Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-07-18 | 2015-07-20 → ↓
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mod6: `man 1 patch`: -E When patch removes a file, it also attempts to remove any empty ancestor directories. << i can't get it to leave the empty dirs.
mod6: perhaps we just don't use my submitted patch and then I just prune the baracles by hand in the release source base.
mod6: leaving the necessary directories.
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.00055783 = 11.6308 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps?
ben_vulpes: btw is it me or was linus retarded for making git work in such a way that one has to stick a file in a dir to get git to keep it around?
ben_vulpes: AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails?
ben_vulpes: the mind boggles
ben_vulpes back to drinking with crazyfam
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punkman: mod6: punkman: I get this error when I try to compile with your patch http://dpaste.com/11G00N1.txt << strange
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00055783 = 10.4872 BTC [+]
punkman: oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7090 @ 0.00055471 = 3.9329 BTC [-]
jurov: ;;isup qntra.net
gribble: qntra.net is down
jurov: down and proud
mircea_popescu: jurov myeah atm being ddos'd on like 4 ips
mircea_popescu: i guess ima just buy a c block
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13340 @ 0.00055783 = 7.4415 BTC [+]
jurov: how would that help?
jurov: looks like you'll end up with content distribution network and that does not need one c block
mircea_popescu: im all for it, let the guy waste his botnet time on qntra, 255 ips at a time, 65536 ips at a time, whatever.
mircea_popescu: not like he's doing any damage to anything but himself.
jurov: you think it's ionly some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?
jurov: otherwise your whole C or even D block may get null routed instead...
mircea_popescu: notrly how this works.
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mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206064 << sounds yummy. i'll be attempting deployment and report.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release.
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14253 @ 0.00055314 = 7.8839 BTC [-]
assbot: Philip Greenspun's Weblog » What other currencies besides Bitcoin have experienced inverse debasement? (“basement”?) ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGSg3h )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205907 << yeah obviously you gotta freeze and release now and again.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:33:59; mod6: Anyway, most of the submissions so far have been pretty top notch. We want to encourage people in the WoT to submit patches. If something is submitted but doesn't make it into a release right away, that certainly doesn't mean it won't be pulled in to a later milestone.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 19:07:35; ben_vulpes: <punkman> I'd really like the debug.log to be parseable, that's the main motivation here << this is an excellent goal. a+ if you crap out an EBNF to go along with it, instead of some "protocol is in the code" parser script.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 21:38:39; felipelalli: keep both online, but when the free version is being attacked at least you have an alternative
mircea_popescu: i guess we're all just holding our breaths for the gossipd
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206063 << not like there's an obligation on the part of anyone to sign. if people are happy with what signatures they see, they can use. if not, not.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; ascii_modem: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205870 << wai wut - ?? - no one signed that he has read, tested - and straight to release?
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 00:41:04; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell solrodar hey man i need a hand compiling boost in order to test your callgraph visualizer
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 01:18:02; ben_vulpes: anyways, the drivetrain is incorrect. yes, electrical drive is fantastic for the low-end torque, but regen brakes of engineering necessity must clamp down insanely hard in order to maximize current out of the machines.
mircea_popescu: there are TONS of such problems with the thing. not that they're necessarily unresolvable - maybe they'll get fixed. they won't get fixed however for a pet project that goes about as far as the "be an astronaut" curios.
punkman: fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
mircea_popescu: if you can make a strong statement about some/all, signing's not a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206146 << i've been mulling over this the whole fucking day, incidentally. if i were ceo of any automaker and the new model made the old models go up in price, i would on the spot fire the entire design team.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 01:31:55; pete_dushenski: easily 2-2.5x 2010 prices. easily.
punkman: I'm
mircea_popescu: with actual kicks to the backside, no joking around. "you are done in this industry and your mothers should be ashamed of fucking drunks"
mircea_popescu: and this because if i were the board of an automaker where this happened and the ceo failed to so fire the design team, i'd so fire the ceo.
mircea_popescu: this is failure of an unprecedented scale, i'm not even sure it can be put into words what exactly it means.
mircea_popescu: it is in fact the superlative failure.
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scoopbot_revived: The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" http://trilema.com/2015/the-lulz-of-today-or-you-think-its-only-some-kids-that-will-exhaust-their-resources-soon/
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assbot: XOtika.TV: Bitcoin adult live streaming community. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KeN1nq )
danielpbarron: Naphex, is it possible to initiate private shows, or at the very least send private messages to the model?
Naphex: danielpbarron: nope
Naphex: why?
danielpbarron: i mean, why not? why does the troll box have to be visible to other wanker?
danielpbarron: isn't the point to tell the girl what you'd like to see
danielpbarron: having to do this on display infront of other guys isn't the most condusive to arousal i would imagine
danielpbarron: or maybe i totally misunderstand the demographic you're looking to attract
Naphex: ah :D didn't know you were that emberrased :)
Naphex: perhaps try a new nickname :p
Naphex: but seriously, at some point i will be adding a private button with pay per minute
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28650 @ 0.00057531 = 16.4826 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.00057569 = 11.888 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps? << it seems that way kinda. i guess people tend to use .gitkeep (an unsupported work around instead. but w/e)
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails? << yeah, it's not really linus or git, it's patch that does the dirty work. and yeah, the makefile depends on being able to write to some of the dirs.
mod6: <+punkman> oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry! << np, just resubmit and i'll give it another try. or even just pass me a version before submit if you like just to be sure it works. np.
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mod6: oh and there is a new Gentoo guide for nomultilib/glibc -- I created it yesterday & trinque verified as well:
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 11:37:45; punkman: fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
mod6: So this can be used as a test platform for all the patches, etc. . If you're really ambitious you can install gentoo as above ^^ then use this to pull down the v0.5.3.1 basecode and apply these patches: http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt
mod6: But you'll still have to create your own distfiles + ourlibs then drop in ssl/bdb/boost into distfiles. then pull down stator and build.
mod6: so yeah this is annoying with `patch`. if you do `patch -p1 --posix < rm_gitignore.patch` it doesn't remove the dirs /or/ the files, just leaves 'em truncated. which is dumb too.
mod6: i searched lastnight for a looong time to find anything to tell patch to no prune empty directories, but it doesnt seem like an available option.
mod6: s/no/not/
asciilifeform: mod6: iirc patch cannot remove dirs. which is why i wrote 'chicken' the way i did
asciilifeform: this is all in the logz.
mod6: it does remove dirs.
mod6: check out `man 1 patch` -E
asciilifeform: ah i recall
asciilifeform: it removes files by shitting out the whole file as a minus sign delta
asciilifeform: which pissed me off
asciilifeform: (what kind of imbecile thought that this was appropriate ?!)
mod6: yeah, it basically zero's out the file, and then it seems to remove the file with -N (diff) and if there is nothing left in the directory, it zaps that as well.
mod6: lol, yeah it's obnoxious. and i think the only way to solve this is to remove them by hand.
mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
asciilifeform: wai wat
asciilifeform: i'm still not entirely grasping how all of this came about
mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. seems easy enough, so crated a quick patch, attempted to apply, worked fine -- I didn't notice that it blew away the directories as well though. : obj/test obj/nogui obj-test
asciilifeform: possibly ought to be a shell script rather than patch.
assbot: [BTC-dev] Remove .gitignore files from Reference Implementationcodebase ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKIBX1 )
asciilifeform: unix patch util is diagnosably retarded, we knew this
mod6: yah, and when applied `patch` ends up removing the dirs along with the .gitignore files because it renderes those directories empty.
mod6: lol, it's trying to be helpful.
mod6: "why would you want an empty directory!"
mod6: smh
mod6: so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories.
mod6: unless our solution is to add .keep files in there, which i think kinda sucks.
mod6: if i want an empty dir, i should be able to have an empty dir
mod6: anyway i'll work on it. just don't use the rm_gitignore patch.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00057588 = 7.3137 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: i might just be dumb. build a test env with http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt and see if anyone can get the rm_gitignore.patch file to apply without removing the obj/test obj/nogui or obj-test dirrs
mod6: well, thats weird. it seems to remove obj/test and obj/nogui, but NOT obj-test which is left empty?!!?
mod6: now im really confused.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36050 @ 0.00055166 = 19.8873 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: the only thing in the obj-test directory before applying that patch is '.gitignore' so why wouldn't it be removed like obj/test and obj/nogui?
mod6: maybe the best option is to add a one line shell script that just does: `find . -name ".gitignore" -exec rm '{}' \;`
mod6: that'll leave the dirs in place
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107450 @ 0.00053397 = 57.3751 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: Silicon Valley struggles to hack its diversity problem - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQgdOH )
decimation: "Yahoo disclosed last week that African Americans made up just 2 percent of its workers, while Hispanics stood at 4 percent. Those revelations came days after Facebook reported that in 2014 it had employed just 81 blacks among its 5,500 U.S. workers."
decimation: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html < " Google, of course, claims the fact that it would rather hire out of East Bosnia than East Palo Alto is a competitive trade secret. Well, I suppose. Curiously enough, Apple, Yahoo, and Oracle share the same secret. Ha, ha! Is it a secret to you? It's not a secret to me!"
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: Technology, communism and the Brown Scare ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQghhw )
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu whitehouse .org ?! iirc that was a parody site...
gribble: The operation succeeded.
decimation: I thought it was a porn site
assbot: The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKLzL8 )
decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
asciilifeform: decimation: i think so
assbot: Global DNS Propagation Checker - What's My DNS? ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQh0iR )
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
assbot: Top Athletes Go Nude, Showcase Amazingly Sculpted Bodies in ESPN Mag ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQh6aa )
asciilifeform: so why did mircea_popescu clobber a random derp site ?
asciilifeform: (iirc one of us suggested this experiment nearly a year ago, but noted that the proper whitehouse oughta be used)
decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
decimation: but I too am curious how disabling qntra's dns while clobbering random bystanders helps anybody
decimation: I suppose it kinda has to use dns to defeat trival remappings
decimation: at any rate, it does seem that the 'content distribution network' approach is the only one that seems to hold up against this kinda crap
decimation: granted, it's expensive to build and maintain, but it was kinda baked into the way the internet works
decimation: why not take the 'pay per page' subscription model one step further? 'pay to route' pakets, in btc?
asciilifeform: have fun with tx fees and hour-long confirmations for packet
decimation: heh, well obviously you would prepay
jurov: and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly?
asciilifeform: jurov: that part's easy.
decimation: you could put a packet counter pretty easily
decimation: automation could talk & update router regularly
decimation: no sigs, just ips
asciilifeform: a stateful solution is ipso facto a wrong solution.
jurov: everyone does spoofed ips
decimation: now, the scammer could discover a 'credited ip' and run down its account
asciilifeform: ^ and for other reasons.
asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
asciilifeform: or no route.
decimation: asciilifeform: well, I agree with that too
asciilifeform: at all levels, too.
decimation: but remember how it was rejected as being 'too friendly to third parties'
asciilifeform: this is also why every packet is rsa-encrypted to the destination's pubkey.
jurov: asciilifeform: how would that cheap 1e6/sec sig verificating router look?
asciilifeform: jurov: asic
decimation: jurov: yeah it would need to be done in custom logic
decimation: jurov: to be fair, cisco does the same thing (custom logic in router)
jurov: of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto
asciilifeform: the heroic bandwidths are, imho, unnecessary - the only thing it needs to do extremely quickly is to reject enemy garbage
decimation: for webpages anyway
decimation: maybe crypto-netflix is later
decimation: asciilifeform: how could you route if the destination were encrypted?
decimation: some kind of onion-routing?
asciilifeform: decimation: wot routing
asciilifeform: 'mother taught me never to speak with strangers' (tm) (r)
jurov: but if you check sigs at destination, then you haven't solved ddos at all
jurov: they need to be checked at places where do 1e6 pkt/sec flow
asciilifeform: jurov: aha. and you check them at line speed.
asciilifeform: with asic
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39000 @ 0.0005763 = 22.4757 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: any asic that comes even close to that? ecdsa/2048RSA?
asciilifeform: jurov: recall what asic means
asciilifeform: what it means is, designed for the occasion
decimation: sure, you could do line-speed rsa
asciilifeform: none of this is an open problem in any sense
decimation: probably could go to opencores right now and find a crypto block
asciilifeform: decimation: wouldn't go that far
asciilifeform: probably needs to be designed the old-fashioned way, to get real performance
asciilifeform: rather than hll synthesis
jurov: we can do asics that easily do 1e6*1e5 operations per second ?
jurov: (ecdsa is on order of 1e5)
decimation: jurov: 1 gigabit ~= 8333 packets/sec
asciilifeform: jurov: checking sigs parallelizes linearly
asciilifeform: the only thing you need the fast logic for is to mux/demux to the processing pipes
decimation: it might add a tiny bit of latency
jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
phf: build FIDO on top of gossipd ;)
asciilifeform: jurov: understand that the solution has to be deployed as a network, rather than in one point
asciilifeform: a network that a wotless wolf cannot even connect to in any meaningful sense.
jurov: but i understood it will be built on ip anyway
asciilifeform: wolf gets to stay in the forest, outside city walls
asciilifeform: can build on anything you like
decimation: which is roughly the position we are all in, failing to have $$ mil networks
decimation: jurov: why does qntra need more than 1 gigabit
jurov: what if there are million wolves and you must check their sigs?
jurov: decimation: it does not need gigabit!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10400 @ 0.00057699 = 6.0007 BTC [+]
jurov: but if you get gigawolves via ip arriginv, how are you getting sheep through?
asciilifeform: jurov: the point is that the million wolves are, in your example, all lining up at one gate
decimation: they have valid sigs?
asciilifeform: why is there only one gate ?
jurov: how does the gate look? like tor enter node?
asciilifeform: approximately
jurov: ah that i wanted to know
asciilifeform: and since we aren't a usg wankatron like tor, there is no reason for all of the 'gates' to be publicly advertised
asciilifeform: or even to remain the same from day to day
decimation: I think ascii is proposing something like tor except everyone knows everyone else, and routes accordingly
jurov: !s cjdns
assbot: 10 results for 'cjdns' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cjdns
asciilifeform: decimation: this is rather like saying 'proposed something like a chair, except that it flies through space and takes pictures'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18100 @ 0.00057699 = 10.4435 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: gossip net is rather more like anarchist 'cells' than anything else.
phf: it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes
decimation: back in the day, ham radio folks used to run something much like fidonet except completely over shortwave/vhf radio
asciilifeform: but the aspect i'd like to emphasize - one which mircea_popescu thought to be an optional frill and did not include in his spec - is the single-packet authentication.
asciilifeform: it is the one and only pill against ddos
decimation: as I recall his objection is that he didn't want third parties to be able to easily glean identites from packets
asciilifeform: generally speaking, your machine - to an attacker lacking the keys - must look exactly like an empty wall socket to the enemy.
phf: and you want it to be fully stateless?
asciilifeform: decimation: attacker cannot glean identity from an rsa-encrypted packet sent to a known public key
asciilifeform: payload (incl. the signature) is in the crypted blob
decimation: yeah I didn't recall the encrypted part being mentioned before
decimation: clear signatures would
asciilifeform: ~i~ mentioned it
decimation: gonna have to re-read
asciilifeform: again, it wasn't in mircea_popescu's spec
decimation: yeah I was more interested in the argument that generated it
asciilifeform: iirc he still thinks that ip as it exists now can be entirely abstracted over, and that the spec ought not mention details like packets
decimation: my earlier proposal of 'charging per packet routed' is a jungle way of implementing this
decimation: I see ip has here to stay forever, because of the $$ bil it would cost to do otherwise
decimation: maybe even $$ tril
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well the whole thing's a parody.
mircea_popescu: anyway, wanted to see i can first take down random sites with it
mircea_popescu: not like you're going to see it on wh.gov
decimation: you did force the attacker to lay down one card
mircea_popescu: 23.45.18.92 pings just fine. honestly it'd be sad if it didn't.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206352 << obviously, inasmuch as they're the result of lengthy consideration / involved discussion here, their unexpected downsides shouldn't be expected to be provided by us.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:26:59; asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
mircea_popescu: apparently either there's none or everyone else in bitcoin is just watching tv.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00057753 = 19.7515 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: there is a basic principle which applies equally to the 'orphanage' discussions and to today's ddos thread: NEVER give derps something valuable just for showing up
asciilifeform: in NO possible universe does this lead to anything but grief
asciilifeform: there is NO circumventing this, because ultimately it is a thermodynamic law
decimation: asciilifeform: in this way you can see how the internet 'as is' is doomed to some degree
asciilifeform: decimation: it is as doomed as the cartoon wolf who walks off the cliff and does not necessarily notice - at first
decimation: no, I would argue that the benefits accrue to specific corporations
mircea_popescu: obviously.
decimation: for instance, spam drives everyone to big isp mail hosts, gmail, etc - not only for spam protection but also for 'web of trust'
asciilifeform: decimation: re: the orphanages, if you have them at all, what you're doing is 'i'll store this piece of shit on your say-so, and MAYBE it will be shown to be a valid block (rx) later'
asciilifeform: hence 'jam tomorrow'
decimation: 'web of trust' in this case being the poorly done implmentations of smtp routing
mircea_popescu: decimation riddle me this : you don't like reading dumb "newspapers", but how many good ones were sunk by exactly this before you heard of them ?
mircea_popescu: the process ensures everyone has to swim in the same pisspool.
decimation: yeah it's a fair point
decimation: the pre-digital version was expecting some kind of handout/human attenion being paid to a stranger
decimation: similarly, the 'ddos attackers' end up driving everyone to akamai, etc
decimation: virii/malware benefit mcaffee and usg's 'cyber' budget
decimation: asciilifeform: I predict the bitcoin version will be resolved with some kind of central transaction clearhouse monopoly, sadly
asciilifeform: decimation: in what sense would that look like 'bitcoin' at all ?
decimation: what other option is there?
decimation: spv mining?
decimation: satoshi was being dumb when he failed to program payments for caching
asciilifeform: i still utterly fail to see what is so wrong with classic bitcoin
decimation: umm, didn't you just complain about the orphan problem?
asciilifeform: i shot that problem in the head
asciilifeform: while remaining compatible
asciilifeform: hence it was not part of 'bitcoin' at all.
decimation: hehe good point
asciilifeform: it was just a piece of shit stuck to the skin, not a tumour
decimation: but someone still needs to hold transactions until they 'clear'
asciilifeform: think of it this way - the mempool isn't, by the same token, really 'part of bitcoin' either
asciilifeform: there are 1,001 possible ways to queue up transactions for miners to choose from
decimation: mempool in this case being the gigantic c++ 'map' that holds transactions in memory?
phf: re: orphanage, i'm still investigating, but there's no reason why we can't have a better initial sync block handoff strategy, that doesn't get stock, because some parent in an orphanage subchain failed to get sent out
asciilifeform: the current one mostly works. if sufficiently abused, and folks with actual stake in the matter get sufficiently annoyed, another one will be used
phf: *get stuck
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu suggested at least one alternate scheme, iirc
asciilifeform: phf: in case you missed it, my nodes are not stuck
decimation: I suppose my point (central clearinghouse) is that I foresee some entity like akamai that will 'magic away' this problem for miners, who will all pay for the service
asciilifeform: if the miners want to march into a usg mousetrap, no problem
asciilifeform: it will snap shut, and a new set will be born
decimation: yes, but you would agree that building such a network with an eye toward minimizingn latency everywhere would be expensive
decimation: because miners are gonna want max fees with min latency
jurov: it's not hard for every node to advertise addy for caching fees
jurov: only needs wallet that creates N copies of the tx with N addresses
jurov: let them compete
decimation: jurov, what is 'N'? the length of the cache?
jurov: no, N nodes
decimation: ah I see
phf: asciilifeform: it's not a permanent stuck, but a slowdown. i haven't sent out that orphanage graph that i posted some time ago, because i'm still kicking shit around, but the beahior that you can see from it, is that blocks are sent out as multiple subchains. when a subchain arrives that's missing a parent subchain, it gets rejected many times over and over, until parent subchain is filled in. i think the behavior can be improved by
phf: mucking around with the code that desides what blocks to send to a requesting client
decimation: yeah that's kinda what I'm hinting at I guess
decimation: jurov: I was envision the miners paying for your caches, on the assumption that most folks won't want to pay a third party to clearn bitcoin
asciilifeform: phf: it would be absolutely trivial to send blocks in a sane way to compatible clients. 'embrace & extend' protocol
jurov: most people are not interesting here
decimation: yeah, it's a fair point. that point has been made
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gentoo.jpg << for serious gentoo aficionados only !
decimation: even in the fiat world, actual people transmitting actual money would expect to pay
phf: asciilifeform: well, i wouldn't say "trivial", but yes
decimation: asciilifeform: was that taken at a zoo?
asciilifeform: decimation: aha, where else. central park.
decimation: heh. I admit part of me wants to journey to the falkland islands to see the gentoos
phf: asciilifeform: of course the easiest option is to add a new network command, that does a sane request for initial block chain parts, but i think it can still be done within the framework of current sync model
asciilifeform: i see nothing wrong with a 'get block N' command.
decimation: phf you are thinking 'give me block #N'?
decimation: asciilifeform: what if you have an ongoing fork?
asciilifeform: then same situation as now
decimation: I suppose the serving node still has some idea of what block N is
phf: where N is the hash or the height?
asciilifeform: height!
phf: right
decimation: actually such a command would be very useful for a 'fork detector'
phf: well, that's certainly a way to cut gordian knot
ag3nt_zer0: good day all...
ag3nt_zer0: I am trying to enter my public key at nosuchlabs.com but am getting an internal server error
asciilifeform: ag3nt_zer0: it is mighty busy
asciilifeform: please do try again
phf: at which point do you stop doing get block # and switch back to current sync process? or never?
asciilifeform: why ever
ag3nt_zer0: am i supposed to enter the entire text file, including ---Begin Public Key Block----, or just the string of shit? sorry don't know the technical term...
asciilifeform: whole thing
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ln2.jpg << liquid n2 on the steets of manhattan. every coupla blocks
asciilifeform: the hose disappears into a telco pit
asciilifeform: (why? almost certainly for the same reason as http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-05-2014#656219 where i live)
assbot: Logged on 02-05-2014 21:23:21; asciilifeform: instead, there are tanks of co2 chained to poles here and there
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21630 @ 0.00057881 = 12.5197 BTC [+]
punkman: mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release
asciilifeform: long ago, i used to work with dewars quite like these. and never expected to find them on city streets
assbot: The Liquid Nitrogen Tanks of New York - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp3mOu )
asciilifeform: ^ apparently other folks noticed
asciilifeform: when i saw them, i started following the hose, in hopes of finding an ln2 icecream monger !
asciilifeform: (an old university delicacy.)
punkman: asciilifeform: I don't really have a theory. are we sure that nuked orphanage can't cause more wedges?
asciilifeform: punkman: i have yet to conceive of any wedge or other undesirable effect from it, other than a bit of wasted bandwidth
phf: i think maybe getblocks already works like "get block N" where n is block height. client sends out his top block on a chain, and server responds with a sequences (?) of blocks from then on
asciilifeform: (since you can't stop other folks from sending you bastard garbage)
punkman: do they have liquid nitrogen in other US cities?
punkman: seems expensive to maintain
asciilifeform: punkman: here in dc region they use tanks of compressed co2
asciilifeform: the one i spoke of in the linked thread hasn't been changed in... 2yrs
asciilifeform: if not longer
asciilifeform: quite empty
punkman: I have never seen any such thing in europe, perhaps they hide them
asciilifeform: the ones in nyc were fresh, covered in frost
asciilifeform: i do not know how long they have been there, but would dare to guess that it is since the flood a few yrs ago
asciilifeform: punkman: bottled dry gas is not a standard feature of copper phone grid!
punkman: guess it's cheaper than digging out shitty cables and replacing them
asciilifeform: normally, there are dry air machines at the exchange
asciilifeform: they blow straight into cable ducts
asciilifeform: (for fiber, all of this is entirely unnecessary)
punkman: don't fiber bundles have copper sometimes?
asciilifeform: for what ?
asciilifeform: optically-pumped repeaters are sop for... last decade ?
punkman: optically pumped repeaters? that sounds interesting
assbot: Optical communications repeater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf6tQN )
Naphex: that cam on stick thing
Naphex: pretty cool
mod6: <+punkman> mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release << yeah, i mentioned that after the fact lastnight. but was discussed here: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
mod6: <+mod6> so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories. << so if i do remove them by hand, have to ensure that these empty dirs wont get nuked later on accident
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 980 @ 0.00111 = 1.0878 BTC
ag3nt_zer0: !rate phf 1 helpful
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6cbe5193f62deee9
punkman: mod6, nuke the empty dirs, have the build script or makefile create them when it needs them?
mod6: sure there are other options. nothing quite as simple as "just blow away the .gitignore files"
mod6: s/simple/clean/
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, 64 connections on s.nsa node - a new record
mod6: cool!
asciilifeform: we will need more, more of these.
asciilifeform: and a peer discrimination mechanism.
asciilifeform: (something notably absent atm)
assbot: Superconducting power line to shore up New York grid - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8igD )
asciilifeform: decimation: nah. these were telco holes
decimation: low noise amps is a possibility
decimation: every rf guy knows noise = k*temp*bandwidth
assbot: New York's Nitrogen Tanks: Gothamist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8nkx )
decimation: it's odd that they would use nitrogen instead of dry air machine
decimation: maybe they need high pressure or something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.00057956 = 23.9648 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: decimation: cheap, in the short term
asciilifeform: not to mention that dry air machine is a large, central thing, and needs intact ducts
asciilifeform: (the latter are, possibly, no longer there, since the flood)
assbot: Google Answers: Liquid nitrogen into sewers - why? ... ( http://bit.ly/1Opzt7k )
decimation: "Re: liquid nitrogen...
decimation: Con Ed in New York City puts 160 L dewars on the street and uses the
decimation: cold gas to cool transformer vaults in the summer. The Dewars sit on
decimation: the street all over Manhattan."
decimation: http://www.popsci.com/those-nitrogen-canisters-nyc-streets-are-keeping-your-internet-cables-cool "“We’ve done a lot of work to get these off the street,” Johnson said. “It’s a big expense. This is not our business.” Just refilling the tank costs about $100, Diachok said, which they have to do every day to every three days. Right now in the city, Verizon has 54 tanks at 28 sites, and that number goes up in the winter when t
assbot: Page Unavailable ... ( http://bit.ly/1OpzFTO )
decimation: yeah apparently they also use the expansion of the gas to cool the lines next to hot steam, etc
asciilifeform: collapse bandages.
decimation: heh yeah pretty much. 'oh we installed shit on top of shit, what kind of bandaids can we use to keep the mess running rather than investing in fixing the problem?'
decimation: it's not unlike the ddos/spam problem mentioned earlier - each entity sees the street and sewer vaults as a zone to stuff shit for 'free'
decimation: 'tragedy of the commons'
ben_vulpes: mod6: re gitkeeps do we even know why those empty dirs are necessary for a succesful compile?
ben_vulpes: i've been able to get on the computer for maybe 10 minutes max at a stretch over the past few days, or i'd take a crack at it myself and figure it out
phf: ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.)
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform, punkman, panzers et al
ben_vulpes: so instead of duct taping the thing together perhaps fix the makefile?
phf: it's totally a makefile.unix artifact, since building with cmake/clang works without them
phf: yes please
ben_vulpes: p plz
ben_vulpes: phf later i'll want to pick your brain about compiling boost under clang/os x
ben_vulpes: but you know
ben_vulpes: snorkels and family call
phf: priorities!
ben_vulpes: i am clearly not elite enough to set my own priorities, otherwise i'd be down on the beach with a margarita and my laptop
ben_vulpes: OH WELL
ben_vulpes off again
decimation: boost compiles fine with macports
jurov: beach+laptop=onoes
decimation: but macports appears to want to use clang
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21298 @ 0.00058075 = 12.3688 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47400 @ 0.00055534 = 26.3231 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: http://www.thelocal.es/20150716/night-drone-mystery-at-spains-royal-palace " The privacy of Spain’s royal family is being invaded by unmanned aircraft which are using the cover of darkness to venture into airspace above King Felipe’s residence."
assbot: Night drone mystery at Spanish royal palace - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1IcNww3 )
decimation: ^ typical solution to 'tragedy of the commons' problem
decimation: or rather this: " Spain’s Ministry of Defence is said to be interested in introducing measures that will prevent drones flying in high-security zones following initiatives in London and Paris."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10127 @ 0.00055476 = 5.6181 BTC [-]
punkman: decimation: lol "measures"
mod6: <+phf> ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) << ben_vulpes yeah this stuff
mod6: <+asciilifeform> we will need more, more of these. << indeed
decimation: lol related to the earlier discussions about anti-confederates & anti-nazis: http://www.thelocal.es/20150706/madrid-mayor-to-rid-city-of-franco " Manuela Carmena, the new left-wing mayor of Madrid, is set to get rid of all street signs bearing references to the late dictator Francisco Franco, replacing them with the names of illustrious women and local heroes."
assbot: Madrid mayor to rid city of dictator Franco - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1SvXg5U )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00058075 = 8.7113 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93350 @ 0.00055475 = 51.7859 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: !up _flow_
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20704 @ 0.00058075 = 12.0238 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26309 @ 0.00058098 = 15.285 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27565 @ 0.00058239 = 16.0536 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1871 @ 0.00058339 = 1.0915 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14547 @ 0.00056253 = 8.1831 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69203 @ 0.00055148 = 38.1641 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: i've tried this thing 48 ways from sunday. context diff, unified, truncated files, removed files with/without -E smh
assbot: Logged on 07-09-2014 20:39:31; decimation: no, but my point is that destroying the structure of power typically empowers some megalomaniac to step in and fix things
decimation: I was thinking about this for awhile today, and about what would have happened if hitler had stopped with poland and consolidated power
decimation: it's pretty likely we would have germany+us+ussr today, or at least they would have been a 'triumvirate' during the cold war
decimation: mod6: did you try removing that line from the makefile.unix that reference the empty dir?
mod6: there's a bunch of lines that reference it actually, and no, i was hoping to get rid of these barnacles without having to change other files.
decimation: I suspect you are gonna need a shell script, like ascii suggested.
mircea_popescu: decimation dubiuous one could have "consolidated". that's what the soviet union tried. it collapsed. that's what the eu tried. it's collapsing.
mod6: yeah. well, i think i'll just prune by hand if I do at all. like i was saying earlier, im a bit paranoid now that some script might later accidentially remove the dirs if they're rendered empty.
mircea_popescu: once the war machine stops, all the fringe cocksuckers congeal.
mircea_popescu: the only way poland was worth holding for germany is if they were going into the ukraine. and ukraine in turn, going to moscow. etc.
mod6: gonna have to test prune by hand, and then test and ensure that these empty dirs will persist indifiniately.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, on their own merits, nobody wants to hold the lands of orcs.
mod6: *indefiniately
mircea_popescu: indefinitely ?
mod6: yah that :]
decimation: mircea_popescu: alright, perhaps the sudetenland (sorry jurov)
mod6: don't challenge me to a spelling contest, i'll lose.
mircea_popescu: so a slightly larger germany. still no different from the previous situation.
mircea_popescu: as hitler correctly figured out (and plainly said so) , the only future of germany as a nation lay in the destruiction of britain as an empire.
decimation: yeah, but the main point is that hitler was a populist dictator who actually delievered on his promises to a great degree
mircea_popescu: this turned out to be more expensive than originally thought, but it was done neverthjeless.
mircea_popescu: mno. the notion that hitler was populist is akin to the notion that obama is democratic.
mircea_popescu: sure, the turdmeisters in charge of the herd sell it thus.
mircea_popescu: they'd sell it any other way, makes no difference.
mircea_popescu: they put butter in blue or red or yellow packaging according to what the focus group says. you think butter is "red" ? butter is butter.
mircea_popescu: nobody yet stopped to consider "the real color of butter" for packaging purposes afaik,
decimation: all that might be true, but the nazi platform appeared to mostly be "give to the people all the things" (minus jews, foreigners, etc)
mircea_popescu: you can quote chapter and verse for this notion or are merely relying on what us agitprop and clueless derps like that mcdowell woman in that eddie murphy movie told you ?
assbot: Turns out you wanted Hitler after all. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1fgZ1XL )
mircea_popescu: (great film btw, murphy is the heir to the throne of zamunda, pursues some ugly nigglet in queens. who doesn't like him because he's rich, and to their assheads at the time in the 80s this is a flaw)_
decimation: "7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich."
decimation: "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties."
mircea_popescu: still a stretch neh ?
decimation: 13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
decimation: 14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.
decimation: what about hitler is 'against populism'?
mircea_popescu: fuhrerprinzip, for one.
mircea_popescu: i don't recall any sort of voting being held on when to attack, soviet style.
mircea_popescu: not that the guy is pointedly "against populism", admitting for the sake of argument that tyhe concept even holds meaning outside of its proper reference (it is after all a notion of democracy). but then again the bar for "not being x" is not "being patently against x"
mircea_popescu: ("you don't love me anymore" "sure i do" "prove it" "fuck you.")
mircea_popescu: s/fuck you/you made the statement, you prove it/ for any unschooled gals in the audience.
decimation: it's a fair point, he probably didn't believe it in his heart of hearts
mircea_popescu: he didn't act in a supportive manner throughout.
decimation: at any rate, my original point is that it would have been interesting to see german v. the world in an economic war rather than military
decimation: after all, britian capitulated rather quickly to us demands for it to 'decolonize'
mircea_popescu: specifically re 13 : if isis submits a bid to buy out raytheon, this proposal will not go to the shareholders. it will go to a so called "anti trust regulator" or w/e, which will reject it.
mircea_popescu: this is not populism, this is plain old nationalism.
mircea_popescu: only because germany was feigning death at the time.
mircea_popescu: and because exhausted by a decade of war etc
mircea_popescu: otherwise, see orwell : london in 1930 was entering its second decade of pretending ww1 never happenbed anmd "britannia forever"
mircea_popescu: anyway, zee germans have gained a very petty habit of being miserable to the people they owe gratitude to. no hitler statues, put that kohl fellow in jail...
mircea_popescu: then they sprout cheeky teenagers with "nordic system" delusions. won't fill the void.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:09:25; decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
decimation: hehe jurov explained it
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:16:30; decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
decimation: yeah, and your 'gambit' confirmed that they do strictly this
decimation: which is valuable to know
mircea_popescu: many things valuable.
mircea_popescu: nuked the parody site rightr off the net, but wh stands.
mircea_popescu: i think they spent a coupla million real dollars on that gateway
mircea_popescu: god only knows what the bill actually was.
decimation: which one? the akamai host you linked?
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:25:34; jurov: and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly?
mircea_popescu: decimation is 23.45.18.92 akamai ?
mircea_popescu: heh so it is.
decimation: 92.18.45.23.in-addr.arpa. 300INPTRa23-45-18-92.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com.
mircea_popescu: well that makes sense then. i was impressed originally.
decimation: which is why it didn't go down, they did spend $x mil, possibly $bil
mircea_popescu: anyway, all this is (as you prolly expect it from shit i do) very much experimental. trying to actually make a site where users can safely use their ips.
mircea_popescu: kinda informative attempt.
assbot: A Brief Primer on Anycast ... ( http://bit.ly/1fh0oG0 )
decimation: they carefully craft routing tables with all their peers so that they can have multiple hosts with the same ip
mircea_popescu: "But fresh data show that top schools are turning out black and Hispanic graduates with tech degrees at rates significantly higher than they are being hired by leading tech firms.
mircea_popescu: Last year, black students took home 4.1 percent of the bachelor’s degrees in computer science"
mircea_popescu: you gotta be shitting me.
mircea_popescu: they took 4% last year and are in the workforce at 2% ?
mircea_popescu: this is OVERREPRESENTED.
decimation: not to the shakedown artists
mircea_popescu: whole fucking country is by now the United Republic of Blackmail.
decimation: except, nobody seems to blackmail microsoft for pumping out shit
mircea_popescu: anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year.
decimation: maybe in their young and dumb days, but now they are legendary for their pickiness
decimation: all of the testing amounts to 'unofficial iq tests', as far as I can tell
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206433 << you're not gonna have "hdtv" on your thing. not that i mind. i wish they stopped making movies over 700mb. you REALLY do not need more than that for an hour of whatever
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:26:46; asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
mircea_popescu: decimation this was the pickiness.
mircea_popescu: "can't afford to not hire this guy now and have him hired by someone later".
mircea_popescu: sort-of like nobody hires 21 yo athletes as entry level.
decimation: heh now the 'movie industry' is going to 4k (3840 x 2160) 3D - in hopes they can hold off piracy, would be my guess
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:28:54; jurov: of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto
mircea_popescu: more like in hopes that social relevancy is tied to "technological advancement".
mircea_popescu: except there is such a thing as spurious detail.
trinque: see: 4k porn
decimation: indeed. my experience is not enhanced by watching the individual whiskars on gandolf's beard
mircea_popescu: moving from asciiart tits to 500kb gifs was a great reason to ditch the diskette and put in a cdrom
mircea_popescu: moving from 2mb gifs to 600mb .avis was a great reason to ditch the cdrom get a dvd
decimation: in fact, there's a point where it hits an 'uncanny valley' and you realize it's all a set with fake shit everywhere
mircea_popescu: but past that... who the fuck cares.
trinque: asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad
trinque: barfed on berkdb so I skipped it
decimation: which is why 24 fps in a dark room worked for 100 years
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:35:33; jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
decimation: very few providers in the world could even measure 100 gbs ddos
mircea_popescu: 1Mpps has been seen, so... yeah routing over wot will not be a trivial problem. but it does have a trivial solution :
mircea_popescu: only route for peers in your own network.
mircea_popescu: this will make "most of the web" inaccessible to "most people", but only if we measure "most" linearily.
decimation: note that this kinda implies you are building your own network, not using some else's ip routing
mircea_popescu: otherwise, all the web that matters will be visible to all the people who matter.
mircea_popescu: decimation just auto-drop any packets coming from unknown host.
mircea_popescu: you know those hops in the traceroute ? well... the assumption is that they'll just take a packet.
mircea_popescu: this needn't be true.
mircea_popescu: exactly how it works here : we have a public slut (ie, gribble) who will convey a message to anyone, and who can trivially be silenced. otherwise, suppose unknown asks you to convey message to me. well ? why would you.
decimation: yeah I get it
decimation: but how do I plug into this network?
decimation: I doubt comcast will peer directly
mircea_popescu: if you need to ask we do not want to see you.
mircea_popescu: it could trivially work on existing infrastructure really. the ability to ddos only exists on some ports and in some circumstances as it is, because that's what the derps use.
decimation: that was kinda my point about the 'charging per route'
mircea_popescu: server that rejects requests on 80 etc is way harder all of a sudden
decimation: you pay 10 satoshi, get 1e6 packets
mircea_popescu: you don't even need to charge per se. just, PEER. as in, actually.
mircea_popescu: none of this bs "every one walking is my peer".
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3439 @ 0.00055141 = 1.8963 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: yeah but that still implies physical connection
decimation: someone is gonna have to be in the middle, who may or may not route packets at their pleasure
mircea_popescu: you discard what they route anyway.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39323 @ 0.00058395 = 22.9627 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: yes but what if two wot members are peered through several untrusted hosts?
mircea_popescu: what if ?
decimation: the 'untrusted' routers implictly veto packet routing
decimation: or have the power to do so anyway
mircea_popescu: you drop all traffic except port 1337 and check sigs for that so as to only forward stuff to your own peers that they accept.
mircea_popescu: i dun see how they do anything. either they maintain compliance with tcp/ip spec as is, in which case they do nothing
mircea_popescu: or they break it, in which case they kill themselves but we still don't care (for the same reason original internet was robuts - rerouting)
decimation: or, they choose to null route only your stuff
mircea_popescu: that is like suicide for them
mircea_popescu: go ahead, i deeply care.
decimation: how you gonna send anything then?
mircea_popescu: what's next, power rangers will hurt the bitrcoin foundation by not releasing further crap ?
trinque: point would be to define your own network layer, then have multiple transports over which it may be routed
mircea_popescu: this notion that infrastructure has power is ludicrous.
mircea_popescu: you seriously proposing the internet just goes away ?
trinque: as said the existing internet does very much the same thing
ben_vulpes: <decimation> boost compiles fine with macports << i'm a homebrew dood. perhaps this is wrong?
decimation: isn't that exactly what 'ddos protection' and 'spam protect' do?
mircea_popescu: not as far as i see it.
decimation: ben_vulpes: homebrew seemed lame, but I haven't used it much
ben_vulpes: decimation: do you use macports regularly?
decimation: mircea_popescu: okay, suppose your favorite isp null routes your packets (kills your contract)
mircea_popescu: but the very basic "all plaintext email is spam, throw it out" rule would do that.
decimation: who are you gonna use now?
mircea_popescu: im going to sue them, because we have a contract.
decimation: ben_vulpes: yeah I've used it for years now
mircea_popescu: which they have to execute.
decimation: yeah it's a fair point
decimation: if you are in a datacenter you might get this level of service
mircea_popescu: and if they refuse to sign a contract, im going to sue them for refusing to sign a contract, which thewy actually have to do being a de facto monopoluy
mircea_popescu: and if they aren't, im going to use the competition.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
decimation: sure, in most non-orc places alternatives exist
mircea_popescu: there is no requirement the us must remain connected.
trinque: I really don't think not having a b-a satellite network should preclude getting started on gossipd
trinque: heh
trinque: just build it such that it'll work on that too
mircea_popescu: considering what sats cost these days...
decimation: ben_vulpes: I tried to compile the 1.55.0 boost on macports and it didn't work
trinque: well hell, if you're buying :D
decimation: it does compile 1.58 with clang though
decimation: for some reason the final link didn't work with bitcoind, gonna do some more research
ben_vulpes: i suppose that i'm pretty dumb for just downloading the source and expecting that i'll be able to compile it, huh?
decimation: mircea_popescu: sats are getting cheaper, but doing a 'multipoint sat constellation' is still going to be $$$$$
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:43:32; phf: it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes
ben_vulpes: ;;seen artifexd
gribble: artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 32 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <artifexd> I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is.
decimation: ^ and a small leo 'store-and-forward' would be cheap
decimation: ben_vulpes: like the stator source?
decimation: I tried that, didn't work on 10.6.8
mircea_popescu: decimation mp's law! when i was born, the first satellite had just cost a fortune. by the time i had my first threesome, they were doing consumer phone via satellite. as i made my self billion, fucing romania launched a satellite on a shoestring budget.
mircea_popescu: before i die i'm going to be farting satellites.
decimation: well, there's a whole movement of 'get space to the people'
ben_vulpes: i thought up an http-auth thing recently: http request headers containing a signed hash of one of the last 2 blocks
ben_vulpes: (signed by a customer or allowed user or someone the service provider likes)
mircea_popescu: why signed ?
mircea_popescu: so like the most ellaborate nonce ever ?
ben_vulpes: vulnerable to a bit of replay
ben_vulpes: mwell point is to gate access to an api without relying on tls
ben_vulpes: or broadcasting credentials in the clear ala http-basic auth
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:46:27; asciilifeform: again, it wasn't in mircea_popescu's spec
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206831 << mno. that's 'dotcom boom' sop. today - no one without 'straight a' marks is considered, etc.
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 00:30:21; mircea_popescu: anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but they've also stopped doing anything
mircea_popescu: when's the last time google had a product ?
trinque: I thought they only killed ones they purchased
ben_vulpes: oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge
mircea_popescu: they're still living off fucking google ads. which work about as good as an ant blowjob. since then, endless string of failures, briefcase, glass, g+ you name it
mircea_popescu: the mark cubanization of google.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: let us not forget "Inbox" or w/e
trinque: ben_vulpes: isn't that something they purchased?
mircea_popescu: actually briefcase was yahoo i guess, the "media company"
decimation: asciilifeform: tonight for dinner I had 'riga' sprat and rye bread (berliner broet)
mircea_popescu: o hey, delicious.
ben_vulpes: no, apple purchased the only decent mail application for ios to preserve their mailnopoly
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ios mail still sucks.
assbot: Google buys Sparrow, current apps will not get any new features | The Verge ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdaDs6 )
trinque: could've been descended from that.
ben_vulpes: because while they can mandate webkit as browser they cannot
decimation: ios mail won't 'push' from gmail servers
ben_vulpes: oh hey it was google
trinque: there were a few, apple might've too
ben_vulpes: heh yeah that's right
trinque: dropbox bought "mailbox"
ben_vulpes: my read at the time was "google is raping apple's mail experience"
ben_vulpes: ^^ mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: i know ios mail is bad.
decimation: yeah, still are apparently
ben_vulpes: i use the gmail application.
decimation: and everyone uses gmail because spam
decimation: it's a 'baptists and bootleggers' situation
mircea_popescu: i don't use gmail and don't have a spam problem. but hey.
ben_vulpes: it, unlike Mail™, sort of works.
ben_vulpes: the touchscreen however is an unredeemable text input device.
ben_vulpes: because text is not simply an 'input' problem.
mircea_popescu: "srsly, where's the macro on this thing" "the what ?"
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206934 << one of those things that cannot continue. useful orbits are already very crowded (mainly with garbage.)
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 00:49:30; mircea_popescu: before i die i'm going to be farting satellites.
ben_vulpes: but more precisely a 'transformation' thing.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i will build the garbage scows.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda why space war is inevitable. i see no problem shooting everything else out of orbit to fart my own
ben_vulpes: there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit.
ben_vulpes: cloud of water
mircea_popescu: oh srsly, oprah can not be broacast anymore now ? bwahahaha mkayt.
ben_vulpes: (for one)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206950 << you clearly did not actually go to the arse chaser and ask for a job
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 00:52:11; ben_vulpes: oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge
ben_vulpes: Fe shrapnel
asciilifeform: they chase everyone with a pulse
asciilifeform: hire - the brahmins
decimation: to me the solution to spam is "pay me to read your email in bitcoin"
trinque: just don't accept every soiled napkin as mail
trinque: and done
ben_vulpes: b-a mailservers when
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 00:56:25; ben_vulpes: there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what did you think dpaste was.
decimation: the stuff below a few hundred km is okay, because it is 'swept' by atmosphere
ben_vulpes: ad hoc bug ridden implementation of half of smtp
asciilifeform: uncle al's orbit-sweeper shotgun is only a matter of time.
decimation: but you need some method of keeping orbit to maintain
mircea_popescu: seems great to me. what's the problem with it ?
trinque: so. seriously. what's the story with artifexd ?
ben_vulpes: trinque: don't bite off gossipd man
mircea_popescu: ;;seen artifexd
gribble: artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 42 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <artifexd> I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is.
mircea_popescu: trinque guy seemed to be seriously working on it, was gonna say something in a coupla weeks a quarter ago.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell artifexd yo!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: this is probably where i confess that ~my~ gossipd is nearly done...
trinque: maybe he is, would just like to hear
trinque: asciilifeform: !!
ben_vulpes: he of many hands
mircea_popescu: but yes, gossipd is the huge sort of project that looks like it'd benefit from a few failure reports from failed attempts before we seriously have a shot.
asciilifeform: hey i started before you folks got hot & bothered
trinque: ben_vulpes: no kidding right?
mircea_popescu: not just because of stuff like the above asciilifeform comment, but also because well... huge.
ben_vulpes: trinque: i think he actually has employees
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes maybe HE is the one with slavegirls.
ben_vulpes: aha yes actually this makes sense
ben_vulpes: 'pet' has read knr
mircea_popescu: prolly has 588 of them, all the same height, wearing the same mask
decimation: asciilifeform: when buying from the german baker, I commented how my coworkers mock my sprat eating habits. her reply "always with the chicken this, chicken that"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that vacuum-packed babe was p lulzy
asciilifeform: decimation reminds me, i gotta resprat
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: attended another costco today
decimation: 'riga' is definitely smokey, I like it, but 'king oskar' is good too (unsmoked)
ben_vulpes: did not get ID'd
asciilifeform checks larder, notices a full clip of sprats. pet must have bought a bunch
ben_vulpes: i think everyone can smell your perma-lsd-trip.
decimation: it is weird how most usians are biased against fish in a tin
asciilifeform: decimation: i've yet to locate a supplier for unsmoked
decimation: or fish in general
trinque: decimation: I'll eat it
trinque: happen to like sardines
asciilifeform: decimation: in usa, 'fish in tin' typically means cheap tuna, and one notch above what is fed to cat
asciilifeform: (if that)
asciilifeform: to the point where ru immigrants sometimes are found to have lived on 'cat feed' for months
mircea_popescu: !up DanielBTC
ben_vulpes: (anyways, if anyone cares to poke holes in my proposed ghetto wot httpauthentication mechanism, plz do)
asciilifeform: without being even slightly aware of what it was for
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm still snarfing up the log
asciilifeform: was out, swimming
assbot: brisling sardines in olive oil » KING OSCAR – THE BEST SEAFOOD IN THE WORLD ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdbMQl )
ben_vulpes: and i snorkeling!
decimation: they sell them as 'brisling sardines' but they are sprat - I am certain of this
mircea_popescu: the sprat IS a sardine. that's what they're called in english.
asciilifeform: apparently not quite
decimation: it turns out there's many kinds of 'sardine'
asciilifeform: 'sardine' is a dish
asciilifeform: can be made from more than one animal
mircea_popescu: sprattus sprattus. that's what it is, the brisling
decimation: yes exactly
decimation: but they are sold as sardines in the us because they haven't heard of 'sprat'
mircea_popescu: no dood, sardine is a fish lol
mircea_popescu: you mean sardine' with an accent ?
asciilifeform: a dozen species
asciilifeform: are sold as 'sardine'
mircea_popescu: well sure.
asciilifeform: sprattus is one.
decimation: it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us
decimation: and from whence it comes
asciilifeform: at some point it will be possible to tell - with a geiger.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, did we ever discuss what zacusca ended up in romanian ?
ben_vulpes: one of the nicer things about hawaii is the plentify ahi
ben_vulpes: plentiful*
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: закуска ?
decimation: yeah hawaii has the best sushi I've eaten
decimation: especially in honolulu where they cater to rich japanese
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: original ru is, roughly, 'snack you eat when boozing it up'
asciilifeform: and in ro, i presume, means something other ?
mircea_popescu: yes. in romanian is this very specific, traditionally canned vegetable paste
PeterL: So I've been thinking about the mempool: There should be a size limit set in the config for mempool, along with the minFee. Each txn gets scored based on age of coins, amount in txn, size of txn, and fee, etc, once the size limit is reached if a txn does not meet the lowest ranking it is ignored, if it does then the lowest ranked txn is ejected to make space, and every once in a while the oldest and highest ranking txns in the mempool are rebroa
PeterL: to make sure they get included eventually in a block
mircea_popescu: mostly red pepper and baked eggplant
mircea_popescu: o hallo peterl
decimation: for spreading on bread/crackersA?
PeterL: hi
mircea_popescu: decimation quite.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: oh ha, we call that dish икра (as in 'caviar', yes, same word)
mircea_popescu: icre, of course, are hanbot's least favourite romanian food.
mircea_popescu: particularly "icre de crap"
mircea_popescu: which yes is a thing.
ben_vulpes: PeterL: you missed the thread where alf pointed out that 'mempool' is not a part of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: PeterL you know your thinking is a nearly exact restatement of what i said last week ?
asciilifeform: PeterL: mircea_popescu had a scheme quite like the one you described
PeterL: oh, must have missed it
PeterL: but what is bitcoin without transactions?
asciilifeform: it is more or less the obvious solution to 'how to keep a public tx pool'
asciilifeform: PeterL: more than one way to get tx from originator to miner
mircea_popescu: granted, i claim no ownersheep.
ben_vulpes: sync and serve mechanisms are vastly more important.
trinque: or more generally stated... "markets work"
mircea_popescu: just thought the guy may enjoy the notion ?D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056171 = 29.9953 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: PeterL: can be carried - directly. via pigeon. sailboat.
mircea_popescu: dude stop confusing can and will be. alf can pick up prostitutes in buenos aires, too.
asciilifeform: mempool is by far the weakest link in the chain we have today
PeterL: yeah, but it makes sense to have -some- relay built into reference version
mircea_popescu: via a sailboat.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "can" lol
PeterL: with my scheme, just set the max-size to 0 and it turns the mempool off
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has it. sorta like i asked my father, as a small boy, if furniture could speak. answer 'yes, in principle'
mircea_popescu: did i ever recount the joke about practice and theory ?
asciilifeform: (what i meant earlier was that tx only needs to get to the destination - miner. if it cannot get there cheaply and easily, it will get there expensively and painfully. but it will get there.)
mircea_popescu: after reading b-a log for the first time, little gavin schmuckssen went to his father
assbot: Pregnant WNBA Star Asks for $20K a Month Spousal Support from Her Wife | CNS News ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdcWLL )
mircea_popescu: "daddy, daddy, i heard these mean kids use two unknown words. theory and practice. do you know what is the difference ?"
mircea_popescu: old man schmuckssen calls over his wife. "honey, there's an arab prince at the door, wants to fuck you silly for a million bucks. what should i say to him ?"
mircea_popescu: "well... uhh... i'd never... you know we're behind on the mortgage and that nsa check is late..."
mircea_popescu: old man schmuckssen calls over his daughter
mircea_popescu: "listen dear, the arab prince has a friend. would you..."
mircea_popescu: YES ! YES!!! she cuts him off
mircea_popescu: "see gavin, in theory we're millionaires.
mircea_popescu: in practice, we're stuck with a coupla whores."
assbot: Last 17 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21TCSAR.txt )
ben_vulpes: <trinque> asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad << share!
trinque: ben_vulpes: took some very minimal notes, may share when I feel like I know what I'm doing
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al: must warn that abstractions don't actually work. that is, the underlying limitations of your db will 'leak out'.
asciilifeform: that is, updates - dog-slow, for example
trinque: yeah, I expect this
asciilifeform: you may get more of 'this' than you expected.
asciilifeform: but otherwise the thing worx.
trinque: this is an experiment to see whether I can transplant my standard patterns of db use to lisp
asciilifeform: trinque: so long as you were not expecting to transplant patterns of lisp to db use - you will be reasonably happy with 'elephant'
mircea_popescu: if not that, what is he expecting
mircea_popescu: using packages starting with the letter "e" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: background for thread: 'elephant' is this thing that tries to magick away the fact that db exists, by allowing you to mark an arbitrary lisp data structure as 'persistent' and churning it to db behind the scenes
asciilifeform: that is, an attempt to simulate 'proper computer' in this specific way.
trinque: I'll admit I got a bit uncomfortable seeing a keyvalue table
trinque: author must've been shy on altering schema
asciilifeform: author was trying to keep dbisms to a minimum.
asciilifeform fucking loathes db and everything connected with the notion
trinque: runs directly contarary to your idea of knowing the cost of an operation
trinque: that "table" could be 100 views deep
asciilifeform: not only
asciilifeform: it is a malignancy - in every way, from forcing me to touch and think about turdlangs, to being chock-full of opaque mechanisms and slow as fuck at its fastest
asciilifeform: and folks come to think that it excuses them from knowing jack shit about data structures and choosing right one for a job
BingoBoingo: <decimation> it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us << Catching own fish is possible
PeterL: The river running through my town has a "don't eat the fish" rule because of some toxic spill upstream from 20 years ago
trinque: asciilifeform: reasoning with sets and their relationships is why I use the db heavily in work
trinque: I have an inkling of being able to do the same thing in lisp, but you know, grew up in the congo, working on it
ben_vulpes: trinque: have you started reading the statice manual?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1207034 << ben_vulpes is a recent convert to 'costco' ?
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 01:01:54; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: attended another costco today
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: statice may or may not make sense without access to the live animal
BingoBoingo: PeterL: Recently had some "sour crude" leak from a pipe upstream of our reservoir
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: attended with family who are cult members
ben_vulpes: they were not id'd either
ben_vulpes: i am however considering a conversion
trinque: ben_vulpes: I have not
asciilifeform: it's roughly a hundy, iirc
asciilifeform: gives you a pass, and one for the woman
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: re statice, what parts wouldn't make sense? the thing is explained in painstaking detail.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: only need one - for the woman
ben_vulpes: trinque: go, read. a marvel of technical writing.
trinque: neat
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the symbolics books are a marvel of writing.
ben_vulpes: such as i have not seen in my career to date.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i may yet end up with a set because of this reason.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they were, iirc, the first hyperlinked manual (one was expected to read them on the machine - but it came with a paper set!)
asciilifeform: i have the paper
ben_vulpes: the covers are also gorgeous.
asciilifeform: it takes up most of a shelf
asciilifeform: was given to me, for phree, even
asciilifeform: by a phriend.
asciilifeform: gave me his 'alpha', too
trinque: asciilifeform: hm I already see your point, maybe, re: data structures
trinque: I get a tree, in a database!
trinque: you know, without parent_id and "with recursive"
trinque: I've done horrible things working with trees in SQL
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/smbxman.jpg << all but the blue (interlisp, xerox) and orange ('chinanual', for the original mit lisp mach)
trinque: so now I'm going to grow to like this, and then I'm going to be stuck later wondering why something I've done is slow
asciilifeform: on the real machine, you could actually execute the examples in the docs browser.
trinque: !up gabriel_laddel
asciilifeform: somebody buy gabriel_laddel a new modem ?
trinque: !up gabriel_laddel
trinque: bueller?
trinque: lol
ben_vulpes: he just got a job writing common lisp
ben_vulpes: fuck him
ben_vulpes: can buy his own damn modem
gabriel_laddel: trinque: lol
gabriel_laddel: trinque: does elephant allow you to redefine classes without restarting?
gabriel_laddel: manardb does everything but that...
ben_vulpes: manardb
gabriel_laddel: supposedly it's fast
trinque: gabriel_laddel: no idea yet; began just now
trinque: lemme see
trinque: nosql is a fucking sham
trinque: not that sql's great, but every "db" in that whole wave of shit can be forgotten
ben_vulpes twitches
ben_vulpes: that's triggering decimation
ben_vulpes: plz no bully
asciilifeform: and it is also an interesting case study: what kinds of brokenness produce these waves of 'kids who tried their best' (tm)
asciilifeform: like 'mongo'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you're stuck maintaining one of those things ?
ben_vulpes: was at one time
ben_vulpes: client blew their budget on ie8 css compatibility in a half-assed single page js app
decimation: from my own meatwot, the 'benefit' to mongo is that it can scale, because it 'runs twitter' or some shit
ben_vulpes: dude runs whatever
ben_vulpes: this is always a lie
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2466 @ 0.00058422 = 1.4407 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: some engineer somewhere in some corp decides to play with it for a week, people who wrote dumbthing get email of concern from said engineer, decide to advertise as "running bigcorp"
trinque: "JS and JSON, therefore ..." << is the process of "design" that shat all this
decimation: lul apparently mongo is 'most popular' http://db-engines.com/en/ranking/document+store
assbot: DB-Engines Ranking - popularity ranking of document stores ... ( http://bit.ly/1Idh7am )
decimation: ^ run moar winblows
ben_vulpes: dafuq
ben_vulpes: a document store
ben_vulpes: you assholes are winding me up deliberately.
asciilifeform: i can usually tell from talking to a fella who programs - for three minutes - whether he's 'seen the elephant'
ben_vulpes has maybe touched the penile bit
asciilifeform: which is to say, in this case, whether he has already had the flash of realization that the shit he is working with sucks because of 'anthropic principle' - that is, if it weren't a crock of shit, he would not have his job...
decimation: asciilifeform: my experience is that much of this kind of thing is only learned by 'tried, fucked me'
trinque: asciilifeform: obligatory reference to fake stroustrup interview
trinque: decimation: yes, I did once choose couchdb when I was 22
trinque: ass still smarts
decimation: actually I did go through the slides on that stroustrup talk
gabriel_laddel: trinque: I met the guy who wrote that. Ugh.
asciilifeform: naggum had a thing re: 'job-creating systems'
trinque: gabriel_laddel: did you punch him in the dick?
decimation: the most amusing bit to me was his little diatribe against garbage collectors
gabriel_laddel: trinque: haha no
gabriel_laddel: me: "lisp makes meta-programming trivial" him: "if it did they'd rule the world already, and therefore I don't have to consider your argument"
ben_vulpes: this is why i don't talk to programmers i don't know about programming.
asciilifeform: 'if yer so smart why aitcha rich'
asciilifeform: (tm) (r)
decimation: stroustrop appears to 'hate' garbage collection because (correctly) hardware fucks him
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27683 @ 0.00058511 = 16.1976 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: this apparently means 'no garbage collection' not 'no shit hardware'
asciilifeform: he takes the hardware as a given
trinque: he doesn't hate the world enough to say it should change
gabriel_laddel: ;; seen Xemist
gribble: I have not seen Xemist.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67670 @ 0.00058535 = 39.6106 BTC [+] {2}
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: wtf why are you grepping for that.
gabriel_laddel: does manardb not work out of the box?
ben_vulpes: no sir it does not appear to
ben_vulpes: Symbol "MREMAP" not found in the OSICAT-POSIX package.
assbot: What – if anything – have we learned from C++? by Bjarne Stroustrup @… ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeaT9 )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66500 @ 0.00057912 = 38.5115 BTC [-] {2}
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: You can "man mremap"?
ben_vulpes: watch this be an os x problem
ben_vulpes: "No manual entry for mremap"
ben_vulpes: hyuuuuuuu
asciilifeform: didn't ben_vulpes get hold of an actual computer at some point recently ?
gabriel_laddel: OSICAT is a unix bindings library, download/build that program, it'll CFFI some stuff and kosher.
gabriel_laddel: ftr, when using manardb you'll have to force it to init on reboot by creating a junk mmap'ed class.
asciilifeform: ~retch~
ben_vulpes: even on macos?
assbot: masamune/init.lisp at master · gabriel-laddel/masamune · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeEsp )
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: lolidk prolly
gabriel_laddel: I'm just leaving this in the logs on the off chance someone decides to play around with it.
ben_vulpes: why can't i have software that works.
gabriel_laddel is working on it, but money, time, lazy etc.
ben_vulpes: i feel like herr popescu with apache and his caching layer
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: because you haven't hardware that works.
asciilifeform: otherwise - could write it.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel, for instance, probably believes that he has 'hardware that works.' just as i did, in 2008
asciilifeform: he does not.
ben_vulpes: okay well trinque gabriel_laddel i give up on this lisp persistence thing
ben_vulpes: i'm writing raw sql in my cl going forward
asciilifeform: after he learns that he doesn't, he will probably come to believe that it can be emulated on hardware which almost works.
trinque: there are a hundred large pieces of software already out in the wild begging to be ripped open by something new
asciilifeform: as i did in 2009.
asciilifeform: it cannot.
trinque: old crufty industries that are not interesting to those trying to advance the art of computer science.
trinque: go kill a few of those and fund your computer
gabriel_laddel: haha, I believe no such thing, but I have to deliver "working" (for some value of that word) software to clients irrespective of how hardware behaves.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: bingo!
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: 'for some value of the word' - you can go do, on microshit, in visual basic, sure.
asciilifeform: i was speaking of ~actually fucking works~
asciilifeform: like the brooklyn bridge works
gabriel_laddel: Or I could use CL, PCLOS, retain my sanity.
asciilifeform: like a colt '45 works
decimation: for example, you can make a syscall and all possible outcomes are foreseen
decimation: if you cannot predict the outcome of a request of the hardware, how can you possibly 'fix it' in software?
assbot: Re: is CLOS reall OO? - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdjH0i )
phf: my favorite way to do lisp persistence is to just keep everything in memory and do ext:save-lisp from a that does minor amount of saved image management. i learned the trick from avi bryant back when he was writing interesting code
asciilifeform: decimation: hardware can also make certain operations impractically unreliable (e.g., persistence across power toggles) or impractically slow (e.g., all-pointers-are-typed-pointers as on lispm will never happen on x86)
phf: *from a thread
asciilifeform: 'save-lisp-and-die'
phf: yes, but without the instance dying part
ben_vulpes: slad doesn't really address the power toggle thing
asciilifeform: if your working ram is 1) at least as big as your data set 2) connected to own nuke reactor, never loses power - then, great.
ben_vulpes: or lisp instance crashign either, though right?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if your lisp crashes, something is very very wrong in your house
phf: ^
ben_vulpes: hey man i'm a really bad programmer
ben_vulpes: this is such a bold claim!
asciilifeform: i'm a terrible cook. but have never 'crashed' my kitchen yet
ben_vulpes: really? i'm supposed to eat this? that lisp isntances don't crash?
asciilifeform: (it is still standing)
decimation: " I actually think C++ is ideal only for programmers without any ethics.
decimation: you must lie, you are encouraged to declare your private stuff and keep
decimation: the cards very closely to your breast, but if you need access, you just
phf: i've crashed cmucl a few times, but only when i would reach into heap to access vectors directly. acl and lispworks never crash on me
decimation: go ahead and change other people's class definitions. "
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i have never succeeded in crashing sbcl, for instance
gabriel_laddel: it is pretty easy to crash your lisp using CL-OPENGL
asciilifeform: at least, not without doing ffi
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: aha, ffi
decimation: gabriel_laddel: sure, because hardware/drivers fuck you
ben_vulpes: what about sharing data structures across many instances?
phf: i think the idea here is that some data loss is way cheaper then programmer time. also memory is way cheaper then programmer time. if you have a really critical data stream, just do a write only log, that you can either replay or even just recover manually
asciilifeform: phf: 'write-only log' is what, paper tape ?
ben_vulpes: you're telling me that i should what...just write code?
trinque: maybe means write ahead log?
phf: asciilifeform: essentially
phf: in my experience it's cheaper to literally go a log file and reconstruct data manually the one time your system crash, then introduce uknowable redundancies that tend to increase complexity and ultimately result in the crash, because doesn't fit in head
asciilifeform: phf: go reconstruct blockchain manually.
asciilifeform: this is ludicrous.
asciilifeform: if it can be done manually, economically, i would not be using a fucking computer !
asciilifeform: the answer is ALWAYS, without exception, fits-in-head+does-not-crash+operates-correctly.
assbot: Colossus - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oqhm12 )
asciilifeform: if you have something else - you do not have the answer.
trinque: wait a sec
trinque: in elephant I can only "where" on one slot?
trinque: I have to say so far the querying capacity of this thing looks to be on par with couchdb
phf: asciilifeform: that's my answer to. the log is a contingency plan for when the lisp instance fails, which it rarely does. in which case your goal is to reconstruct the state from the time of last save-lisp (say an hour), till the point of crash
phf: the loc on that is in 10s, rather then 1000s + external servers for when your first reaction is to "reach for database"
trinque: I have noticed many times that when someone tries to pry the relational model from my hands, I lose behavior and am then told "you didn't actually need that behavior"
assbot: 'The Pobble Who Has No Toes' - Edward Lear ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqhXzB )
ben_vulpes: i am going to spend 2 years just reading CL tooling documentation before putting anything into production at this rate.
ben_vulpes: Adlai: once told me that the 'log reading' period for CL was well in excess of that for #b-a
ben_vulpes empties his cup
ben_vulpes: again
asciilifeform: it is measured in years, yes
ben_vulpes: what about deploying code to servers? just slime-connect to the remote host over an ssh tunnel and then compile the new codebase in?
trinque: asciilifeform: so am I meant to read every damn object into memory just to filter on >1 slot?
asciilifeform: can watch continents drift.
asciilifeform: trinque: if you don't like this, can make own indices
asciilifeform: i don't get this thing were folks expect others to chew for them
asciilifeform: wipe arse too ?
asciilifeform: srsly, it is a bad habit imho
asciilifeform: but curable!
trinque: there are loads of repeating patterns in end-user data access
trinque: I am not sorry I used relational as a "gun to fire today"
ben_vulpes: there's a difference between chewing and a tool that abstracts a thing that needs doing
trinque: I'll take a gun to fire tomorrow too
ben_vulpes looks at postmodern again
gabriel_laddel: " What I want to be able to do is this.
gabriel_laddel: 1. Turn on the machine.
gabriel_laddel: 2. Work.
gabriel_laddel: 3. Have a bit of fun provided I've done enough of 2, which is rarely, but that's another issue.
gabriel_laddel: When I say 'work', I mean I want to be able to start typing on the screen, and if I feel like putting in a drawing, I draw on the screen. Or I bring something from my scanner on to the screen, or I send something from my screen to someone else. Or I get my Mac to play the tune I've just written on the screen on a synthesiser. Or well, the list obviously is endless. And if I need any particular tool to enable me to d
gabriel_laddel: o anything complicated I simply ask for it. And I mean simply. I should never have to put away the thing I'm working on unless I've actually finished it (fat chance say my publishers) or want to do something else entirely."
trinque: ben_vulpes: it's fine; eats a sql string or sexp version thereof, farts list
assbot: DNA/Frank The Vandal ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqikKE )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51564 @ 0.00056128 = 28.9418 BTC [-]
trinque: gabriel_laddel: I want to sit down and catalog everything around me according to kind and relationship
trinque: then do arbitrary data analysis over it, and fast, damn it!
trinque: most businesses out there (that make a profit even!) are entirely blind
trinque: or they happened upon a few tools that answered enough of the essential questions that they never bothered asking more
phf: ben_vulpes: re server deploy http://www.nicklevine.org/play/patching-made-easy.html, not the only solution, but pretty cool
assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqiBND )
trinque: asciilifeform: that doesn't solve it for me either, really
trinque: many user interfaces are essentially an editor for the where clause, order by, and so on for some query
trinque: the conditionals involved are not necessarily known in advance
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87068 @ 0.00056836 = 49.486 BTC [+] {3}
trinque: I don't buy that you should know in advance every interesting question you might ask your data
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform, phf, Adlai, gabriel_laddel: still curious about deploying CL code to running instances
trinque: but perhaps that doesn't follow; I dunno yet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124100 @ 0.00058934 = 73.1371 BTC [+] {4}
ben_vulpes: thanks phf
trinque: couchdb had this too
ben_vulpes: wow i just remembered that gribble integration you wrote
gabriel_laddel: trinque: size of the data sets you're dealing with?
trinque: where an index had to be written for every "query" in advance
ben_vulpes: or was it assbot...
phf: ben_vulpes: it was assbot. i started on gribble, but it doesn't work as well
trinque: gabriel_laddel: could be millions of rows or more; how many widgets does factory X fart out per year?
trinque: what are all the classifications and distinctions involved in doing so?
trinque: how many interesting relationships exist?
phf: gribble returns identical strings for everyone, so there's no way to know if verify request is directed to you or someone else
gabriel_laddel: Allegrocache is the only lisp solution that will work for this size dataset afaik, and I've spent a lot of time looking.
gabriel_laddel: trinque:
trinque: yeah, looked at that
ben_vulpes: or perhaps we want to track quality ratings for *every widget produced*
ben_vulpes: coviariance analysis with shop humidity at the time
ben_vulpes: trains going by
trinque: mhm, should be able to add classifications at will all day long
trinque: and I wanna goddamn *see* the relationships
trinque: or why did I build this cockpit for my business at all?
trinque: so I could memorize it all and go on my gut?
trinque: gabriel_laddel: notably data modeling and analysis is one of the Franz offerings
trinque: didn't surprise me at all
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu, et al: http://imgur.com/a/ED5Nl
assbot: Miracast Internals - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqkIAW )
asciilifeform: (if you have one of these, and it is not obvious how to open it - use a very sharp knife.)
asciilifeform: i found it interesting how the 802.11 module is anchored with just 6 solder balls - wonder what the protocol is
asciilifeform: (though his unit is not entirely the same)
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206849 <<< but what about getting a 2nd monitor so you can watch 2 fullscreen pornos at once
assbot: Logged on 20-07-2015 00:34:13; mircea_popescu: but past that... who the fuck cares.
trinque imagines cazalla trying to cross his eyes to look at both
trinque: lol
ben_vulpes: v expensive 3d solution
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51118 @ 0.00056031 = 28.6419 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36527 @ 0.00055158 = 20.1476 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: asciilifeform: re: solder balls: unfortunately sop these days
decimation: everything is lightly glued with shit solder
asciilifeform: decimation: in this case it was on account of the 802.11 thing ('realtek') being a separate pcb
decimation: ah yeah I see that
decimation: only on the edges too
decimation: well, what you expect for $12
asciilifeform: the thing works
asciilifeform: i cut it open in search of an obvious test point for uart
asciilifeform: (did not find such)
decimation: I assume that's a bga part (the cpu)
asciilifeform: cpu and ram were both bga
asciilifeform: radio (front), eeprom and vreg (back) - conventional
decimation: sux. they must have ripped out all the debug for production cheapness
asciilifeform: can read out / rewrite the rom if i had a soic16 crocodile (i presently lack one)
asciilifeform: got only the familiar soic8 that everyone has
asciilifeform: there may or may not be a public root exploit for these
asciilifeform: but i hate to rely on these
decimation: yeah, also there are probably hardware variants, according to your research
asciilifeform: on account of them being 'here today, gone tomorrow'
asciilifeform: (as was with 'chromecast')
decimation: obviously somebody is pumping these out by the mega-boat load
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25757 @ 0.00059018 = 15.2013 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2743 @ 0.00059018 = 1.6189 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: cazalla: how's the wife/child?
cazalla: gabriel_laddel, good but his tantrums have kicked up a notch and he climbs everything
cazalla: missus wants another but seems last months attempts didn't strike :P
gabriel_laddel: "climbs everything" < good to hear he's healthy
cazalla: he's pretty clever, stacked a couple pillows in order to get up on the tv unit
cazalla: enjoys books too which is good but reading jack and the beanstalk for 20th time each day gets a bit much, he's really picked up with that past 1-2 months bring us books to read him
gabriel_laddel: sounds like a smart kid, good for you.
mod6: asciilifeform: nice pics. protocol? maybe i don't get what you're asking exactly, but it says "D8027G1"
cazalla: well, all parents like to think that of their kids but time will tell, i've read to him each day since he was born
trinque: that's a hell of a step in the right direction
gabriel_laddel: "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
gabriel_laddel: "The Wheel of Time"
gabriel_laddel: trilema.com
gabriel_laddel: maybe that last one gets pushed back a few years\
cazalla: perhaps trilema when he is a bit older (side note - the story about the boy and the tree is a good one i'll read to him when a little older)
assbot: A story of a boy and a tree on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JaKoRZ )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97300 @ 0.00059067 = 57.4722 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36100 @ 0.00059129 = 21.3456 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.15099999 = 1.359 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.15090322 = 1.509 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 10 @ 0.15099999 = 1.51 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.15090322 = 1.509 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.15099999 = 1.057 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 11 @ 0.15090322 = 1.6599 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 11 @ 0.15099999 = 1.661 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 12 @ 0.15090322 = 1.8108 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.15099999 = 1.359 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 12 @ 0.15090322 = 1.8108 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu, et al: found the test pads on that 'miracast' thing. they were, unsurprisingly, under the sticker.
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