Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-08-13 | 2018-08-15 → ↓
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !
asciilifeform: 'Hours after Apple announced its move, Mark Zuckerberg and his team at Facebook made the decision to pull four of Jones' pages' etc.
phf: oh this is beautiful, the new "registered only" restriction on channels means that unless your bouncer auto identifies, you get kicked off the channel
phf: ave1: i've updated zfp with regrind and the latest zfp_3_platform
asciilifeform: in other recent lulz, somebody submitted a http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2FF2BB54467E196A58785C82FC6B74E789ACA48679FF310D31DDFDCD0C934C7C . the item in the username corresponds to http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/03C39D10AC31A5845BE14895E18743165B7BA74E71D3D4A0D62710232203DAC3 . but the N of the former does not divide the M of the latter ( dunno whether the submitter thought that it does ? or what specifically he was tryin
asciilifeform: g to accomplish. )
asciilifeform: my best guess is that somebody was testing a (buggy) submitter.
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu specificially switched on +r to cut down on spamola, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839441 thrd
a111: Logged on 2018-08-04 20:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu sets mode +r #trilema << RIP from_xxxx users...
asciilifeform: ( so far -- worked )
asciilifeform: interestingly, #asciilifeform still spam-free despite no +r , evidently the spam folx are using a hardcoded list of chans that dun include it yet
asciilifeform: phf: what were the inputs for the regrind ? seems like i missed something on ave1's www
phf: asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature
asciilifeform: phf: i dun get it, my bouncer worx ( i.e. the user fleanode sees, is registered )
phf: asciilifeform: you bouncer autoidentifies with fleanode then
phf: but that doesn't always work (for fundamental reasons of non-synchronized protocol), so i have it entirely disabled on mine. i'll add it back, but there's going to be an event X sometime in the feature, where both bot and bouncer failed to come back, resulting in log break. with previous configuration that was less likely
asciilifeform: prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback
asciilifeform: i suspect that fleanode will only get moar broken as time marches on, never less.
phf: nah, makes no difference in this particular situation. you want your thing to come back by any means necessary to continue witnessing. as of now "coming back" is a much more complicated process
asciilifeform: how does it make no diff ? if the logtrons were synced, then if even 1 is alive, the continuity is maintained
phf: asciilifeform: for the scenario i'm describing it makes no difference
phf: yes, for the general reliability it's an improvement.
phf: in the simplest case joining a channel is a send-only process. can theoretically fully ignore what the server is saying and still get a successful join. not so when you have to negotiate with nickserv (at the very least need to time it right, so that you send you privmsg after the connection has been established, which is almost entirely "organic" process)
phf: so +r drops the reliability of all logtrons
asciilifeform: phf: have you found that actual gap already happened somewhere ? ( if it did -- i missed )
phf: yes.
asciilifeform: plox to note where, ftr ?
asciilifeform: ( i.e. can point to material in e.g. ben_vulpes's logtron, that is currently missing from phf 's ?? )
phf: i get it, but i haven't done investigation
asciilifeform: phf: i mean, this is a 'hole in the boat bottom'-level item, so imho oughta show if you find.
phf: well, i've seen lines missing during netsplits, which i suppose is not this critical. i suspect ben_vulpes's logbot doesn't have a fallback mechanism, so when it drops there's the reconnect window, which i suspect i could find one or two with missing one or two lines. ben_vulpes will have to speak for himself though.
asciilifeform: would be handy if the 2 logtrons could at least output raw data that one could diff in cmdline
asciilifeform: ( not even speaking of writable sync )
asciilifeform: then could answer this q mechanically, in about 20 sec
phf: btcbase already does that, internally. i've offered people in the past a feed (since i don't want that service to be abused), but i don't think anyone expressed interest
asciilifeform: a url that one can GET and puts out e.g. last 500kB of raw log, isn't so much moar abusable than the ordinary formatted feed imho
phf: asciilifeform: that's an idle request
asciilifeform: how's that
phf: to close upstack before it gets lost, you need http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-4-introduction-of-the-platform/ and http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind/ the later is a full regrind (which i also didn't notice until btcbase failed to link 4 to rest)
asciilifeform: i suspect it was deedbot hiccup, rather than phf's logtron, in this case
a111: Logged on 2016-04-11 09:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally phf is there a log bundle for download somewhere ?
phf:
asciilifeform: oh neato
asciilifeform: nao lessee if ben_vulpes has one. then can diff.
phf: this follows ye old kako format, in fact the pre-trilema files are kako's
asciilifeform: i expect there'll be spots where a thing is 1 or 2 places out of order ( fleanode does not reliably preserve same-millisecond ordering iirc ) but aside from that oughta be diffable afaik
phf: ...
phf: there's no timestamp information in irc protocol. the time is whenever the client received it
asciilifeform: right, would have to subtract those prior to diff.
phf: also kako's format includes a unique id as the first field, obviously will also need to be removed
asciilifeform: unless i'm thick, after subtracting those 2 fields, can diff.
phf: we've had this conversation long time ago, that irc loging is a purely gossip-like thing. at best you can say that "a111 received this message at such and such time, was claimed to be from X"
asciilifeform: theoretically errybody oughta have seen the same lines tho (even if not always in exact order)
phf: unless there's netsplit
asciilifeform: i do not recall what ben_vulpes does re netsplits
phf: and things become tricky when bot gets kicked off for whatever reason
phf: i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"
asciilifeform: would prolly also need logic to force the 2 to connect via different fleanode boxen etc
phf: i'm pretty sure we had pocket conversations during netsplits, that none of the bots heard
asciilifeform: i'm quite convinced that this happened, and that it explains various cases of 'we DID this but wtf it aint in the logs'
phf: asciilifeform: you missed what i said. whois tells you which server user connects through. to prevent a netsplit scenario, you have to connect to every one of those boxes with at least one bot, but better yet n+1
asciilifeform: ok i get.
phf: asciilifeform is/was on server karatkievich.freenode.net (Montreal, CA), phf is/was on server card.freenode.net (Washington, DC, US) etc.
asciilifeform: iirc mine is still set to rotate through a couple
asciilifeform: but yes
asciilifeform: ( my fiber here bumps 1ce or 2ce / yr, so in practice there's very little rotation on my end )
phf: i mean, your bots gotta exist in a distributed pool, each does a whois on join, negotiates a spawn of a new bot if there's an untracked connection. of course this is an unreasonable amount of engineering for a logbot
asciilifeform: phf: approx similar to the sweat reqd to build own fleanode, aha
phf: own freenode comes with a neat feature of logger on relay
phf: and you start getting freenode/gossip overlaps, e.g. each l1 could run own fleanode, connect server-to-server, etc.
trinque figures there's some phrase in russian that means roughly "complexity accumulated in bureau A because not permitted/unwilling to change how bureau B works"
asciilifeform: my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.
asciilifeform: trinque: that's more or less ~all~ software complexities.
trinque: sure is.
asciilifeform: iron, too.
asciilifeform: 'these here 15,000 transistors are because we gotta talk to pci bus' etc
asciilifeform: yer comp consists ~99++% by weight of this bureaucracy.
asciilifeform: this is sorta why e.g. FUCKGOATS runs on 40 milliwatt ( of which 95% are lost as heat in the 10x-margined analogue pwr filtration in the daughterboards) whereas pc burns 100watt if were doing same work, etc
phf: trinque: nothing comes to mind, though i'm sure there's gotta be something in 70s su phrase book. we gotta ask rotakus though, that seems more of their thing (plus they would've had much better luck saying stuff like that, might've been too close to home in SU)
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/08/joe-stacking-takes-off-with-2-incidents-in-recent-days/ << Qntra - Joe Stacking Takes Off With 2 Incidents In Recent Days
mircea_popescu has wiped the windows10 off a hp "envy". jesus fuck, anyone had ANY FUCKING IDEA just how many times you gotta reboot and bless the box to get through the lock microshit put on the boot process ?!
mircea_popescu: there's like three intermediate states, progress by degrees.
asciilifeform: oh hah the 'secure boot' lulz
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at least you found box where it ~has~ the off switch
asciilifeform: increasingly they dun have one at all
mircea_popescu: i didn't search, just what happened ot pick up.
mircea_popescu: i was about to take screwdrivers to it tbh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but as far as it was concerned, i suspect it also "didn't have" the switch. you should see wtf windows has morphed into, jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: do you realise it literally spams you with advertisements during usage ?
mircea_popescu: "hey, it seems like you're copying a lot of files, would you like to buy this or that ?"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the new biosen are lulzy also, often they have tcp stack nao, and read file system , and even show spam in the setup
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY like shitty cellphone service, "hey, you just placed a call, we'll send spam sms 10 minutes later, so you think it's the op and look"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, the "setup" page consisted of, i kid you not, 20 word "descriptions" of the various items and links to "read more" ie ON THE FUCKING WEB. no knobs.
mircea_popescu: it was an eye widening experience for yours, truly.
asciilifeform: re screwdriver, typically with newer shitboxen there is nothing even to do inside, only win from taking it apart is to help fit into rubbish bin
mircea_popescu: but anyway, let the record reflect i did do it. and THEN had to conjure up wireless driver, because holy shit it comes with an unknown pos atop the realtek.
asciilifeform: ( e.g. in the sad saga of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 )
mircea_popescu: first time ever i had to compile wireless drivers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at this point this is a decade-long pestilence, even asciilifeform's x60 (circa 2009, iirc) terraforming recipe includes patching bios to permit hand-installed nic to work , followed by installation of same
asciilifeform: ( mine eneded up with an atheros card iirc )
mircea_popescu: precisely. wtf is that ?!
asciilifeform: they tend to include intel's , for which to this day no driver
mircea_popescu: item has intel sound, haven't bothered with.
asciilifeform: why even sound on a lappy, lol
asciilifeform: but intel's soundcard is unremarkable iirc and worx even in 2.4 kernel
a111: Logged on 2016-03-03 20:46 asciilifeform: i eventually put back the heathen bios on the x60, BUT i ida'd it and nop'd out the imbecile nic whitelist
mircea_popescu: i dunno, to watch ashley lane walk around town ?
asciilifeform: i guess i have simple tastes , dun particularly need to hear the cuntlips schlick
mircea_popescu: item is actually very pleasant, from a purely visual perspective. stupid-ish kbd, but large and light. fits perfectly on ass of girl holding her ankless so you can hurt her asshole while you lovingly kiss another.
mircea_popescu: assemblage can be drastically improved by placing laptop atop her ass, playing publicdisgrace.com. bring the light of the great urban outdoors in the dank of the cellar.
asciilifeform: this isn't same box as had the sad backlight is it
asciilifeform: ( iirc that one was also a fiorina creation )
mircea_popescu: recent item, made last year or such.
BingoBoingo: Ah, a long tale of the new recruit's lappy
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it will please you to know your name having been mentioned in passing in aside conversation, it proved remarkably enough to now denote the evil of internet boys among the new recruits.
mircea_popescu: THEYRE GONNA FUCKING SHOW YOU!
diana_coman: ahahah, kid peeked in and red "bongo!"
diana_coman: so yes, it catches the eye
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo who do you think you are, anyways!
diana_coman: re laptop, I can say I carry around one that still has the windowssomething label, what of it
mircea_popescu: diana_coman what do you mean label ?
diana_coman: some sticker?
asciilifeform: the little sticker ?
asciilifeform: i like to put'em on public toilets
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes!
mircea_popescu: sooo... ? what about it ? lol
diana_coman: eh, it is a sort of public toilet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, re tastes, you've not seen any of this "interview" bs. it's fucking comedy central, watching solo/girl-girl models talk to each other.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, it has otherwise gentoo, no problem
diana_coman: no windows boot or whatevers
mircea_popescu: diana_coman did it also have the "uefi" bs ?
asciilifeform: afaik x60 was the ~last lappy without uefiism
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I think it did but by now I don't even remember for sure re this particular one
asciilifeform: ( ftr, in addition to the many other 'wonders', uefi-infected bios will search erry disk for ms-signed turds and execute'em on boot, erry single time )
mircea_popescu: well this is the core of my point! holy shit you sheltered existences, you have nfi what it's even like, out there!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i know, had to format. let it read ext4, wut.
diana_coman: and at any rate gentoo is only last linux installed, being as it is a public toilet iron of sorts, it got at different points in its life everything on
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dun fughet to nuke the 'ata hidden partitions' nonsense
BingoBoingo: AH, that's why it still has the sticker
asciilifeform: ( typically needs magic code sent via the sata )
mircea_popescu: ima have to check that.
asciilifeform: hdparm -N /dev/sdx
asciilifeform: will show sumthing like max sectors = 78125000/78165360, HPA is enabled if it's there.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841285 << the sorta shit tim cook has time during weekend for.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 15:01 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 16:49 phf: oh this is beautiful, the new "registered only" restriction on channels means that unless your bouncer auto identifies, you get kicked off the channel
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure it's ~all~ he got time for. well, possibly aside from buggery, and from deciding which connectors and keyboard keys to remove from crapple product next
mircea_popescu: "what do you think of elon musk ? i mean, his ideas ?" "what fucking ideas ?"
asciilifeform: lol ideas
trinque: that "touch bar" thing is the saddest shit. they literally put the stupid watch they made in the laptop.
mircea_popescu: trinque hopefully they put a laptop in the watch next.
trinque: progress!!
asciilifeform: trinque: i can only assume that 'make emacs unrunnable on this' was specific objective
mircea_popescu: end up with a programmable hardware inclusion list on which to run a php ftp emulator.
asciilifeform: trinque: difficult to picture the logic, unless it was deliberate 'coca cola classic' gambit, where it's to be put back later
trinque: the logic is "oooh what a demo, so future"
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the +r thing... we did get the no j/p spam part. sadly the way this shit works leaves no optimal choice, gotta pick this-or-that. is the idea we... i picked the wrong set ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trinque totally has it, remember who the audience is. http://trilema.com/generatia-fara
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 1 hole, is that 'generation-fara' dun buy $4k lappy. they buy ipnoje.
mircea_popescu: but their ~employer~ does!
BingoBoingo: Boomers love demos
asciilifeform: 'welcome to butugychag, here's yer wheelbarrow, it has only left handle'
mircea_popescu: see ? that's the beauty of it, all these lost fucktards who don't have $50 bucks to pay on my queens fulla jacks, nevertheless, NEVERTHELESS i say, "is very rich"
mircea_popescu: how ? "my rent is so and so".
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't come with a laptop-with-watch-in-it, it's not as PRESTIGIOUS a job. (term of art, from the guy with the vehemently delectable pork sausage)
asciilifeform: lol livery
mircea_popescu: you know ?
asciilifeform: ( i'm almost surprised livery-proper hasn't made comeback yet )
mircea_popescu: how "hasn't" ?
mircea_popescu: very much has. company dress code, and they DO all dress very much alike. the differences are superficial.
asciilifeform: well they dun make the programmers wear 'crapple uniform' yet
asciilifeform: ( or do they )
mircea_popescu: yes, they do.
mircea_popescu: "in this office, we dress from $scripshop)
mircea_popescu: and we drop our "hard earned" scrip at $bar
mircea_popescu: and we so and so.
asciilifeform: i recall slaving in a galley where the brass handed out 'company shirts', then later saw'em in the kitchen as dishrags
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how "ironic" works. YES the emblazoned tshirts. of course, it's what they're for, channeling this sentiment.
mircea_popescu: but then when same galley hand "team building", all the stupid cunts had the same cut of panties on, you just didn't look.
asciilifeform: entirely possible
mircea_popescu: kinda how this works, best i can tell. "this is the livery for expressing your disdain to livery, and this is the livery to express your dedication to livery, and there you go, a complete experience out of a cardboard breakfast box"
asciilifeform: 'company dress code' must be a west-usa thing, asciilifeform went through several slaveries where he was only one not dressed in hobo garb
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with hobo garb, "shows you care" "about the less fortunate".
asciilifeform: dunno if meant to 'show' anyffing, it's what folx go around in when entirely not giving shit, costs $5
trinque: *conspicuously not giving a shit
asciilifeform: chinese plasticloth
mircea_popescu: or so they think, at any rate.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-13 17:27 mircea_popescu: george sanders has an excellent point re this : "for new yorkers who want to go out of town, new haven is a stretch of sidewalk between the taft hotel and the schubert theatre, surrounded by what appears remarkably like a small town".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think about it this way, "ropa americana" ie, 2nd hand clothes imported from the us, are VERY DISTINGUISHABLE in actual not-giving-a-shit places. how would this be, if it carried no information ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:03 phf: asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature
asciilifeform pictures herd of orcs in 1990s 'adidas' cloth
mircea_popescu: ALSO "not giving a shit" amirite.
asciilifeform: i'd picture that genuine not-giving-shit will be in plain white rag
asciilifeform: or whatever fell of the truck most recently
mircea_popescu: in my case it's in suits. but in any case, it'll ahve to not have been pret-a-porter not-giving-shits.
mircea_popescu: because you specifically can't have fried ice, these two are contradictory. either it's marketed to or not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, eating roadkill is only not giving a shit until some nutjob in santa cruz comes up with $275 to rent a cable channel slot and starts pushing his miracle cure, diet & philosophy.
asciilifeform: afaik typical orc puts on a suit solely when being buried
mircea_popescu: sorta like being a homosexual was only a sexual choice before they came up with the political choice of being gay.
asciilifeform: dunno, the antics of marie antoinette did not cancel actual milkmaids existing
asciilifeform: non-'ironically'
mircea_popescu: breifly back to phf 's discussion of r+ thing : i confess i mostly did it to encourage the "spammer" to put registration in. sadly... went instead the way of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-13.log.html#t22:59:16
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-13 22:59:16: <Xoc11> ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
mircea_popescu: nfi why people are stupid.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but at the time ~there was something to do~. this, yes, always rescues. but what's there to do ? last time esltard did something the wall was still standing.
asciilifeform: there's always plenty to do , even when the 'doers' are in drunken haze instead
asciilifeform: especially then.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:25:07 << very much the central problem republic's been dealing with since serious work begun.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:25:07: <Mocky> and i added implementations of those methods to worldhandler.cpp, which i can show if curious. but this brings me to my problem: I can't include worldhandler.h in any of my code without bringing in the whole cs / ps spitoon
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, because milk comes from supermarket, so what milkmaid.
mircea_popescu: (yes, obviously, my highly structured response to the problem being called slavery, but that's neither here nor there, walled garden so to speak)
asciilifeform: lol Mocky about to become familiar with the art of the hacksaw
mircea_popescu: the fellow'\s fucking endearing, what can i tell you.
asciilifeform: he's full time eulorist nao, iirc
mircea_popescu: well, until he finds a real job (tm). as per above.
asciilifeform: ( i assume he was found equal to the work, at some earlier time )
mircea_popescu: god fucking help me if ima make square "ice sculptures" and give out ptolemaic imaginary beasts.
asciilifeform: i dun think i know the ref -- are these euloric artifacts ?
mircea_popescu: "this most prestigious rhino has a cat's head inside the chicken head on each of its four wingtips. SO MUCH MORE PRESTIGIOUS than the flying whale of that other temple"
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 20:09 trinque: that "touch bar" thing is the saddest shit. they literally put the stupid watch they made in the laptop.
mircea_popescu: traim milenii de impliniri marete, pre-attic nile valley v2.0.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:30:42: <Mocky> the only thing I can think is if I can pull out those includes from worldhandler.h and put them in worldhandler.cpp, but I just don't see it. 90% of the methods have csString, or EID, csPtr, csVector3
mircea_popescu: THESE IDIOTS REIMPLEMENTED C STRINGS you understand me. also wrongly, of course. fucking pancake.
asciilifeform: oh mircea_popescu , recall the flowgraph project ?
asciilifeform: cuz as it stands, to this day the state of the art re hacksaw work, is the plain old chalkboard...
asciilifeform: d00d is gonna have to lay it all out , by hand.
mircea_popescu: i suspect "he'd just like something that works".
mircea_popescu: hell, so would i. now where is it.
asciilifeform: ^ that is where it is. ( in fairy tale )
mircea_popescu: no pure objects in reality, huh. plato, i r disappoint.
asciilifeform: there might be, but you gotta drill through 500 metres of rock and 100 of liquishit, to get to'em.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform first time i saw a steam-powered sledge. russian technology ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think you ro folx had ~similar tale, with the pike fish and the magic stove
a111: Logged on 2014-02-14 17:22 asciilifeform: where 'honey don't forget to refuel the reactor, milk the bear, and turn us in to the kgb.'
asciilifeform: ( lazy son (tm)(r) likes to sit on warm stove all day, makes threewishes, gets magic stove & other 'just works'en )
mircea_popescu is just giving hard time
asciilifeform: olden age item.
asciilifeform: pre-su, but quintessentially slavic (tm)
mircea_popescu: the drawing ? strikes me as very 1990s.
asciilifeform: aah pic is prolly modern
asciilifeform: but typical of genre
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841302 << nah. integration is generally a bad idea.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:07 asciilifeform: prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback
mircea_popescu: wtf do i care what "the agreed upon log" looks like.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yup! that, very 80s, visually!
asciilifeform: btw the orig folktale included mega-line 'and many did the stove crush as it went'
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha
asciilifeform: ( he drives it to the palace and takes over kingdom )
mircea_popescu: "why did russian inventors not develop airplane ?" "and many did the stove crush as it went."
asciilifeform: ahahahayes
asciilifeform: this is recurrent motif , e.g. self-enfooding tablecloth
mircea_popescu: the guy that was going to make a working satellite fell into latrine and sunk under weight of wristwatch (that included laptop).
asciilifeform: peculiarly dar al islam, in spite of barrel rolls and immelmanns on flying carpet, also somehow did not pioneer airplane...
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to want it... and another thign to dream it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841309 << i'm persuaded the problem exists. now wut do ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:11 phf: so +r drops the reliability of all logtrons
asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:52:40 << incidentally asciilifeform coupla yrs ago made failed attempt to replace 'boost' in trb with cpp11isms. principle obstacle was that gcc 4.9x doesn't really have 100% working cpp11.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:52:40: <Mocky> is it permissible to use c++11 features with the client/build? I couldn't tell from the jamconfig. it seems like the int64_t type is a c++11 thing and that's in there.
asciilifeform: ( but also that it introduces massive batch of unknwown deviltry in place of ~known )
mircea_popescu: tell me about it.
asciilifeform: it's part of how i ended up with ada : found that just about all of the 'good parts' of cpp11ism were lifted from it
asciilifeform: ( lifted poorly, unsurprisingly )
asciilifeform: e.g. the spectacular clusterfuck of 'smart pointers'
asciilifeform: quite likely was attempt to copy ada behaviour while retaining 'compatibility'
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:31 phf: we've had this conversation long time ago, that irc loging is a purely gossip-like thing. at best you can say that "a111 received this message at such and such time, was claimed to be from X"
mircea_popescu: the very deliberate, and very plain gossipd-philosophy roots of logotrons are indeed not to be forgotten, either.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this being so, still imho suxx when , we yes had convo, but then it aint in any logs anywhere
asciilifeform: at random
mircea_popescu: explain "had convo"
asciilifeform: y'know, like here an' nao
mircea_popescu: but this is in the logs.
asciilifeform: right. and then netsplit, and suddenly not
mircea_popescu: but then explain "had convo". if i http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-30#1838270 it's netspliut yes ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-30 16:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/W9sYG/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: involuntary privacy is to be resolved by the parties involved, not by the logger.
asciilifeform: speaking of fleanode weather, rather than deliberate off-forum conv
mircea_popescu: define "deliberate"
mircea_popescu: freenode is not an agent.
asciilifeform: as in !later tell mircea_popescu http:...gpgturd
mircea_popescu: error : abstract symbol "deliberate" doesn't admit to be defined formally.
mircea_popescu: if you did it, it was deliberate. that's the definition of "you".
asciilifeform: sure does. if mircea_popescu speaking into a gpgtron, then deliberate off-forum. if he's talking into a wire that turns out aint plugged into nuffin, then weather.
mircea_popescu: is the proper honorific for this weather mr or ms ?
asciilifeform: well poseidon is a mr
mircea_popescu: you either did it or didn't do it, we can't just invent doers by looking around, can we now.
asciilifeform: what was the line with the mills , from mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: !#s self milling
a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 18:04 mircea_popescu: aand in today's cogitations, "all machines are milling machines -- some self-milling, some not entirely".
mircea_popescu: or from the other structure looking in towards this same thing, the ~state~ of being public is something to be set by the participants, not by the fucking scribe.
asciilifeform: unreliable scribes suck tho
mircea_popescu: how is logotron going to decide for you what you ~meant to~ have public.
mircea_popescu: it's reliable enough, if it hears it says.
asciilifeform: rrright but thread was specifically re 'sometimes it dun hear on acct of $lameness'
mircea_popescu: ok, but the problem is how to solve. "speak otherwise" seems right thing ; "change its hearing" seems wrong thing.
asciilifeform: i suspect that playing 'let's patch winblowz' but with fleanode, is not winning proposition, yes
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, one day you accidentally cut your kbd cable while playing with cnc mill, phf is stuck putting code into a111 to bridge electric airgap ?
asciilifeform: funnel gotta be plugged at correct end.
mircea_popescu: i believe so.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841351 << this sounds like the fucking lamborghini of all logotrons. seriously, connect ~two~ clients to ~each~ ircd and then have them ring-vote ? i agree it's the correct design, fwiw, but maybe hold off on implementation some time ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:34 phf: i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"
mircea_popescu: otherwise this mega-logotron is actually larger than the freenode it logs. might as well use IT then instead.
asciilifeform: is ~= what asciilifeform noted, downthread
mircea_popescu: (but yes, i readily admit that the original notion in my head is for replacement to eventually grow, organically, out of the loggers, and this is what informs the "meh, too soon" recurrences http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-29#1819587 )
a111: Logged on 2018-05-29 17:28 mircea_popescu: trinque, the whole fucking idea is to replace it once and good, with gossipd.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:35 phf: i'm pretty sure we had pocket conversations during netsplits, that none of the bots heard
mircea_popescu: the counterbalance, however, being that public conversations are by their nature immutable. what can you possibly ever say in public ? the ~same~ thing over and over again, yes ? hence the http://trilema.com/2018/let-me-tell-you-how-bad-i-have-it/#selection-29.0-29.43
mircea_popescu: the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.
mircea_popescu: if she whispers "i love you, master" just as you feel her asshole tear you might deeply regret having missed hearing it ; but if alf says (yes ? name not pronoun ?) c++ bungled smart pointers, what am i going to miss ? it's not fucking going away. if only it did. it's not. the reason he fucking said it, even is because the damned thing won't go away already.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall thread where ( i fughet which one of us ) posed gedankenexperiment, put in an eliza made out of collection of ' n00b: $input mircea_popescu: $output ' pairs, and see what it does to n00bs
asciilifeform: sorta how 'faq' was invented.
asciilifeform: ( somewhere i got a GB+ of faqolade from the golden usenet days, some are pretty lulzy reads )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho log is important labour-saving device, lack of ability to point n00b to $oldlog , instead of having to say same thing 10,000 times, is one of the plagues that killed usenet
asciilifeform: ( granted , literacy only worx if there exist reader also, and not merely chuckcha-is-a-writer )
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: ok, labour saving, but gotta actually save labour you know ?
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841573 << this is all new to me, I've been learning cpp from Stroustrup 4th ed. where he goes out of his way to act like cpp11 is the only version that ever existed
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 20:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:52:40 << incidentally asciilifeform coupla yrs ago made failed attempt to replace 'boost' in trb with cpp11isms. principle obstacle was that gcc 4.9x doesn't really have 100% working cpp11.
Mocky: re: hacksaw skills, yes, I can see the need for this quite clearly
mircea_popescu: it's a learning journey.
Mocky: but you repeat yourself
BingoBoingo: All reading is re-reading!
mircea_popescu: how did the monk that hated laughter go, "but a splendid, eternal recapitulation".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841367 << no, the "on account" was very specifically "count of free hands".
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:43 asciilifeform: my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 18:54 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/08/joe-stacking-takes-off-with-2-incidents-in-recent-days/ << Qntra - Joe Stacking Takes Off With 2 Incidents In Recent Days
mircea_popescu: "In the first incident a SEATAC ground crew member 29 year old Richard Russell" << could use some commas.
mircea_popescu: "I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. " << that poor guy. i'd say on reflection this is utterly the engineerhead problem, "takes a whole adult life to unlearn five lines of socialist idiocy a stupid woman poured into the 3yo head"
BingoBoingo: ty, fxd
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: often whole life -- still notenuff
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841639 << actually quite pertinent to the thread -- stroustrup spent virtually entire past 20yrs , in successive attempts to coverup his n-1-st warcrime by pretending 'neverhappened' and... carrying on with moar of same!
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 21:39 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841573 << this is all new to me, I've been learning cpp from Stroustrup 4th ed. where he goes out of his way to act like cpp11 is the only version that ever existed
asciilifeform: sorta the polar opposite of vtronic development : 'this is c++, this always was'
Mocky: I have nfi how much influence he still has on standard, but spends entire preface kissing feet of latest version
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/08/ny-times-attempting-to-meddle-in-brazilian-election-by-publishing-essay-by-corrupt-motherfucker/ << Qntra - NY Times Attempting To Meddle In Brazilian Election By Publishing Essay By Corrupt Motherfucker
asciilifeform: whereas 'no , motherfucker, what c++ actually is, ~is~ the the microshit crock of shit'
asciilifeform: if one were to ~set out to~ take the merely convoluted pointersandoverflowslang aka c, and turn into ~permanently~ indecipherably stateful churning liquishit, it would be quite difficult to do a 'better' job of it than stroustrup did.
asciilifeform: the man carries moar of the responsibility for microshit ecosystem than prolly any other single malignant shit alive.
asciilifeform: ( naggum had the observation, went like 'brokenness of unix is the brokenness of c , of winblows -- of c++ '
asciilifeform: shitoshi's horror is an archaetypical example.
asciilifeform: 'how much memory this uses' 'this q is turing-complete, try asking something else'
asciilifeform: 'aah you put something in a hash table, why now surprised that it uses half a meg each time, dontchaknow it has to rebalance red-black'
asciilifeform: 'you concated two strings, of course this uses unbounded heap space and frags'
asciilifeform: 'this proggy is faux-multithreaded, so of fuckingcourse there's a lock around erry variable toggle'
asciilifeform: the eulora folx can prolly add to this kunstkammer
Mocky: good times... "fun never ends"
Mocky: gotta earn that gray beard
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform s. strikes as exactly the sort of fellow who;d be trying "the same thing" in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841629
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 21:11 mircea_popescu: the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.
asciilifeform: afaik he has never done anything else.
mircea_popescu: it's readily suspicious, when the following elements meet : a) a new set is promoted that includes some of the elements of the previous set but b) there's no discussion of why exactly some were left out, in substantial terms of what was wrong with them that reach all the way to the root and c) the author is apparently unaware that the a-b combo is the principal signal of idiocy.
asciilifeform: observe how the unix folx, richie & thompson, also proceeded similarly, doubled down on the 'unix philosophy' in e.g. 'inferno'
mircea_popescu: somehow the idiocy of democracy, "we have a new senate" "what was wrong with the old one ?" "huh ?" is supposed to steal our wits with the eyes attached, and leave us believing that "this is how it goes" or something ?
asciilifeform: 'we built straw bomber, it did not fly, gotta build bigger! one'
mircea_popescu: ~why~ did it have to change, and ~why~ was it there in the first place then. these gotta be addressed, wtf pseudo-rational process is this.
asciilifeform: there is no indication that there ever ~had been~ a 'why'. d00d designs like child picks his nose.
asciilifeform: 'because can'
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with this, incidentally. exploration is exploration. "we're trying things out, go away" is a perfectly legitimate state of affairs.
mircea_popescu: argument could even be brought "and then, idiots went and wrote linux in it".
asciilifeform: 1980s included plenty of examples of disastrous enthronement of 'this is experiment, go away' to 'industry captains'(tm)
asciilifeform: without an intermediate sanity filter
mircea_popescu: except this, perfectly available, intellectual stance -- very much not stroustrup
asciilifeform: experiment , on intellectual honesty planet, includes discussion of result .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 2010s, too. bitcoin, amirite.
asciilifeform: and admission of failures.
asciilifeform: cpp added up to ~30+ yrs of utter disaster.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841669 << eulora client has a lot of this. you know it uses 5 threads ? of which 4 do nothing ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 22:31 asciilifeform: 'this proggy is faux-multithreaded, so of fuckingcourse there's a lock around erry variable toggle'
mircea_popescu: 5, specifically.
asciilifeform: lol exactly like trb?!
mircea_popescu: the usual "why magic number ?" question goes doubly so for thread counts -- if your program has a fixed thread count it's not multi-threaded, it's badly written.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. same school
Mocky: asciilifeform, 'inferno' is this? >> http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-25#1032830
a111: Logged on 2015-02-25 01:37 asciilifeform: while hunting for marvell errata sheets, found http://code.google.com/p/inferno-kirkwood/source/browse/devsata.c - driver for same, written for bell labs's 'inferno' os (interesting animal all in itself, see old thread) - contains some clues re: reset behaviour
mircea_popescu: (yes, i'm using this to raise the army that'll surgerize trb, of course, of course)
asciilifeform: Mocky: yes it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-08#1832784 << let's flesh this out a little, while at it. podophyllotoxin, active ingredient in mandrake root, is not only toxic but actually damages dna (ties the strand to topoisomerase, and prevents religation). this happens to be useful in some medical contexts (neoplasm management, basically). enter etoposide and teniposide, one with a methyl the other with a thienyl. otherwise, same item.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:29 asciilifeform: 'why is this methyl group here' '...patent'
mircea_popescu: functionally identical, actually.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the yew thing, similar
asciilifeform: plenty of these.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: threading in trb is exactly variant of ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -- it's there because idjit had nfi how to do nonblocking i/o
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
asciilifeform: ( granted , in unixland it aint easy, and in winblowz planet -- ~impossible )
asciilifeform: result, naturally, is ~still~ blocking i/o, but proggy... pretends to run while blocked
asciilifeform: ( hence 'blackhole' etc )
mircea_popescu: theres a whole lot of that in eulora as well. and in ~all cpp-gui offerings past 20 yearsd
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