Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-12-02 | 2017-12-04 → ↓
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Cool, barring any problems the transit time will be ~24 hours
a111: Logged on 2017-12-01 22:42 mircea_popescu: in other news nobody cares about, usg.state's main asset in romania looks well headed to jail. kovesi (special "anti-corruption prosecutor") lied about meeting various politicians (as part of usg embassy-directed http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-28#1743878 scandal).
mircea_popescu: "investigative" in the sense of "here's half the picture, let's hope together that a) you're not smart enough to understand the elements it's constructed out of are meaningless and b) the areas it doesn't cover are meaningful". basically, the EXACT nonsense as in "wash dc pizzeria scandal"/"#metoo" : free association game.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739096 : it's my recollection that when i released mp-wp, the deal was somebody picks it up and genesises it. i dun recall right off who, was it you shinohai ? or ben_vulpes ?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 18:19 phf: manual meaning that i see a vpatch in any random place, i post it (obviously it benefits me, more content etc.)
mircea_popescu: now i want to link to the thing in this article and... where do i link
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/lets-revisit-the-google-is-irrelevant-discussion/ << Trilema - Let's revisit the Google-is-irrelevant discussion.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745756 << this is the right idea, but for some inexplicable reason is castrated -- why only half-length 1U, and holds 2 boards, not 4 ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745755 << it was a formatting issue, and he repasted with p.bvulpes -- but the unfortunate bit is that they, too, will vanish, and the comment becomes useless in <1week unless i manually archive'em
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 02:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform better error message is "please use p.bvulpes, your pastes vanished"
asciilifeform: pastetrons intrinsically suck.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745758 << will run into solid wall of unhappening, just like the climate crapola, podesta, etc
asciilifeform: 'only terrorist conspiracytheorists, toxicfacts' etc.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745760 >> here's a bonus mindfuck, mircea_popescu :
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 10:09 mircea_popescu: ah, speaking of http://trilema.com/2017/why-is-fighting-corruption-the-pantsuit-callsign/ & http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-01#1745184 : https://www.riseproject.ro/articol/banul-paralel/ (the principal, though by now kinda defunded, usg.dos tool in .ro).
asciilifeform: on right hand -- 'simon', american children's toy where coloured lights blink and kid tries to repeat the sequence
asciilifeform: could, certainly, be a case of 'there are only so-many cheapo clip arts'. but also not a bad 'subconscious confession' of muppetry, alternatively.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745762 << the pizzeria people didn't do anything that, e.g., bush's 'wmd' people didn't do. only diff is that one did it while inca emperor, and demolished a good chunk of whole continent, while other -- did it while penniless hobos, and perforated a roof in an old house.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 10:10 mircea_popescu: "investigative" in the sense of "here's half the picture, let's hope together that a) you're not smart enough to understand the elements it's constructed out of are meaningless and b) the areas it doesn't cover are meaningful". basically, the EXACT nonsense as in "wash dc pizzeria scandal"/"#metoo" : free association game.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745763 << my current reading of the shoemaker is that he was some combo of senility and 'tilt' (being under attack from ~all angles by the empire, and unable to do much of anything in the way of genuine push-back )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 11:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/stenograma-sedintei-comitetului-politic-executiv-al-cc-al-pcr-din-ziua-de-11-octombrie-1977-translated/ << check out what i found for you!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty lulzy, yes.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure it's not deliberate, by this point.
mircea_popescu: not all intelligent people find the republic. some that don't... "troll" the imbecile public, ie, sopirla.
asciilifeform: that'd be gut-bustingly lulzy. 'simon sayz!111'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745772 << well, yes, as indirection layer above blog comment. nfi why one'd do that instread of just putting the material in a blockquote.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 14:34 asciilifeform: pastetrons intrinsically suck.
mircea_popescu: but the good news is you can config your blogotron to just suck out pastes and put them in blockquotes itself. tho i've not had mp-wp do this
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745775 << honestly, i don't see what the secret even is. "stanford dares to elitism" ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 14:41 asciilifeform: 'only terrorist conspiracytheorists, toxicfacts' etc.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would standford give a dumb neet as much as a length of string "because they need it" ? let them need from their fucking mother / community college.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745783 << my read is that he was genuine lee kuan yew, except not nearly as intelligent (nor fortunate) ; eventually collapsed under the pressure of the pointless maggot herd wanting what it wants rather than what it needs aka "democracy".
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 14:56 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745763 << my current reading of the shoemaker is that he was some combo of senility and 'tilt' (being under attack from ~all angles by the empire, and unable to do much of anything in the way of genuine push-back )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the seekrit, as i understand, is that they were running a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-23#1742441 scheme, but in fact were recruiting folx who already ~had~ 'goodjerbs'
a111: Logged on 2017-11-23 15:26 mircea_popescu: the only fucking reason, point and selling characteristic of anglo college is "making money", and there's no quantum below 1 million dollars.
mircea_popescu: doh. how else would you have them do it ?
mircea_popescu: ofcoursetheywere.
asciilifeform: there's also the simpler alternative, which i originally assumed they use -- simply pulling 'employability' stats out of thin air
mircea_popescu: nah, the amusing thing about the empire of thin air is that ~everything is "justified". it's never "here's some hot air", it's always "here's two steps of correct deductions based on the 3rd on thin air"
asciilifeform: lolaha, 'only Dumb Orcs pull ~straight~ from thin air!11'
mircea_popescu: i dunno what the difference they imagine is
mircea_popescu: "oh, the sort of idiot reading this only goes 3 nodes deep, we make 4 nodes deep nonsense, 100% proof!"
mircea_popescu: i guess that's why the appeal of google-ish "ai".
mircea_popescu: "from experience, we want intelligence that's not too intelligent"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they operate somewhat like malware obfuscators -- idea, seems, is not to make the sham impenetrable ( this is not physically possible, typically ) but to make the effort of getting to the bottom of every possible idiocy, -ev.
asciilifeform: which somehow (dun ask me) is intended to make folx swallow the crock of shit , rather than wanting to burn whole edifice down ? nfi.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745764 << i recall we ran into the issue of vpatch-ing binaries that hasn't been resolved. wp admin interface relies on a lot of png's and gif's that it's not clear how to stuff into a vpatch without a superfluous "make" phase
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 11:49 mircea_popescu: and speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739096 : it's my recollection that when i released mp-wp, the deal was somebody picks it up and genesises it. i dun recall right off who, was it you shinohai ? or ben_vulpes ?
phf: i think someone was suggesting converting all the png's and gif's into svg, for example, and other like hacks
asciilifeform: phf: recall how i did it in fg.
asciilifeform: ( it's a somewhat unsatisfying answer, but afaik the only general-purpose pill to date )
phf: right, that might work, a tar xf into the same vpatch'ed structure (since you need to place those artifacts just right)
asciilifeform: hashing a la fg does the basic job, of nailing the bins down along with everythingelse
phf: phk wrote a get off my lawn rant about cathedral vs. bazaar http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257 which stirred up the hamsters https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4407188 favorite quote from thread “I don't think the appeal to authority fallacy will fly here. We are all too smart for that.”
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11712.5, vol: 7833.48155863 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 11722.0, vol: 50761.66382973 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 11650.0, vol: 2958.20428703 | Volume-weighted last average: 11717.3307369
asciilifeform: what's phk
asciilifeform: aaa author
asciilifeform: 'Needless to say, this is more than most programmers would ever want to put up with, even if they had the skill, so the input files for autoconf happen by copy and paste, often hiding behind increasingly bloated standard macros covering "standard tests" such as those mentioned earlier, which look for compatibility problems not seen in the past 20 years'
asciilifeform: !#s autoconf
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 15:43 asciilifeform: the far bigger boojum is that ~95% of the tarballs include megabytes of autoconf liquishit.
asciilifeform: 'This is probably also why libtool's configure probes no fewer than 26 different names for the Fortran compiler my system does not have, and then spends another 26 tests to find out if each of these nonexistent Fortran compilers supports the -g option.
asciilifeform: That is the sorry reality of the bazaar Raymond praised in his book: a pile of old festering hacks, endlessly copied and pasted by a clueless generation of IT "professionals" who wouldn't recognize sound IT architecture if you hit them over the head with it.'
asciilifeform: whole thing notbad.jpg.
phf: apparently he also argues for fits in head as the only proper measure elsewhere, but i can't find the source of quote (possibly person who implied it is a log reader, and just reused the variety speak)
asciilifeform: ' Sam Leffler's graphics/libtiff is one of the 122 packages on the road to www/firefox, yet the resulting Firefox browser does not render TIFF images. For reasons I have not tried to uncover, 10 of the 122 packages need Perl and seven need Python; one of them, devel/glib20, needs both languages for reasons I cannot even imagine.'
jurov: What does the "beautiful cathedral of unix" that he uses in a contrast, mean?
jurov: Surely not pervasive use of gets() and "when it segfaults when passed too long line, it's user's fault"?
asciilifeform: jurov: prolly sysv
asciilifeform: and to d00d who spent entire working life with piles of shit, a small and dried up one is moarbeautiful than a gigantic and steaming pile
a111: Logged on 2017-03-28 17:54 asciilifeform: how did it go, 'man who has not read sysv, is illiterate; man who has read nothing but sysv, is also illiterate' (or was it marx..)
jurov: neither deserves to be called cathedral...
jurov: or if, then msdos was even more a cathedral!
BingoBoingo: Plenty of shitty cathedrals out there, not like we are talking Basillica or anything
asciilifeform: jurov: term is an esrism, referring to items made with fuhrerprinzip; as opposed to amorphous liquishit from herd
asciilifeform: ( granted esr tried to spin it in opposite direction, misleading the easily mislead )
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 497425 | Current Difficulty: 1.347001430558E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 497951 | Next Difficulty In: 526 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 2 hours, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11370.0, vol: 9391.96352467 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 11394.0, vol: 3377.78197594 | Volume-weighted last average: 11376.3483464
BingoBoingo: Well, if this holds up 12500 could be passed when I am in transit
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what's interesting re this particular number
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745811 << quite. and it works especially well on idiots, which is to say agents devoid of examinatory capacity. the higher your subjective cost per mile "walked", the more feasible imperial rationalization is.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 17:12 asciilifeform: which somehow (dun ask me) is intended to make folx swallow the crock of shit , rather than wanting to burn whole edifice down ? nfi.
mircea_popescu: now guess why colleges burned down "spontaneously" post http://trilema.com/2017/when-did-america-end/#footnote_6_76183
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's the number the gut feeling indicator had a hunch on
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745812 << afaik this has been resolved as for eg FG original / future bioses etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 17:31 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745764 << i recall we ran into the issue of vpatch-ing binaries that hasn't been resolved. wp admin interface relies on a lot of png's and gif's that it's not clear how to stuff into a vpatch without a superfluous "make" phase
mircea_popescu: also afaik the pngs etc are 100% within ~the theme~ which was not originally bundled.
mircea_popescu: so full excision also acceptable approach. tbh i dun recall this ever having been the problem.
mircea_popescu: “I don't think the appeal to authority fallacy will fly here. We are all too smart for that.” << bwahahaha. two smart by half, the tards.
mircea_popescu: phf i don't understand the dating scheme involved. page says august 15, 2012, text refers to 2001 as "13 years ago" (so was it 2014 ?) and you present it as an event that just happened ? which is it ?
mircea_popescu: but otherwise yes, the "bazaar" utter practical failure and completly irredemable theoretical idiocy is an established point.
asciilifeform: looks like an oldie yea
asciilifeform: i assumed was intentional
asciilifeform: the utter and complete lunacy of 'bazaar' was obvious in 2012. and 2001. and 12, and 1, and there's whole motherfucking biblical parable re the tower etc
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-03#1745837 << cp/m ? i can't begin to imagine what.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 20:42 jurov: What does the "beautiful cathedral of unix" that he uses in a contrast, mean?
mircea_popescu: unix never worked.
mircea_popescu: people such as here present will claim that bolix or something like that worked, but i have my reservations. and in any case lispm wasn't "unix", though cathedral alright.
asciilifeform: the original contrast turd was the now-forgotten 'multics'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform multics was unix ?!
mircea_popescu: 1964 ? how far back can this go
asciilifeform: contrast turd, in the heads of the 'unix was beautiful' people
mircea_popescu: but i mean... why not straight to analogics.
asciilifeform: why not to spear and bear skin lol
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 19:50 asciilifeform: when you push it, the word правильно (CORRECT)
asciilifeform: speaking here of items that actually stood as competitors, for however long
asciilifeform: compare tanks from same war, not from 50yr apart, similarly.
mircea_popescu: well, multics (64), cp/m (74), unix (80s), linux/windows (90s) etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to make the matchbox 'computer' wholly unixlike, it ought to occasionally fail to open
asciilifeform: for no detectable reason
mircea_popescu: anyway, i dun personally see the link between unix and multics beyond "well, thompson and ritchie!!"
asciilifeform: ( and sometimes snap closed mid-open, etc )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: multics, at least mythologically, was the Officially Blessed Liquishit against which t & r pushed back , initially in their spare time
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: on written-off pdp, etc.
mircea_popescu: but still. at least cp/m had a rivalry with dos vaguely reminescent of linux/windoze thing
mircea_popescu: architecturally what's the multics / unics connection ? that both had a shell ?
asciilifeform: hard to describe the contest as any kind of actual contest after the official usg, err, ibm, blessing of microshit
asciilifeform: ( in re cp/m vs dos )
mircea_popescu: and similarily in the 90s.
phf: asciilifeform: "present as just happened" was unintentional, but otherwise that sounds about right, 2012 publication, hackernews thread is from roughly the same time
phf: s/asciilifeform/mircea_popescu/
asciilifeform: in '90s microshit rode the proverbial zundapp-with-mg-sidecar around the killing field, finishing off the wounded.
mircea_popescu: phf but how could it have been published in 2012 if the author thinks it was written in 2014 ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. i guess double fencepost errors are also possible.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 21:04 BingoBoingo: Well, if this holds up 12500 could be passed when I am in transit
phf: mircea_popescu: it's also possible that he's referring to the original publication of esr's essay, that predated the book by couple of years
mircea_popescu: my first thought, except he says the year, 2001.
phf: i wonder if that bit was added by the editors
mircea_popescu: if you strike the parens he still says "when book"
phf: well, the book was published in 99!
mircea_popescu: i thought it was 2000
asciilifeform: ( in re multics, for dedicated archaeologist : http://multicians.org/simulator.html )
mircea_popescu: ah right you are, 99.
mircea_popescu: alright then that clears that.
phf: pantsuit publishing doesn't standup to tmsr rigorous and requires certain amount of archeology to get straight
mircea_popescu: phf what scares me most is what the man who seems to appreciate f p brooks also thinks the "tricks of the trade" are, to verbatim, "test-restoring backups, scripting operating-system installs, version control, etc".
mircea_popescu: whenever i read stuff these people (1990s era graybeards) have to say i always get a feeling of that mercedes-riding-priest.
mircea_popescu: you know the story ?
phf: hehe, no
mircea_popescu: year is 1990s and guy has a mercedes, unseen car in eastern lands. a priest is hitchhiking, guy stops, priest goes in.
mircea_popescu: priest wants to know what is that thing on the hood ? and guy explains slyly that "well, this is a german car, you know, they're a warlike people. so you aim pedestrians with that and well..."
mircea_popescu: then there's a pedestrian, and the guy, wanting to put a little meat behind his joke, sorta drives the car towards him and steers away at the last minute
mircea_popescu: much to his shock and horror, the rearview mirror shows brains and guts scattered everywhere
mircea_popescu: the priest, very calmly, "eh, you can fuck your germans ; had i not opened my door you'd have missed him."
mircea_popescu: kinda same with p-h kamp (and all the rest of them at that) : hurr durr design, hurr durr thought provoking, herp-derp scripted os-reinstall. nigga... are you a priest or aren't you ?
mircea_popescu: dem thoughts dun really seem all that provoked, what can i say.
phf: heh, right
mircea_popescu: aaanyways.
phf: well, the bar is set very low
asciilifeform: the point re how a build script taking up moar bytes than a ~bloated~ os took up in 1980s, does not require a genius, to make
mircea_popescu: looks more like out and out schizophrenia.
asciilifeform: there's a certain level of schizo that goes with the profession
asciilifeform: same folx do not program for decades.
mircea_popescu: no item where certain degree of schizo goes can be called profession.
asciilifeform: prolly doomed to become a caste ( in the model of the hindu shit-shoveling-with-bare-hands folx ) , as observed by neal stephenson and others.
mircea_popescu: now THAT is always & guaranteed "certain degree of believe not what your eyes show you but what the book tells you"
asciilifeform: work that ruins the worker for the company of civilized people, has that effect.
mircea_popescu: quite so, yes.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, do we agree that o'reilly pushing esr idiocy ("bazaar") is responsible for 2001 bubble in the same way aol is responsible for 1993 and lehman for 2007 ?
phf: i'm pretty sure we had that in thread
mircea_popescu: ah did we ? kthen
phf: actually, no, we were talking about o'reilly and web 2.0
mircea_popescu: different idiocy.
mircea_popescu: in fact, o'reilly has the unique distinction of having produced more crap per unit useful than ~everything known to man, including the anglican church, the various other protestants and so on
mircea_popescu: big deal to manage to be dumber than calvin.
asciilifeform: dunno that it makes sense to give any particular printolade-bubble overseer the distinction of a name and attributed agency. it's not unlike pinning the black plague on a particular, named rat
phf: it's a particularly big fucking rat
mircea_popescu: more importantly, it's a self-advertising rat.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, he was at the fortefront of the whole "object oriented" "revolution" also, wasn't he.
phf: i missed a point re phk though. is the idea that "scripted os-reinstall" is a bad idea, or that it's insufficient?
mircea_popescu: dumb fucking nonsense, a good fit for maybe 1% of cases presented as california magical weight loss cure.
mircea_popescu: phf why would my os ever need to be reinstalled ?
mircea_popescu: i don't reinstall my toilet, or my stove, or my car.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would i!
mircea_popescu: what sort of piece of shit os is this whereby system breakage to the level where bsod is possible!
mircea_popescu: actually, let me rephrase : how could an item that can need reinstalling be called an os ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: oop-circa-1990s was a bastardization of 1970s-era narrowly domained ( cad, a few other ) item , picked specifically with 'this is promising for deskilling programming' item
mircea_popescu: evidently, the thing that does THE REINSTALLING is the os.
mircea_popescu: ie, hand-cranked os ffs.
asciilifeform: idea being explicitly anti- fitsinhead, i.e. 'make program behave like ensemble of physical objects'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i know.
mircea_popescu: tbh, oreilly was minnow back when oop started, just tried to wave a ride.
phf: in the original it's "os install", the idea is automatic instead of manual provisioning. we practice it here
mircea_popescu: phf i can't read it like that in the context of the three items that he offers as his tools of the trade.
mircea_popescu: if i were trying to teach the "greenhorns" in 1990s how to survive, i'd make them read eg knuth. literate programming. stuff.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this shit.
mircea_popescu: i can't read it any other way than "my racing toolkit consists of duct tape, cyanoacrylate, and just-add-water wheel assemblages to be bolted down on any 2x2 inch flat surface you might wish".
mircea_popescu: now, it's true we use superglue on skin tears, but it's not true that such nonsense as that described can be a racing toolkit.
mircea_popescu: even leaving the particulars aside, what you teach greenhorns is to BE LESS EXCITED!!! not "be less responsible".
phf: right, i think perhaps the problem of this particular turn of phrase, is that he can't actually name what makes him a better than average programmer (like ascii's fits in head, or Principles, or), so he's reduced to a shortcut that is insufficient
mircea_popescu: but you see how this is EXACTLY the same problem ?
mircea_popescu: i ~can~ name what makes me better in any professional field ffs. who can't ? how couldn't you, if it is indeed professional field!
phf: despite the references to brooks, nobody's actually practicing what brooks advocated, so the name and the books are reduced to a charm. yet another cargo cult
mircea_popescu: somehow he manages to write that AND NOT at the same time throw an error. "wait... i... can't actually explain this ?!"
mircea_popescu: shit happens to me ALL! THE! TIME!!!! writing trilema pieces.
mircea_popescu: how does he manages to avoid the exception, you know ? "this enumeration... it doesn't work... what am i actually talking about ?"
phf: hmm hmm
mircea_popescu: i can't be the only one dedicated enough to the craft to actually be bothered by such.
phf: do you see it rationally and then deconstruct it, or do you first experience the wrongness and then seek the source of it? because if it's the first one, then i'm possible lacking necessary tools, but if it's the second, then i just don't always get to the seeking out the source part
mircea_popescu: both happen.
mircea_popescu: the second is more than half tyhe time how trilema articles end up so long, those that do -- there was a shorter thing there that didn't hold, but for expressive rather than fundamentalreasons.
mircea_popescu: the first is how articles are born in the first place, half the time. because "lo! bad construct detected!"
mircea_popescu: but in any case -- ALL PANTSUIT!!! is reduced to a shortcut that is insufficient, and doesn't stand up to investigation. this is in fact so universal in them that it can function as identification. "why do you think X is bad ?" "because it's racist" "but what's that mean ?" "oh puhleaze! do we ~still~ have to ?!?!?!". yes, you do. moreover, https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/07/jezebel_proves_scott_adams_is.html
phf: this is apropos http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523303 but the subtlety requires continual refinement. otherwise you start letting it pass, and turn into one of them
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:13 phf: Framedragger: i was young and a bum, i recognized all these people because my entertainment machine would reinforce their presence for me. "oh jwz is talking. oh now it's ptacek. oh it's paul graham! squee". but they were always in a different category from say norvig or knuth or naggum. once i started doing and learning (i.e. painfully read knuth, rather than just have him on my shelf) i finally was able to grok the difference.
phf: !#seen Framedragger
a111: 2017-10-06 <Framedragger> yes but someone committing to the project without having the necessary time is not far away from malice, imho
mircea_popescu: all the foregoing aside (and much related to what you say) i suspect this is also a very specific vulnerability of the esl folk, in that they DONT expect the language to complain when misused.
mircea_popescu: in fact, they don't expect language pushback (resistance of medium) at all whatsoever, and don't understand how to decode when the words are crying to the heavens their sadness in abuse.
mircea_popescu: whereas to literate folk, this is a major topic. "i...can't say that. why can't i say that ? why won't that let itself be said ?!"
mircea_popescu: people generally laugh at flaubert for having spent however many weeks to discern if 20 or 22 degrees was "more adequate in his text", but the elided truth of the matter is that they who ~entirely~ lack the mechanism there used in excess are in a much sadder spot than poor ol' oncle g.
mircea_popescu: "Modularity and code reuse are, of course, A Good Thing. Even in the most trivially simple case, however, the CS/IT dogma of code reuse is totally foreign in the bazaar: the software in the FreeBSD ports collection contains at least 1,342 copied and pasted cryptographic algorithms." << of which none actually work, is the caper.
jurov: https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2017-11-30-new-17-profiles.html " Please migrate away from the 13.0 profiles within the six weeks after GCC 6.4.0 has been stabilized on your architecture.
jurov: The 13.0 profiles will be deprecated then and removed in half a year."
jurov: "The default C++ language version for applications is now C++14...means, however, that compilers earlier than GCC 6 are masked and not supported for use as a system compiler anymore."
mircea_popescu: not supported by whom ?
mircea_popescu: i must be misunderstanding something.
jurov: what's there to understand. want to run gentoo on gcc 4, you're on your own.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to when
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by the gentoo(tm)(r) people, naturally. helpfully announcing the final cement burial of whatever useful bits were still left on their www from pre-quisling times.
mircea_popescu: is the idea here that "should you attempt to ask questions on stackexchange there'll be a crowd of politruks whining about it" ? or something else ?
asciilifeform: tbh this is moar advancedwarning than this type of thing typically gets. usually it's silent breakage.
mircea_popescu: one doesn't preclude the other, of course.
mircea_popescu: i'm guessing the gcc 6 branch lacks any sort of incentive exactly in the manner gcc 5 did, making this kind of measures necessary ?
asciilifeform: 5 had 0 incentives either, other than for the few folx who really yearned to use c++14isms
asciilifeform: (c++11/14/etc.ism is a rather half-hearted attempt to make '70% bugridden reimplementation' of ada, in cpp, as retrofit. iirc we had a thread a few yrs ago re subj)
mircea_popescu: i recall, yes.
mircea_popescu: though i wouldn't pay much for the upgradist's hide. recall http://trilema.com/2016/internet-census-2016/
asciilifeform: 'Where supported, GCC will now build position-independent executables (PIE) by default.
asciilifeform: ' << guess for whom.
asciilifeform: it's a multilayered shitsandwich : not only makes 0dayolade substantially easier to write, but as bonus makes ALL old libs no longer link
asciilifeform: and forces newgccism machinewide (despite the boldfaced lie re 'can keep other compilers')
mircea_popescu: "more secure" in the sense of, "against non-nsa attackers only"
asciilifeform: 'nobus'(tm)(r)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-07 19:35 asciilifeform: the ftmeade jargon, iirc, is 'nobus' ('no one but us'), in contrast with 'phuctor-style' discoverable hole.
mircea_popescu: so basically, will be driven via cloud and google/apple duopoly.
asciilifeform: gcc6? driven exactly like 5 was. by breaking perfectly-working setups, whenever and wherever they can get their hands on them
mircea_popescu: yes, but... i still dun have a gcc 5 anywhere for instance.
asciilifeform: it wouldn't surprise me to learn that mircea_popescu dun even have a 4 anywhere
mircea_popescu: i got a pile of various ones, actually.
mircea_popescu: eulora eg compiles on 4.4 to 4.9
asciilifeform: re gcc, recall also that it's been put on the usg hitlist, they would like to lead it to a level of dysfunction that will have naive folx welcoming its shooting behind the shed and replacement with Officially blessed clang-llvm
asciilifeform: and yes 6 is being forced in via same mechanism as 5, i.e. they are methodically exterminating archives of source that built cleanly without 5, and replacing -- whenever possible, silently -- with new 'improved' .
mircea_popescu: fortunately it's a whole pile of source that nobody could possibly ever want,
mircea_popescu: i deeply care python 3 won't build without gcc 6 hurr.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo so why not have two rows line normal people. started at 1 0 then moved to 0 7842 then ended at 0 4990
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: principal headache is in re bringing up ~new~ boxes, without gcc5+ crapolade leaking in; rather than keeping old ones going
asciilifeform: incidentally i know of at least 1 item that i use that still not depython3ated -- the lattice ice fpga thing
asciilifeform: ( the verilog synth in particular)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, for eg danielpbarron has that selling eulora boxes thing.
asciilifeform: that kinda thing strikes me as livingdangerously.
mircea_popescu: yes well.
asciilifeform doesn't even like distributing binaries, much less entire gabrielladdelized machines
mircea_popescu: what's one to do with the other ?
asciilifeform: machine full of bins is properly speaking superset of 'some bins' neh
mircea_popescu: dude... did you buy one or what are ye talkin about ?
asciilifeform: the notion itself
mircea_popescu: "the notion itself" is not a thing.
asciilifeform fastens gas mask
mircea_popescu: pretty sure this guy will actually send you one if you pay him ; as opposed to the other one.
asciilifeform: oh i'm quite certain he'll send .
mircea_popescu: well so then.
asciilifeform: recall article where mircea_popescu described how he buys machines ? i.e. from street retail, when possible, in cash, without advance warning re where
asciilifeform: in re 'specificity'
mircea_popescu: but if you're going to have a standard os you're going to have a standard os.
asciilifeform: 'standard os' could be lived with, as necessary , but 'this 1 d00d makes for us machines' is inviting trouble.
mircea_popescu: well, 1 is better than 0. it's not like there's 2 and i'm proposing one quit.
asciilifeform: incidentally anyone willing to admit to using a danielpbarron gentootron ? how is it ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, he could use some reviews, at that.
mircea_popescu: sold any yet danielpbarron ?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron is it on the wiki btw ?
danielpbarron: not that i'm aware of
mircea_popescu: i'd say add it, you know, "or you could buy a preinstalled laptop"
danielpbarron: i bought some reddit ad time for it but nothing ever came of it
mircea_popescu: well... if you feel like documenting it so i'm not the only one explaining how reddit is worth < than the slashdot's coupla mil, lock stock and barrel...
mircea_popescu: at least you get a blog post out of the expense.
danielpbarron: relatedly, i have a FG listed for auction on ebay at the moment.
asciilifeform: lol link ?
asciilifeform: i'll admit to being curious who buys it, for what
danielpbarron: even the buy it now price is a good deal if the price is still 0.0395
asciilifeform: surprisingly not censored yet
asciilifeform: i'd naively imagine the name would get it kicked from heathen markets
asciilifeform: i think this is 1st unit to be publicly sold for heathen dubloons, danielpbarron
danielpbarron: if it does i'll just relisted without the name
asciilifeform: lol possibly i am mistaken actually;
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski tried selling one iirc
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo so why not have two rows line normal people. started at 1 0 then moved to 0 7842 then ended at 0 4990 << NSA and MG had not been notating fiatolade, so I assumed how to handle an open question. Will put together a leperolade line
BingoBoingo: Kinda why I waited to deed it. Gotta publish the statement with the open questions, let powers greater than myself comment.
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