Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-02-20 | 2016-02-22 → ↓
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4450 @ 0.0005633 = 2.5067 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26707 @ 0.00056327 = 15.0433 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:12:28; mod6: for some reason, this guys friggin thing apparently wont verify, except for me. i seem to be the only one who has a gpg & his key that'll verify this damn thing
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411821 << no looky, it's not meant in that sense at all. just letting you know that we love you!
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:24:10; mod6: if someone knows what the problem is here, please submit. if testing is need, lets do it. all those things. telling me to take a break, or calm down, or take a vacation is not a solution.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411859 << nope exactly what i think also. and i'm closer to the financial field than fucking hardware.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:45:43; asciilifeform: also am i the only one to whom 'unbanked' evokes a way of connecting memory ?
mircea_popescu: us-style retail banking is an abominable pile of nonsense the likes of which nightmares are made of.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10798 @ 0.00056646 = 6.1166 BTC [+]
punkman: asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud. << my vtron digests conflicting patches
punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: ty, great find
phf: my v can beat up your v
deedbot-: [Qntra] Linux Mint Server Compromised, Spread Malware - http://qntra.net/2016/02/linux-mint-server-compromised-spread-malware/
BingoBoingo: nuts, gotta protect them if you've got em'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53552 @ 0.00056431 = 30.2199 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23716 @ 0.0005623 = 13.3355 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29800 @ 0.00056151 = 16.733 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00056206 = 9.4145 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60000 @ 0.00056151 = 33.6906 BTC [-]
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 5.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Bernie Sanders will be Democrats' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1242/bernie-sanders-will-be-democrats-2016-presidential-nominee/#b22
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Ted Cruz will be the Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1246/ted-cruz-will-be-the-republicans-2016-presidential/#b14
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27860 @ 0.00056078 = 15.6233 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15202 @ 0.00055919 = 8.5008 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57598 @ 0.00055865 = 32.1771 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Misery | Drupal.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1mPPUki )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54088 @ 0.00055861 = 30.2141 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.0005599 = 12.1498 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38950 @ 0.0005586 = 21.7575 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00055813 = 31.5902 BTC [-] {3}
ben_vulpes: yo where da trinque at
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell trinque yo hey yo hey
gribble: The operation succeeded.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.03600000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b72
mats: heatin up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.0005601 = 11.314 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: no mention of handicap
ben_vulpes: that bet is going to surprise some people
ben_vulpes: alphago can "win" with handicap of 12 stones and that bet goes green
ben_vulpes: unless mp^H^Hmods decide 'overall' has some magical meaning
adlai: so "some people" made an ass out of them and himself
adlai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://dpaste.com/34BA0H6.txt
gribble: The operation succeeded.
adlai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo /me accidentally a word http://dpaste.com/3WX0P03.txt
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00055935 = 9.1174 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67200 @ 0.00056242 = 37.7946 BTC [+] {2}
mats: i don't see why there would be a handicap now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97621 @ 0.00056802 = 55.4507 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056679 = 30.2666 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38673 @ 0.00056929 = 22.0162 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76073 @ 0.00056944 = 43.319 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38100 @ 0.00057002 = 21.7178 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60219 @ 0.00056935 = 34.2857 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14997 @ 0.00056506 = 8.4742 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6437 @ 0.00055919 = 3.5995 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68902 @ 0.0005579 = 38.4404 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43120 @ 0.00055889 = 24.0993 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00055768 = 3.123 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> that bet is going to surprise some people << "overall" covers it imo
mircea_popescu: what's so magical about it ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11900 @ 0.00055768 = 6.6364 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00055861 = 8.2674 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7953 @ 0.00056231 = 4.4721 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18050 @ 0.00056859 = 10.263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20719 @ 0.00056916 = 11.7924 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32850 @ 0.00056267 = 18.4837 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117647 @ 0.00055821 = 65.6717 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51450 @ 0.00055739 = 28.6777 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3610 @ 0.00055708 = 2.0111 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29050 @ 0.00055661 = 16.1695 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411879 << imho this will have to be a thing that is solved in one Final Solution shot, with turing-complete diff. we can NOT have 1,001 incompatible hacked gnudiff variants floating around in attempted use, it is chaos and death by ants.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 06:02:08; punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
asciilifeform: it is why i settled on straight gnudiff instead of trying 'clever' things
mircea_popescu: turing complete diff ?!
mircea_popescu: what's the diff if loop ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a continuation of a thread almost as old as 'v' - consider the tinyscheme-genesis patch, shiva, and the 'pedigree bridge'
asciilifeform: we have this atrocity because gnudiff is incapable of renaming a directory without MORONICALLY --- -ing EVERY FUCKING LINE of every file and +++ -ing it in again
asciilifeform: likewise file deletions
mircea_popescu: no argument there.,
asciilifeform: and more generally, unix 'patch' output was not really designed for human eyes
asciilifeform: nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really.
asciilifeform: just grew, like fungus.
asciilifeform: like most open sores crud.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if this was not clear, there is not presently any such thing as turing-complete diff/patch
asciilifeform: but it is one of the things that must come to exist, for sanity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really. << quite very much this.
mircea_popescu: i just don't see the gap between "cleanly covers corner cases" and "is turing complete" bridged.
asciilifeform: because 'cover corner cases' through 'enumerated' is braindamage.
mircea_popescu: you can't put a kernel in every single thing including the diff utility!
asciilifeform: no kernel, just a little scheme interpreter.
mircea_popescu: ah that's what you had in mind.
asciilifeform: could've guessed, aha ?
mircea_popescu: listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
mircea_popescu: i for instance judged that since you DON'T say the obvious, you specifically do not mean the obvious.
mircea_popescu: why'd i guess like when talking to 16yos on saturday night ?
asciilifeform: well it technically doesn't have to be scheme. draft ver of 'p' for instance is more forth-like.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i can see it.
asciilifeform: 'v' as we have it now, or at least as it appeared in my initial publication, was a very hasty and premature, wartime wunderwaffen thing
asciilifeform: it was really only half-gestated.
asciilifeform: the adult version as i envision it is much more like what is described above.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 188096 @ 0.00056155 = 105.6253 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: "The simplest way to generate a patch is to use ‘diff -Naur’ (see Tips for Patch Producers), but you might be able to reduce the size of the patch by renaming or removing some files before making the patch. If the older version of the package contains any files that the newer version does not, or if any files have been renamed between the two versions, make a list of rm and mv commands for the user to execute in th
mircea_popescu: e old version directory before applying the patch. Then run those commands yourself in the scratch directory."
mircea_popescu: speak of "not designed at all".
asciilifeform: aha recall this from early trb days ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49500 @ 0.00057 = 28.215 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: specifically 'chicken'
asciilifeform: what a fuckingmisery
asciilifeform: (chicken was what i nowadays call a 'pedigree bridge')
mircea_popescu: in truth the situation here is that we don't even know much of the stuff we need until we need it,
asciilifeform: which is why turingcompletefinalsolution.
mircea_popescu: nor do we know the banal names of banal things until after we've made them, because unlike posterity, we don't have the advantage OF FUCKING SANE ANTECESSORS.
mircea_popescu: we're born of snails and other oratanii
asciilifeform: nobody said terraforming planets would be easy...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform complete solutions are rarely best solutions tho. too heavy.
mircea_popescu: complete tank solution includes oil well.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a misconception, in this case. weigh my tinyscheme vs gnudiff!
asciilifeform: any metric you like - lines, complexity, hours to read
asciilifeform: complete solution made from ~orthogonal pieces~ is the magic sword which weighs as a feather.
mircea_popescu is not arguing against tinischeme
asciilifeform: it is also how you get 'no motherfucking updates ever, weld into concrete' while still getting exactly what is needed at every juncture.
asciilifeform wonders about the hypertrophied labia 90%+ of porn chix seem to have
mircea_popescu: that's hyper ?
asciilifeform: i suppose if mircea_popescu tells me that it is standard, i will believe.
mircea_popescu: you can't even see it ?
mircea_popescu: you mean the outer labia ?
asciilifeform: labia majora
mircea_popescu: that's mostly just fat/position tho.
mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40436 @ 0.00056906 = 23.0105 BTC [-]
polarbeard: so I've been playing a bit with shiva, I'm developing a simple hook mechanism, here's a preview https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/f5c5b02a2ce7c1a69c77
assbot: shiva_hooks.patch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/20NQyMF )
polarbeard: thoughts?
asciilifeform: polarbeard: why all the crud ?
asciilifeform: why reverse_in_place, mk_list, marshall, etc. in cpp ?
polarbeard: re: my patches, I'm trying to keep an up to date version of them on my github trb repo, wouldn't mind submitting to the ml if somebody asks
polarbeard: utility functions?
asciilifeform: these should be in scheme.
asciilifeform: everything that can be in scheme, MUST BE.
polarbeard: marshall should be in scheme?
asciilifeform: explain to me why it is even necessary.
polarbeard: CNode marshalling
polarbeard: because I'm marshalling per value type, not per hook type
asciilifeform: shiva.cpp as i originally wrote it, includes all of the trb headers. you can form scheme data structures handily without engaging in weird cppisms, just by iterating over, e.g., the node list, and forming scheme list while you do it.
polarbeard: that's what I do
assbot: shiva_hooks.patch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/20NR2ma )
polarbeard: I'm just encapsulating the functionality
asciilifeform: this is not an explanation.
polarbeard: that was a bug fix
asciilifeform: do you know what an explanation is ?
asciilifeform: WHAT BUG
asciilifeform: if you found an ACTUAL bug, that should be OWN PATCH.
polarbeard: this is not a vpatch, don't you see that?
asciilifeform: but it is also not an anything else.
asciilifeform: it is an example of everything i stand against.
polarbeard: so, what you're going to do with ts then?
asciilifeform: i did give example.
asciilifeform: for one thing, i won't be implementing list reversal in cpp !
asciilifeform: for another, bug fixes are their own patches, one per bug, that must contain nothing else.
polarbeard: I won't be adding unnecessary code to init.scm
asciilifeform: on the contrary, that is the ideal place for all new code pertaining to shiva.
asciilifeform: anything that is not going there, must answer why.
polarbeard: I'll split the bug fixes into their own vpatches when the time comes
asciilifeform: please do.
asciilifeform: these i will happily read, and sign.
polarbeard: atm I just wanted to dump what I'm working for, to get constructive feedback
asciilifeform: but doings in cpp what can be done inside tinyscheme, i will not.
asciilifeform: and i hope this is good feedback.
asciilifeform: see, the big thing here,
asciilifeform: is that by 'marshalling' the pointers, you are introducing trb's leakages into tinyscheme.
asciilifeform: (not to mention, bloating the code, but this is secondary)
asciilifeform: the point of shiva is PRECISELY the opposite
asciilifeform: 1) to have the cpp content of trb asymptotically go to ZERO with time
asciilifeform: 2) to THERMONUKE the idiot leaks.
polarbeard: never, I'm not translating trb to scheme
polarbeard: that's pointless and a waste of time
asciilifeform: nobody asked you to. but try also refrain from translating shiva to cpp, and spreading the leak metastases into it ?
polarbeard: so you embedded scheme for that reason?
asciilifeform: for the time being, with the more modest goal of abolishing the rpc module.
asciilifeform: but yes, in the long run it is intended as a prosthesis to take over where the brain damage of the original is incurable.
asciilifeform: (for n00bs or readers who have not been keeping up, 'shiva' is a highly experimental affair and not to be considered part of mainline trb!)
asciilifeform: and also in case polarbeard missed last night's thread,
asciilifeform: the magic of 'v' is that polarbeard does NOT have to agree with me!111
asciilifeform: he is free, and encouraged to, produce his own schismatic shiva, and sign it, and who knows, folks may come to prefer it to mine.
polarbeard: I agree with you on that
polarbeard: yes, I'm not surprised that you have a different point of view, and I'm even pleased I think
asciilifeform: from my naked eye reading, your thing will run until the first gc cycle.
asciilifeform: but i can't promise this, and can't be bothered to test, for reasons already described.
polarbeard: it actually stores the callbacks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10937 @ 0.000569 = 6.2232 BTC [-]
polarbeard: it works well, but still simple hooks because only a single callback may be registered per hook, not sure yet if there will be need for callback management
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411948 << have you looked into 'ed' diffs? but yes, they can't rename directory either.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 15:39:46; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411879 << imho this will have to be a thing that is solved in one Final Solution shot, with turing-complete diff. we can NOT have 1,001 incompatible hacked gnudiff variants floating around in attempted use, it is chaos and death by ants.
asciilifeform: jurov: i've looked into everything.
phf: dat patch, can take them to water, can't make them drink
asciilifeform: and i'm not very interested in 'can do all but X' widgets.
asciilifeform: i demand X, even values of X i don't yet know about.
asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
asciilifeform: and srsly, 'ed' ?! not meant for human reading any more than 'patch'.
asciilifeform: it is almost exemplary of the opposite of what we need here.
assbot: Merry Men ... ( http://bit.ly/20NTIjC )
jurov: asciilifeform: either it's 'can do all but X' or turing complete and thus with potentially unbounded runtime
asciilifeform: jurov: the magic trick is that there is no such thing as unbounded runtime on my box.
asciilifeform: there is exceed-bound-and-i-negrate
asciilifeform: we have finessed the halting problem !1111
jurov: also, you imply basically to expose all filesystem primitives to scheme, are they comprehensively and soundly defined?
jurov: i smell you'll eventually end with different presses in diff machines due to different filesystem semantics
jurov: who're you negrating now?
asciilifeform: any future folks who might think they are being clever with, e.g., nonterminating vtron program.
asciilifeform: jurov: what do you have with different filesystem semantics ? vax ?
asciilifeform: msdos ?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:07:32; mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:51:03; oglafbot: http://oglaf.com/merrymen/
jurov: while you slept, "modern" filesystem implementors deemed to fit to reorder operations to improve performance
asciilifeform: glorious!
asciilifeform: show me example ?
asciilifeform: 'i deleted this first before reading, faster!1111'
asciilifeform: srsly, we are there already ??
phf: i recall riastradh making an srfi proposal for a minimum subset of filesystem operations. could just implement it for tinyscheme
asciilifeform: phf: this was on my list of things to include, but i wanted to 'take it slow.'
asciilifeform: i did not include the tcp module for ts either
asciilifeform: though i have it
assbot: Possible bug: fsync() required after calling rename() · Issue #195 · google/leveldb · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1SZUZ8a )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00055661 = 9.1562 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: gotta love these 'optimizations'
asciilifeform: see also the gcc5 threads
jurov: lol looky now i'm the one to predict crapocalypse
asciilifeform: anyway this particular crapocalypse is avoidable, at least on our planet. BAN any heathen fs.
asciilifeform: instruct new users that they must operate on a sane fs.
phf: ext2
asciilifeform: and much as i loathe the idea, we will probably have to nail down our own linux distro.
jurov: which fs is sane? which mount options?
asciilifeform: jurov: i've been using reiserfs for ~decade.
asciilifeform: with 0 issues.
asciilifeform: the fact that reiser was jailed cemented it as permanently high-quality, no one wants to touch it, no 'progressors' progressate at it, no gnomes, no popularizers!111, etc.
asciilifeform: appears that it was bug-free as it was.
asciilifeform: gotta do a few things to the mains wiring, i (and zoolag) will be down for 30 min. to an hour.
asciilifeform: starting now.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00055655 = 3.5619 BTC [-] {2}
phf: added patch highlight to btcbase (got tired of trying to visually locate patches in the graph)
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b74
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 432.66, vol: 13065.58845587 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 432.623, vol: 11650.44569 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 436.5, vol: 54646.13980057 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 442.360947, vol: 67064.74420000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.1104, vol: 898.75107699 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 425.870649, vol: 71.32973054 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: average: 438.487963423
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 399479 | Current Difficulty: 1.6349165490895926E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 401183 | Next Difficulty In: 1704 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45150 @ 0.00055747 = 25.1698 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97155 @ 0.00056091 = 54.4952 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: so with that build script, i'm thinking just take out the curl & --verify of that stupid .sign file.
mod6: still will check the hash of the buildroot artifact.
mod6: gonna try that out locally here.
mod6: i guess, the other good news to that is you wont need to import that rando's guy's key into your keyring. still would need mine, alf & trinque's tho.
danielpbarron: oh mod6, with a fresh .bitcoin/ directory, your new thing seems to work fine
kakobrekla is back
kakobrekla: logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
pete_dushenski: don't believe everything you don't read
ben_vulpes: bitbet is broken kakobrekla
ben_vulpes: also assbot
ben_vulpes: and irc
jurov: and assbot's stuff is swollen
ben_vulpes: you keep irc working right?
kakobrekla: looks like i returned prematurely
ben_vulpes: wait come back
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu's javascript also doesn't work in every browser
ben_vulpes: mod6: perhaps hard code the hashes from korsgaard's signature and verify those?
phf: ben_vulpes: they are like md5 and sha1
mod6: ^
kakobrekla had a blast snowboarding the prime slopes of Dolomites region of Alps
mod6: i think this was actually discussed quite some time ago. i dont remember what the sentiment was exactly. but i think it was like "meh"
mod6: danielpbarron: ok thanks for the update
mod6: anyway, i guess i don't mind, i can add a part where we check the SHA1 & MD5 of the buildroot artifact and then continue to verify that .sign file.
phf: kakobrekla: i went camping in the Appalachian last weekend, -20c w/ winds, but it was awesome. i did just enough trash talking about russian blood to come down with a flu by thursday...
kakobrekla: meanwhile i was the only person in sauna yesterday evening
phf: as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
ben_vulpes: mod6: while there's no harm in checking the .sign, i don't know what it buys us
ben_vulpes: also that signature is disturbingly short
kakobrekla: really no saunas? whats the deal with that?
mod6: ben_vulpes: yeah, i dunno what the deal is with it, seems to not work exactly as expected.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00056778 = 5.763 BTC [+] {2}
phf: i hnfi. these people do "spas", but the sauna part is typically a joke
mod6: im gonna look again at what happens with 1.4.19 & that sign file.
phf: there's literally 4 places in the entire virgnia-connecticut stretch. maybe there's something up in Massachusetts. there's "east european" places ran by russians but with a lot of turks, etc. and then there's korean baths. but koreans frown on cold plunges, so they would usually have a tepid shower/pool
kakobrekla: im fine with shower only as long as you can set the temp to whatever you want
mod6: ok, so right, with 1.4.19 it has that WARNING at the end: http://dpaste.com/1BZA8NQ.txt
phf: yeah, korean places are not bad, but i know only of one that caters specifically to koreans (i.e. good heat), a lot of them are western oriented so massage and facials and such
phf: this place is great http://www.russianturkishbaths.com if you're ever in nyc
assbot: 010813rtbh ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ugn6PB )
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - http://bitbet.us/bet/1206/donald-trump-gets-republican-nomination/#b104
ben_vulpes: ha wow did the shitgnomes snip that mod6 ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64900 @ 0.0005694 = 36.9541 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: hrm?
mod6: ah, no idea.
assbot: Index of /downloads ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow8JKK )
mod6: in here there seem to be .sign files for the .tar.gz's, but they seem to have .gpg's for the tar.bz2's
mod6: im gonna take a look at that instead.
mod6: ooh... not for our version :(
mod6: guess that only started with the version /after/ our version 2015.05
mod6: lol ofc
mod6: oh nm, looks like those are only there for an RC version?
mod6: ok. ya
ben_vulpes: apparently
mod6: heh, these guys built this huge thing, but their sign files only have SHA1 & MD5, even the most recent 2016.02
mod6: wth
mod6: why even bother?
mod6: im starting to think that our SHA512 sum of this artifact is better than whatever they've got.
asciilifeform ears stand up!
ben_vulpes: mod6: yeah.
ben_vulpes imagines stan's face shooped onto the manul
asciilifeform: exactly this, aha.
asciilifeform: mod6: tell me which tarballs, i will dig out my originals and sum
assbot: Xapo Announces Plans to Upgrade to Bitcoin Classic ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow9SSp )
mod6: asciilifeform:this is the one that we're pulling
mod6: we expect this sha512:
mod6: c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
assbot: Joseph (@Joseph_Young_) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1owaasp )
asciilifeform: c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
asciilifeform: downloaded may 31 2015.
asciilifeform: i have, i think, also earlier buildroots
asciilifeform: if anyone wants.
asciilifeform: and their tars.
asciilifeform: and their cached crapolade.
mod6: ok great
mod6: yeah, here's what i've got in total: http://dpaste.com/35XDBSS.txt
mod6: the md5 & sha1 match the sign file
ben_vulpes: c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
mod6: what we really aught to do is write to that guy, get him to join the wot with a 4096 bit RSA key, and have him resign all of the bundles.
mod6: or at least, just the one we're using.
ben_vulpes: "the army we have"
mod6: want me to do it?
mod6: i can do that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41550 @ 0.00056304 = 23.3943 BTC [-] {2}
danielpbarron: which guy?
mod6: "Peter Korsgaard <jacmet@uclibc.org>"
ben_vulpes: it's just another thing in the way of wrapping this up, mod6 .
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform produced legacy hashes, they match the ones i have on disk and the ones you have right?
mod6: sure sure.
mod6: just thinking that hey, cant hurt anything to enlighten the guy that these hashes that he's signing, even up to this current month are obsolete.
asciilifeform: obsolete?!
asciilifeform: what even is this
mod6: SHA1 & MD5 are broken are they not?
asciilifeform: ah this yes
asciilifeform: do we have a confirmed collision here ?!
asciilifeform: i.e. different sha512 but same sha1/md5 ?
mod6: anyway, an open line of comms to these folks could help us -- especially going forward as we basically might need to "roll our own" so that it doesn't pull the deps via rsync.
mod6: asciilifeform: not as far as i've seen.
ben_vulpes: my sha1 and md5 match those in k's .sign
mod6: so as far as the build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is concerned. let's just check that hash and call it a day then.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 18:08:18; phf: or my favorite http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=asciilifeform
mod6: take a look, i've removed 3 lines: 1. in the comment section where it lists PK's key fingerprint at the top 2. the curl that pulls the sign file for buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign 3. the gpg command that verifies buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign
jurov: with my `cwd` problem yest, looks like i have ran into http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=304587 :(
assbot: why does ignoring sigCHLD corrupt return value from system()? ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgrlLc )
jurov: why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
mod6: c2ed1ccbb6769ada764b6d31e7a06873860c422109c4f8506cbda04402243c0534c9555f44f4c47071ebc3d6e3ece720b84de2940a2639381ef77652b34c3030
mod6: sha512 for build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is now ^^
mod6: jurov: do you mean `pwd' ?
jurov: yes pwd
jurov: basically, perl's fork() stopped working
mod6: what version of *nix & what version of perl
jurov: much joy
asciilifeform: jurov: whatddyamean 'stop working' ?!
asciilifeform: as in, cosmic ray ?
asciilifeform: or did you... update the box.
jurov: gentoo, perl 5.20.2
jurov: i updated glibc with the patch
jurov: for getname
asciilifeform: which patch ?
mod6: pwd is used iirc in v.pl, but only in the contex of it being a shell out - your environment should execute this and return the result to a scalar.
jurov: gethostbyname
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but ~which patch~
mod6: fork() shoudn't even be a consideration here... im confused.
phf: yeesh, when shiva fails to read init.scm it kills the whole bitcoind there and then
asciilifeform: phf: kills how ?
jurov: mod6 `pwd` call subprocess
jurov: hence, fork
phf: Shiva: new session, connected from 127.0.0.1:49563
phf: libc++abi.dylib: terminating with uncaught exception of type std::runtime_error: Shiva: failed to read init file!
phf: run: line 4: 67621 Abort trap: 6
mod6: perl doesn't care about what subprocesses a unix command may or may not use tho.
asciilifeform: phf: and this is the correct behaviour (IF SHIVA IS ENABLED), just needs to happen cleanly and humanely. does it ?
asciilifeform: ah this is CORRECT phf.
jurov: asciilifeform: how do i list patches that went into glibc-2.22-r2 ?
mod6: it'd be like doing the same thing in a bash script: PWD=`pwd`; echo $PWD;
phf: oh i agree, it should kill, just not without prejudice
phf: (i.e. no reason to corrupt db in the process)
asciilifeform: jurov: look in the portage cache, possibly. but you might have to diff with previous.
mod6: jurov: fwiw, i do a huge % of testing on a gentoo env with perl 5.20...
asciilifeform: phf: possibly it ought to die before the db is opened.
mod6: v5.20.2 for x86_64-linux
phf: well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
jurov: mod6 well, on another box i updates glibc to same version and perl works fine
jurov: *updated
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.0005655 = 22.2242 BTC [+]
mod6: weird
mod6: so again, this is because somehow V thinks that your pwd is in / ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41214 @ 0.00056467 = 23.2723 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: are you in / when executing V, by doing something like `/path/to/where/V/is/actually/located/v.pl`
mod6: because then your pwd would be /
mod6: and it'll look for .wot in /
assbot: Should enQ Get To Sell Spots In IRS Phone Queue? - Forbes ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgsJ0j )
jurov: mod6 noooo, pwd is external program. it failed to run it and returned nothing
jurov: and nothing + '/.wot' is...
mod6: ok, so pwd just fails as is.
mod6: what does `which pwd` tell you?
jurov: but don't mind, this is my private mess
jurov: even system('ls') fails
mod6: im simply curious here, never seen a pwd fail before.
mod6: oooh.
mod6: yeah, probably need to re-chroot or whatever it is with gentoo
mod6: asciilifeform or trinque have any thoughts for the man?
mod6: in other news jurov, im about to re-send the emails from yesterday
jurov: yay just recompiled perl without thread support, that did the trick
jurov: mod6 go on
mod6: wait, now it works?!?!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44345 @ 0.00057003 = 25.278 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: lol thread support did it huh?
jurov: yes, both my perl and turdatron
mod6: lemme see if i get this. perl with thread support broke your entire gentoo?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12655 @ 0.0005712 = 7.2285 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: i have nfi
jurov: not entire. just occassional problems with perl scripts like v.pl and autotools
mod6: but i thought you said that `ls` and `pwd` didn't work, like in your shell. that shouldn't have anything to do with perl.
mod6: my mind is blown. these are C binaries.
jurov: THEY DID WORK
jurov: but perl failed to execue them!
jurov: most perl scripts meddle with $SIG so they worked fine
mod6: but, say, normal use; you log in, you get a shell, you type `ls` and that would just work as expected right?
jurov: yes, everything worked. except perl -e "print system('ls') or die $!" returned just -1
mod6: ahhhh
mod6: ok.
mod6: then that makes a bit more sense.
mod6: maybe i should rewrite V in C
jurov: as i said, don't mind. it's my problem, i should not avoid dubious USE flags
mod6: well, someday maybe. still a dog with fleas.
jurov: *i should avoid
shinohai: btw mod6 I have reproduced it again just fine this morning Deb 8 and Ubuntu 14.04
mod6: ah, ok good deal shinohai. I updated the script so that it doens't even pull that .sign file. we'll just rely on the sha512 that I hvae, alf has, and ben has.
mod6: the link is above if anyone wants to give it a try.
shinohai: works for me
asciilifeform: phf: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412300 << as stated in the comments, i regard this as a serious loose end that must be tied before anyone can even contemplate using a shivatronic trb in the battlefield
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:08:29; phf: well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
mod6: shinohai: ok cool! im running mine right now
mod6: im making a `typescript' of the output as well. will post later when its complete.
shinohai: Me too did u get my pm with the address to node stats?
mod6: ah, ya, haven't looked yet tho.
mod6 looks
mod6: cool!
mod6: 9 connections, there soemthing i don't see everyday.
mod6: thanks for your help all. much appreciated.
shinohai: Sometimes gets as many as 12
mod6: wow. cool.
mod6: so once we're happy with this build-script, etc. we cna update that wiki, then we're back in sync. then I can take some time to get the makefiles stuff all organized.
mod6: no super rush there.
mod6: just only was in a hurry to get back into sync.
mod6: jurov: glad you got it resolved tho. let us know how it goes for you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 144950 @ 0.00057256 = 82.9926 BTC [+] {4}
jurov: it did compile the bitcoind, the problem was intermittent
mod6: ok now to resend those emails...
mod6: wish me luck lol
ben_vulpes: > 9 connections << coracle currently serving 13 strangers
ben_vulpes: and in other nyooz of the weird and strange saga of ben_vulpes endeavoring to set up a reference implementation on his heathen macintosh, buildroot fails to compile in linux virtual machines of all sorts of flavors
ben_vulpes gives up again
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: post moar detail ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fwiw it builds on 'centos', ubiquitous
phf: i have it running in a frowned upon state. cmake, llvm, clang
mod6: huh, yeah wouldn't have expected that
ben_vulpes: here's the last line, asciilifeform: x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault (program cc1)
mod6: and this is a gentoo VM? or ubuntu?
asciilifeform: phf: this is not useless, you can do the thing with the call graph even
ben_vulpes: phf: share your weird!
asciilifeform: phf: i have long wanted to get this working, so i can haz call graph
asciilifeform: which gcc refuses to disgorge
ben_vulpes: mod6: under gentoo the vm simply gives up on life
ben_vulpes: mod6: under ubuntu 14.04 running make in buildroot exits as above
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lemme guess: gcc 5
asciilifeform: KILL IT WITH FIRE
asciilifeform: and try again.
ben_vulpes: i didn't even check.
mod6: yeah, maybe alf has it
asciilifeform: 4.9 is already broken for some cases
ben_vulpes: gcc (Gentoo 4.6.3 p1.13, pie-0.5.2) 4.6.3
phf: ben_vulpes: i'm building it from inside Clion, so i'm not sure how easy it is to do cmake otherwise, i can share the diff though
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: hm, ought to work
ben_vulpes shrugs
asciilifeform: but wtf is 'pie'
mod6: jurov: lol, those emails envetually went through!!!?!
ben_vulpes: is this perversion even worth running down?
mod6: glad i checked or they would have been in there 2x.
ben_vulpes: i figured this for more of a "half bottle of wine in a girl's butt" report. entertainment, not science.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: any such perversion is ~always~ worth running to ground
asciilifeform: it is how we discovered the libnss thing
asciilifeform: and other evils
mod6: yaaa, i recall this
jurov: mod6: what mail provides do you use? trying to resend email for 3 days is standard
asciilifeform: pretty much everything we have, we have because someone ran the motherfucking gnomes to ground, each time.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes's turn.
mod6: jurov: evil mail
ben_vulpes: to be frank, i have no idea how this gentoo image was even built in the first place.
asciilifeform: i thought you built it ?
asciilifeform: or where, found on the street ?
ben_vulpes: no, 'twas some abortion pulled in via 'atlas', 'hashicorp'
asciilifeform: what even is that
mod6: ;;later tell pete_dushenski here's that change log you wanted: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-February/000213.html
assbot: [BTC-dev] mod6's V [in perl] version 99995 K ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ugvezz )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: ben_vulpes: you brought this upon yourself :D
ben_vulpes: 'easy development environments for derpvelopers on macintosh!'
ben_vulpes: phf: it's a hobby
asciilifeform: this is where i repeat mircea_popescu's admonition not to eat from dumpsters.
ben_vulpes: but the phood is phr33!
mod6: haha. also gives you the shits.
ben_vulpes: as demonstrated!
mod6: hahahahahaha
mod6: ugh. man. computers right?
jurov: butbutbut riced dumpsters!
asciilifeform: ^ apparently the whole thing. 1 page.
phf: man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
asciilifeform: phf: only the first time. it then turns into a steel beam you can use to build proper towers.
phf: once i bootstrap entire cl you mean? (define-macro (destructuring-bind ...
asciilifeform: incidentally, tried slib ?
phf: no
phf: will look
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47900 @ 0.00056373 = 27.0027 BTC [-] {2}
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Marco Rubio will be Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1205/marco-rubio-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/#b17
mircea_popescu: i shall now proceed to read the scrollback!
mircea_popescu: god help the man that takes a nap during republican times.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:27:59; asciilifeform: it is an example of everything i stand against.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: read his thing, mega-recommended.
asciilifeform: will see why.
mircea_popescu: o no. i'm not going to arbiter on code matters.
mircea_popescu: consensus process, bitches.
asciilifeform: don't need to. but see the thing in question, imho it is more or less the perfect example of what not to do.
mircea_popescu: so the guy is more familiar with cpp, naturally wants to isolate the weird he's taking in and take it in at controlled rate.
mircea_popescu: won't be accepted in trb by any means, but i dun see anything wrong wiht the process.
mircea_popescu: gotta figure it out somehow.
asciilifeform: well it pull in the direction precisely opposite to shiva.
asciilifeform: while being nominally a shiva patch.
asciilifeform: and i am all for the fella figuring things out, so long as he understands this, and the ~why~.
mircea_popescu: eh it doesn't pull anything. think about it : it is a modest, quiet hope, specifically that shiva/b-a/trb is actually heavy enough that it may pull him.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with treating your baby as a chunk of bedrock, you know.
ben_vulpes: what even was the point of the schemehooks?
mircea_popescu: tied some ropes to it and pulling on them, technically yes "this pulls the earth the wrong way". practically, tis alpinism.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: multifold point. most realistically, and in the short term, to abolish the json rpc crapolade.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: more generally, and later, as an internal debugger.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: much more generally, and much later - as potential replacement for entire chunks of the rotten flesh.
ben_vulpes: these are the original hooks? i misread
asciilifeform: there are no useful hooks yet.
asciilifeform: there is a demo, which was supplied with the original patch, that gets block count, and another knob that quits.
phf: asciilifeform: he's asking about SchemeHook from polarbeard's patch
asciilifeform: these, i think, are meant to be debug hooks
asciilifeform: but ask him, not me.
mircea_popescu: and in the world's most amusing porn news, "pregnant male doctor grabs boob" http://41.media.tumblr.com/cbf106747cae91ec1e7fa6bbad5fcbe9/tumblr_mlvjrxMRnl1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: l0l this one's for BingoBoingo
mircea_popescu: imo the "skelet" thing on the wall totally makes it.
mircea_popescu: modern if unintentional art.
jurov: at least he has he stethoscope on
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412083 << total fucking misnomers alf won't let go of with his lyf!
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:49:27; asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
mircea_popescu: what [i believe] you have in mind when ytou say "tc" in thsi context is pointedly not what most anyone reading it would expect it to mean.
asciilifeform: it means what everybody's kindergarten textbook had it mean!11
mircea_popescu: but a very... haskellite, even, theoretical notion.
asciilifeform: all i ask for is that vtron be able to specify arbitrary transformations, e.g., 'replace every letter a with b', rather than the +++/--- imbecility.
mircea_popescu: in that it's "turing complete in a purely theoretical sense and with none of the practical overhead a practical implementation would imply except in those cases where it is clearly and truly needed".
jurov: ^yes i was hinting at this too
asciilifeform: i suppose, like every other time before, i am doomed to demonstrate ~by example~...
mircea_popescu: in this sense cunt is turing complete, it can express all proteins.
mircea_popescu: good luck getting the fps to do so, however.
phf: i think the idea is to have a slightly more constrained awk. patchmachine takes string, manipulates it, returns new string
mircea_popescu: phf my mental model is essentially "awk without regexp"
asciilifeform: phf: specifically not awk and nothing like awk.
jurov: no the ide was patchmachine takes *filesystem* and ditto
asciilifeform: enough with the arbitrary nonorthogonal craplangs.
jurov: *idea
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what other than regexp do you hate in awk ? and being gnucpp, of course.\
asciilifeform: plenty.
asciilifeform: e.g., not homoiconic
phf: jurov: or that
asciilifeform: no lambda.
asciilifeform: no proper arrays even.
jurov: lol first me tormenting alf with ed, now they awk
mircea_popescu: ok, you know, say that! "i want a homoiconic thing with lambda", rather than "tc"
asciilifeform: hey vdiff is in awk.
mircea_popescu: which is what the first pass of this convo actually exactly was, iirc.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 15:48:49; mircea_popescu: listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
asciilifeform: anyway if i already knew what this needs to look like, i'd have already written it.
mircea_popescu: obviously.
asciilifeform: it needs to come out of the 'resistance of the medium' from the sort of thing we find ourselves doing with regularity.
mircea_popescu: which is why one'd expect a lot more alma matering of stuff like polarbeard's.
mircea_popescu: he's bound to run into a shitton of resistance of the medium in short order with that thing.
asciilifeform: if only it were so simple. do you notice what most programming types do when they run into a forest ?
asciilifeform: they build bulldozer, drive right through the oaks.
jurov: maybe we'll end up with vtron that actually allow to implement source code parser inside vpatches so that it computes checksums for every function
assbot: source access vs dynamism - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/217BSgV )
mircea_popescu: maybe we could name it php!
jurov: and the graph will be made from these checksums
jurov: so that descendants will list code snippets the actually depend on
jurov: instead of whole files
asciilifeform: jurov: forget about usefully parsing cpp.
asciilifeform: it is quite likely undecidable.
asciilifeform: (make of this what you will)
jurov: someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron
asciilifeform: i am quite certain that every possible thing will be tried.
phf: vpatch generating mandelbrots
asciilifeform: betcha somebody's very busy stuffing the winblowz crud back in, for instance.
asciilifeform: and somewhere, probably not too far from each of us,
asciilifeform: a pig is eating its own shit.
asciilifeform: what of it.
mircea_popescu: jurov> someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron <<< abhahaha win
jurov: actually, that's logical conclusion of what you want. instead of "teh stupid +++ --- stuff" make c++ parser, apply a transform and generate code
asciilifeform: jurov: do you know why not ?
asciilifeform: because it is HEAVY
asciilifeform: remember 'fits in head' ?
jurov: arbitrary text transformations like you dream of do not fit in head
asciilifeform: sure they do.
asciilifeform: tinyscheme fits in head.
asciilifeform: and it can do it.
asciilifeform: and it isn't even as slim as it could be.
jurov: then it couild also parse c++
jurov: it's arbitrary text transformation, too
asciilifeform: jurov: you are welcome to try parsing cpp, it would be a pretty useful proggy incidentally
asciilifeform: but the last time i asked for one, no one found any other than 'clang'.
asciilifeform: the language is gargantuan, just enough parser to ~compile~ is likely to take you a decade to write.
asciilifeform: and no one will read.
mircea_popescu: incredibly enough, afl's objections actually carry.
mircea_popescu: "arbitrary text transformations" but only between these two sets we carefully curated.
mircea_popescu: exactly like how human sciences work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now stop calling it "tc" and confusing people. concept needs a new name.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lacking a rigorously narrower complexity class, i am stuck with tc
asciilifeform: but if you have one, let's.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "i want a whaleoctopusdeerkitten" because you dunno how to say girlfriend
asciilifeform: nah more like 'i need a bipedal mammal'
mircea_popescu: backpedal more like it amirite
mircea_popescu: snort snort nudge nudge
ben_vulpes: i read 'tc' in the sense of 'can express arbitrary actions', in the vein of the old joke about programming in $shitlang: "hey, it's turing complete, we can make it do whatever we need"
ben_vulpes: brainfuck etc
mircea_popescu: if a name is not produced we'll just call it alf-tc
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you are thinking of 'turing tarpit'
asciilifeform: '... where everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy'
mircea_popescu: !up Jacmet
mircea_popescu: check it out, stolen plutoniumz.
asciilifeform: best h0stn4m3
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yup.
mircea_popescu: is it supposed to say "stolen plutonium dick" ? possibly only better thing.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: ;)
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:54:08; asciilifeform: we have finessed the halting problem !1111
mircea_popescu: Jacmet who're you and what are you doing here ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how's that
mircea_popescu: nono. i don't mean THAT "not even wrong"
mircea_popescu: i mean to convey my surprise and giddy excitement as to how it's not wrong.
asciilifeform: 'if all you have is Unix, certain problems are so staggeringly tall that it takes an extra special genius to see what the _real_ problem is because all the people who are trying to climb it make it look as if doing something else is stupid.' << naggum delivers.
mircea_popescu: but lacking a better complexity class...
asciilifeform: ahahaha
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: got a mail that you guys were doing something with Buildroot and if I could join?
mircea_popescu: we are : it's become the replacement harness for bitcoin.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00057355 = 25.1502 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: whoa hey
mircea_popescu: and buildroot with musl prevented us from bathing in the same humiliation EVERYONE else ended up in with the recent gethostbyaddr thing
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: ahh, interesting
ben_vulpes: Jacmet: are you K?
mircea_popescu: so listen, register your gpg key with assbot.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: and buildroot is working out of you or do you have some kind of problems?
Jacmet: s/of/for/
ben_vulpes: Jacmet: buildroot is working rather niftily.
mircea_popescu: so far it's working splendidly afaik.
mircea_popescu: !s buildroot
assbot: 251 results for 'buildroot' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buildroot
asciilifeform: been working splendidly for nearly a year.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: great
mircea_popescu: so get in teh wot, you have a lot of love here.
Jacmet: and yes, the current gpg key used for buildroot signing is getting quite old
mircea_popescu: that would be the one problem - the thing is a very valuable security asset, should be better protected.
mircea_popescu: make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that.
asciilifeform: Jacmet: as you probably know, buildroot is a coveted boobytrap target for 1,001 miscreants of various stripes.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: true. I'll get the new key cross signed by the other devs at our next dev days and start using it
asciilifeform: Jacmet: and some folks have downloaded tarballs that don't pass checksum.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: really? We never had reports on the ml or on irc
asciilifeform: consider this a report.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where was the line/dpaste ? dja recall ?
asciilifeform: digging for it now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5413 @ 0.00057355 = 3.1046 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: but most recently, today
Jacmet: asciilifeform: what was the difference between the bad/good tarball? Real rogue code or just interrupted download?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 18:56:36; kakobrekla: logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
asciilifeform: Jacmet: i unfortunately do not have it presently.
mircea_popescu: Jacmet what is it, #buildroot ?
Jacmet: asciilifeform: ok, I would be *VERY* interested in comparing them
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: yes
asciilifeform: as would i.
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated news, do you take bitcoin donations Jacmet ?
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: I guess we could, but it has never come up so far
asciilifeform: Jacmet: the background: i originally picked up buildroot to do an arm system build for an obscure box. and then discovered that it is also the only practical means of compiling with musl instead of glibc, for any system
asciilifeform: and here we are.
mircea_popescu: so get that sane key made, reg it and sign an address, i'll send you a coin.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: we're currently setting up a non profit organization around buildroot
mircea_popescu: that's a horrible idea if the wya such things work out in practice is any guide.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: ok
mircea_popescu: pick a strong leader in the form of a person, build your thing atop pgp sigs and forget the nonsense fiat.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: we already have that (me ;)
mircea_popescu: so don't make the mistake.
mircea_popescu: it fucked up everyone to date.
ben_vulpes: !s linus
assbot: 148 results for 'linus' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=linus
mircea_popescu: x.org just recently lost their only asset because of inept "non profit" shenanigans.
ben_vulpes: !s de raadt
assbot: 35 results for 'de raadt' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=de+raadt
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23928 @ 0.00056222 = 13.4528 BTC [-]
mod6: Jacmet: thanks for stopping in.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can't seem to find it in the logz
Jacmet: mod6: you're welcome
asciilifeform: Jacmet: i dare say that linux is only meaningfully alive today in the form of buildroot.
ben_vulpes: Jacmet: another thing worth pointing out are that sha1 and md5 are obsolete
Jacmet: ben_vulpes: yes, the key is from 2009 or so, where those were the defaults
ben_vulpes: whats the connection between key and file hash algos?
asciilifeform: Jacmet: if you open a nonprofit org, esp. in usa, you will be surrounding yourself with, and eventually giving control over various aspects of the project, to people who do not work in good faith.
asciilifeform: as happened with, famously, openbsd.
assbot: Logged on 16-02-2016 16:36:23; asciilifeform: now the other thing about openbsd is the incident with theo and that microshit flunkie
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that. << RSA too.
assbot: Logged on 02-12-2015 04:13:47; BingoBoingo: "On a personal "hate ramen noodles and tuna" level, I agree. But my good-for-project-good-for-the-world side says the OpenBSD Foundation is more effective at growing the contribution pie and in particular funding the hackathons where great work happens." - Theo De Raadt
asciilifeform: !s bob beck
assbot: 27 results for 'bob beck' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bob+beck
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37241 @ 0.00056222 = 20.9376 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: !up Jacmet
assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/24l9iYC )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: huh, indeed
phf: asciilifeform: ah, sorry i did a rename
phf: while early in the game, stable, experimental, uploads and deprecated
phf: actually i don't know how to call them..
mircea_popescu: Jacmet give a looksee at how buildroot is currently used
mircea_popescu: mod6 got a link to the current sh ?
mod6: yeah.
mod6 finds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00056651 = 13.143 BTC [+]
Jacmet: mod6: thanks. Any specific reason you guys are still on 2015.05?
asciilifeform: Jacmet: know of any specific reason why we oughta use a newer one ?
Jacmet: mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it?
mod6: np. well, we've been working for quite a while now to get all of this tooling setup the way we need it. we haven't had a reason to move forward with the version.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: newer and shinier ;)
asciilifeform: Jacmet: we permenently froze specific versions.
asciilifeform: of all dependencies.
asciilifeform: the 'why' of this is best illustrated by the heartbleed incident.
mircea_popescu: Jacmet tmsr doth not believe in upgrades. on the contrary, the versions here count towards 0.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: E.G. updated openssl, there's been some security fixes since 1.0.1g
mod6: <+Jacmet> mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it? << actually, one thing I think we're considering is doing a modification to buildroot so that we don't pull its deps over the wan via rsync. is there a way, currently, to just place all of its deps somewhere so it won't rsync?
asciilifeform: Jacmet: we don't use tls for anything, nor ever intend to.
Jacmet: mod6: yes, the download infrastructure in buildroot will only download if the tarball isn't already available in the dl dir, or you can point it to a local mirror
phf: Jacmet: bitcoind uses openssl for low level crypto operations, not actual client facing stuff
Jacmet: asciilifeform: ok
mod6: Jacmet: oh fantastic, glad i asked.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42350 @ 0.0005679 = 24.0506 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: i was sweating that we were going to have to 'roll our own'.
mod6: :]
mircea_popescu: moreover, it's marked for replacement. just, iffy thing to replace, the crypto lib.
mod6: Ok Gentlemen, I've gotta run for a few here. Jacmet: Thanks again for stopping in. When you're ready with your new key, stop on back and we'll help you get setup in the WoT. Cheers!
mod6: !up Jacmet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28528 @ 0.00056222 = 16.039 BTC [-]
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: so no love for da hooks? :) actually I'm not confortable at all using cpp...
mircea_popescu: what do you normally use ?
polarbeard: my daily work involves the rightfully hated javascript
mircea_popescu: pretty alien this whole landscape huh ?
polarbeard: but I usually prefer expressive non-bullshit languages
polarbeard: cpp is full of it
mircea_popescu: i would suspect as far as alf is concerned, javascript is cpp.
BingoBoingo: javascipt is worse, cpp on top of cpp
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412184 << speaking of which, ever tried tourianski's establishment ?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 19:16:07; phf: this place is great http://www.russianturkishbaths.com if you're ever in nyc
phf: no, what's that?
mircea_popescu: mmm danielpbarron's gf was iirc a canadian bath gal.
mircea_popescu: lemme see, should be in logs.
mircea_popescu: well not directly apparent. nevermind i guess
phf: oh, is that some other bathhouse in nyc?
mircea_popescu: might have been vancouver or something.
phf: aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, just a vague memory at this point.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152914 @ 0.00057355 = 87.7038 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15386 @ 0.00057356 = 8.8248 BTC [+]
phf: fwiw cascade range has a bunch of fantastic hot spring places. there's one next to Seattle, one next to portland, i mean of the the ones i've been too. but there's also numerous holes of course
assbot: 6502 Images ... ( http://bit.ly/1L47Tza )
phf: in fact i'm going to breitenbush two weeks from now, in the ben_vulpes area
mircea_popescu is not terribly fond of hot springs, for some reason they attract old folks.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:02:18; jurov: why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
phf: i used to do the whole 30 minute run through winter forest for a cold plunge in прорубь thing growing up, so i like hotsprings in winter. you get a pretty reasonable crowd around this time too, no idea how it is in summer
mircea_popescu: sounds like perhaps an actual buffer hole or something.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22114 @ 0.00057356 = 12.6837 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:19:18; jurov: even system('ls') fails
assbot: Jared Carrabis on Twitter: "Welp. Here it is. Via the @BostonGlobe, the picture that everyone's going to be talking about tomorrow. https://t.co/FbWPrm8DfH" ... ( http://bit.ly/1L49wg0 )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412433 << this is where i point and laugh at you and mumble sometrhing about alf's admonition not to eat out of schemes
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:52:04; phf: man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 437.7, vol: 11075.47017945 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 434.15, vol: 9701.36175 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 440.53, vol: 43990.17093531 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 448.2492, vol: 65369.96210000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.3158, vol: 870.71229551 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 436.63648, vol: 71.6372979 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 443.61158638
ben_vulpes: phf: popular place with the ru folk in the area
ben_vulpes: heck of a journey tho
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7900 @ 0.00057396 = 4.5343 BTC [+]
gernika: phf: Had a terrible vegetarian thanksgiving dinner at Breitenbush. I did see a naked woman there though, as a teenager.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00057396 = 22.5566 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what'd you say to her ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95836 @ 0.00057389 = 54.9993 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for the record this " the reason that source access is needed is the same as the cause of the problem: the inability to modify system behavior non-intrusively. if one could modify OPEN on any given system to acquire new behavior _without_ compiling a new OPEN or, even if you did, without re-linking the entire system (thus the need for dynamic linking and similar solutions, too), source code access would
mircea_popescu: be entirely immaterial." is rank idiocy.
mircea_popescu: he is correct in that foss is mostly a problem unto itself, making the previous situation worse rather than better.
asciilifeform: it is only possible to understand what naggum said if one is familiar with clos.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the "solution" he contemplates is of the level of "because inept us-style corporatism displays all the sechelae you'd expect if you got a bunch of farmers to say how cars should look, let's everyone run in traffic!"
mircea_popescu: i do not WISH to run an "open" which may acquire unspecified powers in the future if the caller rubs its belly just right.
mircea_popescu: the principal specification of any machine, not JUST computers, not just software stacks, not just lines of code, is to specify what it can never do.
asciilifeform: naggum also suffered from a kind of garden of eden innocence in re: that he never once showed any sign of understanding sabotage
asciilifeform: then again he did pay for src licenses
asciilifeform: and read.
mircea_popescu: what he's talking about it is fractal they shall be delivered thing
asciilifeform: how so?
mircea_popescu: how so. how the fuck are you EVER going to sign off on any code when it is not possible to say what function call will never do ?
asciilifeform: this 'never do' exists only if you burn into rom and then pour concrete around it.
mircea_popescu: currently our substance is drawn specifically from the fact that for the past 2-3 decades, these twerps approached the problem of functionality ("the software doesn't do enough") with nary a clue about the problem of feedback ("the software does too much")
asciilifeform: otherwise you might cat /dev/random > /dev/mem
asciilifeform: and get a different do...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sufficient and necessary concrete is readily available and of an abstract kind. i needn't any actual calcium carbonate to say various things about various bits of code.
asciilifeform: but you do.
mircea_popescu: i just mark it as broken.
mircea_popescu: as for instance with openssl above.
asciilifeform: the promises made by a c machine are false promises.
asciilifeform: and certainly not protocol.
mircea_popescu: this is a separate problem.
mircea_popescu: that the concept is poorly implemented is a separable and in fact separate problem from that the concept is broken
asciilifeform: these are not actually separate, causally
mircea_popescu: we had a few threads about this. i suppose it's still an open q.
asciilifeform: c machine is an exquisite study in what 'broken concept' actually means in practice.
asciilifeform: it is a braindamaged model of computation that breeds fractal braindamage throughout.
mircea_popescu: that may well be so. "with dirty hands no clean pages will be written".
asciilifeform: not even hands, just an arse sliding around, inscribing in fecal ink.
gernika: mircea_popescu: I don't recall saying anything. Probably because I was pretending: "no big deal." or something.
mircea_popescu: teenagers, tsk tsk.
mircea_popescu: "(4) you could communicate your desire for a system-wide improvement to someone who could put it in the official sources and you could add your changes conditionally." << see specifically how he manges the very pointed difference discussed in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2016#1411186
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 22:20:40; mircea_popescu: moe finds bitcoin in 2056, long after the republic prevailed, through his gf at the time. he steals her script, copies her .wot directory and now has a node!
mircea_popescu: i kinda wonder if naggum had lived to see b-a, whethger it'd have been passionate love or some sort of weird hate thing.
asciilifeform: naggum was an old-worlder. in the very specific sense of taleb et al
asciilifeform: for him, quality proggy is something created at a company, by experts, for money.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily wrong.
mircea_popescu: not really related to the discussion here, either.
mircea_popescu: he doesn't believe, eg, math, is "something created at mit"
mircea_popescu: even if he may or may not believe any particular building is the result of some people who did some calculations in private for money.
asciilifeform: well not as such. but he very much saw it as something ~not~ created by teenagers in mother's basement
asciilifeform: which is largely true.
mircea_popescu: largely yes.
mircea_popescu: except if everyone had plutonium induced braindamage from the fashion of eating plutonium pills
mircea_popescu: then it would be.
mircea_popescu: and lest you think such a thing is "impossible" : ustards ate off lead plates for many years, and even blamed tomatoes for hallucinated poisonousness.
asciilifeform: hell, romans.
mircea_popescu: all this because they really wanted to be as cool as the euros and didn't comprehend that faking it till you make it just gives you saturnism
mircea_popescu: nah, romans used it for plumbing.
mircea_popescu: and wrote down that you're not supposed to flint, michigan.
asciilifeform: iirc also goblets ?
asciilifeform: for the taste
mircea_popescu: iirc that wasn't ever more than say tit implants
asciilifeform can see it
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.94000000 BTC on 'Yes' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b76
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13562 @ 0.00056708 = 7.6907 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: phf: very neat, and exactly what i wanted!
phf: of course
phf: right now it's a bit jury rigged though. most intrusive is the addition of "keywords" to scheme.c, i.e. :foo evaluates to :foo
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that this was already there, selectably
phf: they have some package hack foo::bar (and not foo:bar), which mostly just breaks things
asciilifeform: thing needs readermacros
phf: yes.
asciilifeform: then you : could simply equal '
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37563 @ 0.00057387 = 21.5563 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: in other lulz, looked for discussion of the alphago bet, and found ...
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b77
mircea_popescu: i'm not gonna click on fb.
asciilifeform: 'I have one bet on at 2:3 against AlphaGo winning against Sedol in March - they get my $667 if AlphaGo wins, I get their $1000 if AlphaGo loses. Does anyone else like those odds? (They originally offered me $1000 to $1500 and I've decided that I regret not taking the full amount.) EDIT: Have reached current betting capacity on Sedol at $1500 to $2250, others may still be taking bets.' << the whole thing.
asciilifeform: dated feb 8.
mircea_popescu: mmmkay...
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 30.73 B (53%) on Yes, 27.63 B (47%) on No | closing in 2 weeks 1 day| weight: 61`697 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1QsN9gt )
mircea_popescu: ;;calc ( 30.73 + 27.63) * 443.61158638
gribble: 25889.1721811
mircea_popescu: amusingly bitbet is the largest pool on that topic on the whole internets, nobody seems to be aware of the situation.
asciilifeform: ;;google alphago bet
gribble: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match ...: <https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/>; Computer Go player 'AlphaGo' defeats pro in even game for first time ...: <https://gogameguru.com/alpha-go-fan-hui/>; In a Huge Breakthrough, Google's AI Beats a Top Player at the ...: <http://www.wired.com/2016/01/in-a-huge- (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: actually strike that, they are very aware.
mircea_popescu: even ended up in some slashdotty-like thing w/e it was
mircea_popescu: wired something
asciilifeform: they got this 'studiously ignore' thing going on, tho
mircea_popescu: hey, history is written by a dude Ira and his studious.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.28600000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b78
deedbot-: [Trilema] Eulora auction, February the 28th - http://trilema.com/2016/eulora-auction-february-the-28th/
phf: tinyscheme can't read strings longer then #define STRBUFFSIZE 256, hmm
mircea_popescu: how does this make sense ?
asciilifeform: the buffer has to be a certain length...
mircea_popescu: and this is my problem because c ?
trinque: <ben_vulpes> yo hey yo hey << looks like my bouncer took a crap while I was out for the weekend. sup!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82470 @ 0.00057402 = 47.3394 BTC [+] {3}
trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411650 << this is because that's not a sig for buildroot; it's an armored signed copy of buildroot's hash
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 02:30:15; assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 20:41:35; ben_vulpes: mod6: i am *still* getting this with build-bitcoin-v99995.sh: gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file 'buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!
mod6: trinque: wb
mod6: yah. i realized that lastnight. i think it also has to do with that i was using a derp version of gnupg too
trinque: mod6: good evening, and cool
mod6: anyway, not sure how i ever mixed that up.
mod6: anyway, i the latest, we just pulled that out for the time being.
danielpbarron: ;; later tell phf http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412717 << There's one on Fulton Street with great food
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 22:49:39; phf: aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: !up JuliaTourianski_
JuliaTourianski_: it's been a while
mircea_popescu: how goes ?
mircea_popescu: hey, were you running a russian bath thing or am i completely delusional ?
JuliaTourianski_: my headache just disappeared. magical!
JuliaTourianski_: I am still running one
mircea_popescu: where was it ?
JuliaTourianski_: will be running 2 in the forseeable future
JuliaTourianski_: Canada
mircea_popescu: yes but which side of the pancake.
JuliaTourianski_: E
mircea_popescu: so... how about you pay the fine establishment a visit phf ?
JuliaTourianski_: my mother got a call the other day with some guy asking her if we have glory holes. she had no idea what he meant.
JuliaTourianski_: phf?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 19:08:14; phf: as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
JuliaTourianski_: I like the fulton st bathhouse in nyc (amazing food), and this one http://www.russianturkishbaths.com/ nice atmosphere, oldschool family run
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
assbot: 010813rtbh ... ( http://bit.ly/1VymXp8 )
JuliaTourianski_: they gave me a discount cuz I'm a fellow owner
mircea_popescu: eh girls get discounts everywhere nudity's even vaguely involved.
JuliaTourianski_: not true. the unisex nude on in san fran gave me no discount
mircea_popescu: wrong kinda girl. shoulda been gay.
JuliaTourianski_: all girls are gay
JuliaTourianski_: if they so choose
mircea_popescu: alright, i give, i got nothing.
phf: of course, i'm always interested in new sauna places
JuliaTourianski_: ur euro born right
phf: yes, russian
JuliaTourianski_: Ive been to bathhouses all over
phf: i prefer contrast baths, hot bath, cold plunge, but yeah i've been to all kinds
JuliaTourianski_: in turkey, we were walking round hoping to go to a hamam the next day..when we saw steam rising from one of the buildings...we inquired to find the oldest haman of turkey! it was amazing. they scrubbed me down so hard. and they giggled at my shyness.
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
JuliaTourianski_: hammam*
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
phf: is that the one that's few blocks away from hagia sophia?
JuliaTourianski_: couldnt tell u
mircea_popescu: should be.
JuliaTourianski_: the general rule is...the more expensive a bathhouse is, the less authentic cuz only white tourists would pay that much to bathe...
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski_ did you get that gaming system made ?
JuliaTourianski_: yes. waiting for new monitor
JuliaTourianski_: but purse.io has not filled my order for days...
mircea_popescu: the girl/boy ratio in eulora is starting to skew the wrong way!
phf: i've noticed that, there's a place right between the sophia and blue mosque, that's all turist.
JuliaTourianski_: so why is eulora different than minecraft
mircea_popescu: minecraft just creates shit out of thin air neh ?
JuliaTourianski_: am i masculine cuz i was addicted to minecraft or feminine because i built a kitchen
mircea_popescu: you're gay for caring!
JuliaTourianski_: so ghay
danielpbarron: minecraft is way more focused on sandboxing
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron i never played it, but is it inflationary ?
JuliaTourianski_: do i have to give mp money to have fun in eulora
mircea_popescu: well then that's the difference.
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski_ nah atm noobs are making a pretty penny mining.
JuliaTourianski_: ill give it a shot once my monitor happens
danielpbarron: i used to play on a hardcore pvp server that had a decent economy (for minecraft) and they would have to periodically reset the whole world
mircea_popescu: weren't ppls bitching that purse.io went scam or was that a different thing
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that's just fucking ridoinculous.
JuliaTourianski_: not yet
phf: danielpbarron: wait, fullton street in nyc?
phf: interesting, i've not been to that one
JuliaTourianski_: great food
danielpbarron: i pulled off some pretty cool raids on that minecraft server; the guy who made it coded this thing you could build out of expensive parts that would like you track down where people were if they stood in one place too long (usually building their big stupid elaborate base)
mircea_popescu: butthurt ensues ?
danielpbarron: got to the point i built a tracker so big i could scan the whole map using binary substitution, and just collected and sold coordinates to other people
phf: the one on second ave has pretty good food, but it's really just one guy cooking it. this wallstreetspa place seems like they might have a cook
JuliaTourianski_: mircea_popescu what do u think of physicals
mircea_popescu: what are those ?
JuliaTourianski_: physical bitcoin
mircea_popescu: i never cared, myself. nubbins` is the resident expert really.
JuliaTourianski_: http://www.maxfield.me/blog/
assbot: Blog « Photography, Illustration & Creative Retouching – Portfolio of Maxfield Mellenbruch ... ( http://bit.ly/1SLP2LN )
mircea_popescu: lol i didn't know you were an artist.
mircea_popescu: !rated JuliaTourianski_
assbot: You rated user JuliaTourianski_ on 22-Sep-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Manages the beer for a family owned Russian bathouse with handmage sausages in Mississauga..
mircea_popescu: ha. voice yourself wouldja.
danielpbarron: the thing with "load your own key" physicals is it defeats at least some of the purpose
ben_vulpes: (hi trinque!)
danielpbarron: although i'm with nubbins` on the whole gpg chain of ownership method
danielpbarron: bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it
asciilifeform: to the extent 'physical coin' is a mechanism for storing actual coin, vs mere decoration, it is a Bad Idea.
mircea_popescu: seems to me rather obvious these are intended as decorative accessories.
mircea_popescu: i can see what the girls are trying to do. it's nb.
phf: seems like it would appeal to the same "commemorative" crowd as in fiat
mircea_popescu: phf no, it's the porsche for a new generation. tho i'm unsure whether anyone here understands or cares to think about what those things ~are~.
ben_vulpes: v. cool, phf.
ben_vulpes: (swank, that is)
ben_vulpes: (swanky, one might say)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwut
mircea_popescu: better questions!
asciilifeform: what they are
asciilifeform: 'veblen good' ?
mircea_popescu: not exactly\
mircea_popescu: let's go at it this way : ever seen how much bums value cell phones ?
asciilifeform: have seen the abstract fact of bum with phone, yes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30750 @ 0.00057405 = 17.652 BTC [+]
punkman: danielpbarron: bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it << the keys are always stored on physical tokens. unless you have a brainwallet (and the mind-reading machine has not been invented yet).
ben_vulpes: this is an implementation detail, punkman
danielpbarron: yeah but you don't usually pass around private keys like bank notes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the value of the phone for the bum is unrelated to its utility.
mircea_popescu: for one thing - who the fuck is he going to call ? for the other - how is he going to even get it to work ? for yet another, it matters not so much if the thing even works in the first place.
mircea_popescu: now - why is this ?
asciilifeform: i can see it.
danielpbarron: it sorta works with cacasius coins -- the ones that ~he~ loaded. But if each identical looking token is supposed to be loaded by a different entity, there can be no illusion of fungibility between them
mircea_popescu: note that i picked the bum specifically. for derps in "secure neighbourhoods", showing off to the neighbour is arguably a +ev move. who knows, maybe neighbour's daughter comes to do your house work in the nude or something. as faint as it may be - you're not going to get in fucking trouble for being an asshole. not so for bum. for bum, veblen goods are suicide goods.
mircea_popescu: so then what gives ?
asciilifeform: he puts on the play for himself?
asciilifeform: 'i'm still someone'
mircea_popescu: look at "european cars", they've been selling the same damned thing for 30 years now. you ever watch one of their ads ?
mircea_popescu: there's a naked woman in a fur and a shot of some shiny cogs working together.
mircea_popescu: that's all it's been throughout.
mircea_popescu: and they're not pitching to people who could buy the damned cars, but to twentysomething derps in college.
mircea_popescu: fact of the matter is, when it comes to technology we're all bums. nobody can make a fucking car he'd want to drive.
asciilifeform: so that they buy as soon as they are credit-enabled?
mircea_popescu: and this is EXACTLY what elegance is. no fucking farmer in the midwest, building an empire and about to kick the fuherer's teeth in can POSSIBLY be elegant.
mircea_popescu: elegance is specifically the scent of early putrefaction.
mircea_popescu: hence new york was elegant in 1920, by the time it was just starting to no longer matter,
mircea_popescu: not in 1820 when it was kicking pensylvania's teeth in.
mircea_popescu: look at the item in question, it's faintly cog-like, and mysteriously made of parts bla bla. same exact play, for same exact reason.
mircea_popescu: all they need is some sluts in furs smoking out of hookas or some shit.
mircea_popescu: !up JuliaTourianski_
mircea_popescu: didja pm it !up ?
JuliaTourianski_: for elegance to exist it needs elegant people
mircea_popescu: what's that, women that never queef and dudes that don't go bald ?
phf: andy warhol's gay entourage
JuliaTourianski_: regarding the kialaras... they're pretty pieces of art (which by wilde's definition is valuable in it of itself) plus they have the btc behind them, so they're an investment.
mircea_popescu: see ? she gets it.
mircea_popescu: they're valuable in themselves plus they make a good investment. furs ftw.
mircea_popescu: anyone seen Les Veinards btw ?
JuliaTourianski_: wats that
mircea_popescu: splendid bit in there, right in the final sketch, de funes is this breton dude. "ils m'ont liquide!"
JuliaTourianski_: im writing a post called "It's not that there's no jobs, it's that your standards are too high. "
punkman: I like the Kialara coins, certainly different than all the other crap coins. but why would I buy one signed by Ricky Allman or JuliaTourianski? did you do the art on the back side?
JuliaTourianski_: yes
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