Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-11-02 | 2017-11-04 → ↓
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 492882 | Current Difficulty: 1.452839779145E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 493919 | Next Difficulty In: 1037 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 6 hours, 56 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: aw damn i thought logotron gets the utf points whatever
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/macedonia-visual-quesos-de-turrialba-rios-de-costa-rica-el-volcan-irazu-la-tarantula-vial-otras-temas-y-mas/ << Trilema - Macedonia visual : Quesos de Turrialba ; Rios de Costa Rica ; El Volcan Irazu ; La Tarantula Vial ; Otras Temas ; y mas!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-02#1732274 << not exactly. exception becomes semantically meaningful, then others end up building applications on the meaning, then you're stuck supporting unintended downstreams.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-02 21:23 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-02#1732246 << because one day the $item-I-am-excepting will be $no-longer-the-item-I-should-be-excepting?
mircea_popescu: and in other youtful loves, http://i.imgur.com/9SWvWza.jpg
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-01#1731791 <<< i missed that, and no i see no problem with that. selling stuff that doesn't exist yet happens all the time in the regular course of business
a111: Logged on 2017-11-01 19:11 asciilifeform: davout: no problem with selling items that may or may not exist or have any connection whatsoever to reality ?!
davout: aka promises aren't in themselves fraudulent because they are promises, failure to deliver on the promise is fraudulent
davout: bottom line being, i do think buttfinex is fraudlent, but for different reasons than this particular one
mircea_popescu: davout you're confusing things.
mircea_popescu: "stuff that doesn't exist yet" in the sense of the milking of tomorrow when you own a cow is not "stuff that doesn't exist yet" in the sense of davout's isp that davout neither owns nor will but for 0 reasons feels within himself a swelling indicating that he's just as good as one who does, and therefore in a small manner, as if by contagion, he also will. because he "could".
mircea_popescu: yes futures exist, as a financial derivative. no the millenials' meat isn't worth money "because human rights and democrcy" ; nor has argentina's masfuturo a financiable value.
mircea_popescu: the specific item here discussed is an EXACT rehash of say ttp://trilema.com/2012/and-another-one-bites-the-dust-bitmarketeu/#selection-55.0-57.87 ; which while 5 years old is nevertheless entirely identical ; which is the problem here -- that a specific sort of "mind" keeps making a specific sort of mistake. which is why all the discussions about http://trilema.com/2013/the-story-of-pointless-and-witless/ and so on and so fo
mircea_popescu: now -- it's fine for you to sorta-kinda keep up with the logs, now and again, and trade off the credit you built historically. nobody gives a shit, per se, people have been failing to keep up and getting shedded off like so much dead skin ever since day 1.
mircea_popescu: the problem, however, seems to be that your mind is actually regressing to the mean, and you find yourself in 2017 making the type of arguments you'd have readily recognized as an idiot's (not even a scammer's ; some people are too dumb to actually scam in that they have not the intelligence required to create a space between themselves and their victims, so they're just fucking everyone over without mens rea for lack of a m
mircea_popescu: ens in the first place) back in 2012.
mircea_popescu: this can only come to grief ; and the name of the griefbox is "why is mp so arrogant ; we don't yet know whether it was a scam ; this looks like a serious business because aeron chairs" and other such nonsense amply and insistently documented years ago back when i still vaguely gave a shit about what idiots say and how the idiot brainbox works.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732302 << speaking of 'mas futuro' , the 'btc in ar' scamola apparently back from the grave, https://archive.is/LUSVz
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 12:08 mircea_popescu: yes futures exist, as a financial derivative. no the millenials' meat isn't worth money "because human rights and democrcy" ; nor has argentina's masfuturo a financiable value.
mircea_popescu: i'm sure.
shinohai: gm #trilema
shinohai: Buttfunex not a corral full of thieves ? Am I in the wrong place?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 12:14 mircea_popescu: the specific item here discussed is an EXACT rehash of say ttp://trilema.com/2012/and-another-one-bites-the-dust-bitmarketeu/#selection-55.0-57.87 ; which while 5 years old is nevertheless entirely identical ; which is the problem here -- that a specific sort of "mind" keeps making a specific sort of mistake. which is why all the discussions about http://trilema.com/2013/the-story-of-pointless-and-witless/ and so on and so fo
a111: Logged on 2013-12-25 21:01 asciilifeform: borrowed -> has to be repaid. in cash, or фуфло.
asciilifeform: seems to me that it is exactly same item.
mircea_popescu: yes but the pantsuitistan theory is that poverty is an absolute bar to cash repayment and "human rights" are an absolute bar to фуфло repayment and consequently repayment obligation discharged, problem ?!
mircea_popescu: because if problem they'll change "discharged" with "deferred" and nyah nyah.
asciilifeform: how do you say 'долг платежом красен' proverb in eng.
asciilifeform: ( approx 'the beautiful thing about debt, is that it WILL be paid' )
mircea_popescu: the whole "western world" is built on the hope that nope.
asciilifeform: this only worx because they've dressed ordinary tribute collection as 'borrowing', and ordinary mongol rape as 'lending'
asciilifeform: if usg 'borrows' something from me, i dun expect to see it again 'like own ears without mirror', because mother did not drop me as a child
mircea_popescu: actually, that only works because the chinese are playing the role of romanian student's mother, sending over lunchboxes fulla pork and beans without economic counterprestation, accepting self-issued "certificates" in lieu of payment.
asciilifeform: i still dun fully grasp the middle kingdom's 'feed the enemy until he dies of old age' philosophy, so cannot comment
mircea_popescu: the rest of the "balance sheet", two bit gainarii / trading of stolen phones and classmates' inept sexwork is entirely spurious nonsense bolted on
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it works fucking admirably though, compared to the soviet approach...
mircea_popescu: or the arab approach at that.
asciilifeform: is a 'gainar' a chicken-snatcher ?
asciilifeform was floored by the abundance of free-ranging chickens, of high apparent quality, walking around in timis
asciilifeform: walk a few km, hear 2 or 3 kukareku's
mircea_popescu: !!up manamex
deedbot: manamex voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hang on, i have a discussion somewhere
asciilifeform: meanwhile i found it
a111: Logged on 2017-07-12 03:27 mircea_popescu: amusingly -- the chicken stealer (ro gainar, each language that saw them has its own word) is the lowest level of gypsy male qualification. a sort of transient baccalaureat if you will.
mircea_popescu: ah ok then. basically young gypsy's pons asinorum
mircea_popescu: there you go.
asciilifeform: another poverty of englisch, it dun have a rich set of names for types of thief ( if it did ? long forgotten ? )
asciilifeform: can't directly say, e.g., конокрад
asciilifeform: there is, i suppose, 'rustler'
mircea_popescu: it did. including for the feminist (ugly tomboyis streetwalker that hates men) and for the woman in tech (pickpocket distracting the mark by playing the whore) and so on.
mircea_popescu: but... meanwhile "they sanitized the slums", resulting in social sterility.
asciilifeform: i dun think anyone remembered to tell the slums they've been 'sanitized'
a111: Logged on 2016-12-07 15:31 asciilifeform: 'well ~i~! know now that i'm not an acorn. but do THE SQUIRRELS know??????'
mircea_popescu: !#s "five points"
mircea_popescu: ok, well, there was once a place in new york worth going to. meanwhile...
mircea_popescu: "clean the slums" very specifically means -- an effort by the early pantsuit to remove local autonomy from the poor. yes they'll be just as poor -- the important point is to make sure the landlord is one of us not one of them.
asciilifeform: this is the exact colonization algo, tho, applied domestically
mircea_popescu: the situation where manhattan may well be run by goldman sach's own boss tweed but five points is run by will poole and dontcha forget it is well anathema to the democrat corruption machine.
mircea_popescu: !#s "know nothing"
a111: 106 results for "\"know nothing\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22know%20nothing%22
mircea_popescu: turns out there's a lot of interesting us history "nobody ever knew".
asciilifeform: this 'sanitization' btw is how they wrecked the cities, why larger part of bmore looks like dresden '45
asciilifeform: and plenty of folx knew. but it is exactly same picture as in mircea_popescu's 'vina batranilor'
asciilifeform: they knew. they sat on arse.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pet many times remarked 'they knew, they watched own neighbourhoods turn into darkest africa. but never said anything to me and siblings growing up'
mircea_popescu: the reason it is vehehehery important for the kids to keep being distracted by "technology" aka bimbophones is that ... well... if they ever were to look up from zee angry birds...
asciilifeform: what, exactly, they'll do ? 'he'll email you his fist...'
mircea_popescu: you never know what the kids will do. this is the definition.
asciilifeform: sorta why they put the resources into bonsaikittenization
mircea_popescu: "a deal can be anything" etc
asciilifeform: but for some reason even for orc deal it is always 'house in miami' and never 'burn miami'
asciilifeform: the vhsamerica lure still works, i have nfi why, but it worx
mircea_popescu: orcs are slow.
mircea_popescu: you know they're STILL visiting rome ? or venice ?
mircea_popescu: for centuries large open air garbage dumps, yet the call of the blood calls on.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform confessed to a cabbie that he wants to move, and cabbie looked as if asciilifeform grew a cock on his forehead
mircea_popescu: o yeah ? you should see when asciilifeform is not asciilifeform but female 20 years his junior. WITH TITS!
asciilifeform: then you couldn't find the signal about noise floor, lol
mircea_popescu: !!pay diana_coman 1.475
diana_coman: mircea_popescu> orcs are slow. <- from my personal experience this is actually a rather reliable empirical measure of how much someone groks reality as is; the analogy would be as to how far away they are from it, hence how much it takes for the "light" to travel aka them to see it; for some the splendours of Rome are visible only now so they still hold today's Rome to be the greatest thing; others are still seeing the Habsburg
diana_coman: might; or the EU ...mhm, dunno, peace; or whatever in between; at the other end one... is ahead of it so can see already where the future is
mircea_popescu: lol, i shall agree, barb notwithstanding :DS
diana_coman: asta-i alex branza moale adica?
mircea_popescu: fellow identieis me as you know, "scenariul pesedisto-antenist". right ? on the basis of something he's read, or w/e, encountered in his daily lyf.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman aha! lol.
mircea_popescu: identifies*
mircea_popescu: in nucet, the argument is that the empirical measure described is reliable until relied upon, at which point it is unreliable immediately and without remainder.
mircea_popescu: the thinnest of ice on the signification river.
diana_coman has trouble getting herself to read past the title even, given the...vibes of the whole thing
mircea_popescu: but why ? he, alex softcheese, a rotten reed just like milord bacon, has thought just like anyone ever thinks.
mircea_popescu: "but for the grace of god, there think i"
diana_coman: what grace? what think? what...I??? where?!! lol
diana_coman: "M-am considerat nicusorist o buna bucata de vreme, pana in clipa in care mi-am dat seama de ridicolul situatiei" <- bwahahahaha
diana_coman: well, at least there's so much more ridicule patiently waiting for him to notice it...
diana_coman: si dai si lupta nicusorule...
mircea_popescu: diana_coman reference to john bradford quote.
mircea_popescu: prior, evidently, to autodafe.
mircea_popescu: and in #trilema better homes and gardens, today's breakfast idea : cut open aguacate (green plox, not the black jewishabomination), remove seed, replace with thinly sliced blue cheese (aoc, plox, not argentinisms) and balsamic vinegar in some proportion. yum!
diana_coman: myeah; I meant that I don't quite see the basis on which this guy "sees" the similarity; but I'll admit I was being harsh
mircea_popescu: i'll tell you : he's heard some things, and what i say seems similar. in that sense, guess what ? it is.
mircea_popescu: and besides, he has 0 experience interacting with only-living-romanian-billionaire ; and plenty of experience interacting with... what, irinel columbeanu ? recall the trilema foundational myth ?
mircea_popescu: "everyday substitutes for categories as provided by tv"
diana_coman: ahahah; I'm out of touch with whatever columbeanus are current
diana_coman: (n.r. : Mircea, eu nu vorbesc nici la nervi cu atatea cuvinte NSFW cum ai scris tu, nu le vreau nici pe blog. Le-am sters de mana, dar un pic de atentie pe viitor poate nu strica
mircea_popescu: yes, well... ? who knows, maybe i got paid coupla hundy by orlando nicoara. god knows everyone else did, yes ?
mircea_popescu: perhaps i hear about how they came up with terrorism bs re this latest http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-30#1718821 ie adrian sirbu and instead of pointing at him and laughing, "ti-am zis ca ti-o sugi, fraere ???" im like all you know, impressed or something.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-30 19:33 mircea_popescu: so after reich and slavski, stalin executed slansky, and malenkov beria to no longer bother him with the brush.
mircea_popescu: nobody looks back in 2017 and goes "shit, someone knew how this was gonna end back in 1997"
mircea_popescu: first of all not the "victim" of "his own success" as it's called.
mircea_popescu: in practical terms : the spy is well advised to be polite to the doorman ; because the doorman will still have his job when the spy won't have his anymore.
mircea_popescu: the original discussed whores, but whatever, let's talk about boys for a while.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732301 <<< i honestly have nfi what you're on about this ISP thing, I don't recall ever promising anyone to deliver such a thing, or mebbe I was asleep or something?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 12:07 mircea_popescu: "stuff that doesn't exist yet" in the sense of the milking of tomorrow when you own a cow is not "stuff that doesn't exist yet" in the sense of davout's isp that davout neither owns nor will but for 0 reasons feels within himself a swelling indicating that he's just as good as one who does, and therefore in a small manner, as if by contagion, he also will. because he "could".
mircea_popescu: no breach of promise is alleged.
mircea_popescu: at issue is the valuation of items that dun exist.
davout: well, my point re buttfinex is that they're simply selling you promises
mircea_popescu: retrospectively.
davout: whether they come from their organic liquidity or from someone else's liquidity
mircea_popescu: the way real estate trading works in uncivilised (ie, non torrens) places is that you gotta examine the ownership chain to establish whethere the owner is selling what he claims (property free and clear) or otherwise "promises".
mircea_popescu: somehow the entire ukistan real estate market has little problem identifying the latter case as a scam.
davout: exchanges only sell you promises, nothing else
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
davout: buttcoins-on-an-exchange are definitionally not buttcoins-in-your-wallet, they are promises to put buttcoins in your wallet should you ask nicely
davout: or did i miss something?
mircea_popescu: that much is so.
davout: how are buttcoins-on-an-exchange different from promises from that exchange?
mircea_popescu: that's not the issue.
davout: so what is?
mircea_popescu: when i go and sit down in a restaurant and ask for the menu, a certain kind of promise is made. when the waiter doesn't go to the restaurant's kitchen but across the street, sits down with my order and waits for the waiter to approach him, a different kind of thing was executed than was promised.
mircea_popescu: yes, "going into restaurant means you'll eat food made by someone". but i didn't go into a commissions store ffs.
davout: that's like saying because there's bread on the menu you expect bread be made in house
mircea_popescu: if it said "homemade bread", i do.
mircea_popescu: and incidentally the disparagement of sysco-powered pitstops is based on exactly this
mircea_popescu: "bitch, i can buy supermarket crap on my own tyvm"
davout: so, there's no such "homemade" mention on buttfinex's menu is exactly my point
mircea_popescu: there can't not be.
mircea_popescu: their simple existence (or rather, evidently fraudulent pretense to existing) is the claim whole.
mircea_popescu: there isn't such a mention on, eg, coinmarketcap.com. which is why we aren't having this discussion about that ~useless website ; but about the useless and fraudulent bitfinex.com exact equivalent.
davout: i still dun see
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ye.
mod6: were you around in '11 or '12?
davout: mircea_popescu:
mircea_popescu: mod6 he was around yes.
davout: whoops
davout: mircea_popescu: say i start selling buttcoins, is it fraudulent if i source them elsewhere?
mircea_popescu: do you source them before you sell them or after ?
davout: if it was the latter, would it be fraudulent just on account of me taking a risk?
mircea_popescu: would you advertise yourself as "bitcoin seller" or as "commission-powered bitcoin hunter of future bitcoins and advisor extraordinaire evanghelizist at large" ?
davout: my point is that taking risks isn't fraudulent if you're able to eat whatever losses you're exposing yourself to
mircea_popescu: whenever something is taken to the marketplace under a label that doesn't match the content, fraud has been committed.
mircea_popescu: davout your claim is false.
davout: isn't that what the mpoe bot was essentially doing?
mircea_popescu: rape is still a crime, even if you only indulge in it in those juridstictions where paying off the father after the fact is a legal way of extinguishing ~the claim~ against you and you're rich enough to pay more than you can fuck.
mircea_popescu: no, and at every juncture. mpoe bot was specifically financed, by bonds deposited etc.
davout: with a last resort payer
mircea_popescu: yes, and advertised as such.
davout: so you did take a risk
mircea_popescu: so : being rich protects one from action on fraud, on the basis of being able to make restitution and only as far as that lasts.
mircea_popescu: bitfinex evidently isn't rich enough.
mircea_popescu: which is the problem with this "im trading fraudulently in the hopes i'm rich enough to not suffer the consequences".
davout: their ability to face the consequences of the risks they're undertaking is not something i can meaningfully argue, i have nfi how rich they are
mircea_popescu: and this is exactly the substance of the "will come to grief" comment. the sort of mental situation that creates the approach in the first place is generally guaranteed to eventually sink it past the point of safety.
mircea_popescu: ie, if X thinks P = "hey, ima trade fraudulently because i'm rich enough to afford covering up for it", the probability of X later thinking P' = "undertaking excessive risk on the basis of extant capitalization is viable in spite of its obvious unviability" is high. because while P' is patently insane whereas P is merely occultly insane, nevertheless P' is just a watered down version of P and consequently "of lower psychologi
mircea_popescu: cal pain".
davout: i see your point
mircea_popescu: aite then
davout: hard to stop when it seemed so easy in the first place, even though it *was* factually safe in the first plae
davout: *place
mod6: i disagree.
davout: wai
mod6: If I place my bid, "100 BTC @ 1.00 USD", and your trade engine tells me that "Trade Executed", I expect immediate settlement/delivery. Anything else is scam.
davout: how would that work if your trades are simple insertions recorded in a DB ?
mod6: (unless it says otherwise, in clear, plain-text right there and I am aware that the coins that are listed on the orderbook are not actually *there*, right *now*)
mircea_popescu: davout "immediate" doesn't mean "in so and so $magic number time interval". immediate means, without intervening steps.
mircea_popescu: ie, absent mediation.
davout: ftr fractional reserve is really not what i was discussing in the first place ...
davout: bbl
asciilifeform: who remembers the 'why not s.nsa take preorders!11' thread.
mod6: i.
asciilifeform: ~same item.
mircea_popescu: same item would have been "why doesn't s.nsa claim to have an item it doesn't and sell it, like butterfly labs"
mircea_popescu: preorders as such are a few steps closer to sanity than this.
asciilifeform: well yes. we didn't take orders until conveyor physically rolled.
asciilifeform: because otherwise shitfinex an' pay with фуфло.
mircea_popescu: a deal can be anything. a stupid deal, or a deal of no economic value or relevancy, such as me offering for sale my palace on the moon, with the footnote that as far as i know there's no palaces on the moon and if there were i don't know of owning any is one thing. fraud begins later on.
asciilifeform: the cost of selling moonpalaces is to become known as a seller of moonpalaces.
mircea_popescu: well you don't have to do it exclusively. but sure.
asciilifeform: !#s bob bridge builder
a111: 10 results for "bob bridge builder", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bob%20bridge%20builder
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
mircea_popescu: it's entirely within the realm of the conceivable that on a long enough timeline anyone ends up selling a nonzero quantity of palaces.
asciilifeform: the contrary would require telepathy
mircea_popescu: THAT is what the whole "i'm rich, pay off for it" protection is for.
asciilifeform: how else buyer and seller could possibly have exactly same notion of what is being bought and sold..
mircea_popescu: well, contracts.
asciilifeform: contract doesn't come with a magical spell of +9000 literacy, unfortunately
mircea_popescu: no ; yet you'll be amazed what feats of comprehension can be achieved with a set of 26 predefined symbols.
mod6: haha
asciilifeform: just as it is conceivable that , e.g., despite FG comes with schematics and agonizingly pedantic description of what it is, more than enough for martians to replicate it to last resistor, there are prolly still folx who were unpleasantly surprised
asciilifeform: e.g. pete_dushenski and his crapple usb
mircea_popescu: i expect he was unpleasantly surprised by apple.
asciilifeform: i'd hope.
asciilifeform: btw diana_coman didja ever solve the riddle re ubuntu ?
mircea_popescu: ima go play with dogs, bbl
mod6: c-ya
diana_coman: asciilifeform, if you mean the usb trouble with fuckgoats it was on *centos*
asciilifeform: did it resolve tho?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 13:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cjLi5/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ^ pete_dushenski ( and other bbet nostalgiators )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, well, for various definitions of resolve; I'm satisfied that problem was as identified i.e. pl2303x vs pl2303
asciilifeform: i prolly should note ftr, for the truly lazy, there exist serial-to-ethernet boxes. they cost roughly what FG itself costs.
asciilifeform: ( and you will radiate yer seekritrngbitz for however many kilometre )
asciilifeform: the other solutions, in ascending order of sanity, is to find a usb ttl dongle that works with yer kernel, a kernel that worx with mine (or other) ttl dongle, and a pc with actual serialport.
asciilifeform: this is addressed to all fg users, not diana_coman specifically.
asciilifeform: btw : truly, genuinely spiffy pc mobos ( e.g. pcengines 'APU' series ) have ~on-board ttl serial port pins~
asciilifeform: i.e. suitable for direct connection of FG.
asciilifeform: on apu1 -- j3 and j19
asciilifeform: ( see manual )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, one can patch the kernel to work with both pl2303 AND pl2303x; but otherwise yes, obv is obv, either actual serial port or otherwise finding a combo that works
asciilifeform: trinque ^ et al ( and other pcenginesists )
mod6: worth noting, thanks alf.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: naive orc asciilifeform picked rs232, 1960s-era protocol, because he actually thought 'no one! will have to patch kernel', can you believe.
asciilifeform: FG will work with, e.g., pdp8, sov. bk0010, romanian z80 clone mircea_popescu played strip poker on, but apparently not with recent pc on recent centos...
asciilifeform: world's most compatible electrical interface short of 220v plug, apparently nao notsocompatible, because generous helpings of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-26#1632664 meanwhile
a111: Logged on 2017-03-26 15:03 mp_en_viaje: basically a novel vector of imperial attack seems to be this "let's take republican items and ~EXPAND~ the downstream so that siberian river attack is then feasible".
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, I should get my '80s cobra then? centos 6 is not even recent tbh; but otherwise yes, I believe re no need to patch
asciilifeform: diana_coman: anything that knows how to eat 115200baud,8,1,noparity -- will eat FG.
asciilifeform: schmidt-trigger inputs, low <= 2v, 2.5v <= high <= 5v , approx.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. you won't burn it unless really try )
asciilifeform: btw if anyone REALLY needs a 9200 baud ( or other ) baud rate, i ( or for that matter anyone ) can build a replacement cpld firmware image that makes this happen
asciilifeform: just change the value of the divider constant .
asciilifeform: 9600 , that is, lol
asciilifeform: or 14400 etc.
asciilifeform: any standard baudness, look at the crystal and do the arithmetic.
asciilifeform: http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/easteurope_ro.html#cobra << hilariously and unsurprisingly, ro z80 clone had better keyboard than today's 3000+ $ crapbooks etc
asciilifeform: ( not to mention more reliable and usable soft, etc )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, that one, yes! mine was made in-house by my father so I sort of know it more open-box than closed-box in any case
asciilifeform: i think all 1980s micro owners remember moar the insides than outside, lol
asciilifeform: ( with possible exception of crapplemac, which even THEN came in a sealed box with nonstandard bolts etc )
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: znort "finally" ran three times now. if zhe comes back again i won't be overly surprised. like how many other btc corpses, znort surely has nine lives.
pete_dushenski: and 'ello from the pacific coast!
pete_dushenski: i'm in ben_vulpes' neck of the woods more or less, sadly with bizniz to tend to and little opportunity to make house calls to trump's side of the border.
mod6: hai
ben_vulpes: generous neck
ben_vulpes: last time i crossed the border, guard winked us through, saying, "see you in november!"
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i then stand corrected : ran once, and then came back twice to fleece the incorrigible idjits
asciilifeform: maybe will come back 3rd time to fleece the remaining ( who ? down syndrome sufferers ? ) -- or not.
asciilifeform: in other pete_dushenski , asciilifeform issued pet a circa-2000 crappletop with os9 and no nic, she luvvs it
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski ( ben_vulpes ? other old-time crapplists ? ) ever saw open the battery on these ? what kind of cells ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: wouldja believe, i got stopped at the border for extra helping of inspector fidgeting. guess why.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : cans of sprats. but no one confiscated them, or even opened suitcase, but the ritual of putting'em through larger xray magicbox was carried out and the voodoo gods -- satisfied )
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: generous ? i'm hacking in cascadia!
pete_dushenski: mod6: howdy :)
mod6: how goes?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: always lusted after those as a youf but never had much chance to fiddle with 'em. unobtanium for young pete's budget but glad to hear they're still running strong
pete_dushenski: mod6: never better. you ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i lusted and was finally cured when found one at scrap dealer
asciilifeform: tried 6 diff pata ssd in it, 0 recognized
mod6: doin well, thx!
shinohai: oh hai mod6 .... happy Friday! =^.^=
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: "never meet your heroes" (tm)
pete_dushenski: mod6: awesome :)
mod6: happy friday :]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: dunno, you seem pretty satisfied with that mechanical clock
asciilifeform: even tho dollarstore crystal keeps better time
pete_dushenski: heh boys and their toys y'know
pete_dushenski: who needs tramborghini when corolla exists ?
pete_dushenski: leave 'need' to the marxists
pete_dushenski to more meatings, cheers!
asciilifeform: the dark seekrit is that the old rusty dacia in empty street of timis, goes faster than mazerati on washington 'beltway'.
mod6: funny how that works huh
asciilifeform: and its owner -- eats better, sleeps moar sweetly, fucks thrustier.
mod6: haha
asciilifeform: dacia prolly lasts longer, and moar repairable : i saw more than one example from clearly pre-ceaușescu times
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 15:11 asciilifeform: in other lollamatics, https://bitbet.us/bet/1399/bitcoin-to-top-6000-usd-in-2017/#c7559 ( blocks archiverbot , http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FTOCH/?raw=true ) >> znort finally ran-with-the-moneyz
asciilifeform: well pre-fall-of-ceaușescu at any rate
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have nfi over what, iirc there were a few hundy btc in limbo
mircea_popescu: ah misread, it was 1.71 to 1.56
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 15:32 asciilifeform: btw : truly, genuinely spiffy pc mobos ( e.g. pcengines 'APU' series ) have ~on-board ttl serial port pins~
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732541 << or could simply use fg as is, neh
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 15:40 asciilifeform: btw if anyone REALLY needs a 9200 baud ( or other ) baud rate, i ( or for that matter anyone ) can build a replacement cpld firmware image that makes this happen
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was thinking in case someone wants to literally connect to pdp8 or other item that capped out under 115200
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732547 << the cobra was relatively advanced/later.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 15:53 asciilifeform: http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/easteurope_ro.html#cobra << hilariously and unsurprisingly, ro z80 clone had better keyboard than today's 3000+ $ crapbooks etc
mircea_popescu: i had to have custom fucking made kbd replacement put into teh old style timisoara-made z80 clones
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform for instance had a 486 in 1990s that couldn't speak 115200 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did they come with , bk0010-style 'chiclet' ?
mircea_popescu: basically these thin plastic pill style things lemme see if i can find one
mircea_popescu: eventually they ended up coming that way from the factory. orig kbd was utter shit.
asciilifeform: aaaa yes chiclet
mircea_popescu: including failure mode where it self-typed
asciilifeform: wouldja believe at one time it was thought to be the worst physically possible kbd. but never underestimate crapple, pinoneer of drawing-only keyboard.
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm satisfied ipad/tablets worst possible.
mircea_popescu: but yes, at the time this was it.
mircea_popescu: technology, ever progresses.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : 1980s micros, esp in orcistans, tended to have kbd resembling that of cheap chinese air conditioner remote today )
mircea_popescu: diana_coman iirc the cobra had 80kb ?
asciilifeform: 80 is princely
asciilifeform: sure it wasn't 8 ?
mircea_popescu: my originals had 48
mircea_popescu: no im telling you, this was later/advanced model
mircea_popescu: made at brasov.
mircea_popescu: went into production 1988, then 1989 it was all over.
mircea_popescu: imported chipsets iirc too.
asciilifeform: from where ? ddr ?
mircea_popescu: and a very short run, iirc documentedly only ~1k produced.
mircea_popescu: so a primo collector item.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, "iprs" was the comp dealing. mostly german / swiss contacts yeah.
asciilifeform: i'm not aware of a swiss-made z80 set having existed
asciilifeform: but hellknows.
asciilifeform: ddr defo existed. i have one here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "swiss" in this context means refloated via switzerland
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you remember the colour ? ( black plastic ? or ceramic white and gold cap ? )
asciilifeform: of the chipz that is
mircea_popescu: the mold was made in ro oh.
mircea_popescu: i don't even know i ever had one. by the time they were more or less available i got ibm pc
mircea_popescu: but iirc it had a full cp/m os to o
asciilifeform: hm i distinctly recall a thread where mircea_popescu and z80
asciilifeform: tapes broadcast on tv etc
mircea_popescu: definitely. i still have the old tim-s'n
mircea_popescu: somewhere
mircea_popescu: (notably, item got broken into while on display in cccp in 88, stolen mobo)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732558 << afaik there were no outstanding claims after either of these
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 16:19 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i then stand corrected : ran once, and then came back twice to fleece the incorrigible idjits
mircea_popescu hasn't been following the story.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732564 << they've gotten very "thou shalt not open bags, the might of inca rests in remoteness".
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 16:31 asciilifeform: ( spoiler : cans of sprats. but no one confiscated them, or even opened suitcase, but the ritual of putting'em through larger xray magicbox was carried out and the voodoo gods -- satisfied )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732583 << to think timis street empty one must come from not such a good life.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 16:45 asciilifeform: the dark seekrit is that the old rusty dacia in empty street of timis, goes faster than mazerati on washington 'beltway'.
asciilifeform: timis cars... move!!
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in elaborate altcoin scamola world, https://chia.network
asciilifeform: 'Bram Cohen, famously invented BitTorrent' 'proofs of space and time' [many squigglies] 'decentralized, and more secure' 'Install and setup Keybase' etc.
asciilifeform: and naturally, 'Chia Network is a San Francisco-based company' 'Chia will be sold to the public next year'.
ben_vulpes: "eyyy, unsuspecting public, i hear ya like holding bags"
asciilifeform: i still even recall the days when shitcoin artists tried to mask their premining or at least distract from it somehow
asciilifeform: but somehow became 'normal' behaviour in the rat pit, unremarkable nao.
ben_vulpes: which is all regulation buys one: houses built to the minimum standard, and retirees so accustomed to government insulation from possible bad decisions that the entire stockholding class has nfi that paper could be worthless
asciilifeform: gotta wonder, how come none of the audience have the half cup of oil in their braincase to answer the 'here is some lolcatcoin, gimme btc in exchange' with 'if it's so great, why dontcha keep it, and why would you trade it for boring old btc'
ben_vulpes: well there's a whitepaper, that makes it just as good as bitcoin.
ben_vulpes: the corn syrup says maple syrup, that means it's just as good and certainly cheaper at any rate
asciilifeform: gotta luvv the 'i have a tall pile of mathemasturbatory squigglies ergo I Fix Bitcoin' school of derpery
asciilifeform: yesterday i learned that there exists a similar subculture in academia as pertains to 'covert radio' ( see 'olivia' thread )
asciilifeform: massive piles of loose-hanging theoretical 'sub noise floor max possible bit rate' etc
asciilifeform: 0 actionables.
asciilifeform: !!up vlad56324
deedbot: vlad56324 voiced for 30 minutes.
vlad56324: hello
asciilifeform: vlad56324: who might you be ?
vlad56324: newbie, learning a lot from btcbase logs
asciilifeform: vlad56324: consider making a key and regging in wot ?
vlad56324: yes going to do
asciilifeform: vlad56324: say a bit about yerself while you have the microphone ?
vlad56324: i knew bitcoin on 2015, trilema blog in the past week, aside from that i'm just an average joe
vlad56324: irl i work at a bakery
vlad56324: english is not my main language
asciilifeform: lol mine neither
asciilifeform: where do you come from, vlad56324 ?
vlad56324: italy
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a pretty solid command of it lang; if you ask him very politely he might answer something.
vlad56324: what i would like to ask after reading the logs: what is a safe linux distro to use for day to day computing?
asciilifeform: i'll answer this one : there isn't one.
vlad56324: basically i'm on ubuntu since a lot of time, then after reading i've discovered some useful networking instruments such as tcptrack
vlad56324: and saw the hell going in and out my pc w/o reason
asciilifeform reads 'tcptrack' manual and bewildered, why is it needed ? what's wrong with ' netstat -a ' ?
vlad56324: i would like to ask: there is some specific distro that by default doesn't need to communicate out of my lan?
asciilifeform: all of them, if you take out the nic from your box, lol
asciilifeform: but no there is not a sane distro by any sort of reasonable standard
asciilifeform: a few of the folx here use heavily modified gentoo-derived items
asciilifeform: but none of it is a thing that you can 'download, install, forget' etc without working with own hands
vlad56324: i mean, i like and think that there is no harm about having some ARP request and dhcp stuff, but then, i realized that even if i was with closed browser, doing text editing, there was traffic going outside my lan
vlad56324: this is meant to be secure?
asciilifeform: take, e.g., the above recipe, and build a box where the only soft is what you put there deliberately, with own hands.
asciilifeform: it isn't a cure but is a treatment.
vlad56324: ah ok, like linux from scratch
asciilifeform: and throw out the kde's, gnomes, similar garbage.
asciilifeform: at the end of the day you should have a box where the question 'why is this on my machine' should never have to be asked
vlad56324: nice
asciilifeform: it will still be possible to be surprised at 'why is this thing, that i put there, doing $x' . but this is a substantial step above the pig farm where you have a bowl of unattributable slop.
vlad56324: then i saw some folks that prefer freebsd "for security" but never understood the reasons behind this
asciilifeform: vlad56324: nostalgia. 10yrs ago or so it was still appealing ( smaller, simpler, less rotten . )
vlad56324: may i ask if there is some particular real advantage with freebsd?
asciilifeform: see above.
asciilifeform: at one time it was small.
asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
asciilifeform: ^ see logs.
vlad56324: thanks
asciilifeform: vlad56324: asking today for 'which distro most secure' is rather like asking re which apartment block in chernobyl zone is most habitable
vlad56324: you know what: it seems to me that with 56k it was very easy to have some decent "fine grained" control over the packets
asciilifeform: i.e. the question has an answer, but the phrasing of the question makes the answer inevitably misleading .
vlad56324: now with broadband it seems that everyone has the permission to grant the shit out of my pc in terms of TCP connections
vlad56324: and this scares me thinking about of real security
asciilifeform: consider that in the age of 1990s microshit, it was not necessary for a box to have modem at all, to be infected ( just as today )
vlad56324: ok and another thing that was really a curiosity after reading the logs
asciilifeform: the fault, to borrow from shakespeare, 'is not in our packets but in ourselves'
vlad56324: intel ME
vlad56324: basically i understood that there is this... kinda backdoor
asciilifeform: don't buy intel. or amd made in 2011 and after.
vlad56324: but if i generate entropy with my paper + pen, am i on the safe side or still intel can theoretically fuck me?
vlad56324: (paper + pen then input on PC)
asciilifeform: vlad56324: if nic is plugged in, enemy has remote control over whole box at all times. ( if not plugged in -- collects, e.g., keystrokes, and disgorges on demand later. )
vlad56324: that's creepy as fuck. Consider that a couple of years ago i was feeling safe generating paper wallets on a online ubuntu distro
asciilifeform: ( 'remote control' in the physical sense, greater than your own, he can read 'unused' pages of ram from last warm boot, rewrite arbitrary sectors on hdd, etc )
asciilifeform: !!up vlad56324
deedbot: vlad56324 voiced for 30 minutes.
vlad56324: so true cold storage should be on a dedicated computer, correct?
a111: Logged on 2017-05-02 12:22 asciilifeform: Framedragger: if you think they use distinguishable magic packets, think again
vlad56324: not one that you boot with a live cd w/o internet
asciilifeform: vlad56324: see mircea_popescu's essay re 'airgap' .
asciilifeform: vlad56324: also 'cold' normally implies the use of non-electrical item ( e.g. paper )
asciilifeform: once you load it into a comp, it is 'hot' again.
vlad56324: You want all new hardware, don't reuse stuff that was already online
vlad56324: i really not have understood this part
vlad56324: and not understood full disk encryption flaws
diana_coman: mircea_popescu> diana_coman iirc the cobra had 80kb ? <- hmmm, iirc 58 keys but I can't say I'm 100% certain
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i think he meant kB
asciilifeform: as in, addr space
diana_coman: oh, oh; as far as I know there were 2 versions at least and one of them with 80kB, yes
BingoBoingo: <vlad56324> what i would like to ask after reading the logs: what is a safe linux distro to use for day to day computing? << Minix 2 is prolly closest
trinque: good enough for intel's ME
asciilifeform: it dun particularly matter what yer running if the enemy lives on the bus, no.
trinque: http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/04/intel-me-way-of-static-analysis.html << "It would seem that ME 11 is based on the MINIX 3 OS"
asciilifeform: gotta luvv, incidentally, the 'huffman compression' thing. 'we can't decompress because nobody has the table'. except if you had instrumented sticks of ram, that can be read out of band ( i.e. without cooperation of the mobo and its contents , through a second hole ) you could quite easily restore the entire image ( which sections get read , in what order ? concatenate'em. )
asciilifeform: and at same time 'but the RAM region used by ME is not accessible from the OS' goes away.
asciilifeform: 'analogue hole' motherfuckers.
asciilifeform: if nobody's raped'em through it, it is because evidently nobody can be arsed.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732747 << If you have a Minix3 that is too much Minix, that's almost a whole Fedora of Linux
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 20:40 trinque: http://blog.ptsecurity.com/2017/04/intel-me-way-of-static-analysis.html << "It would seem that ME 11 is based on the MINIX 3 OS"
mircea_popescu: and in other tears of modernity, "I was formerly a PhD student at Max Planck Institute for Intelligent Systems, Tübingen, Germany, under the supervision of Bernhard Schölkopf and Stefan Harmeling, where my research focus was image denoising. I have achieved state-of-the-art results using neural networks. I am currently co-founder at TasteHit, a web analytics and personalization startup. We aim to create a unique browsing ex
mircea_popescu: perience tailored to a visitor's taste, using machine learning."
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 18:21 ben_vulpes: "eyyy, unsuspecting public, i hear ya like holding bags"
a111: Logged on 2017-10-26 17:11 mircea_popescu: anyway, there's still an open thread god damned it. so re "in the hope they'll achieve usg agency status" above : the final socialism, usg's "ourdemocracy" came up with a gamified nationalization process : they naturally confiscate the domain leaders in all domains, under the guise of you know, "pension fund investments" and "consumer protection law enforcement". ie, there's a faux money and a faux legal prong which make sure
mircea_popescu: not liek the public's doing much investment these days. approx on par with good soviet of 1987, had special retainer out of salary for "investments".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732656 << you should read the "seo expertise/information products" stuff sometime.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 18:25 asciilifeform: gotta wonder, how come none of the audience have the half cup of oil in their braincase to answer the 'here is some lolcatcoin, gimme btc in exchange' with 'if it's so great, why dontcha keep it, and why would you trade it for boring old btc'
mircea_popescu: template pretty much is "pay me clerical fee for the styory of method to make $random-figure". whole fucking thing is based on wsd ; which is the problem with tards, fail to distinguish the stories they tell themselves from reality anymore.
mircea_popescu: "i want to believe!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732674 << hey, bakery better than the crapple store.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:05 vlad56324: irl i work at a bakery
trinque: guy who can announce what he does without pissing himself also a plus
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7180.01, vol: 16280.20064890 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7247.2, vol: 63495.49522234 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7099.0, vol: 5008.96541161 | Volume-weighted last average: 7225.54283551
BingoBoingo: Still Crashing
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732685 << same reason people use perl instead of hacking sed awk and grep together every time.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:12 asciilifeform reads 'tcptrack' manual and bewildered, why is it needed ? what's wrong with ' netstat -a ' ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732693 << the danielpbarron eulora thing is intended as work-in-progress os basis for eulora (the mmorpg). it is not specifically secure yet ; it is however cleanner, in that less spurious / unnecessary / unknown or incomprejhensioble stuff included.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:17 vlad56324: this is meant to be secure?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732711 << of course. back in the z80 days the whole memory could be printed out, wouldn't even take a whole book. more like what today passes for one, ie 40-50 pages' worth.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:22 vlad56324: you know what: it seems to me that with 56k it was very easy to have some decent "fine grained" control over the packets
mircea_popescu: people could and routinely did read the whole memory content.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:26 vlad56324: but if i generate entropy with my paper + pen, am i on the safe side or still intel can theoretically fuck me?
BingoBoingo: Grain fineness is one of those things that scales. If you want good rice start with a few tons rather than pounds.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732737 << do you understand how the original stuxnet item propagated ?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 19:44 vlad56324: i really not have understood this part
mircea_popescu: ah he's not here anymoar.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732752 << such ram is found in every "cyber forensics" lab.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 20:45 asciilifeform: if nobody's raped'em through it, it is because evidently nobody can be arsed.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz of all time : the pre-collapse of pantsuitistan scholarship of the anglo "peasan't revolt" (item where they beheaded the lord chancellor/treasurer/all cambridge robes they could find etc) was that MAJOR SOCIO-ECONOMICAL and POLITICAL!!! development OF GREAT IMPACT!!11
mircea_popescu: however, post-collapse, the scholarship on the same topic is "probably unimportant nonevent".
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: isn't it great for a free and open society to enjoy a vigurous academia which, like the brain on the healthy body, encased in its grey old stones, can lead through the bog of nonsense towards that enchanted high plateau of truth and sparkling clean springwater on the side ?
BingoBoingo read that as bong water
BingoBoingo: Just fit the academia theme
shinohai: Trying to celebrate someone's birthday over skype really sux
shinohai: Though taking a drink every time the video buffers is fun. Wheeeeee!
davout: drunk IRC is best IRC
shinohai: ikr?
shinohai: "It's kosher!"
mircea_popescu: nothing could be kosherer than cocksharing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732785 << on the contrary, it is not publicly available for any kind of money ( and would need some gnarly custom silicon, to produce )
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 22:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732752 << such ram is found in every "cyber forensics" lab.
mircea_popescu: yes well
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu or anyone else knows of anything resembling this item off-the-shelf -- plox to link.
mircea_popescu: "cyber forensic lab" aka the usg owned-and-operator "truefax" producer for usg court system.
asciilifeform: there ~does~ exist that rig with the freon bottle
asciilifeform: but is barbaric
asciilifeform: ( you freeze conventional ramstix and read out in specially built reader )
asciilifeform: about 10k usd, and you need 1 per stick type.
asciilifeform: and some % of bits will flip
asciilifeform: goodenuff for inquisitor, but painful for reversing.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/minigame-smg-october-2017-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), October 2017 Statement
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732293 << I think I see what you mean. In my case the meaning would end up being "x are never routed through y, ever". I could then end up regretting this if I one day encounter the situation where changing that meaning would result in an overall better process, but, alas, I cannot change due to downstream dependence on that meaning
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 06:36 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-02#1732274 << not exactly. exception becomes semantically meaningful, then others end up building applications on the meaning, then you're stuck supporting unintended downstreams.
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