phf: i was confused by the correctness/fairness thread, until i realized that the use of the word "fair" has changed to its complete opposite from the traditional western use. in folklore fair is a sometimes begrudging recognition and internal compromise of correctness: something is not to your liking, but it's fair, i.e. correct
phf: fair has been since long hijacked by socialist, so preoccupation with fairness is an indicator
mircea_popescu: hey Mocky_ how's the hunt going ?
mircea_popescu: phf the folk fairness you think of is purely eastern. western fairness was always female-driven, and socialistically flavoured.
mircea_popescu: east of the hajnal line, "fair" means "it's true i'm a poor peasant who needs this chunk of bread, yet the devil saw it first and well... fair is fair"
mircea_popescu: west of the hajnal line, however, "fair" is exclusively found in "it's not fair that old man's daugther do all the work while old woman's daugthers get all the praise"
mircea_popescu: and yes, the distinction is very specifically driven by the "marriage patterns", ie, western franks allowing women much more choice in mating (resulting predictably in a large contingent of unmated females, a larger still contingent of mated-once, and a much later first mating overal). all this produces a lot of idle time to waste wringing wrists.
mircea_popescu: nicoleci it occurs to me summarizing may be not the best use of your time. how about you switch to some http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-04#1878206 instead ?
a111: Logged on 2018-12-04 00:58 asciilifeform: i dun expect these will ever be OCR'd, hand-typesetted-cum-diagrams newtonola is possibly a bridge too far for ocr.
mircea_popescu: pick one article from there (preferably -- something interesting!), and make a post of it. transcribe it correctly, include all images (cleanned up if they need it ; or restated as http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-html-math/ if practicable) and there you go.
asciilifeform: oh guten morgen mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: i wake up, with a bladder fulla pee and a bladder fulla words. and more than half the time it's the 2nd that actually makes snoozing impossible.
mircea_popescu: modern man eh.
asciilifeform still grinding through htmlization of ch14, grr
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trilema readership has an idea for you! http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-html-math/#comment-127197
BingoBoingo: !!gettrust cruciform
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i saw the plugin thing earlier. it has exactly same problem as latex-by-hand -- bitmapism, resulting in nonsearchable and nonseeable-in-lynx etc text
asciilifeform: if i were writing for dead tree, would've latexed long ago. but i aint
mircea_popescu: but you ~could~ add the actual latex source as an alt tag on the image, resulting in... searchable, and viewable in [correctly working] lynx.
asciilifeform: alt-tags aint searchable in graphical browser
asciilifeform: i want searchable-errywhere.
mircea_popescu: there's no way out of this, alf : inasmuch as "math" is not fully alphabetic (as it isn't, because it includes procedural items as well as characters) you WILL HAVE TO add some notation to your "text".
mircea_popescu: and the way this wound will heal is exactly thus : properly adnotated math that then is properly rendered WHERE TERMINALS WORK
mircea_popescu: and there only.
mircea_popescu: don't try to fix people's terminals from across the cable.
asciilifeform: if html centralcommittee had been slightly less retarded, we could've had bitmaps with searchable backing text; or font-height attribute; or any number of 1 thing that'd cure the retardation. but so happens that they were dropped as children, and so we have this.
mircea_popescu: nevermind that. really nobody cares what the empire does.
asciilifeform: i care strictly when stuck cleaning up the splatter with own hand.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other tardations, re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-11#1879893 >> the radiographers all seem to want 2-3k. which is lulzy, cuz for half of that one can simply buy the machine..
a111: Logged on 2018-12-11 23:38 asciilifeform: in older lulz, 1d 18h left on the https://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-MacIvory-model-3-8-MW-in-an-Apple-Quadra-650-80-MB-9-GB-Genera-8-3/113428507092 auction; i'ma bid, and if can get for under 5 , will have the thing xray tomographied ( sadly i have a quite finite budget presently for the proj )
mircea_popescu: so do the sane thing, make bitmap with latex tag, and be done with it.
asciilifeform: so happens that already wrangled the heaviest piece into shape
mircea_popescu: tbh im not even sure what we want for a web scripting language is php, ie, "text preprocessor"
mircea_popescu: what we really want is probably some derivation of latex.
mircea_popescu: i utterly don't need a scriptable wrapper to do string manipulation, what the holy shit is this, onyl someone who grew up on c strings can imagine such nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if had browser that eats sane sexpr instead of the customary shitsoup, good % of what folx want in 'processor' falls away
mircea_popescu: nfi what they were thinking when they came up with the <tag> bs.
asciilifeform: whole thing is fractally retarded
mircea_popescu: srsly now, who farted that low level abstraction ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ibm.
mircea_popescu: sounds like one of the fet tards.
asciilifeform: recall, sgml committee.
mircea_popescu: "oh, arbtrarily placed tags that sometimes close"
mircea_popescu: and the thing that truly gets my goat, is that all this inane "simplicity -- computers have to do the work for people" reinterpreted as "computers have to do the work to compensate for utterly destructured psychogenic noise -- and you have to write the assurance software for the software they run" was only pushed in the first place so "accessible" because then "more people get involved". forgetting all the while that the "peo
mircea_popescu: ple" symbol in that "more people get involved" does NOT denote ~actual~ people. it denotes the sort of people who need a computer to think for them in order to participate in intellectual affairs. ie, NON!!!!-people!
mircea_popescu: and then here we fucking are.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the computer should make snails fly, so that it makes flight accessible to snails, so that there's more birds around which will make even more computers even better bla bla bla".
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, all that builds is a large contingent of snails who think they can fly, which is PRECISELY technological debt.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck do i want to carry through the world a huge pile of tech debt ?
asciilifeform sorta has entire www on subj..
mircea_popescu: there's no fucking benefit, the world was better off when there were four computers about total and the fucktarded secretutes sucked dick in office bathrooms instead of derping about how "you don't understand computers" because their stupidphones cut off fields silently and THEY ARE TOO FUCKING STUPID TO REALISE this is a problem, and specifically of theirs...
mircea_popescu: and then of course also lack the meta-cognitive capacity to realise that this is simple metonimy, the stupidphone doesn't do that just to one filed that's "too long", but to ALL FIELDS. which is how they end up with notions about "#metoo" and etcetera.
mircea_popescu: holy shit, fractally retarded.
asciilifeform: mechanization + idiocy == mechanized idiocy, noose at 11
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea who thought accessibility is a good idea.
mircea_popescu: the world, not as a sum, but throughout, each-individual-component-as-well-as-all-groups-of-components, is worse off for computers being more accessible thusly.
asciilifeform: ( see also e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-185.841-185.1259 )
mircea_popescu: and no, showing me the sweet leet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Camp_Lazear_Wellcome_L0000010.jpg they've built by hammering in nails with that microscope doesn't fucking impress.
asciilifeform: the other detail is that -- unsurprisingly -- the item that became 'accessible' is typically closer to electro-dildo, while actual comp is less gettable than it's been since early '80s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform word.
asciilifeform: in su folx would sometimes secretly repair a crippled 'demilitarized' museum rifle; turning a current-day pc into actual comp is actually ~harder~ procedure than this
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-02#1877837 << no, see, "you only think that because you're old".
a111: Logged on 2018-12-02 18:33 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in today's dose of elaborate #metoo #thinker files, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/x4Yp0/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: i wonder how many people ignored the dumbass before she formed the notion that the problem isn't her being stupid -- but other people being old.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/theresa-may-no-confidence-vote-coming-tonight/ << Qntra -- Theresa May No Confidence Vote Coming Tonight
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hey, seems in the ruckus we forgot a lulzy piece : https://news.stanford.edu/2018/12/06/shoucheng-zhang-obituary/ (stanford ablates 55 yo nobel winner physicist because too chinese).
mircea_popescu: "In lieu of flowers, his family has asked that gifts in Zhangs memory be made to Stanford University".
mircea_popescu: give usg.stanford some money why don't you.
mircea_popescu: (dood had some bitcoin investment, and was diddling the kidnapped woman, is the idea).
asciilifeform: i mailed it in as a qntra fodder the other day
mircea_popescu: a cool.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you busy ?
asciilifeform: quite busy with c14. why
mircea_popescu: wanna start a discussion of http://www.loper-os.org/#selection-37.0-65.730 ? seems to me mature.
asciilifeform: link b0rked
asciilifeform: ( recall bug )
asciilifeform: reload pg plox & rebake?
mircea_popescu: the On the Free Software movement quote. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-37.0-65.730
asciilifeform: pretty sure we had 5 or 6 thrds re that one snip
asciilifeform: got new observation ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, let's delve.
mircea_popescu: so, on one hand, he is entirely correct in saying that useful work has to be paid, and whether its abstract work or digging ditches makes no difference. there's nothing special about writing software "that millions will use" (ie, generality) -- because the writer can get sick, and the person handling sick people will HAVE TO drop what they're doing and instead look at deeply similar splotches on a screen and say ~specific~ wo
mircea_popescu: rds that are only applicable or interesting to his own particular case.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu asciilifeform Got burried in ruckus, Going to try to write it up
mircea_popescu: since the doctor's entitled to some compensation to even out his opportunity cost, the dilemma naggum presents is quite soundly footed : "get sick for a while, see". and plenty of other items go just this way.
mircea_popescu: now, conversely -- it is impossible, leaving aside how it is impracticable, to try and make software "secret". from the color of bits to what have you, the notion that you can somehow wrangle ~a concrete, objectified representation~ of the abstract in question to "carry value" is also broken.
mircea_popescu: which is his mistake, he thinks "code has value" is approachable in the terms of "fish has value". but fish has value per line, and code does NOT have value per line. in fact -- each extra pound of fish increases the value of the fish cache ; but every extra line of code DECREASES the value of the code cache.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from reading of whole naggum corpus, i am under impression that he certainly knew this.
mircea_popescu: there's a further, important element that he neglects. specifically -- consider slavery.
asciilifeform: ( and knew that most extant software has ~negative~, in particular, value )
mircea_popescu: suppose, as a thought experiment, we are now in charge of the world. we are to say how it is to be run.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:15 asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating ancient thread -- 'the best machine is no machine', it weighs nuffin, needs no maintenance. and the best proggy, is no proggy at all, if a problem can be solved without writing proggy, it ought to be. erry line of coad can be rightfully pictured as an act of intellectual littering. y'know, like throwing cig butt or bottle on the ground in the park.
mircea_popescu: there's a female born, somewhere in the indistinct midwest. aged 16, she correctly [yet without having read it] applies the http://trilema.com/2013/whore-strat/ "what female is supposed to be", ends up enslaved by some guy, whom we'll call avik.
mircea_popescu: now let's look at this system : it's not nicole's place to judge her master avik ; separated from this her master avik is a moron. is it our intention that everything should stand as it fell ?
mircea_popescu: and you can't say "she should read trilema and figure shit out". a slave doesn't have this, a slave will do what random moron tells them to, which i guess would be going to college or some shit.
asciilifeform: somehow it dun bother anybody that avik's spleen cannot judge that he's a moron and walk away
asciilifeform: not errybody gets to 'judge'
mircea_popescu: if, in point of fact, code is kept under wraps, you are, in point of fact, forcing the world into a "things lay where they fell" scheme, and slavery becomes untenable (and deeply something i can't support).
mircea_popescu: open code has this fundamental capacity, of doing for you what my fetlife bots do for me.
mircea_popescu: passive, yes, but everyone who is here is here ~because they read code~, not because they didn't.
asciilifeform: in practice the friction of 'closed' is finite. bolix is as closed as it gets and i'ma still rape it.
mircea_popescu: as you well should.
mircea_popescu: so in short -- naggum's dilemma must be resolved ~without~ closing the code.
mircea_popescu: which seems to me contrary to what he's advocating.
mircea_popescu: but open code is rather the direct underpinning of items like http://trilema.com/2016/i-am-firmly-against-universal-franchise/
mircea_popescu: something like that utterly can't stand UNLESS "the logs are right there, what've you been doing".
asciilifeform: my impression is that he was motivated moar by http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-453.0-453.732 + http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-145.292-145.611 than 'pay me pay me'
asciilifeform: fwiw ~nuffin of lasting value that asciilifeform learned about programming came from reading gnu hairballs.
mircea_popescu: probably. still -- notice how ~easy~ it is for us to discard pointless items, howsoever "friendly" they might be.
asciilifeform: ( mostly, in fact, came from reading material written by folx who lived half century or longer without touching a comp )
mircea_popescu: i believe.
mircea_popescu: yet i do not agree with his "destroy value" view.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside my observation of anyone else's experience -- the "here's mp-wp codebase" has not appreciably destroyed something as far as i can tell.
mircea_popescu: it seems deeply boneheaded to believe publication destroys value, a sort of harlan elinson tack.
asciilifeform: the gnu folx 'destroyed' plenty, by sheer volume of noise swamping signal.
mircea_popescu: (by which i mean, specifically "i know i'm a hack, and i know i have a finite time until they figure it out, so the more i make while saying the least -- the better")
mircea_popescu: guy always had a very early-steamengine/textilemill-engineering flavour to me
asciilifeform: ellison's entire life consisted of this. sorta how d00d became infamous lobbyist for 'eternal copyrights' etc
asciilifeform: quintessentially american writer.
mircea_popescu: and all my reservations re naggum, historically, came from this elinson flavour i here and there detected.
mircea_popescu: but it's chiefly around this sort of misstatements, "oh, open code destroys value".
mircea_popescu: now, none of this is an argument for ~all code forever open~. there's no all comers here, and indeed the overwhelm factor is a problem.
mircea_popescu: but the web (metaphorically, the spider web of existence) has to be and remain traversable from the outside.
asciilifeform: let's recall the hole that naggum sat in. d00d tried to make living by actually solving tricky problems for folx willing to pay ( oil, gas, jurisprudential db people, etc ) . found that it became harder and eventually impossible on acct of various factors, incl. the lemonization of the market by shitgnomes, asinine eurotaxation regimes, etc
mircea_popescu: otherwise, what we're building will collapse. and i can prove it, too -- very much goedelian crunch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform our friend avik does the same, believe it or not.
asciilifeform: then saw the very tools of his trade vanishing, as the commercial lisp people slowly starved cuz idjits went 'let's hire 9000 java monkeys, freeeee tooling'
mircea_popescu: ie, i would propose as a foundational myth, "avik killed naggum". there's something here.
asciilifeform: ~the~ foundational q, imho, of software having a non-zimbabweistic future -- is whether avik can be prevented from killing naggum.
mircea_popescu: the problem doesn't need to be stated in terms of "oil, gas" bla bla, "let's imagine adults still exist somewhere". this dork works for a packaging manufacturer, but the problem's evident from the "small business owner" - "web expert" interactions, well documented online.
mircea_popescu: the domain specialist is uniquely unqualified and deeply unable to hire computer expert.
mircea_popescu: which is why hospitals don't let you choose the shaman.
mircea_popescu: ~they~ choose the shaman.
mircea_popescu: to bring this full circle : the perceived difference between particularizing (doctor) and generalizing (computer scientist) abstract work is entirely hallucinated. the ~only~ way to correctly pay for abstract work is as allocations from crown.
asciilifeform: !#s pay sunlight
asciilifeform: ^ see also
mircea_popescu: copyright is a deeply dysfunctional, dumb and braindamaged attempt to "open" the crown allocation process.
mircea_popescu: (above, generalizing work is work that done once serves many ; particularizing is work which has to be done every time, and each time according to a standard).
mircea_popescu: note how the "solution" idiots came up with (and failed to verbalize) was exactly "consultancy", ie, "we'll live off the value of the particularizing tail of our generalizing workl"
mircea_popescu: this dun fucking work in practice, for the reasons obvious from the proper formulation.
asciilifeform: sometimes abstract work is done by kamikazes who do it from principle, at the expense of sleep and walks in park, the way asciilifeform bakes e.g. ffa. but in general yes , it simply dun happen because nobody pays.
mircea_popescu: and so here's how feudalism becomes inescapable : man will have to get sudan or w/e land (plus the attached bipedal or multipedal livestock) in exchange for having written republican smgl or w/e.
asciilifeform: ( or happens as side effect of 'particulars' )
mircea_popescu: because there's strictly no other way.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and sometimes, the salvation of slaves comes from reading trilema instead of sleep and so on.
mircea_popescu: yes, upwards social mobility only ever works this way.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hence naggum's formulation 'open softs are a surplus phenomenon'
mircea_popescu: but that's incorrect. ~thoguht~ and especially ~abstract work~ is a surplus phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: because it's what it is, if you're hungry go farm, if you're lonely go spawn. if you're nothing in particular -- which is to say, if you're finally human -- how about you do something useful finally.
asciilifeform: well yes, anyffing published without expectation of moolah, is 'surplus phenomena', whether theorem or proggy or symphony etc
mircea_popescu: that's the confounding approach there.
mircea_popescu: it's a case of wheel powering engine again. all abstract work is a surplus phenomena because the surprlus predates the work. not because "we're poor, but we hope to pay the bills by thinking".
mircea_popescu: but because "eh, whatever, fridge's too full anyway, let's do somethjing interesting today".\
asciilifeform: i did say 'without expectation of moolah' neh
mircea_popescu: the thinking by which you hope to pay the bills, that's how you get C and mass marketed "films".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the timing's wrong. without ~need~.
mircea_popescu: it's not that you don't expect it ; it's that you don't need it.
asciilifeform: well yes. singing on street corner with hat 'please throw a penny' is not 'from surplus'
asciilifeform: or because likes to sing
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/stanford-garbage-collects-chinese-professor-investor/ << Qntra -- Stanford Garbage Collects Chinese Professor Investor
mircea_popescu: doctor does not sit in er room going "i hope someone shows up or else i starve".
mircea_popescu: because that's not a state of mind conducive to doctoring in the first place.
mircea_popescu: doctor goes "well... i guess i could sleep... but i dun feel like it... or i could farm... meh farming... let's see if there's something interesting to do".
mircea_popescu: this is not ~formally~ what happens, for purely coincidental reasons. it is ~fundamentally~ what happens, which is why it's important.
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced that naggum would've disagreed with this formulation tho
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ie, i would propose as a foundational myth, "avik killed naggum". there's something here. << And he did it for (((packing))) Peanuts!
asciilifeform: ( and will add, it is ordinarily trivial to distinguish folx who theorem 'from causes' from the ones who 'for purposes' i.e. 'maybe someone throws penny into hat' )
mircea_popescu: so to sum all this up : naggum is right in that what he does can't be free. naggum is wrong in that the tangible expression of abstracts could have value (what next, doctor supports self by selling ultrasound drawings ?!) ; and moreover closed code in the copyright/microsoft sense makes the slaves&harem&wot world impossible.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's little sadder in creation than overstretched underachievers, "oh, i got perfect sat scores" "why ?"
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-01#1868473 + http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-07#1319527 )
a111: Logged on 2018-11-01 18:01 asciilifeform: i dun work for prizes, medals, mircea_popescu knows this.
a111: Logged on 2015-11-07 23:21 asciilifeform: 'Не надо мне пощады,не надо мне награды, / а дайте мне винтовку и дайте мне коня... / А если я погибну,пусть красные отряды, / пусть красные отряды отплатят за меня.' (tm) (r) (mega-classic)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sadly we'll never know what he'd have said, avik got to him first.
mircea_popescu: the only remaining open problem is, of course, valuation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1 of my nitpicks with the 'open/closed wars' people is the annoying fact of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-06#1793733
a111: Logged on 2018-04-06 21:12 asciilifeform: a 500k-loc ( ignoring even for a moment the far greater heft of 'modern' wonders ) c/cpp proggy is, for all intents and purposes, closed-source, even if every line is published, because it is quite impossible for anyone -- even author -- to get a proper grip on its behaviour space
asciilifeform: i.e. just about all of the problems of 'closed' world , were re-created on substrate of 'open', without anyone so much as deliberately trying
mircea_popescu: given a set of ("the place formerly known as sudan", "a monopoly on aviation", "the empire state building") and ("has written proper sgml", "heroically reversed bolix stack","found way to write without getting out of bed"), which is the correct matching ?
asciilifeform: for the d00d handing out the medals to decide, neh
asciilifeform: sorta why odin put him upon the green earth
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is ~exactly~ what i'm leveraging : ALL abstractions are "closed-source" by their very nature -- witness how cats don't read them. then let's use this natural barrier to select the future lordship.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the decision'd better make sense, which is to say, meaningful rather than arbitrary.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
mircea_popescu: i guess it'd better.
asciilifeform: i dun complain that, e.g., mircea_popescu pays for ice cream but not udplib, it's his dubloons, just as he dun complain that asciilifeform buys ice cream instead of euloratronium, errybody is master of own chest, large or small
asciilifeform: ( and it dun keep us from making mutually happy trades on other occasions )
mircea_popescu: this seems to me unrelated.
mircea_popescu: consider tomorrow emperor of china writes in, wants to give taiwan to republic as peace gift.
asciilifeform: the 1 occasion where related, is coupla instances in yrs past when asciilifeform's 'from cause' worx ground to a halt on acct of having to earn bread in saeculum, then asciilifeform rolls eyes at folx who 'motherfucker, where is the promised X/Y/Z'
mircea_popescu: taiwan will have to have a governor, and i will do what ? name the most capable ? the most bored ? suppose we do the medieval thing and separate the work from the benefice. then who gets the latter ? and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd hope that mircea_popescu knows how to drive a taiwan, cuz chances are that i'd wrap it around a telephone pole, lol
mircea_popescu: it is certainly a good thing emperor of china is not gifting taiwans right now. but the matter remains -- the reward for good work is generally more work in the same vein.
mircea_popescu: this is nice and dandy -- until someone actually needs some work of their own.
mircea_popescu: consider this taken to extremes : suppose the lordship's a few hundred, ie the most it can ever possibly take, and each are castles with hundreds of knights within and so on.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform falls sick, and he suddenly has 95 surgeons at his bedstand, because well known and respected and so on. meanwhile young'un dies somewhere i nsilence. asciilifeform could have readily dispensed with the spurious 95th surgeon, kept 94. but... power laws right, and http://trilema.com/2013/stage-n-bitcoin-exists/#selection-101.196-101.253
asciilifeform: this aint any moar avoidable than resistive losses in mains wiring
mircea_popescu: in short : the current system of allocating labour is offensively stupid ; and the rudiments of what we have here promise to work. but so far... spreading dun work!
mircea_popescu: to some degree.
mircea_popescu: the above "question of valuation" as well as the "it'd better make sense" readily translate into "give me resistive loss formula".
mircea_popescu: they're statements of the same problem.
asciilifeform can speak only for self, but on various occasions risked piggy bank to try an' convert from serf to d00d who '100% worx from cause', but on each occasion lost shirt. maybe other l1 folx will have better fortune, and sit on mt olympus with mircea_popescu , i dun presently expect to
mircea_popescu: where's this relate ?
asciilifeform: the allocations thing
asciilifeform: ( in case forgot, asciilifeform spends 80+% of time on perpetrating saecular warcrimes in microshit land, rather than anyffing useful )
asciilifeform: so, asciilifeform's resistive loss is ~80%.
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's a whole other can of intricate strange. i wasn't gonna address it till as you say, some l1 folks move on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's is, let's suppose, 1%, however much time he spends tying his shoes and operating the levers of his outer empire
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah, that's not at ALL what was meant by "resistive loss". what was meant was, some labour wastage will occur through guy A getting 1.epsilon the work he needs while guy B getting 1-epsilon and perhaps dying for it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually the girls tie my shoes.
mircea_popescu: believe this or not, i reach such levels of chinese emperorhood.
asciilifeform: a+++ louis xiii
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the item you were thinking of, then, i'd call impedance mismatch loss, rather than plain resistive
asciilifeform: ( simply to nitpick!11 )
asciilifeform: in ye olde supercomp world, was known as 'process starvation'
mircea_popescu: however you call it. but it seems to me, which was the original driver, it seems to me naggum's dilemma illustrates a missing chunk rather than anything else.
asciilifeform: my impression when reading was that he was thinking of asciilifeform's variant of resistive loss. but possible asciilifeform's bias.
mircea_popescu: ie, "yes, that's untenable, but no this is stupid (and ultimately also untenable), so..."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you mean ?
asciilifeform: in his discussion where, approx, 'yes it's good and well that some folx sit and solve ~some~ problems in spare time from salt mine, but not all problems are susceptible to this treatment'
mircea_popescu: i don't think you were following my "suppose". let's do over.
asciilifeform rewinds tape..
mircea_popescu: suppose suppose the lordship owns the world, in all particulars, entirely. the last rebel was long ago executed. i can write to any and all doctors, "hey, please X". so can you. so can etcetera.
mircea_popescu: at this juncture, if the king falls ill every doctor in the realm will crowd the palace, and if the provincial governor of taiwan happens to need apendectomy he might even die.
mircea_popescu: so ~how~ do you signal optimal allocation.
mircea_popescu: and don't tell me "money". money is eminently broken in handling all this, proof positive being that if you get a hospital bill you can't say if it's correct or not
asciilifeform: right -- even if yer king, resources still finite. consider stalin's dilemma of whether to withdraw zhukov's army from far east. ( banked on zorge's report that jp will not break peace treaty, and withdrew 80% . but still had to leave some )
mircea_popescu: (if you get that x ray machine delivered, you can tell what % of socket power it wastes)
mircea_popescu: so this is what i thought we were discussing -- "some inefficiency necessarily part of world". yes, agreed -- but how much ?
mircea_popescu: whence ? and how much ?
mircea_popescu: and if you answer this, you necessarily answer "how to value work" as well as "what meaning has king's arbitrarity" and so on.
asciilifeform: sorta summarizes king's entire job description, neh
mircea_popescu: but the 1900s gold dubloons do NOT work for this. because lines of code, or "eyeballs upon cell cultures" are NOT like barels of fish.
asciilifeform: valuing people/works.
mircea_popescu: there's no market forces available.
mircea_popescu: it's perfectly find to "let market find price of steel hull ship".
asciilifeform: ( and , as asciilifeform is fond of observing, stalin's approach on many occasions performed 9000x better than merchant's dubloons approach )
mircea_popescu: it is very fucking dubious to imagine market will "find price" to tell naggum how much of his code-juju he has to give up to doctor.
mircea_popescu: which is ultimately the problem here -- note the orig formulation wasn't in "so many dollars" terms. it was very much nearly the http://trilema.com/2013/regarding-money/
mircea_popescu: he wants ~to be able to get other professionals to help him when he needs it~, he doesn't want "more dough" specifically and as such.
mircea_popescu: ie, he wants sufficient claim to fame as to make the "i'd like to live rather than die" proposition defensible. he doesn't even want money as such at all
mircea_popescu: (because money is like taiwan -- now you gotta drive)
BingoBoingo: !!invoice mircea_popescu 0.0216 nicoleci shared hosting annual
BingoBoingo: !!invoice mircea_popescu 0.0.0578066 S.MG test server monthly
mircea_popescu: and i suspect this fundamental intuition is what drives a lot of high socialism (like high protestantism, the nonsense among intelligent folks, as opposed to low) -- the intuition that the 1800 notion of money, perfectly adequate as it is for concretes, utterly fails on abstracts and what one needs is a lot more abstracts than concretes.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is that a new math ?
BingoBoingo: http://pizarroisp.net/shared-hosting/ << Updated, 10% discount on shared hosting for annual over monthly subscriptions now official
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo is that a new math ? << It is 0.002 x 12 with a 10% discount applied
mircea_popescu: my math only has one dot per number!
BingoBoingo: !!invoice mircea_popescu 0.0578066 S.MG test server monthly
BingoBoingo: Math reverted
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: money is shorthand, i.e. simply the 'binders' of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-165.74-165.439
asciilifeform: only numismatics want money 'per se'
BingoBoingo: !!v 57D0BD15B2C0608D4BA2E38CB0052DF3AD3953CB6DD330B8369736EE5BE87096
mircea_popescu: it seems to me what has happened here was, a certain notion of money got shoehorned into evolving practice with nary a thought given to what works how.
deedbot: Invoiced mircea_popescu 0.0578066 << S.MG test server monthly
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rather analogous to the lumped approximation of maxwell that engineers typically work with
asciilifeform: i.e. adequate inside certain boundaries, but generally wildly wrong
BingoBoingo: !!v 51DB5F3A673D0C84513440CC4783B4D6A44C8932949F21E370B75058DAE35E0A
deedbot: Invoiced mircea_popescu 0.0216 << nicoleci shared hosting annual
mircea_popescu: the money of http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-10#553680 und die hundert millionen in meinem schatz is eminently NOT the money of "$5 turn knob - $9995 know which" (i can't find teh logline nao)
a111: Logged on 2014-03-10 15:06 mircea_popescu: sie gonnen mir nicht Schlesien und die Grafschaft Glatz...
asciilifeform: aha, we had a a++ mircea_popescu thread re 'allocative vs subsistance functions of moneys'
mircea_popescu: quite. but it's clarifying in my head!
mircea_popescu: think about it -- they "pay" doctors, in fredericus rex dubloons, while they ALSO insist they... do what ? document their work, yes ? ie, construct the basis of wot-based payment.
mircea_popescu: it's stupidly kept "closed", but what do you want to know when talking to a doctor ? "the list of previous cases plox" right ? ie "wot ?"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile "money" in the dubloon sense is going away (certainly away from the hands of the plebs) to be replaced by... abstract version, plastic, db-money. so how does new man pay for doctor ? oh, he gives to hospital ~the voucher his place of employment gave him~.
mircea_popescu: ie, empire is doing exactly what we're discussing here, just, ineptly.
asciilifeform observed on numerous occasions that 'phree world' converged to exactly a 9000x less efficient version of ye olde su allocative structure
mircea_popescu: "why does joe have voucher hospital x accepts where moe does not ?" "cuz visa black platinum blalblabla" "wut ?" "his employer is in the wot and vouches for him!"
mircea_popescu: quite so!
mircea_popescu: aanyway. labour allocation is broken and nobody has any better.
asciilifeform cannot disagree
asciilifeform: wb Mocky
a111: Logged on 2018-12-11 20:09 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Also up for renewal are Mocky and nicoleci's shared hosting instances which you paid through December
Mocky: thx asciilifeform
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-12#1879959 painfully slow from my pov, got three phone interviews coming up but not on the calendar yet cuz peeps taking time off. a bunch more that I'm waiting to hear about.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-12 15:10 mircea_popescu: hey Mocky_ how's the hunt going ?
mircea_popescu: it occurs to me, pending how well this goes, that we could have a bourbaki
mircea_popescu: get it 500 remote jobs, can just do the work in here.
asciilifeform: that'd rock
asciilifeform: and could even be possible, if heathens weren't jawdroppingly retarded
mircea_popescu: i don't see why it wouldn't be possible, tbh.
mircea_popescu: certainly worth a try.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for my enlightenment, plox describe brief algo for 'try'
Mocky: why, cuz so many extra hands?
mircea_popescu: have a team of specialist appliers to jobs, dump all the task in some flatfile for you folks to pass around encrypted, and that's pretty much it.
mircea_popescu: whoever feels like doing some saeculum work that day draws a ticket.
asciilifeform: i dunno where in saeculum works are packaged in parcels like this ( outside of 'fiverr' )
mircea_popescu: remote job. you apply, you get it, right ?
Mocky: relatedly, i haven't even applied to remote jobs yet. hand cranking through local options still
mircea_popescu: Mocky i suspect "local job" is by now thin wrapper over "social security handout"
mircea_popescu: like ye olde su "capital job".
Mocky: in the past I've given serious consideration to arbitraging out my own secular tasks to indians or whathaveyou
mircea_popescu: right ?
mircea_popescu: i know this exists, whole outfits predicated on this scheme.
asciilifeform does remote, for yrs nao. but it's still packaged in the form of 'here's this 1 d00d, and we rub lamp and he grants wishes, with voice command'. nao conceivably ~someone~ ~somewhere~ aint ameri-tarded and actually packages ~work~, rather than 'we rent a d00d and command via voice' , but i haven't seen this with own eyes yet.
mircea_popescu: various small african/indian/etc towns fed this way.
trinque: aha, Mocky and Oracle both
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing wrong with still providing the bindings. what, so hard to pick up phone ?
asciilifeform: rright, but the ameri-afflicted will balk if diff voice each time.
BingoBoingo: !!invoice Mocky 0.0216 Shared hosting annual
mircea_popescu: so use same voice.
asciilifeform: so that means d00d does full-time neh
mircea_popescu: voice does full time.
asciilifeform: but even aside from ameri-tardation, generally they also want short-latency. ( what if nobody in bourbaki picks up ? )
mircea_popescu: well, this is why i never mentioned this earlier.
asciilifeform: how do you do 'voice full time' but other hands do the works, with short latency ?
mircea_popescu: i'd suspect we can possibly cover it by now. dunno.
BingoBoingo: !!v 44895C03E486B69D7CFC8DB1C235B2E311E73F7B0D3481D52518BD3CA64A0498
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i expect you're not hired out in stretches of fifteen minutes, like starvation whores.
deedbot: Invoiced Mocky 0.0216 << Shared hosting annual
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no, quite opposite
mircea_popescu: programmers are whores, but usually under a roof, not on the street.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then ?
asciilifeform: afaik items that actually cuttable into 15min packets are generally 'deskilled minwage' horror
asciilifeform: rather than anyffing anybody here would touch
mircea_popescu: you're so fucking obstructive, it's almost like your second nature in some fields.
asciilifeform: 'bridge will carry 50 tanks' 'but what about 51st' is sorta what asciilifeform does for living, lol
mircea_popescu: look, "short latency", what's that mean ? either it means you're cutting carrots one at a time, or else it means you don't, therefore perfectly possible to have a specialist phone robot.
mircea_popescu: now what's the problem ?
asciilifeform: i can speak only for self. but for instance asciilifeform , in saeculum, maintains a 100s-kloc winblowz atrocity. and this requires keeping it loaded into head. how would this go under mircea_popescu's scheme ? each d00d in bourbaki stuck also loading it ?
asciilifeform: ( and keeping the dev envir around, etc ) ?
mircea_popescu: nah. you're the only one that picks those sets of tickets.
asciilifeform: sorta what happens already lol
Mocky: my concern is that often it takes me a year to build an accurate enough mental model to be able to solve problem which prompted the lamp rubbing in a reasonable time
mircea_popescu: no. because already, you sit on ass not hunting for jobs while mocky isn't doing any work.
mircea_popescu: pooling works for this reason.
mircea_popescu: Mocky people get fired all the time, who gives a shit.
Mocky: but i'm totally down to give it a try (after employed). it's gonna be hoot!
mircea_popescu: your issue is you keep creating these unrequitted love relationships withj employers.
mircea_popescu: this scheme'd massively help your cognitive impairement.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly 0 reason to ever care about some dollar-holding schmuck.
asciilifeform: buncha dirt is also notaperson, but farmer -- stuck giving a shit re dirt
mircea_popescu: not in the sense of sticking with the farm after dust bowl event.
mircea_popescu: (the other thing that will come to light, of course, is that 364 days of that proverbial mocky year are sheer makework, of the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-12#1880272 type ; and the various "specific problems" that "employers encounter" entirely unspecific)
a111: Logged on 2018-12-12 19:02 mircea_popescu: Mocky i suspect "local job" is by now thin wrapper over "social security handout"
asciilifeform: farmer can certainly walk away from his dirt, but then is naked but for shirt on his back.
mircea_popescu: just as naked as was before.
Mocky: brb, recruiter call! pfft
mircea_popescu: "i have an employer" is the substance of the insanity here discussed. no, you don't HAVE jack. it has.
asciilifeform: in practice, they're scarce (esp. if impose the condition of no 'office commute' idjicies ). ~possibly~ for world-class specialists this aint so, i suppose i've never reached this level so cannot comment there
asciilifeform: took, e.g., asciilifeform , most of 2016 to find 1
asciilifeform: ( while sat in salt mine with ~0 juice available for productive tmsr worx )
mircea_popescu: this is a facet of what i'm saying : rather than have you "look for a girlfriend as best i can when i perceive i need one", how about you have a ~girl~ look for girlfriends ALL THE TIME, and you can pick one or a few when inclined.
asciilifeform: ( and in my experience the worx that actually pay, don't 1024chicken-ize at all )
mircea_popescu: ie, your problems, my dear farmer, come from the fact that you only try to kill cockroaches when "they get to be too many"
asciilifeform: in abstract yes -- this is why folx form consultancies
mircea_popescu: obviously a dishelved incel finally pushed to dating by desperation is going to produce less meat than a purpose-dedicated female, yes ?
asciilifeform would switch, in a heartbeat, to fulltiming at hypothetical tmsr consultancy, if it could be made to get off ground
Mocky: no mr. recruiter I don't have experience with Docker, as fun as that sounds
mircea_popescu: i expect if attempted it'll immediately run into the same problem pizarro is encountering, whereas bois will do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, no matter how patently stupid and laughing impending beheading in the face, just as long as it's NOT "talk to a lot of people".
mircea_popescu: whereas this, like that, like all other interface-the-empire things, require the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-28#1845274 centerpiece.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-28 22:27 mircea_popescu: and i do mean ~every single last one~. i talk to every single chick on fetlife, meaning EVERY SINGLE ONE. that's the job of existence. nothing else passes muster.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-12#1880271 -> I was under the impression that Mocky wasn't tied up /very happy in current place; why local /us anyway?
a111: Logged on 2018-12-12 19:01 Mocky: relatedly, i haven't even applied to remote jobs yet. hand cranking through local options still
asciilifeform: fetlife is a handy corral for gurlz. what'd be equiv, in mircea_popescu's eye, for this ?
mircea_popescu: "gotta start somewhere"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "handy" in what sense ? cuz you know from reading eg http://trilema.com/2015/okcupidcom-the-dating-site/ about ~all the others~ ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-19 01:51 mircea_popescu: ascii_lander, mod6 ben_vulpes the above q is serious, btw. have someone represent you on digitalpoint / whatever hosting forums ? or you deem it premature ?
asciilifeform: 'handy' in sense of 'here's this list of some-gurlz-some-elizas', for i in L... do '
mircea_popescu: no, "handy" in the sense of "mp already did the work of enumerating tghe venues so i can name one that's handy on those shoulders"
Mocky: when I look deeply enough into my pockets I see hunger about 6 weeks away, and my phone getting shut off and so I look for the closest solution at hand
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ( who iirc took this duty ) plox to comment re mircea_popescu's q ^
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ever thought about taking in a 50yo male slave, mediteranean complexion ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ikr.
diana_coman: not until now; thinking
mircea_popescu: well you got like six weeks...
asciilifeform pictures Mocky as diana_coman's butler
Mocky: hell no
Mocky: nothing personal!
Mocky: not looking for help to solve my own problems. I'll solve and then contribute solutions to other problems
diana_coman: might burn more than hunger for sure
diana_coman: Mocky, don't worry, nobody will ever help you against own wishes
mircea_popescu: Mocky you know, there's way worse fates than enslavement.
Mocky: doesn't appeal
Mocky: advice wise, i'm happy to accept help. action wise, I'll take the action
mircea_popescu: well then.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> no, "handy" in the sense of "mp already did the work of enumerating tghe venues so i can name one that's handy on those shoulders" << Out of tophost.com, hostingdiscussion.com, topsearch.com, warriorforums, and forums.hostsearch.com, it seems only Digitalpoint might be worth a revisit
mircea_popescu: what's a visit do ?
BingoBoingo: Well, a plumb, Most of these "hosting" forums maybe see 20 posts a year from the same 4 wankers spamming in a circle
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> what's a visit do ? << A visit allow a read of "Is anyone here", Was anyone here 2,4,5,10 years ago
mircea_popescu: why not just enumerate the userbase and message them all ?
BingoBoingo: Fuck it, why not try
BingoBoingo: ^ Any awk ninjas want to try this on a few forums?
asciilifeform: Mocky: fwiw i've rarely been >6mo of battery charge away from hunger ( and on the few occasions when were, blew it on attempt at jailbreaking out ) , and at times was 6wk also.
Mocky: anyway, I don't think specialist job applier is all that hard to do. tech companies are ripe for being gamed
Mocky: i'm past most of my frustration with it now, noticing their weaknesses. if you can code A* on a white board in 10 minutes with no errors while talking intelligently about their beloved frameworks, then not hiring you would be a struggle
asciilifeform: only problem is that they typically expect the d00d who drew on the board to later show up in their shithole 9-5
Mocky: tru, but once they want you, some will allow remote. They've got to fill those recs by the end of the quarter!
Mocky: plus many adverise remote to begin with
Mocky: for bonus points, train a black chix to be specialist job applier
Mocky: i've thought about brushing up on my ebonics to troll some interviews. show up in brand new nike airs and NBA jersey, use gangster analogies for everything while talking computer science like everybody knows that shit
mircea_popescu: i'd do it.
mircea_popescu: i make it a rule to never be the most frustrated/annoyed/etc one in the room.
mircea_popescu: if i'm pissed off, it just means someone else will have to be pissed off x2
mircea_popescu: so... "if you don't want to rue the day you were born, better make sure i'm not out looking for a job ever. i hate that shit."
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/vatican-finance-chief-cardinal-george-pell-convicted-of-sexual-abuse-in-australia-with-supression-order-barring-australian-reporting-on-conviction/ << Qntra -- Vatican Finance Chief Cardinal George Pell Convicted Of Sexual Abuse In Australia With Supression Order Barring Australian Reporting On Conviction
BingoBoingo: ^ A Lesser Podesta Convicted
mircea_popescu: keks wtf is this nonsense.
mircea_popescu: they had a secret session of #australia and everything ? lmao.
mircea_popescu: world of 6yos.
asciilifeform: lol seekrit trials
asciilifeform: au is a kinda beta test lab for cutting-edge nato reich retardations
asciilifeform: ( recall, they have 'great firewall' nao, etc )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> lol seekrit trials << Apparently the standard for trials in Australia is seekrit until appeal in order to "avoid biasing retrial juries"
BingoBoingo: But Austria apparently hasn't tried anyone worth the mention until now
asciilifeform: lemme guess, appeal trial also seekrit, 'to avoid biasing' n+1th appeal ?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> world of 6yos. << On the Cardinal's lap
asciilifeform: recursively, whole chain, from 1st trial to beheading, seekrit
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Puede Ser, I haven't given much though to Australia's Kangaroo Courts as a legal system to get involved in
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting for the next logical step of convergence to brezhnev's su, i.e. психушка instead of trial
asciilifeform: !#s психушка
a111: 16 results for "психушка", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%85%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it's a test bed for the rest of reich
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: So is Canada, NZ, UK, etc. Everyone of the five eyes is a test bed for the others
BingoBoingo: Or 5-eyes and a mouth (Phillipines)
BingoBoingo: And the local response to alt-Leprosy in Salto has been a dog purge https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/unos-600-perros-fueron-sacrificados-por-tener-leishmaniasis-2018121210112
BingoBoingo: An a rare non-performance after advance deposit case made the paper https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/pagaron-150-000-por-una-fiesta-de-15-pero-el-dia-previo-no-habia-salon-ni-la-confiteria-2018121119208
BingoBoingo: And in further inflating away the peso: https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/lanzan-emision-record-de-us-500-millones-en-el-mercado-de-valores-uruguayo--2018121213554
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/fbi-entraps-young-woman-into-terrorism-charges-by-becoming-her-entire-social-circle/ << Qntra -- FBI Entraps Young Woman Into Terrorism Charges By Becoming Her Entire Social Circle
trinque: whatever, fbi just wanted friends.
BingoBoingo: Ah, like that story where the frog ate the scorpion because that's just what they do. It's their nature to eat
mircea_popescu: top keks.
mircea_popescu: i imagine pantsuit.fbi is gonna start farming these, much like pantsuit.academia is farming "scholars" and pantsuit.tech is farming blackchickscode.
mircea_popescu: (conversely : there was a slavegirl in toledo, ohio none of you lazy bums got to in time.)
asciilifeform: !#s death ray
mircea_popescu: hey, "the message got cut off" has its effects.
BingoBoingo: Well, seems pretty clear they are just farming them now
asciilifeform finally grunted out & typeset new proof for ch14. nao for measure-77-times-cut-1ce..