Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-07-03 | 2015-07-05 → ↓
decimation: yeah I think we were forked a long time ago actually
decimation: this getconsensus stuff is lulzy
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 03:50:47; mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: anybody interested in multiprocessorizing bitcoin sig check ? << i don't see the benefit.
asciilifeform: is the benefit.
asciilifeform: having to wait for cpu on a 16 core box is retarded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform listen, seems the chain actually forked.
mircea_popescu: none of my nodes verify the imaginary 737-738 blockchain.info claims to exist.
phf: somebody was saying bitcoind doesn't build on a 32 bit system?
asciilifeform: phf: pogo is 32bit
asciilifeform: builds beautifully
mircea_popescu: accepted connection 148.251.238.178:55366
mircea_popescu: version message: version 70002, blocks=363738
phf: ah
mircea_popescu: 363738 16 minutes3204,982.79 BTC BitFury 180.66
mircea_popescu: 363737 21 minutes1663,059.67 BTC BW.COM 65.25
mircea_popescu: anyone actually see these ?
asciilifeform: axe-time, sword-time
mircea_popescu: seems so.
mircea_popescu: i guess they eventually settled on pretending it's an accident or what ?
ben_vulpes: FORK?
ben_vulpes: FORK!
ben_vulpes: forkforkforkforkfork
asciilifeform: 0.8 sees the phork
ben_vulpes: ph0rk
mircea_popescu: i dun see another peer other than the 148 above that claims to have 738
ben_vulpes: r4ngn4phr0k
mircea_popescu: [ This is the only occurrence ]
mircea_popescu: anyone see one ?
asciilifeform envious of mircea_popescu's spiffy ph0rkdebugger
mircea_popescu: ( cat debug.log | grep -B3 "blocks=363738" if nothing else)
asciilifeform: but yes, i've had sync scrolling for says, and seeing quite a few 'nonstandard tx, rejected...'
mircea_popescu: yes, but those happen all teh time
assbot: Blocks mined on 04/07/2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RXfKfp )
assbot: Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363730 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RXfLQv )
mircea_popescu: looks a lot like a withholding chain attack tbh
asciilifeform: 363741 on 0.8
mircea_popescu: note the orphaned is 8 blocks long
mircea_popescu: the "lonmger chain" 6.
mircea_popescu: sorry, i mean 6 and 5.
mircea_popescu: anbd how teh fuck does it continue on an orphan block anyway
ben_vulpes: "However, this also means they're not checking the new BIP66 rule, and are now mining invalid blocks because of it. (another miner happened to create an invalid, non-BIP66 respecting block) If you're not using Bitcoin Core, you might be accepting transactions that won't be on the longest valid chain when all this is fixed." << curious to see if 0.5.whatever comes out on top at the end of this
ben_vulpes: my position being "if your notion of a valid block has to patch 0.5.*, get fucked."
decimation: yeah but this apparently happened awhile ago
decimation: when they put the IsSuperMajority code check in
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes tjhat's the only position.
asciilifeform: i did say, no?
ben_vulpes: "The majority of hashing power is mining an invalid chain - it's not going to "win" - they're just wasting their effort." << euheuheuheuheuheheehueheuheuheehu
mircea_popescu: "new bip66 rule" my foot.
asciilifeform: shitgnomatic bitcoin has been a fork since gavin turned
asciilifeform: and likely prior.
ben_vulpes: simple rehash of the "let's probe network cohesion strength" fork
asciilifeform: a fork that hasn't sprung yet is still fok
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wait, the usg dept of stupid is now on the record that miners don't, after all, decide ?
ben_vulpes: so what, f2pool and phrenz dies next week?
mircea_popescu: can they make up their mind or something ?
ben_vulpes: nigga pleez
mircea_popescu: anyway, foundation ppl : plox to make a statement on this matter
ben_vulpes: "Except BIP 66 received 95% support from the relevant group (miners). " << ehuehuehehueeueueueueueeeee
mircea_popescu: gotta explain to the masses 1) how irresponsible it is to empower scammers, whjether they call themselves "pirate", "Gavin" or anything else
mircea_popescu: and 2) retty much that.
asciilifeform: 3) не шагу назад
asciilifeform: (tm) (r) (stalin)
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: translation plox?
asciilifeform: 'not one step back'
mircea_popescu: not a step bac
asciilifeform: the title of a 'papal bull' he signed during the war
mircea_popescu: BIP66 protocol rule changes have gone active in part thanks to Antpool and F2Pool's support of it - but their pool appears to not actually be enforcing the new rules, and is now mining invalid blocks << lulzy.
mircea_popescu: "we just sittin' here noddin'"
ben_vulpes: Bitcoin 0.5.3 is the canonical reference implementation. If a fork occurs and one side validates on the 0.5.3 codebase while the other does not, the chain that validates under 0.5.3 is the only valid chain.
mircea_popescu: Bitcoin Core (after 0.10.0) rejects these invalid blocks, but a lot of other stuff doesn't. SPV Bitcoinj wallets do no validation what-so-ever, blindly following the longest chain. blockchain.info doesn't appear to do validation as well; who knows what else? <<
mircea_popescu: anyway, todd is right. the only way this affects us is that we don't really give much of a shit.
ben_vulpes: mod6 if you feel compelled to elaborate on this, go ahead.
mircea_popescu: let 'em figure out how to do soft forks or w/e.
ben_vulpes: i have a porch of meatwot and babes that actually need attending to.
ben_vulpes: frantic action is for the impotent.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how the power rangers imagine they'll manage a hardfork when they can't as much as get a "relevant support" softwork that's fairly uncontroversial.
ben_vulpes: i've not yet accepted this soft/hardfork duality.
ben_vulpes: things either validate under 0.5.whatever or they don't.
mircea_popescu: well, any people can at any time decide to narrow the rules. this makes some sense.
decimation: they claim this is a softfork
mircea_popescu: hard fork is enlarging the rules.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all thios would validate under .5
decimation: actually I think this is gonna be fine on 0.5
mircea_popescu: the idea is they don't want to see some stuff that validates anymore
mircea_popescu: this is no skin off my back, who cares.
ben_vulpes: too bad, fuck them.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> Bitcoin 0.5.3 is the canonical reference implementation. If a fork occurs and one side validates on the 0.5.3 codebase while the other does not, the chain that validates under 0.5.3 is the only valid chain. << I have nothing further to add to this at this time.
decimation: the problem is that 0.5.3 blocks generated by 0.5.3 won't validate if those IfSuperMajority rules check
mircea_popescu: decimation provided their "mine support" actually materializes
mircea_popescu: otherwise, no.
decimation: well actually yes
decimation: because they already did a 'softfork' on the nVersion
decimation: I'm not sure if there are enough blocks to trigger it
ben_vulpes: T.I.A.S. (tm) (r) (#emacs)
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: anyone can narrow the rules, but whether that's "bitcoin" is an open question.
mircea_popescu: i dun see it. the rule is "come to school dressed". if you all agree to wear skirts or all agree to wear cardigans, it's still school.
ben_vulpes is also curious to see how much "political capital" the derpdation burns today
decimation: if (block.nVersion < 2 && IsSuperMajority(2, pindexPrev, consensusParams.nMajorityRejectBlockOutdated, consensusParams))
mircea_popescu: o yea. that's part's gonna be epic.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes knows full well that it'll be blamed on 'wreckers'
ben_vulpes: primarily, me.
mircea_popescu: lmao right.
mircea_popescu: get out.
ben_vulpes: i never did anything, we all know that. joke's almost too easy.
ben_vulpes: "Updating to the latest when what you have works is how you break things.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is jit to lay kakobrekla's wonderments to rest.
mircea_popescu: happy pappy ?
ben_vulpes: "They're not running full nodes because the current 500KB blocks are too big.
ben_vulpes: ehueh
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32404 @ 0.00051768 = 16.7749 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: reddit, for all the silencing and muting of the actual bitcoin foundation, seems to be turning the corner on sense
mircea_popescu: this is such a goatfucked moment for teh schmucks...
ben_vulpes: "Most likely this is caused by broken-by-design-for-profit mining code, but none of their stuff is open source AFAIK. Maybe more details will be known with time."
ben_vulpes: << lukejr
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell lukejr listen you gotta stop it wiht this "i can tell miners what's right and wrong" bs
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: why ? he's a god fearing rotinculo from wisconsin or whatever.
mircea_popescu: on the record having lied for profit and all that good stuff, but why should anything matter.
ben_vulpes: man all i can do is nail this coffin closed
ben_vulpes: one goddamn nail at a time
ben_vulpes: hey kakobrekla how much can i cram into a rating field?
asciilifeform: wait for'em all to get in
asciilifeform: before nailin'.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: nodeps!
ben_vulpes: i want a man in the ground, i don't make that dependent on his wife squirting or w/e
mircea_popescu: Uh oh all these block explorers just flipped over to the invalid chain:
mircea_popescu: http://btc.blockr.io/ <-- (seems to be flip flopping between the two chains)
assbot: Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBp8O )
assbot: Bitcoin Block Exporer | BlockCypher ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBp8Q )
mircea_popescu: Explorers on the good chain:
assbot: Bitcoin API - Chain ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBoBO )
assbot: PSA: F2Pool is mining INVALID blocks : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBqJG )
mircea_popescu: "Current status: F2Pool still broken; Antpool fixed (but no promise they won't intentionally re-break in the future)." is really all that one needs to lol
decimation: this is the dumbest fucking thing I've seen in all my years with bitcoin
decimation: if there's any reason why bitcoin will never be adopted, it's this kind of shit
ben_vulpes: "re-break"?
mircea_popescu: nah, the "we'll move to this new db system one schmuck that gofer'd coffee at google wrote with his chest hairs and nobody tested in any way" was the stupidest sahit
ben_vulpes: meaning adopt the power ranger braindamage again?
mircea_popescu: but the "we'll make wallet a plaintext file" and the "we'll target windows" and the "you know what's better than boost ? qt!" were pretty epic turn points too
ben_vulpes: shinohai: you around?
mod6: shinohai: is your v0.5.3.1-RELEASE node up to dayte?
mircea_popescu: i don't think any sane nodes can be up to date atm, until this resolves.
asciilifeform: i doubt anything can ever beat the 'i'll use c++, and on vs for good measure' moment
mircea_popescu: anyway, having been duly amused for the evening, i retire to my eulorean empire.
ben_vulpes: trinque: do you have a RI up-to-date?
trinque: errr what's up to date?
asciilifeform: i got one that's a few hrs away from sync
trinque: I have a stator build
mod6: the hope was to find if he can verify if v0.5.3.1 rejected or accepted the blocks in question; 363738
ben_vulpes: synced
trinque: ah no sir
trinque: just deleted muh blockchain to resync
mod6: mine is currently sync'ing against mp's seed.
ben_vulpes: plz foar not to buhlete!
trinque: I have others
ben_vulpes: cp ~/.bitcoin.bak/
trinque: this laptop has not infinite gigs
ben_vulpes: ah mhm.
ben_vulpes: how's btcd handling r4gn4phr0k?
trinque: the who and the whatnow?
trinque: was syncing pretty quick, but I stopped and deleted for to be syncing against mircea_popescu's node
trinque: got to like 150k I think before I stopped
ben_vulpes: no no the conformal impl
ben_vulpes: i thought you were running a conformal impl somewhere
trinque: I am, how is it handling what though
trinque: you got too 1337 on me
ben_vulpes: there's a ph0rk in progress
trinque: oh!
trinque: lemme see muh logz
ben_vulpes: check ur lawgz bru
trinque: yeh just got home
ben_vulpes: i'm nominally on vaycay but...panzer
trinque: REORGANIZE
trinque: quite a bit of that.
ben_vulpes: euhue
trinque: EXTEND FORK
ben_vulpes has never seen a reorg happen live
trinque: would the logs be interesting in any way?
trinque: can paste
mod6: sure, dpaste 'em up for maxtime
ben_vulpes: foar posterity and posteriors
asciilifeform: gavin alert out
ben_vulpes: ugh man i kinda hate this
ben_vulpes: "the chain that is the real chain is the chain that verifies under 0.5.3"
ben_vulpes: this is almost as bad as defining a word with the word to be defined
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: we're doing war, not mathematics
asciilifeform: enemy is defined by pointing 'that one'
asciilifeform: 'the fella shooting our way'
trinque: man chrome sucks at big pastes
ben_vulpes: trinque: host it y'self.
decimation: 'you may not be interested in a fork, but...'
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu, mod6, asciilifeform: i don't see a reason to make this much more than 25 words. do you think much detail or polemic is necessary here?
asciilifeform: 25 oughta do
asciilifeform: 'who comes to us with a fork, shall die by the fork'
decimation: better to say less until we know wtf is going on
mod6 looks
ben_vulpes: perhaps a hash of the codebase instead of the semver crap?
ben_vulpes is somewhat at sea w/r/t propaganda semantics
decimation: I would say that on its face, bip66 isn't such a terrible idea
decimation: but the way it's being forced is pretty stupid
trinque: http://dpaste.com/2KR17VF.txt << btcd log of 2015/07/03 fork
asciilifeform: if gavinists bring cure for cancer - it is bad idea.
asciilifeform: this is an absolute.
mod6: s/must be considered/is a/ ?
decimation: yeah, it's not the bip66 issue, it's the mechanism they inserted for forcing change
mod6: er /is an/
ben_vulpes: mod6: myeah entirely.
asciilifeform: 'bip66' is a grappling hook, yes
ben_vulpes: well this signature issue is tricky as shit already - openssl is already blowing up validating the chain with anything other than...
ben_vulpes: what was the version number of openssl we determined necessary to validate the full chain?
mod6: 1.0.1g
ben_vulpes: ty, 1.0.1g
mod6: otherwise we had issues on 168`001 iirc
mod6 doublechecks the SoBAs
asciilifeform: stator built on 1.0.1g.
asciilifeform: for this reason.
decimation: 'please sir, accept my resonable patch in exchange for agreeing to forever accept what 'our mechanism' brings'
asciilifeform: this is why shitgnomes are to be written out of the script permanently and unconditionally
decimation: although as I've noted, they already incremented this machine
asciilifeform: regardless of what they bring, or claim to bring, or promise to bring, to the table
asciilifeform: political, rather than technical decision
asciilifeform: (for as long as it carries under 'technical', the weasels can whine, wheedle, emit 'reasonable reasonings', even persuade the persuadable)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8100 @ 0.00052134 = 4.2229 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: political - and absolute. like blade of guillotine.
decimation: asciilifeform: I can already hear jwz saying that he doesn't want politics, just to do the right thing
ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/367HMKF.txt
ben_vulpes: must be considered-> is an
mod6: nice
ben_vulpes: an informal signoff from y'bosses would be nice before i deposit this in the white porcelain turdotron
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33230 @ 0.0005207 = 17.3029 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes was looking through recent "bitcoin-core" pull requests, found many integration testing scripts
ben_vulpes: looks like the shitgnomes have been working overtime to address my complaints.
ben_vulpes is amused, but not honored. if ye'd only had actual management once upon a time, this'd not be a notable achievement.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell gavinandresen ^^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985338 < I think this is what he was talking about (nVersion)
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 02:48:11; Luke-Jr: it can't, if you don't have the 0.8.1 hardfork patched in..
decimation: err, no that was the bdb lock thing
mod6: ok mp says he can see signing that statement ben_vulpes. go ahead, he'll even sign later when he gets on his other box.
mod6: fire at will.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985356 << this still hurts, every time i see it
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 02:59:30; mod6: it was selected because "reasons"
asciilifeform: '...let the motherfucker burn'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33267 @ 0.00052134 = 17.3434 BTC [+]
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> << this still hurts, every time i see it << awe!
ben_vulpes: ah fml
mod6: whatup?
ben_vulpes: deedbot wru
ben_vulpes: trinque: whar deedbot
decimation: where did this consensus shit enter into the code base?
mod6: anyway, you think i should have just called him out instead of saying "reasons"?
mod6: or what hurts?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84850 @ 0.00052155 = 44.2535 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: "reasons" being that i wrote a blog post saying "i don't think much happened after this"
mod6: ah...
mod6: yeah, i should have just pointed him to your blog.
mod6: my bad.
mod6: lol
ben_vulpes: those hafta be the 2 derpiest typos of my life.
ben_vulpes: anyways
trinque: awaken.
trinque: ben_vulpes: ^
trinque: ben_vulpes: guess what else I'll be rewriting in cl at some point.
trinque: the golang part gets into some dumb state where it wont reconnect.
deedbot-: accepted: 1
decimation: at any rate this whole rejection machine can be permanantly jammed by setting nversion to MAX_INT
deedbot-: accepted: 1
decimation: I'm fairly certain that if 0.5.3.1 were used to mine a block with nVerion=1 it would be rejected
decimation: as more than 950 blocks have passed since the first instance of the IsSuperMajority machine being used
mod6: thanks ben_vulpes
mod6: i put it out there on derp-media too
decimation: I would also note that the bitcoind github commits and comments lie about the IsSuperMajority machine. They say that the mandatory rejection won't take effect until 95% of the blocks are incremented - but in fact it's only 950
decimation: 950 out of the last 1000 blocks
decimation: hardly 'consensus' in view of the 363000 block history of bitcoin
decimation: which amounts to one week of 'voting window'
decimation: one week out of years of doing things a certain way
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16414 @ 0.0005214 = 8.5583 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Use CTransaction/CBlock version numbers for smoother upgrades by gavinandresen · Pull Request #1525 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1LNKrVq )
assbot: Transition to requiring block height in block coinbases by gavinandresen · Pull Request #1526 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1LNKrVs )
decimation: which would have been released in 0.7rc1 roughly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51000 @ 0.0005145 = 26.2395 BTC [-] {3}
midnightmagic: decimation: 1000 blocks is a couple percent of all work done ever on the entire blockchain since inception, and the current hashrate could rewrite the entire history up to something like august 2014 in somewhere close to the span of time that non-vote took place over, times a very small number. :( unfortunately.
ben_vulpes: oh look
decimation: this machine is braindamaged in my opinion
ben_vulpes: a midnightmagic
decimation: at any rate, it's not like you couldn't jam it by changing nversion to an arbitrary value
ben_vulpes: decimation: srsly.
ben_vulpes: magic numbers and magic thinking.
decimation: to spite, you could even pick a value between 4 and MAX_INT randomly
ben_vulpes: another value for derpfiguration.
ben_vulpes: euhue
midnightmagic: i'm just saying that it sounds like a little bit in comparison to both time, and integerial block height, but actual work-wise it a significant chunk. again, very unfortunately.
phf: ha, stator build on openbsd i386
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: this is a basic feature of integrals and curves.
ben_vulpes: lol 'integerial'
decimation: midnightmagic: the "amount of work" argument utterly fails to impress
decimation: also, it's probably not going to be true in a year or two as 14 nm asics fan out and become barely economic
midnightmagic: that is the inverse of what will happen as more-efficient mining equipment arrives.
decimation: also, your argument would also be true if nMajorityWindow=10000 or 100000
ben_vulpes: decimation is ready to bet against diff increases?
decimation: I think it's likely to level out in the coming year or two, maybe longer
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic is ready to work more student exercises?
decimation: unless someone can tell me exactly how they are going to 'get efficient'
ben_vulpes: efficiency is not a prerequisite for fab runs.
decimation: no, but it is for profitability in the face of non-zero electric rates
ben_vulpes: since when has midnightmagic's employer given a shit about profitability?
midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: #trollfail. That sort of thing doesn't work on me, especially when it comes from someone like you.
ben_vulpes: lol and yet you bit
midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: You would call a bite any response. That is the fundamental nature of #trollfail.
ben_vulpes: y'ever hear the line: "don't feed the trolls"?
midnightmagic: Regardless, a 1000-block window is not unreasonable if one accepts that mining hashpower is the vote that counts.
decimation: I don't accept it.
decimation: nor does this argument hold for 1000, because the same argument can be made for 50000
ben_vulpes: i don't accept it either.
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: you make this mistake of letting the plants control the conversation. "what's the right magic number of blocks to signal fork acceptance?" answer: there isn't. there is only the long-term behavior of the network.
midnightmagic: Correct. I am saying your complaint about it being unreasonable is illogical by any measure of the mining work done: there *is* no other meaningful window, or measurement, of the bitcoin network without shifting to PoS or DPoS. But if you want to do that, fork bitshares.
ben_vulpes: this moronic 'acceptance-in-blockchain' algo doesn't work, because hashpower can revert and rewrite an arbitrarily-lengthed blockchain.
midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: On that at least, we agree. I agree with that: the current hashrate is as illegitimate as a vote of private keys would be in determining a softfork. What else is there?
ben_vulpes: 's just no window.
ben_vulpes: there's* just no window.
ben_vulpes: just the network. that, only that, no more, no less.
midnightmagic: Thus, backing up further, there is the legitimacy of BIP66 at all. If it is not legitimate, we have a consensus code failure every time openssl decides they want to change behaviour.
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: art thou familiar with the 1.0.1g issue?
decimation: you are subjugating human judgement to unthinking machinery - this can never be reasonable
ben_vulpes: openssl changed behavior. bitcoin did not.
decimation: midnightmagic: who is holding a gun to your head, requiring you to update openssl?
midnightmagic: I'm familiar with the DER-encoding change they made, and I'm aware of, if not familiar with, every major bug in openssl since 2001 or so. Could I draw a line between releases that had bugs and releases that fixed them? No. Not even close.
decimation: why isn't anyone seriously attempting to extract the open-ssl code paths used by bitcoin?
ben_vulpes: bitcoind's built with openssl versions after 1.0.1g don't sync.
ben_vulpes: this, i gather, is news to you.
ben_vulpes: bitcoinds*
midnightmagic: decimation: Nobody, of course. Then we go back to static builds and what happens when an actual bug hits and the fork is so old that the fix doesn't backport? How divergent are we willing to accept?
midnightmagic: lol. No, it's not news to me. Yes, I already knew that.
decimation: midnightmagic: the cure to that problem is not forcing changes of an uncertain nature, but to gain certainty in the codebase
decimation: why wouldn't we want a static bitcoind that is correct for all time?
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: you were probably just on the cusp of killing hitler too.
ben_vulpes: <decimation> why wouldn't we want a static bitcoind that is correct for all time? << we do. midnightmagic does not.
midnightmagic: well, then we have the forking risk I mentioned above: what happens when the openssl people make a fix or the internet finds a bug in the component that we depend on? If we sit on 0.9.8 or whatever the version was before those idiots got their hands on it and started adding malicious exploits, what happens?
decimation: understand the code, make sure it doesn't happen
decimation: pretending like others are there to solve your problems seems like a poor approach
midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: You can keep guessing what I mean without actually asking me, but you're no less wrong.
ben_vulpes: decimation: no but you see we need to slurp the spitoon because if we don't something terrifying that we can't reason about won't happen!
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: no less wrong than what now?
midnightmagic: I'm not pretending that; I'm explicitly saying, divergence implies there is no reason to even *use* openssl at that point. strip out the components, use them, skip openssl entirely, and, I guess, trust in your ability to monitor the progenitor of your codebase for bugs that *explicitly affect your consensus-critical code*.
decimation: agreed, except "consenus-critical" means "compatible with what satoshi wrote" in my book
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 159666 @ 0.00052679 = 84.1105 BTC [+] {5}
midnightmagic: or, do what sipa did and write a secp256k1 lib because the openssl people don't give a shit they're wrecking dependencies.
midnightmagic: because, like I said, I think some people in there appear to be adding exploitable code with absurd frequency.
decimation: again, nobody is forcing anybody use a version of openssl they don't want to use.
midnightmagic: ehh. satoshi's code, bugs and all. we could also stick with bdb and accept the quirks like the old accidental fork post-leveldb.
midnightmagic: .. which appears to have been a gavin/hearn originated bug.
ben_vulpes: it's all well and good to say "strip out the components", i just don't buy that that's possible.
decimation: his code sucks, I don't deny, but it's the closest thing to a spec that we have
decimation: start there and iterate the code toward perfection
decimation: ideally, writing a damn spec first
midnightmagic: it's all a question of how much you trust your ability to make code that converges on consensus. are you so awesome you can either sit on an old openssl, or write your own replacements? are you so godlike you can write testcases for every corner-case, bugs and all? I know I'm not. Maybe you guys are. I dunno.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69387 @ 0.00053112 = 36.8528 BTC [+] {2}
midnightmagic: Say, why did you guys stop openly calling out Gavin and Hearn anyway?
decimation: gavin is mentioned on here from time to time
midnightmagic: Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come?
decimation: !s usgavin
assbot: 43 results for 'usgavin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=usgavin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126663 @ 0.00053379 = 67.6114 BTC [+] {5}
midnightmagic: Yeah, I mean aside from the grumbling in here which nobody but people *in here* seems to read.
midnightmagic: For a while you were writing reddit posts and qntra articles and all sorts of stuff. Half the time you got Gavin himself "derping" as you put it, in your comments.
decimation: well, it wasn't me doing any of this stuff
midnightmagic: Or coming in here and randomly arguing with you.
decimation: he did a few times, rather unimpressively
ben_vulpes: <midnightmagic> Yeah, I mean aside from the grumbling in here which nobody but people *in here* seems to read. << how could you possible know
ben_vulpes: possibly*
ben_vulpes: <midnightmagic> Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come? << hipsters always move on, boss
midnightmagic: Unless you are implying people outside the bitcoin world are voracious readers of the -ass logs, as far as I can tell in all the articles, reddit posts, twitter feeds, etc, I don't see more than a passing mention. But even if that weren't so, really I'm a little disappointed the wind all went out of your sails, as it were.
ben_vulpes: 6/10 #spergytrollfail
decimation: I don't really read reddit or twitter, but I recall that gavin captiulated, more or less
midnightmagic: And here they are, going on little half-drunken joke-rants about how maybe they should just remove everyone else's commit access and unilaterally take control again.
decimation: who where is?
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: reddit? twitter? d'you want to roll medium and perhaps bitcointalk.org into that as well?
midnightmagic: You guys *heads* were exploding in here, and then when "the rest" of the bitcoin-core devs took up the flag you all went quiet again. wtf?
ben_vulpes: for a grand coup of shit-as-what-don't-matter?
ben_vulpes: so we won, and you want to 3/10 troll on the topic?
midnightmagic: I presumed your head would explode if I mentioned forbes (due to its primary bitcoin author being a douchebag), or mainstream media.
midnightmagic: He didn't capitulate.
ben_vulpes: *derpboom*
trinque: gcovr outputs a nice html version of the gcov output
trinque: gonna let this run for a while, then I'll share the results
midnightmagic: What? He's pushing his BIP and pullreq, and Hearn is busy doing pullreqs which he knows doesn't have a chance of making it.
decimation: if bitcoin core devs agree with what people here are writing, why don't they venture here to make their case?
midnightmagic: .. why would they do that?
ben_vulpes: moreover, if the decisions made here trickle down to "bitcoin core", why should we pursue them further?
decimation: umm, why would we give a shit about what they are saying otherwise? I donno bro, you're the one accusing here.
midnightmagic: Besides, you went quiet well before he "capitulated".
ben_vulpes: why bang on about points that are already settled?
midnightmagic: I guess that answers my question.
midnightmagic: fair enough.
decimation: all I can say, for myself, is that folks write stuff on this channel, I would read; comment - as would others
midnightmagic: I grok.
decimation: with respect to bip 66 in particular, it's not a terrible idea, but it strikes me as backwards
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: re #trollfail it's supposed to be lighthearted elbows-in-ribs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36350 @ 0.00053547 = 19.4643 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: why not solidify the questionable openssl code first, before lightly restricting certain signature forms?
midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: Dude man, with the shit you guys say in here, I have no idea when you're ribbing someone, or promising a spear in the gut. :(
ben_vulpes: you're not in line for a stake
decimation: at least you show up, comment
ben_vulpes: myeah
ben_vulpes: conflict is productive!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64050 @ 0.00053567 = 34.3097 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: anyways, chickens run around with their heads cut off for minutes. what of it? they still lost to the butcher.
ben_vulpes: <midnightmagic> ben_vulpes: Dude man, with the shit you guys say in here, I have no idea when you're ribbing someone, or promising a spear in the gut. :( << the ambiguity has to be completely intolerable
midnightmagic: Maybe my appraisal is just wrong. Could be. Seems to me they're just taking a breather to set up the schism.
decimation: 'they' being gavin et al?
midnightmagic: Yeah, Gavin/Hearn.
midnightmagic: The Satoshi-Halo-Wearers.
decimation: yes. ultimately this is war, and we have a strategy
thestringpuller: oh did i come back for drama?
ben_vulpes: nah we seem to have defused the antagonism for now
midnightmagic: thestringpuller: not at all, I mainly wanted to know why you all were being so quiet lately. :-P
ben_vulpes: quiet!?
ben_vulpes: dumpblock, eatblock, exposure of the ancient blockchain is quiet now?
ben_vulpes: i thought you said you were reading logs!?
decimation: midnightmagic: yeah actually we are mostly focusing on building a working, sane bitcoind
thestringpuller: midnightmagic: cause I fucked up my shoulder being on the computer all day at work so I read comic books instead after work.
midnightmagic: Yes, I saw all that. I mean *outwardly* quiet.
decimation: I think there's a general ambivalence about what bitcoin-devs want or do
thestringpuller: midnightmagic: there really isn't news. just gavin/hearn having a temper tantrum like a little kid because they want more subsidies for poor people.
thestringpuller: midnightmagic: also mircea_popescu 's series on the subject (http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/) outlines and details the idiocy of every redditard comment that was, is, and will be on the subject
decimation: at any rate, I'm going to sleep, I'm sure others will comment tomorrow on this discussion.
ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: that's some wack ass disingenuous shit. you jumped in on the n block consensus line.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10788 @ 0.00053569 = 5.779 BTC [+]
midnightmagic: Just trying to be polite.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115612 @ 0.00053634 = 62.0073 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186287 << co2. still the best solution in any perspective.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 01:14:46; asciilifeform: (virgin tears? vodka ?)
trinque: asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mod6: http://bot.deedbot.org/stator-gcov/ << here's what my gcov run looks like so far. 135k
trinque: nice way to read the source
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 02:07:07; DanyAlos: I was looking for #bitcoin-assets on this search engine (http://irc.netsplit.de/channels), and realized that it is not listed. Is there any particular reason for not being there?
mircea_popescu: currently the cannonical b-a log service is http://log.bitcoin-assets.com
assbot: #bitcoin-assets log ... ( http://bit.ly/1NFAqb1 )
mircea_popescu: (an important point about co2 extinguishers is that they also cool when deployed. this effect is significant. heavier gases - not so much)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186358 << also touched upon in here a few times. definitely the right way to do this.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 02:46:46; asciilifeform: what i think would be considerably more useful is a provision for 'programmable checkpoints'
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186389 << for a long time in 2012/2013 there were "gencoin only" miners, at the peak doing like 15% ish of total hashing
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 03:04:15; asciilifeform: but it would stand to reason that miners will eventually exert more tx fee pressure
mircea_popescu: no txn included.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60112 @ 0.00053707 = 32.2844 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21038 @ 0.00053837 = 11.3262 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186697 << i dun think it does anything useful ; on the other hand it doesn't do anything whatsoever that wasn't either already done, or as good as already done. but whatever, let the flies buzzing in front of the truck get their fly trophies for opening the road to trucks.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:47:46; decimation: I would say that on its face, bip66 isn't such a terrible idea
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, being critted for > 9k ironies over something like this is beyond comedic.
mircea_popescu: fitting for the empire of stupid, but still.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:47:58; trinque: http://dpaste.com/2KR17VF.txt << btcd log of 2015/07/03 fork
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186723 << it has historically proven to have been a massive mistake, perhaps the largest mistake on record, that people in the early f/oss made to argue on supposed technical merits and play-pretend the "impartial scientists".
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:51:34; asciilifeform: (for as long as it carries under 'technical', the weasels can whine, wheedle, emit 'reasonable reasonings', even persuade the persuadable)
mircea_popescu: i believe the lesson was learned.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186772 << and watch the PR implementation crash and burn over division by negative zero and things.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 05:13:46; decimation: at any rate this whole rejection machine can be permanantly jammed by setting nversion to MAX_INT
mircea_popescu: but at any rate : setting the "nversion" to maxint has at least the important symbolic significance of saying "this is the last version".
mircea_popescu: which may be a valuable thing.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186780 << this is true, but broadly uninteresting.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 05:26:45; decimation: I would also note that the bitcoind github commits and comments lie about the IsSuperMajority machine. They say that the mandatory rejection won't take effect until 95% of the blocks are incremented - but in fact it's only 950
mircea_popescu: i mean, other than painting the picture of the vermin in unflattering tones, which it does. in the field it can do precisely jack.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186807 << more efficient mining equipment is not really happening past this point.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 05:54:09; midnightmagic: that is the inverse of what will happen as more-efficient mining equipment arrives.
mircea_popescu: certainly nothing like we've seen to date.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:06:14; midnightmagic: I'm familiar with the DER-encoding change they made, and I'm aware of, if not familiar with, every major bug in openssl since 2001 or so. Could I draw a line between releases that had bugs and releases that fixed them? No. Not even close.
mircea_popescu: pure spaghetti mess, wherein no soul can tell where the pasta ends and the cook's hairs begin
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186837 << for the same reason no one's attempting any other flavour of serious works anywhere in the decaying west, on any topic, for any reason. too busy posturing in front of things.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:06:56; decimation: why isn't anyone seriously attempting to extract the open-ssl code paths used by bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: an exquisitely african thing this, as late as 2000 one could notice that all the egyptians seem willing to do is stand in front of the pyramids with their chests pushed out, or else gesturing importantly. meanwhile... the people who built those things don't look anything like the arab mongrels currently populating the place, if extant statues are to be believed.
mircea_popescu: similarly is the case of "americans".
mircea_popescu: whose great-grand parents noticed, while taking the upper-middle class mandatory "tour of europe", that the italians similarly etc etc.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186847 << while this problem exists, i think the case that it is strictly preferable to attempt building a functional system than to bemoan one's fate of having been born to parents this poor, stupid and useless needs not be further pressed.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:11:21; midnightmagic: well, then we have the forking risk I mentioned above: what happens when the openssl people make a fix or the internet finds a bug in the component that we depend on? If we sit on 0.9.8 or whatever the version was before those idiots got their hands on it and started adding malicious exploits, what happens?
midnightmagic: Almost like a sort of mass-ennui/retirement mentality. Tired of working for something they don't believe in anymore.
mircea_popescu: it is in point of fact better to have a static build that specifically ennumerates blocks prior to height X and then proceeds from there, than to have the present situation.
mircea_popescu: and that's 40 gb's worth of magic number.
midnightmagic: I meant to suggest that the amount of effort of doing it oneself compared with the projected risk of it happening while someone else is working on it.. which option is less expensive/reliable?
midnightmagic: And sipa, it seems, agrees with you, hence the existence of libsecpblah
mircea_popescu: you familiar with my observation re alf's "folk with brains are useless - they want to use the brains" that in terms of "optimal impact", you're always better off waiting ?
midnightmagic: No, but I do know for a fact that procrastination has saved my life at least six or seven times. :)
mircea_popescu: this is not actually a rational reason to wait.
mircea_popescu: sure, so it has. mine too.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186854 << it's a complex mess. satoshi generally wrote stuff that didn't actually work for the intended purpose. it is very far from inconceivable we shall in a year discover a fundamental bug in any of a dozen dozens different essential components.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:13:58; decimation: agreed, except "consenus-critical" means "compatible with what satoshi wrote" in my book
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186857 << not just there. which is why the entire signed patches business.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:14:44; midnightmagic: because, like I said, I think some people in there appear to be adding exploitable code with absurd frequency.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:18:37; midnightmagic: it's all a question of how much you trust your ability to make code that converges on consensus. are you so awesome you can either sit on an old openssl, or write your own replacements? are you so godlike you can write testcases for every corner-case, bugs and all? I know I'm not. Maybe you guys are. I dunno.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186869 << this is where policy is set, not followed.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:19:59; midnightmagic: Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186881 lmao "hey guise, everyone is now playing to your tune, what do you mean everyone's playing to your tune ?!?!?! so sad to see wind out of your sails as everyone's playing to your tune!!!"
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:24:27; midnightmagic: Unless you are implying people outside the bitcoin world are voracious readers of the -ass logs, as far as I can tell in all the articles, reddit posts, twitter feeds, etc, I don't see more than a passing mention. But even if that weren't so, really I'm a little disappointed the wind all went out of your sails, as it were.
mircea_popescu: what are you, on vitamins ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186909 << have you looked into that thing, god help you ?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:33:28; decimation: why not solidify the questionable openssl code first, before lightly restricting certain signature forms?
mircea_popescu: it's a complete re-write. ask anyone.
midnightmagic: :-P No, just wondering why you think anyone else is more capable than you are at ensuring a value-destroying fork doesn't happen.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:38:25; midnightmagic: The Satoshi-Halo-Wearers.
midnightmagic: He is while he's riding around on Gavin's back. The Halo's right there above him.
mircea_popescu: i think what ? how is this even a problem ?
mircea_popescu: in this sense the halo's about as stretched as gavin's mother.
midnightmagic: You "set the policy" and then stopped.
mircea_popescu: stopped what ?
midnightmagic: Externally combating a blocksize increase with articles, comments, and discussion external to -ass.
mircea_popescu: why ? point's well made, everyone's happy to be part of bitcoin by standing on borrowed intelligence. let them.
mircea_popescu: next time they'll need some they... ahem... won't read b-a logs etc once more.
midnightmagic: Because they haven't stopped yet. Hearn's submitting pullreqs he's going to use as propaganda to push people to -XT, and Gavin's going through the bip/pullreq motions when he knows he's going to be voted down. Again.
mircea_popescu: and lawsky's going around trying to scam people like a resurected antonopopo derpopopop.
midnightmagic: "Miners, merchants, and exchanges," all agree with him. Supposedly.
mircea_popescu: any idea how long the list is ? even nefario is making the occasional reappearance.
mircea_popescu: yes yes.
mircea_popescu: every bum drunk has a story of greatness. go, listen. care.
midnightmagic: What? Nefario is back?! His huge black eyes all healed up?!
mircea_popescu: eh, they nibble discreetely at teh periphery.
midnightmagic: Lawsky.. name sounds familiar.
midnightmagic: oh, the litlicence guy.
mircea_popescu: heck, kenna and the armandi fellow are prolly due for a novel attempt too
mircea_popescu: the legions of hell are truely an infinite headcount. why do you care so much about some particular schmucks in the chorus ? why not that tv scammer dude while you're at it, what was his name
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00052491 = 14.9599 BTC [-] {2}
midnightmagic: Dude wears the Halo. The other scammers don't matter so much. And if I really cared, I'd be doing something other than flicking out belly button lint in the shower. I'm just curious to know why *you guys* stopped.
mircea_popescu: he only wears the halo ~to you~. because you're a particular sort of inner build, and because you ate a particular diet.
mircea_popescu: your experiences and inner life are not nearly as universal as you imagine before you examine it.
midnightmagic: No, not to me. He wears the halo that makes large audiences cheer for him instead of throwing spitballs, when he says he should revoke everyone's commit access and be a dictator.
mircea_popescu: to most everyone else, gavin's just another washed up website designer with a great story from five years ago.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like how rassah bought a car or some guy bought a pizza.
mircea_popescu: "dude i could have been so rich and important".
midnightmagic: Nobody wears a halo to me. Well. Maybe Grigori Perelman..
mircea_popescu: yeah, sure. no shortage.
mircea_popescu: "and then we came THIS CLOSE to selling out to amazon for 5 trtillion"
mircea_popescu: go hang out in sf, see how often this comes up.
mircea_popescu: anyways. my 2c.
midnightmagic: (but Perelman's a safe bet because he's a recluse and there's no possibility of that image ever being shattered)
mircea_popescu: he's still alive. never trust the living. for all you know he ends up like donald trump, doing reality shows in his 70s
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00051343 = 30.4464 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30341 @ 0.0005312 = 16.1171 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25159 @ 0.00053427 = 13.4417 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16351 @ 0.00052446 = 8.5754 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45400 @ 0.00053618 = 24.3426 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.0005281 = 29.468 BTC [-]
punkman: so... did the DER chain lose the race?
punkman: I just started a stator patched to not skip VerifySignature, wonder if it'll work this time
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51900 @ 0.00053626 = 27.8319 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Acrophobia ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0g322 )
punkman: next one was good too http://oglaf.com/rangerron/
assbot: Ranger Ron's Wilderness survival guide ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0gc5I )
assbot: Some Miners Generating Invalid Blocks ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaUyaC )
mircea_popescu: see logs mebbe ?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:30:43; mircea_popescu: Uh oh all these block explorers just flipped over to the invalid chain:
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55900 @ 0.00053217 = 29.7483 BTC [-]
kakobrekla caught up
kakobrekla: so we are stuck on v3 now.
shinohai: I'm at 254300 this morning, yay
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:33:37; mod6: shinohai: is your v0.5.3.1-RELEASE node up to dayte?
assbot: XSA-135 - Xen Security Advisories ... ( http://bit.ly/1KAf28N )
punkman: "We are using 10.2 but got this message anyway: "Your node software is out of date and may accept an invalid blockchain fork. Do not trust confirmation."" "There was a mistake made and an alert that showed up on v0.10.2 was sent out accidentally; should be now fixed."
mircea_popescu: oh a mistake ? aww.
punkman: petertodd's answer ^
punkman: lukejr: "Sorry, accident, ignore."
punkman: petertodd: "Honestly I was half-expecting this to happen, and was actually busy writing up a warning for SPV wallets users when this issue came up."
shinohai: http://redd.it/3c305f <<< whelp can't trust my 0.5.3 node /s
assbot: If you are using any wallet other than Bitcoin Core 0.10.x or 0.9.5 (or something backed by one of those versions), then you should not trust incoming transactions until they have ~30 confirmations. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0jGVG )
kakobrekla: so if nothing else, cpu mining code needs to be updated in the ref implementation now or what
mircea_popescu: honestly i fully expect fail to "happen"
mircea_popescu: i thought reddit went private.
punkman: cpu mining code probably needs more than a couple fixes
kakobrekla: or does it need to work only on alpha centauri?
kakobrekla: or should i say only not-earth
mircea_popescu: check out all the miners that were mining off thin air, incidentally. because the bandwidth doubled so much.
kakobrekla: fees not large enough to offset the finite speed of light
shinohai: It appears f2p pool "almost" mined them out xD
mircea_popescu: quantum computing will solve this.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36150 @ 0.00052768 = 19.0756 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37849 @ 0.00052533 = 19.8832 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: in other news, stator (with openssl1.0.1g) patched to not skip VerifySignature, has not barfed up to block 146k (previous attempt barfed earlier than that)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143250 @ 0.00051227 = 73.3827 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: New Bitcoin vulnerability: A transaction that takes at least 3 minutes to verify ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD6BHo )
assbot: Florida teacher who had sex with three teens sentenced to 22 years in prison | myfox8.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD6N9w )
punkman: "Two other male students, both also 17 years old, came forward as victims after Fichter was arrested." << lol assholes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37400 @ 0.00050978 = 19.0658 BTC [-]
assbot: Teacher, accused of threesome with student, avoids jail time; posts gleeful pic to Instagram | myfox8.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD738B )
shinohai: 22 years, srsly ?
cazalla: tbh at 17 i think i would've been willing to do 22 years to fuck my english teacher
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8034 @ 0.00050978 = 4.0956 BTC [-]
shinohai: I always wanted to fuck my math teacher. She was smokin'
cazalla: now and then i've thought of the few teacher's aids that would come for a school term as part of their studies.. they were so young and pretty but would be old bags now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58519 @ 0.00050549 = 29.5808 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.0005057 = 7.3327 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66800 @ 0.00050579 = 33.7868 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12091 @ 0.00051471 = 6.2234 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5909 @ 0.00052578 = 3.1068 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25303 @ 0.00050549 = 12.7904 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11639 @ 0.00050549 = 5.8834 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32411 @ 0.000505 = 16.3676 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71600 @ 0.000505 = 36.158 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.000505 = 5.555 BTC [-]
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1IXhgsV )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90650 @ 0.00050402 = 45.6894 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 136900 @ 0.00052845 = 72.3448 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143014 @ 0.00050724 = 72.5424 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2732 @ 0.00053217 = 1.4539 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: my sync is almost at axe-time...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20250 @ 0.00053628 = 10.8597 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 07:21:18; mircea_popescu: but at any rate : setting the "nversion" to maxint has at least the important symbolic significance of saying "this is the last version".
asciilifeform: and from general principle, there is no reason ~not~ to make life maximally difficult for the enemy if this costs us nothing
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 10:56:06; kakobrekla: so we are stuck on v3 now.
asciilifeform: the buggers like to monkey with versioning? fine - let's nail their ears to their heads.
asciilifeform: 363673... almost there
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186991 << nah, more practically, a few dozen MB (sha512 sums)
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 07:33:02; mircea_popescu: and that's 40 gb's worth of magic number.
asciilifeform: ... and now i'm synced with mircea_popescu.
shinohai: congrats, I am still about 167k or so
shinohai: *267k
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.00053628 = 10.2698 BTC [+]
punkman: no-verifysig-skipping stator reached 169k, so I'm gonnna call this a success for now.
asciilifeform: somebody last night had problem building stator:
asciilifeform: i did learn that many linux distros lack 'realpath'
asciilifeform: which is used in the script
punkman: maybe we should add a .conf option that lets whoever really wants it to skip VerifySig between checkpoints
asciilifeform: as temporary workaround, replace the realpath thing (whole right side of equal sign) with the absolute path of 'ourlibs'
punkman: yeah that's what I did
asciilifeform: aha neat.
punkman: asciilifeform: what do you think about making no-verifysig-skip the default for next release?
asciilifeform: can't think of any reason not to
punkman: as it is 0.5.3.1/0.5.4 versions will accept blocks of version 1 and 2, allowing shitgnomes to induce forks. what's gonna happen with this?
punkman: (can be combined with very-slow-to-verify block for bonus points)
punkman: sig op parallelism would help in that regard
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00053639 = 4.8275 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1980 @ 0.00053639 = 1.0621 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: http://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-program-discussion/1169541-2-police-detectives-house-cyber-crime-yesterday-post20514733.html >> They said tax information and records were continually being pulled. They kept asking me questions about bitcoin, blah blah blah.
assbot: 2 police detectives showed up to my house for cyber crime yesterday. - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum ... ( http://bit.ly/1UlYt3p )
mod6: my stator is @ 281k
asciilifeform: 'nd that they sell over 30k student emails for $20, which I had bought;' << l337 sp4mz0r ?
phf: so stator builds and syncs on openbsd 5.6 i386
phf: OpenBSD 5.6 GENERIC#274 i386; -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5.0M Jul 4 02:34 bitcoind; bitcoind: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1, for OpenBSD, statically linked, stripped
asciilifeform: phf: you may be the first to achieve openbsd build! consider posting recipe
phf: i had to make some minor changes http://paste.lisp.org/display/151074
asciilifeform: send it to the ml ?
phf: asciilifeform: it pretty much builds out of the box. the only tricky part is the " -Wl,--whole-archive -lpthread -Wl,--no-whole-archive" business
phf: apparently gcc doesn't always include all the necessary pthread bits (not just openbsd but other unixes), which results in segfault on launch
asciilifeform: good work phf
punkman: 30k student email list? I scraped like 5mil for leet sv startup last year.
phf: asciilifeform: i have a small backlog of things i want to send to the list, i'll wrap it up sometime over the weekend
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i built stator on dulap just now. unchanged from public recipe other than the 'realpath' thing (mentioned earlier.) same process ought to work on your other centos boxes. it will run as a public node as soon as i shove a blockchain in there.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: has anybody as of this moment received a block past 363734 from mircea_popescu's node ?
punkman: heh "I shook hands with the man I did most of the talking with and they took off... I was a little shooken up but realized I made a big mistake! I forgot to shake the black police detective's hand... shit!!! "
williamdunne has a mailing list of 13,000 bitcoiners
asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: the miners ~are~ zombies
mod6: <+asciilifeform> phf: you may be the first to achieve openbsd build! consider posting recipe << please do!
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu any of your nodes past 363734 at this time ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mod6: <+phf> apparently gcc doesn't always include all the necessary pthread bits (not just openbsd but other unixes), which results in segfault on launch << on my obsd 5.6 on x86-64 that's the same problem i kept running into; segfault at execution time.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> has anybody as of this moment received a block past 363734 from mircea_popescu's node ? << im a day a way or so yet
mod6: *away
mod6: height=281810
asciilifeform: mod6: i've been synced for ~1hour and it looks like it's firmly stuck there
asciilifeform: (not a connectivity problem - i'm getting mempoolisms just fine)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24100 @ 0.00053639 = 12.927 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: my 0.7.2 node is at height=363815
mod6: thx for posting dpb
danielpbarron: the one stuck at 36 is not limited to one seed, but it is running 0.5.3.1ish on a pogo with archlinux
danielpbarron: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1108304.0 >> F2Pool is building on a wrong side and there is fake confirmation since block 363731. (EDIT: the bogus chain of 363731 is already orphaned and not relevant to normal users)
assbot: Blockchain split of 4 July 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1LKzxPt )
asciilifeform out to meatspace for most of the remaining day
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00053732 = 2.2567 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 203404 @ 0.0005391 = 109.6551 BTC [+] {4}
trinque: I am seeing a bunch of ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() in my stator run
punkman: trinque: what does it say after "AcceptToMemoryPool()"
assbot: A Random Ass Kicking of Wall Street | Following the Trend ... ( http://bit.ly/1LKBFH4 )
williamdunne: PRNGs selecting 50 random stocks each month from S&P 500 vs S&P 500 index:
trinque: williamdunne: I tend to take stock market prices as inflation indicators these days
trinque: I'm sure they used to mean something else, but we're in bizarro land where the length of a meter changes day to day
williamdunne: I'm not going to disagree with you completely, but I do still believe that S&P500 beats inflation by a couple of percent
williamdunne: Which still leaves room over official rates
trinque: yeah, I'm being hyperbolic
trinque: well, matters how you measure inflation too
trinque wanders in search of coffee
williamdunne: True, some things are deflationary too, dependent on how you measure 'em
fluffypony: is that a post-coital penis joke?
trinque: you have to measure inflation from the balls!
punkman: trinque: I think that's to be expected with orphanage amputations. I have those and also plenty of "ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : nonstandard transaction type"
trinque: ah ok
williamdunne: fluffypony: Yes, well spotted
williamdunne: trinque: I always measured from my asshole, am I doing something wrong?
trinque: williamdunne: no one can tell you where your dick begins and ends... this is AMERICA!
williamdunne: Wooo, now I get to brag about my 3 inch glory!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00053612 = 10.6152 BTC [-] {2}
danielpbarron: !up sergiohlb
shinohai: Height=273952 :/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51717 @ 0.00054114 = 27.9861 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: lol, that's actually true that dick continues deeper in the body
mod6: shinohai: is that with your v0.5.3.1-RELEASE node?
shinohai: @ mod6 yes, other one still not built yet
mod6: ah ok thanks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61337 @ 0.00054139 = 33.2072 BTC [+]
williamdunne: jurov: Quite a bit further IIRC
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186869 << it's not unlike my approach to Christianity -- most everyone already believes in the nice sounding bits, so why should I bother talking about them? I stick to the parts of the message that are not popular
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 06:19:59; midnightmagic: Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38350 @ 0.00054139 = 20.7623 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36083 @ 0.00053589 = 19.3365 BTC [-]
shinohai: @ danielpbarron I like table-flipping Jesus best.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68550 @ 0.00054113 = 37.0945 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47200 @ 0.00054139 = 25.5536 BTC [+]
trinque: shinohai: same
trinque: with the whip iirc
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72200 @ 0.00054139 = 39.0884 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30400 @ 0.00054147 = 16.4607 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the dispute was 730/736
trinque: mircea_popescu: is your node down?
trinque: getting connection refused
mircea_popescu: ima look into it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00054188 = 18.5323 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: trinque i dun see anything
punkman: ^ works here
trinque: I got connection refused starting at 07/04/15 20:02:12 UTC
trinque: came back at 07/04/15 20:09:46
trinque shrugs
trinque: ass-goblins in the intertubes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : "Reorg!
mircea_popescu: Cut 6 start 000000000000000006a3 end 000000000000000013fe
mircea_popescu: Add 7 start 000000000000000006a3 end 0000000000000000014e"
mircea_popescu: they should. eventually.
mircea_popescu: fork's only been actually resolved a few hours ago.
assbot: Shout out to the American Core Devs that are spending their 4th ensuring the health of the blockchain : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1TcE1R7 )
trinque: pfff
trinque: speaking of which, I'm adding the coverage flag to the deps too, and will regen that gcovr html thereafter
trinque: I was surprised to find that bitcoin doesn't actually look that *big* compared to other C++ projects I've seen
trinque: just... messy
trinque: it'll be neat to see for example how much of boost or openssl is actually used
trinque: might be able to just rip those bits off from the dep, then cut off the dep
jurov: !s openssl monkeys
assbot: 1 results for 'openssl monkeys' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=openssl+monkeys
punkman: you can't cut off boost
jurov: trinque and anyone other: mandatory reading
trinque: jurov: hyper-lol
trinque: punkman: whysat
trinque: too interconnected?
punkman: you'll just have to reimplement everything
trinque: but what's "everything"?
trinque: 2% of boost?
trinque: it'd be boost's interconnectedness that might prevent it, maybe
trinque: anyhow this is what I wanna see with the gcov thing
assbot: Logged on 15-02-2015 22:34:28; asciilifeform: 2) tearing out 'boost' while keeping the project in cpp will turn it into an unreadable morass of crud that makes the existing turd look like the finest sausage
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60200 @ 0.00054492 = 32.8042 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: trinque, asciilifeform, wimc : if client fails to progress past 363736, the likely culprit is the db locks limit. look in derp.log (assuming standard derp) for "REORGANIZE\nREORGANIZE: Disconnect 6 blocks; 000000000000000006a3..000000000000000013fe\nREORGANIZE: Connect 7 blocks; 000000000000000006a3..0000000000000000014e\n\n\n************************\nEXCEPTION: 11DbException\nDb::get: Cannot allocate memory\nbitcoin i
mircea_popescu: n ProcessMessage()\n\nProcessMessage(block, 947244 bytes) FAILED\n" which is the confirmation. then increase the number o' locks.
trinque: k, ty
mircea_popescu: alternatively, feed it the last few blocks through the mechanism discussed that alf created recently i guess.
mircea_popescu: <trinque> might be able to just rip those bits off from the dep, then cut off the dep <<< ahahaha you.
trinque: mircea_popescu: I'm sure I'm about to see a nightmare when I pull the deps into the gcov thinger
trinque: but bitcoin! it seems so simple!
trinque shakes his head
jurov: can gcov cope with templated function generated by macros?
mod6: 286k+
trinque: jurov: according to this you lose a lot of detail, i.e only get statistics for the line of the macro call http://codingfreak.blogspot.com/2009/02/gcov-analyzing-code-produced-with-gcc.html
assbot: Gcov - analyzing code produced with GCC ~ Codingfreak ... ( http://bit.ly/1LPkDIz )
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1186129 << a tape recorder is the one thing I forgot to bring (I had specifically prepared one for the event but forgot to pack it) -- the mere act of having such a device around free-staters would probably trigger them into a rage
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 23:48:17; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-07-2015#1184704 << dude you gotta wear a recording devince next and have someone transcribe it.
trinque: danielpbarron: s-stop the surveillance!
jurov: you can record with cellphone, no?
jurov: or is removing battery mandatory at such meetings?
mircea_popescu: incidentally, am i the only one finding it a wee bit suspicious that the orphan chain ended up 6 blocks long, ie, exactly the size normally deemed "safe" ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: you think there was a big transaction that got double-spent ? or...
mircea_popescu: one could definitely have existed, on this basis.
danielpbarron: jurov, by the time i can get my iphone out of pocket, unlocked, open the recording app, start recording.... the lunatic has already spouted off the gems worth recording
pete_dushenski: what i can't figure out is why the hashrate didn't seem to split with the ph0rk...
mircea_popescu: then again plenty of people do not even wait for one.
jurov: pete_dushenski does anyone do such fine statistics?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186531 << the clients do seem to run into similar problems eh.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 04:15:35; ben_vulpes: simple rehash of the "let's probe network cohesion strength" fork
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski 6 blocks wouldn't necessarily be visible. even three deep reorgs happen with some regularity naturally.
pete_dushenski: jurov: perhaps not.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: ok, but assuming those 6 invalid orphan blocks are off on their own, how is it that some sites (eg. bc.i) are reporting that this foundation of sand is still being built on ?
mircea_popescu: are they ? i've not looked.
jurov: no it reports them as orphaned
jurov: https://blockchain.info/blocks just the numbering is messed up
assbot: Blocks mined on 04/07/2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RXfKfp )
pete_dushenski: jurov: perhaps ima confoozed, but don't orphaned blocks have to be replaced with valid blocks in the main chain ?
jurov: yes.. that's why i say numbers are messed up
pete_dushenski: so the numbers are meaningless ?
pete_dushenski: must be...
mircea_popescu: here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all.
mircea_popescu: these are people who have been so far causing nothing but problems for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: there can not be a single instance documented where they did anything useful to any degree or in any sense
mircea_popescu: an abundance of instances can be documented where they fucked things up
mircea_popescu: then they go on reddit to "explain" why what they fucked up isn't their fault, and "what really happened" , and collect cheap applause from the celenterates therein living.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00054516 = 13.4655 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski searches memory for instances of useful 'devs'... blank.
mircea_popescu: this is EXACTLY how usg works throughout. first, cause black people to be poor and depenedent. then cause them to be violent. then go on press conferences about how "they're doing things about black violence"
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 new build successful and now in sync ...
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: right. splendid. how about go home and the problem goes away with you.
mircea_popescu: so in this sense, BIP 999 : No more fucking BIPs.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: it's the broken window/car accident economy
pete_dushenski: great for gdp.
mircea_popescu: i do not see any gdp here.
pete_dushenski: shitty for civilisation.
mircea_popescu: for the unsubstantiated delusionsm of a few random geeks, working to make the world believe they're knowledgeable and important, bitcoin hiccups every so often.
pete_dushenski: !gettrust travispatron
assbot: travispatron is not registered in WoT.
pete_dushenski: for when he does...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 170149 @ 0.00054549 = 92.8146 BTC [+] {4}
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell travispatron you sucked before, you suck now, and you will always suck. enjoy the periphery, derp.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: for posterity, because menahem's comment was beleeted once and it'll obviously happen again :https://archive.is/mKOij
menahem: lulz
jurov: pete_dushenski: looks like b.info is hopelessly stuck on showing only orphaned blocks
assbot: Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( http://bit.ly/1LPnpO1 )
jurov: (blockr is right)
pete_dushenski: such vc funding...
pete_dushenski: wait, who owns blockr again ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all. << Very much agreed. If someone wants to change something they should write to The Foundation's btc-dev mailing list and submit a patch. And if they can't because they're not in the WoT, well they're not in the WoT. They can make a personal appeal here in person.
mircea_popescu: alternatively they could just shut down and stfu already.
mod6: haha. yeah, that too.
mats: pete_dushenski: coinbase
pete_dushenski: mats: aha thanks. just goes to show that there are shades of grey in the braindead morass of veecee moolah, not all are created equal.
mircea_popescu: also lulzy for all the people using blockchain.info to validate txn.
jurov: or b1ockchain.info or other similar derivatives
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58249 @ 0.00054577 = 31.7906 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: "wangchunLuke-Jr: I do not know how that v2 pool was relayed, log was lost in a screen session"
mircea_popescu: this gotta be a... cultural thing.
mats: le pgp key server almost done cooking
mats: mircea_popescu: should i make it publicly available for auditing?
mircea_popescu: mats of course.
mats: or keep it in house; perhaps jurov or asciilifeform would be interested in doing it
mats: alright
mircea_popescu: consider sign and submit to list.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_modem
mircea_popescu: apparently in the world we live in, the best way to ensure nobody reads something is to publish it as code anyway
ascii_modem: so where are the pikes with the headz??
mircea_popescu: there is no physical punishment for being extremely ridiculous.
ascii_modem: oh and no reorgs in my log
mircea_popescu: there are some people that go around introducing themseves as "bitcoin devs" who just spectacularly failed the least controversial soft fork to date.
mircea_popescu: this isn't washing
mircea_popescu: but whatever, phantomcircuit is still the guy who ran "a security companmy" that oversaw 3 bitcoinica thefts, and still the guy who hacked a python one liner to send every customer an email with the full list of customer emails
mircea_popescu: yet he's still walking around as if he were somehow still a person.
mircea_popescu: the dead don't know they're dead ; the ridiculous don't know they're ridiculous. the world is well constructed for one's amusement.
ascii_modem: the enemy accomplished his objective, which probably had something to do with discrediting chinese mines
mircea_popescu: to pin objectives on brownian motion...
mircea_popescu: "the enemy" is barely cogent enough to be enmitous at all.
ascii_modem: not brownian - has very obvious aims (keeping turdalicious-bitcoind in circulation being one)
mircea_popescu: i suspect this obviousness is a fruit of your eye, not of the thing you're lookling on. like people perceive souls in cats' eyes.
mircea_popescu: just because you have one, and it's a very reflective surface, doesn't mean it has one too.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25300 @ 0.00054735 = 13.848 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: neway, of more interesting things : confirmed my seeder's stuck on 363736.
ascii_modem: was when i last saw
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem this is incidentally an exceptional opportunity to test our recent toolset.
mircea_popescu: what happens if you import the 7 block alt-chain into the stator ?
ascii_modem: innit in there now? or am i confused
mircea_popescu: atm the situation is that block 363730 is forked. one chain, 6 blocks long, proceeds atop a v2 block. the current main chain proceeds from 363730 on v3 blocks.
mircea_popescu: the difference between v3 and v2 is , as best anyone can determine, actual fucking validation for the openssl nonsense. hardly avoidable.
mod6: !gettrust phf mod6
assbot: Trust relationship from user phf to user mod6: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=phf&to=mod6 | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/mod6/
mircea_popescu: this, obviously, would also be where to bury who knows what. but if it's there, nobody's found it yet that i know
ascii_modem: so evil wins?
mircea_popescu: how so ?
ascii_modem: we involuntarily backport a gavinism?
mircea_popescu: how's it a gavinism to begin with ?
ascii_modem: because not ours?
mircea_popescu: lemme lay out the issue here in detail, i think it's mebbe getting fudged.
mircea_popescu: so 1. it was observed that the idiots running openssl, who for historical reasons are actually wholesale pulled into bitcoin, decided to fuck up the way they do signatures, which is to say, make items signed come out in rnadom shapes. this is obviously very dangerous for bitcoin
ascii_modem: aga i recall
mircea_popescu: 2. a voluntary, user-enforced change to the protocol was proposed (iirc by petertodd) where only DER sigs are accepted anymore.
mircea_popescu: this is neither a bad idea nor in any sense avoidable. because, again, without it we'll fork daily.
mircea_popescu: it'd have been ideal to not import the satoshism in question into bitcoin, but before our time.
mircea_popescu: 3. in order to avoid the situation that happened tonight, a supposed "voting" mechanism was deployed where people switched an irrelevant byte in the blocks they mined, to go from 2 to 3, to indicate they are ready and willing to follow the new rules.
mircea_popescu: this, again, has nothing to do with us. if tomorrow miners decide as a social game to never communicate any blocks they find that hash to odd, it's THEIR problem
ascii_modem: where were the daily forks b/w january (?) and now ?
mircea_popescu: and we'll never see an odd hash block for as long as they keep at it.
mircea_popescu: lemme finish
mircea_popescu: 4. the people who voted did so as all people voting ever do : blankly, mouth only. then, someone mined a v2 block on top of a v3 block (which to them look identical) and the supposed 95% majority that promised by that vote to distinguish failed to distinguish. well, half of them or so. the other half distinguished
mircea_popescu: this utterly proves that a) the BIP system provides no benefit and should be disused ; b) the peoiple involved with all this nonsense should be muted ; c) voting does not work. nothing here is novel.
mircea_popescu: none of this in any way invalidates anything about the new chain, nor is it a point of concern that i can distinguish
ascii_modem: got plan?
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem where were the daily forks b/w january (?) and now ? << costs a little to make one, nobody cared enough. (also lots of manual intervention and general ducttaping at the miner and relayer level - bitcoin is quickly becoming an excellent makework tool, keeping idiots both employed and in a delusion of importance)
mircea_popescu: well, just let the chain reorg an' carry on, imo.
mircea_popescu: i still don't see how it affects us / anything of concern.
ascii_modem: where is my reorg?
ascii_modem: my node is dead in the water
mircea_popescu: the only problem is that the clients ain't reorging properly, which needs looking into/
mircea_popescu: which is why i said, perfect time to test our tools.
ascii_modem: i saw no signs of blocks happening at all
mircea_popescu: specifically, what happens if you put the new chain into a node
mircea_popescu: well you're only looking at mine, and mine's not relaying.
mircea_popescu: which it's how it's made to work, better fail than be stupid.
ascii_modem: gonna plug in the one on dulap when i get home
mircea_popescu: now, since you're synced to my level, and you have a full validating node, i see no reason to not open the listen port. do you ?
mircea_popescu: the original point of this thing i run here was to give all comers the historical chain as is in my custody.
mircea_popescu: i do intend to replace it with a foundation one as soon as practicable.
mircea_popescu: but for now it can stay as it is, because i think more people were syncing to it.
mircea_popescu: im also going to have it unstuck, but i got a shitpile of stuff cooking atm.
mircea_popescu: behind on reports and etc.
ascii_modem: from your earlier pastes, mirceacoind has slightly spiffier debug...? than ri
mircea_popescu: i dunno, mebbe
mircea_popescu: i dun think i ever used the original.
mircea_popescu: what's bitcoind debug toolset ?
ascii_modem: just about nil
ascii_modem: only the log
mircea_popescu: then perforce ?
trinque: ascii_modem: some lcov output for ya http://bot.deedbot.org/stator-lcov/
assbot: LCOV - coverage.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1KFihdx )
trinque: added the --coverage flag to all the deps
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem anything will be spiffier than nil neh ?
ascii_modem: trinque: neato - will read as soon as i'm not on street
trinque: cool, just wanted to post the link
ascii_modem: fellas, we gotta infer, divine, & reimplement mircea_popescu's mega-debugger
mircea_popescu: i run a public company wut do you want from me, blood ?
mircea_popescu: omaygerd
mircea_popescu: anyway, i am very much amused at the way discussion with kakobrekla turned out. 600 hours "oh miners will just so and so " "nobody cares what miners do" ; 1800 "oh miners just so and so'd!!1" "and it turns out nobody cared".
mircea_popescu: so what, is "95% consensus" going to gavincoin next ? for ... all of six blocks again ? cool.
thestringpuller: !up ascii_modem
ascii_modem: picture if we had pogos deployed
mircea_popescu: wouldn't have changed anything.
thestringpuller: d00d i can't spend shit this weekend.
thestringpuller: "We need 20 confirms sorry"
ascii_modem: how many other ways for fuckers to wedge us
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 142438 @ 0.00054539 = 77.6843 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: this is a major problem, and the fact we're looking into it one of the few things giving me solace and better rest at night
ascii_modem: this incident makes it very tempting to just unzip, piss on satoshid, and go ada sanityfork (tm)
mircea_popescu: gotta make the fambly unit work alfie.
mircea_popescu: i know she's stupid and fat and you want a divorce, but...
mircea_popescu: gotta make the fambly unit work.
ascii_modem: right now we got an anthill in the living room
mircea_popescu: and you don't even know about the used condoms behind the bed headboard
ascii_modem: there are different schools of thought re how to furnish a room
punkman: I think we need to put a lot more comments on the code, kinda clunky to do through patches to ML though
ascii_modem: but none include anthill
thestringpuller: you married alf?
mircea_popescu: punkman you can resubmit it commented.
mircea_popescu: an' signed, an' people will prolly prefer referencing yours unless it's dumb
mircea_popescu: in which case they'll prolly change it rather than start from the original. unles it's VERY dumb.
mircea_popescu: which sort of reorg apparentyly happens, or used to happen, a whole lot.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45900 @ 0.00054068 = 24.8172 BTC [-]
ascii_modem: so far i'm not sure any of you apprehend just what a steaming turd the thing is
punkman: in other news, ATMs getting ddos'd even at 1am. rejects transaction, spits out card, and you gotta start over. perhaps intentional rate-limiting.
ascii_modem: where?
mircea_popescu: he's in greece.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the main sufferance in my head atm is that reading the chinese stuff (in translation) clarifies in my head an objection that may well be a second major flaw to the protocol, after the "relay nodes gotta do it for the glory" : its altogether unclear a purely financial incentive is the correct solution for miners.
mircea_popescu: specifically : atm there is an arbitrage open, where you can either make money by "brute forcing" it ie hashing,
mircea_popescu: or else by fucking up other people's miners. i ordered a listing of "all the ways you could exploit a miner with crafted comms for a hash advantage"
mircea_popescu: the process hasn't returned yet, the list is already hundreds of entries long
mircea_popescu: most only apply to specific implementationms etc, but! fuck me...
ascii_modem: this is the exam thread all over again
mircea_popescu: it pays more as a pool operator to be into skulldugery than into running your pool
ascii_modem: where 'exams optimize for examsmanship'
mircea_popescu: ipso facto "running pool" ===== "nefariousness in layers"
mircea_popescu: sure, people don't do it yet. mostly because lazy, 2nd mostly because stupid, 3rd mostly because it's not even txn time yet.
mircea_popescu: but when that begins all this may fucking collapse under the weight of... if money's the incentive to mine mining will not exactly allign with "securing the network"
mircea_popescu: (txn time = when most miner revenue comes from block txn)
ascii_modem: the mire scant the crumbs, the bloodier the crumbfight
pete_dushenski: ^my modest post-mortem, perhaps early...
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem more specifically put : currently everyone is mining with a "god given" known tx of 25 btc + whatever they pick off the ground.
mircea_popescu: tomorrow, they will not KNOW immediately through act of god where that 25 btc comes from
ascii_modem: 12.5...
mircea_popescu: atm 99.x% of income comes through this immediate, sent-from-heaven-above channel
mircea_popescu: if as much as 66% comes that way and the other 33% has to be found out about... o baby.
mircea_popescu: hard to convey what the changes in dynamic such a thing brings.
ascii_modem: also touches on the mempool thread
mircea_popescu: really the % of income "just known" vs "information acquired" is the proper measure.
mircea_popescu: atm the split is .999 - .001 or somesuch. this will change monotoniucall;y the other way
ascii_modem: whole thing is mostly duct tape by weight
punkman: "A blockchain that does not validate under 0.5.3 is an altcoin blockchain." << both forks were valid in 0.5.3, right?
ascii_modem: so far there is no structure remotely enough to take up the weight if the duct tape is ripped out
mircea_popescu: punkman right. hence all the "We don't give a shit" verbiage here.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i don't envisage as much as an inkling of a solution. just more stuff to worry about.
ascii_modem: one one hand, i don't give a shit, yes. on the other, a human turd pressed a button, my nodes are halted, and there is no guarantee that they don't have a bottomless magazine of these
mircea_popescu: but this situation is why im so cold on your ada idea. sure, you go put all the god damned effort into writing a fully correct, fully specified implementation oif an... broken idea.
mircea_popescu: i like you too much for something liek that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57600 @ 0.00053931 = 31.0643 BTC [-] {3}
ascii_modem: so invent correct idea ?
mircea_popescu: until we know exactly wtf to do about relayers, about miners now, there is no point. the prototype's still prototypin'.
mircea_popescu: dude, how about you actually get some data first omfg.
mircea_popescu: yea, i get it, may mean that this makes your fate be to muddle in the dirt, piling up data for your kid, who maybe might do it.
mircea_popescu: fuck you, your grandparents were farmers. it's how this fucking world works.
ascii_modem: would really help to have a fucking reasonable platform for this
mircea_popescu: yes. it would really help.
ascii_modem: that means not hairball
mircea_popescu: no, i know.
ascii_modem: actually ~my~ grandparents were approx. what i am now, l0l
ascii_modem: the male ones at least
ascii_modem: but farming is tempting, yes
punkman: "Chrome extension "BitcoinWisdom Ads Remover" by MasterX will change your btce deposit address after page is loaded. Do not use this app or remove it if you installed."
punkman: surprised we aren't seeing more of these
ascii_modem: run moar chromedowz!!
punkman: farming is tempting?
ascii_modem: compared to c++
punkman: wait until you try to debug plants
trinque: or a cow's arse
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just sayin, humanity was built by originally trudging the muck with no tools.
mircea_popescu: there is no reason to expect any better in this new field. it is, after all, a field.
mircea_popescu: and yes, most men died before seeing the thing they were working for. historically, to date.
mircea_popescu: there's no reason to expect etc etc.
mircea_popescu: <punkman> wait until you try to debug plants << he has a point there. tho in fairness iirc alf debugged mice at some point.
mircea_popescu is mildly impressed at alf's lineage in any case. my grandparents were teachers and whatnot, but great-grandparents deifnitely farmers.
punkman: I get very frustrated at things like "o hey we've sprayed 12 different solutions at it and the damn lemon tree still has fungus"
mircea_popescu: not really *that* far off
mircea_popescu: punkman i had problems with, "artichoke does so well here, it actually STAYED GREEN THROUGH WINTER, suppoirting an inch of snow on its upturned broad leaves. meanwhile, magnolia sapplings grow < 1inch per year and will never flower"
mircea_popescu: the town was fully of blooming magnolias and i never saw a single artichoke plant outside of my garden
punkman: for a short time I believed in the mythical farmer that actually knows what he's doing. But after watching the experts debug these things, my only conclusion is they sometimes get lucky and that's the best I could hope for.
punkman: maybe they got better corn science over in the US, dunno.
mircea_popescu: just like coders.
mircea_popescu: yeah, if you agree to make unedible crud you may have better control.
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187199 << whoops. My 0.5.3.1ish pogo node is the one that is fully synched after today's craziness; it's my 0.7.2 node that is currently stuck..
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:52:19; danielpbarron: my 0.7.2 node is at height=363815
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron are yuou up to date ? what's lastblock ?
danielpbarron: height=363856
punkman: I tried heirloom tomatos for a bit. I now know why everyone's using the same boring/bland strain.
mircea_popescu: yeah that' right
mircea_popescu: consider pubnlishing ip if not done so already
danielpbarron: i don't have port forwarded to that machine
mircea_popescu: punkman meanwhile hanbot used to grow cherry tomatoes on her windowsill.
mircea_popescu: like... half pount per six inch tall plant
danielpbarron: aha my isp provided modem/router is working again. will have ip in a moment
danielpbarron: (previously forwarded all ports to one DMZ machine)
hanbot: oh yeah, those windowtomatoes were great.
mod6: <+danielpbarron> height=363856 << your v0.5.3.1ish node has this height?
mircea_popescu: hanbot it still seems thermodynamically impossible.
mircea_popescu: a two ounce leaf can not carry a twelve ounce load!
mircea_popescu: mod6 the blockchain is not compromised.
hanbot: you don't understand the way the windowmato works.
mircea_popescu: just some nodes have trouble unsticking, which as i said above, great place to test our new block manip tools etc.
danielpbarron: mod6, yes
mod6: yeah, read that.
mod6: mp, you're right, should test the new dump/eat tools with the orphan blocks
mod6: see what happens.
mircea_popescu: i still dunno why they do it. i've not yet managed to unstick a stuck one from last night
mod6: danielpbarron: great! thanks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80000 @ 0.0005447 = 43.576 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: superficially it seemed reorg blocks like it did in 2013, but maybe deeper than that. have not yet gone too deep into
punkman: we need something that stores these forks for inspection and replaying. I think ben_vulpes had a thread about that
mircea_popescu: punkman well now we have it! alf wrote the shitblock!
mircea_popescu: this is exactly the sortt of situation the entire deterministic thing he was crowing about is meant for.
mircea_popescu: which, in terms of parachutes.. .you gotta admit... perfect timing
danielpbarron: 71.232.150.212 port 8139 is a fully synched 0.5.3.1~ node
mircea_popescu: almost as if someone was holding off hitting the muppets over the head with a 2x4 until b-a crowd had its ducks lined
punkman: yeah but after reorg it throws the things away right? you'd have to shitblock at just the right time
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187574 <<< never had a problem with them down under.. 4-5 day heat wave is the only thing that fucked my tomatoes 2 seasons ago
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 22:58:41; punkman: I tried heirloom tomatos for a bit. I now know why everyone's using the same boring/bland strain.
mircea_popescu: punkman which is why im keeping stuck nodes.
mircea_popescu: the one i originally advertised for instance.
punkman: cazalla: I fucked the up with too much sunlight many times.
mircea_popescu: cazalla did you spray water ?
cazalla: mircea_popescu, nope, good water in the evening and morning but the 4-5 days of 40-44 degree heat toppled em
mircea_popescu: people in heatwave places have these fine nozzles
mircea_popescu: a gallon of water makes half hour's mist, protects the plant if there's any air draft at all
mircea_popescu: otherwise, stews it. which...
cazalla: might've been the uv damage that killed em, i don't really know other than summer 2013 provide no tomatos
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.00054735 = 9.7428 BTC [+]
cazalla: thinking about making some tomato wine this coming summer but from what i've read, it isn't that nice
ben_vulpes: <mats> alright << i'd love a read
punkman: cazalla: might as well get some grapes
cazalla: unfortunately i don't really have a place suitable for a few vines
punkman: cazalla, you can grow a tall vine and have it hang from a pergola type thing
mod6: phf: hey, i was able to apply your patch for OpenBSD onto stator, but I hit this problem after boost compiled: http://dpaste.com/0WRAK16.txt any thoughts?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 22:03:31; mircea_popescu: 3. in order to avoid the situation that happened tonight, a supposed "voting" mechanism was deployed where people switched an irrelevant byte in the blocks they mined, to go from 2 to 3, to indicate they are ready and willing to follow the new rules.
cazalla: punkman, no pergola but we have a clothesline i could commandeer but doubt the missus would like that heh
cazalla: punkman, that's lovely, just wish i had the room :\
punkman: used to have one of these on 2nd floor roof, vine roots at ground floor
punkman: shade's good for the bunnies too, such synergy
cazalla: punkman, killed em off a while ago, might take em up again once i own a larger block of land
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 165384 @ 0.00053421 = 88.3498 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: "Después de encontrar una vulnerabilidad grave en el sistema de voto electrónico a #MSA estan allanando mi casa, los de delitos informaticos."
punkman: (in argentina)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57908 @ 0.00053236 = 30.8279 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 23:07:30; mircea_popescu: punkman which is why im keeping stuck nodes.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8306 @ 0.00053236 = 4.4218 BTC [-]
gernika: For any interested: using phf's patch with a few mods for amd64 I have successfully built stator on OpenBSD.
gernika: It is syncing
punkman: gernika: cool
ben_vulpes: so's this phr0k the nail in 20mb blocks' coffin?
punkman: gernika, maybe write up your process/mods
gernika: Will do. Need to sign up for the mailing list.
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "i sell bitcoins and bitcoin-backed derivatives"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes myeah.
ben_vulpes: 1mb's too big already.
punkman: didn't need more nails
ben_vulpes: how convenient!
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: is now known as ben hill
mircea_popescu: <punkman> "Después de encontrar una vulnerabilidad grave en el sistema de voto electrónico a #MSA estan allanando mi casa, los de delitos informaticos." << in case anyone else missed it, this country is mostly a parody.
ben_vulpes: clearly you don't fight enough zombies
mircea_popescu: gernika well done.
mircea_popescu: !rated gernika
assbot: You have not rated gernika.
mircea_popescu: !rate gernika 1 New blood.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3cb6bf2132382215
gernika: thanks mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.gernika.1:eb318647a108e0be29f9865dd2fdfb67a3b866e012eab068bab5f31c1d2db831
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for gernika with note: New blood.
ben_vulpes: wait gernika's new blood?
mircea_popescu: is to me.
mircea_popescu: <punkman> gernika, maybe write up your process/mods << also a good idea. submit to mail list, now you can.
punkman: he voiced himself, could post at ml already
mircea_popescu: ah right. missed that.
shinohai: @ ben_vulpes did you need anything important when you pinged me earlier? It was like 4 am here, so I missed it
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: from whence this quote ?
pete_dushenski: travis ?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:02:26; punkman: maybe we should add a .conf option that lets whoever really wants it to skip VerifySig between checkpoints
pete_dushenski: alas, some cabin and some party with some people beckon. a demain !
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187155 << this isn't the right aproach. can you think of any reason TO include it ?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:04:00; asciilifeform: can't think of any reason not to
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185459 << i don't think this addresses collusion.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:17:00; ascii_field: and shamir for the original poker
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187156 << how exactly would they do this ? by mining a block ? at this diff ?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:06:20; punkman: as it is 0.5.3.1/0.5.4 versions will accept blocks of version 1 and 2, allowing shitgnomes to induce forks. what's gonna happen with this?
ben_vulpes: shinohai: wanted to know about your 0.5.3.1's behavior during the phr0k
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell pete_dushenski king of the hill: "i sell cars and car backed securities"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Oh it is still syncing
punkman: mircea_popescu: well it costs 25btc, if they can doublespend more than that somewhere...
mircea_popescu: if that costs 25btc then any chip alf wants costs ~50 cents
mircea_popescu: cause that's "what chips cost"
punkman: yeah that was stupid, never mind
mircea_popescu: im not saying it's not possible, obviously.
punkman: but still, any derpy miner can do this
mircea_popescu: best i can discern, this is not only legitimate, but will be the ultimate end situaiton
mircea_popescu: one day, someone WILL mine a version 1 block that WILL stick.
mircea_popescu: the current power ranger derpitude is like america.
mircea_popescu: "for as long as gargle lasts"
ben_vulpes: eh, alf may actually get to the ada impl before a block v1 sticks again.
mircea_popescu: he might.
mircea_popescu: or he might not.
mircea_popescu: management's about doors.
ben_vulpes: howso?
mircea_popescu: "I shook hands with the man I did most of the talking with and they took off... I was a little shooken up but realized I made a big mistake! I forgot to shake the black police detective's hand... shit!!!"
mircea_popescu: heh. these people... adult infants i swear.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes not a very good q.
ben_vulpes: d'you mean that management is about "you may do XXX but not YYY" when you say "doors"?
mircea_popescu: no, i mean, sure, maybe x will happen. but then again maybe x won't.
mircea_popescu: like so :
assbot: Old story on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NEzPWy )
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185611 << i keep a git repo on disk, i think someone else has one of these running in public as well
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:21:32; mod6: I will work on a patch list and maybe a script later this month. It is a bit hard to follow.
assbot: Commits · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDVz4L )
ben_vulpes: https://github.com/extempore/real-bitcoin << i keep the patches in their own directory
assbot: extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDVzlg )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187175 << there is a world under the ground we know little about.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:19:51; punkman: 30k student email list? I scraped like 5mil for leet sv startup last year.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187182 << add lying schmucks to a degree not experienced since kindergarten on pirate island. the f2pool admin's explanation is "we got the bad block from antpool, who we don't know how they got because they told us they only follow us"
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...
mircea_popescu: because yes, we're fucktarded enough to not notice what's proposed here is a closed f2pool - antpool loop. they're over there in their own parallel universe.
mircea_popescu: i dunno when it became fashionable to be infantile, but i'm getting pretty sick of it.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 17:23:18; trinque: yeah, I'm being hyperbolic
ben_vulpes: ohai punkman
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185652 << i really gotta post ak47.sh to the ml
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:49:35; shinohai: mod6: if you want another auto.sh, I'll try and help you when I understand this new build xD
mircea_popescu: "Note that the roughly 50% of the network that was SPV mining had explicitly indicated that they would enforce the BIP66 rules. By not doing so, several large miners have lost over $50,000 dollars worth of mining income so far."
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the inept spin they published, why the fuck are we pricing things in dollars.
shinohai: I finally got it set up correctly this evening, it pays to look at things when you aren't fantastically drunk
mircea_popescu: have the decency to use zimbabwe pula or something
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:56:42; trinque: could refine that to "and then presents me a buffer of the diff"
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185238 << lol asciilifeform check out how studious this guy is
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 15:30:34; scoopbot_revived: Hits and misses of Ted "The Unabomber" Kaczynski. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/03/hits-and-misses-of-ted-the-unabomber-kaczynski/
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185240 << where the fuck was "blasphemy" ever illegal.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 15:44:14; assbot: Iceland makes blasphemy legal - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1UhMCDq )
mircea_popescu: dude i grew up sheltered in communist romania.
williamdunne: How old are you MP?
williamdunne: Oh that makes sense.
williamdunne: Lovely potato monument celebrating it
williamdunne: The revolutionary potato
shinohai: >mfw I see a guy named "popescu" on the fbi wanted list.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185320 << incidentally, twelve generations of peasants died in a pool of their own blood to get ownership over the fucking tools, as a precursor to over the land and eventually their life.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 17:45:53; pete_dushenski: punkman: ah yes, how farmers don't own the tools of their trade. sad story, that.
mircea_popescu: these idiots gave it all back because they gotta be jwz.
mircea_popescu: no place on earth was ever such an openm insult to the human spirit as north america is these days.
mircea_popescu: except, perhaps, for africa. again.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185329 << except cheaper to adapt the yard to the robot, as in all examination markets. so you get those round cultivated fields with a pillar in middle etc.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 17:48:44; decimation: actually I would pay good money for a robot that could wonder through a yard and pull weeds
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 17:57:51; ascii_field: this is amply described in the literature
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185395 << ceausescu did exactly this. if police found you oin the street and you had no place of employment, you'd get a beating and get force-sent to either vocational prison-school if underage or work camp if overage.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 17:58:57; trinque: pete_dushenski: I had this notion regarding the bums all over portland, that someone should take them to nearby farms for day labor in exchange for meals, showers, and somewhere to be warehoused at night.
mircea_popescu: this horrible trampling of rightrs and liberties resulted in a romania with absolutely no bums, and moreover, in the anedcodtic situation where i picked up a cab from the train station
mircea_popescu: and the cab driver was looking at this bum laying down
mircea_popescu: and he told me that he was an orphan, and that he got put by the commieus through the above grinder, and now he has a family and owns his car.
mircea_popescu: and i agree it's a pity nobody cares enough to beat up that bum.
mircea_popescu: so there we go.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:00:02; pete_dushenski: ascii_field: you buying a case of z80s or pogos is reallocating capital
mircea_popescu: even not counting the nsa etc ; pogo is a capital good.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_modem
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 00:23:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185400 << he got you there you know.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:04:12; funkenstein_: only in so much as farmers and homeowners accept their counterfeits
assbot: Digging through archives yields gold on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NEBNpS )
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem you're not going to redefine terms of art now, are you ?
ascii_modem: iirc classic sense ?
ascii_modem: i.e. my pants arent capital
mircea_popescu: capital goods produce value. all there is to them.
mircea_popescu: pogo is not your pants.
mircea_popescu: as much as running your own server is controlling a capital good. not a very significant one, but that's a quantitative discussion
mircea_popescu: arguably intelligence is similarly of a capital good, and you have enough control of it to, for instance, contribute here. other people do not have this luxury - for instance because they agreed some employer owns it all.
mircea_popescu: so... no.
ascii_modem: sorta like gravity. yes, sufficiently far from solar system, anyone can become a 'stellar body' if you shove him out airlock
mircea_popescu: i thought you reasoned in categories.
mircea_popescu: what's this "quantity is the determinator of quality" approach then ?
ascii_modem: original thread was re 'who is wageslave and who - capitalist'
mircea_popescu: see ag3nt_zero, syllogism. reductio ad absurdum. present the op with a dilemma, so he can either explain what was misunderstood or correct what he misunderstood
mircea_popescu: well sure, original thread.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185411 << they aren't always performing. most of them can't perform worth a shit. nevertheless, the sexual exploitation of women is an important element of mental health, including for the women in question, for women in general, for men in general...
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:06:43; mats: BingoBoingo: 'There's no regulation', '... and it's really difficult to believe that the girls who were crying when they're being "raped" are always acting and performing'
mircea_popescu: so i fully expect this to get "regulated".
ascii_modem: pogo & the other junk is in different category than 'capital proper' in my mind because none of this stuff 'pays for itself'
ascii_modem: as, e.g., fisherman's boat does
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185445 << to hear him say it, he's like that beat up chimp in the experiments
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:14:11; ascii_field: what family i've left is in it too
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem so far seemingly phuctor does ?
ascii_modem: it's a pet, apparently
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185497 << what's the job mostly, looking at deep frozen pork bellies ?
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:25:12; pete_dushenski: public health inspector :)
ascii_modem: for those who don't know - mircea_popescu contributed the bix phuctor runs on
mircea_popescu: comes out of nsa accts tho. eventually.
ascii_modem: so not clear how 'pays for self'
ascii_modem: rather, running on battery like other things
mircea_popescu: take the other side. i approved expenditure of ~7.5 btc on advertising as ceo of s.mg ; and of ~.25 (unreported, maybe next month i remember to put it in) on s.nsa.
mircea_popescu: the roi for the first was 0, the roi for the 2nd not 0.
mircea_popescu: how then, not "pay for self" ?
ascii_modem: in other nyuz, i'm sitting under the megaphallus in washington, and blinking eye of sauron
mircea_popescu: send our most heartfelt regards
ascii_modem: traditional holiday here. and there is a spybot in the cloud. which is lulzy because there is a huge sign, 'no smoking'-style, with crossed-out chopper
ascii_modem: 'no droning'
ascii_modem: pet saw it too, after i pointed where to look
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.0005477 = 15.1165 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 18:37:57; mats: ;;later tell dignork http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2015#1025687 << this ever go anywhere?
mats: contemplating hiring someone to work on it but it appears dignork has made much progress
mircea_popescu: eh, these hirign someone to work on things deals never work out.
ascii_modem: shamir poker?!?
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:43:30; funkenstein_: "southern pride" spamming qntra in an effort to discredit the site methinks
mats: yeah, ascii_modem
mats: i'd ordinarily do all the work myself but carpal tunnel is a srs rate limiter
ascii_modem: if kbd is your bottleneck, yerdoingitwrong
punkman: all that scrolling takes a toll
mats: probably.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185658 << this is not merely a difference of workflow, but a difference of philosophy. we are not interested in automation, we are interested in review and responsibility. the only concern that thing is adressing is that we find a critical bug tomorrow, i want to know who to negrate.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:51:29; phf: mod6: sorry, i wasn't really prepared to explain what i mean, i thought you would just grok the request as an obvious one. we probably just have very different workflows
ascii_modem: if you have megatonne of code, yerdoingitwrong
ascii_modem: i don't even care what domain
punkman: I've never even learned to touchtype properly
mircea_popescu: this follows in the wake of a few threads mostly brought to a head by the opnessl idiocies you might wish to review phf if you've not seen them before.
ascii_modem: me neither
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem harem, actually. "if you have a ton of babes, doing it wrong"
mircea_popescu: (truth!)
punkman: ascii_modem, oh good, thought it was just me
mircea_popescu: i don't touch type either, not usually.
williamdunne: How comes?
ascii_modem: now i dont look at the buttonz, no
mircea_popescu: touch typing is good if you're going to do straight typing for mintues at a time. i normally do not. i suppose you do not either, need a mouse, a this, a buffer, a that etc.
mircea_popescu: most of the benefit of touch typing comes from not moving your "frame" above the kbd.
mircea_popescu: hands on/hands off touch typing is nonsense.
mircea_popescu: ascii_modem that's how i end up with stuff like ;; and xse in my history file :D
williamdunne: The main issue I have with touch typing is occasionally my fingers landing in the wrong order or similar derpery
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185688 << either that on a website-y thing or have an option for a new subscriber to get whole shebang ?
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 20:01:45; jurov: i have nothing against publishing the mailbox
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 20:06:15; ascii_field: mats: iirc danielpbarron established that it ~has~ to use ssd
mircea_popescu: howlee sheit caught up on logs.
mircea_popescu: monstrous task.
punkman: lots of log forks
assbot: Yesterday's fork suggests we don't need a blocksize limit : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFXckv )
williamdunne: Tardstalk citation
mircea_popescu: how about it suggests we should stfu.
williamdunne: burrnnnn
williamdunne: The blocksizes at 1mb require broken mining, but bigger blocks will do... something
williamdunne: Oh god
williamdunne: my brain hurts
punkman: I like this style of annotation http://underscorejs.org/docs/underscore.html
assbot: underscore.js ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFXTdF )
trinque: punkman: probably a good format to annotate bitcoind
assbot: brynbellomy/otis · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYhci )
punkman: if anyone wants to crank some js
assbot: pyccoon 0.1.0 : Python Package Index ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYyM8 )
punkman: god there's a lot of these
williamdunne: re: Brazillian currency rigging
assbot: thats_bone comments on Fifteen of the world's largest banks are under investigation on suspicion of rigging the Brazilian currency, antitrust watchdog Cade said on Thursday, the first such probe in one of the busiest foreign exchange markets globally. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYYSK )
williamdunne: >I think the punishment for trading currencies should include execution in certain cases.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6650 @ 0.00054197 = 3.6041 BTC [-]
williamdunne: Reddit is just a goldmine for retards
assbot: sovereign_citizen comments on Fifteen of the world's largest banks are under investigation on suspicion of rigging the Brazilian currency, antitrust watchdog Cade said on Thursday, the first such probe in one of the busiest foreign exchange markets globally. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFZDUn )
williamdunne: >Remember the Libor scandal and interest fixing cartel?
williamdunne: >That was massive and NO ONE WENT TO JAIL. No one will go to jail for this either unless there is massive protesting. I would like to see people attack bankers with as much fervor as they attack ISIS. Bankers are literally worse than ISIS.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3587 @ 0.00054771 = 1.9646 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...
assbot: Logged on 25-06-2015 04:44:07; decimation: knows more about how to pile asics than how to program bitcoind
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187304 < why? it's not like their political positions are secret?
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 20:48:14; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1186129 << a tape recorder is the one thing I forgot to bring (I had specifically prepared one for the event but forgot to pack it) -- the mere act of having such a device around free-staters would probably trigger them into a rage
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16500 @ 0.00054793 = 9.0408 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187330 < amen. the 'cost' imposed by the version increment has hardly any benefit
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 21:00:18; mircea_popescu: here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all.
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187537 < yeah but meanwhile the shitgnomes dig deeper. surely there's a point where they muck things up? or perhaps there's nothing to be done about it.
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 22:40:26; mircea_popescu: until we know exactly wtf to do about relayers, about miners now, there is no point. the prototype's still prototypin'.
decimation: on the other hand, the shitgnomes are doing a great job at discrediting themselves
mod6: 292k+
decimation: asciilifeform: of mild interest from last night, apparently 'sipa' (Pieter Wuille) wrote a secp256k1 replacement library, apparently in attempt to ditch openssl https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1
assbot: bitcoin/secp256k1 · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1gh7cnU )
decimation: he doesn't advertise it as complete or fully functional yet
williamdunne: Meant to be notably faster too, no?
decimation: !up Vexual
Vexual: ascii_modem might like a voice
mircea_popescu: decimation the lib in question was discussed in log at the time too
Vexual: perhaps it's just a succession of tunnels
decimation: I looked for it
mircea_popescu: it's the result of a for-profit venture of some sort, gmaxwell went on a reddit rampage explaining hopw they "found bugs" and how great the entire process is etc
mircea_popescu: it wasn't that great or anything, but it doesn't have much competition either.
mircea_popescu: obv bitcoin can't continue pulling in random code. this is an assault on sense, as far as we're concerned, and an assault on their turf as they perceive it, as far as the pr group is concerned.
mircea_popescu: so yeah, check it out, agreement!
decimation: now, as I pointed out with midnightmagic, it strikes me as backwards to develop a replacement before describing a spec
mircea_popescu: more importantly there's doubts as to the suitability of the curve in question etc
decimation: well, yeah that's a matter for a mathematiciansssss5
decimation: stupid irissi
Vexual: greeks can't count to ballotppaper
decimation: !up asciilifeform
decimation: !up ascii_modem
mircea_popescu: !s libsecp256k1 from:mircea
assbot: 4 results for 'libsecp256k1 from:mircea' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=libsecp256k1+from%3Amircea
mircea_popescu: finally fouind it
ascii_modem: mircea_popescu: if could switch ecdsa curves, could as well have rsa!
ascii_modem: ifwisheswerehorses
ascii_modem: !s tinyecc
assbot: 0 results for 'tinyecc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tinyecc
decimation: ah I was searching for "secp256k1"
mircea_popescu: you'd have to pick something for your ada port. and there's not atm any way to pick.
decimation: stupid stemmer
mircea_popescu: if in a decade rsa is still as strong as today...
decimation: yeah it seems like we are stuck with secp256k1 anyway
ascii_modem: i'd pick my head
mircea_popescu: imagine, forty years later, still stands. what else in computin ?
mircea_popescu: your head can't be p2p
mircea_popescu: neways, ima go play lalala
ascii_modem: for ada port
ascii_modem: it'd need no deps
ascii_modem: but std compliant gcc
ascii_modem: if done by honest people
ascii_modem: plant it on bare metal.
decimation: !up Vexual
Vexual: i must admit, the soothsayer in me saw an error when bfl hit 2 in a row
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20513 @ 0.00054171 = 11.1121 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25600 @ 0.00054819 = 14.0337 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5250 @ 0.00054157 = 2.8432 BTC [-]
cazalla: Vexual, having some whiskey on a sunday eh?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19450 @ 0.00054833 = 10.665 BTC [+]
Vexual: hey, if you can't fix it with whisky and a hammer, its broken
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4429 @ 0.00054157 = 2.3986 BTC [-]
cazalla: !up Vexual
cazalla: i was at woolies yesterday arvo and they have an adjoining bottlo to it and i did this http://i.imgur.com/gAnUmJ2.gif
Vexual: well done sire
Vexual: wait, what?
Vexual: you resited temptation?
cazalla: lol yeah but i was in the belly of the beast
Vexual: too exxy?
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