Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-03-20 | 2016-03-22 → ↓
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8701 @ 0.00041886 = 3.6445 BTC [-]
assbot: Polymagnets - Correlated Magnetics ... ( http://bit.ly/22xRQyf )
hanbot: mod6 index idea could work, obvs hinges on whether i manage to organize something more precise/inclusive than a keyword grep'd put out. i'll look at it tomorrow/tues and report back.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27950 @ 0.00041707 = 11.6571 BTC [-]
deedbot-: [Qntra] Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing - http://qntra.net/2016/03/roger-verified-outlet-gets-into-ether-huffing/
mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?
mircea_popescu: dunno that it'd fix anything per se, but perhaps give us the tools to better approach the problem ? dunno.
mircea_popescu: technically this exists already, actually, we could do tag-gossipd-cipher and then http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=%22tag-gossipd-cipher%22
assbot: 0 results for '"tag-gossipd-cipher"' - #bitcoin-assets search
assbot: Woe: Getting Business Internet A Challenge In Heart Of Silicon Valley | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/22rwiGN )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I cannot help the lulz that commenters bring, but I can appreciate them
BingoBoingo: Also in the latest qntra the Union flag as ether rag is apparently a srs thing, except they call it the "American" flag
BingoBoingo: fucking yankees
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 403600 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1615 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1140007245.47
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 407.04, vol: 2161.73180920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.998, vol: 3253.80324 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 407.98, vol: 5531.21963537 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 412.206, vol: 22003.15730000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 407.9, vol: 866.4854354 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.166468, vol: 10.65217551 | Volume-weighted last average: 410.956904542
deedbot-: [Trilema] Slums of Beverly Hills - http://trilema.com/2016/slums-of-beverly-hills/
BingoBoingo: gribble seems a bit under the weather today
BingoBoingo: ;;goxlag
gribble: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: Current Blocks: 403624 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1591 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
gribble: 1134139562.46
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 408.49, vol: 2712.98115715 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 411.373, vol: 4067.4134 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 408.44, vol: 5606.41583417 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 413.89005, vol: 21416.36470000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 408.807, vol: 949.43468092 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.885946, vol: 7.94305105 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 412.154645761
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 250000 @ 0.000085 = 21.25 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 147392 @ 0.000085 = 12.5283 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: !t m s.nsa
assbot: [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 7D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 30D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000086 (457671 shares, 38.90 BTC)
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:04:35; punkman: http://www.polymagnet.com/polymagnets/
assbot: Logged on 04-12-2015 04:06:08; asciilifeform: aaand this oddity, http://www.polymagnet.com
BingoBoingo just figured the polymagnet thing was jsut the new "broken glass"
BingoBoingo: But shittier
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << fixing the search so it actually behaves sanely (EQUIVALENT TO GREP) would be almost as useful
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: go buy and test, they are sold
asciilifeform: a hundy or so gets you a dozen kinds iirc
assbot: [MPEX] [FN] [F.MPIF] 50000 @ 0.000209 = 10.45 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437065 << usaschwitz contains an africa : vast expanse of martian wasteland ~nobody gives half a shit about. it also contains a westerneurope: buncha decayed overcivilized folk with excess money that 'has to be harvested back from them or hyperinflation comes'. each of these prison zones gets abysmal net pipe for own reason.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:47:15; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor.
asciilifeform: i live in the 'harvester'; BingoBoingo, i think - mars.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 06:49:38; BingoBoingo: http://www.plateoftheday.com/food_blog/brownie.gif
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They are having a hard time hiding the recycling nowadays
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00041764 = 1.7541 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: shouldn't debug.log be rotated?
thestringpuller: my debug.log file is now 200 megs
thestringpuller: manual process daily to rotate?!?
jurov: what manual? learn to set up logrotate, it's not so hard
shinohai: mv debug.log logs/$(date -d "today" +"%Y%m%d%H%M").log
thestringpuller: aha logrotate
assbot: UbuntuBSD Brings Ubuntu Atop The FreeBSD Kernel - Phoronix ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj8A88 )
jurov: shinohai: how did random pieces of software and wetware end up affecting your digestion?
shinohai: Marrying Ubuntu to anything makes me slightly queasy.
jurov: sounds like ubuntu was your precious daughter
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/25N0KYV.txt )
nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387250.msg14270969#msg14270969 << couple of process pictures from latest poster run
assbot: [35/100] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [UPDATED DESIGN FOR 2016] ... ( http://bit.ly/1ScXeSA )
mircea_popescu: actually ubuntu sounds like a pretty decent name for the chicks BingoBoingo links.
mircea_popescu: "way down deep in the middle of the jungle a hippo humped a manatee and spawned a scary daughter - i know, we'll call her ubuntu!"
nubbins`: ;;seen funkenstein
gribble: funkenstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 1 week, 0 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <funkenstein> !register 6B0D10D1878DE25B4DA2695AB2B6360488298AB6
nubbins`: ;;later tell funkenstein_ references to bezzlars removed! ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: !up jjb1212
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 42429 @ 0.000085 = 3.6065 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: 'The inaugural release of UbuntuBSD is now available, which the developers have codenamed "Escape From SystemD", and pairs the Ubuntu userspace with the FreeBSD kernel. ' << l0l!
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437115 << folks with a crapple box are in for a treat when viewing this link
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 13:48:22; shinohai: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ubuntubsd-first-release <<< I think I threw up a little when I read this.
asciilifeform: (pops up a spam with 'your browser is infected!111 call this toll free number!11 complete with faux 'bsod' with vague mac theme, etc)
asciilifeform: ^ was 'malvertising', could not replicate for screenshot
assbot: Loyal Party Members Urge Xi's Resignation - China Digital Times (CDT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1T45qXA )
asciilifeform: phf: dirty emigre press
assbot: Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Sd01v1 )
asciilifeform learns that there is/was some linux distro called... Pidora. almost fell off his chair.
phf: rpi fedora, that's apropos naming right there
asciilifeform: oughta be renamed to 'pedora' so that engl. speakerz might make sense of the true meaning!11
jurov: have you ever explained how this really relates to pederasty?
jurov: ah, it's in the logs, the prison thing
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? << This could work -- it's in the vein of the 'BUTTSECKS' flag. Which seems simple enough. And the given topic-'tag' is a decent idea, i.e. 'OOM' or 'Cramer-Shoup' or 'keccak'
trinque: pffflol, dat variety speak!
trinque: I'm open to something like that; I've been doing a lot of work on deedbot lately
trinque: the cl-irc rewrite is nearly done... among other things, it can now, you know, stay online!
davout: I lol'd at bitbet's first bet: https://bitbet.us/bet/1
assbot: BitBet - Usagi FTW :: 0.11 B (14%) on Yes, 0.68 B (86%) on No | closed 3 years 6 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1XHvHKw )
BingoBoingo: more innocent times
BingoBoingo: When middled aged teacher (or whatever) who thought they were japanese teenage girls were the biggest threat model
mod6: trinque: nice!
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 1 week 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1pXwgVL )
jurov: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore?
assbot: Vectored Signatures | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvFQi8 )
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437161 << mega-l0l! which one of you jokers posted.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 16:56:58; jurov: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore?
jurov: i don't have acct there, not interested so much as to solve their impossible captchas
asciilifeform: they didn't even ~have~ captchas last time i logged in...
jurov: not login, registration
asciilifeform: at any rate, to nobody's great surprise, rubbish site has rubbish commentz, and even these - few
asciilifeform: but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented.
asciilifeform: other than mircea_popescu who actually bothered to lift one hand
asciilifeform: the thing is about an actual problem, that oughta be dealt with imho.
jurov: oh, i like the proposal, except that i'm always two minds about anything
asciilifeform: let's hear the two+ minds ?
jurov: i mean, i'd prolly need one signature with "pros" and anther one with "cons"
asciilifeform: jurov: i initially thought about doing just 1 bit, 'sig' and 'antisig'
asciilifeform: then expanded to 2, then 4, then whole byte which may be pushing it
asciilifeform: (i found it necessary to distinguish signing 'i wrote this' from 'i modified' from 'i found it as is')
asciilifeform: the dimensions i ended up with are not accidental
asciilifeform: but literally the minimum i could think of.
jurov: yes, that's fine and neat.
asciilifeform: well not really, i'm not satisfied with the result.
asciilifeform: it is clunky.
jurov: but whole idea leans in the direction of peer review, which must be some text, not collection of flags
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << compute time on my wetware has been over subscribed lately
asciilifeform: smacks of the rfc4880 idiocy
asciilifeform: i even thought about subservient keys of some kind, to express disapproval / 'i-found-it-as-it-no-endorsement', etc.
asciilifeform: but this is even worse.
jurov: i can see the signature rather like S-expression with ID of the signed artifact, approve/disapprove/etc. bits which could be parsed and would have room for free text with any other nuances the signer wanted to add
trinque: that trends towards either enumerate-all-the-feelings or simply a wad of freeform text
trinque: I prefer the latter
trinque: a descriptive comment can explain why I signed just fine
jurov: no, i mean free text + some indexable bits
trinque: right, I am contradicting you :)
trinque: why index and machine-process what should be read and considered by a brain?
jurov: for poor vtron to be able to distinguish signatures and antisignatures
trinque: the argument has yet to be made that I'd rather have your anti-signature override my other wot member's signature, rather than your persuasion elsewhere having caused me to delete his signature
trinque: from my seals dir
trinque: reminds me of key revocation actually, in the bad way
jurov: no, not override anything, such thing is up for you to decide
jurov: vtron would just say to you that the antisig from your wot exists
trinque: how does it not trend towards facebook "reactions" for vpatches ?
jurov: that would be bad thing?
asciilifeform: trinque: consider a scenario where i review, e.g., glibc
jurov: and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him
asciilifeform: and decide that it is a work of evil
asciilifeform: whose key will you remove? drepper's ? which we never ~had to begin with~ !
asciilifeform: right now i am stuck simply ~refusing to sign~ as a means of expressing disapproval
asciilifeform: which is moronic
trinque: I have an easier time seeing the benefit of a single bit of tarnish + description why
trinque: I don't think all the reasons for "why do I hate" can be represented usefully as a machine-grokkable header
asciilifeform: trinque: and what if not tarnish, but the simple-attest-without-approval ?
trinque: sign + description
asciilifeform: as in the given example with mircea_popescu and vintage bitcoin
trinque: "This is what it claims to be, and that is all I say about it." -- mp
asciilifeform: my argument is that there is a handful of EXTREMELY common situations re: signing that DON'T resolve to 'i approve of this'
asciilifeform: and that they are divisible into equivalence classes.
trinque: perhaps; that's my first stab at a reaction
trinque will ponder more
asciilifeform: and the point is not to excuse folks from the duty of writing comments
asciilifeform: but to make sure that certain situations are impossible
asciilifeform: i.e. of a vtron being confused by an enemy digging up ancient signed material.
asciilifeform: and likewise to make 'collect the words of great dead sage into coherent whole' a more workable proposition.
assbot: Logged on 10-11-2015 22:25:29; mircea_popescu: ie, there, "it's not the job of the state to protect the cultural patrimony OF INDIVIDUALS and their clans ; if those individuals and clans are so degenerate, bankrupt and chlorotioc as to no longer be able to protect their heritage, let the worms havce it. no, not even for comunist metaphisics ; no, the property of x isn't "ours", no x's history isn't "ours". let them uphold it or let it die.
trinque: I see the benefit of "this seal is just a messenger"
asciilifeform: trinque: you are reminding me of the thread where i refused to solve the problem v solves initially
asciilifeform: because 'fuck you, collect patches and check sigs and determine order YOURSELF!111'
asciilifeform: 'reactor rodz!1111'
asciilifeform: but like it or not, we have right now a situation where folks are ~not signing patches.
asciilifeform: i can only speak for myself re: why
asciilifeform: but imho i outlined a major reason.
asciilifeform: it was EMINENTLY possible to build trb pre-v.
asciilifeform: yet various clever folks had trouble, e.g., mircea_popescu, hanbot
asciilifeform: likewise it is possible to sign other folks' patches today. yet not so many of us are doing it.
asciilifeform: and the all-or-nothing factor, i think, is part of it.
asciilifeform: i, for instance, can't bring myself to sign anything from polarbeard.
asciilifeform: nor do i have the stomach to sign v-genesis of ancient stuff, i struggled with the decision of whether to sign tinyscheme
asciilifeform: because i DO NOT ENDORSE IT WHOLESALE
asciilifeform: but there was no way to express this vtronically.
asciilifeform: and this BLOWS.
assbot: asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected ... ( http://bit.ly/1MjoIXu )
asciilifeform: this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6'
asciilifeform: NOBODY ELSE bothered ?!
asciilifeform: not ben_vulpes, even ?
asciilifeform: and this is a patch without which trb is ~dead in the water~
asciilifeform: so what should i conclude, that no one bothered to read ? to sign ? or that folks had reservations? which is it.
asciilifeform: nobody, i should add, really oughta be signing unless he is ~sure~. but sure OF WHAT???
asciilifeform: signing presently conveys ONE BIT of info, and it means... ?????
mod6: <+asciilifeform> this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6' << i'll note that this signatures you're referencing are strictly for genesis.vpatch
jurov: i consider whole trb thing as something that demands my full attention, and there's always something more urgent to do...
jurov: maybe i should have been reading and signing patches instead of doing the mempool abortion
mod6: further, all other vpatches are signed by me and me and you. there are some you haven't signed either.
mod6: jurov: your mempool work was important. reading the vpatches and the ml and the SoBA is important too -- and iirc doesn't take that long to get through most of them at this point
asciilifeform: mod6: definitely there are some i did not sign, i listed one earlier
asciilifeform: and i'm not trying to be an arse to folks re: signing, but would like to know some of the ~reasons~ things aren't getting signed
asciilifeform: i listed a big one for me.
mod6: yup ok
trinque: sure, for me it's "I cannot yet swear an oath to this" and could instead say "I have been running deedbot atop this successfully for x months"
asciilifeform: i still don't see why we can't have machine-distinguishability of 'i swear this is as i found it 5 years ago' vs 'i read and understood this' vs 'i wrote this and swear with my life that it will not fail'
trinque: I can see the pragmatism of it
asciilifeform: does anyone recall mircea_popescu's original push re: signing code ?
asciilifeform: there was this notion that folks might read old stuff and sign a subset
asciilifeform: well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of
asciilifeform: and a pretty big chunk of my efforts in reading ~questionable crud~, which i do a great deal of, is wasted
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've been waiting for the "what does a signature convey" conversation to sign anything.
asciilifeform: in the sense that it leaves no serious perma-record.
asciilifeform: see there we have it.
ben_vulpes: right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated
ben_vulpes: there is, so far, no "this sucks, but it introduces no new lies" bit.
asciilifeform: so this makes 2 of us.
thestringpuller: can signatures have numerical notation like GPG trustdb?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: scalar is mega-inadequate.
asciilifeform: i rejected this idea immediately.
thestringpuller: it needs to be discrete?
asciilifeform: no, there is more than one dimension.
thestringpuller: so what else is there? linear? parabolic?
ben_vulpes: i was even uncomfortable signing the genesis vpatch. what does that even mean -- "this is actually some variant of satoshi's hairball"?
ben_vulpes: "this bitcoinates - i do swear"?
asciilifeform: see there we go
asciilifeform: i signed it, but it had a distinct feel of falling on a necessary grenade
ben_vulpes: "this may contain pernicious hdd-wrecking nasties i'm unaware of, but is the closest thing to a bitcoinator i know of"?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: didja read my modest proposal thing ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: thoughts ?
ben_vulpes: i did.
ben_vulpes: still thinking.
ben_vulpes: it hints at ameliorating my concerns.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 17:59:11; thestringpuller: so what else is there? linear? parabolic?
thestringpuller: "In mathematical field of representation theory, a quaternionic representation is a representation on a complex vector space V with an invariant quaternionic structure"
jurov: thestringpuller: "complex vector space" sounds like fitting description of human attitude toward the matter being signed
jurov: btw, i have misread first mention of it as "vectored thrust" and imagined "wow S.NSA is finally onto ICBMs. Or space program?"
mircea_popescu: jurov> and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him << it's not so simple, really. it's not a sudden and visible thing, just slow slide towards shitworld where you wake up one day and wonder wtf happened. much like irl marriages.
nubbins`: went to fight a parking ticket today, the crown had no evidence and the cop who wrote the ticket didn't show up
nubbins`: sigh
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated << this is a very cogent point ; and i feel rather the same way.
mircea_popescu: haha win
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho single-bit scalar pgp is rather like car with sole control being a gas pedal.
mircea_popescu: i imagine that's a rabbit with a whiplash sore penis huh
nubbins`: asciilifeform multi-bit vector pgp sounds about as rat-nesty as a tag-based log tracking system
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i invite you to comment on my post, possibly suggest a cleaner solution to the problem ?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: because there is a very real problem.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of << and who's to say, even if you wrote everything at one layer, that something doesn't fuck you in the butt from a layer below? we don't have computers. never did.
asciilifeform: mod6: separate issue.
mod6: but "i swear this werks!!", then someone runs your shit and it ~should~ work, but doesn't because of unforseen hardware, or configuration or cosmic rays.
mircea_popescu: mod6 that is the crux of the problem. there is no such thing as separatability in software anyway.
asciilifeform: ~this~ being specifically the this that you wrote.
mod6: nothing is certain.
asciilifeform: ~this~ aspect is separable.
mod6: we're all just rolling the dice.
asciilifeform: 'why wash hands? patients will die anyway'
asciilifeform: nonsense.
mircea_popescu: moreover, the issue of "it's kernel's fault" "no dude is program's fault" requires very complex analysis most people are unable to engage in, and in any case unable to finance even if they could somehow engage in it
mod6: hey hey
mod6: it doesn't mean that it's still not probablistic.
mircea_popescu: basically giving the day to the usual obamas with simple ideas and an insistence to repeat their nonsense.
nubbins`: asciilifeform no, on first chuff it looks sensible; not that much more long-winded than a file permissions block
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: since when do we 'most people'
mod6: 99.9995% of time it works. except for when it doesnt.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since you caqn't stop talking to them.
mircea_popescu: now plox to let me be.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case, the idea of responsibility in software is a lot more difficult to implement than previously hoped.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh i didn't wake you up, did i
mod6: mircea_popescu: well, indeed. i mean, i can "swear and affirm" that my code won't fail you, but really, I can't be certain one way or another. too many variables.
mircea_popescu: and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault.
asciilifeform: imho the concept of taking responsibility for ~the material you wrote~ is not a difficult one
mircea_popescu: yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it.
nubbins`: asciilifeform this also opens up the option for interesting filters, e.g. no need to display "heart" field if "brain" is 00, etc
mod6: mircea_popescu: formally, a group would have to be constructed to investigate and analyze failures and place blame where beyond required -- if it can be proved beyond any doubt.
mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work
mod6: for sure
mircea_popescu: much like it is cheaper for universities to universities than to actually teach anyone anything
mod6: hhaha
mod6: yes
asciilifeform: no shit
mircea_popescu: and moreover, even with the best of intentions, the defense of the group is expensive and arduous, and everyone's got better shit to do.
mod6: we're just at this moment in history where everything sucks.,
mod6: we have no computers, we have almost no sound money, everything is faux.
mircea_popescu: like in that film with the guy who keeps waking up in the same place.
asciilifeform: we are, however, overrun with vermin, and this opens up astonishing perspectives in pesticidal work
mod6: until we have computers, and i mean "have computers" in the sense that alf would be happy to say he has a "comptuer", whatever that means.
mod6: we can't have real true responsibiltiy of code ownership.
asciilifeform: mod6: last week i finally built... a computer.
asciilifeform: it runs on a 6502 !
mod6: no way
mod6: no fucking way
asciilifeform: you will prolly not want one.
asciilifeform: promise.
mod6: i may want one!
mod6: is it deterministic?!
mod6: turing complete?
asciilifeform: but you already have, chances are, a 6502 micro somewhere in the cellar.
mod6: well, maybe alf is farther along on this journey than anyone had thought. and maybe "sucks" is only very temporary.
mod6: but until we all have shit that doesn't suck... we're kinda just waiting until it doens't suck. in the context of blame and "i don't have to /hope/ this thing works, I know mod6 said it does, ergo, it works."
asciilifeform: mod6: it is a parachute, in case certain things happen.
mod6: is the 6502 those cocaine looking packages you got?
asciilifeform: mod6: that was support chipset, and a buncha z80
mod6: ah. thats right.
asciilifeform: (largely 74xxx logic, and buncha srams, eproms)
mod6: anyway, sorry for the rant. but it is not lost on me how hosed up "computer land" is these days.
mod6: its like a house in malibu, built on stilts, on the side of a hill that mud slides after .25" of rain.
asciilifeform: mod6: which is why islands of sanity are ~everything~.
mod6: worse probably.
mircea_popescu: the one problematic part is that stilts or no stilts, the product is actually very well adapted to the market it serves.
mircea_popescu: not like the actual malibu dwellers are coerced to live in the vinyl sidings abominations. meeting of the minds.
asciilifeform: real-airplane is largely wasted on aborigines, aha
mod6: haha.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:48:46; mircea_popescu: and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437334 << the distance from workable theory to cold iron here is quite short, and eminently bridgeable. if we had the usable theory. which is a problem i was taking a stab at.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:49:37; mircea_popescu: yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it.
asciilifeform: i keep getting the feeling that we only half-solved vtronics
asciilifeform: in the same sense that, e.g., edison, half-solved electric grid distribution
asciilifeform: now i could be wrong, entirely, and this-is-as-solved-as-it-gets
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work
mod6: maybe having different keys (key certifing "i read this" [eyes] / "I wrote this" [hands] / ... etc.) is an analog for the polyphase system that replaced it.
asciilifeform: mod6: multitudes of keys are iffy
mod6: and you sign your vtron keys with your one regular key? i dunno.
asciilifeform: i actually considered this, in the beginning.
asciilifeform: 'subkeys' suck donkey ballz.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other. << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work
mod6: I think if people can make punishment first, they will. cause no == yes && yes == anal.
mod6: who's to say what is anything
mod6: Welcome nihlistic Monday
asciilifeform: whole point of the instrument is to ~make it possible for there to be such a thing as a Who~
asciilifeform: just as running water strongly enables, but does not guarantee, hygiene
asciilifeform: folks still gotta take the time to wash.
mod6: without quality random numbers, we can't have certifiable cryptographic identities.
mod6: who's to say anyone is anyone when P & Q are fingerfucked by the NSA or other spooks.
asciilifeform: !s the man who was thursday
assbot: 8 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday
asciilifeform: am i the only one here right now who isn't sitting in a dark room with a bottle of vodka and loaded nagant ?
mod6: im no
mod6: t
mod6: anyway, that looks like an interesting novel.
davout: asciilifeform: with tmsr~ spanning a few timezones, there's bound to always be someone with an open bottle
mod6: But my good man, a serious cornerstone / building block to sanity and in the direction of "workable" computer will come when your work is complete and I can get quality random numbers.
mod6: other than some otp
asciilifeform: mod6: what do you mean 'some otp'
pete_dushenski: !s stuck node
assbot: 22 results for 'stuck node' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=stuck+node
asciilifeform: mod6: and i probably ought to point out that 'quality random' was baked long ago, ben_vulpes actually took a sample unit home after c3...
mod6: one guy!
mod6: ook anyway, one time pad - i can create with dice no?
mod6: now i gotta dig something up on trilema. thought there was an article?
pete_dushenski: http://dpaste.com/1PHC5RR.txt << my last 1000 lines of debug.log on my own stuck node, if anyone's interested
asciilifeform: mod6: debiasing dice is a bitch
pete_dushenski: it's jammed twice in the last week now.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: how long has it been ?
mod6: asciilifeform: hm. im misremembering something. eitherway, outside of well, anywhere really, i can't think of a single place in the known universe where the nsa can't diddle your shit.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the most recent jam was at 403`396
asciilifeform: mod6: i am comfortable in the supposition that nsa cannot yet travel backwards in time.
asciilifeform: nor perform 'esp'
mod6: we've got a lot of stuff to fabricate and create.
asciilifeform: mod6: until then - to excavate.
mod6: ya. this hardware scares the bahjeesus out of me.
asciilifeform: megatonnes of perfectly-good 1980s lsi lying around.
mod6: i want like some 1971 vac shit.
mod6: i think i need to start doing all of my computing with paper and pencil, in a room with no doors, no windows or lights.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the weirder thing is that the stuck node is on the physical box i have, not either of the two vpses i have. and all are running 99997k or 99996k.
asciilifeform: mod6: l0l
asciilifeform: mod6: and if you were thinking of vax, 1st one was sold in, iirc, '77
mod6: ah,. yeah vax. i was kidding anyway.
mod6: i should look at some 80's hardware and see if I can spin up a rig.
asciilifeform: mod6: i started with this.
asciilifeform: mod6: prolly ought to share my observations here.
asciilifeform: ~actual, whole~ '80s micro is a good toy and learning instrument, but poor foundation for a battlefield system.
mod6: ah. hrm.
asciilifeform: largely because - while they were indeed built on top of some excellent 8-bit cpu, most of which can still be had -
asciilifeform: they also contained various custom i/o, that is gnarly, of heavy incidental complexity, and - importantly - cannot be had in new production
asciilifeform: and is not even in all cases 100% documented, so will be difficult to re-create.
asciilifeform: in other instances, there are anachronisms that create wholly unnecessary problems, e.g., tape and extinct disk systems
asciilifeform: whereas thing really oughta take modern 'flash'
mod6: Hmm.
mod6: pete_dushenski: i didn't see anything crazy in there. runnign with -connect or -addnode?
mod6: so i/o drivers need to be written by hand alf?
asciilifeform: mod6: 'drivers' is not really a meaningful concept on a 64k box
mod6: heheh
asciilifeform: this, i must add, is not an official s.nsa project of any kind. but it is there on my desk with a dozen other items of 'parachute' variety
asciilifeform: i once decided to determine the simplest box that could be assembled from readily-available (preferebly, sov-block) components, that could GENERATE and OPERATE a reasonable onetimepad.
asciilifeform: and carry out certain other operations
mod6: is it crazy to think that said chip you're talking about be re-constructed on a fpga, perhaps many of them on one fpga?
asciilifeform: (e.g., lamport signature; burn & verify eproms; etc)
pete_dushenski: mod6: -connect
asciilifeform: mod6: you could fit 500 of them on a cheap fpga. but you will be using an AMERICAN FPGA
pete_dushenski: mod6: to two of the b-a nodes and one of my own
asciilifeform: y'know, the ones with 0 docs
mod6: once fully sync'd pete_dushenski, make a back up your your block chain, and then use -addnode
pete_dushenski: mod6: will do :]
mod6: -connect is great for getting blocks from a trusted node, but you're only connected to just that node. so if there is some sort of blocking issue... you might get starved.
mod6: asciilifeform: do any worthwhile FPGAs' with open docs exist at any price?
asciilifeform: mod6: nope.
mod6: you've been over this a hundred times im sure.
mod6: sorry.
mod6: goddamnit. we need some sane hardware and quality random numbers.
phf: asciilifeform: but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << i'm not groking how that's supposed to work with gpg signatures
mod6: we'll get there.
mod6: phf: well, other than saying "interesting" and "cool", i couldn't figure out how to do that either. unless we create a vtron signature style in 'g' or is it 'p'? i cant recall.. cause how will someones vtron be able to pull the bit string out to know how to categorize someones seal?
mod6: this is all implementation and theory.
asciilifeform: if i'm gonna depend on an antique, i'd rather take one that was made in qty 500,000,000 in 11 countries. than 10,000 in usa-only.
mod6: I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet.
asciilifeform: phf: it isn't
asciilifeform: though i considered, brifly, hijacking the high bits of the timestamp 32b field for it
asciilifeform: (but decided that this was retarded)
asciilifeform: *briefly
mod6: asciilifeform: if the various bits for hands/eyes/heart/brain are not to be in anyway invovled with a signature, any thoughts on how we pass these around with the signature?
asciilifeform: mod6: this was deliberately not specified
mod6: oh, i see.
asciilifeform: there is no clean way to do it with classical gpg
mod6: gotcha
mod6: right
mod6: but since you're writing one... you could wrap that in there perhaps?
mod6: werd.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437473 << a CORRECT approach and literally 1 line of sed is worth 10,000 hours of misguided toolmaking.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:01; mod6: I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet.
asciilifeform: think, e.g., 'vdiff'.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437476 <<< why's that retarded? kindof the first thing i thought about when reading your piece
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:53; asciilifeform: (but decided that this was retarded)
asciilifeform: davout: because it breaks things.
asciilifeform: and, importantly, ~fails~ to break things that oughta break
trinque: asciilifeform: can you make yours give proper exit codes pls? :)
asciilifeform: trinque: waiwut
trinque: I was horrified to discover yesterday that gpg does not exit nonzero when a sig doesn't verify
asciilifeform: trinque: l0l! srsly? which gpg?!
trinque: it craps an error message, yes, but otherwise exit 0
trinque: 1.4.19 over here
davout: asciilifeform: specifically?
asciilifeform: and anyway why are you relying on the exit code ?
trinque: I'm not; just saw it while rewriting deedbot
asciilifeform: davout: if using format of classic gpg, there is no way to uniquely specify 'this is vtronically signed'
asciilifeform: so you will never know if sig is made by old or new.
phf: trinque: because gpg --verify is not intended to be used in batch process, if you're doing verification specifically should be using gpgv, which also expects env (keys in dbs specifically) to be in a certain state
asciilifeform: afaik using any reserved bits (algo field) will nuke ordinary gpg.
assbot: gpg --verify exit status ... ( http://bit.ly/1UzkL3g )
davout: asciilifeform: hardfork is indeed cleaner aha
davout: trinque: my 1.4.19 outputs 0 for correct sig, 1 for incorrect sig, 2 for unsigned data
trinque: davout: hm seems I might've been wrong
trinque fiddles moar
asciilifeform: trinque: motherfucking KEYRINGS arrggh
trinque: hm yeah, dunno how I was getting exit 0; might've been a case of having used inferior-shell wrong earlier
asciilifeform: phf: one of the big reasons gpg is a turd is the 'keys in dbs' idiocy
asciilifeform: FUCK hidden state
asciilifeform: state is what the motherfucking file system is for
asciilifeform: when it cannot be avoided
asciilifeform: and if it doesn't come in explicitly and deliberately through the command line or stdio, it doesn't belong in the input.
asciilifeform: FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'.
asciilifeform: if i wanted registry, i would fucking run winblowz.
asciilifeform froths, like a rabid dog
mod6: 'keyring' is alf's pavlovian trigger
asciilifeform: actually the bell and the food dish are my pavlovian trigger.
mod6: haha, what you hear the bell and you mentally think 'food' and you see food dish and think 'bell' ?
trinque: as long as the filesystem in question lets me find things rapidly by searching over metadata, I will happily give up my black boxes of such
asciilifeform: neighbour trained the cats to come out of hiding when she bangs on the dish
phf: main reason gpg is turd, because was written for dos and frozen into spec that way. provided functionally is composite and doesn't "do one thing well". instead of freeform key annotation has explicit "name, email, comment" fields, instead of easy way to spawn many keys, has a convoluted key hierarchy, etc.
trinque mumbles about befs with bottle of booze in hand
asciilifeform: phf: you can always tell the smell of microshit
asciilifeform: and yes, ultimately it is why it has own idiotronic db
asciilifeform: because it 'had to' exist on idiot os with 8char filenames
asciilifeform: there are reasons why my first act re trb was to exterminate all compatibility with microshit
asciilifeform: because it merely being A THING is pernicious.
mod6: GnuPG-~1
mod6: stab
asciilifeform: you can't 'live and let live' with microshit.
asciilifeform: it will entumour you.
phf: i have love/hate relationship with dos
asciilifeform: phf: i think we all do
mod6: where does the love come in?
asciilifeform: mod6: mircea_popescu had a good article, iirc, on this. it was the last gasp of the 'my computer is mine and i know how it works' era.
asciilifeform: this, and also most of the games ever made that imho were worth playing, were on it.
asciilifeform: i will have a dos box until i die.
mod6: ah.
asciilifeform: and i don't think i will live long enough to fully exhaust the excellent gamez.
asciilifeform: dos pc was also the absolute pinnacle of the make-own-hardware era
asciilifeform: whereas go and try make a pci-e card.
phf: mod6: low cognitive load, for a significant payoff. great games, enough useful software to solve all day to day problems, a handful of dev environments (including emacs, gcc, clisp besides native Turbo * stuff) to solve any possible problems that might come up
asciilifeform: eh dos emacs sucked arse
asciilifeform: serious devs used turboc, or, in the very end days, watcom.
asciilifeform: (watcom rocked absolutely)
phf: i don't mean Emacs, but dos emacs is enough for the "i have text, i need to shape text into new text" tasks
asciilifeform: i used norton commander's editor for 99% of things.
phf: so did i, but i mean this for the hypothetical, "move back to dos and fuck y'all" retreat :]
phf: like if forced i could spend rest of life with a dos machine, can't say the same for os x 10.10, but that of course assumes that i somehow don't ever have to work, and in fact live in a "concent" for the rest of life
asciilifeform: phf: this is pretty much my entire ambition in life
asciilifeform: i.e. to get to where i can just have the dos box.
mod6: let's rewrite everything in asm and scheme
mod6 runs
asciilifeform: (in proper 'concent', 'syndevs' not permitted!111 gotta write in ink, on paper from paper treez!)
mats: is this a slav thing, 'concent', 'syndevs'?
phf: i assume we're pre-second sack (or first for that matter)
mod6: speaking of which... if we were still going to use scheme, long-term, i'd probably re-write my vtron in scheme -- if for no other reason, to learn it.
mod6: but I think I might take a stab at writting it in ada so I can learn that with a proper example instead.
mod6: i dunno, maybe. need something useful to fuck around with to learn that stuff.
mod6: then maybe will be able to pitch in for adacoin
phf: mats: we're doing silly http://www.amazon.com/dp/006147410X references
assbot: Anathem: Neal Stephenson: 9780061474101: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvYoyN )
mats: ok
asciilifeform: mega-b000k
trinque: mod6: incidentally, list-o-megab00ks would be a great use case for that !tag thing
ben_vulpes: what, people don't maintain their own list of books as suggested by the individuals in chan?
ben_vulpes: what is this automating of the mental reactor rods!?
ben_vulpes: stay limber in your head and effective at your keyboard, and do everything manually why not
trinque: uh, no.
trinque: I want lists of things. I am not a damned secretary
ben_vulpes hands trinque a pineapple and broomstick
phf: i usually fail to come back to lists, but i think i've read most things recommended on b-a, the frequency is actually low enough that you can put things in a pile and catch up pretty fast
trinque puts pineapple on the end of broomstick, makes weapon
ben_vulpes: for sitting
mod6: trinque: yeah for sure.
mircea_popescu: mod6 << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. << there is no possible division between "punishment" no matter how defined and trust in any reasonable sense. either what you say matters, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards "too hard for peoeple, who just want to..." or what you say doesn't matter, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards welfare state. it is what in math
mircea_popescu: ematics is known as a pole. attempts to create a netherworld between the sharply divergent f(x) and f(x+e) is what i've recently discovered - through the usual stepping on research process - to be a landmine.
mircea_popescu: in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space.
assbot: DOJ may have found a way to hack into terrorist's iPhone - Mar. 21, 2016 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RgnCIO )
mircea_popescu: terrorists have iphones ? the weird world.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 195000 @ 0.00005012 = 9.7734 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437588 << waaaaiwut..?? did we uninvent wot now ?
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:11:33; mircea_popescu: in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space.
asciilifeform: what am i missing.
mircea_popescu: the wot is not related to this discussion.
mircea_popescu: FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'. << so true this.
mircea_popescu: it's stress syndrome already, lifeforms fully aware they live in shit. "i'ma make myself a house!"
asciilifeform: i thought whole point of wot was to a) bare your chest to the knife and b) to even have a chest
mircea_popescu: wot is not supporting of a single notion of identity. what x signature is varies irreconcillably among the users, by design and deliberately.
mircea_popescu: for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone.
mircea_popescu: the wot is eminently private and so deeply irreducible to public that it doesn't even matter it is publicly visible
mircea_popescu: a model mirrored in the itnended design of gossipd.
asciilifeform: well signature comes with a mechanical algo for verification; everything beyond that is 'promise', rather than protocol
asciilifeform: but the thing about 'may as well not be visible' is dead on
asciilifeform: who the fuck knows what so-and-so's ratings ~really~ meant, but him and his inner circle (if that)
asciilifeform: which is why the gossip model of wot is the correct one, where there is no attempt at global/'canonical' state, but only a series of questions, which folks may choose to answer - or not - depending on who asks.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437595 << somebody's packin' for a trip to mars or what.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:35:26; assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: !t m s.nsa
assbot: [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.00005 / 0.00007428 / 0.000085 (634821 shares, 47.16 BTC), 7D: 0.00005 / 0.00007517 / 0.000085 (692100 shares, 52.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00005 / 0.00007521 / 0.000086 (695100 shares, 52.28 BTC)
jurov: ^ martians, too?
asciilifeform: jurov: i meant, that somebody is selling megatonnes of various.
asciilifeform: incl. it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5150 @ 0.00041827 = 2.1541 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: yes, and withdrawing.. and i have to ping mircea_popescu again
asciilifeform: l0l i thought jurov had already sold
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437604 << this is ~exactly~ what i was aiming at with 'v algebra' thing, to see if it is possible to expand the 'real part' of signature.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:50:23; mircea_popescu: for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone.
asciilifeform: i do not yet know if it is possible.
mircea_popescu: gynaeceum in any case.
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu is presently in the 'nothing to be gained from machine-readable encodings of signature meanings' school of thought ?
mircea_popescu: i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought.
asciilifeform: this i can see.
asciilifeform: even with my amoeba eye.
phf: <mircea_popescu> [20:02:06] i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought. << i failed to parse, you saying "technology won't solve" has been overused, and there's need to lean in opposite direction?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437589 << l0l, mcafee finally desoldered the nand for them? or one of the other 10,001 folks who offered.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:17:55; shinohai: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/doj-apple-hearing/index.html dun, dun DUN
mircea_popescu: phf there's no need to lean or anything ; but the fact remains that if you're unhappy with the way in which fights between toddlers and adults are coming out, giving the toddlers fancier rifles is not likely to do much.
asciilifeform: (the real question is why usg would ever admit to it - whole point of the charade was to build precedent-setting verdict. i suppose this outcome became in doubt, and whole thing was brought to what is intended as a quiet burial ?)
mircea_popescu: pretty much the ~only way such an attempt ends up is into a f-35, sooner or later.
hanbot: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << that sounds like the most sane solution on tap for efficiency & accuracy both. and honestly...crawling back through the last coupla weeks' logs to study this i couldn't really be paid. much as i'd like to lend some time to folks actually doing good work, this place is reeking rotten already.
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?
asciilifeform: imho this is a spiffy idea. 'tagbot' ?
mircea_popescu: the all-permeating smell of the young male, eh ? supposedly the world is built on these, you know.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on their corpses, not them as such
mircea_popescu: btw, let me introduce hanbot to you asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: i was of the notion you two had previously met.
hanbot: mircea_popescu i'm really interested in 'em, dead or alive.
hanbot: *not
asciilifeform: we met at c2 & 3
asciilifeform: and hanbot was my 1st contact here
assbot: Logged on 08-03-2016 17:07:08; asciilifeform: anyway i do not know hanbot very well, cannot speak for hanbot.
asciilifeform: i know hanbot, as she knows i, largely by works.
asciilifeform: largely as i know mircea_popescu.
mircea_popescu: well it's good i said something then. anyway.
phf: prometheus was appropriately punished for his infraction, but little good that did
mircea_popescu: as this stuff usually works, eh.
asciilifeform finally grasps that mircea_popescu is going through the miserable l0gz
hanbot: mircea_popescu you know that line gave me pause at the time, but i figured he was entertaining the noisebox so what do i know what he's answering to. all in all though, pretty odd.
mircea_popescu: no, i'm not. i noticed it then, and was deeply surprised she was even considering doing anything ; not surprised in the end result.
asciilifeform: hanbot: to clarify, i meant that i cannot presume to speak for other people, esp. ones who i have not interacted with at great length
asciilifeform: i.e. i might have a crude emulated mircea_popescu living in my head, but not a very well developed hanbot
asciilifeform: btw my emulated micropopescu is stabbing me with a sharpened toothbrush. is this a correct spec behaviour ?
hanbot: eh, don't worry about it asciilifeform
phf: there was a blog in the early days of medium, that was basically snippets from irc conversations. my impression was that the display software was gradually hacked into turning out increasingly cleaner posts through various in-channel annotations, like ;tag, ;post, etc. there was significant amount of editorializing though. so someone was responsible, at the end of the thread, to turn it into a post. we kind of have that adhoc, and md
phf: does it the most, but we could help or outright automate the process through annotations
phf: *mp
phf: i periodically try and remember its name to plunder for ideas, but failing so far..
trinque: I'm nearly done with my deedbot- rewrite; I could add this as well. deed the list of tags per $interval or something
trinque: phf: took your example and wrote a CLOS thing for pluggable services.
phf: nice :)
trinque: new deedbot currently lurks in #deedbutt-test
trinque: guy even knows how to ghost his nick
asciilifeform: trinque: mighty spiffy
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes i am an arse! with no social graces! but my aspiration is that when i finally go to the woodchipper, folks will remember the pile of dead nazis, and not how i was arse.
trinque: asciilifeform: perhaps usg's threat is they will shame Apple in public unless they privately bend over more obediently
phf: "i don't speak for hanbot for hanbot has a tongue."
asciilifeform: phf ^ has it.
asciilifeform: trinque: how does a finger muppet 'privately' do anything to another finger muppet on the same glove ?
asciilifeform: phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ?
trinque: perhaps usg asked something drastic enough apple is concerned
asciilifeform: trinque: nowhere in what crapple sells is there to be found anything posing so much as a temporary annoyance to hitler.
asciilifeform: (ditto google et al)
trinque: absent that I have to assume sheer incoherence on the part of hitler
asciilifeform: trinque: no incoherence, i can remove the motherfucking nand ~here~ in this godforsaken hovel
asciilifeform: and so can 10,000,001 other folks
trinque: incoherent that they ever made a public fight of it
trinque: given that.
asciilifeform: trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders
phf: asciilifeform: nah, was actual blog, i started reading it when it had coherent topical posts, but studying their history, it started as snippets and gradually acquired features. like early posts were straight up logs, later names were stripped and only text from "posters" retained, etc.
asciilifeform: trinque: and also to make some noise, and give the 'aspiring terrorists should buy crapple devices!' honeytrap a boost
trinque: that I can see
asciilifeform: phf: now this i have never seen, but would like to, if you turn it up again
phf: asciilifeform: so i actually made an effort to go through my notes and found it immediately, http://2lmc.org/spool/. they nuked their entire log and just one static page remains, hmm
assbot: 2lmc spool - recent spoolage ... ( http://bit.ly/1pYCIvP )
phf: but you can get general idea
asciilifeform: very neat
asciilifeform: i esp. like the footer.
phf: old school snark
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2013/me-aged-5 << got this in trilemarandom and it is mega-lulzy. now i want to find the cartoon! and watch.
assbot: Me, aged 5 on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MyxviX )
mircea_popescu: trinque> guy even knows how to ghost his nick << nice stuff.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i once met a young girl who thought she is no good with math. she was creative you see, and on her grave was to be inscribed a vintage purse rather than a badly unresolved equation.
mircea_popescu: she can integrate now, and it didn't even take that many whippings.
asciilifeform: neato, where do i sign up!
asciilifeform: i'd like the badly unresolved eq on mine tho
asciilifeform: por favor.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 http://cs.fit.edu/~ryan/ada/programs << you will find these useful, i did
assbot: Ada Programs ... ( http://bit.ly/1NTHkaB )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !s vintage purse
assbot: 2 results for 'vintage purse' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=vintage+purse
asciilifeform: it was definitely shorthand for something
phf: asciilifeform: etsy as failed woman minimax, sort of the opposite of theorems
asciilifeform: aha i found the thread
asciilifeform: interestingly, if it were not for mircea_popescu , i would have never learned this
asciilifeform: that planet is entirely invisible from my optics
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ? << i don't think he is and i have a vague recollection of this from the very early 2000s that i also can't place
mircea_popescu: but if you asked me i'd have thought mine was romanian
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders << i think trinque is much closer to the facts of the field. beast doth not know what it wants not merely for the provable impossibility of such a want, but mostly for absence of a want organ.
asciilifeform: the latest twist suggests this.
asciilifeform: i can see no possible ~logic~ for announcing 'someone opened it' and torpedoing own case
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> now i want to find the cartoon! and watch. << http://documents.tips/documents/carte-balaica-si-bobocel.html
assbot: Carte Balaica Si Bobocel - Documents ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgVjQG )
mircea_popescu: it wasn't a cartoon. it was a "book of practical activities for making puppets and designing scenes". superadvanced art stuff for ro genius kids
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's story re wanting the jewels reminds me of mine
asciilifeform: i begged my elder brother to give me, somehow, some ~numbers~
asciilifeform: as in, physical
asciilifeform: somehow the notion entered my head that this was possible
mircea_popescu: poor woman
mircea_popescu: o wait, your brother ?
asciilifeform: he found some toy puzzle thing that nominally satisfied, but i knew it was a sham.
asciilifeform: and i wouldn't listen to any explanation of how it couldn't be done.
mircea_popescu: pretty tall order.
phf: give me here on a platter the head of john the baptist
mircea_popescu: that at least could be satisfied. even in 80s cold dark romania, proper jools could in principle be had.
mircea_popescu: but numbers ?
mircea_popescu: much long ago, when chet was a young woman, with children like many here she tried to prepare herself, like many here try. so she had an answer all ready for the eventual inevitable moment her oldest was going to inquire why the sky is blue.
mircea_popescu: the child wanted to know "why sky".
asciilifeform: aha! WHY?!
mircea_popescu: go, tell three year old that the sky isn't a thing, pristina rosa, all that.
mircea_popescu: in other crazy news, i just popped (ie, got a major loot) in eulora. 1+ bitcent's worth of brave man's nosehairs.
mircea_popescu: like 60k of the things.
mod6: thanks for the pointer asciilifeform
asciilifeform: (113 pgs)
mod6: oh yeah, this first link is a trove of examples. nice.
mod6: If the software must absolutely work wit
mod6: hout error, where a software accident could
mod6: kill or maim, Ada is the correct choice.
mod6: sounds like the right idea
asciilifeform: sorta why i unearthed it.
phf: (load-canonical-entries)
phf: oops, my first ben_vulpes
mod6: haha
mod6: there have been, three people iirc that have pasted their passwords in here
asciilifeform: mod6: i got into ada ~1y ago. and it was ~very~ reluctantly.
asciilifeform: it is a very painful thing, to work in. to the point that as early as the first months folks made jokes that it was a ploy to bog down soviet research establishment, plan being that they would copy it and grind to a halt !
mod6: yeah, i'd seen the name before, but never heard anything about it until you were talkin about it. now it interests me because bitcoin needs to work better than a goddamn 777
asciilifeform: (su, afaik, never took it up, but pascal was strong there)
mod6: hahaha
mod6: well, we'll see when i start getting into it. ive liked playing with scheme.
asciilifeform: i can almost guarantee you won't like ada then.
mod6: i've bee working my way though all the examples in sicp
mod6: eh, im sure if i get the hang of its conventions, etc., i'll get somehow masochistically into it.
asciilifeform: the canonical text is by one barnes
asciilifeform: i have the 2012 ed.
mod6: oh i got that one ref manual from 95
asciilifeform: (the ~actual~ canon is the standard and rationale books, but they are painful to learn from when n00b)
mod6: yeah, flipping through the book -- it's pretty dense.
mod6: Ada 95 Reference Manual. Language and Standard Libraries: International Standard << this one
mod6: is tail recursion always defined such that there are O(n) steps in O(1) space?
asciilifeform: mod6: only if you have tail-call optimization
asciilifeform: as in, e.g., scheme
mircea_popescu: if its optiminm
asciilifeform: but not, for the most part, anywhere else
mod6: right, they said something about C/C++/et.al that have a loop construct such as 'do/while' 'for' 'foreach' etc, as a defect in the lang. lol
mircea_popescu: did everyone see the funarg funerales argentinos thing ?
mircea_popescu: it's still making me chuckle.
asciilifeform: they solved the funarg problem!11
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, bitcoin needs not merely a "protocol standard".
mircea_popescu: it needs the fucking standard AND RATIONALE book.
mircea_popescu: and we won't even fucking know the standard is anything but elaborate cumcake until the rationale part stands up.
asciilifeform: it was the rationale b000k that sold me on putting on the apocalyptic gas mask and doing ada at all.
mircea_popescu: and we don't even have the fucking conceptual girder to even comprehend what the rationale'd be on (in terms of, what are the primitives)
mircea_popescu: maybe it should be all based on colors for all we know.
asciilifeform: quaternions!11
mats: on a moar flippant note,
mats: i found a 24x36in wooden frame and currently looking for pranks to play with it (apr1 is fast approaching)
mats: my best idea is to print a hi-res portrait of a coworker and put something like 'January 1985 to March 2016' at the bottom, then hide in the office somewhere
mats: but, i am open to proposals
mircea_popescu: make a fake wasp nest ?
mats: (idea with prior is, folks see portrait, then coworker, wonder why a dead man is walking around)
mats: a wasps nest could be good, however, i am not strong in the crafting arts
mats: i also considered a portrait of myself, perhaps in a classic mao pose
mats: or deng xiaoping
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