Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-08-11 | 2016-08-13 → ↓
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/08/11/the-sorts-of-questions-scandinavian-journalists-ask-about-maidsafe-answered/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The sorts of questions Scandinavian journalists ask about MaidSafe, answered.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 03:53 mircea_popescu: go to eeurope, better deals and marginally less retarded peoplez.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 03:50 ben_vulpes: lol is that the first mircea_popescu imglink with no actual nudity?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1518777 << cokeman's cokecastle is wired for ethernet! mega-modeeern..
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 03:57 mircea_popescu: well, since i've already done non-nude, let's do non-coke. http://www.4tuning.ro/bloguri/ganduri-octanice/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/72832.jpg
asciilifeform: aand what's in the green 'gogo' ?? mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: shitty alcoho-gel
asciilifeform: would anyone
mircea_popescu: there is much you don't know, young alf.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, romanian pua in effect : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuXxIrarHEc
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1518720 << bwahaha i have irc logs dating back to 2004 ! there is, preserved in cd-rom, a record of the transformation of me from atheist to christian
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 00:58 mircea_popescu: (dunno who for instance recalls 2012 back when "logging irc" was "a bad idea" by "community agreement". freenode would still hold on to that idiocy hadn't it died meanwhile.)
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/08/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-tmr/ << News Roundup Xtend (TM)(R) will iterate every week where nothing independently important happens but where the accretion of nothings may offer some lols
BingoBoingo: Next edition will be News Roundup Xtend 2 (TM)(R) followed by News Roundup Xtend 3 (TM)(R) etc.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-tmr/ << Qntra - Not Quite News Roundup Xtend (TM)(R)
mircea_popescu: diazepam is not "anti seizure drug". it's just about valium, ie, housewife popcorn.
mircea_popescu: $rated gabriel_laddel
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated gabriel_laddel 2 at 2015/04/11 14:35:30 << almost a year later, he got a larger chunk of exercise ball down his gullet than anyone i know of.
mircea_popescu: $rate gabriel_laddel 2 McClim & stuff
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It is indeed used that way. Works on the GABA system.
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
mircea_popescu: da fuck deedboot!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo sure, and alcohol is "an alternate green fuel"
mircea_popescu: $rate gabriel_laddel 2 "McClim & stuff"
mircea_popescu: trinque ^
BingoBoingo: Well most things that break seizures work as housewife popcorn.
mircea_popescu: $v 8A30C0809960E3CFEF2B791E665096AB45D61141568F9CC58FC3435D48B53B2D
deedbot: mircea_popescu updated rating of gabriel_laddel from 2 to 2 << "McClim & stuff"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo look, the woman ain't got no seizures. she's got a habit, left over from the days she was stuck in scandal cast playing kerry washington (created by shonda rhimes).
BingoBoingo: Well seizures are a benzodiazepine withdrawal symptom, goes with the habit.
mircea_popescu: (for the concerned watchers : i googled "scandal" looking for that idiotic talk show where some old douche keeps being oh-so-amazed at teenage sluts and whatnot. this worked.)
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron so consider publishing it. you got a blog neh ?
mircea_popescu: "Coinbase has continued their apology and solvency tour " bwahahaha mkay
mircea_popescu: ftr this is a good idea bb.
BingoBoingo: It's time. Last week lots of good news. This week just fallout and noise mostly related to last week.
BingoBoingo: And its been discussed for a while without opportunity appearing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1518811 << folks with habit, take pillz, not bloke with syringe at the ready in public
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 12:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo look, the woman ain't got no seizures. she's got a habit, left over from the days she was stuck in scandal cast playing kerry washington (created by shonda rhimes).
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "folks" is a 70+ yo woman.
asciilifeform: what of it
mircea_popescu: why the fuck do you think prince died as a ball consisting half of psychoactives by mass ?
mircea_popescu: habits have this habit of running away from you.
mircea_popescu: she's had the habit for 40+ years.
asciilifeform: p was morphinist iirc
asciilifeform: like goring.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what you imagine, there's not really that vast variety of substances.
mircea_popescu: there's uppers and there's downers. add "nothings" a la caffeine/nicotine etc and that;s just about it.
asciilifeform: well yes.
mircea_popescu: it's not alice's wonderland where the potions actually are fascinatingly unknown.
asciilifeform: not outside of the late alex shulgin's basement at any rate
mircea_popescu: just like when you pop the cover off some program you either find javascript or c.
asciilifeform: it remains fact, that handler with battlefield trauma injector is not a sop part of whatever habit.
asciilifeform: there is, interestingly, another possible explanation for the photo. injector like this (actually two, one being the very same diazepam) are part of u.s. army response kit for organophosphate war gas.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Micheal Jackson had cardiologist for getting high? Why would Clitler not have Neurologist?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'get high' is typically done off stage ?
BingoBoingo: ONE HAS TO MAINTAIN THEIR BUZZ!!!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you think this because you live in your cave.
mircea_popescu: every "rockstar" with a habit i've ever encountered had one of these.
asciilifeform: with syringe loaded in one hand, following the 'star' around, publicly ?
asciilifeform: link to even one photo ?
mircea_popescu: now, the ancients didn't think it wise to have blind emperor ; why the postmoderns imagine it acceptable to have figurehead with habit...
asciilifeform: hey it 'worked' for hitler !1111
mircea_popescu: suppose i get hold of her and keep her in a room for half a day ? what then ? "i can't recognise the person i voted for!!!" ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform link to even one photo of your mom's cunt or else you weren't ever born!!11
mircea_popescu: social convention prevented publication of plenty of material for many years.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> with syringe loaded in one hand, following the 'star' around, publicly ? << Autoinjector is not mere syringe. Preloaded just like star is.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i know what it is, had one in my desk for some years
mircea_popescu: and you're not even a president!
asciilifeform: it came with the desk
BingoBoingo: Boring epipen or something else?
asciilifeform: pralidoxime iirc.
asciilifeform: inherited with the office.
mircea_popescu: lol what, in case someone farts real bad ?
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated and broadly uninteresting news, https://archive.is/K6glt
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the fella with the flashlight appears to be pointing to the other handler, re where to stand
asciilifeform: not to clitler.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: antidote was from previous inhabitant of the desk, who did field tests
asciilifeform: incidentally, sov gensecs had a dude with diazepam injector follow them around. but the thing was not for gensec, but for crowd bozos rushing at him
asciilifeform: there was a public incident where yeltsin had some old hag run out at him and she got needled
asciilifeform: (if anyone has handy link - phf ? - post plox.)
mircea_popescu: not unreasonable, though not sure i'd use diazepam. why not ketamine, watch them go all weird lol.
asciilifeform: same reason why not knife.
mircea_popescu: anyway, propofol is the right move for the purpose. but w/e.
asciilifeform: you also dun want to generate a corpse.
asciilifeform: whole point is quiet and deniable removal of hooligan etc.
mircea_popescu: needn't be deniable. need be humiliating, need cause memory loss.
asciilifeform: (propofol has narrow therapeutic window)
mircea_popescu: sure. how long do you need ?
asciilifeform: humiliating - have intruder seized and publicly horsewhipped
mircea_popescu: the attacker being belligerent outside of his kill zone is an asset to you, not to him.
asciilifeform: modern rulers do discreet/deniable/quiet, not humiliating/educational.
mircea_popescu: can then leak youtubes of "crazy person"
asciilifeform: anaesthetic won't produce 'crazy flail'
mircea_popescu: hence why i wouldn't use diazepam. god gave you propofol / ketamine for a reason.
asciilifeform: again, narrow therapeutic window, corpse is likely
mircea_popescu: not bloody likely, no.
asciilifeform: spring-loaded injector !
mircea_popescu: and if your security team needs more than 5 minutes you need a new security team.
asciilifeform: no adjustment for weight of 'patient' --> corpse
mircea_popescu: no dude. that's how it works with lone redditard in his forsaken den. if some guy just rushed your subject, he's in the middle of a media blitz and the ambulance is right there.
mircea_popescu: he'll be fine, if ventilated.
asciilifeform: why not curare then.
asciilifeform pictures ss agent with blow dart gun
mircea_popescu: cuz i culturally dislike the subculture.
mircea_popescu: ie, "god didn't give you curare, it gave it to those monkeys."
asciilifeform: wai wat subculture, the indians ?!
mircea_popescu: anything south of mexico, im discovering.
mircea_popescu: i think the earth makes people stupid here.
asciilifeform looks at globe, verifies that usa, where stupidity is manufactured and shipped elsewhere, is north of equator
mircea_popescu: the south americans at their peak are scarcely qualified to import us made stupidity. that's why they're so proud when they manage.
mircea_popescu: heck, do you know that their favourite part of the us (to the point of scarcely even knowing other parts even exist) IS MIAMI ?
asciilifeform: betcha 9/10 orcs' favourite city in usa is miami.
mircea_popescu: da fuck is wrong with them.
asciilifeform: because that's where orcish quislings get (or at least in imagination, in jam-tomorrow promise) retired to.
asciilifeform: for their services.
asciilifeform: not, understand, in the flesh
mircea_popescu: dude... a shitty place with hot wet weathert and a bunch of old farts in "gated communities".
mircea_popescu: it's like ohio-arkansas.
mircea_popescu: im sorry, did i misspell arkansaw ?
asciilifeform: ciskensaw.
BingoBoingo: Miami is just St Louis with beaches
BingoBoingo: minus winter
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: an orcish quisling who weights, even in his own mind, anything, tends to be an older fella already
asciilifeform: at the time of his quislinging
asciilifeform: and what do you expect him to yearn for but 'warm place to shit and six types of sausage in the store'
mircea_popescu: dude forget that. chicks with no practical hope to anything selling shoes in shitty shoe store aspire to go to miami.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, why" "oh it's so great"
asciilifeform: diffusion from orc media.
mircea_popescu: must be.
mircea_popescu: where orc media = word of mouth.
asciilifeform: the shoe chick is not target audience, no.
asciilifeform: for miamism.
mircea_popescu: "what mom overheard while doing the cleaning in so-and-so's house who was talking on the phone to her highschool friernd who is married to the brother of the undersecretary of trabajo"
asciilifeform: how else.
asciilifeform: 'encrypted email address' !!111111111111
mircea_popescu: they're insane with the gossip, by the way. do you know how often i see this scene where woman is talking the ear off posted policeman, who is doing his best to politely ignore her ?
mircea_popescu: just about daily occurence.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1518874 << 'therapeutic window' refers to the diff b/w a 'therapeutic' and fatal dose.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 12:45 mircea_popescu: sure. how long do you need ?
asciilifeform: not duration.
asciilifeform: ok this is gold:
asciilifeform: 'Law enforcement was able to investigate postal records and discover that Almashwali had purchased the postage for the two heroin packages. Farooq was apparently involved in “other mailings.” During the investigation, law enforcement officials were able to discover that the encrypted email address associated with the Area51 AlphaBay profile was linked to social media accounts. When they recovered the email’s password they disco
asciilifeform: vered the same password was used for other online accounts. The documents specifically mention Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook – all three of which link back to Farooq. It’s concerning that this was considered an OK practice. Although unconfirmed, Reddit users who have purchased heroin from both vendor’s claim that both men use the same return address.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh get out of here. ketamine ld50 is like half a gram/kg. propofol 1/10 that. in either case you can't pack enough of the stuff in a shot to kill anyone.
mircea_popescu: that's why they're used in the first place, inept nurses don't kill patients with them.
asciilifeform: in what hospital are there nurses with ketamine ?
mircea_popescu: most surgery wards ?
asciilifeform: not in usa (at least, not outside of army)
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking essential medicine.
mircea_popescu: autoinjector shot is what, maybe a shade over 2ml ? which includes the carrying fluid. insufficient to kill a lapdog.
asciilifeform: at any rate is still seems like an odd choice for 'inject crowd bozo', you still get a limp, not flailing, man
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Ketamin used in us hospitals increasing as alternative to general anesthesia because lolwyers
mircea_popescu recommends experimental assay, 8:1 mix of ketamine/propofol in solution.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i hear it's pretty great if you like watching the surgeons work on yer guts
mircea_popescu: they give you an ipad, you'll never even know you were there.
asciilifeform: (not to be confused with the other typical american 'anaesthesia' where you get to ~feel~ all of the cuts, but cannot move or speak to complain)
mircea_popescu: "dude i finally passed that hard level in bubble casino" "How ?" "manned up and got that castration procedure wife kept wanting finally"
mircea_popescu: "now she can go off the pill, and i have an elite highschore!" "sweet!"
asciilifeform: dulap!111111111
phf: ahaha, i know people with such ridiculous k tolerance, i'd like to see cops shoot at them
mircea_popescu: lol, ketamine bbs.
mircea_popescu: (fwiw, historical romanian guard types did fire large gauge shotgun loaded with salt at kids/thieves/etc)
phf: right right
phf: some grandma shooting k at kids
mircea_popescu: low powder load ; salt corns. it is actually surprisingly effective.
phf: also miami is where da clubs at, it's like a trashier, "let's go to the beach" version of new york club scene. let's have merlin bronques say a few words about it http://www.lastnightsparty.com/miami/
mircea_popescu: no but that's exactly my point.
mircea_popescu: typical argentine has all the pretense of small time german krownprinz and all the sabiduria of rural south cali gangster.
mircea_popescu: http://www.lastnightsparty.com/another1/slides/8Y0A2813.JPG << looks just like medellin, colombia or what.
mircea_popescu: (also, props to all the genius "DRM" nonsense they installed. fucking clearly it works huh.)
phf: well, terry richardson popularized the style of photography. sort of trashy "amateur" photography with good lighting, vomit and tits. it all looks a lot more polished when you're shit faced
mircea_popescu: the tits are superb, btw, best silicone i've seen in a while.
mircea_popescu: but they ran out of blondes in the us huh.
mircea_popescu: http://www.lastnightsparty.com/another1/slides/8Y0A2858.JPG << this is EXACTLY how Old Whore looked at that age : a transvestite prostitute.
asciilifeform: this was what, vampire masquerade ?
phf: i think blonds are out at the moment, everyone wants a quirky hipster brunete, miami only makes it worse with all the latinos. i know a few blonds that actually color their hair. it's trully barbaric age up here.
mircea_popescu: http://www.lastnightsparty.com/another1/slides/8Y0A2881.JPG << ahaha lol oops, i take it back. they got blondes. from 1970. check out the ex trophy wife!
mircea_popescu: phf and this because kim totally fucking won the assculture war.
mircea_popescu: i know of no us-born individual of similar accomplishment as that armenian.
phf: hehe, to answer asciilifeform's question from long time ago, you want wife like kim, so when you go to da club all the hoes look like your hubby
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nuts, vet bills > clothes for kid ?
asciilifeform: i have deeply nfi
asciilifeform: whole thing is a riot
mircea_popescu: "I have to say that I do not find it very ediffying that people in this financial bracket should be taking up a day of court time over a sum which to them, though not to others, is objectively so small. However, agreement has not been reached and I must rule." << HOLY SHIT
mircea_popescu: judge can't spell, and has the unmitigated audacity to say THAT ?
mircea_popescu: i'd fucking call a hit. what the fucking shit is this. omfg.
mircea_popescu: how can these people live ?
mircea_popescu: the indignity. illiterate peronista judges. is there enough alcohol in the "civilised world" ?
BingoBoingo: Do they actually live?
mircea_popescu: what a fucking outrage.
mircea_popescu: http://www.lastnightsparty.com/another1/slides/8Y0A3739.JPG << dude... really ? is that actually intended as an insult ?
mircea_popescu: http://www.lastnightsparty.com/another1/slides/8Y0A3931.JPG << ahahahaha ok, this shit's epic. check out the milliONEaire!
mircea_popescu: thanks phf, i have been entertained by last night's party
mircea_popescu will find this joint one day, give a girl a five and ask for change.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo mind if i write a qntra detailing justice holman's breach of the european declaration of human rights and other matters ?
BingoBoingo: go for it
mircea_popescu: (note the sheeps at end is intentional, because ships)
BingoBoingo: What of the man worth 1 pence who sues for a whole pound?
mircea_popescu: i imagine he gets it by default.
mircea_popescu: (it is not technically possible for a man's claims to exceed his wealth, because wealth includes the value of all claims by definition)
BingoBoingo: Well, in that case, those Argentine cowsies you are so fond of have it all
BingoBoingo: Maybe they can get NEW cardboard to further advance their claims!
mircea_popescu: totally.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 588.2, vol: 2488.81502903 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 584.015, vol: 5501.61862 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 587.25, vol: 6914.70674848 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 588.0, vol: 4904.97976219 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 588.024896, vol: 114071.37530000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 586.94, vol: 1255.26863115 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 588.76, vol: 1098.18394942 | OKCoin BTCUSD last: 588.064, vol: (1 more message)
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/brexit-fallout-illiterate-british-justice-enacts-breach-of-european-declaration-of-human-rights-into-british-legal-precedent/ << Qntra - Brexit Fallout : Illiterate British Justice Enacts breach of European Declaration of Human Rights into British Legal Precedent
mircea_popescu: nice! thanks asciilifeform for the tip!
mircea_popescu: and plox notify the parties named in that paste BingoBoingo . twitter, email, w/e.
BingoBoingo: The ones from the story or is there another paste?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the one alf linked, i know no other.
BingoBoingo: There was also the one the story came in
mircea_popescu: well yes, lemme fish it out
mircea_popescu: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: how goes ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: working.
mircea_popescu: good for you.
gabriel_laddel: phf: is your logging engine open source / can it be so that we can have less shit logs on #clim?
gabriel_laddel: phf: there is no search right now and it makes the whole development cycle hellish
mircea_popescu: lol. you heard the man phf ; gotta have your tool.
mircea_popescu: whether os or not os needn't be resolved ; but gabriel_laddel should be able to acquire a copy i say!
asciilifeform: last night trinque posted his
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: do you have an intern who wants to make a couple hundred bucks here and there writing CL for McCLIM?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I want the wwwtron
mircea_popescu: damn we still need that jobs thing.
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: if so, have him drop into #clim and talk to beach, who is handling fundraising / distributing funds atm
mircea_popescu: what, in like...fiat ?
gabriel_laddel: he is currently paying jackdaniel several thousand out of pocket to help
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... why handle donations in shitcoin in the first place.
gabriel_laddel: because some of us need fiat to eat
mircea_popescu: that may be, but this is scarcely a reason to breach your privacy and etc.
mircea_popescu: whose job is it of the usg's what jackdaniel gets paid and from whence it came ?
gabriel_laddel: I'm not in charge of fundraising, talk to beach re this.
gabriel_laddel: also, jackdaniel is a pleb / etherhuffer (at least politically, and I really appreciate his work on mcclim)
mircea_popescu: ok, so he can get paid in ethereum, what of it.
gabriel_laddel: ... anyways
mircea_popescu: importing bitcoin into your financial affairs works its magic just by being a node ; doesn't have to be the whole process. actually, can't even be whole process, that's gavintardism. but yeah, no big deal.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo worx.
BingoBoingo will need to dust off copy of "spam like a pro in 24 hours"
gabriel_laddel: were I in charge of fundraising, I'd not be doing it as an anon anyways but rather calling syscog, ravenspack etc and trying to get donations in the 10ks rather than pocket change, but w/e
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel hey, they're people, with a brain right ? can benefit from discussion of this as any other topic.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: that's one perspective. another is that I'm extrodinarily lucky that they're doing anything useful on mcclim at all
mircea_popescu: yeah, i can see that one :)
gabriel_laddel: there have been discussions of re-implementing it on top of the web, ncurses etc
gabriel_laddel: have had to quash them as best I can
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: for my edification, plox to summarize what, exactly, you lot have done to mcclim
mircea_popescu: hey, understand, i'm not knocking you/it or anything. jus' sayin'.
asciilifeform: (you have a spiffy www but the clim looks much as i found it in 2007)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform best i could tell they... started.
mircea_popescu: half the job right ?
asciilifeform: but started ~what~
mircea_popescu: ah. that. well...
mircea_popescu: im curious too, turns out. started what gabriel_laddel ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: redid the website, removed all the crap backends, gas2serra fixed a threading bug that caused irritating visual artifacts, I went through the whole of the CLIM archives and pulled out all the useful info, the codebase has been totally re-ordered, truetype is now the default, bugfixes relating to not pulling in the correct X keyboard
gabriel_laddel: configuration after a setxkbmap change...
asciilifeform: truetype?!~
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel but what's the goal or how are you proceeding or anything like that ?
asciilifeform: what happened to 'do WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING STACK of graphics henderson-style' ?
gabriel_laddel: don't worry about it, I'm taking care of it
gabriel_laddel: one thing at a time
asciilifeform: of what ? rewriting truetype in cl ?
gabriel_laddel: No. Cutting X/cario/opengl/truetype out of the picture completely.
asciilifeform: i dun even recall tt being ~in~ the picture in '07.
gabriel_laddel: talking directly to the monitor / whatever and implementing CLIM on that.
asciilifeform: used to be just x
asciilifeform: (and readily substitutable with any raster display)
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel could probably get a considerable head start on clim cleanup just by unwinding version by a decade
asciilifeform: sorta like we did with trb.
gabriel_laddel: The fonts look like shit without truetype and that makes it impossible for me to make money using CLIM.
asciilifeform: you already cannot make money with it, the athena widgets look like dog barf
gabriel_laddel: on my dead harddrive there is a bunch of half-implemented useful things like clim-spec-in-clim, the "navigator" which is a reflective search apropos, I've taken climacs and made it usable for day-to-day work...
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I am already paid to make money with it
asciilifeform: i suppose in abstract you can 'make money' with anything
gabriel_laddel: am installing masamune for a client (by hand) right now
phf: oh for fucks say, client side font rendering. welcome to 2002, can i fuck up your stack
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude...
asciilifeform: but folks who will eat athena will eat fixed font also.
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you tried actually getting some quality type 1 fonts and setting them up ~with your x server~ and seeing if you like the result
gabriel_laddel: phf: no.
gabriel_laddel: X has to die, this is non-negotiable
gabriel_laddel: all of the business that I do inbetween now and then is simply churn to get there
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: keep in mind that a 'replacement for x' that doesn't do the same job is not a replacement.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel opengl too ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: yep.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: which is to say, if i cannot connect over network to machine across the planet and have the window FILL THE ALLOTED SPOT on my display, CORRECTLY, 'replacement' is junk.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel huh. listen, probably not actionable right now, but in general and on the long term if you write me a crystal space replacement in lisp ima definitely bundle it in eulora.
asciilifeform: ditto if it insists on transmitting whole video frames.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't know why gabriel_laddel is saying what he's saying. truetype has already been rewritten in lisp, and that's what mcclim uses for fancy truetype rendering. it's expensive as hell, and equally pointless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the difference between your spec and my spec should be obvious. is it ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you're going to be waiting a while in any case, so I wouldn't get to worked up about it.
phf: last time i checked there wasn't cairo/freetype/etc. in mcclim to begin with
asciilifeform: phf: possibly it got inserted because the unusably slow thing were thrown out ?
phf: asciilifeform: or possibly gabriel_laddel doesn't know what he's talking about
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yer thing needs realtime 3d iirc.
gabriel_laddel: phf: sorry, what exactly is unclear about what I'm saying?
mircea_popescu: i guess it's not obvious ;/
mod6: mornin'. many lulz reading this lastnight: http://trilema.com/2016/pisi-dot-ar-y-otras-temas/
mircea_popescu: cheers mod6
phf: gabriel_laddel: you're saying that mcclim has FFI to cairo/freetype/opengl, i don't think that's true, care to link to relevant code
gabriel_laddel: phf: that's not what I'm saying. truetype is in CL. McCLIM is 100% CL. But it /communicates/ with X, which has cario and all this other nonsense integrated with it, and it's causing problems.
phf: gabriel_laddel: cairo is not integrated with X, nor is freetype. both are client side rendering libraries, that send computed bitmaps over the wire
gabriel_laddel: there is no meaningful way to interrogate the X server about its state, so when it crashes (and it does from time to time), it really gets in the way of the whole lispm experience
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i'm looking forward to seeing what happens when you wake up and realize that this applies to the entire linux.
mircea_popescu: phf he means you can't use them without x, integrated.
asciilifeform: and not merely x11.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I have woken up and realized this?
asciilifeform: has not, apparently, fully sunk in yet ?
gabriel_laddel: but I need a stable platform from which to redesign computing from the ground up
gabriel_laddel: and run the various simulations that I have to run
asciilifeform: 'stable platform' is linux box on which you cad new iron.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wouldja let people live their lives!
phf: gabriel_laddel: first mistake is to do so much pointless rendering on the client. from the few minutes of talking, it's quite clear that you're prepared to walk the path of "linux on desktop" to the same result
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hey, i didn't show up at fella's house with megaphone.
mircea_popescu: you two make miserable fathers, let it be stated in the permanent record.
asciilifeform: 'salvation of the drowning is work for the hands of selfsame drowning'
mircea_popescu: whatever wisdom one has is divided in two categories : that which must be asked for ; and that which needn't be.
mircea_popescu: maintain this distinction.
gabriel_laddel: phf: I intend to do away with the whole notion of "client & server" in rendering for CLIM
gabriel_laddel: function calls and nothing more
gabriel_laddel: though tbh, I plan on paying someone else to do much of this
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel so who renders, the client or the server ?
gabriel_laddel: neither because those notions no longer exist?
gabriel_laddel: you simply have a CL process that talks directly to the hardware
mircea_popescu: but humour me. in my own terminology, which'd be ?
asciilifeform: and what happens if i want to rasterize on a device that isn't my lcd ? (e.g., printer, phototypesetter, lcd on mars..?)
gabriel_laddel: tough nuggets
gabriel_laddel: you can use the old, shit clim
asciilifeform: terry davis school of thought ?
mircea_popescu: is the cl process that talks directly to the hardware part of "kernel" or part of "user space" ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: it is not yet clear as I don't know enough about the kernel to know if I can do away with the whole "user space" thing.
gabriel_laddel: in the sense you're thinking about things, probably the "user space"
mircea_popescu: well so then do you understand what phf means about "Welcome to 2002" ?
mircea_popescu: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: you gotta form a habit to voice self you know.
asciilifeform: re the 'doing less work'
gabriel_laddel: key is not handy atm
asciilifeform: it is very easy algorithm for 'optimization' - simply declare that a good chunk of the job 'does not need doing' and cut the corner
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform onion link in naggum's message - gone.
phf: gabriel_laddel: i understand your end goal, but the steps that you're taking to get there are going to result in worse design. you'd be better served in understanding clx first, making ~that~ work well by working to its strengths, and then replacing clx with own system. by then you'll have a snappier system and less primitives to write. i highly recommend spinning up VLM/genera and seeing how they do unix interop. it's really quite
phf: elegant
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: was my interpretation that in 2002 people were dong a lot of client side font rendering?
asciilifeform: the problem is that you have not in fact done the job, but arbitrarily proclaimed that your steer is 'just the same as a bull'
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel the reason kernel exists is so that random crap doesn't steal your machine.
asciilifeform: 'same but cheaper', plastic gears, want to go there ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: my understanding of the present situation is that the linux kernel is here to stay, as it is a result of the way that the cee machine works, and contains drivers for a bunch of useful hardware
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm not sure what "job" you have in mind, but suspect it is different from the one I have in mind
mircea_popescu: this is debatable. but the fundamental problem with allowing userspace hardware access is that it can cut you loose from your own computer.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: 'replace x11'
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the msdos-style 'apps will write directly to graphics card' is not a replacement.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a ms-dos lisp would not, at this point, be a bad machine.
asciilifeform: it can be, in ~your~ head, because you do not use typesetters, or remote displays, etc. and can arbitrarily proclaim that they are 'irrelevant'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: until i want to send a pcb print to a laser printer.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker. YOU YOURSELF USE SHIT THAT DOESNT INTEROIPERATE
mircea_popescu: jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: bring this argument again once you're pdf free, ye hear ?
asciilifeform: i use all sorts of junk.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: look, if the machines sell, they sell
mircea_popescu: so then stfu and let him use all sorts of junk too!
asciilifeform: the thread is about ~design~ of future junk !
asciilifeform: this is quite separate matter from 'which old junk to use'
mircea_popescu: problem being that you're all done designing yours and are now designing his, too.
asciilifeform: let, then, gabriel_laddel waste half a decade , as i did, learning what he could instead learn in 10min.
asciilifeform: why not.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I will note that if someone with sufficent knowledge of x.org stumbles into my life, I'd be happy to pay them to solve the issues CLIM has with it
mircea_popescu: i think the last person who had that locked themselves in a cellar and rages there still.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'll tell you why not : because until he asks, you can;'t tell.
gabriel_laddel: Terry A Davis wrote a whole graphics system that doesn't communicate with X.
asciilifeform: the part i dispute, gabriel_laddel , is that it is WHOLE
asciilifeform: it is not 'whole graphics system'
asciilifeform: but a cheap imitation.
asciilifeform: a ~whole~ system lets me preserve the semantics of the items to be drawn, for maximally compact transmission over a wire, and rasterizing on a display of my choosing
asciilifeform: with, say, 100,000x100,000 res.
phf: i think the disagreement can be bridged on architectural grounds. i think gabriel_laddel's lack of understanding of clx and ideological refusal to understand it better is going to result in the worse final design. there are examples of x11 done right, that are much easier to port away to native hardware. whether or not "x11" or "no x11" is the final design, basic x protocol provides for a very solid set of ground level elements and also
phf: puts concerns where they matter. (like not requiring client render its own fonts for one)
phf: problem with mcclim is that it went through many 2002 style "for the people" pretifications, that made optimizations, refinment and other aspects of architectural design work much harder than need be
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: can we table this discussion for the time being? I understand what it is that you're getting at, but you don't have (and nor will you have) a clear picture of exactly what it is that I'm doing.
gabriel_laddel: Also, you seriously underestimate the utility of paying other people to do work for you.
gabriel_laddel: And seem to be adverse to making money.
gabriel_laddel: Which, whatever, to each his own.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the reason i sometimes try to 'wake up' young, excitable folk like gabriel_laddel is that they are not yet at a stage where one made various dead-end design choices , that, now locked into, man enters a sad lifetime of justification and 'just wanted to' and 'only a terrorist would throw out my life's work of library'
phf: ^
mircea_popescu: i don't dispute your goals ; merely your very inept methodology.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i very much do not have a clear picture of what you're doing. other than the one fact that you seem to believe 'write directly to video ram' as 'viable replacement for x11'
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if you saw what i do to 'make money' you would barf, and ask for the valium injector from this morning's thread
mircea_popescu: eh this is nonsense. something somewhere will at some point have to write to video ram ; and he's not said much more than that.
gabriel_laddel: exactly. which is why I write CLIM for a living
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: how's this work, you turned it into dissertation ?
gabriel_laddel: ^ ding ding ding
asciilifeform: who pays ?
gabriel_laddel: the client
gabriel_laddel: I have people waiting on me *right now* to sell them masamune machines.
gabriel_laddel: If I could just get the fking replication working..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'most of x11 is unnecessary' is a 20 y.o. heresy, that ends up summing to 'let's do graphics the way microshit does' in all cases.
mircea_popescu: phf define for me the concept of "bridged on architectural grounds"
asciilifeform: i do not want a motherfucking 'desktop'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have serious trouble distinguishing him from a young steve jobs, at this point.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you mean, a bloke wandering around looking for a woz to bamboozle?
asciilifeform: or some other young stevejobs.
mircea_popescu: if you will.
mircea_popescu: note that the woz didn't make the ipad. so that theory lost a lot since 2002.
asciilifeform: woz, broke in a ditch, made very little afaik.
mircea_popescu: woz without jobs => universal remote. and see also site:trilema.com fred quimby
asciilifeform: without money.
mircea_popescu: wouldja stop with the fetishism ? "without money" == "dumb as rocks" and nothing else. not now, not during roman judaeea.
asciilifeform: (and incidentally i have nfi which, the money, or the stevejobs. but to limit hypothesis to the latter strikes me as hasty)
mircea_popescu: any arbitrary pick of my slaves has more money than jobs had when retook apple.
asciilifeform: herr trump was moneyed even when, on paper, 'no money'
asciilifeform: i am speaking of real-life-no-money.
mircea_popescu: aka "excuse-no-money".
mircea_popescu: or w/e, "meta-no-money", if you'd rather.
asciilifeform: more like 'others see 2nd deriv.(your money) as 0 or -'
gabriel_laddel: Gotta run. If anyone has experience with the levano x61 tablet or some other hardware you really like, do tell. I read all logs eventually.
mircea_popescu: you realise that derivative evaluates on bases other than... your money ?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i have x61 here.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: and x60.
mircea_popescu: lenovo ?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: aha
mircea_popescu: oh how cute, even dyslexia, check it out.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what do you need to know about either
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwat
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: ty. asciilifeform: I think that the rotating screen is spiffy, and would love to stop carrying around a notepad + computer
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: see logs for thread re x60/61
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: kk
asciilifeform: iirc i described it in some detail.
asciilifeform: (the 'open' bios is neither open - uses blobs - nor actually works - machine crashes at full cpu load in 100% of case)
a111: Logged on 2016-02-29 16:55 asciilifeform: so at this point i'm satisfied that rms either 1) does not actually use an x60 machine with 'libreboot' ~~or~~ does not program.
asciilifeform: and if gabriel_laddel wants an x61 he can have mine for the cost of postage.
mircea_popescu: that's nice.
asciilifeform: power brick and pen incl.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: "machine crashes at full cpu load in 100% of case" < nevermind then. glad I asked.
asciilifeform: thing is taking up space.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: that was x60!
asciilifeform: with 'libreboot'
mircea_popescu: was a whole thing re rms's supposed ideal machine.
mircea_popescu: a lenovo x60
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: the x61 does not crash?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, i reproduced it
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: neither crashes with vendor bios
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: does the x61 crash running linux?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel the point was that rms made certain falsifiable statements, that alf took the pains to falsify.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: nope
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: spiffy. I'd be happy to pay for postage. Will try and find somewhere to ship it later today
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i ended up reversing the vendor bios on x60, or rather, the particular routine that concerned the hardware whitelist, and nopped it out
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: pgpgram when you do.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: preferably here, and not email.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, he might use an older item with a peculiarly functional set of parts. standardization in hardware is kind-of iffy
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm homeless and that isn't really possible atm
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody uses the stock nic. it was largely the impetus for the bios swap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but stock x60 bios did not permit 'illicit' nics.
asciilifeform: so i cracked it.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: usa post office box is 100bux/yr
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: it'll be shipped to a friend's place.
gabriel_laddel: anyways, bbl
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel you've not actually managed to lose your key, have you ?
asciilifeform: i ain't shipping unless he signs with his $key.
asciilifeform: oh mircea_popescu -- https://archive.is/Mvc6x - enjoy.
mircea_popescu: lol cool.
asciilifeform: most pages are not 'so lucky', but that one was cult hit
asciilifeform: my curiosity is piqued by its disappearance
asciilifeform: also i dun fully grasp her laddel's story
asciilifeform: he has 'clients', is writing dissertation, taking in 1000s in donation, etc
asciilifeform: but is 'homeless' also ?
asciilifeform: how's this wurk
asciilifeform: is on the run, shot the sheriff, or wat.
mircea_popescu: america.
asciilifeform: kokakola, sumtimes WARRRR!11111 etc
asciilifeform: but this? is a first, to me.
mircea_popescu: young fetching fellow living in sunny climate, fucking locals for showers. not that rare.
asciilifeform: when's the last time he $v'd, while we're on subj ?
mircea_popescu: $s "$up gabr"
mircea_popescu: $s "from:gabriel_laddel $up"
a111: 0 results for "\"from:gabriel_laddel $up\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22from%3Agabriel_laddel%20$up%22
mircea_popescu: apparently...never ?
asciilifeform: looks like 0 ?!
mircea_popescu: im too lazy to dig up the old logfiles.
PeterL: would not be in chan, $up is to deedbot
mircea_popescu: phf you importing those already!!11
asciilifeform: iirc phf has whole set in there
mircea_popescu: $s "from:gabriel_laddel !up"
a111: 0 results for "\"from:gabriel_laddel !up\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22from%3Agabriel_laddel%20!up%22
mircea_popescu: of course... he wouldn't do it in cahn in the first place would he.
mircea_popescu: apparently this needs an actual command, $last_check name or somesuch. looks for the last time someone self-authed.
PeterL: maybe a command could be added to deedbot to return last time verifyed?
mircea_popescu: actually no - not a command.
asciilifeform: 'FreeNode-#bitcoin-assets.log:Nov 22 01:21:09 * assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel'
mircea_popescu: trinque can you modify deedbot so instead of "<deedbot> gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes." it says "<deedbot> gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. Last self-authed on : <timestamp>" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as for deedbot - apparently never.
asciilifeform: not once.
PeterL: ah, that was before B-A/Trilema split
mircea_popescu: well guy went homeless or somesuch.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-22#931508 << the logged line immediately after his last known selfvoice.
a111: Logged on 2014-11-22 06:21 punkman: another fun exercise, trying to install Linux on 3TB disk
asciilifeform: now it is conceivable that he was here when my fiber was down or etc.
asciilifeform: other folks - welcome to grep own l0gz.
asciilifeform: herr laddel would not be the first unlucky fella to lose key and then be 'too lazy to reach for it' for yearz.
PeterL: or too ashamed to admit loss of key
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't have the 2012 ones yet
asciilifeform: which is sad, because by this time he could have rebirthed himself with new key and worked long enough for new key to add up to a man
phf: but otherwise it's to the early days of b-a
mircea_popescu: phf wait, how does this work ? i recall i sent you a batch, or was there a problem there ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i haven't had time to integrate it, my spare cycles were going into bot rewrite
phf: (mostly because those logs will have to have negative id's, i assume there are bunch of places, where ids are handled with parse-integer)
phf: i wrote a loader for them though, and they load, eating up another 100mb or so
mircea_popescu: well, now and again the matter will pop up anew.
trinque: mircea_popescu: I'd have to start collecting that information, but yes
mircea_popescu: cool. useful because otherwise...
mircea_popescu: iirc yes.
asciilifeform: 'suppose you drive down the highway and you suddenly want to go some nice place you saw just before you pass a forest. you veer off the road, plunge into the wilderness and promptly decide that you need four-wheel drive, a huge cutting device in front of your car, much better shock absorbers, a bigger engine that could actually run on swamp water instead of getting all drowned, and then need an amphibious vehicle to get across the r
asciilifeform: iver on the far side of the forest. you can't get all that right away after you made up your mind to veer off the road, and This Is Surely Somebody's Fault...'
a111: Logged on 2016-02-21 21:23 asciilifeform: as described by naggum, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3144404199547949@naggum.no.html
asciilifeform: at any rate, it is applicable, imho, to herr laddel.
mircea_popescu: yeah, it was part of a discussion of rms/foss/etc ineptitude.
asciilifeform: very, to be fair, easy trap to fall in. 'i just want to y while never letting go of z.'
asciilifeform: 'only a lunatic would suggest that i part with z.'
asciilifeform: 'would have to redesign machine!1111'
mircea_popescu: anyway, i;m deeply unpersuaded of naggum's love for "dynamism"
asciilifeform: 'here, instead i will part with networked displays, which i never used anyway, and shoelaces.'
mircea_popescu: non-static code is rank nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: naggum's 'dynamism' is a very particular thing.
asciilifeform: simply means dispensing with batch compilation.
mircea_popescu: yes. and the reason no allowance for it is made in say v is also very particular.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the two items have nothing to do with one another.
mircea_popescu: his "open car design" is copied exactly off the "no guns" europolicy.
asciilifeform: fella was, incidentally, 'gun nut'
mircea_popescu: "find a better way to do what you want than shooting justice holman"
asciilifeform: (not an easy thing to be in norway)
mircea_popescu: fuck you bitch, i DO NOT WANT to find a better way.
mircea_popescu: i want to plow right through the fucking swamp.
asciilifeform: subj is not about whether mircea_popescu likes to plow through swamp. but about whether roads are unnecessary because let's all buy amphibious bulldozers.
mircea_popescu: seems to me it's rather about how amphibious buldozers are unnecessary because her majesty's engineering corps may one day get around to building a road that goes where I WANT.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the coming of 'justice holman's, preets, etc. is not unlike the fungus in aids patient - it is not there from insufficient antifungal intake. by the time it appears, ought to pick out tomb stone, write will.
mircea_popescu: fuck her scrawny ass with a pineapple.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: naggum was, as you can probably tell, 'roman', or 'man of civilization', 'i'ma drown like a gentleman ! (tm) (r) (brit officer)' etc.
asciilifeform: hence why dead.
mircea_popescu: for the record, if a system had this sort of "semantic indirection" built in where any fuckwad could "redefine OPEN()" i'd burn it and piss on the ashes.
mircea_popescu: fucking hell, windows is preferable.
asciilifeform: 'operator can' != 'any fuckwit can'
asciilifeform: omfg what is so hard about this concept.
mircea_popescu: define "operator"
asciilifeform: operator == the fella who can put the key in the keyhole.
asciilifeform: in front panel.
asciilifeform: that has N notches, yes.
mircea_popescu: you just downloaded bitcoin code. define "operator".
asciilifeform: and no, it doesn't get to 'redefine open' for any other process.
asciilifeform: unless i let it.
mircea_popescu: what is so hard about this concept is that it is not a concept of wisdom but a concept of idiocy. which is to say, it does not belong in reality, but in the masturbatory alt-reality, necessarily inexistent, secreted by overexcited virgins who lived in a basement.
mircea_popescu: you're eschewing the question. "operator=me" has two options : a) not run the code ; b) run the code, giving whoever wrote it operator status.
mircea_popescu: what's your pick ?
asciilifeform: THIS IS IDIOCY
asciilifeform: i pick c !
asciilifeform: code runs in impenetrable prison.
mircea_popescu: which is what, to read it and re-redefine everything in it ?
asciilifeform: that gets clearly delineated choice of operations
asciilifeform: none of which is 'redefine x for other processes'
mircea_popescu: this is something you can say ; but not something you can do.
asciilifeform: not on x86 anyway.
mircea_popescu: you've just said "i build escherian trestlework around it"
asciilifeform: which is why x86 goes to the skip.
mircea_popescu: if THIS is you reason to dislike the x86, YOU go in the skip.
asciilifeform: note, i can do it using two or moar x86 boxes.
asciilifeform: and routinely do.
asciilifeform: and so does mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: you can run a buggy approximation thereof.
asciilifeform: but it is 'heavy' and unwieldy method.
mircea_popescu: unlike you, mircea_popescu doesn't lie to himself about what's going on.
asciilifeform: where is the lie ?
mircea_popescu: in that you're crudely approximating something that's fundamentally impossible - and tell yourselfd this is proof the impossible may be possible! magic! socialism!
mircea_popescu: fucking nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's toilet is in his kitchen ? or not ?
asciilifeform: is the wall a 'lie' ?
mircea_popescu: it's not that i chose not to redefine sink as toilet. is that my sink CAN NOT BE so redefined.
asciilifeform: betcha i could find bacterium that only grows in yer shitter, in your kitchen sink.
mircea_popescu: there is no "bacterium that only" except in the masturbatory alt-reality, necessarily inexistent, secreted by overexcited virgins who lived in a basement.
asciilifeform: 'learn how the world works!' mno.
mircea_popescu: definitionally bacterium will live anywhere.
mircea_popescu: that's what makes them themselves.
asciilifeform: i did say 'grow'
mircea_popescu: go do this experiment for curiosity. plumbing grows ~the same stuff everywhere.
mircea_popescu: there's no "toilet bacteria" ; there is genetic variation, but by geography not by function.
asciilifeform: at any rate it is quite possible to semantically isolate processes inside, yes, one crate.
asciilifeform: with no side-channels.
mircea_popescu: but this for static processes
asciilifeform: that ~nowhere it is seen, is immaterial.
mircea_popescu: not for meaningless labels.
mircea_popescu: generally speaking, i specifically do not wish for anyone to be able to redefine anything ever.
mircea_popescu: that is the policy. any opposition to this, such as "we're now calling niggers afroamerican" or such as "naggum redefined OPEN() to work on his system" is EXACTLY the same thing,
asciilifeform: spoken like a fella who never personally engineers anything.
mircea_popescu: and that thing is unmitigatedly evil ; not to mentionm the fundamental source and ther self-replicating living body, of our present predicaments.
mircea_popescu: you want to change the world, build on top of immutable primitives, like in v. don't go around pretending "light" now means something else than yesterday.
asciilifeform: an immutable record of past imperfections is not same as immutable pineapple to eternally sit on.
asciilifeform: nobody asked for mutable past.
asciilifeform: (not asciilifeform anyway)
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is this "redefine OPEN" bs then!
mircea_popescu: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: ye found yer key ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: it is not lost. Simply out of reach atm.
gabriel_laddel: costs me about 300 usd to go get it, so am waiting
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: how come it's - apparently - been out of reach since nov. 2014 ?
mircea_popescu: lol you got kicked out of rented apt ?
mircea_popescu: WITH backrent ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I have 3 closed bank accounts.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I authed many times in 2015
mircea_popescu: your management skills amaze.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: neither mine, nor - it would appear - anyone else's log - has record of this
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: will do some grepping at some point, but for now - work
asciilifeform: btcalpha does show gabriel_laddel as having rated several people since '14.
asciilifeform: so there's that.
mircea_popescu: a right, that works.
asciilifeform: but plox find yer key gabriel_laddel , esp. if you want the old lenovo thing, i'ma only ship to signed post addr.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: that's going to have to wait 1-5 months then, depending on my fiscal situation
asciilifeform: thing sat on my shelf for a year, can sit moar.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: also, I'm not taking thousands in donations. jackdaniel is being paid several k to work on CLIM
gabriel_laddel: were I fundraising for clim, yes, it would not be via 'crowdfunding' and yes, the numbers would be in the 10ks
mircea_popescu: what's keeping you ?
mircea_popescu: well then that kinda work should eat through your 300 overdraft in a short time.
gabriel_laddel: nothing is straightforwards when you don't have a bank account
gabriel_laddel: (among other things in my life that are totally fucked)
mircea_popescu: "they sure wouldn't have built this very versatile car, which they talk about a lot more than where they have used it and for what" << now this is fo sho valid criticism of the whole demographic.
PeterL: MP-in-my-head says: get a girlfriend and use her bank account
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as per the 'shit hanging off the side' thread.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
gabriel_laddel: I had a girlfriend. was staying at her place when parents were out of town etc
gabriel_laddel: too much work
mircea_popescu: PeterL not a terrible plan.
asciilifeform: ah yeah, iirc, karate gurl
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519312 << I found one in this channel, here is the logged line preceeding it: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-16#1453037
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 15:52 asciilifeform: other folks - welcome to grep own l0gz.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-16 06:38 mircea_popescu: folding proteins for instance is essentially a search over a very large graph space
trinque: gabriel_laddel: y'know I used to do this "fuck everything but work" thing, trying to get somewhere.
trinque: no sleep, caffeine, so on.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron sorry, what did you find ?
trinque: was never homeless, but it's a difference of degree.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: nope. 'Apr 16 02:19:58 <BingoBoingo> $up gabriel_laddel'
trinque: you'll actually get more useful work done if you take time to fix your life.
trinque: the brain needs control over its environment to function best
mircea_popescu: Apr 16 03:51:01 * deedbot removes voice from gabriel_laddel Apr 16 03:52:58 * deedbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel << ah yes.
asciilifeform: ah there.
danielpbarron: yeah and then the 30 minutes are up, he loses the +v, and then gets it again with nobody saying up
asciilifeform: at any rate, fella is to be encouraged to find key !!
mircea_popescu: course that could be anyone upping him in pm ?
asciilifeform: would you let your cock, if it unscrewed, sit around in some closet ??
danielpbarron: seems I can't $up someone in private
danielpbarron: unless i lost auth, lemme see
danielpbarron: $up zfx
deedbot: zfx voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: trinque> you'll actually get more useful work done if you take time to fix your life. << i support the notion. life's not a sprint but a marathon, and attempting to build anything serious on the very rotten shifty bases here described is not unlike trying to do clim in windows 95.
mircea_popescu: consider that there's more to your tooling than just the software and fix things in priority order.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thing is, he ~is~ doing clim in win95, best as i can tell.
asciilifeform: a win95 known as linux.
trinque: asciilifeform: http://oglaf.com/cockhunt/ << oblig
asciilifeform: and gabriel_laddel if i 'cannot girlfriend because too much work' but the 'work' does not pay even enough to have flea-ridden flat, or post address, i would consider another work...
asciilifeform: but perhaps that's just me
mircea_popescu: perhaps it's just the girls he cavorts with. needy adolescent can be exhausting.
mircea_popescu: kinda why you need more womenz to process that payload.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: women who are uneducatable but intelligent are exausting..
PeterL: is having the girlfriend too much work, or does the too much work get in the way of having girlfriend?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel how's an uneducatable intelligent woman like ?!
gabriel_laddel: older - 28ish
mircea_popescu: myeah kinda towards the end of salvation window.
gabriel_laddel: can memorize anything, rattle of facts about various interesting topics. Totally unable to see things from outside of the box she's been in for N years.
gabriel_laddel: also people who are cowards are no fun
trinque: does "coward" resolve to "you should probably right your ship" ?
mircea_popescu: women are born cowards for very good, fundamerntal biologic reasons.
mircea_popescu: gotta play to the op's strengths not weaknesses.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: nein.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: elaborate what means 'coward' here ? 'won't attempt to live on tobacco alone, in dumpster, with me ' ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: stupid stuff like being afraid of parents "angry about staying out late with strange boy"
mircea_popescu: wait. at 28 ?!
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: east asia ?
mircea_popescu: i confess not my notion of cowardice.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: iran
mircea_popescu: i suspect the subtext there is "you're poor". i've known irani chicks, not exhibited such problems. perhaps their daddy being petrified of me a large factor.
trinque dated one; they're fucking hot
mircea_popescu: can be ; can be.
mircea_popescu: that's part of the whole "o look, latinas in miami" lulz. if you're going to decide to go brunette, there's a shitload better options than fucking south america, and they come from the golden crescent.
mircea_popescu: hence kim the ~armenian~
shinohai still finds yesterday's trilema girl quite fetching.
trinque: could wash her hair
mircea_popescu: too much work.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: an to the "cowardice" thing. girls who are afraid of eg, dropping lsd, but happily eat whatever the doctor hands them, inspite of a boy having them read, OUT LOUD various articles, research on the respective effects == cowards aor stupid.
mircea_popescu: still not my idea of cowardice.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: and what is your idea of cowardice?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: how long you had this gurl ?
gabriel_laddel: Idk, couple months. the lsd thing never came up explicitly, but several things in that vein did.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if answer is 'years' and it still won't eat, either 'not programmable, get a new one' or 'the bad dancer is hindered by own arse' (tm) (r) (iddish proverb)
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I can assure you that the problem here is not me. 'dated' (for some value of that word) a 35 yr chinese woman who had zero hangups
mircea_popescu: sadly not too easy to put in words.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what can i say, if knife won't cut, get new knife, or cut something softer..
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
trinque cackles at this measure of whence the problem
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: there is a concept, ad-hoc, i refer to as 'pressure', but there is quite likely a better and more specific name for it. e.g., mircea_popescu , walks into a village, and the menfolk line up in one column and the wimminfolk in another, the men - pick up rifles, and wait for order, the chix - get on knees, ready to pleez, etc.
asciilifeform: this is because 'higher pressure'
trinque: that'd be dominance eh?
asciilifeform: on other end of the scale, there are freaks of nature who have so little 'pressure', they look for what to chameoleonize to wherever they go.
mircea_popescu: heh not how irl works, because complex interaction in crystalline lattice causes all sorts of strange peribehaviours.
asciilifeform: but in approximation.
asciilifeform: just like rockwell hardness is approximation
asciilifeform: yet useful to machinist.
asciilifeform: though it has no physical existence on its own.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519202 << it's kind of a pun, i think of systems design as landscape traversal. i think there are frequently paths, as is the case here, that hit multiple design goals and have lower overall complexity, better than a seemingly direct path, that has a hidden high complexity. abstract discussions about ideological goals, that don't take into account design space traversal can be resolved by actual taking
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 15:19 mircea_popescu: phf define for me the concept of "bridged on architectural grounds"
phf: the necessary mental steps.
asciilifeform: from my brief sojourn with thickasthieves in airplanes, for instance, i learned that he is a fella of considerably lower pressure, it appeared, than his wife.
asciilifeform: and that this explained some of his very peculiar thought processes.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: anyways, this is an ex-gf, looking for a new knife
mircea_popescu: phf the fundamental problem here is that you misuse words. "to resolve on the basis of" requires a basis, which is to say, something shared. whether right or wrong - i can resolve quantum physics disputes on the basis of coran suras if need be. yet your thing is "this is cool so should be basis". how cool it is has no bearing on how shared it is, you know ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i think asciilifeform and gabriel_laddel goals are very similar, combined together they'll produce an easy low complexity (but perhaps less glamorous) design space traversal path. gabriel_laddel doesn't see it, because he thinks that a certain stop on his path is "dirty" or somesuch, so he wants to avoid it altogether
gabriel_laddel: phf: I just want the fking thing to work and make me some money.
gabriel_laddel: all else is negotiable
asciilifeform: what i see in his approach is a distinctly 15th c., hygiene-via-parfumery approach.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think that it is shared between all designers, it's just that newbs have a very adhoc design space vision, it's better formed with experience
mircea_popescu: so you're a platonician then ?
asciilifeform: it gave us what we have now, and it dun work.
asciilifeform: a kitchen with roaches, and kitchen with-roaches but at given instance in time they are behind closed cabinets and i cannot see them, are not the same item, even if 'functionally' the same from particular camera angle.
asciilifeform: and i can see them buggers through 10 metres of steel.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm actually more of jungian
asciilifeform: if need be.
mircea_popescu: phf but your argument fundamentally is "there's no need for communication because the essence of all things is in all things", which is what that is.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, socrates used questions specifically for that fundamental reason - that understanding may only happen on the basis of what the understander contains, and naught else.
mircea_popescu: a point platon never quite groked, hence his terrible political failures.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: for folks who 'dun care how, just wanna make some moneyz!111' the belching smokestacks of microshitschwitz are waiting.
asciilifeform: presumably you know the address, i do not need to point.
asciilifeform: at usgschwitz also we had all the moneyz you could want.
asciilifeform: and then some.
asciilifeform: the shovels were insufficient, to shovel it.
asciilifeform: so i must infer that gabriel_laddel did not 'just want some moneyz' or he would be there, already, shovel in hand.
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't take it all the way to the cave, i believe that one can tap into shared mythic space which has more to do with human condition than it does with humanless abstract. but for how often i'm misunderstood, i suspect that socratic method is much more effective.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I live in silly-con valley. If I - just - wanted to make money I'd be out doing it.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: aha
asciilifeform: so then, what does gabriel_laddel want ~on top~ of 'some moneyz'
mircea_popescu: well, it certainly is much more effective when stuck with the apparent incomprehensible mysts, as seen here.
phf: :D
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: sane computing, for one
asciilifeform: 'sane computing' dun have a linux kernel or c compiler in it.
asciilifeform: anywhere.
asciilifeform: and there is not a shortcut ladder into heaven that lets you 'save time' by 'using what you have' etc.
asciilifeform: more relevantly , it ALSO does not have a c-compiler-shaped hole in it.
asciilifeform: that you got from building on the latter and then removing.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: we've already discussed this. I'm going to be selling masamune computers + related until the leap can be made from the cee machine to... something else
asciilifeform: nor a linux-shaped hole.
gabriel_laddel: we need masamune machines to design on top of until then
asciilifeform: why not sell bulldozers ?
asciilifeform: or tyres ?
asciilifeform: or cement ?
asciilifeform: at least these things won't warp yer brain for the computer work
phf: mircea_popescu: that point is consistently being driven home. in fact i got to talk lisp to a bunch of random people and had a very visceral experience of the gap. hathayogapradipika says to keep your yoga secret, i.e. don't be a incomprehensible myst. but sometimes i still get carried away. ~some~ people grok me though, even when i start speaking internal experiences.
mircea_popescu: i recall this cca 2014 heh.
gabriel_laddel: under what circumstances is it appropriate to open a deli?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: any and all. go, open
asciilifeform: i will even come & eat there.
gabriel_laddel: when your uncle runs a slaughterhouse.
mircea_popescu: phf this "you already know all knowledge, just, you know, wash" is ridiculous enough, but nowhere the ridiculousness is in starker evidence than in the harem. "so i washed, can i bellydance yet ?" "no, wash more."
mircea_popescu: anyway, the incomprehensible mists were him, not you. who the hell knows what's in the box of a guy who does such contradictory things as alf pointed out. i wouldn't risk much on the theory we share any mythology, and it's not even directly evident gabriel_laddel actually lives meaningfully related to the human condition.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the 'i will pick high-level abstractions and then, much later, find a low-level set that supports them well' is doomed. and leads to, e.g., urbit.
asciilifeform: the only way to have structure that stands up is to begin from the bottom.
asciilifeform: this painful lesson is taught, again and again, for the whole history of the idiot field, but nobody learns.
asciilifeform: because everybody 'i'm a genius and will pick the tower back up and insert hard ground under it because i am better than everyone who lived prior' etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will note that there exists no life of the spirit outside of exactly this "i will pick high level abstracrtion and proceed to allign realia to it"
mircea_popescu: the alternative to this is strictly "the lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft computador from the bosom of the lake"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: have you ever met, e.g., mechanical engineer, who has never heard of alloys ?
asciilifeform: and draws 'whatever, and let machinist pick'
mircea_popescu: yes i have.
asciilifeform: the result is, approximately, american car.
mircea_popescu: romanian train (no need to discuss alloy, there were like 4) ; egyptian car (they'll use the best they can) ; etc. many possible contexts.
asciilifeform: it is not the designer's place to replace the metallurgist. but 'design for manufacturability', for instance, is a thing.
asciilifeform: and requires functional grip on the materials.
mircea_popescu: also sure.
trinque: mircea_popescu: Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing computadors is no basis for a system of computing!
mircea_popescu: you'd think, trinque, you'd think!
asciilifeform: german jet, for instance, famously, jumo and bmw both, did not turn back british largely because it was designed with no mind of availability of materials (can get whatever you like for prototype, but try for production line)
mircea_popescu: complicated discussion.
asciilifeform: hence were few, and what few there were, had mtbf measured in 10s of hrs.
asciilifeform: complicated, but not wholly unrelated.
mircea_popescu: there's an overarching consensus that the germans would have broken britain had they not been cowards and kept up the london bombin.
mircea_popescu: in the end, material shortages decide a lot more than people like to think.
asciilifeform: cowardice has ~0 to do with it, there were jet bombers over london in april '45.
asciilifeform: or rather, bomber.
asciilifeform: singular.
mircea_popescu: no, it's a matter of volume.
asciilifeform: volume, aha.
mircea_popescu: they cut down on losses ; instead of leaning into on losses.
mircea_popescu: that, incidentally, is a good entry into "female, necessary, biological cowardice". what do you do confronted with losses ? wind down ? or pip up ?
mircea_popescu: every domesticated animal winds down.
asciilifeform: wild - gnaws off own leg, aha.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason we have domestic sheep but not domestic mice
asciilifeform: and - if he can - hunter's.
mircea_popescu: so then there's the two and only two available strategies. the psychopath (the more i lose, the more i send, fuck you) ; and the woman (the more i lose, the less i send, may my children cover the earth).
asciilifeform: not even uncommon for same individual to switch between strategies (in, e.g., certain fish)
asciilifeform: re: metallurgy, and 'design for manufacturability', i once heard a vintage, scratchy-record recording of old american engineering, if you will, folk song, where some quasiliterate rube is ruthlessly mocked, and chorus was something like 'triangular drills will drill all his square holes!'
mircea_popescu: plox to put this on your blog. i gotta hear it
asciilifeform: http://genius.com/Jordin-kare-the-engineer-lyrics << appears to be it, or at least variant.
mircea_popescu: (you can, incidentally, obtain polygonal holes - if not necessarily square - with odd shaped bit moving on two different orbits)
asciilifeform: well yes, you can, it is the item referred to.
asciilifeform: just co$$t$.
mircea_popescu: apparently not even folk - jordin kare is the propulsion guy neh ?
asciilifeform: i have nfi where it originated.
asciilifeform: maybe - him.
mircea_popescu: But the tricky bits here are these spheres within spheres, the Klein bottle tanks, the irrational gears
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ok
asciilifeform: btw 'sphere in polyhedron' used to be a standard journeyman machinist exam.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: 'The claimants in this case appeal from the district court’s entry of default judgment for the government in a civil forfeiture action against funds deposited in the claimants’ names in banks in New Zealand and Hong Kong. Default judgment was entered after the government successfully moved to disentitle the claimants from defending their claims to the defendant property under the federal fugitive disentitlement statute, 28 U.S.C.
asciilifeform: § 2466. The claimants appeal the judgment on several grounds, most prominent among them that the district court lacked jurisdiction over the defendant property because it resides in foreign countries, that fugitive disentitlement violates constitutional due process, and that disentitlement in this case was improper because the claimants are not fugitives from the law. Finding these arguments unpersuasive, we affirm the district cou
asciilifeform: ^ gassing of kimdotcom stands.
trinque: now he's going to deedbot torrent hashes and somehow make it all back
trinque: revolutionary blockchain technology
asciilifeform: i have nfi what deal idiot made with which preet to preserve the remaining empty skin husk of his arse.
asciilifeform: ( a practice i suggest to refer to as 'shremming')
PeterL: speaking of which, where is the best place to find torrents?
asciilifeform: from meatspace friend's disk ?
asciilifeform: (warez in the general, rather than 'torrent')
mircea_popescu: in another life /me had set of five jade spheres, hand carved. whole thing about titsized.
asciilifeform: eh by hand it is easy.
asciilifeform: just takes patience.
asciilifeform: nobody gets to be journeyman-anything by doing it with hands.
mircea_popescu: also need a proper sized jade piece, which is rarer the bigger it gets.
asciilifeform: this also.
mircea_popescu: "|I don't see why anyone would insist on a way to do things that does not solves the real problem, but rather solve an ancilliary problem that is a problem only because someone is very stubborn." << the political ineptidude of these people.
mircea_popescu: it is a problem BECAUSE I AM THE BOSS OF YOU ; NOT YOU THE BOSS OF ME.
mircea_popescu: how fucking hard to see could this possibly be ?
asciilifeform: to naggum, mircea_popescu is boss if he is paying.
asciilifeform: and for so long as paying.
mircea_popescu: his "car could go there some other way" requires car user to recognize "other way provider" as boss.
asciilifeform: as described in his cpp chronicles. he largely quit programming for a good while, because disagreed with the use of the abomination.
mircea_popescu: "car goes through your house" requires "other way provider" to recognize car owner as boss.
mircea_popescu: this has naught to do with me or naggum.
asciilifeform: fact is, if konsoomer demands something that is fundamentally stupid, konsoomer is stupid.
asciilifeform: even regardless of whether demand comes with a stack of cash that reaches to pluto.
mircea_popescu: i don't care about the consumer.
asciilifeform: this is not a seekrit.
asciilifeform: and yes, triangular bits will drill mircea_popescu's square holes.
mircea_popescu: naggum's solution to "bitcoin is broken" would be pointedly not to "take over source and discharge the delusional folks "releasing" "versions" in their own mind" ; but instead to "find another way". perhaps what, spam the forums ? to build consensus ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as you know, this is not how he solved 'mule'.
asciilifeform: he solved it the trb way.
asciilifeform: with death ray.
mircea_popescu: so then what's this gunk all about.
asciilifeform: it is about sanity.
asciilifeform: in engineering.
mircea_popescu: sanity in engineering includes confiscation of codebases. something he didn't do with mule.
asciilifeform: not 'bend over and spread arse cheeks for existing state of the art', no.
asciilifeform: but he did.
mircea_popescu: this titanic "start from scratch" nonsense is not of interest
asciilifeform: confiscated emacs, essentially, for a good while.
mircea_popescu: i thought he retreated to cave and wrote own ? oh ?
asciilifeform: he trb'd it.
asciilifeform: at a certain point the heathen emacs surrendered.
mircea_popescu: mkay then. the man's deeds and his words are not alligned.
asciilifeform: possibly because mircea_popescu misreads the meaning of the wordz.
mircea_popescu: possibly.
mircea_popescu: "plain reading", eh ?
asciilifeform: fwiw, i found myself having to examine what n. did, to fully grasp what he said and why.
mircea_popescu: see, this is kinda backwards. normally, one examines what subject says to understand what he did. not what subj
mircea_popescu: did to understand what he "meant" through "redefining what open() means in the middle of the text"
asciilifeform: normally. but from the words i began to suspect that we had been to the same mine fields.
asciilifeform: and it piqued curiosity.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; im putting this off to an exquisitely bad metaphor, with the cars.
asciilifeform: possibly.
mircea_popescu: read in a charitable light, his point can perhaps be salvaged wrt lisp/unix.
asciilifeform: or the hammer-drill from mircea_popescu's latest piece.
asciilifeform: re fundamental tradeoffs of civilization, city, etc.
asciilifeform: (or for that matter mircea_popescu's 'rural and urban' piece.)
mircea_popescu: "I think Free Software and Open Source addicts will get down from their current high and become tremendously frustrated when the obvious problem of having millions of pieces of source code available and they actually can't move in any direction because the ability to make modifications that they have so lauded in the past turn into a very serious problem when much bigger problems require modifications to much larger systems t
mircea_popescu: han the ones people today think are usefully modified locally." << this, for instance, is oddly half-true/half-delusional.
mircea_popescu: it's true foss died ; for which reason it carries little water here. but the frustration is a) the inability of foss to maintain strong immutability in front of organised crime, be it usg or otherwise ; b) the part where it can't actually move is valid, but not exactly for the reason he describes.
mircea_popescu: moreover for an array of half-related, half-unrelated reasons.
mircea_popescu: such as "in lowering the perceived barrier to entry, encourages idiots and degrades median code quality" ; "in encouraging writing over reading, it plays to software's weaknesses against its strengths" scl
asciilifeform: naggum's observation that it was a largely mindless 'protest' movement remains correct.
asciilifeform: if not exhaustive.
mircea_popescu: it's not that "bigger systems require changes" AT ALL. on the contrary : it's that bigger systems do not PERMIT changes some idiots think they are entitled to.
mircea_popescu: yeah but it's a pretty mixed bag once he goes into discussion of it.
asciilifeform: he observed the 'changes idiots perceive they are entitled to' at agonizing length re common lisp standard
mircea_popescu: he has the strong excuse no bitcoin was there. but the main problem of bitcoin as "foss" is precisely this - that various idiots think they may change things.
asciilifeform: when comp.lang.lisp was besieged by loud arsehats demanding to reopen the committee so they could have orc glyphs or whichever.
mircea_popescu: and they have to constantly, painfully, slowly, humiliatingly be beaten down with a large stick.
asciilifeform: naggum is ~the~ go-to source, pre-bitcoin, in my mind, re this eternal war.
mircea_popescu: so fucking far up their own ass is their head, that merely me ~saying~ something is stupid, which should be fucking enough among any group of adults with functional brains, is not,
asciilifeform: of the 'i want MY WAY, solely because MY shit dun stink, MOVE OVER old system'
mircea_popescu: and requires complex, timewasting, resource destroying, excursions in fuck you.
mircea_popescu: which also have to be repeated.
asciilifeform: the ant traps in my kitchen also have to be repeated every odd year.
mircea_popescu: he ~almost~ nearly makes the "it is wrong to encourqage code writing over code reading" point, and then it oddly eludes him
asciilifeform: (floor is not hermetically sealed, no.)
mircea_popescu: but one could pretend the entire car nonsense was his trying to say that and no more.
asciilifeform: he says it in 1,001 ways in 1,001 places.
asciilifeform: largely why i dug in.
mircea_popescu: guy's work would have greatly benefited of his having a log, where he could reference it properly to itself.
asciilifeform: had the classic 'earthworm and ants' feel to it
mircea_popescu: having a blog* i mean
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he had a blog.
asciilifeform: too little, however, and too late.
asciilifeform: and spent last 8-9 or so yrs of life, largely offline.
asciilifeform: because, i suspect, he realized that he was banging head on wall.
mircea_popescu: myeah. this blog thing seems to me very strictly a problem of "tools are 30 iq points".
mircea_popescu: you can explain to roman astronomer about proper numeration all you want.
asciilifeform: because he was not mircea_popescu and did not have any knife sharp enough to actually make a palpable mark on the wall.
mircea_popescu: but HAD he proper numeration, he'd be in such better a position.
asciilifeform: finally this sinks in, i see.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, i suspect, was originally allergic to the 'roman numerals' observation for approx same reason as in dope thread
asciilifeform: no, numerals do not make brilliant mathematician
asciilifeform: nor the dope
asciilifeform: nor the funny hat.
asciilifeform: but ~in the hands of one~ etc.
mircea_popescu: when exactly was i allergic to it ; and for that matter i've been preaching blogging to people for years.
mircea_popescu: actually, starting the week after proper log/search/irc took off.
asciilifeform: was speaking of the generalized 'tool is +30iq'
mircea_popescu: i suspect this may be a case of "you may not use that tool here" being taken for "i don't like that tool". it was a domain problem most likely, but do link ?
asciilifeform: and yes, walk across usa and meet 1,000,001 people who think GIGANTIC lathe, or tractor, or kalash with SHIT HANGING OFF SIDE, will make them THE GREAT MEISTER etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: any of, e.g., the notation threads. or the dope thread. or any ' mircea_popescu: this is worthless crapola used by posers to appear relevant . asciilifeform: no, i saw it used, and perhaps used personally, to palpable effect. mircea_popescu: bullshit, i can do same thing with shoestring and power of my mind. asciilifeform: ...'
mircea_popescu: domain problem.
asciilifeform: possibly.
mircea_popescu: the beauty of the fucking logs - what is actually said can, and IS actually extricated from the "reasonable interpretation" it forms at the time of the saying. this is both a) a necessary effect of the passage of time and b) actually exponential rather than log or even liear. Moreover c) it actually provides aggregating benefits to everyone's toolset.
mircea_popescu: do find the examples, worth our time to look at them.
asciilifeform: http://naggum.no << holy shit, still up.
asciilifeform: unchanged.
asciilifeform: somebody must be paying the bill...
mircea_popescu: ex gf woman committed to doing that iirc
asciilifeform: (could even be the man's acct, slowly draining?)
asciilifeform: nah, she prolly would've put some emo crapola in there)
mircea_popescu: "wtf is orkut" https://archive.is/lkQ9Z << "300 mn social media network ; closed"
mircea_popescu: apparently these aren't ACTUALLY worth money after all ?
asciilifeform: it was among the first arsebooks.
mircea_popescu: shoulda sold it to facebook for 10 bnz
asciilifeform: iirc it survived in brazil for some years.
asciilifeform: on own farts.
asciilifeform: lel, as if 'flyover' walmartlandia is full of productive self-sustaining folk.
mircea_popescu: hey, brain needs a foundational fiction.
asciilifeform: evidently.
asciilifeform: but usually ends up flying with own bootstraps.
asciilifeform: and i met folks cashing fat usg contract cheques who laughed at 'welfare niggerz' etc.
asciilifeform: somehow it is different when done in tailored, vs walmart suit ? i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: crabs in the pot.
mircea_popescu: "how to cook crab ?" "make sure you have a half dozen or more"
asciilifeform: 'how to guard an auschwitz. make sure you have half a dozen....' etc
asciilifeform: 'one prisoner might make a break for it, half a dozen will sit, smoke, justify...'
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 16:40 mircea_popescu: kinda why you need more womenz to process that payload.
asciilifeform: 'The state told her she had to contact the SSA to get a specific form that says her SSN was misused and that she in fact was the "owner" of her number. When she went to the SSA, she said they wouldn't give her the form. The reason? They stopped giving them out (apparently recently as this just happened a few months ago) because they were getting too many request for them. So their decision, rather than going after the people falsely
asciilifeform: using SSNs to get benefits, was to stop providing documentation so that the person who was actually associated to the number could prove it, because there were too many instances of this happening.' << this is actual and typical.
asciilifeform: 'So she returned to the state disability office and told them this. Their response was, "Oh, I guess that's new. Okay, no problem, we'll assign you a different ID number." My cousin's kid was like "WTF?" and asked them why they would reassign her a number rather than reassign, or better yet freeze, the SSN thief's account. Their response was that they don't get involved in those legal issues, their job is just to provide the benefit
asciilifeform: s. ' << gold.
asciilifeform: 'got burgled? here, have this refrigerator crate to live in'
asciilifeform: 'it is just as empty as your house now is.'
mircea_popescu: myeah. kinda why the name of the game has been "suck it dry and expatriate all you can" for about a decade now.
mircea_popescu: it's just about clear the ship's hollow and will sink.
asciilifeform: ship has been quite as it is since '70s.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
mircea_popescu: the difference even 2001 to 2016 is palpable.
asciilifeform: every particular stretch is quite palpable.
mircea_popescu: dubious there'll be a 2031 to palpate against.
asciilifeform: now this, yes.
asciilifeform: then again, north kr has chugged along .
asciilifeform: living on own farts.
asciilifeform: and remaining fat, what there is.
mircea_popescu: "alf's idea of a think he has no sensation access nor cares to reasses to has remained unchanged over the interval the foregoing held"
asciilifeform: re quoted bit, the 'they stopped giving out form' is as questionable as 'nsa bugged my house, but i have no photo'
asciilifeform: what happens if he finds the form , on the net, and files it ?
asciilifeform: no answer ? how about in court ? etc.
asciilifeform: what's the case # ?
mircea_popescu: tru. which is why i didn't quote that part.
asciilifeform: methinks this is simply the 'tech supports keeps you waiting for 5 minutes', feynman's postbox, bit.
asciilifeform: a great many 'atrocity stories' from u.s. folk fit this description, on close thought
mircea_popescu: also tru.
asciilifeform: 'so city hall told you to fuck off, what didja do next?'
asciilifeform: 'nuffin, watched tv, sad there sad'
asciilifeform: the story never seems to end with 'i filed suit # .... and then four dudes in black van came and told me to withdraw or there will be problems'
asciilifeform: two available resolutions to this, either four dudes also said 'shut yer trap or there will be problems', and ~everybody~ shut, or...
asciilifeform: the other one.
asciilifeform: now ~sometimes~ the story ends with 'judge found that 'quiet enjoyment' includes 1,001 crying babies at 3am' or the like.
asciilifeform: (as per mircea_popescu's article circa, iirc, 2010)
asciilifeform: but usually it ends with 'and then i drank myself to sleep in front of tv.'
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's experience as listener.
asciilifeform: $s rule of law
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519816 << not this, but simply observation that usa has been slowly sinking, since - at the very latest, even - fdr.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:03 mircea_popescu: "alf's idea of a think he has no sensation access nor cares to reasses to has remained unchanged over the interval the foregoing held"
asciilifeform: rather than from some novel bush-era malady.,
trinque: eh the money printing did the hockey-stick maneuver pretty recently
trinque: from its previous setting of "side of pyramid"
asciilifeform: the more interesting q is the rate of leakage into turkey-dollars.
asciilifeform: most of the printolade, at least in so far as is visible to public naked eye, went into real estate racket
asciilifeform: which in practical terms simply means that now plebe has to indenture himself for 50, not 20, years, when 'buying' his cardboard boxhouse
asciilifeform: at some point it'll be 100.
asciilifeform: what of it. just as meaningless, to office plankton, as the diff b/w being sentenced to 100 vs 200 years without parole.
a111: Logged on 2013-12-25 21:05 mircea_popescu: Itzhak is a respectable moneylender in the small neighbourhood of Fool's Crossing.
asciilifeform: the moar interesting parameter is , if you will, 'meta' inflation, it being the rate at which the soup quotient in the soup cans shrinks, the rate at which respectable folk eat soup from cans to begin with - climbs, the plastic in the machine gears increases to 100%, etc.
asciilifeform: the relationship between the 'goldman sachs printed another trillion' kind of inflation, and this weimar one, is - at least to my savage and primitive mind - a murky one
asciilifeform: rather like the relation between hbomb tests and cancer rate
trinque: quantify decadence
asciilifeform: i.e. i am satisfied that there ~is~ one, but have nfi re particulars (hormesis, say, is a thing.)
asciilifeform: i and anyone else can point to a few obvious 'financial memory leaks' - e.g., folks borrowing against 'their' house , buying btc, and rocketing off to mars.
asciilifeform: but this is not exhaustive catalogue.
asciilifeform: nor do i have any notion of what ultimately controls the rate of such leakage.
asciilifeform: (it was not wholly impossible to 'leak' pre-btc, either..)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-11#1518369 << see also re 'inflation hormesis' as analogous to same in radiation.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-11 16:16 mircea_popescu: as it dislodges the meat robots from their comforts and forces them into towns.
asciilifeform: but it is not clear, at least to me, that debased currency is a ~cause~ rather than ~symptom~ of cultural decay.
trinque: why can't both cause the other
asciilifeform: can, why not.
asciilifeform: but typically it is depicted as 'this-way'
asciilifeform: or at least, implied as reversible 'using sound money'
asciilifeform: i am quite interested in the mechanisms whereby 1) goldmansachs usd are prevented from transmuting into turkey usd 2) plebes wielding turkey usd are restrained from putting unendurable pressure on supplies of limited resources, of the sort which lead to shortages and visible collapse.
asciilifeform: i know a few things re (1) - e.g., cash confiscations.
asciilifeform: but very little re (2)
asciilifeform: nor do i expect to find out, unless mircea_popescu reveals tidbits.
trinque: it was supposed to be central bank interest rates that sucked money out of the system
trinque: but this is fiction when they set at near zero or below
asciilifeform: trinque: how did central bank suck actual physical benjies out of mattresses ?
asciilifeform: or do i misunderstand.
asciilifeform: trinque do you know, e.g., why devaluations of the ruble were a bi-decennial, regular thing in su ?
asciilifeform: it was how they emptied the mattresses.
asciilifeform: which might otherwise strain already painfully limited supply of, e.g., auto tyres.
asciilifeform: and 1,000,001 things.
asciilifeform: su had not invented credit card and electric money.
asciilifeform: you walked into a shop, and, if i had x - you bought x, with paper cash.
asciilifeform: so the cash had to be collected from people , in occasional mass batches, to relieve strain on scarce supply of x-en.
trinque: in this case the average consumer isn't saving shit. they're paying on house loans, student loans, so on.
asciilifeform: not much of a spoiler if i say that the devaluations did not work! tyres and other seemingly mundane 'shop' goods still had to be allocated in gnarly and entirely nonmarkety ways.
asciilifeform: trinque: there are many ways to keep folks from putting undue strain on shrinking industrial base. one is to simply prevent saving.
asciilifeform: as successfully done in usa.
asciilifeform: another is - also done here - to confiscate savings.
asciilifeform: another - limits on what can be purchased, where, in what qty.
asciilifeform: we have nearly all of these, here.
trinque: central bank interest rate is afaik the rate it loans to other banks, which then themselves may speak a certain multiple of money into existence by virtue of holding the central bank's voodoo
trinque: so really the interest rate diddles the margins of how fast the flood of money occurs
asciilifeform: trinque: i know this. but am interested presently in where it interfaces with physical reality.
trinque: not whether it's sucked back up
asciilifeform: the particular spot, understand, where delusion turns to scorched flesh.
trinque: certainly a mircea_popescutronic question
trinque: I wonder if it's truly that the USA was *that* wealthy that it had this far to fall, that there is not yet starvation.
trinque: what a pathetic thing if so
asciilifeform: i recently acquired ~60 years of 'scientific american'. worth every penny.
asciilifeform: exhibits, graphically, this fact.
asciilifeform: even the ads. in particular, the ads.
asciilifeform: there was a... nearly incomprehensibly titanic 'battery charge' of ingenuity, sanity, and plain simple 'ant' (vs 'grasshopper') accumulated delayed gratification, that is now being maggoted through.
deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2016/from-order-towards-chaos/ << Daniel P. Barron - From order towards chaos.
asciilifeform: i was recently reading about 'oilite', a type of self-lubricating bronze, that is still made in usa. the factory where it was originally produced, owned by chrysler corp., lived in the '30s. today it is a ruin, rats live in it. oilite is still made, in usa, but for how long - i have nfi, at some point it will become difficult to find people who will follow the ritual (yes, to savages, industry is ritual) and it will sail off to china
asciilifeform: like everything else.
trinque: begins to look like a great place to live, provided decent gas mask.
asciilifeform: provided yer born there
asciilifeform: and dun expect things such as cheese, or trees, or being considered for work outside yer clan wot
asciilifeform: see mega-thread with mircea_popescu and china.
trinque: aha
asciilifeform: understand, if elephant is being devoured by ants, it does not necessarily follow that anthill is a 'great place to live' for elephant - or lion, or the other animals watching.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu were awake, he might say sumthinglike 'nothing human is foreign to me', etc.
asciilifeform: but i will say that there ~is~, to me.
asciilifeform: this may be subjective thing wholly. maybe trinque can learn to like living in anthill, without cheese or chix with visible tits. i have nfi.
asciilifeform: for the record.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519904 << holy mother of fuck, danielpbarron
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:32 deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2016/from-order-towards-chaos/ << Daniel P. Barron - From order towards chaos.
asciilifeform: dragon?!
asciilifeform: eh i suppose it is no worse than the rest of it.
trinque: what does the lord's word say on bigfoot?
asciilifeform: well odin did slay the yottin
asciilifeform: or wait, that was different lord.
danielpbarron: I can see why the levianthan would be particularly hard to accept, seeing as how the thing is supposed to currently be alive in the ocean, whereas many of the other far-fetched sounding things in The Bible are supposed to have only existed long ago
asciilifeform: leviathan ?
danielpbarron: trinque, I don't think there is any mention of bigfoot in The Bible
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, yes
asciilifeform: ( since gabriel_laddel thread i can never again be certain, whether typo is typo or deep barb of some sort )
trinque: lol
danielpbarron: this time, just a typo
asciilifeform: 'Can you draw out Leviathan[a] with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower? Can you put a reed through his nose, Or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak softly to you? Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him as a servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you leash him for your maidens? Will your companions make a banquet of him? Will they
asciilifeform: apportion him among the merchants?'
asciilifeform: '... Who can remove his outer coat? Who can approach him with a double bridle? Who can open the doors of his face, With his terrible teeth all around? His rows of scales are his pride, Shut up tightly as with a seal; One is so near another That no air can come between them; They are joined one to another, They stick together and cannot be parted.' << dune sandworm!
danielpbarron: heh, nice
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581551 http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581552 http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581554 << go figure that the logs have covered most every situation imaginable, to which i'd like to ask mircea_popescu specifically about znort987 : how much trust is he (she?) worth ?
a111: Logged on 2014-03-26 00:22 mircea_popescu: TestingUnoDosTre suppose this guy comes to trade 5 with you.
a111: Logged on 2014-03-26 00:23 mircea_popescu: you don't know him, but know me. so you come to me
a111: Logged on 2014-03-26 00:23 mircea_popescu: "hey, what's this guy worth in trust ?"
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: did the 'bbet payouts halted after shitfinex incident' thing resolve, btw ?
asciilifeform: because if not, answer is a fat and obvious 0.
asciilifeform: at least, i'd expect.
pete_dushenski: no one else in my l1 has rated znort, so mp is my only tether here, and a seemingly tenuous one at that.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: haven't been keeping up with that tbh
asciilifeform: it is iirc the most recent mention of bbet here.
pete_dushenski: well other than emails from znort requesting a bailout loan from ol' petey, sure.
gribble: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: recently ?
asciilifeform: so it ~did~ shitfinex itself.
pete_dushenski: yesterday and into today. the conversation continues and will be published on contravex once it's all tied up.
danielpbarron: why no qntra ??
pete_dushenski: contravex seems like a better spot for the emails, qntra can pick it up after as nyooz
asciilifeform: so, supposing pete_dushenski did not dream this while on lsd, it ~was~ purchased by scammer.
asciilifeform: (speculating with escrowed coin , on whatever exchange, is scamming )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: bring it on
asciilifeform: and - about what could such a conversation conceivably 'go on' ?
asciilifeform: it is rather like talking to ninjashogun. i personally would like some of the time i wasted on it, back...
pete_dushenski: patience, grasshopper, patience.
pete_dushenski: while it might be obvious what goes on between nigerian scammers and their would-be prey, it never hurts to show the readers at home how their various attacks are thwarted.
danielpbarron: seems to me the news is now broke-- whatever the details. Not that the qntra competitors are gonna link to trilema logs as their source.. but still
pete_dushenski: anyways, i'm a bit hesitant to throw the 'scammer' label at znort, but there's definitely some fishy smells about.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: by what conceivable means would bbet operator need 'bailout loan' ASIDE from having speculated with escrowed coin ?
asciilifeform: (aside from, say, armed robbery - but was any such thing alleged ?)
danielpbarron: lol i can't even load the b-a logs. I guess i'm blacklisted
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: use, e.g., google's cache.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: by continuing the conversation, perhaps i'll find out just that. sick grandmother ? ransomware ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 'i spent escrowed coins to cure sick grandmother' == scamming.
asciilifeform: 'i put escrowed coin on a winblowz box' == scamming.
asciilifeform: 'i put escrowed coin up my arse and then went to visit white house, where anal computer was confiscated and emptied' == scamming.
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: qntra still has a place, even when news breaks in channel.
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, ya I archive.is'd it
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: lol.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: do you know how loss of state secrets was punished in su, and why..?
asciilifeform: same idea.
pete_dushenski: solitary ? gulag ?
asciilifeform: pistol.
asciilifeform: 'did the rape? do the ape.' otherwise exercise in excuse-crafting.
pete_dushenski: eh. i'm a curious feller. sue me.
asciilifeform: well when pete_dushenski is done being curious and puts in the bullet, i'll sit and listen.
shinohai pops popcorn
asciilifeform: iirc we already had nearly this thread. no constructive cut can ever be made between an accidental and deliberate betrayal of trust.
asciilifeform: IF it was a close friend, who stiffed you, you MAY choose to write off the debt, forgive him.
asciilifeform: CHOOSE to.
asciilifeform: stiffed YOU.
asciilifeform: incidentally, pete_dushenski , it may well be physically possible to determine if bbet deposits went to shitfinex.
asciilifeform: whether znort wants you to find out, or not.
pete_dushenski: i recall the thread. it was persuasive as to the difficulty of the cut. in the end, 'scammer' is probably an accurate tag for bitbet's new owner.
asciilifeform: touched shitfinex or ANY exchange while bets are hot ? scammer.
pete_dushenski: quite so.
asciilifeform: in fact, coin movement from bet addr during bet hot - scammer.
asciilifeform: quite arguably.
pete_dushenski: sort of like valet taking ferrari to pick up gf while hustler is in the 'sino
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski a guy by that name was active back in 2011-2012 ; he made some corrections to mpex faq verbiage ; we've not kept in touch hence nor have i heard anything of him for a few years.
mircea_popescu: that'd be it.
pete_dushenski: sort of what i gathered from the logs during bbet auction day. cheers.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519848 << mno, you're missing the chief significance : in practice it means "todos juntos defendiendo la soberania", ie, chinese have to pay more to buy it.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:27 asciilifeform: which in practical terms simply means that now plebe has to indenture himself for 50, not 20, years, when 'buying' his cardboard boxhouse
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: wd on the latest blog post. made me realise i missed the last couple too!
mircea_popescu: after the very sad experinece of japanese re speculation in new york, this is a reasonable manoeuver, macro speakling.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: their pile of zeros elongates at least as quickly as the price tag's
mircea_popescu: yeah well, nobody said you can build escherian trestlework.
asciilifeform: (because they already own usa)
asciilifeform: aha, quite the klein bottle here.
asciilifeform: with perpetuum mobile, even.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, if you start on one end you're stuck starting on the other too.
mircea_popescu: kinda the nature of ideal social systems : they force this sort of mistake.
asciilifeform: well sorta like how a fire forces being black, dead, sooty, and smelling of cooked meat.
pete_dushenski: vancouver is a prime example of this macro manoeuvre. recently announced 15% tax on foreign (read: chinese) buyers to boot.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519864 << i don't think it was ever contemplated in these here logs as anything but symptom.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:46 asciilifeform: but it is not clear, at least to me, that debased currency is a ~cause~ rather than ~symptom~ of cultural decay.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it will be fascinating to watch the gymnastics of chinese shills answerable to 'no one' on official paper, but to handlers in actual flesh, doing their 'independent' thing.
mircea_popescu: a readily visible, central reason why goldbugs per se are so intellectually laughable.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: sorta like 'rich' people in, e.g., ukraine.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519869 << the latter part you can see in my doomed efforts to get to a fucking club in buenos aires. exact same fucking mechanisms.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:58 asciilifeform: i am quite interested in the mechanisms whereby 1) goldmansachs usd are prevented from transmuting into turkey usd 2) plebes wielding turkey usd are restrained from putting unendurable pressure on supplies of limited resources, of the sort which lead to shortages and visible collapse.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: there's no one better than chinese gymnasts atm. just watch the olympics.
mircea_popescu: "we have plenty of" "where ?" "oh, nowhere" "right."
pete_dushenski: japanese men were close last time, but iirc chinese still took gold.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what scarce resource would it exhaust in ar to have working clubs ? molybdenum ?
asciilifeform: scarce ?
mircea_popescu: the moment they have sexual competition the whole thing comes apart.
asciilifeform: ah in that sense.
mircea_popescu: that's the thing - female patience with ar loser IS fucking scarce
mircea_popescu: because they need so much and it's not naturally occuring - hasta be produced. hence all the luchamos gargle.
mircea_popescu: thatg's what that's all about.
asciilifeform: we have same thing here in north argentina, it is produced via other means ('401k' gargle, etc) but otherwise similar.
asciilifeform: 'make luser attractive deal to stupid female'
mircea_popescu: cunt is a major transaction medium, in point of fact ; seeing how sexual competition is the driver of economic move.
mircea_popescu: which is precisely why, widely speaking, economic progress happened in the west, with the sandyvagina'd women that didn't marry and didn't have kids, rather than i nthe east, or in china, with the loving and tolerant she-rabbits.
mircea_popescu: the nonsensical myth of the "pure" knight is specific of what, england, northern france/belgium/luxemburg, and northern italy.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to midi, sicily, holy roman empire etc.
mircea_popescu: bitchez dun put out, beta male goes to get pomodori, spices and whatnot, maybe it gets her hot ; or otherwise arab boi goes to fucking sweden, where it's cold and it sucks, to rape the swede horsewomen.
asciilifeform: used to be the swede - went.
mircea_popescu: ukr chicks put out, ukr is the lol of all orcs, even the muscovi losers.
mircea_popescu: hence the whole protestantism thing. it delivered - they wiped the catholic tolerants.
mircea_popescu: history of england is quite interesting under this aspect.
mircea_popescu: majority catholic - fucking burgundy, which is now somehow inexplicably a country - owns it.
asciilifeform: eh, there was spain.
mircea_popescu: and then they got owned by the dutch. the DUTCH of all people!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, and spain IS because at some point the extremadura hos were putting out ~for the arabs~
mircea_popescu: which sunk the arabs.
asciilifeform: at any rate 'tolerasts' ~ALWAYS~ get their arse handed to them.
asciilifeform: no exception.
asciilifeform: from mazdak on.
asciilifeform: (do engl.-speaking folks even KNOW about tolerasty? well, they do now!)
asciilifeform: Just Say No to tolerasty, kiddlez.
asciilifeform: Be Smart, Dun Start
asciilifeform: or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: yeah srsly, i should run an ad campaign here. "Be smart, don't fuck Argentines."
asciilifeform: well as per start of this subthread, nobody needs the ad, they just need the psychotronic weapon that makes them spread for idiots, removed.
mircea_popescu: you should see this fucking place - 19yos going around WITH THEIR MOTHERS
asciilifeform: when idiocy ray is turned off, people tend to go back to some approximation of sanity.
mircea_popescu: so fucking degrading, it's unconscionable.
mircea_popescu: i don't think i've ever seen this in romania. or for that matter the states.
asciilifeform: how about egypt ?
mircea_popescu: girl that age would rather be caught sucking off pigs than sharing an intimate moment with her mother.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform oh, egypt all teh time.
mircea_popescu: by and large if you wanted to start a cunt you pretty much had to have her mother spread her out for you.
mircea_popescu: as per the quote, "sfondami tutta! prendi mia figlia! te la faccio sverginare!"
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: That thing your submission discusses was already withdrawn. Otherwise it would have been in the News Roundup Xtend
BingoBoingo: Sorry, News Roundup Xtend (TM)(R)
shinohai: I haven't found *a single thing* to qntra this week
mircea_popescu: slow week huh.
shinohai: Yeah, kinda weird. I started two submissions, then realized how dumb they sounded and canned 'em.
mircea_popescu: kinda how this goes yeah
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, ah, so i shouldn't even publish it myself?
shinohai: Even scammers are starting to recycle scams, like PayCon.
shinohai: No news :/
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Well with some rewording that it failed you can self republish
asciilifeform: lel bbet implosion is quite a nyooz
mircea_popescu: wait what happened ?
BingoBoingo: I was tempted to write about the falling value of tits.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519892 << nah, the central bank interest rate is the loss of the circuit. like, what s.mg takes out of eulora would be it.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:06 trinque: so really the interest rate diddles the margins of how fast the flood of money occurs
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo seems kinda marginal tbh.
mircea_popescu: maybe next pass you know, come 2019 or w/e, when i gotta move it from 0.02 to 0.001 or w/e
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah, but not mockable News Roundup (TM)(R) marginal either. Next move prolly has a place.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519897 << yes, the us was inconceivably wealthy. i nthat 1985-1990 half decade / 5yrplan it could have literally convinced the globe to do anything. this is ultimate wealth. sadly they decided to use that capital to convince the globe "saddam had nuclear weapons" and "green energy/blabla ecolotardisms and assorted danquayleisms" instead.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:11 trinque: I wonder if it's truly that the USA was *that* wealthy that it had this far to fall, that there is not yet starvation.
mircea_popescu: possibly the largest case of wastage in the history of humanity.
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform: there's no one better than chinese gymnasts atm. just watch the olympics.<< I thought black american hobbits were winning?
pete_dushenski: that was in the pool
pete_dushenski: lbgtbbq ethiopans ftw
pete_dushenski saw some objectionable picture of such in local paper
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519893 << other than cunt already mentioned, "criminal behaviour", ie, male systematic intolerance. hence all the "terrorists" etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:06 asciilifeform: trinque: i know this. but am interested presently in where it interfaces with physical reality.
mircea_popescu: kinda why the clinton ticket is such nonsense to anyone not-a-pleb. the one thing obvious is things can't continue - how to let steam out, where etc are debatable, but her utterly mccain-ish notion of "all is well" smacks of such senile delusion as can scarcely be put into words.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Nah, I just caught that downthread you were talking about dudes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519902 < aha. quite valid measuring stick.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:29 asciilifeform: even the ads. in particular, the ads.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: stop oppressing ethiobians
mircea_popescu: the switch from representational to aspirational advertising is quite the direct reflection of the turning point.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Maybe if they didn't want oppressed they would have kept the Ras Tafari Haille Sellaise alive?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 22:36 mircea_popescu: wait what happened ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: tlp obviously went after this aspirational angle, even if he tripped over the patek philippe price points, as per http://www.contravex.com/2015/11/10/the-danger-of-unchecked-assumptions-or-the-surprising-depths-of-inequality/
mircea_popescu: oh danielpbarron doth not approve of thiel heresies ?
mircea_popescu: ah babel, not bad example either.
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1518968 << ftr, wide road was paved by jlo and non-us-born shakira
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 13:38 mircea_popescu: phf and this because kim totally fucking won the assculture war.
mircea_popescu: blondies ? dun think so.
mircea_popescu: road was paved by countless, nameless, black chicks shaking booty.
mircea_popescu: so that cvasi-jew may one day be accepted queen in their stead
mircea_popescu: very much like the obama trick, actually.
mircea_popescu: (to go quite into the depths of this : /me has always suspected all the "upsetting" stories about how hairy kim is were i nfact strategic plants from her media strategist. to make her acceptable, for being ~jewish)
pete_dushenski: jlo's sorta sandy-haired, shakira hit the bleach bottle
mircea_popescu: image is everything ; substance dun count in this discussion.
mircea_popescu: it's about women, after all.
pete_dushenski: kim was harped on for being hairy ? this is nooz to me. i thought she just got sassed for being, as chappelle would say, a nigger-lover.
mircea_popescu: re danielpbarron 's thing : yes, the texts do not support the reading of leviathan as demon. it is beast ; a sort of cow, or hippo or what have you.
mircea_popescu: $s daughters
a111: 105 results for "daughters", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=daughters
mircea_popescu: check it out, us can now confiscate uk citizens np. nice.
asciilifeform: could, eons ago.
asciilifeform: e.g., laury love
mircea_popescu: recall the days the british navy pressed rando usians into 10 year ship washing terms ?
asciilifeform: usa even declared war over it.
asciilifeform: i saw, in delaware recently, a cannonball stuck in wall, since 1814, from it.
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem like the uk is declaring anything but "i'll hold her for you"
asciilifeform: well yes, 'airstrip one' uk.
mircea_popescu: lol nice story though, guy worth 1/4bn is going to bother with 15k piddly us dollahs. this is almost as good as "we found a street hooker who's willing to swear she was a hotel maid and the european central bank prresident did vague things to her. honest!"
mircea_popescu: state butthurt over brexit much ?
asciilifeform: dun seem like he was dragged, hog-tied, to usa tho.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: ever see j. streicher's cartoons?
pete_dushenski: dun think they ever ended up in local journal, so prolly not
asciilifeform: der sturmer.
pete_dushenski read comics section religiously as a child
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the strauss-kahn idiot also went willingly.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: german dude. hanged at nuremberg.
mircea_popescu: dudes gotta learn, you don't visit barbarfic lands without proper bonds.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: aha. just recalled that i read a bio or two of streicher after your mention of him in the logs recently.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have nfi why strausskahn went
asciilifeform: perhaps they had his mother as hostage or wat.
mircea_popescu: because they refuse to conceptualize that the us is a rogue state, why.
asciilifeform: sisters, daughters, pets,
mircea_popescu: they don't go around visiting north korea
mircea_popescu: though honestly much better reasons there.
asciilifeform: the occasional imbecile does
mircea_popescu: at least you probably can get a proper foot massage.
asciilifeform: and gets stuck
asciilifeform: typically christbesotted types
asciilifeform: go a preachin'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519966 << morel ike a teaser. i'm teased alright.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 21:41 danielpbarron: seems to me the news is now broke-- whatever the details. Not that the qntra competitors are gonna link to trilema logs as their source.. but still
asciilifeform: then to gulag.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i meant people, not rando "i crawled out of a woman at some point"
asciilifeform: strausskahn was a people?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu knows, as fact?
mircea_popescu: well, stuborn old fool, but sure, why the hell not.
asciilifeform: well i have nfi, perhaps missionary dude also was ?
mircea_popescu: is naggum people ? he's not in the wot. what standard shall we apply.
asciilifeform: i haven't the intel. hence q.
mircea_popescu: i dunno the missionary, and don't care to remedy this.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo or anyone with time/energy: see if any live bbet bets have empty in addrs.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519996 << this is altogether unclear. this "the people have the right to trace the coins" is a) still nonsense, bitcoin is not traceable ; b) still nonsense, forget the "dao" bullshit ; c) still nonsense, you trust the operator or you don't trust the operator.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 21:51 asciilifeform: touched shitfinex or ANY exchange while bets are hot ? scammer.
mircea_popescu: while i ran bitbet there was no specific guarantee made that "the coins" would be found in any place or not found in any place. this specifically, explicitly and intentionally ; against at least three different attempts to "community organize" and assorted nonsense.
covertress waves hello to mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: how goes ?
covertress: well, and with you?
covertress: I've been in contact w le ver.
mircea_popescu: lol "lever". nb.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whether 'can trace' or cannot, gambling with escrows == scamming
asciilifeform: or, wat, only if you lose???
mircea_popescu: covertress i've been in contact with a lively, nicely titted waitress. i think this makes it 1-0 for me.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no such thing as "escrows".
covertress: ahh, yes, I've seen your numbered exploits posted here. lulz
mircea_popescu: nobody asked you anything of how bitbet's capital is to be used by bitbet.
asciilifeform: coin parked at bbet and promised to come out minus fee.
asciilifeform: what do you call it, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is fungible. you hold a claim to a sum, not to any sort of otherwise specifiable coins.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: you're assuming taint
mircea_popescu: there is no "these" coins in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: sum, sure.
pete_dushenski: perhaps time for another audit ?
mircea_popescu: up to operator.
pete_dushenski: iirc mats did the last one of bbet
asciilifeform: so jon corzine was an honest man per mircea_popescu's lights?
covertress: mircea_popescu, I've meant to speak w you in private but, thought it rude to PM you.
mircea_popescu: understand - just because i'm the king and queen and can afford to leave whatever untold bitcoin fortunes lay fallow in whatever addresses for yeasrs at a time - does not give you the right to expect or demand such.
mircea_popescu: this is just another of those "sunk costs of mp's that we don't recognize nor compensate him for - just expect bitbet to magically work for free"
mircea_popescu: i don't expect ~anyone else would afford to do this. period.
asciilifeform: i dun expect it to work. i expected it to walk with the coinz.
asciilifeform: hence - did not use after heathens got to it.
mircea_popescu: covertress as we don't know each other, we have nothing to discuss "in private". public will work jus' fine.
covertress: yes, of course.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well there's always that.
asciilifeform: i'ma, lets say, low expectations fella.
covertress: I would like to propose a visit then, during my return leg from Shanghai.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is another problem of the prev discussed "bitbet" theme - without a proper cash market and cash insurance, it's pretty fucking hard to get it going.
covertress: 26-sept
mircea_popescu: covertress aite, i'll buy you a steak. you ever had a proper steak ?
covertress: kobe?
asciilifeform: but i do expect that if a phriend of mircea_popescu borrows his moneyz, and goes to gamble with it, and loses all, he will be made to pay with balls
mircea_popescu: well no, we'd be in argentina not in japan.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whether he will pay with balls, wife, or a cute poem, is mp\s problem ; but you're to expect you will be paid.
covertress: wagyu
mircea_popescu: are you a kobe fan covertress ?
mircea_popescu: a then you can tell me what you think of the local cut.
covertress: would love to
mircea_popescu: alright then.
covertress: will you be avail to meet w me?
mircea_popescu: i just said that didn't i ?
covertress: then I believe we now have something to discuss in private
mircea_popescu: lmao such a slippery one she is.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu gonna love the veery speshul seeeekrit rogervergerian offer!!
mircea_popescu: get in touch when you're here, i'll send someone to pick you up or such covertress .
covertress: very well
covertress waves goodbye to mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: this makes the... shit i lost count-th lady flying into weird uncharted lands to meet with me.
mircea_popescu: i think i am altogether a bad influence.
BingoBoingo: Did Shanti Dynamite ever make it?
mircea_popescu: are you trying to destroy shanti fungibility ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520211 << did mircea_popescu ever say why he did not charge the full cost of bitbetronics? it was loss leader? or wat.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:19 mircea_popescu: this is just another of those "sunk costs of mp's that we don't recognize nor compensate him for - just expect bitbet to magically work for free"
asciilifeform: or was it the 'pay for sunlight' thing.
asciilifeform: where nobody knows how to bill 'died for the glory of the motherland'.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What every Indiancandi has the same name or something?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to quote a wise man, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-14#1432299
a111: Logged on 2016-03-14 16:33 phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and
mircea_popescu: it wasn't a significant sum - think, i threw away 1k btc to humiliate buffett, i threw away 5 fucking btc for stuff like the contest that produced "shall be delivered" ; etc. moreover, to correctly account for it would have likely cost more.
asciilifeform: well bbet is not run by lord, or even - to my satisfaction - actual wot persona.
mircea_popescu: it's not a complaint ; it's a statement of fact, made at a time it's required to be made to protect the business environment from public insanity.
mircea_popescu: anyway, don't misunderstand the "not to make money" bit, it's in my case a coincidence not a virtue. go, make money, absolutely no shame in it. a lot of shame in luchamos juntos blablala, so there's that.
asciilifeform: dunno, i see 0 difference b/w a bbet that shitfinexes customer coin and that derp who put his customers' into canadian lottery.
mircea_popescu: yes, this may be. the problem is that THE SOLUTION you originally envisaged / the STATEMENT of the problem you originally used is braindead. this is, ironically, very much approached to his worship our bishop's objections - in that merely thinking you "should be able" to technologize your way into heaven is scarce guarantee you will in fact manage such.
asciilifeform: no word re technologizability.
mircea_popescu: yes, little difference between idiot putting bitcoin into bitfinex and idiot putting bitcoin into canadian lottery. but this is not the same as saying "we shall now has smart contracts bitbet"
asciilifeform: but if i pick up a stray burst of radio static from bbet that suggests he lotteries, this will be part of my risk assessment.
asciilifeform: and i will share. publicly.
asciilifeform: as pete did.
mircea_popescu: well no possible argument there ; sure.
asciilifeform: and no 'smart contract' or whatever, just radio static. it is ~possible~ that znort moved the coin because, solely because, he is allergic to odd-numbered addrs. or sumthing.
asciilifeform: nevertheless i am free to consider a hypothesis that could be ruled out if he had not moved it.
mircea_popescu: in general, unless someone is ~central bank, it'll be difficult for them to ignore the time-value of capital.
mircea_popescu: some fish might be too big to care ; but in general fish that aren't too big to care are required, economically, to maximize the usage of resources.
asciilifeform: what time value. after private mpoe, the ~only + or even breakeven ev btc use is 'hodl'.
asciilifeform: presently.
mircea_popescu: sure. but this is a conclusion that requires analysis above the pay grade to make.
mircea_popescu: very pernicious vicious circle / catch 22 sort of situation.
asciilifeform: well i dun wear a pope hat.
mircea_popescu: let me put it this way : the fact that we don't have a proper money market is much more the problem of "the community" than the problem of the misfortunate whoever that ran bitbet. whether he was a scammer or not, as a factual matter, as an idealised, theoretical construct the observation stands.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: But you wear a Cardinal's College!
mircea_popescu: yes, it's not even altogether clear there CAN be such a thing as a bitcoin-equivalent of the fiat money market. yes, problems of all sorts, yes yes yes. and yet - what's he to do ?
asciilifeform: and yes, the temptation to 'invest' other people's coin , without their knowledge, has been overwhelming, for ~every megascammer to date.
asciilifeform: the 'winners' - we generally never hear about.
mircea_popescu: not even a temptation. the ECONOMIC DRIVE! if he doesn't - another will. and neither he nor the other are mp, to obliterate any conceivable competition by simple fucking logos like a thing out of the sacred texts. so what's he to do ?
mircea_popescu: you think the average us banker DIDNT know, throughout the 2000s , that they're going straight into real estate crisis ?
asciilifeform: lol aha, 'if i dun steal that donkey, another will'
mircea_popescu: like shit.
mircea_popescu: of course they did.
asciilifeform: you still gotta hang thieves.
mircea_popescu: sure. hang away.
mircea_popescu: i don't think i ever spoke against a hanging, maybe if nice tits invovled or something, but rare enough.
asciilifeform: pete is, as i understand, boiling the rope, as we speak.
mircea_popescu: ahh, the scent of boiling rope.
mircea_popescu: what things modern man knows not he doesn't know.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520274 << well, we have a 'these ships sail for west indies next morning and most will come back never, or in a decade, and maybe full of gold and slaves, or maybe plague' market.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:45 mircea_popescu: let me put it this way : the fact that we don't have a proper money market is much more the problem of "the community" than the problem of the misfortunate whoever that ran bitbet. whether he was a scammer or not, as a factual matter, as an idealised, theoretical construct the observation stands.
mircea_popescu: the italians all had proper risk and insurance markets.
mircea_popescu: shakespeare knows of this.
asciilifeform: did they assess risk of discovering syphilis??
asciilifeform: and if so, at what.
mircea_popescu: at, allow me to quite,
asciilifeform: and who paid - whom
mircea_popescu: SHYLOCK: Three thousand ducats; 'tis a good round sum. Three months from twelve; then, let me see; the rate...
mircea_popescu: there's more substance to lending than the naive christian "asking a living out of bare metal".
asciilifeform: i dun see how they covered the colourful swan of , e.g, syphilis.
mircea_popescu: actually there's more substance to lending than ~anyone ever alive ever realised.
asciilifeform: from this example.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you don't see.
asciilifeform: 'cause it isn' there?
mircea_popescu: mno. "i don't see how they did" and "i see how they didn't" are quite widely spaced apart.
asciilifeform: if i catch syphilis now, can i charge the penicillin bill to some dead genoan?
asciilifeform: or wat.
mircea_popescu: if you don't catch fdmjkrlehkjer now, shall a dead genoan send you the bill ?
asciilifeform: yes. i think i might still be paying that one.
mircea_popescu: evidently :)
asciilifeform: for all the substance in the 'social contract' lunacy, it may as well be bill from dead cromagnons etc.
mircea_popescu: the rousseau nonsense is unrelated to our discussion so far.
asciilifeform: going up the stack, i dun see successful gambler as == to 'was covered'
asciilifeform: elsewise shitfinex's 'insurance' will have been 'legit' right up to its total disappearance from the record.
asciilifeform: and jon corzine was a crook.
mircea_popescu: yeah, not at all contemplated here, such nonsense.
asciilifeform: and obamite.
asciilifeform: and would have still been a crook if he had won his bets and lost 0.
asciilifeform: just an ~undiscovered~ bezzlemeister.
mircea_popescu: at some point you'll have to understand bitcoin scarcity.
mircea_popescu: unlike fiat, there specifically ISNT as much of this as anyone could ever need.
asciilifeform: if mr thief picks mircea_popescu 's pocket, goes to the races, wins, and put the money back, he is still a pickpocket
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu in the right to collect his balls
asciilifeform: if catches him.
asciilifeform: and cash being fungible, mircea_popescu won't blink when he notices that his pocket had a hundie five minutes ago but now has 5 20s, right ?
asciilifeform: or will he.
asciilifeform: what am i missing ?
asciilifeform: re bbet example and the 5 20s.
asciilifeform: the coin movement is a bit of information.
asciilifeform: to say 'aint no such thing as taint' is great that bit is there, like the light from a distant star, it carries info.
asciilifeform: like the hundie that turned, 'spontaneously', to 5 20s.
asciilifeform: *but that bit is there
mircea_popescu: that bit is there to the owner of the pocket. in thsi case, bitbet. not you.
asciilifeform: if i can see it, i can see it.
asciilifeform: i am under no obligation to close my eyes.
mircea_popescu: you may think you see whatever ; for all you know some guy "sees" the true meaning of pgp signatures.
asciilifeform: fact is, it moved. MAYBE to other pocket of same guy, maybe not. but MOVED.
mircea_popescu: they spell out 666 JOO
asciilifeform: vs if it had not moved, i can see that it had not.
asciilifeform: which carries a bit of actionable info re risk assessment.
asciilifeform: and yes, there IS chance that key was lost
asciilifeform: or owner - dead
asciilifeform: but compare this with EV of 'bitcoin invest' on shitfinexes.
mircea_popescu: apparently voodoo is just hard to let go of.
asciilifeform: it aint voodoo if it works.
asciilifeform: wanna demonstrate why i merely hallucinate that it works?
asciilifeform: and the starlight carries 0 info
asciilifeform: i can already guess where this will go.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-13 00:10 asciilifeform: it aint voodoo if it works.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-13 00:03 asciilifeform: if mr thief picks mircea_popescu 's pocket, goes to the races, wins, and put the money back, he is still a pickpocket
mircea_popescu: at least we get to admire your intellectual flexibility!
asciilifeform: burden of proof will be on asciilifeform , not on wotless wonder znort
mircea_popescu: burden of proof applies to meaningful statements. there's no burden of proof here, as this inference isn't even wrong.
asciilifeform: P(coins lost | coins moved) > P(coins lost | coins stayed put).
asciilifeform: there, testable.
asciilifeform: or, at least, observable.
asciilifeform: this is a usable hypothesis, and the smart money will use it, just as it uses 'if train engineer drinks, he is more likely to cause bloodbath than if does not drink'.
mircea_popescu: it's not even a hypothesis.
asciilifeform: you can take' it to the bank '.
mircea_popescu: it's a "if god exists he has 10 minutes to strike me down" nonsense.
mircea_popescu: o look, mussolini's a theologian now.
asciilifeform: i get it, mircea_popescu has this 'if we pretend coin movement carries 0 bits of info to the enemy, mebbe it will become true' thing going.
asciilifeform: i dun see how it worx.
mircea_popescu: no. "coin movement" carries no information ; anyone may pretend otherwise at their leisure.
asciilifeform: my arse movements prolly carry info
mircea_popescu: it's a ridiculous stance, but whatever, people did PROVE that "she's a witch, but we did do the nose" etcetera.
mircea_popescu: hey, it's integral part of modern man's damnation that he flatters himself so.
asciilifeform: btw if mircea_popescu wants to do a shannon-style proof a la otp bits, i'm all ears.
asciilifeform: (recall thread?)
mircea_popescu: there is no such proof to be had ; you are simply pretending to glue together things that don't exist in the same domain.
asciilifeform: proof can always be had.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing here ; your presupositions can't be admitted. there's no way to do science o nthis.
mircea_popescu: mno. proof can be had on meaningful representations. not on random strings.
asciilifeform: tell me how 'coin moved' is not equivalent to 'coin may have moved to addr that mover dun have the key to and aint ever giving it back'.
mircea_popescu: "is this ball bluer than the number 5 ???"
mircea_popescu: "what ?"
mircea_popescu: "proof can always be had!!11"
asciilifeform: MAY have.
mircea_popescu: may doesn't rescue you from the fact that you're purporting to compare the results of two functions that may never return at the same time.
asciilifeform: sorta like 'wife MAY have fucked stranger last night, when she was out, but not THIS night, she was tied up in basement'
mircea_popescu: except you don't have a wife.
asciilifeform: i tell ya, i dun see it.
asciilifeform bbl, will go think.
asciilifeform: i tell ya, whole classes of coin loss universe that are possible given 'coin moved' - can be immediately ruled out if coin has not moved.
asciilifeform: for instance, 'sold for usd.'
mircea_popescu: it's all getting oneself drunk on spring water.
asciilifeform: next mircea_popescu will tell me that P(aids|shoots heroin) is not > P(aids|clean), etc.
mircea_popescu: entirely unrelated items.
asciilifeform: and that the actuarial alarm bell is my 'drunk on springwater.'
mircea_popescu: if there existed good physical models for bitcoin we wouldn't have either the problems or the interest.
asciilifeform: fact is , what has not been spent, could not have been mis-spent.
asciilifeform: lost key ? yes. meteor fell ? yes. ww3? yes. spent ? no.
mircea_popescu: unless you didn't hear the block.
asciilifeform: which sooooo happens every fucking day, aha.
asciilifeform: 'it's in the next block!'
asciilifeform: the check is in the mailz!
mircea_popescu: if you think you "hear all transactions" you'll have a lot of weird to explain.
asciilifeform: if a year later nobody heard a tx, and nobody showed it to me, it dun exist. proof or gtfo.
mircea_popescu: oh, and this year is what, in the protocol ?
asciilifeform: taken arbitrary length here.
mircea_popescu: your discussion of p's from afore somehow morphed into "proof or gtfo" ? what nonsense is this.
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: go, take whatever voodoo water you will ; and don't ask me to sign off on it.
asciilifeform: but burden of proof is on fella who says 'i've been trying to get this tx mined since obama presidency and nobody includes it in block because they are joooz' is on the claimant.
asciilifeform: who - as incidentally mircea_popescu did - shows the tx.
asciilifeform: if he wants to be believed.
mircea_popescu: the only burden of proof is on ridiculous short man with napoleon delusions giving god ultimatums and then pretending the "burden of proof", as if such a thing could even exist in the nonsensical context, is on this or that.
asciilifeform: (if he dun care whether anyone believes, naturally he dun have to show nuffin)
mircea_popescu: lettuce talk of something else for i tire of the nonsense.
asciilifeform: ahahaha argumento ad dirigible.
asciilifeform: if there's nothing else, i've nothing.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing to be had, no.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/wCuPt << not quite related lelz
asciilifeform: 'The fate of Liu Dawei that would lead him to a life sentence conviction began on July, 2014. Then 18-year-old, gun enthusiast Liu placed an online order to purchase 24 replica firearms from a Taiwanese website ...'
asciilifeform: ^ reminiscent of usg trials for faux dope.
asciilifeform: 'The judge said, based on the law, smuggling over 20 firearms should be given death sentence. However, the judge added that considering Liu’s young age at the time when the crime was committed, the court thus handed down a life sentence instead.'
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