Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-09-24 | 2019-09-26 → ↓
billymg: mircea_popescu: i could be completely missing the point though, i'm still not very familiar with pingbacks outside of the small bit i've read since you mentioned it
mircea_popescu: billymg, did you ever find the trilema article re how to re-do your missed pingbacks ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yup, was the cap.
mircea_popescu: fucking chinesium, everything;s just a name now. "oh, gigabyte". really, sucker ? why not hagen daasz! ITS DANISH ICECREAM
mircea_popescu: from fucking newark.
diana_coman: it's gigglybit!
mircea_popescu: it's a sadness.
mircea_popescu: anyways. i will now review my wot in preparation for deedbot updates!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-22 05:14:26 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << no, rating of 9 specifically, able to self-voice.
mircea_popescu: !!rate asciilifeform 9 his lordship the lord admiral
mircea_popescu: !!rate diana_coman 9 her ladyship the marquess eulora.
mircea_popescu: !!rate hanbot 9 her ladyship the lady falconeer.
mircea_popescu: hey, who knew, my little gimmick with the titles years ago makes this way the fuck easier now. win.
mircea_popescu: !!rate mod6 9 his lordship the lord high steward.
mircea_popescu: !!rate BingoBoingo 9 his lordship the lord goebbels.
mircea_popescu: !!rate Mocky 9 ἀποκρισιάριος دولة قطر‎
mircea_popescu: !!rate ben_vulpes 1 used to be the Lord of the Well, but meanwhile http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934268
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 21:37:26 trinque: bv wishes not to be raised, and I shan't press the issue further.
mircea_popescu: i suppose another side effect of all this is that it turns 1 ratings into a sorta morgue.
mircea_popescu: "mp, you can't negrate him, we can't sell to him if you do" "fuck. i don't wanna 0 it either, it'll disappear from the lists" "well..." "fuuuuck"
mircea_popescu: what can you do.
diana_coman: hm; why does 0 disappear from the lists though?
diana_coman: isn't that the natural morgue?
diana_coman: 0 is not "no rating"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, traditionally setting it to 0 is how you unset it.
mircea_popescu: i suppose, retrospectively, this is implementation of folly, there's no possible usecase for ACTUALLY ever unsetting a rating.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: yes, but not sure I see the point of "unset"; it's 0
diana_coman: exactly.
diana_coman: tbh it sounds a bit like discovering that 0 "exists", lol.
mircea_popescu: this is so ; but for the sake of sanity im not gonna spec significant changes in the middle of implementing a differen tspec.
mircea_popescu: it does at that.
mircea_popescu: we'll get to this later, i say.
mircea_popescu: it's philosophically fraught, because as per the spec a rating of 0 should convey that the rater deems he can answer NO questions about the ratee. in which case... why is it a rating.
mircea_popescu: of course, this could readily also bear the alternative interepretation of "there is nothing the rater WISHES TO SAY".
mircea_popescu: we can mull it over till april.
mircea_popescu: !!rate trinque 9 his lordship the master of the rolls.
mircea_popescu: !!rate ave1 9 his lordship the lord logiciel
mircea_popescu: !!rate lobbes 9 his lordship the lord of the auction house
mircea_popescu: there lolz, now you don't have to regret etcetera keks
mircea_popescu: it'll benefit the nooblets immensely if they seriously spend some time groking the "turn" thing. there's a time for everything ; and for most things that time isn't NOW.
mircea_popescu: !!rate spyked 9 his lordship the lord crypto-alchemist
mircea_popescu: !!rate billymg 2 promising noob
mircea_popescu: !!rate mp_en_viaje 9 my travel key.
mircea_popescu: !!rate nicoleci 2 slavegirl
mircea_popescu: ah, that wasn't even all that painful in the end.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: is there some eta/requirement on/for the castle-licensing thing? on my part I'm fine with it as stated.
mircea_popescu: nah was gonna do them next.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937779 - I think this is quite exactly what 0 rating means, yes.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 07:01:56 mircea_popescu: of course, this could readily also bear the alternative interepretation of "there is nothing the rater WISHES TO SAY".
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that people wish to say different things in different contexts.
mircea_popescu: the converse is folly, "oh, girl doesn't show her cunt". of course she does. just, maybe not to you.
diana_coman: hm; rather: 0 = there is history of interaction but there is nothing to say of the person currently (dead @ the morgue, precisely); onth no rating means no history whatsoever.
diana_coman: so yes, nothing the rater can/wishes to say of the current "person"; still, they can/wish to say something of the past-identity if one asks
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform scores on his choice of epithet. amir-al-bahr used to be "commander of the fleet", but the dwellers in the lower part of the kingdom of two sicilies (a byzantine remnant) thought it's rather something else.
deedbot: accepted: 1
deedbot: accepted: 1
deedbot: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other luzl, check out diana_coman being a prophet in her own country
diana_coman: heh, /me likes asciilifeform's dominus admirabilis
diana_coman: lol! that is probably among the easiest thing to prophesize, esp in land of shepherds
mircea_popescu: well... considering that i've been doing nothing all morning but fuck qwith cryptosystems, perhaps it could be said i've earned a breakfast.
diana_coman: enjoy!
bvt: mircea_popescu: i.e., in this context my rating remains +2, hence no self-voice in #trilema?
mircea_popescu: this is a problem innit.
mircea_popescu: not even just for bvt, also say nicoleci
mircea_popescu: i suppose the only workable solution here is indeed to admit http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-22#1937525 was actually ill-considered. yes 9 specifically might mean lordship, but that's not === selfvoice.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-22 05:14:26 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << no, rating of 9 specifically, able to self-voice.
mircea_popescu: so check this out trinque i changed my mind! http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << rating < 1, actually.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-21 23:53:50 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-20#1937433 << should be very easy, i.e. wrapped this weekend or next. to confirm, same rules as deedbot : nonzero rating -> able to self-voice?
mircea_popescu: damn, rating > 1. so 2 trhough 10 inclusive.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: isn't bvt lord verschlimmbessert?
mircea_popescu: wtf happened here
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I think this issue with self-voice vs lordship comes from #trilema being both republican halls (ie lords discussion) and your own training halls (hence nicoleci's problem to self-voice if only-9 can do it);
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ << he certainly is. nfi, what happened was i went by my ratings ; but his wasn't updated since february.
mircea_popescu: i suspect the issue was, didn't update his rating then because traveling or w/e, and look the havok it wrought downstream.
mircea_popescu: srory bvt , clerical error.
mircea_popescu: !!rate bvt 9 his lordship the lord verschlimmbessert
mircea_popescu: !!rate nicoleci 2 i own her
mircea_popescu: that'll be a doozy to translate to latin when he asks for his castle deed huh!
bvt: yes, this is what i was talking about, ty.
mircea_popescu: okies, did i fuck anything up ? since i'm right here at the instruments and can readily fix it.
diana_coman: I was just going/checking through the list and it seems everyone on the list got their 9 rating
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, that's it exactly, im also running a slutteria here among other things
diana_coman: for that matter, travel keys won't be able to self-voice but I don't see a real problem with that.
mircea_popescu: mine is lol
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: doh; lol.
mircea_popescu: though i see a problem now : i rated it 9.
diana_coman: but no, I wouldn't ask to have my travel key 9-rated.
mircea_popescu: !!rate mp_en_viaje 2 my travel key.
mircea_popescu: who else wants travel keys tehn ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: mine is diana_alt
diana_coman: !!key diana_alt
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 08:36:17 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: mine is diana_alt
hanbot: !!key hanbot_abroad
hanbot: ^mircea_popescu
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 08:37:00 hanbot: !!key hanbot_abroad
mircea_popescu: aaalrighty, that's done.
hanbot: tyvm
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in wikilulz, "She had permanently got actively involved in the society through institutional, civic and mediatic journals regarding philosophy, political science and the process of democratization in Romania."
mircea_popescu: anyway, vaguely interesting orc couple. he (adrian), minor philosophist wanna-be, writing twice a decade minuscule nothings ("what is not existence", 1994). she, mirela, doing ~exactly~ nothing. both born in the periphery, mid 50s, exactly another inginer-profesoara couple like so very many at the time.
mircea_popescu: except, of course, he's briefly director of the us influence publishing house, in 1990. then he disappears, with the purging of usgistanis in 1991.
mircea_popescu: then... she reappears. in 1998 he's annointed secretary of state, out of strictly nowhere ; she gets the political science deanship at the bucharest university, also out of nowhere. and from there, beautiful http://trilema.com/2017/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up/ careers in the delightful wooden tongue of the new socialism : "In 2000, she instituted the first postdoctoral programm
mircea_popescu: e of Political Science in Romania at Faculty of Political Science, National School of Political Studies and Public Administration, Bucharest. She added in the university curricula courses like feminist philosophy at the University of Bucharest, Faculty of Philosophy. In 2001, she had coordinated and the first collection of Gender Studies, Polirom Publishing. Moreover, her involvement developed the Political Science Curricu
mircea_popescu: la in accordance to the Bologna Programme, being a member of the evaluation commission in 1997.
mircea_popescu: She founded the country's first gender studies Master's program in 1998, and helped to organize one of its earliest independent women's nongovernmental organizations: AnA –The Romanian Society for Feminist Analyses. She is an expert advisor to both UNESCO and the European Union, and has won international fellowships at Cornell University, Oxford University and the Central European University in Budapest. She was also a F
mircea_popescu: ulbright recipient and was resident in the Department of Political Science at Indiana University in 2003–2004. "
mircea_popescu: and so ongoing -- in case you were wondering why bologna is such lulz, or why feminism is such a nothing, or so forth. all a concoction of convenience ; we enslaved all their good spies back in 1992, and well... all that's left is all that's left, a different flavour of institutionalized womanhood /
mircea_popescu: went as far as it could, but as you might notice, dude's blog's as abandoned as this whole 2000s lulz.
asciilifeform eats log...
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937738 << i admit, not yet seen one since '90s where it wasn't the cap
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 06:27:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yup, was the cap.
asciilifeform: it's come to where it almost makes sense to recap'em ~straight out of crate~
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937828 << outta curiosity, why not let the +1 people speak if they wake up ? ( or is idea that returns from grave oughta go straight to castles )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 08:23:44 mircea_popescu: damn, rating > 1. so 2 trhough 10 inclusive.
asciilifeform bbl,teatime
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, cuz im not that interested.
mircea_popescu: apparently there's need for a not-negative, nonzero number. 1 has been coopted.
mircea_popescu: in practical terms makes exactly 0 diff if you 1-rate or 2-rate noobs. plenty of space to 9.
asciilifeform: graveyard orbit eh.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937874 << seems like the termites they sent, work approx as well as spies ever did
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 10:44:58 mircea_popescu: and so ongoing -- in case you were wondering why bologna is such lulz, or why feminism is such a nothing, or so forth. all a concoction of convenience ; we enslaved all their good spies back in 1992, and well... all that's left is all that's left, a different flavour of institutionalized womanhood /
mircea_popescu: how the fuck well are they gonna work. good spies believe in something.
mircea_popescu: the cult of superficial convenience is incapable of producing good spies much like it's incapable of producing artistic capodopera , or industry masterpieces.
mircea_popescu: what they produce is garbage -- and on a "fair terms" comparison, i truly do not believe anyone can outdo socialism's per-capita, per-unit time, per-unit consumed or per-anything else garbage production.
mircea_popescu: much like matter-antimatter reaction's the most intense energy debit known to nature, "representative democracy" is the most intense garbage debit possible in society.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these new 'spies' aint tryin to bring back seekritz, but instead simply spread rot, a sort of bipedal smallpox blanket. seems to work
diana_coman: asciilifeform: that's...spores, not spies?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aha
asciilifeform: aka вредители.
mircea_popescu: keks. spores, aplty put.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the smallpox is necessary ; the orcs left undisturbed turn into fucking scotts.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in world of chinesium : 'lichee' co. is selling a 2.5x3cm arm7 w/ 32MB on-chip an' various periphs , for 7 $ in qty .
asciilifeform: with the modest ram, not a rk competitor, but potentially useful for other applications ( has 3 serial ports, so can eat FG ) ; runs 'pogo'-style linux, so can stuff even classic gpg in ; can have nic plug attached, so potentially even host small net proggies ; pulls coupla milliwatt, so could work in radio relays or similar.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937867 >> 'Director, National Socrates Agency, Romania; 1995 – 1997' << lol, yet another 'nsa' i had nfi about!111
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 10:44:39 mircea_popescu: anyway, vaguely interesting orc couple. he (adrian), minor philosophist wanna-be, writing twice a decade minuscule nothings ("what is not existence", 1994). she, mirela, doing ~exactly~ nothing. both born in the periphery, mid 50s, exactly another inginer-profesoara couple like so very many at the time.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in castles, 1 of diana_coman's students has some imho some notbad pieces on his www.
asciilifeform: seems to have grasped various points as he lurked.
mircea_popescu: could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/09/systemds-poettering-wants-to-break-linux-user-management-to-suspend-his-laptop/ << Qntra -- SystemD's Poettering Wants To Break Linux User Management To Suspend His Laptop
mircea_popescu: moreover, functional technology (as epitomized by Bitcoin) is definitionally, necessarily and unavoidably anti-socialist. so much so that reliably one can use the reverse heuristic : if something doesn't shit on the needy, doesn't it make it harder for the stupid and more expensive for the poor, that something is most likely shit, not technology
mircea_popescu: , nor science, nor good law, nor anything but.
mircea_popescu: so yes, there's ~IMPLICIT~ policy in [trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/][intellectual stance] : if you're smart, you're here ; if you're not here, you're ~THEREFORE~ dumb. and so following.
mircea_popescu: anyways ; the name sounds familiar
snsabot: Logged on 2017-04-02 11:49:48 jhvh1: Hello thorntron. Who is your daddy and what does he do?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc he was at some pt 'tomservo'
mircea_popescu: oh is it ?
mircea_popescu: well anyways
asciilifeform: electronics fella. meanwhile went an' learned greek.
asciilifeform: for the l0gz: 'Years ago, a “technical” decision was made by a core gcc developer named Drepper to break static linking. This means that no useful binaries can ever execute on Linux without dynamically linking to certain libraries making the proposition of distributing signed binaries futile, making the proposition of secure software futile, making the proposition of Bitcoin futile, making the proposition of sound money futile, m
asciilifeform: aking the proposition of free trade futile. Whether or not Drepper is aware of the political implications of the of his technical decision is irrelevant to the fact of their existance. Nevertheless, there is a belief by technologists “educated” at ITT and the public equivilants that software can exist outside of politics. As a result the US has a legal system that runs on Word, a financial system that runs on Excel, and a voting
asciilifeform: system that runs on Windows.'
asciilifeform: imho notbad schoolb00k summary.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937913 << btw these need the 'htt...' for the parser to fire
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 14:59:46 mircea_popescu: so yes, there's ~IMPLICIT~ policy in [trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/][intellectual stance] : if you're smart, you're here ; if you're not here, you're ~THEREFORE~ dumb. and so following.
asciilifeform considered how to get 'naked' links to work, but concluded that it's prolly undecidable
asciilifeform: could, naturally, force ~any~ text found in the 1st clause of a [][] pair to linkify, but will give yet entirely diff flavour of brokenness in other cases
asciilifeform: incidentally, if anyone can think of a cleaner way to parse the 2 types of link ( [][] and naked htt.. ) than what's given in asciilifeform's reader.py , i'd like to hear about it. ( presently there's a quite ugly 2-step transform, as apparently it is impossible to regexp-transmute a grammar w/ 2+ patterns in 1 step )
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937909 - that's precisely the sort of tasks he got because yes, needs to do more reading and to do *better* reading; by the looks of it the US doesn't teach people how to read, somehow, it's rather unbelievable.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 15:12:25 mircea_popescu: could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
asciilifeform: achtung panzers! piz pipe down ?!
diana_coman: seems so
asciilifeform: paging BingoBoingo !
diana_coman: well, apparetly he was connected from piz too, lol
diana_coman: ossasepia.com (pizarro) is down too, yes
asciilifeform: dulap unreachable for 1st time since year+ ago when bb elbowed the mains cord
diana_coman: apparently back on
diana_coman: wb BingoBoingo !
diana_coman: asciilifeform: did the bot get out of sync now ?
asciilifeform: let's verify:
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 16:45:28 asciilifeform: let's verify:
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 17:01:14 asciilifeform: let's verify:
asciilifeform: no one spoke on other chans , and i turned the crank in time. but we're gonna want to automate these.
asciilifeform: pretty interesting outage, too, net pipe gone for 3min or so (boxes still up, so not mains failure)
diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw I was keeping a bit mum precisely to give you time to sync bot when I saw it went down first; then ofc everyone @piz went down
asciilifeform: diana_coman: loox like i'ma have to resync in #o tho.
asciilifeform: would be good if didn't have to be done w/ bare teeth, but i'ma do, brb
diana_coman: and yes, have to automate sync
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 15:54:49 diana_coman: well, syncing indices is gotta be automated not manual hunting though
asciilifeform: diana_coman: pretty strange, seems that they fell outta sync ~before~ this outage ?!
diana_coman: ugh; is that the first out of sync line?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: yours is missing a line somewhere >day ago
asciilifeform: snsabot dun appear to have missed any lines in #o during the mystery-outage
diana_coman: looking in my local log, there was no talk in #o between snsabot out/in
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: diana_coman: iirc you had a student write a db differ ? is this posted ? could then find why yours is missing 1ln
asciilifeform: mine appears to be 100% current ( haven't seen re lobbes's yet ) , diana_coman invited to pipe from there.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to make inquiry at piz house , see if they have an answer re dafuq , e.g. 'today we vacuumed the switch'
asciilifeform: wb BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: When was the event in question?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: roughly 10min ago
asciilifeform: moar precisely, tho, Sep 25 15:52:30 * snsabot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) << from asciilifeform's local (new york time) log
asciilifeform: asciilifeform noticed ~2m after
asciilifeform: Sep 25 15:56:32 * trinque (~undata@unaffiliated/undata) has joined #trilema << marks end of outage.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Is there any clock drift on the machine that logged that?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nope, this is from a box asciilifeform physically sat on, gets reclocked regularly
asciilifeform: outage was ~4min long. asciilifeform did not even lose his shells. (tho was long enuff for fleanode)
asciilifeform: i.e. defo not a mains current outage.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, BingoBoingo fwiw smg servers did not reset so certainly not overall mains outage
BingoBoingo: Definitely no mains outage happened
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aha, dulap likewise not reset
asciilifeform: the likely thing is that someone somewhere physically moved a plug.
asciilifeform: ( when asciilifeform was a sysop, never took 4 whole min to move a live cable. but whoknows, orcs )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will take a look and send a note.
asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: fwiw it's possible that the 'hm, i'ma unplug, then go smoke, and then plug in' took place upstream of piz.
mircea_popescu: o look, linux being reclaimed already
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 15:07:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937913 << btw these need the 'htt...' for the parser to fire
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937932 << i suspect it's quite deliberately systematic, actually.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 15:27:04 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937909 - that's precisely the sort of tasks he got because yes, needs to do more reading and to do *better* reading; by the looks of it the US doesn't teach people how to read, somehow, it's rather unbelievable.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 15:12:25 mircea_popescu: could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the way i read it, he starts with rhetorical 'but how could be political' then proceeds to show entirely edible concrete example
asciilifeform: i.e. demonstrates that understands answer is 'yes, noshit'
asciilifeform: ( or did mircea_popescu divide by 0 an' crash before got to that part..? )
asciilifeform brb,teatime
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, on reread yes, i see it.
mircea_popescu: did not crash, but i do parse.
diana_coman: on the other hand, since he's been apparently slaving away in web-shitstack & python for ages, he'll have a stab at the multi network bridging thing; we'll see if he cuts or breaks his teeth on it
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-19 05:39:18 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, an' considering we're apparently stuck with a buncha chrises over here : any of your resident knights capable of registering a chan on ~any other network~ and writing the bridge code on top of extant bot already ?
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937949 << funny, i had been describing this sorta issue for a while ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 16:46:54 asciilifeform: pretty interesting outage, too, net pipe gone for 3min or so (boxes still up, so not mains failure)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yours was specific to dulap ( where phuctor db was being walked just as mircea_popescu happened to load ) , recall that other boxen were unaffected
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this 1 was a piz-wide outage.
asciilifeform: i recall 1 previous similar, ~30sec long, last yr
mircea_popescu: still could benefit from more reading. "hoi polloi" for instance is a syntagma with great english history.
asciilifeform: picture is consistent with 'monkey unplugged then went to smoke', i.e. 100% packet loss for ~4m.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, hm, perhaps so.
asciilifeform: wb hanbot
hanbot: howdy
asciilifeform bbl:meat
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937958 - damn it, made me write a bash+awk to fish it out ffs, line 1001471
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 17:10:20 asciilifeform: diana_coman: yours is missing a line somewhere >day ago
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-25 10:05:45 mircea_popescu: it'll benefit the nooblets immensely if they seriously spend some time groking the "turn" thing. there's a time for everything ; and for most things that time isn't NOW.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 16:45:28 asciilifeform: let's verify:
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:01:23 asciilifeform: let's verify:
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
asciilifeform: oh hey neato
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plz consider to put said bash+awk in 'contrib' dir of vtree
asciilifeform: lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
asciilifeform: ( granted this only worx if there's no conflicting tail, i.e. you get to the console just in time. failing that, (presently) gotta drop the conflicting tail in db before snarfing )
asciilifeform: was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
asciilifeform: if choose 'confirm' then eats all changes req'd to get to 'identical' .
asciilifeform: another method would be that periodically tests against loggers given in config, and pm's operator if and only if finds divergence.
lobbes: in general auto-sync would be nifty. but just like the manual method, would need to wait until "dead time" to prevent new lines appearing during the sync wouldn't it?
lobbes: or perhaps I'm missing something
asciilifeform: lobbes: not if it knows how to drop the broken tail
asciilifeform: lobbes: 'tail' here being whatever lines come after the gap, and thereby have erroneous index #s
lobbes: ah okay. that makes sense
asciilifeform: currently this is a gnarly manually-cranked process, as ./eat_dump.py deliberately is made so ~not~ to import any line that conflicts with existing index
asciilifeform: ( could of course add a cmdline param to it, to enable overwrite )
asciilifeform: thing is -- imho it is poor practice to blindly pick another logger and overwrite massive chunk of own db with it w/out mechanically testing that they diverge strictly in favour of the other
asciilifeform: otherwise you could easily end up importing the other logger's hole vs yours
asciilifeform: so far all the gaps have been small enuff to visually examine, but this will not necessarily remain the case
asciilifeform: mechanical diffing, meanwhile, is tricky because ordering is already known to differ ( almost guaranteed to differ when bots are speaking, one's own bot's output ~always~ enters log before that of other bots ; but also can differ elsewhere on acct of fleanode weather )
lobbes: hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
asciilifeform: hence why imho resync ~must~ be a semi-automatic, rather than automatic, process.
asciilifeform: lobbes: it's 1 of the reasons why asciilifeform did not like mircea_popescu's original tip re how to bake logger ('just pipe it into a wp') ; but mircea_popescu did specifically ask for 1 that does exactly that, for own www, i presume he knows what he's doing
lobbes: yeah, I'll guess I'll let the man speak to if he wants sync capabilities in the mp-wp-tronic branch
asciilifeform: lobbes: as i understand, with that type of logger you'd have to regen all of the pages that include or follow the gap, in order to close a filled gap.
asciilifeform: ( and to do it very quickly, else someone could easily speak during the regen, and leave you unsynced again )
lobbes: indeed. Would just be a buncha "update" statements that fill in the proper lines. As it currently is designed, I have it spitting lines into a flat file first, and that file is used to update the "current day's log" post as new lines are seen
lobbes: in theory, could index the lines in that file, so as to preserve ordering, as well as keep more than one file (currently, this one file is overwritten on each new day)
lobbes: but idk, perhaps this is more complex than MP wants it to be
asciilifeform: lobbes: see what mircea_popescu says when wakes up.
asciilifeform: imho a logger that can't resync at all, aint much of a logger. but at the same time i dun see why a generate-statics logger couldn't be made to resync. simply a bit moar complicated.
asciilifeform: it'd be a 1st class bitch to resync ~from~, however. but fortunately we have other types of loggers that know how to emit lines x..y for given x/y
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938022 << emerging sync language from the fact we use bots, rather than not. mindblowing.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:02:13 asciilifeform: was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:12:27 lobbes: hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
mircea_popescu: loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
mircea_popescu: this whole pile is however a massive lesson in evolution-vs-design thematics & tropes ; that "the function creates the organ" is musky throughout ; the blogger's retrospect ("had i not done x it'd never have occured to me to do y") omnipresent ; and so following.
mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
mircea_popescu: the problem with people isn't a problem with people, but with infinities : realia is somewhat infinite ; idealia is MUCH more infinite than that (whole thing neatly mirrors the cardinality of power sets, actually).
mircea_popescu: for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938053 << ideally would pipe it into sumthing like a table layout, so can select w/out repeatedly including speaker indicator per line e.g. 'mircea_popescu:'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:38:22 mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
asciilifeform: would also make merging cut-up lines 9000x easier
asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
asciilifeform: sorta how mircea_popescu does when writes article featuring log segment
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:52:01 mircea_popescu: for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
asciilifeform: in related grrs, asciilifeform recently attempted backport of mircea_popescu's selector knob to own wp, but broke teeth cuz it dun know how to cross paragraphs, and i have '9000' multi-para selections, esp. in ffa series where coad
asciilifeform: so atm still using old, barbaric selector.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938050 << if you dun actually store the raw irc lines somewhere, sync ~from~ your logger becomes suddenly quite nontrivial.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:00 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 19:57:41 asciilifeform: lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
asciilifeform: can't think of any reason not to ~display~ them as mircea_popescu described tho
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 << iirc he described , 'cheated' by running a znc somewhere and so happened that at no point both fell down simultaneously ( just as e.g. snsabot and ossabot not yet fell down together )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 05:08:58 mircea_popescu: billymg, did you ever find the trilema article re how to re-do your missed pingbacks ?
billymg: just found it now and read it over, did not know mp-wp trackbacks were broken in this way
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938061 << prolly oughta add to this tho : fleanode not infrequently reorders lines , so might end up with some shuffled if doing this
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:23:37 asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
asciilifeform: the other thing, the adhoc traditional line select is human-friendly, very fast to grab a line url, whereas mircea_popescu-style selector less so, gotta find unique start/end text, when citing from trilema it usually takes asciilifeform 2-3 shots to nail down the correct snip
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:54 mircea_popescu: loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
asciilifeform: incidentally, if yer going full throttle w/ selectables , the Right Thing imho would be to take it all the way and make items like this actually display (if reasonably compact.. config knob?) the linked text. a la old man ted nelson's 'transclusions' concept .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:25:37 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938057 << >> oblig naggum
asciilifeform: another thought : the display of literal machine-readable links verbatim in log, is quite wasteful, and if yer doing a whole-page transform, quite avoidable. why not make the cited text the displayed part of the clickable link (and orig. url -- the machine part when same is clicked) .
asciilifeform goes to construct example...
asciilifeform: this becomes : that .
asciilifeform: ^ in this example, as we're using line-based selector, cites whole line. but if used fine-grained selector, could cite the selection.
asciilifeform: result is imho not only moar compact ( why throw the ' http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 ' to the screen ? ) but moar readable .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
asciilifeform: for folx who give a shit 'via what bot? was the citation' -- can put that in 'hovertext' .
asciilifeform: if finally throwing out the ancient kakobreklic format for logger display, wai not go full throttle.
asciilifeform: would have to make the wwwtron avoid displaying bot echoes tho ( theoretically one'd still want bot echoes , to see wtf is going on when reading via live irc session rather than www )
asciilifeform: ... rapidly this becomes a headache, re historic logs where 1e6 times people cited specifically bot echoes
asciilifeform: this, rather like the 'url clocks' problem, demands a 'smart' transmutation of old l0gz, somehow, in order to work 100% correctly.
lobbes: aha, I was just about to mention the bot echos
asciilifeform: ftr we still haven't a pill for the url clocks problem.
asciilifeform: ( it is preventing import of era1 )
asciilifeform: imho all of this is a++ illustration of how even in very small, conceptually (vs. e.g. ye olde c/gcc/linux orchestra) system, 'legacy' retardation gets firmly baked in and very difficult to entirely remove.
asciilifeform: ancient problem, sorta how the j00z ended up with a talmud in 4 langs
asciilifeform: (couldn't agree on translation of n-1th ea. time they got hard-reset)
asciilifeform: so things could, i suppose, be worse, era1 could be in aramaic!111
ericbot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:14:00 asciilifeform: trinque: basic desired scheme is http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931395
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 11:35:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931353 << phf yer missing the point , i need so that http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758070 AND http://btcbase.org/log/1945-07-16#758070 go to same thing !
asciilifeform: ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
asciilifeform: this problem, incidentally, if not cured, will persist in a hypothetical mircea_popescu-style pregenned-pages logger.
asciilifeform: because currently no 2 logotrons actually agree on what reich.time it is.
asciilifeform: nor is there likely ever gonna be any such agreement. use of reich time gotta be made 100% decorative, or to go away entirely.
asciilifeform: even to actually use the unix epochal time, is dodgy. cuz, again, no 2 tmsr boxes are ever likely to come to an accurate agreement re what unix.epochtime it is 'now'.
asciilifeform: so , say you have a logger of whatever type (either traditional or mircea_popescuine) and 2 of these dun agree re when a day ended -- bang, you get links that dun lead to the desired text. cuz they try to use the fucking date.
asciilifeform: the historic epochtimestamps are incidentally all over the place, try setting a scratch box logger to sort ~by time~ some time and weep. ( from when phf , for instance, imported his znc, evidently wasn't 100% synced to the primary logger ; and elsewhere )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937945 for instance diverge by 15m. and that's today. month from nao, prolly will diverge by 30, or worse
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 17:01:14 asciilifeform: let's verify:
asciilifeform: the heathens pretend that they 'solve' this via ntpism. but, characteristically of heathenisms, it dun fucking solve anyffin, is a 'can't believe it aint butter!' pressed sawdust 'solution'.
asciilifeform: with ntpism they give up not only sovereignty (washington gets to tell you 'what time it is') but monotonicity !
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:27:50 asciilifeform: ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
asciilifeform bbl, gotta get fresh air
lobbes: lol, my bots' identities are merging with my own
lobbes: in the mircea_popescuine logger, though, all links will use the server-side-selectory-style. By definition those links will never agree with the traditional loggers since the latter can't span arbitrary lines / text
lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
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