piece)

mircea_popescu: surely.

asciilifeform: whether this amounts to 'kill' is debatable.

mircea_popescu: i do that to women occasionally. they generally love it.

asciilifeform: and depends as much on herd psychology as anything else.

asciilifeform: it's rather like, say you were permitted to squeeze off one shot from a small arm at your enemy. does this amount to 'kill switch'? what if you miss? what if he's got a tough hide.

francis_wolke: Agreed.

francis_wolke: Control, with respect to society, is an emergent phenomenon. That being said, the Manhattan Project happened.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.077 = 0.231 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke http://t.co/pwAThtM4MP << you know that's broken right ?

francis_wolke: In secret no less.

asciilifeform: i tend to agree with MP and others who conclude that we no longer live in a world where manhattan projects happen.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: It's not broken for me. http://francis-.github.io/

asciilifeform: the necessary human material is no longer readily available. just as the metals with which the SR-71 was built no longer are.

mircea_popescu: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://francis-.github.io/

mircea_popescu: stubborn cat is he.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: If you have a reading list to support this claim, I'd be happy to read it.

asciilifeform: it loads from here

asciilifeform: mebbe it's cached at ft. meade.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Must have been cached. (Though you already knew that) my bad.

mircea_popescu: lol interesting

pankkake: francis-.github.io resolves, but firefox does not like the name

mircea_popescu: im pretty sure -. is nonrfc

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: which claim ?

francis_wolke: There is nothing interesting there anyway. Just an 'about' with one sentence.

pankkake: nor does lynx

pankkake: but chrome does

mircea_popescu: see, this is why we need standards.

mircea_popescu: so we can all agree on things.

mircea_popescu: like for instance now, we can agree that wtf.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: That we're living in a world without Manhattan projects.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Actually, I'd be interested in a reading list irrespective of that.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now you're screwed, it looks like you'll have to write that article

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Same goes for you.

mircea_popescu: o no, i'm eight million words ahead in this game.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: i doubt that i, personally, could prove this claim to your satisfaction.

asciilifeform: it is merely a strong conjecture.

asciilifeform: proving non-existence is generally non-trivial.

asciilifeform: except in the purely mathematical scenarios.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke let's consider a simpler alternative. obama fdr and lincoln all broke the law, grossly. in all cases the courts duly signed off on this.

mircea_popescu: in the first case, the guy was able to cause civil war.

mircea_popescu: in the second case, the guy was able to cause massive resource redistribution

mircea_popescu: in the third case, the guy was able to not cause anything outside of measurement error.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: you want a good read: "The Art of Not Being Governed." (James C. Scott)

asciilifeform: (book-length, high-quality treatise on the exact recipes whereby humans are corralled and milked)

mircea_popescu: the reason of course being ideological convergence, which happens because of the law of large numbers :

mircea_popescu: when you have simple ideologies, you have much easier coherence. thus activity with greatly leveraged effect.

mircea_popescu: as things progress the complexity of ideology grows and so grows the number of boxes in which we put balls. soon enough you have no box with over X balls.

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Thanks.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: as for the absence of 'modern manhattan project', let's attack that one head-on

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I fail to see how this leads to a USG without Manhattan projects.

asciilifeform: for instance, you appear to consider seriously the possibility of 'radical life extension tech' being presently in covert use.

asciilifeform: do i understand correctly?

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: No

mircea_popescu: maybe we don't mean the same thing by manhattan projects. what's your definition ?

francis_wolke: err. sorry

francis_wolke: asciilifeform:no

francis_wolke: A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG.

mircea_popescu: right.

mircea_popescu: the limits on the largeness of scale and importance are placed by said law of large numbers.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: further reading. GRU report based on U.S. silver purchases in 1941-43.

mircea_popescu: when the options are a1, a2, you will out of a population of 100mn find 50 people able to keep secret X

asciilifeform: (manhattan project was no secret to GRU.)

mircea_popescu: when the options are a1, an you will not find out of a population of k, k <n, a single person capable of keeping secret X.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12489 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: which is why the fsb does not have documents leaked, in spite of it sucking,

mircea_popescu: whereas the nsa is leaked yearly, in spite of supposedly being better.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Okay?

mircea_popescu: russia is less "civilised" which means more convergent ideologically.

asciilifeform: it is very easy to draw mistaken conclusions from the fact that the 'man on the street' was entirely unaware of manhattan p. (or 'operation gladio', for a more recent example)

asciilifeform: but it does not follow that either was a 'perfect secret'

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought we were strictly discussing secrets as "man in the street" affairs.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: keeping a secret from the man on the street is trivial. often, you could run his nose in it and it will stay 'secret.'

mircea_popescu: well not THAT man in the street. not the mobile vulgus, the beasts of the field, strictly interesting for their flesh, the cockroaches in your fabled ny apartment.

asciilifeform: betcha if you plucked the quasi-mythical Pill Against RSA from its Indiana Jones subterranean vault, perhaps six people alive would understand what they are looking at were it shown to them.

mircea_popescu: the actual man, ie, the middle class man.

mircea_popescu: a "reasonably intelligent observer"

asciilifeform: phun phact: many of the still-officially-secret docs from manhattan proj. are available in dead-tree print - in russian, naturally.

asciilifeform: any moron can waltz into a russian academic bookstore and buy all he can eat.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and legal to import into the us in your luggage, but then again illegal to export

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of which, are PGP tattoos still in fashion, i wonder.

asciilifeform: 'i am a controlled munition.'

mircea_popescu: lol

mircea_popescu: they never got far, i imagine cause they're so hard to make and unwieldy to weart

asciilifeform: if i recall it was the perl version

asciilifeform: <100 chars. or so.

mircea_popescu: your average tattoo "artist" doesn't do so well with letters.

asciilifeform: haha that'd be hilarious in the pgp case

asciilifeform: idiot hipster asks for pgp tattoo, gets rot-13.

mircea_popescu: lol

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: To clarify, I'd imagine that anyone with enough money / power would be interested in the possiblity of radical life extension (Peter Theil, MP, Satoshi) if / when the tech is there. As such, if I were smart enough to create btc, I'd certainly team up with the most powerful country, so that if the tech does get 'there', I'll be ready.

mircea_popescu: why do you think so ? i wouldn't personally be interested in such.

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: phun phact. my first paying job was 'activate somatic telomerase.' project croaked from utter lack of the necessary depth of understanding.

francis_wolke: Phun phact indeed.

asciilifeform: (and, not simply mine)

mircea_popescu: i mean marginally, like i'm interested in whatever new chick takes her top off, but otherwise...

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: You wouldn't opt for another 400 years?

mircea_popescu: that aside, i do believe we'll probably be the first immortal generation,

mircea_popescu: and probably rue the day.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke doing what ?

pankkake: doing girls 300 years younger

mircea_popescu: srsly now.

francis_wolke: ha.

mircea_popescu: i first retired aged 24. i came back because i got bored out of my mind.

mircea_popescu: i got lucky, cause btc came around, but how many cycles do you think i can take ?

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I don't know you well enough to say.

mircea_popescu: well nobody does, but still.

asciilifeform: immortality is a tricky beast - biology aside! the life expectancy of a daily wash. d.c. beltway driver is maybe 200 years.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how'd you figure that ?!

asciilifeform: accident stats. a debatable figure, could be off by as much as 10x.

mircea_popescu: lmao ok

asciilifeform: (naturally, gedankenexperiment assumes an eternal and unchanging beltway, etc.)

mircea_popescu: right.

benkay: http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=26001ed

mircea_popescu: beltway, bellyway, errything.

ozbot: dishes

asciilifeform: could just as well calculate the life of a somali pirate, or oil driller.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the lifespan of a redditard ?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [+]

benkay: mircea_popescu: on the subject of the feed you've been yammering at me about

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: depends! is he in an oubliette where he belongs?

asciilifeform: in Butugichag?

mircea_popescu: benkay tiikoni and tis. you tease you. what happened to cunny and tits ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in his mom's basementichag

francis_wolke: Still not sure why you both think we live in a world devoid of Manhattan projects btw.

asciilifeform: (lifespan of a strong man in B. was reportedly six months.)

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke but you never engaged my argument at all.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, the romans used the salt mines (in transylvania) to much the same effect.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: You simply don't have to tell all that many people when you're creating a new currency - and even if you do, who is going to listen?

mircea_popescu: "go fight in the arena for glory or rot in turda salt mine boi"

asciilifeform: 'glorious secret undertakings like Manhattan p. carry on' is quite similar of a hypothesis to 'god exists'

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke but a new currency isn't a manhattan project.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Ah - but that's what I'm getting at - I think it was.

mircea_popescu: creating a new currency is like fucking an altar boy. nobody needs to know anything.

benkay: francis_wolke: have you read the source?

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: you believe that it was? or believe that it must have been.

mircea_popescu: a manhattan project is like escavating a tunnel under the nunnery.

asciilifeform: which is it

mircea_popescu: plenty of people need to know

francis_wolke: benkay: I have not.

benkay: sophisticated engineering project it ain't

mircea_popescu: ^

asciilifeform: i'm perfectly willing to listen to evidence that 'was'. but 'must have been' is absurd.

benkay: not broken, for sure

benkay: crypto minds deployed against it, for sure

benkay: rigorous engineering?

benkay: notrly.

mircea_popescu: if every great painting in history is a manhattan project then venice and the low countries own the us in manhattanness, srsly.

mircea_popescu: who knew.

benkay: venice et al pwn the us anyways

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I don't believe anything. I'm asking here because you all know more than I.

mircea_popescu: benkay diff discussion :)

pankkake: bitcoin, the first released version, was certainly written by one lone guy

mircea_popescu: <francis_wolke> A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG. << how does bitcoin meet any of your criteria ?

asciilifeform: francis_wolke: suggested exercise: invent something fundamental.

mircea_popescu: it's neither large scale nor important in that context.

asciilifeform: then you will know what it feels like to be a perfect 'conspiracy' of one man.

mircea_popescu: pankkake with a tenuous grasp of c practice.

asciilifeform: you'll have thoughts like 'wtf. how is it that only one man can know something'

dexX7: mircea_popesu: yea, i guess it's not very accurate, but interesting to see an estimate

francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Fair enough.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i loved dame dench. "Be careful with my name, or you may wear it out!"

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: See my gist. However, I think that it's clear I need to read the Bitcoin sources and more history. The 'reasoning' in said gist may not correspond to reality.

mircea_popescu: in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself, in which vaguely one can recognise the marks left by the spit of whoever long ago, in the manner new spits mix today because of the presence of that old saliva of yore,

mircea_popescu: the notion of fresh produce is indeed imponderable.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke actual link ?

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 185 @ 0.002941 = 0.5441 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: fucking teleomeres.

mjr_: whats up all

mircea_popescu: half the time when i select something a final char is omitted

benkay: yo mjr_ what's up

mircea_popescu: " Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body." << this is a weak assumption.

mjr_: very weak mircea_popescu

benkay: mircea_popescu: i pointed this out already.

mjr_: benkay: whats up

mircea_popescu: ello mjr_

mjr_: i just got the coolest new domain

mjr_: i'm quite proud of it

mircea_popescu: benkay so that makes 2 :)

benkay: hackin migration scripts, watching the babe do dishes in heels

mjr_: longtermcryptomanagement.com, longtermcryptomgmt.com and ltcmgmt.com

mircea_popescu: "A group of people associated with multiple world powers." << no. actual internationalisation happened in 2013, was announced on trilema.

benkay: well, sweeping now but general domesticity. what's the domain?

mjr_: restarting a brand new LTCM

benkay: litecoin management lol mjr_

mjr_: no no

mjr_: long term crypto

benkay: that's what i read

benkay: nope

benkay: you're in the litecoin biz nao

mircea_popescu: mjr_ they're not that great.

mjr_: hahaha

mjr_: its mostly a joke mircea_popescu

mircea_popescu: o o

benkay: i think the ltcmgmt is great!

mjr_: anyone who knows LTCM will find it prety funny

mircea_popescu: "and Israel" << wtf ?! how do you reason francis_wolke ?

mircea_popescu: "and the remaining states are all allies of the US" < ahaha what!

mjr_: but i plan on using it as a private consulting company for btcshares.com

mjr_: did you guys see that guy from btc shop?

mircea_popescu: i guess required reading http://trilema.com/2014/most-wrong-and-absolutely-wrongest/

benkay: if you'd read the gist it woulda saved so much time mircea_popescu

benkay: you could've jumped straight to the mockery!

mjr_: went public on the pink sheets...as i was recommending bitcoin companies do a year ago

mjr_: ^^

mircea_popescu: "it's disposal" that's not how you spell the possesive.

mircea_popescu: "neigh-impossible" << what is this, cockney ?!

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who's this guy ?

mjr_: hahaha

mjr_: i've missed chatting with you guys

mircea_popescu: "Even if the initial miners in the "Satoshi Gang" were not initially part of the USG - they would be hunted down and forced to turn over their Bitcoin at gunpoint." oh for the love of christ.

mjr_: do you have the link handy for the romania trip?

mircea_popescu: mjr_ the conference you mea n?

mjr_: yes

benkay: mjr_: pm

mjr_: i am starting to try and make plans

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/the-conference-second-edition/

ozbot: The conference, second edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

mjr_: thanks so much

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke your git is nonsense.

mircea_popescu: and somewhat related :

mircea_popescu: Dolchstoßlegende is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals" (German: Novemberverbrecher).

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I read the logs. My wifi died.

mircea_popescu: now, can we transpose the manhattan argument in terms of novemberverbrecher argument ?

mircea_popescu: ie, could we say the same things we say of our current fashion (ie, large scale tech project) about yesteryear's fashion ?

mircea_popescu: (ie, large scale political project)

francis_wolke: I'm not following.

mircea_popescu: the only difference being that in the 2000s humanity is fed by technology, whereas in 1900 it was fed by politics, which meant, of course, deploying the force of arms to acquire wealth.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who's this guy << no idea. seems to read my site at least occasionally.

mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you'll ahve to put that in the form of a question.

francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: One sec, reading your blogpost.

mircea_popescu: no rush really, #bitcoin-assets is eternal

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeps giving us these immortality pills, we'll be here forever.

ThickAsThieves: someone likes the BitBet layout: https://fairlay.com/

mircea_popescu: ahahaha fair lay!

mircea_popescu: speaking of lays : benkay take the girls pic, post it, have her come by i'll give her a bitcoin so she can build her independent wealth.

mircea_popescu: (in heels, doing housework, obviously)

benkay: that was her!

benkay: she's already on payroll over here.

benkay: although if you foot the bill for travel to romania you can have a go at talking her into your dungeon.

pankkake: https://fairlay.com/bet/registered/new/ethereum-talk-10-000-views-on-youtube/ how can this be approved :/

ozbot: Bet on: Ethereum talk > 10.000 views on YouTube

pankkake: fake views are so cheap

mircea_popescu: benkay i normally talk girls out of it not into it.

mircea_popescu: and what "that" ?

mircea_popescu: pankkake it's a fair lay lmao

benkay: the tikooni

mjr_: mircea_popescu:

mjr_: it is prevailing market rates of 1760?

mircea_popescu: o srsly ? /me actually clicks the link then

mjr_: has that been edited? i seem to remember 10 bitcoin price, not sure if i am remembering wrong

benkay: psh

mircea_popescu: mjr_ sorry ?

mircea_popescu: benkay you know i have the exact bowl ?

mircea_popescu: fucking chinese.

benkay: mircea_popescu: that's a strainer.

mircea_popescu: i see no holes ?!

mjr_: mircea_popescu: i thought the fee was 10 bitcoins for VIP, not that I am complaining, I just haven't looked in a while

mjr_: and i was under that impression

mircea_popescu: nah it always was X at time of payment,

benkay: it's a low-rez jpeg and they're small!

mjr_: ah cool

mircea_popescu: happened to be 10 btc at that time

mircea_popescu: wow. ok nm then!

mjr_: i am planning on going, and will get the payment in b4 the ides of march

mjr_: have to check my schedule real quick but it should be fine

mircea_popescu: i was going to go "oh, the blessings of romanian living, i just drained a bottle of tuica out of my barrel in the cellar now i have nicely cold tuica", but i guess i should pass.

benkay: not moving to argentina, i gather.

mircea_popescu: who knows these things.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let me ask you this : are you gathering lots of information about the early days of bitcoin by extensively watching the altcoin chain, tracking txns etc ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on and off.

mircea_popescu: gedankenexperiment : you are the usg.

asciilifeform: not terribly actively in recent times, got, well, other things on me plate.

mircea_popescu: exactly.

mircea_popescu: could you have been a one man conspiracy to take it all over ? certainly. did you ? no. why not ? well...because of soft constraints.

mircea_popescu: this is what they are, this is how they work.

asciilifeform: everyone likes to imagine that there lives a hero.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25888 @ 0.00087307 = 22.602 BTC [+] {5}

mircea_popescu: sure. and i see no problem with that, as you know, conversation.

mircea_popescu: reality however...

mircea_popescu: you gotta actually do it for it to be done. coulding have done it ain't military grade.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21612 @ 0.00087425 = 18.8943 BTC [+] {4}

mircea_popescu: epic shit this, i've already derived more value from it than doge ever was worth.

mircea_popescu: benkay anyway, nice girl, happy times!

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12999999 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 111 @ 0.002941 = 0.3265 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07366666 = 0.221 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.124 = 0.372 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06899999 = 0.276 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00294498 = 0.106 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8228 @ 0.0008746 = 7.1962 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

benkay: mmm yes.

benkay: happy times.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4677 @ 0.00087501 = 4.0924 BTC [+]

deanclkclk: anyone around?

deanclkclk: are there any alternatives to okpay which accepts fiat on behalf of exchanges?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8064 @ 0.00087015 = 7.0169 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk not really.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2886 @ 0.00086943 = 2.5092 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: exchanges currently seem to have a lot of problems, but if you trust any one you are best served by asking them what they can process

deanclkclk: thing is..I'm creating an exchange i'm kinda limited to okpay to do this

Duffer1: ;;gpg info deanclkclk

gribble: No such user registered.

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk perhaps you've not thought this though that much.

deanclkclk: what do you mean?

deanclkclk: especially when you get an account..you also get a bank account

deanclkclk: well someone else on my team is looking into it but, it something that's been nagging my conscious

deanclkclk: conscience *

Duffer1: btc/usd exchange?

deanclkclk: yes Duffer1

deanclkclk: and btc/eur

deanclkclk: ltc also alsong with btc/ltc

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk i guess as mpoe-pr would say, see here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124441.0

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12936 @ 0.00086847 = 11.2345 BTC [-] {3}

deanclkclk: thx for that mircea_popescu

mircea_popescu: people with millions of dollars in backing failed at what you propose.

deanclkclk: but, what's WOT by the way?

mircea_popescu: it's not something to be started to fill an idle hour in the afternoon, like wittling.

deanclkclk: I know mircea_popescu

mircea_popescu: http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php this thing

Duffer1: Web Of Trust

deanclkclk: I have a value added propition mircea_popescu nad what I'm bring is like high frequency trading

deanclkclk: buyer wants more ..seller wants less...the trading will be automated where we try to get the best price for both buyer and seller

deanclkclk: understand?

deanclkclk: and in some cases..they can get more dollars ..as in the case of the trader and more btc in the case of the buyer

benkay: nope. do not understand. i must be idiots.

mircea_popescu: do you by any chance misrepresent "hft" to mean "a simulacra of amazon's autobid function" ?

Duffer1: you propose to allow buy/sell a price different than quoted?

deanclkclk: the buyer puts his max bid and the seller puts there minium ask price

deanclkclk: the algorithm goes through the list and find the best price for both buyer and seller Duffer1

benkay: YOU GUYS

benkay: HE'S INVENTED THE ORDER BOOK

Duffer1: how is that different than a regular order book

deanclkclk: so the seller might get more fiat and the buyer might get more btc

mircea_popescu: it presumably doesn't display actual values.

deanclkclk: it does

deanclkclk: it will show what actually traded

Duffer1: dark pool, but not dark

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk you may not like to hear this, but nevertheless it's a fact : you're really not able to do this. for your own sake do it for something light, like a play crypto.

mircea_popescu: do doge/alt/ltc/we.

deanclkclk: why?

mircea_popescu: because you're too stupid.

deanclkclk: why do you suggest that?

deanclkclk: why am I stupid?

mircea_popescu: well there are many fundamental points you're unable to consider.

deanclkclk: like what?

Duffer1: when you lose everyone's money for them it will hurt more than when you lose everyone's memecoin

deanclkclk: what's the main one?

mircea_popescu: i would imagine it's a combination of youth and whatever else.

deanclkclk: how am I loosing people's money when I said ..the objective is for folks to get more

benkay: well it's a zero sum game, homie

deanclkclk: a trade...we find the lease expensive ask and the highest bid and trade

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+]

deanclkclk: are u that fucking stupid?

benkay: so this is not an open problem

Duffer1: you clearly don't understand enough of what's involved to be put yourself in a position of responsibility for other's money

benkay: https://openex.pw/

Duffer1: other's fortunes

deanclkclk: as oppose just stating random things..state in what instance I'm a "too fucking stupid"

deanclkclk: what area?

Duffer1: ok what's your area of expertise?

benkay: deanclkclk: matching the lowest ask and highest bid is the baseline for an exchange.

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk don't take it personally. i have no particular interest in the matter.

deanclkclk: I made 2 or 3 statements and all of a sudden...I'm too fucking stupid

benkay: it is completely unspecial.

mircea_popescu: well yes. we can see what statements you make and compare.

deanclkclk: benkay: have u traded on BTC-e?

benkay: deanclkclk: why does this matter?

deanclkclk: basically I just get the quantity I ask for

deanclkclk: well I bid

deanclkclk: I don't get more

mircea_popescu: ><

mircea_popescu: why would you want to get more ?

benkay: deanclkclk: you're unfortunately trading on exchanges run by derpy web developers that don't match orders like professionals, and so you come to the conclusion that order matching is a) a hard problem and b) something you're qualified to handle.

Duffer1: how could you get more?

deanclkclk: why wouldn't anyone want to get more BTC if the purpose of the site is to find the least ask trade

pankkake: as far as I know btc-e does things properly

benkay: furthermore, the problem you're trying to solve is not actually a problem. it's a flaw in your perceptions of trading.

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk because people generally want to get what they want to get.

deanclkclk: lol

deanclkclk: ok

Duffer1: noooo not ok

deanclkclk: u people must be programmers

mircea_popescu: actually, no.

Duffer1: now you're going to walk off and do it anyways, stay and talk

mircea_popescu: the only programmer here is benkay and we only keep him around cause his gf.

benkay: oi

mircea_popescu: lol

deanclkclk: people want to get what they ask for? that doesn't make any business sense

deanclkclk: people generally likes to leverage

mircea_popescu: so when i order a wire of X dollars,

deanclkclk: so I don't know what planet u people are from

mircea_popescu: the recipient should get X+k dollars ?

deanclkclk: yes

deanclkclk: that ask

mircea_popescu: well, i suppose it must be a different planet.

deanclkclk: the bid...might get more say BTC

Duffer1: dat variety speak

Duffer1: much learning for you young padawan

pankkake: but if you want more, just ask for more. your ask might not get fully filled, so? that was the price you wanted

deanclkclk: it's not guaranteed but, hte bare minimum they get what the actually bid and ask were

mircea_popescu: maybe there could be a coin dedicated to this concept.

mircea_popescu: each transfer yields more coins i nthe recipient address than were sent

mircea_popescu: this defo beats bernankoin

pankkake: I mean bid, lol

deanclkclk: guy..do you know how market works...prices change on the fly

mircea_popescu: pankkake he just outsmarted your BNK!

deanclkclk: and trades can happen ever second

pankkake: *BEK

mircea_popescu: o my bad

deanclkclk: so if I put this bid and the price sinks...I'm would be a happy camper

Duffer1: a futures exchange?

pankkake: you'd have to know the future indeed

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk so you want to specify orders by the other part of the pair, basically ?

mircea_popescu: sells specified in dollars, buys in bitcoin for the btc/usd pair ?

deanclkclk: mircea_popescu: again..attention

deanclkclk: by the bare minimum...the traders would get what they ask for....X dollars for the seller and X BTC for the buyer

deanclkclk: but, there could be a case where Seller and Buyer gets more depending on the trade

deanclkclk: the purpose is to find the highest bid and the lowest ask

pankkake: you should write a proof of concept (without any actual monies involved)

deanclkclk: I'm already doing that

mircea_popescu: hence my advice to use play coins.

pankkake: well then perhaps I'll understand your proposal

deanclkclk: so for instance...I put 100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for 95

mircea_popescu: if your idea blows up you won't be hung out to dry.

benkay: no, you will.

deanclkclk: I save $5 dollars and I can use that 5 dollars to get an additional satososhi

mircea_popescu: ok, but not with a spiked stake in your anus

deanclkclk: it's small but it's incremental :)

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.07000003 = 0.63 BTC [-] {4}

mircea_popescu: o look, btctalk is down

pankkake: it's not. they banned you?

deanclkclk: now tell me...am I stupid?

Namworld: How do you find such lower ask/higher bid so buyer/seller gets more? All bids/asks are all already there when someone place an order.

deanclkclk: I'm already using testnet folks

pankkake: if I put 100 for 1 BTC and there is an ask at 95, I'm already getting that bitcoin at 95

mircea_popescu: http://nypost.com/2013/10/11/teen-who-faced-sex-offenders-list-for-streaking-commits-suicide/

ozbot: Teen kills self after streaking backlash | New York Post

mircea_popescu: key words " alabama law"

pankkake: almost everywhere

Jere_Jones: You plan on doing this *on* the blockchain?

deanclkclk: all exchanges? pankkake ?

Namworld: Yes

deanclkclk: so what happens with the $5 dollars

mircea_popescu: pankkake nm back up

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.13199988 = 0.66 BTC [+] {3}

Namworld: You don't spend that $5 because there is a ask lower than 100 per BTC at 95.

pankkake: you end up with $5 and 1 BTC

Namworld: That's what happen. You get 5 dollar + a BTC

deanclkclk: so why not find another satoshi for the 5 bucks?

Duffer1: or if you do a market buy, the 5$ buys from the next order inline

deanclkclk: well that's not my experience with other exchanges folks...sorry

deanclkclk: maybe I was missing something

Namworld: You CAN select to buy 100 dollar of BTC. The exchange already finds the lowest asks and gets as much BTC as possible.

Namworld: You can select amount to buy/sell in dollar or in BTC already.

Namworld: You already get the best ask/bid.

Jere_Jones: market order vs limit order

Namworld: That's how all exchanges already work.

ThickAsThieves: time to ditch OpenEx: https://www.x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc

ThickAsThieves: courtesy of Apocalyptic

pankkake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_(exchange) basically

ozbot: Order (exchange) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

pankkake: omgizz! thanks Apocalyptic

mircea_popescu: curious if BingoBoingo will support it

Apocalyptic: hope you guys like this order matching better heh

pankkake: the current slowness of ATC blocks will make arbitrage annoying

BingoBoingo: Sure, will take a few hours to move out. That's usually the lag on withdrawals.

Apocalyptic: I heard a diff retarget is in 33 blocks

mircea_popescu: funny thing is, the r3wt guy will never know what exactly he missed by not being part of things.

pankkake: try 1000 more blocks

ThickAsThieves: really?

ThickAsThieves: fuuu

mircea_popescu: pankkake how long are blocks atm, 10 mns ?

ThickAsThieves: like 50m

pankkake: yeah I think it's 2016 blocks, of 512 sec blocks

deanclkclk: can you cancel a trade that's partially filled on these exchanges?

Namworld: Yes

Duffer1: every exchange i've used ya

deanclkclk: which ones?

pankkake: all of them

deanclkclk: lie

Namworld: MtGox, Bitstamp, BTC-E, you name it.

ThickAsThieves: dean we dont need more exchanges

Namworld: I don't know of one that doesn't.

Duffer1: campbx/gox/btce/mcxnow

pankkake: look, if you don't allow cancelling, you're going to end up with nonsense very quickly

Duffer1: note that half of those are dead, and the others are questionably/likely scams

deanclkclk: I've used btc-e and no way in hell I could cancel a trade that was partially filled

Apocalyptic: deanclkclk, i could

Duffer1: it's highlighted in yellow in the order book and all open positions are visible below the order book, scroll down

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves at the rate we're going we soon might. you know the joke with the cadet and his horse?

Duffer1: yellow or grey i forget, it's been a while, when you mouse over it you can cancel

deanclkclk: so must of u guys are traders?

BingoBoingo: deanclkclk: Not at all

Duffer1: hell no lol

mircea_popescu: we are the secret iluminati club of bitcoin.

mircea_popescu: nice to meet you.

deanclkclk: so if you are not traders or programmers...what the fuck is that profession?

pankkake: I'm an eternal curious finance noob

Duffer1: I'm a clinger that lost it all and hangs around for I don't know why

Namworld: Some in here are traders I suppose. Other are business owners.

Namworld: Others are just watching for info/news.

Duffer1: the Haters Club, now with Bitcoin

ThickAsThieves: i'm a serial journeyman

mircea_popescu: you're all jews.

pankkake: if only being a hater was a job

Duffer1: seriously

Duffer1: well mpoe-pr, so jealous :(

mircea_popescu: i think most people go into the press trying to make a job out of it.

mircea_popescu: ahahaha right-o!

deanclkclk: so for traders here..what do you guys would want out of an exchange that your currently not getting?

Duffer1: theft insurance

deadweasel: liquidity

Namworld: Which I don't think is feasible to begin with.

deanclkclk: anything is possible

Namworld: (insurance)

Namworld: Anything?

deanclkclk: meaning if you loose 100% of your BTC..u get back say full or partial?

benkay: i want bad trade insurance

benkay: like

benkay: i bought atc at 150

kakobrekla: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26210053

benkay: it's now 100

benkay: i want that 50 sat back plz

mircea_popescu: actual credibility.

mircea_popescu: would be nice but it's too onerous to hope for.

Duffer1: nono if (when) the exchange is compromised and the hot/cold wallets stolen it's insured

deanclkclk: lol

mircea_popescu: how come every day there's some doofus who does nothing but parts and joins ;/

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk so make a perpetuum mobile then, why you wasting your time with this crap.

deanclkclk: the only ones credible I know are the ones registered with finrar

deanclkclk: but, most traders don't want to be tracked

Namworld: There's already BTC-e to not be tracked. They don't require any verification as far as I know.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28818 @ 0.0008757 = 25.2359 BTC [+] {4}

Namworld: The registered ones are not typically insured.

deanclkclk: yes i know but, coinmkt requires social security

Duffer1: i don't know of any one that is insured

deanclkclk: how must of you guys get your money to exchanges? bank transfer?

Namworld: Yes. Bank transfer.

deanclkclk: that's the preferred way I guess

deanclkclk: and the fees doesn't matter to you guys right?

pankkake: there are fees for bank transfers?

mircea_popescu: ...

Namworld: I don't know of any fiat transfer mechanism without fees.

deanclkclk: no...apologies. I was talking about trading fees

mircea_popescu: or i could bitch.

Namworld: What about them? What do you want to do?

davout: pankkake: oui?

deanclkclk: offering less trading fees

ThickAsThieves: i dont quite understand the OpenEx withdrawal process, but we'll see...

Namworld: Well that wouldn't get me at all.

ThickAsThieves: it doesnt even ask for a wallet

Namworld: I don't care about lower fees.

pankkake: davout: about insured deposits on exchanges

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves maybe it's psychic ?

deanclkclk: what would get you then?

pankkake: or it's a "donate all to exchange owner" feature

benkay: NOTHING FUCK OFF DIE AND GO AWAY EXCHAGES ARE THE WORST AND ATTRACT THE WORST

benkay: sorry.

deanclkclk: Again, I just started out in trading about 4 months ago but, I'm a programmer

benkay: sorry for capslock :(

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk dude srsly, nobody is using the thing of an unknown. you were here in channel when this happened, openx just lost all its business because Apocalyptic.

Namworld: You've just proposed x then y then z upon seeing the first things were already there so wouldn't work. If you couldn't figure it out, you're not fit to handle customer Bitcoins. Because when first thing will work, there won't be other things to try.

deanclkclk: huh?

Namworld: Bitcoins will be gone.

pankkake: well Apocalyptic doesn't know how to configure a mail server so I'm still waiting for the activation mail

Namworld: I'm basically not going to touch anything you'd do.

deanclkclk: those were all my value proposition ..I couldn't just come and spill everything

deanclkclk: I asked one at a time to get a feel of what people want

mircea_popescu: and Namworld comes to the same conclusion everyone else did, but after putting more effort and time into it.

ThickAsThieves: pankkake mine went to spam

Namworld: I just wanted to go through all the details of why no one here is interested.

deanclkclk: who is

pankkake: my server greylists things that do not have SPF or proper SPF

deanclkclk: who is Apocalyptic?

Duffer1: people want trust (web of trust), people want competence (any experience in finance or handling other's significant amounts of money?)

benkay: who are you?

Namworld: I like explaining why.

mircea_popescu: Namworld yeah, i didn't mean it negatively.

ThickAsThieves: ;;gettrust Apocalyptic

gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user ThickAsThieves to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ThickAsThieves&dest=Apocalyptic | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Apocalyptic | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013

deanclkclk: finance is good but, also tech expertise

benkay: ;;gettrust deanclkclk

gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user benkay to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=benkay&dest=deanclkclk | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=deanclkclk | Rated since: never

benkay: if you want to btc

deanclkclk: most of the problem with exchanges are tech experience

benkay: first you must wot

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk get over that. techs are monkeys. nobody cares.

pankkake: Apocalyptic: 1) add a SPF record to x-bt.com 2) if possible set your reverse dns in something x-bt.com - that will reduce your amount of spaminess greatly

deanclkclk: ok

benkay: deanclkclk: incorrect.

benkay: deanclkclk: tech is a trivial thing.

Namworld: I know you didn't mircea, just a random fact I wanted to add to it.

deanclkclk: benkay: run that command again

Namworld: With that, I'm gone. Got to meet with the family.

mircea_popescu: have fun

deanclkclk: ;;gettrust deanclkclk

gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user deanclkclk to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=deanclkclk&dest=deanclkclk | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=deanclkclk | Rated since: never

deanclkclk: so I need to signup to WOT. I haven't done so

benkay: you also need to read the thing you were linked way back up miles above

deanclkclk: yes

ThickAsThieves: great snapshot http://imgur.com/1guYfy2

benkay: "so you want to start a bitcoin business"

mircea_popescu: i tohught he read that

deanclkclk: again who is apocalyptic?

mircea_popescu: but it didn't apply to him, because that was for all the OTHER kids.

Duffer1: MP you should have PR add 'dat variety speak' article to her start a business thread

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves ahaha seriously ?!

pankkake: I don't know who Apocalyptic is but people I trust seem to trust him

pankkake: ;;gettrust Apocalyptic

gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user pankkake to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=pankkake&dest=Apocalyptic | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Apocalyptic | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013

mircea_popescu: the news at 5, a string of mistakes that eventually annul each other if long enough.

Apocalyptic: pankkake, good point @SPF record

benkay: Duffer1: people who need to read Variety Speak won't get it.

deanclkclk: means that mircea_popescu recommended apocalyptic?

mircea_popescu: what im the only 1 ?

benkay: Duffer1: just like people who need to read "so you want to start a bitcoin business" can't get over their egos and get it.

ThickAsThieves: dean

deanclkclk: so let me get this straight. He created openex and people are loosing money?

ThickAsThieves: lear about the WoT

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.13199989 = 0.924 BTC [+]

ThickAsThieves: then youll understand why it matters at all

deanclkclk: I hear you ThickAsThieves

ThickAsThieves: and how the hell we can trust anyone across the webz

benkay: Duffer1: just like people who'd benefit from BingoBoingo's advice on how not to fail in bitcoin are too wrapped up in their silicon valley bullshit to listen to him.

assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624278/plain/)

BingoBoingo: !b 1

deanclkclk: ok so once I sign up..how does one become trusted?

Duffer1: hehe

deadweasel: 'ycombinated minds' as mircea_popescu aptly put it

mircea_popescu: deanclkclk well it first and foremost takes time

ThickAsThieves: you do trustworthy things

benkay: deanclkclk: do something useful, don't screw people over.

mircea_popescu: which is why you want to do that early and then lurk here

mircea_popescu: you'll figure it out soon enough

Duffer1: you're not wrong benkay, call me a hopeless optimist though, some may learn before they lose it all instead of after

BingoBoingo: deanclkclk: You do trustful things first, eventually you get to do trustworthy things

benkay: losing it all is a part of the learning process

deanclkclk: well..I started the project from December but, I've been mostly on #bitcoin, #bitcoin-dev and #litcoin

mircea_popescu: Duffer1 benkay it was illustrated recently by herbi. the only restraint is that people's ability to be all imperial and handwave reality be overrun

benkay: whether 'all' is 9 bucks like in herbi's case, or everything everything in yours...

pankkake: what about learning by losing it half?

mircea_popescu: they don't actually have to lose anytihng per se, other than their own vanity

mircea_popescu: (or, as a progre would put it, "self-respect")

deanclkclk: I know I guy here called twitz from here..I can't remember his irc name

benkay: pankkake i gotcha buddy

Duffer1: twizt

pankkake: I learned to do backups by losing only 1/3. but I still miss it :(

ThickAsThieves: some sleepytime audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yYrYCE4i1c

benkay: one can always earn more bitcoins.

benkay: one can never fix a reputation for incompetence.

ThickAsThieves: ozbot where are you?

benkay: much less a reputation for outright scammery.

pankkake: (backups in the general sense, not losing bitcoins due to lack of backups)

Duffer1: benkayone can always earn more bitcoins. >>> i wish

benkay: Duffer1: only thing holding you back is you, cousine.

ThickAsThieves: yep, ive seen like 3 jobs posted in here this week

BingoBoingo: ;;tslb

gribble: Time since last block: 13 minutes and 49 seconds

benkay: ThickAsThieves: what jobs?

ThickAsThieves: ATC Manager to the Stars

ThickAsThieves: ATC Trader to the Stars

ThickAsThieves: hehe

benkay: well that second one was actually a noob trap

ThickAsThieves: also i'll pay bounties for needed ATC services

BingoBoingo: benkay: Actually I'm handling that second on nao.

BingoBoingo: I am the n00btrap.

benkay: o yea

benkay: for teh lolz

ThickAsThieves: random thought, there;s no way in hell that wall st guy put 8 nails in himself

ThickAsThieves: he was killed

BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Why not. people survive more nails than that.

ThickAsThieves: it's like 5 dead now?

benkay: five who and what?

ThickAsThieves: it makes no sense

Duffer1: oh shi there's more?

BingoBoingo: Anyways. I thought he was Colorado Title company guy. Not Wallstreet.

mircea_popescu: <benkay> << one could, perhaps, but defo not by persevering in the manner that got them the original reputation in the first place.

ThickAsThieves: if youre gonna kill yourself and you are intelligent, wtf would you nailgub yourself, and when did go for it, how the hell do you make it to 7 or 8 in the body and head?

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves you know this was discussed :D

ThickAsThieves: nailgun*

ThickAsThieves: oh you think he was killed too?

BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Well, the nails themselves slow bleeding. And there was no evidence he was intelligent at all.

mircea_popescu: well it's a well known joke this, "suicide, 3 shots to the head"

Duffer1: depends on nail placement really

pankkake: probably lacked the street smarts

Duffer1: and basic knowledge of anatomy

mircea_popescu: <benkay> well that second one was actually a noob trap <<< all jobs are de facto noob traps

benkay: huh that's an interesting take

benkay: how so?

mircea_popescu: doh.

mircea_popescu: the thing that qualifies a good lay is exactly the thing that disqualifies a rotten one

benkay: oh enlighten my derpy ass

mircea_popescu: there's not this convenient cleavage of school from life irl.

Jere_Jones: Catching up on the last hour of conversation is depressing.

mircea_popescu: Jere_Jones

mircea_popescu: oops

mircea_popescu: Jere_Jones_wife : please hide any nailguns ty.

Jere_Jones: Before that. lol

davout: pankkake: what about the insured deposits ?

davout: pankkake: which deposits ? :-)

mircea_popescu: davout yes yes, we know, you have it.

davout: mircea_popescu: no i actually don't

mircea_popescu: for eur ? i thought it was eu banking w/e

mircea_popescu: "we promise you can get your money back unless germany needs it to bail out russian oligarchs in fucktardistan

mircea_popescu: "

davout: it seemed obvious to me when i first talked about it,

davout: which was a mistake, i double checked with the "fonds de garantie des dépôts" and they only cover accounts called "comptes de dépôt", and not "comptes de paiement"

mircea_popescu: o you sneak.

mircea_popescu: what are you, french ?

davout: anyway, the main point is that the money is on accounts in the name of the holders, in a financial insitution, not on our corporate accounts, and therefore legally not ours

mircea_popescu: nevertheless do go back and add addendums wherever feasible

mircea_popescu: otherwise that's grossly misrepresentative.

pankkake: the original question was "insurance from theft" though

pankkake: so that answers it

mircea_popescu: yeah but novel stuff thus unearthed

davout: pankkake: oic the question was about btc deposits

pankkake: I'm not sure

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00087607 = 24.7052 BTC [+] {5}

BingoBoingo: Apocalyptic: You orderbook looks weird

mircea_popescu: here on -assets we specialise in animated conversations with multiple participants all of which have no certain idea wtf the topic is, what's being said, what it means and so on.

mircea_popescu: works well enough so far.

davout: haha

mircea_popescu: the english language being employed is more an artefact of the observer than a reality of the conversation.

davout: i doubt any exchange found an insurance company to cover the btc deposits

Duffer1: have any tried?

benkay: heh i'd be surprised

davout: if any did try ?

mircea_popescu: davout sure they had.

davout: we did

mircea_popescu: CPA.

benkay: nah if any'd obtained the necessary ins

Duffer1: davout who'd you approach?

mircea_popescu: ;;google usagi CPA

gribble: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading ...: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113708.0>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 007 | Weather Philippines: <http://weather.com.ph/announcements/typhoon-usagi-odette-update-number-007>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 008 | Weather Philippines: <http://weather.com.ph/announcements/typhoon-usagi- (1 more message)

deanclkclk: pankkake: are you around?

ThickAsThieves: if anyone like's gingery drinks, this stuff is great: http://www.fever-tree.co.uk/drinks.php

davout: Duffer1: dunno, i didn't take care of that myself

Duffer1: ah

ThickAsThieves: good as mixer or a zippy refresher

ThickAsThieves: (the ginger beer)

deanclkclk: folks...attention. I bid for 1 BTC for $100 USD but, instead get 1.04 BTC

deanclkclk: does most exchange work like this?

Duffer1: how long ago? lloyds is covering some bitcoin based noob vault, they may be receptive

Duffer1: multiple tangents and generally talking past eachother? ya

mircea_popescu: i like the folks attention bit. who do you take yourself for dood.

mircea_popescu: shut up and spend the next year reading, you're not part of the speaking crowd here.

pankkake: deanclkclk: yes why?

deanclkclk: I just reread what you type and I think there's a misunderstanding

deanclkclk: see what I typed above pankkake &

deanclkclk: ^

Apocalyptic: BingoBoingo, what's weird about it ?

ThickAsThieves: dean you are making shit up in your head

ThickAsThieves: of course that happens

ThickAsThieves: when you overbid

ThickAsThieves: except you spend less $ instead

ThickAsThieves: you are trying to make some kind of reverse auction bidbook?

deanclkclk: overbid is relative

deanclkclk: how do you know you overbid

deanclkclk: ?

ThickAsThieves: if you knew you wouldnt overbid

deanclkclk: ThickAsThieves: that's not an exact science

deanclkclk: all I'm saying...with the site..there's no over bid

pankkake: I blame today's headache on you guys

ThickAsThieves: well the orders are always changing

deanclkclk: if you "overbid" ..u get more btc

deanclkclk: that's all

ThickAsThieves: i suggest you make your thing

deanclkclk: but, orders change a second

ThickAsThieves: sounds wonderful

deanclkclk: you sound sarcastic

ThickAsThieves: i do?

deanclkclk: well...seeing that no one here have said "wonderfule" since I've been here

ThickAsThieves: well its what you wanna hear right?

deanclkclk: well no

ThickAsThieves: oh?

deanclkclk: I want to get objective opinion

deanclkclk: rather calling me stupid

ThickAsThieves: does that opinion have to think you have a good idea?

deanclkclk: I don't know anymore

ThickAsThieves: they explained it to you

ThickAsThieves: you are scratching the surface

pankkake: the "doing it" phase usually helps you know if the idea was good or not

pankkake: and no need for real coins

deanclkclk: would testnet help?

ThickAsThieves: you dont need any coins

ThickAsThieves: its just a db

deanclkclk: ok

benkay: yeah simulate it

benkay: set it up

benkay: set up the simulations

benkay: and i'll go through the trouble of auditing your code.

deanclkclk: but, all I'm asking....do people ever work with exchanges that give you more for what you asked for?

benkay: deal?

deanclkclk: sure

mircea_popescu: benkay i thought you were busy

deanclkclk: that's a deal

benkay: he's never going to deliver.

benkay: i'm shorting his delivery.

mircea_popescu: if he is you owe me an atc.

deanclkclk: why you say that?

ThickAsThieves: a good exchange always gives you what you ask for, no?

deanclkclk: yes..that's the minimum ThickAsThieves

benkay: outta mah FACE mircea_popescu

deanclkclk: but, a better exchange gives you more

mircea_popescu: if he doesn't before you do you get 1.

Duffer1: i don't see how you could get more for what you asked for, someone has to get less in that scenario

deanclkclk: it doesn't Duffer1

benkay: i'm not taking this bet, mp.

mircea_popescu: lmao

BingoBoingo: Apocalyptic: I'm trying to put in a Bid for 12000 and instead getting bids for 12

mircea_popescu: i thought you already had. guess not huh.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00087145 = 7.6688 BTC [-]

benkay: how had i?

mircea_popescu: "i'm shorting his delivery."

ThickAsThieves: if i understand your idea, all it does is market buy with the rest of any money you bid, if you happened to overbid

benkay: yeah if he delivers i gotta deploy some time on a code audit

deanclkclk: if I bid $100 BTC but, I got it with 99 Duffer1 ..either the user gets back $5 dollars or they trade it for some additional BTC/Satoshis

deanclkclk: sorry I got it for 95

mircea_popescu: so if he doesn't deliver before you do you get a free atc.

benkay: before i do what now?

mircea_popescu: deliver.

ThickAsThieves: wow ATC only doled out in singles now

benkay: oh mimisbrunnr?

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves expensive shit.

mircea_popescu: benkay whatever it is you're busy with

benkay: nigga i got an endless list of shit to process

ThickAsThieves: is he busy making coingenularity.io yet?

mircea_popescu: yes yes, tits brulee.

benkay: gotta keep the brain in tip top condition

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves apparently he's busy watching womenz in negligees wash dishes and programmers do mysql exchanges.

deanclkclk: whatever I'm explaining is making sense?

davout: Duffer1: do you remember the name of the "vault" that says its insured?

Duffer1: let me look

ThickAsThieves: satoshisvault?

ThickAsThieves: this ? https://www.vaultofsatoshi.com/

ThickAsThieves: fukn doge..

Duffer1: davout http://www.coindesk.com/worlds-first-insured-bitcoin-storage-service-launches-uk/

deanclkclk: so I'm saying rather than get back $5 dollars and create another trade; which time is money and during that creation you might miss a chance on a great trade

deanclkclk: the site does it for you

davout: ThickAsThieves Duffer1 thanks i'll have a look

deanclkclk: well it's an option. Get back fiat or get more crypto

benkay: ThickAsThieves: he's convinced me to hack an allchain watcher together

ThickAsThieves: a what?

benkay: precisely.

mircea_popescu: omg sikrits

benkay: shh

deanclkclk: hello? anyone can let me know if this idea makes any sense?

ThickAsThieves: lol

benkay: yes

benkay: now go do it

benkay: less talk, more do.

deanclkclk: benkay: u are not bullshitting me right?

deanclkclk: lol

ThickAsThieves: it sounds more like a feature than an exhange dean

benkay: not at all

ThickAsThieves: like a tickbox by my order fields

deanclkclk: yes

ThickAsThieves: X Full Spend if Overbid?

deanclkclk: yes

Duffer1: i don't see why you would want to dean, a person can just set their price to buy until their 100 is spent

benkay: you make an exchange, i'll audit it for you.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.0008713 = 9.5843 BTC [-]

benkay: all the audits going to say is probably something like "kinda full of holes, operationally bogus, liable to lose your coins"

ThickAsThieves: why market buy when you can pseudo market buy?

deanclkclk: if you say so benkay

deanclkclk: but, it will be in beta

benkay: deal? you stop bothering us about this until it's done, when it's done i audit your codebase.

deanclkclk: what do you mean Duffer1 ?

ThickAsThieves: i like how beta means "dont look at me if your money disappears"

Duffer1: well what happens right now if you place a 100$ bid for btc on btc-e?

deanclkclk: no..it's fake coins

deanclkclk: well play coins

deanclkclk: just for testing

deanclkclk: then when launch..the site will provide 3 months of trading free

Duffer1: if your bid matches a sell, the exchange executes the trade for however much the seller sold

Duffer1: your position is still open if you have any money left and no sellers willing to meat your price

deanclkclk: hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100%

Duffer1: meet

ThickAsThieves: lol

mircea_popescu: the decision of how many months of free trade to have is a resolution of the greater issue of how to market a product, which is in turn decided and framed by greater issues.

mircea_popescu: to have fixed answers for such low level questions at this juncture merely indicates you do not have the intellectual resources to correctly model the problem you declare./

Apocalyptic: <deanclkclk> hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100% // good luck with that

deanclkclk: why Apocalyptic ?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 377 @ 0.05626923 = 21.2135 BTC [-] {12}

ThickAsThieves: lol

deanclkclk: I wasn't asking question mircea_popescu I was pitching an idea

deanclkclk: go fuck yourself

mircea_popescu: derp.

pankkake: :(

ThickAsThieves: ;;roulette

gribble: *click*

ThickAsThieves: ;;bcstats

deanclkclk: from my first sentence..you've been making me out to be a mentally retarded idiot

Duffer1: don't take that personally hehe

deanclkclk: rather than complain..offer suggestions

Duffer1: have you read Trilema?

mircea_popescu: i wasn't making you out.

deanclkclk: I don't know everything...that's why I asked for answers...suggestions

mircea_popescu: and you are neither at liberty to judge me nor are you at liberty to make recommendation.

mircea_popescu: more importantly, you aren't at liberty to ignore the recommendations i make. re-read the log, they're there.

mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of you "not knowing everything", implying we are somehow equal.

mircea_popescu: it is a matter of you not knowing anything, not even sufficiently something to allow you to understand how little you know.

deanclkclk: man

mircea_popescu: ayup.

mircea_popescu: so now that we understand ourselves, get in the wot, stfu and read the log for a while, then we can talk again.

ThickAsThieves: deanclkclk log.bitcoin-assets.com, http://assass.headfucking.net/

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06950005 = 0.139 BTC [-]

ThickAsThieves: and http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Main_Page

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00087689 = 2.6307 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: speaking of which, pankkake you may wanna take out the OTQuMjMuMjE1LjE3NA== part.

mircea_popescu: it's there so i can ip-ban spammy rss stealers.

benkay: deanclkclk: you agreed to bugger off 'till you delivered something i can audit. now do so.

davout: Duffer1: looks interesting, i see nothing obviously sketchy for the service

pankkake: I don't know if I can apply filters to this thing

davout: ThickAsThieves: vaultofsatoshi has like a 11-people team, that sounds big for an exchange that does 400 weekly volume

mircea_popescu: davout who are the 11 people ?

Duffer1: davout ya it's just insured cold storage, but maybe lloyds would be approachable about insuring an exchange

ThickAsThieves: i know nothing of it

ThickAsThieves: just recalled the name for some reason

davout: the insured guys are elliptic.co btw

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [-]

davout: mircea_popescu: https://www.vaultofsatoshi.com/about

mircea_popescu: davout so there's 11 stock pics or w/e.

benkay: and maybe in retrospect it's not so much a shorting as entering into an option to spend some time if the guy leaves us alone, delivery of which he'll take when/if he delivers

deanclkclk: I'll try another irc. You guys are too playful to be taken seriously

benkay: deanclkclk does that mean our deal's off?

ThickAsThieves: your loss

benkay: play is an important part of thinking

Duffer1: i doubt very much you'll receive competent advice elsewhere

ThickAsThieves: go check out bitcoin-dev or something i guess

mircea_popescu: benkay Yeah, Im getting rid of all my furniture. All of it. And Im going to build these different levels, with steps, and itll all be carpeted with a lot of pillows. You know, like ancient Egypt.

davout: mircea_popescu: exactly, which looks sketchy

davout: deanclkclk: you want advice to create your exchange?

benkay: deanclkclk: you might listen to davout he does what you're dreaming of doing.

deanclkclk: I don't want on how to create an exchange. I'm just pitching my idea to get a feel of what people think

mircea_popescu: davout is too playful to be taken srsly.

deanclkclk: want a how to*

davout: deanclkclk: so you want a howto about how to create an exchange?

deanclkclk: lol

deanclkclk: oh boy

mircea_popescu: i could use a how to on how to.

ThickAsThieves: OpenEx is opensource, use that

benkay: yeah your howotos suck, mircea_popescu

Apocalyptic: (don't)

mircea_popescu: WHAT!

benkay: it's like you write 'em yourself or something ;)

mircea_popescu: i am so misunderstood. nobody understands me

mircea_popescu: im going to shoot myself with the stapler gun nao

benkay: well you write for yourself, is it any surprise?

davout: deanclkclk: oh sorry, I misread, what's your idea?

benkay: jurov had to pay me to write a manual for your "exchange"

Duffer1: ha i told stringpuller there was money there like months ago

deanclkclk: davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for

ThickAsThieves: what i hate about mpex is, whenever i overbid, i have btc left unspent, fukn noobs

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i was in talks with some people to recharge your phone after bids if there's like stuff left over

mircea_popescu: however i think they od'd or something because i haven't heard from them in a while

deanclkclk: do you folks trade on sites or mobile apps?

pankkake: idea: when you overpay for shares, it is distributer to the seller; we would call this tipping

ThickAsThieves: mostly via SMS

mircea_popescu: whoa a TIPPING EXCHANGE

Apocalyptic: <deanclkclk> davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for // so what about it ?

mircea_popescu: it could be all coded in doge-os

BingoBoingo: doge.js

pankkake: well, http://lolcode.org/

deanclkclk: dajavu but, anyways

pankkake: omg "now with doge"

Apocalyptic: BTC China already has these rebates, where the fee for the liquidity taker goes to the one who put up the bid/ask

mircea_popescu: i wonder if praeconium has an evil sock meconium

davout: deanclkclk: that's your idea for an exchange?

deanclkclk: I bid a $100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for $95.

benkay: doge-vu

davout: i spend all the 100$ and get more btc

davout: yeah i got that

deanclkclk: and use the $5 dollars to find an additional ask

BingoBoingo: "I'm fucking sick of hearing people say use your brian, etc." https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=467059.msg5167848#msg5167848

davout: deanclkclk: this is not a very interesting idea, and certainly not an idea worth building an exchange around

deanclkclk: so basically you could have a case where for the original $100 for 1 BTC..I get 1.02 btc

deanclkclk: @ davout ^

davout: yeah, i got that the first time

davout: :-)

deanclkclk: ok

mircea_popescu: O RLY? YA RLY <code block> NO WAI <code block> OIC

deanclkclk: why isn't it interesting?

mircea_popescu: ok this is pretty good :D

Bugpowder: mircea_popescu: when is the MPOEbot coming back? And when will pending deposits be credited?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00087433 = 4.2405 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: Bugpowder the bot just as soon as it manages to talk to bitcoincharts

deanclkclk: @ davout ^

mircea_popescu: and deposits just as soon as lemme see

davout: deanclkclk: because you reinvented market orders, except you have the currency amount you're spending locked, not the currency you're buying

Bugpowder: been waiting for a test deposit for 36 hours....

davout: bitstamp already does it

davout: deanclkclk: so no, it's not a very interesting idea, not a bad way to let users place orders but still

deanclkclk: you are a trader davout ?

mircea_popescu: incredible how thick this guy is lmao

davout: goodbye deanclkclk, i'm going to play

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pretty lulzy.

deanclkclk: davout: it benefits the seller and buyer. I was talking from mostly from the buyer

deanclkclk: ok

Bugpowder: I like the cryptsy system of, whatever bid you place that is over market, you get filled at asks at that exact price.

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course. Who really wants to use their acquaintance Brian in that way at all. Everyone knows their Brian will just flag everything as a scam and tell them to STFU n00b.

mircea_popescu: clearly evil brian.

Duffer1: cryptsy system of trading, make trade, it executes a few hours later

mircea_popescu: Bugpowder why ?

deanclkclk: Duffer1: u mean everything gets execute late?

Bugpowder: you know... place asks and bids way off market at round numbers, get favorably filled at random intervals in the future.

Duffer1: it was a joke, cryptsy is a joke ^.^

mircea_popescu: sounds artistic.

mircea_popescu: like you know, trade as a happening.

BingoBoingo: I'm wondering when other ATC people are coming over to Apocalyptic's exchange.

BingoBoingo: Or... are we all waiting for Openex withdrawals

benkay: openex scam

benkay: use your brian BingoBoingo

Apocalyptic: first ATC deposits will confirm in a couple of hours given the network rate, no much action to be expected until then

Bugpowder: heheh

Apocalyptic: benkay, indeed

BingoBoingo: benkay: They have processed withdrawals before, it just usually takes 12 hours or so. Now, their order matching... totally scam.

mircea_popescu: yeah even on the internets ppl need a little time

Apocalyptic: it seems deanclkclk took his idea over to -otc now

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00087723 = 24.2115 BTC [+] {4}

Duffer1: i wonder how many times he's been offered super cheap ltc

mircea_popescu: prolly a much better environment for him anwyay.

davout: deanclkclk: what people are trying to tell you is that your idea is not retarded, but that it does not constitute an original value proposition

benkay: you guys you guys you guys

benkay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_JOBCLF-I

benkay: THAT IS EVERYONE IN BITCOIN

benkay: especially deanclkclk

benkay: plus also the animations are pretty sweet

mircea_popescu: omfg the derpage.

benkay: did i just get mircea_popescu to watch a video?

mircea_popescu: indirectly but yet.

mircea_popescu: yes*

benkay: indirectly?

mircea_popescu: someone must be punished for this.

benkay: it's his fault.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00087806 = 8.3416 BTC [+] {2}

BingoBoingo: Looks like Openex just processed a batch of withdrawls. Once these things confirm it will be time to shoot them over to x-bt

Apocalyptic: .d

Apocalyptic: damn you ozbot

BingoBoingo: ;;diff

gribble: 2.6214044530646152E9

asciilifeform: ;;gpg eauth asciilifeform

gribble: Request successful for user asciilifeform, hostmask asciilifeform!~asciilife@pool-96-241-145-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/B98228A001ABFFC7

asciilifeform: ;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:1b013f0cf4604b0b39eee440b7280e1eb97c6aab5d299814ffc31393

gribble: You are now authenticated for user asciilifeform with key B98228A001ABFFC7

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself << not quite.

asciilifeform: fundamental ideas are still possible.

mircea_popescu: like for instance.

asciilifeform: i have so little faith in the meta-nsa that i'll drop one here.

mircea_popescu: can be historical

mircea_popescu: doesn't have to be curren

mircea_popescu: t

asciilifeform: 2 yrs. ago i figured out how to flex a fairly ordinary multi-conductor cable in an arbitrary spot, at an arbitrary angle, purely electrically.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.05500028 = 1.1 BTC [-] {3}

asciilifeform: this alone should be enough detail for any 'alert reader' to replicate...

mircea_popescu: and this is fundamental ?

asciilifeform: depends on your definition of fundamental. robotics without motors, gears, shafts, lubrication...

asciilifeform: if 'fundamental' means 'discover new field of mathematics', then clearly not.

mircea_popescu: well given what you were replying to i took fundamental to mean "which was never afore thought"

asciilifeform: i did try to find some prior art, of some kind. found none.

asciilifeform: i post this turd here, to challenge the 1,000 idlers listening to us, to do so.

asciilifeform: i'd dearly love for it to be found. so i'm not stuck building the damn thing.

asciilifeform: hint: waveguide allowed to deform.

asciilifeform: as far as i could tell, the last fellow who pondered a related question was mr. t, when he coughed up the ac motor.

mircea_popescu: seems to me about half the 12-yo-boy demographic cartoons out there use this concept.

mircea_popescu: understand, my approach was cultural not technical.

asciilifeform: ?

asciilifeform: every animated robot i know of shows robotic arms with joints

asciilifeform: rather than walking coax.

mircea_popescu: i just googled "robot cartoon"

asciilifeform: (well, triax.)

mircea_popescu: the 7 images at the top include 0 articulated arms

mircea_popescu: all are some sort of tube

asciilifeform: they still typically show at least vaguely jointed movement.

asciilifeform: though perhaps an aficionado of tentacle porn could cough up a counter-example.

mircea_popescu: now, obviously the fact that star-trek revolves around ipads does exactly nothing in a discussion of prior ipad art

mircea_popescu: but it was this rather than that angle i was pursuing.

asciilifeform: so, boolean algebra. fundamental? or, aristotle?

asciilifeform: (that is, or not, given the latter)

mircea_popescu: right.

asciilifeform: semiconductor?

mircea_popescu: the cellphone is a trivial greek trinket. they didn't know how to make it, but they did have them in their speech

mircea_popescu: semiconductor is fundamental perhaps.

asciilifeform: public key crypto?

mircea_popescu: certainly the strange behaviours of quantum that manifest at a macro level, from magnetism to histerezis, would perhaps count.

asciilifeform: i tend to think of 'fundamental' in the literal sense. that is, becomes a foundation for a recognizably novel class of things

mircea_popescu: pkc definitely not.

mircea_popescu: yeah but novel in what sense.

mircea_popescu: novel as in "never made before" or novel as in "never spoken of before" ?

asciilifeform: novel in the classic sense of transforming a 'mystery' into a mere 'problem'.

mircea_popescu: right. but still, people spoke of the mystery back when it was not yet a problem

mircea_popescu: would you say the people trying to disprove (or for that matter prove) ZFC are or are not included ?

asciilifeform: can only be said in retrospect.

mircea_popescu: does only the speech of whoever gets the result count ?

mircea_popescu: right. which is what invalidates (from a purely philosophical pov) the approach

Bugpowder: mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon.

asciilifeform: true. the turd i threw in is not 'fundamental invention', unless it is 10 yrs. later.

asciilifeform: (and the stepper motor and ball screw go to the junkyard)

asciilifeform: (picture, say, street swept by long spool of wire with a broom on one end and a lunchbox-sized driver on the other.)

asciilifeform: every day i wake up and wonder how many other folks are sitting on crap like this

asciilifeform: because there's no place for it.

ThickAsThieves: <Bugpowder> mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon. /// unlikely til Gox reopens wd's

mircea_popescu: why ?

ThickAsThieves: cuz i assume bot is off cuz risk

Bugpowder: as do i

mircea_popescu: no, srsly, it actually did not get prices.

Bugpowder: shorting puts right now would be sweet

mircea_popescu: last it quoted was sometime yest.

ThickAsThieves: where do you get prices?

Bugpowder: though shorting puts yesterday would have been sweeter.

ThickAsThieves: http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/weighted_prices.json

ThickAsThieves: works for me

mircea_popescu: http://mpex.co/faq.html#25 same place.

mircea_popescu: yes but it has to answer when the bot asks

Bugpowder: ;;bc,24hprc

gribble: 463.40

ThickAsThieves: ok

ThickAsThieves: bot asks like every 10min no?

mircea_popescu: i think there may be a cascading effect where if it misses one it asks too often and then it gets banned for an interval

mircea_popescu: but i was never able to troubleshoot it

mircea_popescu: how would it have been sweet yest anyway ? seem sthe price dropped.

asciilifeform: unrelated: neat find, from today's trip to library, for all crypto aficionados: 'Post-Quantum Cryptography.' Bernstein, Buchmann & Dahmen. (2009)

ThickAsThieves: i dont plan on buying any, i just think it's weird how this happens every "crash"

mircea_popescu: does it tho ?

asciilifeform: (anyone playing with mceliece and the like will find something delicious therein)

ThickAsThieves: at least 2 of the 3 ive seen

ThickAsThieves: i dont recall abnout the 1200 drop

mircea_popescu: yeah well in this process any data can be fit to any hypothesis.

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, you're into crypto ?

ThickAsThieves: mpex would certainly look better to be working than not

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: just so happens i'm into a number of things.

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves no particular requirement one can't just trade as is you know ?

ThickAsThieves: not sure what you are saying

Apocalyptic: I wrote some crypto challenges a couple of years ago, involving breaking hash functions and differential crypto, they might interest you

mircea_popescu: i am saying that mpex allows people to trade whether the bot quotes or doesn't quote,

ThickAsThieves: we're talking about the bot

mircea_popescu: and that the bot is a private offering which is in principle not required to offer anyone any convenience other than its backers.

mircea_popescu: so it can't possibly a) look good or bad b) make mpex anything.

benkay: people can't price options on their own, though mircea. that competence thing.

ThickAsThieves: to you maybe

mircea_popescu: well to logix

ThickAsThieves: why not fix it?

benkay: it's not making any money for mpex shareholders not trading!

ThickAsThieves: ^ decent argument as well

mircea_popescu: cuz it's a fucking hassle to fiddle with its feed, it being hardened ;/

benkay: ThickAsThieves that sounds like a call for a subscription market service.

ThickAsThieves: sound slike something karpeles would say

mircea_popescu: but yeah, quoting outages are temporary, people (who don't generally trade) like to bitch/find conspiraci explanations for otherwise random events.

mircea_popescu: which you know, how much effort can i expend chasing.

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves dude wtf are you talking about srsly. what is the connection there ?

asciilifeform: a hilarious find, from the same trip: http://imgur.com/6JhjQeY

ThickAsThieves: saying it's a hassle to fix a broken service?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06099997 = 0.61 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: i think you misrepresent a convenience for a right.

asciilifeform: i was not able to locate the ditch filled with the non-functioning students.

asciilifeform: but i admit i did not look very hard.

benkay: all in their bedrooms

mircea_popescu: the bot doesn't have to quote any more than you do. where's your quote on options ?

benkay: ruminating on the future of los estados unidos

mircea_popescu: have you fixed this broken service ?

ThickAsThieves: no one has to do anything

ThickAsThieves: let's just all go home

benkay: also wtf terp asciilifeform?

asciilifeform: turtle is the symbol of the uni. for some reason.

mircea_popescu: no but srsly.

benkay: yeah but - 'terp'?

asciilifeform: terrapin turtle

ThickAsThieves: is there any logging of mpexbot uptime?

ThickAsThieves: optionsbot

asciilifeform: about palm-sized.

ThickAsThieves: not sure what you name it

mircea_popescu: not that i know, but i suppose it's becoming more useful.

Apocalyptic: benkay, a mix between turtle and derp

benkay: all terps are henceforth confined to their quarters

benkay: ritual canings will be administered until moral improves.

asciilifeform: there is a statue on the campus, car-sized, so many of the locals think it must be a gigantic sea-turtle.

ThickAsThieves: i guess no one cares but Bugpowder anyway

benkay: morale*

ThickAsThieves: i still think it's lame

benkay: i care where's my damn options bot profit

mircea_popescu: so make a watcher and do some research.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00087866 = 24.1632 BTC [+] {4}

benkay: i don't really much care in the grand scheme of things but its a point what needs making.

Bugpowder: I have a history of crushing MPOEbot. I think MP fears my awesome trading powers and has pulled the bot.

benkay: lol yeah he saw you fiddling with your key again and pulled the bot

ThickAsThieves: it did happen whilst you were sorting out your key!

Bugpowder: EXACTLY

mircea_popescu: clearly!

ThickAsThieves: observably!

Bugpowder: ALSO HE DELAYED DEPOSIT FLUSHING

Bugpowder: DOUBLEY SAFE

benkay: teh horreur

mircea_popescu: no that was because of satoshi malleability.

asciilifeform: the turtle statue traditionally gets 'offerings' during exam week. this year, more whiskey bottles and handmade bongs than ever before.

mircea_popescu: we had to check all satoshis for cubeness

mircea_popescu: by hand

mircea_popescu: one at a time

benkay: malleability options next?

Bugpowder: heh

Bugpowder: to manipulatable

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.00296999 = 0.1574 BTC [+]

benkay: well yeah

davout: "we had to check all satoshis for cubeness" <<< win

Bugpowder: I imagine the feed will start working around the same time gox gets dropped from bitcoincharts, and the artificial price jump risk will have been eliminated

mircea_popescu: with all the bitching,

mircea_popescu: 13924429xx ; 13924424xx ; 13924419xx ; 13924414xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924403xx ; 13924403xx ; 13923763xx ; 13923724xx ; 13923716xx

mircea_popescu: that's the past 12 times it quoted

mircea_popescu: Bugpowder srsly, mtgox is not even in the feed of bitcoincharts, since days ago.

mircea_popescu: it has exactly 0 impact in all this discussion.

ThickAsThieves: yes it is

mircea_popescu: mnope.

Bugpowder: it is

Bugpowder: how do they get $465 / BTC

Bugpowder: without it.

Bugpowder: IMPOSSIBURU

ThickAsThieves: you even noted yourself yesterday

ThickAsThieves: that it factors euro

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 439 @ 0.00296999 = 1.3038 BTC [+] {2}

ThickAsThieves: goxprice

mircea_popescu: o wow look at that.

mircea_popescu: well this is definite bs.

mircea_popescu: but but but wtf, soimehow my bot sees 500ish avgs

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 76 @ 0.00296999 = 0.2257 BTC [+]

ThickAsThieves: i thgought it couldnt see?

mircea_popescu: 537 last

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i just gave you above a list of last times it quoted!

pankkake: Updated http://assass.headfucking.net/ : better CSS(!), strip weird Trilema feed stuff, links to foaf/opml so you can import the list into your own reader. and this is genius: http://intertwingly.net/code/venus/docs/filters.html

ThickAsThieves: how do i read that list?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 392 @ 0.00296998 = 1.1642 BTC [-] {2}

mircea_popescu: unixtime

Bugpowder: I just want to short 50 DITM puts. A pittance.

Bugpowder: come back MPOEbot

Bugpowder: come back

Bugpowder: I miss u

mircea_popescu: dude did bitcoincharts split the feeds or something wtf is going on here.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 40 @ 0.00297 = 0.1188 BTC [+]

Bugpowder: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currencies/

ozbot: Bitcoin Charts / Markets

Bugpowder: what feed are you looking at?

davout: mircea_popescu: if they removed gox from the index it'll probably still be taking into account data from before the removal

Bugpowder: 24hr bor

Bugpowder: bro

davout: Bugpowder: if it's the 24avg and it's been more than 24h then yes I guess sthg is off

ThickAsThieves: i dont think they removed gox

ThickAsThieves: and i doubt they will

davout: this ^

Bugpowder: I don't see why they should.

Bugpowder: They aren't making financial decisions based on their quote

mircea_popescu: sooooo

Bugpowder: though a nefarious agent could potentially take an options position and bribe them to remove it for assured profit.

mircea_popescu: turns out bugpowder is exactly right. bot actually isn't quoting because feeds disagree not because it couldn't get them.

mircea_popescu: i was wrong o.o

benkay: !b2

assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624396/plain/)

ThickAsThieves: !b 3

benkay: foar history.

Bugpowder: lol

mircea_popescu: well fuck me am i supposed to know all this code these people write all the time everywhere omfgbbq

kakobrekla: i take bribes not to publish that.

Apocalyptic: heh

ThickAsThieves: lol

ThickAsThieves: we do it cuz we love you mp

Bugpowder: You should get the line before it too.

Bugpowder: A prediction of the future

Bugpowder: Feb 27, 2014.

benkay: mircea_popescu's having software trubbles

benkay: lol prole problems

davout: 2015 -> "intern accidentally deletes mpex"

benkay: proleblems

assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624399/plain/)

benkay: !b 1

mircea_popescu: benkay the sad part of this of course being that this is actually according to spec i wrote myself.

benkay: wow the spec didn't account for all edge cases

mircea_popescu: at a time long ago when nobody had heard of such a case or imagined it likely.

benkay: color my ass surprised

mircea_popescu: no, that's the problem : it did.

mircea_popescu: it accounted for cases i duly forgot about and then happened

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]

benkay: oh well then

benkay: mp wrote a spec that performs

benkay: color my ass surprised?

benkay: just joshin ya boss

mircea_popescu: anyway, mpoebot isn't quoting because the derivation among exchanges is too large, and likely won't until this is resolved somehow.

kakobrekla: why was the last quote 13923716xx then

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]

Bugpowder: That seems more plausible

mircea_popescu: kakobrekla because then somehow (?!) the bitcoincharts avg came out as 537

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 564 @ 0.00023993 = 0.1353 BTC [-] {4}

mircea_popescu: which i still have no idea how

Bugpowder: mircea_popescu taps his keyboard of +3 plausibility.

kakobrekla: arite.

mircea_popescu: anyway ppls thanks for bringing it up lol.

mircea_popescu: by being in -assets i get the chance to learn how mpoebot etc actually work.

mircea_popescu: of course...this opnes up a fucking conundrum from hell,

mircea_popescu: because i am currently carrying a shitton of puts, which i would contractually be allowed to execute at the 430 bs bitcoincharts price

benkay: ;;ticker --market btcavg

gribble: BitcoinAverage BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 652.46, Best ask: 654.28, Bid-ask spread: 1.82000, Last trade: 654.25, 24 hour volume: 39430.17, 24 hour low: None, 24 hour high: None, 24 hour vwap: 647.65

mircea_popescu: hmm i wonder where that's from.

mircea_popescu: nanotube where does gribble get ;;ticker --market btcavg data from ?

TomServo: I'd guess https://bitcoinaverage.com/#USD

Bugpowder: EXERCISE THAT SHIT

TomServo: Not sure why that's not the default tbh

nanotube: mircea_popescu: bitcoinaverage.com

mircea_popescu: a ty.

mircea_popescu: TomServo who runs it ? do you know ?

Bugpowder: It's 23,000BTC worth

Bugpowder: EXERCISE

Bugpowder: MAKE DAT MONEY

TomServo: mircea_popescu: I don't, sorry.

Bugpowder: 12,000BTC PROFIT

nanotube: mircea_popescu: bitnumus

mircea_popescu: aha.

nanotube: mircea_popescu: bitcoincharts average got messed up one day, because anx.hk accidentally pushed dogecoin trade data in place of bitcoin - thus producing high volume at really low price, and screwing things up.

mircea_popescu: nanotube was that day like feb 14th ?

nanotube: i think charts has removed anx.hk for the moment

nanotube: erhm... let me see

benkay: #bitcoin-assets

nanotube: nope, that event was on feb 10

benkay: testing in production since 2011

assbot: Last 7 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624416/plain/)

benkay: !b 7

nanotube: heh

BingoBoingo: Looks like x-bt had its first ATC trade

pankkake: there's a usuability issue, when you put an order, you get into the page in POST mode; refreshing it would likely submit the order a second time

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00087806 = 8.8684 BTC [-]

Apocalyptic: it wouldn't pankkake

mircea_popescu: what's the url again ?

Apocalyptic: csrf one-time token on every form

pankkake: oh, right

pankkake: https://x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc

BingoBoingo: https://x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc

ozbot: X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin

mircea_popescu: ty

Apocalyptic: unless you submit it before the script has a chance to set the new token ofc

mircea_popescu: um...

pankkake: I'm trying a herbijujular strategy!

mircea_popescu: you don't disable tokens after use ?

cads: mircea_popescu: I'm looking for introductory materials in quantitative finance with focus on hedge funds and derivatives valuation. Any input in this direction?

mircea_popescu: cads it'd deeply depend on what your background is.

mircea_popescu: pure math no finance ?

benkay: cads: joshi, derivatives.

mircea_popescu: i r guess ms joshi can't hurt

cads: mircea_popescu: some economics and game theory

mircea_popescu: "on becoming a quant", see if you hate it

mircea_popescu: iirc it was free

cads: math background is category theory, algebra, graphs and computation/logic

benkay: http://www.markjoshi.com/downloads/advice.pdf

benkay: that'd be the piece in question, cads.

cads: cool, I'll give joshi a spin

benkay: also jc hull

benkay: options derivatives and stuff

benkay: req'd reading.

mircea_popescu: bear in mind that quants are idiots tho. always important to keep this clearly in your head

mircea_popescu: lest you end up believing your imagination has some bearing on reality.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 582 @ 0.00083559 = 0.4863 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06799997 = 0.408 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06799997 = 0.34 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: on which topic n taleb's stuff can't be sufficiently recommended i guess.

cads: mircea_popescu: Haha you mean quantitative models don't magically reorganize reality into your will?

mircea_popescu: exactly

mircea_popescu: and what's worse :

BingoBoingo: The herbi lesson where you place orders based on how you want the book to look rather than on how you could buy and sell at palatable prices.

mircea_popescu: this remains true no matter how breathtakingly beautiful, elegant or symetrical they be.

benkay: no mircea_popescu you see i have this model and it shows that if things were different things would be different

mircea_popescu: i have a different model.

mircea_popescu: the volatility in this chan is fantasitc, not two hours ago we were discussing the new and improved ordering whereby you get more phonenumber with your order,

mircea_popescu: now we're knee deep in kaballah,

mircea_popescu: it never ends with you people.

benkay: quantitative finance -> kabbalah

benkay: i'll buy that one ;)

mircea_popescu: benkay what do you think numeric/quantitative methods are ?

mircea_popescu: re asciilifeform's coin of dry spittle.

cads: I've been butting heads with the stochastic calculus and I think I'm about ready to start reading Probability with Martingales - random variables, random processes, and statistics are starting to feel a lot more natural.

BingoBoingo: The stuff that made Madonna dump A-Rod because his Batting average and WAR stopped being good numbers.

cads: Surprisingly so.... I'd hate for it to go to my head, though :)

mircea_popescu: cads you seen the predictonator ?

cads: Sounds like something a fund manager would name his secret pet model

benkay: mircea_popescu: stochastic simulations, generally? you'd know more than me...

benkay: i was cracking wise about the technical folks' tendency to resort to blind incantations.

mircea_popescu: http://www.loper-os.org/bad-at-entropy/manmach.html

ozbot: Man vs. Machine.

mircea_popescu: tjhat thing

mircea_popescu: benkay but dja know what the kabbalist ppl mostly do ?

cads: the thing I find very useful about the calculus is that, forget finance, say you're dealing with an arrival process in a factory production cell or in an autonomous agent - now /that/ is a situation where your models basically become the magic word of god.

mircea_popescu: this is true.

benkay: mircea_popescu: what?

benkay: cads: you can find greater job satisfaction at a lower rate doing stochastic inventory and supply chain stuff. that said, you have to live in factories or warehouses and interact with line staff from time to time.

mircea_popescu: benkay you familiar with how if you read only the nth letter in an arbitrary string you may find a message in there ?

benkay: mircea_popescu: yup

mircea_popescu: that, then.

cads: benkay: I currently /am/ a factory worker :)

mircea_popescu: and various variations and generalisations

benkay: stochastic extraction of "sensible" strings from longer ones?

mircea_popescu: which all amount to basically "let's find the parametric function of the future" or meaning or w/e

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 785 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1947 BTC [+]

benkay: cads: well then there ain't nowhere to go but up!

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.55999949 = 1.12 BTC [+] {2}

cads: So knowing the nth letter of say an english message will definitely give a probability distribution for things like "what word does this letter belong to" or "is this the middle or end of a word."

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.00087779 = 21.4181 BTC [-] {2}

mircea_popescu: cads except that's the correct way to use numeric methods

mircea_popescu: (ie, as to the message processed)

mircea_popescu: the kabbalistic approach is to use them in the manner global warmists use their "data"

mircea_popescu: ie, to predict or enact the word of gawd.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579995 = 0.1032 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: (because you see, everything is in the torah, including the birthdate of your future wife you;ve not yet met, as well as the name of her secret lover)

benkay: this is true of π as well.

mircea_popescu: it is also true of the assets bash.

benkay: oh, our corpus isn't quite *that* large or *that* stochastic now...

BingoBoingo: And the trillions of hashes per second which aren't good enough to find blocks.

mircea_popescu: nevertheless it includes by reference enough material.

cads: This is why I refuse to learn finance first. I'd rather take whatever math intuition handicap than be caught using theorems whose conditions are not satisfied.

mircea_popescu: cads you'll never be popular with the fiat-finance crowds,

mircea_popescu: but at least you can always hang out here.

Bugpowder: You could probably do well in the just-dice groupie scene too

kakobrekla: lol price on gox just went 370->530

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6034 @ 0.0008728 = 5.2665 BTC [-] {2}

Bugpowder: god damn it

cads: oh yeah, I'd heard of a sizeable market crash.

Bugpowder: time for the bot to start quoting again

benkay: ;;ticker --market mtgox

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 440.0, Best ask: 442.97, Bid-ask spread: 2.97000, Last trade: 450.0, 24 hour volume: 53582.53478578, 24 hour low: 310.0, 24 hour high: 540.0, 24 hour vwap: 368.92604

Bugpowder: Roger Ver's deposit cleared

benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: von neumann widget, lol. can't wait for some joker to start 'predicting market'

pankkake: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1y116j/mtgox_bitcoin_withdrawals_working_again/ successful trolling I guess

ozbot: MtGox bitcoin withdrawals working again : Bitcoin

mircea_popescu: start ?!

cads: bitcoinity.org is now tracking bitstamp rather than gox?

mircea_popescu: cads pretty much everyone is.

mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 666.0, Best ask: 669.0, Bid-ask spread: 3.00000, Last trade: 666.0, 24 hour volume: 20510.92582860, 24 hour low: 628.88, 24 hour high: 673.01, 24 hour vwap: 650.017359511

cads: Do we have arbitrage between gox and bitstamp?

mircea_popescu: gox is kinda dead

cads: gotcha

cads: 'Transaction Malleability'!?

asciilifeform: benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy << there is much to be learned from carnival / stage magic tradecraft re: scams

mircea_popescu: carnies. definitely.

asciilifeform: the 'plant in the audience' recipe, etc.

mircea_popescu: cads http://trilema.com/2014/mtgox-and-ancient-bitcoin-history-the-straight-dope/

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15141 @ 0.00087184 = 13.2005 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2013#416417 check me out :D

ozbot: #bitcoin-assets log

mircea_popescu: also :

mircea_popescu: Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 139 @ 0.0008356 = 0.1161 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57618976-83/kickstarter-hacked-user-data-stolen/

ozbot: Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen | Security & Privacy - CNET News

Bugpowder: old

mircea_popescu: lol how old is it ?

Bugpowder: at least 4 hours

mircea_popescu: derp.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083588 = 0.2508 BTC [+]

cads: Since when the fuck does bitcoin have fucking transaction fucking MALLEABILITY?!

Jere_Jones: This url should be spouted here more often: http://assass.headfucking.net/ 'Tis fucking awesome.

Bugpowder: cads: at least 4 hours

cads: Wow!

copumpkin: cads: it's been known since 2011

mircea_popescu: cads like 2009 dood

copumpkin: it isn't really all that much of a problem

copumpkin: if you're aware of it, which it turns out nobody was

mircea_popescu: who the hell wasn't srsly.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.000836 = 0.2508 BTC [+]

copumpkin: all the major exchanges and the "official" bitcoin-qt client :P

mircea_popescu: i think it was a topic of discussion at least monthly.

copumpkin: well, they all failed at it in some way or another

mircea_popescu: in this sense security qualifies.

copumpkin: anyway, it wasn't a threat of loss of bitcoins

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 261 @ 0.0008375 = 0.2186 BTC [+]

copumpkin: unless you layer additional stupidity on top of it

copumpkin: which mtgox apparently did

mircea_popescu: or so they say.

benkay: copumpkin: do you write in public anywhere?

copumpkin: I tweet occasionally

copumpkin: why?

mircea_popescu: because he likes you and would like to get to know you better.

mircea_popescu: in a more intimate manner.

cads: secsooally

mircea_popescu: no homo.

mircea_popescu: benkay you know he's the asshole who stole my bentley and gave it to a bunch of kids from like poor countries in india or some shit, and in exchange they hacked a bunch of iphones for him

mircea_popescu: or nokias or whatever it was.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 1000 @ 0.0055 = 5.5 BTC

cads: "While transactions are signed, the signature does not currently cover all the data in a transaction that is hashed to create the transaction hash. "

cads: Wut.

mircea_popescu: cause meta.

BingoBoingo: Doesn't he also keep a bunch of tomatoes prisoner or am I confused.

mircea_popescu: no that's copineaple.

mircea_popescu: no relation.

copumpkin: :)

benkay: bwaaaaat

cads: mircea_popescu: I'm going to investigate the excuse don't worry :D

benkay: anyways, this malleability thing as mentioned above is not really a flaw, cads.

mircea_popescu: it's a feature!

benkay: the flaw is in people using the txid as a bookkeeping device which satoshi explicitly warned against iirc

pankkake: apparently there are easy improvements http://blog.oleganza.com/

mircea_popescu: like tits, they get cold and flop arouind and your nipples hurt and everything,

copumpkin: it's not ideal and the devs are trying to adjust it

mircea_popescu: but they're defo not a flaw.

mircea_popescu: benkay yeah he did.

mircea_popescu: course he did because block reorgs iirc.

benkay: prezactly.

copumpkin: so, on a more important note

copumpkin: cloud atlas.

copumpkin: worth watching or not?

copumpkin: I like the soundtrack

cads: who composes?

mircea_popescu: watch it abd blog about the experience, i never saw it.

BingoBoingo: Anyways, the problem in Gox's case is they kept leading zeros in their signatures. Everyone else was like STFU that's dumb. Eventually some nodes started correcting this mistake.

mircea_popescu: ^ that'd be acurate.

mircea_popescu: mtgox was at least 5 times told to stop with the idiocy.

BingoBoingo: Cutting those zeros changed the txid though.

cads: copumpkin: You've got me piqued on the soundtrack

mircea_popescu: but apparently the php lolcat interpreter adds leading 0's to O RLY?/OIC blocks or something

copumpkin: cads: it's pretty good

cads: if a soundtrack is good I usually watch the movie

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well so far it is at least two mistakes on Gox's part leading zeros and txid as database primary key.

mircea_popescu: i dun buy it.

BingoBoingo: Well, then there is the third mistake, scam.

asciilifeform: re: tx issue: this is reminiscent of microshit's EXE signing. where you can append whatever to the signed turd and it still passes checksum.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 391 @ 0.00043898 = 0.1716 BTC [+] {2}

BingoBoingo: Mark's face is shaped in such a way, I imagine, he imagines he can just hug away the scam.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 599 @ 0.00043899 = 0.263 BTC [+] {3}

cads: copumpkin: you're right, this is good

copumpkin: I'm a big fan of the tune in sonmi-451 meets chang, and the various times it recurs throughout the rest of the soundtrack

copumpkin: it picks up about halfway through

Bugpowder: Mark : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stay_Puft_Marshmallow_Man

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the diference here being of course that you're not expected to run the whole turd

mircea_popescu: just the signed part.

Bugpowder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stay-puft-marshmallow-man.jpg

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right. you arrange to have the turd jumped to after sig check.

mircea_popescu: well yeah in ashell environment. not quite that much flexibility in bitcoin scrupting

mircea_popescu: one thing i can't for the fucking life of me understand is why on earth has nobody made an actual competing implementation.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: there are > 450964509860954 copy/paste alt coins

mircea_popescu: yet nobody went "ok, the ideas are quite clear, let's do this then"

asciilifeform: copy/paste vs. actual thinking.

mircea_popescu: there are 5k universities proposing they have cs departments, which is a fraud

asciilifeform: as described by herr mold.

mircea_popescu: as in a sane world no uni with a cs department could have done anything else in 2013 as a term paper

Bugpowder: man, gox back down to where it started... what a derp

mircea_popescu: than "make a bitcoin implementation"

asciilifeform: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html

ozbot: Unqualified Reservations: What's wrong with CS research

mircea_popescu: forget research even you know ?

benkay: mircea_popescu: it's a goddamn shame that everyone's leaving it to the self-taught hacks

mircea_popescu: this'd have been anyone's term project if i were teaching.

mircea_popescu: benkay ikr?

benkay: mircea_popescu: cs departments are for research. mechanical and ee departments are apparently where you learn to actually weld shit together.

cads: shame and opportunity

Bugpowder: How to blow 1000BTC in under 5 minutes.

mircea_popescu: and i seriously do not understand what a rector must be thinking to not close down their cs department after this

cads: how fitting

copumpkin: not sure I'd say it was blown, Bugpowder

mircea_popescu: "what, you have not implemented bitcoin as a term project ? you're defunded. 100%"

benkay: yup.

asciilifeform: can't speak for other unis, the cs dept. i studied in was a vacuum cleaner for slurping up DOD moneys

mircea_popescu: fucking bs.

asciilifeform: that is its primary function, with the students as an afterthought (read: source of cheap labour)

benkay: most us unis i've been to are similarly oriented around hoovering up research + dod monies asciilifeform

mircea_popescu: we're fortunate to live in a world where nobody has any clear measuring stick to be able to measure exactly how tall the pile of shameful excrement they find themselves under is.

mircea_popescu: so they can go around pretending like they're things they could never be.

asciilifeform: perhaps vaccum cleaner is the wrong picture. more of an idiot with mouth open, catching raindrops.

mircea_popescu: "humanities" "professors" that have no idea what a college is and can not speak latin,

mircea_popescu: cs professors who failed to have the kids implement bitcoin in 2013

mircea_popescu: all the unspeakable depth of pitecantropic refuse

asciilifeform: give it another decade... we implemented 'sed'.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe i'm blinded by zeal but seems to me sed is actually harder.

asciilifeform: 'yesterday's nobel prize is tomorrow's homework'

asciilifeform: sed is arguably harder.

cads: I'd love to see a haskell or agda implementation

mircea_popescu: bitcoin once explained by satoshi is not actually hard in any sense

asciilifeform: and is 'politically' safe.

mircea_popescu: merely gotta do the work.

mircea_popescu: which is what cs depts are for.

asciilifeform: implementing btc would be a little like having the mech eng. students build a working howitzer.

mircea_popescu: so ?

benkay: hah

mircea_popescu: i definitely would.

asciilifeform: arguably imperative, but we live in bizarroworld

benkay: more like a potato gun

mircea_popescu: da fuck mech engineer you are can't build a hovitzer

benkay: u want shells too sir?

jayk: hmmm

asciilifeform: obligatory link to the MIT lamp video!

mircea_popescu: benkay you don't have to make the shells actually do anything you know ?

asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ

ozbot: MIT graduates cannot power a light bulb with a battery. - YouTube

mircea_popescu: a howitzer can fire blanks on the football field just fine

asciilifeform: correct.

benkay: sure but then you're not really putting the barrel through its paces are you?

mircea_popescu: or for that matter make it fire solid metal ordnance.

asciilifeform: (i once discovered that my uni used to have a rifle range. gone.)

mircea_popescu: at a wall or stack of sand bags or w/e

cads: mircea_popescu: sell some Coq nerds on the importance of implementing a formally verified blockchain algorithm and further specialization to a btc implementation :)

MisterE_: asciilifeform: is right, education is a business before all esle

mircea_popescu: cads know any ?

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Most Land Grants had them back in the day.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00087607 = 12.1774 BTC [+] {2}

asciilifeform: it's hilarious. they have people 'formally verify' DRM crud.

asciilifeform: glass bead game.

mircea_popescu: apparently pitecantropic is not an english word. odd.

cads: mircea_popescu: just acquaintances on irc.

mircea_popescu: anyway, reference to the "java man"

mircea_popescu: cads so send them over.

asciilifeform: try 'pithecantropic' ?

mircea_popescu: a ok

mircea_popescu: pithecanthropus

cads: oh, key, copumpkin is also a #coq regular

mircea_popescu: o ya definitely likes the c0q

copumpkin: cads: we've spoken in all sorts of different places :P

asciilifeform: re: c0qlovers and proof-of-whatever: a particularly egregious case of glass bead game.

asciilifeform: (as discussed in a turd of mine, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 and elsewhere)

benkay: glass bead game?

asciilifeform: attempts at 'transitioning from the informal to the formal by formal means'.

cads: asciilifeform: it's always been one great misgiving of mine whenever I read papers on large formally verified software projects

asciilifeform: (see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390&cpage=1#comment-8475)

cads: for example UC's Quark verified browser kernel or the NICTA's l4.verified project.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 797 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1976 BTC [+]

benkay: cads: what kind of factory worker reads about formal verification of large software projects?!

asciilifeform: the whole 'automated proofs' business is fundamentally turdalicious

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean as a hesse reference ?

asciilifeform: yes

cads: I appreciate that we can create a kernel of security properties and then prove it about our access control model, and then build the system on that.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 703 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1743 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: it is an attempt to hide head in the sand, escape from the fact that the only way to guarantee expected function is: actual understanding

asciilifeform: by actual brains

benkay: you mean brians

asciilifeform: and this requires a 'bonfire of the' complexity.

cads: And I appreciate that this makes it /easier/ to avoid bugs - the only place a bug can now live is in the security properties you prove about your access model.

cads: And that's the part that hits my stomach with dread.

mircea_popescu: right

mircea_popescu: you can now have no bugs except that sort of bugs you'll never find

cads: Since /those/ bugs are embedded in philosophy

mircea_popescu: right

asciilifeform: or something as mundane as the hardware.

cads: But I'm optimistic since we can study the theory of what should constitute a correct and effective security property

asciilifeform: the entire field, giving its history and monetary incentives, is a poisonous offering.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 10 @ 0.02579995 = 0.258 BTC [-]

cads: It does feel like you're concentrating the bugs into a very rare and amazingly lucrative bug class

assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: we aren't seeing proof in the mathematical sense. only (apologies to bush the lesser) - 'proofiness.'

asciilifeform: the idea that bugs are being banished anywhere by this obscurantist crap is nonsense.

asciilifeform: example, for the thick:

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00087836 = 10.2768 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: 'ECC' memory is largely absent from consumer turdware. i wait for the box running your 'proofy' crap to be hit by cosmic ray.

cads: hmm, the verified software I've read about uses security properties which are proven via a formal proof assistant in a standard logic.

asciilifeform: suddenly not so verified any more.

asciilifeform: go ahead, prove anything useful about an x86 box where an arbitrary bit might flip.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 16 @ 0.06899996 = 1.104 BTC [+] {3}

asciilifeform: (if cosmic rays are insufficient, someone might be so kind as to pump some ionizing strange through your server. or merely turn up the thermostat in the cage. etc.)

cads: fair enough, then even the most correct formally proven software should expect some faults due to underlying hardware.

cads: hm

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06899998 = 0.414 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: derp.

asciilifeform: of course, no need for such shenanigans if the box is already built of 'cooperative' iron.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06999998 = 0.7 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your dream of software that's unauditable by the user is getting closer and closer huh

asciilifeform: eh, it might as well be already

cads: asciilifeform: that brings us to study methods of invalidating the security properties by changing aspects of the substrate system that the security properties gloss over or assume by fiat.

cads: neat

asciilifeform: garden variety winblows box could busy a thousand auditors for a thousand years.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06999999 = 0.35 BTC [+]

cads: We can always dream about strong encryption for state machine dynamics.

cads: Which could give us some padding between the software agent and untrusted underlying hardware.

asciilifeform: cads: exists (provably not in the general case, but for many particular cases, sure)

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14385 @ 0.00087519 = 12.5896 BTC [-]

cads: right, currently it's amazingly inefficient and not general, and I also believe there are unfortunate theoretical limits to the power of any such approach

assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

asciilifeform: problem is (well, depending on how you look), the consumer is to be on the 'wrong end of the barrel' for this one.

cads: how so?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 68 @ 0.07 = 4.76 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: cads: look who is working on this, and why. or do i have to draw a picture.

cads: you may have to excuse my ignorance of the commercial or political side of this work

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00297 = 0.1069 BTC [+]

cads: I came up with the idea of encrypted computing when I was thinking how to design an autonomous AI agent that cannot ever have its state vector interrogated or partially simulated.

asciilifeform: turdware vendors are mightily annoyed that the occasional consumer, 'smarter than average rabbit', pries open and exposes their turdwork.

mircea_popescu: <cads> neat << good point actually.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3900 @ 0.00087843 = 3.4259 BTC [+] {2}

cads: So that if an adversary has captured the state vector they can only continue to simulate it faithfully

mircea_popescu: now that'd be interesting.

mircea_popescu: i'd like a mpex like thatr.

asciilifeform: cads: i reinvented the concept, as probably just about every maths student has, when first reading about Paillier's Addition and thinking 'what if you glue this to OISC - 'jump if zero' - machine.

cads: wow, nice

asciilifeform: no heroic feat here.

cads: right, I guess to jump from homomorphic encryption to obfuscated computation is a natural one.

asciilifeform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paillier_cryptosystem

ozbot: Paillier cryptosystem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

asciilifeform: and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer

asciilifeform: one neglected aspect of homomorphic turdcraft (let's assume that it were possible and practical in some general-'enough' case! for the sake of argument) is:

asciilifeform: unless you are carrying out the compilation with paper and pencil,

asciilifeform: you are forever doomed to trust the mechanism whereby you generated the cryptoturd.

cads: okay, so in our Paillier OISC we'd use subtract and branch of != 0, or subtract and branch if <= 0.

asciilifeform: because the result can never be verified.

asciilifeform: (verified to do what you intended it to.)

cads: Only with pallier operations

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.005498 = 0.2749 BTC [+]

cads: wait how do we implement the order relation on the ciphertext version of the data

asciilifeform: cads: not so simple. you can't have the machine actually branch in any obvious sense

asciilifeform: or an observer could deduce logic

cads: right that would surely give the game away for most things

asciilifeform: incidentally

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [-]

asciilifeform: wiki used to have a page on 'joseki' (not to be confused with the Go players' term)

Mats_cd03: Complicated technical gibbering, mundane, cryptodongs, etc

asciilifeform: nsa cryptosystem, circa 1980s. implied to function on this principle.

asciilifeform: page was zapped some time ago.

asciilifeform: (it was used in military firmware)

cads: http://cryptography.wikia.com/wiki/JOSEKI_%28cipher%29

ozbot: JOSEKI (cipher) - Crypto Wiki

asciilifeform: something like that

asciilifeform: if i recall

asciilifeform: maybe it was just my imagination.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00087767 = 18.7821 BTC [-]

benkay: http://brooklyn-dentists.com/wp-content/bitcoin-code/emacs-bitcoin.php

Mats_cd03: Big words followed by math things

asciilifeform: shannonizer?

asciilifeform: somebody ought to stoke one with this channel log.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19148 @ 0.00087854 = 16.8223 BTC [+]

benkay: amen

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19099 @ 0.0008787 = 16.7823 BTC [+] {2}

asciilifeform: and now for something completely different:

asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/02/american-exceptionalism.html

ozbot: ClubOrlov: “American” exceptionalism

Mats_cd03: i belieb in american exceptionalism

benkay: Mats_cd03: are you on cocaine?

Mats_cd03: im high on life nigga

benkay: hm

mircea_popescu: lmao! so very different

benkay: well i bleed american capitalism

mircea_popescu: ;;google trilema exceptionalismul personal

gribble: No matches found.

benkay: the old kind

mircea_popescu: eh gtfo google.

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/exceptionalismul-personal/

ozbot: Exceptionalismul personal pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

mircea_popescu: i do not make the mistake of positing it's romanian!

mircea_popescu: it's just stupiditarian.

Mats_cd03: american capitalism smells like fast food grease and dick cheese

Mats_cd03: not recommended for date night

benkay: these days certainly.

benkay: once upon a time it smelled like blood and money.

asciilifeform: if you're exceptionally lucky, it smells like the hangar where howard hughes farted in '72.

asciilifeform: but if you want a better smell, you'll need a time machine.

benkay: yeah. people were cool once.

Mats_cd03: i watched the aviator so yeah i can pretend like i know what youre talking about

TestingUnoDosTre: lies. when was that?

benkay: 1806-1859.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68300 @ 0.00087502 = 59.7639 BTC [-] {4}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16252 @ 0.00087481 = 14.2174 BTC [-]

cads: hmm

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.002973 = 0.446 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: people were cool from circa 1600 to about ww1.

mircea_popescu: then orwell's bugmen took over.

benkay: orwell's responsible for modern socialism?

asciilifeform: mr. o blamed the telegraph

mircea_popescu: no, but he described the type.

asciilifeform: (bugmen like central admin.)

cads: so joseki is a two part encryption decryption function E, D such that in some sense "the encryption algorithm is not the same as, and cannot be deduced from, the decryption algorithm."

mircea_popescu: makes this observation how the only sort of people who seem to trive in his dystopia are bug-like

mircea_popescu: short stubbly crab-like in movements etc.

benkay: ;;calc 59.7639 + 14.2174

gribble: 73.9813

cads: You can decrypt the existing operating system.

cads: To do that you read the bootstrap key.

cads: But once doing that, say you want to alter the code. You can't do that.

cads: For you cannot re-encrypt the code.

asciilifeform: implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code.

cads: there's a million ways to subvert either

cads: just burn some of the traces on the bootstrap chip and suddenly it loads your unencrypted code just fine

asciilifeform: "On the far side of the room, sitting at a table alone, a small, curiously beetle-like man was drinking a cup of coffee, his little eyes darting suspicious glances from side to side. How easy it was, thought Winston, if you did not look about you, to believe that the physical type set up by the Party as an ideal-tall muscular youths and deep-bosomed maidens, blond-haired, vital, sunburnt, carefree - existed and

asciilifeform: even predominated. Actually, so far as he could judge, the majority of people in Airstrip One were small, dark, and ill-favoured. It was curious how that beetle-like type proliferated in the Ministries: little dumpy men, growing stout very early in life, with short legs, swift scuttling movements, and fat inscrutable faces with very small eyes. It was the type that seemed to flourish best under the dominion of

asciilifeform: the Party."

asciilifeform: ('1984')

mircea_popescu: ty.

cads: ... assuming you have a scanning tunneling electron microscope lying around.

mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code. << fwiw i don't believe it does or could.

asciilifeform: cads: J. was devised for some unknown, godforsaken 1980s silicon. perhaps it sat the decryptor between the memory bus and cpu proper

Jere_Jones: How does an exchange that implements stop losses prevent a large order from crashing the market? If a large order comes in and wipes out the orderbook past serveral stop losses, those sells get executed after the large order right? They don't get interwoven with the large order? Interwoven seems harder to do and/or incorrect and/or unethical. That means that a stop loss can't actually

Jere_Jones: stop a loss if the market is relatively shallow. Am I misunderstanding something?

mircea_popescu: stop losses are usually offered as a best-effort thing, not as a guarantee

mircea_popescu: even in serious markets.

benkay: is there a ranking of purely crypto exchanges by vol?

Jere_Jones: And they do get executed after the order that dropped the price? Not interwoven?

mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "interwoven"

mircea_popescu: that's why blocks are blocks.

Jere_Jones: Didn't think so. Thanks.

mircea_popescu: course, god knows what btc webmasters do.

mircea_popescu: but if you "interwoven" on nyse the sec will put your head on a pike on columbus ave.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: angels/pinhead, etc. one could easily picture something clever (block cipher allowing direct execution of crypted instructions, without an intermediate buffer for mass decrypt) or something foolish.

Jere_Jones: That sounds less than pleasant.

asciilifeform: we'll know when an american Mitrohin or Rezun lifts the specs.

cads: asciilifeform: in that case couldn't we say the same of hashing? Although I admit. Putting the decryptor somewhere in the main flow of the system has panache, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar approach hashing is a lot less natural.

benkay: ;;calc 74*600

gribble: 44400

asciilifeform: cads: idea probably was, you'd like to block-cipher the blob, but don't want to send a symmetric key (however contained) into the field.

cads: right

asciilifeform: so you want something opposite to 'rsa'

asciilifeform: (where 'anyone enciphers, only one reads')

asciilifeform: exercise for alert reader!

cads: ;)

asciilifeform: deduce a working 'joseki'-like cryptosystem.

asciilifeform: (undergrad level problem.)

benkay: dang asciilifeform you're a taskmaster

asciilifeform: not like this is hard or anything.

benkay: well hey some of us are unversed. you have depth in it.

cads: asciilifeform: I'm confused as to the sense in which the encryption algorithm cannot be derived from the encryption algorithm

asciilifeform: decryption?

cads: righ

cads: is this to say the encryption _key_, can not be derived from the decryption key?

asciilifeform: not so hard.

asciilifeform: you have turds of a certain number-theoretical variety, that turn into plaintext when subjected to function F. F(turd) = plain. but you don't know F'(plain) = turd.

cads: typically the decryption key allows us to derive the encryption key via number theoretic properties

asciilifeform: cads: with some 'hardness assumption' in the way of practically accomplishing this, yes.

asciilifeform: but one could conceive of F' being the key itself

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34563 @ 0.0008694 = 30.0491 BTC [-] {2}

asciilifeform: bureaucrats probably came in their pants, they hate the chore of key distribution, etc

cads: oh hey

cads: anyone wanna see women cumming while reading books?

cads: like, actual passages of cool literature like clockwork orange, sitting fully dressed at a table, while something undeniable is going on /under/ the table

asciilifeform: old hat.

cads: ah, saw it already?

cads: http://hystericalliterature.com/stoya/

cads: I thought it was really cute

cads: I liked the essays too

cads: I felt a bit too vouyeristic while watching to watch all of them, but it was enjoyable

mircea_popescu: sooo, anyone know a native chinese speaker ?

asciilifeform: sure.

asciilifeform: why

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29113 @ 0.00086896 = 25.298 BTC [-] {2}

mircea_popescu: because we have no resident chinese expert.

mircea_popescu: who ?

asciilifeform: colleague

mircea_popescu: so get him to come over!

asciilifeform: i'll poke him when i visit him on tuesday.

mircea_popescu: coolness.

asciilifeform: benkay: under no circumstances should i be confused with an actual expert on crypto

asciilifeform: but the practical application of the known building blocks is quite trivial.

asciilifeform: (somewhat less trivial if you want actual security, rather than a passing exam score, however)

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 15 @ 0.19376446 = 2.9065 BTC [+]

cads: anyways - asciilifeform I understand that. Ie, say we have two functions F and G such that G(F(x)) = x and F(x) is in some sense independent of x. Then (F, G) is a basic kind of cryptosystem, where F is the encryption function and G is the decryption function. For us not to be able to derive F from G, G must be infeasible to invert. I believe F can be encryption with a public key (which in this case the designer will keep public),

cads: and G is decryption with the corresponding private key (which is included on the chip). It's a bit of an inversion of control of the intention of public key systems but it works for our purpose.

cads: The only detail I am not sure is about the private -> public derivability of the keys.

cads: I know bitcoin's scheme allows us to derive a public key from the private one, and that this is actually not typical.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00087169 = 4.1841 BTC [+]

cads: asciilifeform: you say that we want the 'opposite' of rsa (public decrypt, private encrypt), but... this is just the same as giving the public the private key and keeping the public one secret.

benkay: thanks for that cads. babe and i just watched stoya's. a+

cads: wasn't it /amazing/?!

assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

benkay: of course the woman's response is "i hate the essay!"

benkay: wtf not the point

benkay: maybe the point

benkay: everything's part of the point i suppose

cads: I liked stoya's own account

asciilifeform: cads: nope.

asciilifeform: having private P,Q you can P*Q and get public.

asciilifeform: what kind of exercise would this be if the answer involved only this.

mircea_popescu: benkay stoya, the whore ?!

benkay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ZL8HXbHQo

ozbot: This Empty Love - InnerPartySystem - YouTube

mircea_popescu: aok

cads: mircea_popescu: you must watch this: http://hystericalliterature.com/stoya/

cads: "Hysterical Literature is a video art series by NYC-based photographer and filmmaker Clayton Cubitt. It explores feminism, mind/body dualism, distraction portraiture, and the contrast between culture and sexuality. (It's also just really fun to watch.) "

mircea_popescu: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9fgmrL08p1qdleaio1_500.gif

mircea_popescu: the other stoya.

cads: I'm questioning the feminist merit if only because I still enjoyed the work with a very male gaze :D

benkay: maybe the same stoya?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1191 @ 0.002973 = 3.5408 BTC [+]

cads: no, absolutely the same stoya

benkay: mircea_popescu: you're missing out on all sorts of context not at least sampling videos

mircea_popescu: i'll live

mircea_popescu: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbw3j2tj2f1rqgfmbo1_500.gif

cads: mircea_popescu: the idea is that an unpaid woman sits at a table and opens up a famous literary work she chose, begins to read a key passage, starts having and orgasm, continues trying to read, climaxes, and then closes the book and says "I'm ____ and this has been moby dick"

mircea_popescu: i'd guess about 35% of adult females can actually orgasm in the situation described.

mircea_popescu: but! that said orgasm distraction is certanly a fun game.

cads: Unseen under the table the photographer's lovely assistant is working away with the apparently supernaturally effect hitachi vibrator.

benkay: !t h rent

assbot: [HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (1164 shares, 6.40200000 BTC), 7D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (12577 shares, 69.17350000 BTC), 30D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (32202 shares, 177.11100000 BTC)

mircea_popescu: even so.

cads: right

cads: it takes dedication to do that

cads: The first volunteer is stoya the porn star

benkay: btw that mpex trade, like 74 btc?

benkay: just about a third of the rentalstarter ipo.

cads: we know she knows how to cum

asciilifeform: they make remote-controlled instruments for this kind of work.

mircea_popescu: she fakes it lots of times you know

cads: but the other volunteers are women that work in the arts

asciilifeform: wireless.

cads: one of the women is a museum curator

asciilifeform: long gone are the days when a bottle of bees was the state of the art.

cads: and in their essays it's clear they feel they are helping make sexuality a less dirty, less manipulated thing

mircea_popescu: i wonder if giving these chicks a book and asking them to read is a legit pick-up now.

benkay: bahaha

benkay: oh you

mircea_popescu: "hello"

mircea_popescu: "hi ?"

mircea_popescu: "i saw you on the internet. so here's le diable et le bon dieu, read for me."

cads: ah, the other thing

cads: despite being arguably non-pornographic (hosted, as it was, on youtube), the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views

mircea_popescu: that matters.

cads: mixed reviews from the critics alternately called it an awesome work of feminism and art, or skeptically denounced it as 'porn, not art'.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06941006 = 0.1388 BTC [-]

asciilifeform: russian sf author / madman viktor pelevin had a piece where, in the Dark Future (tm) all other types of porn vanish, and only this remains

asciilifeform: ending up called 'DERP', or 'derivative porn'

asciilifeform: age of consent raised to 46, so all ordinary porn is forbidden

asciilifeform: and so what remains is 'porn' with films of the censor's faces

asciilifeform: viewing the forbidden.

cads: wait were the faces edited over the actors'

mircea_popescu: cads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBlgSz8sSM << 660mn views.

asciilifeform: people then frequent quasi-illicit Derp viewings.

mircea_popescu: i could continue but w/e.

cads: mircea_popescu: Bahaha.

cads: I'll leave it up to you to decide what type of logical fallacy you made by throwing Charlie Bit My Finger against the work of a singe avant garde fetish photographer. :D

asciilifeform: cads: in the tale? nope. just censors viewing That Which Is To Be Deleted

asciilifeform: and grimacing suggestively

asciilifeform: at least, as i recall.

mircea_popescu: cads no, you did. "the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views"

mircea_popescu: i merely showed how that idiocy reduces to the absurd.

cads: An average of 2 million views per video is an impressive metric for an internet personality.

mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as a "view" and consequently nohing there to count.

asciilifeform: recently saw a winblows trojan turd which loaded some unknown porn vid

mircea_popescu: and hence nothing impressive in it.

asciilifeform: (primitive 'click fraud')

cads: mircea_popescu is not impressed, guys

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]

cads: For the agents in an attention economy, those are important metrics.

mircea_popescu: nono, i'm impressed, deeply, just, there's nothing there to be impressive k ?

mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as an attention econonmy.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 8 @ 0.06941006 = 0.5553 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 15 @ 0.0694 = 1.041 BTC [-] {2}

cads: Okay, so lets start at the bottom. The claim there are no youtube views. Youtube clearly provides analytics on the number of visitors to a page. So are we saying these numbers are fabricated by youtube or third part 'view providers? Or that youtube views don't actually record how much attention someone payed to a video, whether they really watched it, etc.

mircea_popescu: cads i can make a webpage publishing arbitrary numbers.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 13 @ 0.0694 = 0.9022 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: in fact back in the lycos/infoseek/geocities days most everyone did.

cads: In the second and first cases I would point out that marketing companies trust view statistics.

cads: So people pay for views and they're real.

mircea_popescu: marketing companies do not trust view statisticsa,

mircea_popescu: they simply use that particular bezzle to defraud whoever's so inclined.

mircea_popescu: there's nothing particularly wrong with being a fraudster, i guess, until you end up believing your own crap.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: all this aside : putting "views" next to a number does not transform the number into a measure

asciilifeform: cads: pick up one of google's '$100 off' coupons and see for yourself what it is the chumps pay for

cads: right, we must trust the entity measuring the views and the method of measuring them.

mircea_popescu: nor are you at liberty to imagine the symbol views denotes whatever definition you may happen to allocate it.

mircea_popescu: first and foremost we must agree these "views" are a thing.

mircea_popescu: you can only measure that which is thing.

cads: okay

cads: so with multiple servers serving the same content it becomes a nontrivial task to syncronize the correct number, first

mircea_popescu: all this dovetails neatly, of course, into our earlier kabbalah discussion,

mircea_popescu: but i would like to add the observation that according to the 1800s crowd, patent medicine was actually useful, actually valuable and actually working.

asciilifeform: for some reason, i can't help but remember the american moneyed idiot who proclaimed that tv watchers who get up to piss during ads are committing fraud.

mircea_popescu: and its forbidding a serious abuse of the state power against individual sovereignity

mircea_popescu: a view which is actulaly getting a slight resurgence these days.

mircea_popescu: (promoted by interested parties, of course, which is to say scammors)

asciilifeform: hell, it actually worked - with opium in every bottle

mircea_popescu: opium provides no health benefits tho

asciilifeform: arguably a better deal than what today's hucksters are pushing, regardless

mircea_popescu: perhaps.

mircea_popescu: very much depends on what you're buying,.

mircea_popescu: much like say, closer to home, silicone.

mircea_popescu: you can get excellent chips

mircea_popescu: or you could get crud.

asciilifeform: can't resist pointing out that, at least on this side of the atlantic, 'silicone' refers exclusively to the type of rubber sold under that name

mircea_popescu: now the people who have no idea about electronics regularly buy whatever someone;s telling them to.

cads: mircea_popescu: at some level I feel you are saying that it absolutely does not matter that people spent an estimated 34 million minutes looking at this single artist's work, if only because we can't trust those estimates at all.

mircea_popescu: a sorry.

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