danielpbarron: !!up anniez
deedbot: anniez voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: will do.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-05#1858751 << my preferred method is to `ssh -D 8080 host` which sets up a socks proxy with port 8080 on your local machine and outbound on the `host`. you can then configure e.g. firefox to send everything through that proxy
a111: Logged on 2018-10-05 22:25 Mocky: a lot of sites are blocked in qatar and i don't know if I'll need it but I'd like to run a web proxy on my pizarro shared hosting just in case. can someone make a recommendation? do I need something like tinyproxy or squid, or is there a way to do it without installing anything?
Mocky: right, ok
phf: i assume in this case your proxy is as secure as your ssh, you can do it on demand, and you can also run it against any of your remote hosts.
phf: it also helps to have a machine where you have ssh sitting on port 80, for when you are on e.g. hotel internet with a dumb firewall
mircea_popescu: of course, if the place you're in makes this necessary, it is MUCH better to set ssh on port 80 on the local machine and just proceed.
mircea_popescu: doh! i gotta take typing classes.
Mocky: yeah mircea_popescu, your level of text output needs a boost...
mircea_popescu: kids today and this sarcasm thing!
mircea_popescu: o yeah ?! WELL THE OCEAN CALLED...
phf: Mocky: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/gmsRV/?raw=true you could set these options in firefox's about:config (there's probably a way to do it through gui), they are self explanatory. the last one ensures that dns is routed through socks. the first one can be either 1 or 0. i usually just go into about:config and toggle that to 1 when i need socks (there are probably extensions, etc. etc.)
mircea_popescu: o hey, nice.
Mocky: oh thx phf
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in things that'll prolly need mirroring : https://backports.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page & http://drvbp1.linux-foundation.org/~mcgrof/rel-html/backports/ (lol).
phf: i learned to jump through these hoops for the motherland
mircea_popescu: brought about by y.t. fixing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854603 through generous application of sewed out linux-wireless-compat-blabla. turns out the aeteron pci board included (mysteriously dubbed "revision 0032") works with cca 2015 vintage drivers, and them only.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 00:18 mircea_popescu: in the end, useless hp box found new life as heroes 2 playstation.
mircea_popescu: by the looks of it, wireless cards on laptops work with os wireless drivers from a 3 to 6 months period around their release. gotta get teh right timing.
mircea_popescu: now, why the fuck would chamberlain choose to only publish a dozen or so of the compat modules, i couldn't guess. but the list there is woefully incomplete, the story goes back at least to 2.4 kernels.
diana_coman: I'll soon do the regrind of eucrypt to move it on to keccak hashes; my plan is to keep the patches precisely as they are otherwise (i.e. including NO manifest until I actually added it at the end); the way I see it, it's just a swap-in-place of one hash for another; if anyone sees this sort of thing differently - since I'm hmmm,first to regrind a big project? - yell now !
mircea_popescu: seems fine diana_coman
mircea_popescu: (nobody could really appreciate all the complex flavours of the shitpie that is linux until they learn that there 's ~an automated process~ to produce "compatibility" driver bundles for "old" kernels, out of the building blocks of two kernels and a driver. now -- ask to see the design papers of that item ?)
mircea_popescu: "but mp, you don't understand how the world works" "what is the meaning of '''new''' in the context of '''similar enough to old for this scheme to work''' "oh, it doesn't PROMISE to stay that way! this pile just works as long as it does!" "which isn't a promise ? and if it stops working, what, time for linux-backports-compat-compat, a set of scripts to update the set of scripts that updates...?" "YES!"
mircea_popescu: it's seem to me that by the semantics of the bizarro world these gnus inhabit, something working is a promise for that something to keep working. because the criteria by which they use things is "hey -- it works" ("we believe in rough consensus and working code", in in-universe terms), and therefore... everything that ever works thereby promises to keep on working indefinitely and for any possible usecase.
mircea_popescu: now, why the fuck they'd use an implicit grammar-lexicon bundle like this, i have no fucking idea. but the fact that they ~shouldn't~ (which they should not) is NOT opposable to me! since they do, i have my argument!
diana_coman: more like they don't have a notion of "working indefinitely" or even of more than tomorrow
mircea_popescu: which makes the whole item self-contradictory.
mircea_popescu: in the end, "foss" is not any more coherent, or intellectually respectable, than christianity.
diana_coman: oh, was it supposed to be coherent and not self-contradictory? I missed that part,lol
mircea_popescu: all the problems of computer "engineers" would be directly evident to any literary theorist / linguist / semiologist / gnoseologist / theorist of language / historian of philosophy / etcetera. except for the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1780289 problem, where they all preferred to chase the cuntherd instead of paying any attention whatsoever to the nonsense dribbling off the red stapler guys crowd.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 22:58 mircea_popescu: mod6 he has no idea ; it's not expensive considering what the actual cost per round is. add in all the capital costs, including the fact you're wasting your time there rather than diddling the local highschool girls' volleyball team...
mircea_popescu: so everyone who has any clue as to how any of this shit works and why is busy derping about "intersectional queeritude" among the DD/lg crowd of paci sucklers,
mircea_popescu: while humanity's greatest discovery slowly grow moss.
mircea_popescu: the soviet-ness of this epic wastage of resources is mindblowing.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to put some meat on the bones of "works with cca 2015 vintage drivers, and them only." : incorrect vintage drivers manage to literally fuck the chip, i have never seen dma errors before in teh logs, now have i seen chips refusing to turn back on and in general hardware level spew, "wrong mode d3", "error -5" etc.
diana_coman: perhaps; I'm not sure though that current theorist/linguist/semiologist/gnoseologist/etc necessarily knows what they are supposed to know
mircea_popescu: i almost felt like an alf for five minutes before running away screaming to the numeric method.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman the situation somewhat salvaged by the happenstance that you can't be any of those under about 60 years of age or so. (with exceptions, but they're rare enough).
asciilifeform misread earlier as 'seismologist' and scratched head for a while
mircea_popescu: semiology, theory of signs, signifying and significance.
phf: !#s umberto eco
asciilifeform: yes i know
asciilifeform: was waking up.
mircea_popescu: phf no that is the other one. semiology is the a c de saussure thing.
mircea_popescu: not that this distinction's with THAT much difference in context.
mircea_popescu: anyway. 1800s tech, is the idea.
phf: dangerous, restricted for your own safety
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, i could see the paralel between alf's (not entirely unsuported in practice) notions of "useful physics -- turn of the century, einstein-centric" and "useless physics -- string theory" and semiology/semiotics.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858800 << they switched the userland abi, but 2.4 continued to live ( i've found that i still have at least 1 device in service where not only 2.4, but 2.4 that post-dates the release of 2.6 ) for many years, as it was moar compact and suitable for small iron than 2.6 ( which had better support for e.g. smp , but overall hog vs 2.4 )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 14:33 mircea_popescu: (nobody could really appreciate all the complex flavours of the shitpie that is linux until they learn that there 's ~an automated process~ to produce "compatibility" driver bundles for "old" kernels, out of the building blocks of two kernels and a driver. now -- ask to see the design papers of that item ?)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun know if i have the keys to where they keep the real semiology ( if mircea_popescu says that it exists , i'll believe him ) ; as it is, i hear the word and think 'lacan' and reach for luger
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik another (not as clearly delineated) change between 2.6 and >3.3, because shit "mysteriously" stops working.
phf: i didn't know yuri lotman was a semiotician, back in high school i had to go to sleep with lotman literary analysis books, like those vietnam conscripts with their rifles
mircea_popescu: phf afaik the tartu school not heretical.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by my reckoning, some kinda pustule popped open at 2.7 and linus's merry men started taking liberties
mircea_popescu: (large portion of what informs "cultural marxism" bla bla on social media today, but that's hardly their fault.)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587276 being little more than "one line summary of structuralism" and so on.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 18:32 mircea_popescu: because no, words don't "have meanings". your meanings for ANY WORD are a function of ALL THE OTHER WORDS YOU KNOW. which is why my definitions regularily blow out english dictionaries, wikipedia and other sources of "wisdom" out of the water - i know more words, and in this knowledge i know all the words i know ~better~. infinitely and irreproducibly so.
asciilifeform: imho can tie the two threads together -- when linux folx stopped giving a shit about kernel size, they went to the same hell as when the physics people ditto
asciilifeform: i.e. forgot commandment, 'first, do no bloat'
mircea_popescu: this position is not without its merit. of course it also proposes literacy as the end of literature ("since they can write their shit to paper, they don't write anythingt worth remembering").
mircea_popescu: but in the end -- no human invention was actually useful. just relatively useful.
phf: i wonder if lotman's post-structuralism is same as the french, or if it's that only in a sense that it's post. anyway, this is cool and i'm going to pick up his other shit next time i'm in moscows
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi that such a thing as post-structuralism happened in ru. at any rate prior to nuland help.
mircea_popescu: as far as i can discern, ru had delayed-structuralism, 50 years later.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'nuland help' was going pretty strong in 1980s.
mircea_popescu: something like that. but this -- more of a 60s thing.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm reading english pediwikia, i assume it's wildly wrong.
mircea_popescu: well, you're reading the spew of a markov process with expectations of terminologic propriety ?!
mircea_popescu: may i recommend #eulora also ?
mircea_popescu: but anyway, to revisit the literacy angle... "congrats on creating the music recording box, mr. tesla. the side benefit is that in a short time there won't be any musicians worth recording left, because of the competition to their craft your time travelling device produces will destroy the very economic reason for their continued existence".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858813 << this, btw, is quite ordinary picture in recent ~decade of iron. given as even humble nic is nao a multicore arm thing, and has own kernel, and sometimes whole MB of internal state, fulla vendor shitware; so yes, can wedge .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 14:47 mircea_popescu: anyway, to put some meat on the bones of "works with cca 2015 vintage drivers, and them only." : incorrect vintage drivers manage to literally fuck the chip, i have never seen dma errors before in teh logs, now have i seen chips refusing to turn back on and in general hardware level spew, "wrong mode d3", "error -5" etc.
mircea_popescu: black culture used to create music at a time white culture was no longer for the same reason as the above : they were poor and retarded and didn't have music time-travel boxes.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing intrinsically black about jazz new orleans, except for the part where the black people were the only poor enough to still have to entertain themselves.
mircea_popescu: ditto harlem and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand, it was actually ~roll piano~ that nuked 'entertain self' music, rather than the scratchy phonograph of the time
asciilifeform: but overall picture correct
mircea_popescu: tesla invented the car anyway, i was just making a point, ~in the structuralist style~.
asciilifeform: ( radio -- welded the coffin shut )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also entertaining , to read the thoughts of the folx baking early television, '20s, 'errybody will watch great theatre!'
asciilifeform: the porcine idjicy of 'mass', was imho quite evident long ago, but 'tech' folx lived in denial.
asciilifeform: recall alan kay and his proto-ipad, 'if they get tabletron, children will learn to logic'
mircea_popescu: cuz smart people keep doing this http://trilema.com/2016/why-is-that/#selection-221.55-225.273 thing, whereby http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-18#1686299 : "i, the all-important lone mind in the universe, can't summon up an image of how the universe'd go if it were took somewhere it never went before, and therefore -- any nonsense i come up with is valid!"
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 22:58 asciilifeform: whaack is quite likely thinking of the bulk of the b00k, which consists of blockcipher liquishit which is complicated for no reason at all other than the religion where 'it is confusing to ME, author, and therefore Must Be Hard To Break'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho simpler. the folx in question were labouring under ye olde christian delusion, where 'errybody got a soul'
mircea_popescu: "what sort of blackguard would dare propose that if you give children dildos they'd put it in playdo ?! THAT IS NOT WHERE ID EVER STICK A DILDO! THIS IS WRONGOG!!!"
phf: i wouldn't blame "children!" on alan kay though, he's a product of piaget's huge influence on post-hippie american academia
asciilifeform: whereas it is the ~hindu~ who had the moar accurate picture -- that , sure, 'errybody soul', but some 70-90% have 'soul' from cockroach with 486dx upgrade pack
mircea_popescu: phf "influence" in the sense of some morons that spoke neither french, nor german, nor italian. piaget was fucking swiss.
mircea_popescu: if anyone dares talk of "mp's influence" in a century in fucking chinese, ima personally return with all my dead friends and feed them dead dumplings.
phf: in russia they say "he hears the bells, but doesn't know where they are coming from"
mircea_popescu: the dog ?
asciilifeform: 'слышит звон да не знает где он'
asciilifeform: ( rhyme in orig )
mircea_popescu had heard this befoar as "the dog hears the bells, but doesn't understand where from".
phf: i'm not sure the dog part fits
phf: the idea is that if you don't know the particular location from which the bells are ringing you will misinterpret their meaning
phf: if it's a human who's hearing then the stress is on the meaning, where if it's a dog the stress becomes on the location (i.e. the dog would want to seek out the source)
phf: but yeah "influence" of piaget as reduced to "children learn best through play"
mircea_popescu: dogs are notoriously incapable of sound location. cats and humans very capable.
mircea_popescu: but possibly meaning was different -- best i can tell the idea was that receptor is incapable of decoding message for substantive lack. usually applied in school context, "class bells draw some kids to class, has no effect on others" sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: which "children learn best through play" is even true, but the catch is -- children do nothing else anyway. if they learn at all...
mircea_popescu: re-reading this log, jesus everything gets jumbled by proximity. so : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858837 they = the tartu school ; next line entirely unrelated to this thread, going back upstack to "if mp has keys" alf complaint.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 15:02 mircea_popescu: (large portion of what informs "cultural marxism" bla bla on social media today, but that's hardly their fault.)
mircea_popescu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jean_Piaget_in_Ann_Arbor.png << this pic of piaget-at-retirement-home perhaps best thing in context.
mircea_popescu: dood's happy.
mircea_popescu: ahh, this article. "Some examples [limited strictly to girls&faggots styles, because forcing the sisters to play victim in some sort of injuns&cowboys game is very much not what kids do first and foremost] of symbolic play include playing house, or having a tea party. "
mircea_popescu: i kinda like the femtard rewrite of piaget. it's something i always wanted to see in my formative years, "what if there was a monastery of mongoloids somewhere, and they hand-copied the texts '''as best they cou;d''' ?". it'd have been solid gold for the anthropologist / historian of religion, back when he still cared. but... no such thing.
mircea_popescu: until, of course, post-computerist age, when https://news.artnet.com/art-world/botched-restoration-of-jesus-fresco-miraculously-saves-spanish-town-197057 and of course wikipedia and so on.
phf: hehe it's true, whatever learned through cliffsnotes, rewritten "in own words", with the originals on a bookshelf as totems of learning
mircea_popescu: it';s something else.
mircea_popescu: very much apropos, http://trilema.com/2013/so-are-they-really-about-to-fuck/
mircea_popescu: because no, it's not such an idle question as all that -- there is a whole subset of four-five ish to maybe sixish year olds who genuinely look like they're just about to fuck but for the lack of functional organs and knowledge of function.
mircea_popescu: children indeed do not nor ever do play "tea party" without insistent adult intervention -- and even then not long past its cessation. but children very much do play something errily akin to what today'd pass for "bdsm" accuplation, male dominated, female receptive sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: and thanks fucking dog for the trilema, otherwise i'd be pretty hard pressed to make that whole 2013 point in the narrow space between two irc lines. or for that matter narrow time.
phf: every "tea party" i've ever been invited to degraded very rapidly once parents were satisfied with their cursory inspection and left us alone. at the time i was convinced it was my doing, but now i realize that the cover up is the format
mircea_popescu: just about.
mircea_popescu: (the "best they could" line is, who could have ever guessed, a throwback to "il joue comme il peut, le pauvre" line in le petit baigneur. because i speak french, what! and "speak" dun mean "my hoovercraft is fulla eels", not here anyway.)
diana_coman: phf, I've uploaded the updated keccak .vpatches for EuCrypt, let me know if there's any trouble: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-39.0-41.16
phf: diana_coman: kk, will test and upload
phf: apropos i want to move vtools to keccak, but i'm not sure what's the best way to solve bootstrapping problem. a signed tar archive of a press that can be used to bootstrap or manual press instructions using gnu patch?
phf: open question for forum ^
mircea_popescu: i frankly do not perceive we have a bootstrapping problem. bootstrapping occurs when you have to turn a primitive into an ulterior -- there is such a thing as a bootstrapping problem of the fetus into adulthood because all adults start as foetii.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, sha is historical accident, nothing starts as it, thence no boot. therefore -- just publish it self referentially and who dun like can go to hell.
asciilifeform: phf: i dun see what's wrong with signed tar
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta disagree re 'nothing starts as it', there is a history, and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851660 is a thing
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:18 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i like the new v format, but i also very strongly wish to avoid coming to resemble the urbit people, with their 'aah we restarted the universe for the 7th time'
BingoBoingo: I see not reason not to go with the tar seeing how gnupatch is enemy materials
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i mean, what's the boot sequence here contemplated ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc phf previously had a thing that pressed with old v, to create the new. imho this is proper.
mircea_popescu: can i have the boot sequence ?
asciilifeform: but also gotta have a tar, there is no reason to force newcomers to set up ancient v prior to getting hold of the current.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 2 boot sequences -- one for machines with old v ( and for dedicated historians who want whole history ) and other for the rest.
mircea_popescu: but phf, who is the author of the thing, did not in fact lose his head and arm by the process of having released the "original" ie sha version. he can just as much authorship a "new" ie, keccak version. and it'll be EXACTLY as much a genesis as that was, in ALL respects.
mircea_popescu: ie, that there's a relationship between "old" and "new" is a tenuous point, if by relationship is meant more than "phf wrote"
asciilifeform: and it will be. but good chunk of the win from v, is to avoid offloading the work of 'is this the same or not' to meat, when it can be done 100% reliably by the mechanism.
mircea_popescu: in the sense that you suspect he might be trustworthy in general, but a liar as to that specific narrowly construed topic ?
asciilifeform: if it is actually same, this is trivially verified. but gotta have the simple mechanism there, rather than 'go write bash script'
mircea_popescu: (notwithstanding how the narrow construction obviously reflects your own measuring tools and naught else ?)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a mechanically verifiable fact, when verifiable trivially, is superior to promise from anybody.
mircea_popescu: if "phf signed" is ~not~ enough proof to you, then why is "phf signed" enough proof to you that his vtools doesn't come alive at night andf fuck my wife ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not agree that heuristic is useful.
asciilifeform: phf can make mistake and sign a broken piece, just as asciilifeform on at least 1 occasion did
mircea_popescu: and you want to build a State around protecting him thusly from himself ?
asciilifeform: what state. simple mechanism, like pin.
asciilifeform: or does mircea_popescu like those german grenades without pins.
mircea_popescu: the best definition i currently have for "State" is "collection of simple mechanisms without actual function".
asciilifeform: maintaining hard-continuity of history is nearly whole point, as i see it , of vtronics.
mircea_popescu: this is true ; but in this case there's no continuity to be maintained. phf is the sole contributor of the entire tree.
mircea_popescu: pretty much ~any~ regrind, regenesis, etc of this item bearing his signature is ~idempotent~ to extant material.
asciilifeform: phf can, of course, release anyffing he likes, incl. to take an old proggy and make new genesis, and say 'any relation b/w this new and that there old, is happenstance'.
asciilifeform: but imho this loses something valuable.
asciilifeform: i try to avoid it when possible.
mircea_popescu: kinda the "what exactly" delineation is the point of this discussion. obv the actual case is relatively unimportant.
mircea_popescu: so -- what exactly is lost if phf just signs and publishes a new tree ?
mircea_popescu: i could see the direct "well -- i had read his old one ; dun wanna re-read the new one, if it's same." but... i thought re-reading was one of our values ?
asciilifeform: simple : that if i find that it doesn't work quite same as previous, i nao have to consider hypothesis that phf made a mistake.
asciilifeform: and read whole thing, or at least diff it manually
mircea_popescu: "yes mp, but best used other places, it's still expensive" "but if you think this is not the place, ie, trust phf... then why not trust him ?" "because i like to use the measuring tools i have whether needed or not" ?
asciilifeform: rereading is great, but it isn't cost-free. if i sit down to reread trb , i'ma have to come back in a ~year
mircea_popescu: right. then it follows, "but if you think this is not the place, ie, trust phf... then why not trust him ?". is your retort here what i imaginarily quoted, "because i like to use the measuring tools i have whether needed or not" ?
asciilifeform: trust allah, but tie camel.
mircea_popescu: i frankly don't see much problem with it either way ; but i will say that your lie-detectors suffer from a certain naivite, whereby they're tuned to catch reality lying (ie, something that has no reflexivity, will lie regardless of your apparatus). this is not so useful with people.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re regrinds in particular, i am more thinking of mistakes, than lies
mircea_popescu: which is why the joib of research scientist and science educator diverges : you teach people by permitting them to get themselves caught. women, too.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform does not have a stable of slaves to manually diff things. and so if at any point it appears to be necessary to hand-diff something, he is stuck doing it with own hands, and on that day, week, month, nuffing else of any use will come off conveyor.
mircea_popescu: i somehow doubt re-reading his vtools is such a waste ; but anyways!
asciilifeform: so from that pov , if it is possible to inexpensively avoid the situation, it is a win.
asciilifeform: recall the thread with the tabs & spaces.
mircea_popescu: alf did not go to school of scholarly beauty, "oh, that is the best one you've made so far, here, let me break it up for you and do it again".
asciilifeform: this worx great for theorems, algos, but not so much for MB of coad soup
mircea_popescu: in diff life, alf will be convicted to be painter, go through above process, lose mind.
asciilifeform: ( phf's item, in particular, incorporates a heavily cut but still pretty crufty ball of gnu c. this is not a stab at phf , but imho is a pertinent fact re 'cost of reading' )
mircea_popescu: maybe the sadness of re-read forces you to fix some!
asciilifeform: reread is great, but it is important for the work to actually be ~cumulative~
mircea_popescu: as long as you patch on his keccak tree i can't see how it could not be.
asciilifeform: cuz meat is a poor substitute for diff util. ( and diff util, in turn, is poor substitute for continuous v-sequence. )
asciilifeform: even setting aside 'if phf made mistake', it is not physically impossible for bit to flip on his hdd at the moment of signing regrind.
mircea_popescu: what's not physically impossible is that his code would greatly benefit from another read by an alf infuriated by the chore. but anyways!
asciilifeform: tangentially on-thread, it still bothers asciilifeform that he was unable to represent the diff b/w mircea_popescu's bitcoin-0.5.3.tar.gz and the genesis as a vpatch ( neither orig v nor current is able to represent the deletion of binariolade... )
asciilifeform: ( either its deletion, or its insertion -- therefore impossible to encode the contents of that tar, as a genesis )
asciilifeform: ... or, in same vein, the thing i ended up having to do in http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=fg case
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 16:40 phf: apropos i want to move vtools to keccak, but i'm not sure what's the best way to solve bootstrapping problem. a signed tar archive of a press that can be used to bootstrap or manual press instructions using gnu patch?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: as i understand q was 'how to give n00b his 1st vtron'
diana_coman: well, if it's "give" then it will have to be signed tar as far as I can tell, I still don't see why one would basically import gnu patch just in order to "give n00b" anything; the options are always either "take what exists i.e. on trust " (in which case archive) or "go and make your own" in which case what's the problem
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i suspect idea was 'make him manually gpg --verify ... and then press by hand-gnupatch a la pre-v trb, better than signed tar'. but i'ma let phf clarify.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/typhus-outbreak-in-los-angeles-california/ << Qntra - Typhus Outbreak In Los Angeles, California
asciilifeform: diana_coman: both old and new-form vpatch can be pressed manually with gnupatch, sorta like old cars could be started with crank if you really had to
asciilifeform: ( and i suspect it'll be a while before e.g. cuntoo is distributed entirely without gnupatch )
diana_coman: the part I don't get is: what does "pressed manually with gnupatch" earn you vs "manually verify sig on this archive here"? (I assume the archive won't be 100MB of shit, ofc)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: not having to have a separate signed-tar distribution, really is all.
asciilifeform: keeping 2 separate forms of a nominally-identical proggy in sync, is a pain
diana_coman: my understanding was that the starter would be just that, fixed minimal thing to get started, I don't see the need to change it and/or keep in sync
asciilifeform: if it really is a certainty that the format will never change again -- then yes
asciilifeform: but even if not changes, but minor refinements, e.g. the graph plotter -- n00bs will end up with old vtron, and then gotta press a newer
asciilifeform: which is potentially headache
asciilifeform: imho ideal case is when cuntoo is mature and errybody's expected to be on it, then the q resolves itself.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. working vtron already present )
diana_coman: in that case the "starter" is using cuntoo, sure
asciilifeform: way i picture it, is on cuntoo, equipped with wot keys, all you'd have to do is e.g. 'vmerge phf-v', 'vselect phf-v' and you get his latest.
asciilifeform: ( i do not know if trinque is going with the old gentoo-flavoured terminology, but expect that process will be roughly similar )
trinque: yeah, not being cute and renaming anything
trinque: the thing's far too wrapped in on itself yet
asciilifeform: trinque: was contemplating vtronic mechanism here, rather than 'cute' rename of the old emerge
trinque: I do not intend to boil the ocean by replacing portage
trinque: some other hero, can
trinque: what I'm doing is replacing the "rsync ebuilds from server" mechanism
asciilifeform: it was my understanding that it is eventually to happen. but i do recall that trinque's current item dun have it yet.
trinque: yep, I'm just making sure nobody expects more than "caught linux in working state at point in time" just yet
asciilifeform: 1st thing is to freeze the old tars, then slowly can vtronicize.
trinque: mhm, perhaps source gets slurped directly into ebuild dirs as time goes on. open question yet how that step proceeds.
trinque: also questionable whether there's such thing as a republican portage, or whether it all ought to be trashed for something gprbuild-based and with far less optionality.
asciilifeform: trinque: trashed, i'd hope, eventually
trinque: same here.
trinque: just a bridge off the infected island
asciilifeform: trinque: i also have visions of integration with gossipd, where the thing, given a wot key, will know how to ask owner for $source item. but this is yet a bridge too far.
asciilifeform: trinque: gprbuild is replacement for gnumake/autoconf liquishit, not so much for portagetron per se.
asciilifeform: ( i have said before, would like to see the autoconf atrocity properly disappear into an unmarked grave )
trinque: bsd ports tree uses exactly make for this
asciilifeform: even from existing gnu liquishit, it is fairly easy, turns out, to remove ( e.g. as i did with the mpi that diana_coman made into the 1st half of eucrypt )
asciilifeform: trinque: right
asciilifeform: ( gentoo's did not )
asciilifeform: imho gprbuild oughta stay separate item from vtron tho
asciilifeform: ( i can't picture an integrated hybrid being less gnarly ; could be wrong about this tho )
trinque: sure, vtron presses the ports tree, gprbuild builds
asciilifeform: ( my primary objection to a hypothetical hybrid, is that i often do work on boxes with no nic, and imho builder must not rely on connectivity )
trinque: no need to chimerize where necessity doesn't force
asciilifeform: aha. and it should be possible to operate a cuntoo box with sporadic, or no, net pipe.
asciilifeform: 'Discussion regarding article about apple and amazon denied that Chinese spies implemented backdoor chips into hardware' << uhm, 'казнить нельзя помиловать'
asciilifeform: ( for non-ru folx -- traditional grammar school example of why gotta have correct punctuation, 'execute cannot spare' , toggleable opposite meanings with comma . anybody know of an engl-compatible version ? )
asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform's pet volunteered a similar/popular engl example, 'the hookers hitler and stalin walked into the room'
trinque: ah I was over here trying to figure out what webcomic that was, maybe oatmeal
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859021 << https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8_U68YXuqc&t=15m38s
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 20:05 asciilifeform: 'Discussion regarding article about apple and amazon denied that Chinese spies implemented backdoor chips into hardware' << uhm, 'казнить нельзя помиловать'
asciilifeform: phf: yes!!
asciilifeform: ^ mega-classic
mircea_popescu: neither orig v nor current is able to represent the deletion << no FUCKING way.
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking point of the entire new v was to be able to represent deletion of files.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: binaries
asciilifeform: neither gnudiff nor the new one, knows how to eat'em
asciilifeform: recall the 'fg schematics' pain thread.
mircea_popescu: we discussed this extensively, before phf even started. new vtools is perfectly capable of describing the deletion/movement/etc of ~any files~.
asciilifeform: hm did it throw out the 'deletions must be reversible' thing ? now i gotta try it..
asciilifeform: ( ~insertion~ of binaries still not representable afaik, in any known difftron )
mircea_popescu: i really don't like this constant process you got in your head going sed -e 's/i don't know/doesn't exist/' everything-i-never-read.txt
asciilifeform: i did say 'afaik' neh
mircea_popescu: helps ~nothing.
asciilifeform goes to experiment
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sadly enuff, i was right in re the current phf-vdiff . observe : a) http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/5ZYgF/?raw=true << example of deleting a text file. in fact uses same deletion representation as ordinary gnudiff, where entire payload is quoted. b) http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vl2Ca/?raw=true << attempt to represent deletion of 1MB from FG. result : same as in oldschool gnudiff.
asciilifeform: and i do recall that mircea_popescu specced this feature. but seems like it aint there yet.
asciilifeform: try it yourself.
asciilifeform: i am testing the version given in http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ .
phf: asciilifeform is right, i dropped the ball on it. i prototyped it right after we had a conversation, and then i had the four months of fiat work, and i forgot that it was on my plate.
asciilifeform: phf: didja ever discover an algo for doing this without breaking with classical diff format ?
asciilifeform: or is this a perpetuum mobile
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we had solution to that, whole discussion with fully specified filenames, on it goes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rright but afaik it does break format.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit. let all format breakingds HAPPEN AT ONCE
asciilifeform: ( recall, i did not have objection to breaking it thusly, imho oughta be able to represent bins )
mircea_popescu: phf what the fuck are you doing to me!
asciilifeform: aha !
asciilifeform: this is why i was not hurrying to regrind, thought (turns out correctly) that the new vdiff ain't 100% yet
mircea_popescu: oh this is why!
asciilifeform: 1 of the 2 whys
asciilifeform: then diana_coman & mircea_popescu say 'wtf your waiting for' so thought 'so it's done...'
asciilifeform: diana_coman evidently did not test this ( not really criticism of diana_coman , iirc we did decide that republican proggies ought not to include raw binariolade )
phf: format breaks only in a sense that gnu patch won't press it. current vpatches that don't delete/rename (since the feature is not there) will never the less work with any future changes to vtools
asciilifeform: phf: if binariola handler is added carefully, then yes, should not break existing patches
asciilifeform: ( i suggested several ways of doing this )
mircea_popescu: phf i am very not happy with the situation.
phf: mircea_popescu: i understand, it's the height of idiocy on my part
asciilifeform: phf: do ya think you can post the binaries-eating version soon-ish ? i'd like to regrind FG, for example.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have bins in eulora tree ?
asciilifeform: ( graphics ? )
asciilifeform: how is it that i'm the first to notice this hole.
phf: asciilifeform: because binary we've been going back and forth on over many conversations over the past year. e.g. mp-wp was rewritten to not use binaries because around the time the resolution was to not pack binaries into vpatches and instead move in the direction of human readable formats
asciilifeform: phf: rright but i distinctly recall that it was settled in favour of 'gotta have bin diffing'
asciilifeform: phf: if you already have the coad for this, let's have it; otherwise i have a cl needleman-wunsch routine that i will adaize.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/minigame-smg-september-2018-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), September 2018 Statement
phf: asciilifeform: i don't have binary diffing even in prototype form, if you could adaize your needleman-wunsch i could add it to vtools, the way i did with diana_coman's keccak
phf: my first priority is to revive delete/rename though since i have algo and code for it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do we want bin ~creations~ or only deletions ?
asciilifeform: if only the former, then what phf said
asciilifeform: err, latter
asciilifeform: ( if only deletions, than the file renameage thing will suffice )
asciilifeform: also while mircea_popescu is awake : if you have the dest # for the 1-800 thing, plox to gpggram, i'ma bake it ( theoretically oughta be live in day or 2 from revv-up )
phf: there are three distinct options: deletions and renames (which is handled by mp algo), creations (that can be handled by e.g. <size><content in hex>) and diffing (which is top complexity, needing e.g. needleman-wunsch)
asciilifeform: phf: creations & diffs do not presently have a standard format; if mircea_popescu says that we need it, will have to make one.
asciilifeform: ( creations & diffs for bins, specifically )
phf: asciilifeform: right
phf: i have couple of hours tomorrow, so i'll pick up the deletions and renames code either way, and either release it, or give an estimate for how long it will take me to bake it
asciilifeform: ty phf
asciilifeform: phf: recall, this is why asciilifeform earlier wanted a non-linecentric diff representation. then would not need special cases for clean ascii & bins.
asciilifeform: but nobody liked this, seems like errybody is addicted to lines.
phf: asciilifeform: i think the divergent points were a lot more elaborate than this particular reduction
asciilifeform: possibly, i'ma have to rewalk the pertinent l0gz when i get a chance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bins in mp-wp tree, hanbot expertly ascii-ized.
asciilifeform: ah so no raw bins presently
asciilifeform: not in eulora either ? also asciilzied ?
mircea_popescu: you mean the client ? no-one's even bothered to genesis thart yet ; being replaced i expect.
mircea_popescu: there was NO discussion of "bion diffing". nor will there be. there was specified support ~for deletion of files~, which is WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
mircea_popescu: stop fucking squigee-ing around for maximum damage. what you're damaging is your own fucking house.
asciilifeform: if start of thread is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858965 , then mircea_popescu is correct, deletions suffice
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 17:12 asciilifeform: tangentially on-thread, it still bothers asciilifeform that he was unable to represent the diff b/w mircea_popescu's bitcoin-0.5.3.tar.gz and the genesis as a vpatch ( neither orig v nor current is able to represent the deletion of binariolade... )
asciilifeform: phf then you dun need bin diff/create.
mircea_popescu: right. phf was supposed to have ~support for deletion/movement/fullspecified filename~ baked in.
mircea_popescu: i can't currently conceive how the fuck he even MADE a vtools without it, because it was a root node and nothing works without it anyway (eg, i expect all the hashes he calculates are wrong)
mircea_popescu: but i am not currently in a position to take a day off and review poorly executed jobs in detail.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm mapping out the size of the hole, rather than dancing on mircea_popescu's toes for phun; have patience, if i've found this earlier, yer toes would not hurt nao.
mircea_popescu: phf when you calculate the file hash, do you take ~the full name~ plus "the content or just "the content" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if he's stuck to the old gnudiff format, which per my test appears to be the case, names aint hashed at all ( they're covered by the gpg sig of given patch, but that's it )
mircea_popescu: which is the fucking reason we even rewrote it.
asciilifeform: i actually posted an experimental vtron that hashed the names
asciilifeform: ( http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-March/000293.html ; http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html demo )
asciilifeform: but afaik this did not make it to the spec table
phf: mircea_popescu: the later, but i don't think that was the last iteration of your algorithm
phf: i'm trying to find the relevant thread right now
mircea_popescu: well now i'm reading through all dis, what can do. phf's four months at work resulted in same many months of rot, now we don't recall the spec, log is long, life is short, so on an' so forth.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever post a eulora-style full spec for the thing btw ?
asciilifeform: or only exists in log
mircea_popescu: only in log.
asciilifeform: this is dangerous, really oughta have spec, it's what sets us apart from teh apes
a111: Logged on 2018-04-02 23:57 mircea_popescu: at which juncture i suppose it'd pay to check, huh. hey phf, my memory of logs discussion includes this item whereby the above problem was fully resolved by declaring the path as inseparable part of the filename. you on the same page ?
mircea_popescu: apparently didn't so much pay to check.
phf: and later i say we're on the same page, and i have no idea why and how
mircea_popescu: and ~i~ should have written a blog article about it ? wtf would i put in it ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-03#1792105 << closest i found to spec for mircea_popescu's algo .
a111: Logged on 2018-04-03 00:02 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the logged discussion on the topic was, "if hashes match but paths do not, the file was moved ; if hashes match and paths match, the file is untouched ; if hashes do not match but paths match the file was modified ; if hashes do not match and paths do not match the file was created/deleted"
mircea_popescu: this is correct ; my above "hash the filename" was incorrect, or rather, inexact.
asciilifeform: it's entirely workable .
asciilifeform: ( in thread, mircea_popescu detailed how to make it go )
asciilifeform: phf: i think errything you need, is in there.
phf: yes, i remember the algo, and algo requires that the hash is just of content. i thought i was entirely insane, because immediately after "hash the name + content" i say "we're on the same page"
mircea_popescu: phf "inseparable part of filename" != "hashed".
mircea_popescu: as i say, my latter statement of the notion was misleading & vague.
mircea_popescu: kinda what the problem is with these "brought back from the swamps of memory" items, the result takes some washing.
phf: mircea_popescu: the next line after the one you quoted is "all files are identified by hashesof their name and content"
mircea_popescu: i am aware.
asciilifeform: it is my understanding tho that it is impossible to apply the algo in the thread if one were to make file name part of file's hash.
asciilifeform: ( could no longer identify moved files automatically )
asciilifeform: file names are covered by the gpg seal of given patch, tho, so it isn't as if people can get away with blindly renaming items in a patch. so if taking all of mircea_popescu's algo but the hashed-names part, you have a usable algo.
asciilifeform: and it dun even break the ancient format.
phf: asciilifeform: right, all the contemplated extensions were supposed to be backwards compatible. the ancient format allows for a lot of necessary leeway
mircea_popescu: i recall the succesion of steps of 1. being very happy with solution that was all smiles and no bruises ; 2. being satisfied that the people involved understood 1 ; 3. unloaded it from head. now in the nightmare consequent of "4. wait, what was it ?"
mircea_popescu: anyway, leaving aside the past half hour of chaos : how can it be simultaneously true that a) delivered item matches 3rd of april algo and b) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859041 ?!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 23:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sadly enuff, i was right in re the current phf-vdiff . observe : a) http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/5ZYgF/?raw=true << example of deleting a text file. in fact uses same deletion representation as ordinary gnudiff, where entire payload is quoted. b) http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vl2Ca/?raw=true << attempt to represent deletion of 1MB from FG. result : same as in oldschool gnudiff.
phf: mircea_popescu: delivered item does not match 3rd of april algo. the algo was invented after delivered item was fully implemented with the idea that the algorithm can be added to the item transparently. but it was also around the time that i could no longer work on the item, so it remained unchanged since then
mircea_popescu: well, we'll hafta do something here ;/
phf: mircea_popescu: well, short of cutting my head off, or handing it over, i can add the missing bits
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 23:58 phf: i have couple of hours tomorrow, so i'll pick up the deletions and renames code either way, and either release it, or give an estimate for how long it will take me to bake it
BingoBoingo: As I await the board to approve the Pizarro report I bring a nugget from the research mines: "Just try to have a good time and work hard to find a better job. Budtending is nowhere land."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858998 << as far as anyone knows, it's still ~experimental~ item anyway. not that it'd be nice for it to work, but really, expecting ? i ain't expecting it to. it's a wonder things like eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1858794 worked, but i frankly was not expecting anything as lofty as "piece of hardware can be made to work"
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 19:47 trinque: yep, I'm just making sure nobody expects more than "caught linux in working state at point in time" just yet
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 14:27 mircea_popescu: brought about by y.t. fixing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854603 through generous application of sewed out linux-wireless-compat-blabla. turns out the aeteron pci board included (mysteriously dubbed "revision 0032") works with cca 2015 vintage drivers, and them only.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo wut is budtending ? serving budweiser ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It's what the kids who weren't good enough to hussle on the corner call themselves when they work slinging redditized Monsanto behind a counter
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859002 << i can't say as i understand wtf portage even is ; and i nurse some doubts as to whether anyone (yes, yes, i know you know what you'd want it to be. however...)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 19:53 trinque: also questionable whether there's such thing as a republican portage, or whether it all ought to be trashed for something gprbuild-based and with far less optionality.
mircea_popescu: oh, like barristas for pot ?
BingoBoingo: Pretense and all
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 20:03 asciilifeform: aha. and it should be possible to operate a cuntoo box with sporadic, or no, net pipe.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 20:06 asciilifeform: ( for non-ru folx -- traditional grammar school example of why gotta have correct punctuation, 'execute cannot spare' , toggleable opposite meanings with comma . anybody know of an engl-compatible version ? )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859081 +506 7250 3898 (that + is 011 from us/cadana afaik).
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 23:54 asciilifeform: also while mircea_popescu is awake : if you have the dest # for the 1-800 thing, plox to gpggram, i'ma bake it ( theoretically oughta be live in day or 2 from revv-up )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859082 << are you saying creations are not handled by linked algo ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 23:55 phf: there are three distinct options: deletions and renames (which is handled by mp algo), creations (that can be handled by e.g. <size><content in hex>) and diffing (which is top complexity, needing e.g. needleman-wunsch)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-07#1859095 << (important furtherance here : protocol as is being baked kinda removes all binary-ism from client tree, data to be received and cached as data rather than mangled into source tree as a sort of "divine cache" as currently practiced by ~all morons involved in gaming)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-07 00:05 mircea_popescu: you mean the client ? no-one's even bothered to genesis thart yet ; being replaced i expect.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-07#1859170 << that part of the discussion was about binary (the algo doesn't discriminate text or binary, but there's no support for binary creation in format), it was a panicked detour, that has been since resolved with "there's no binary in vpatch"
a111: Logged on 2018-10-07 01:39 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859082 << are you saying creations are not handled by linked algo ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-07#1859159 << portage was the closest thing there was to 'where asciilifeform cribbed concept for v' -- except that it never worked well at all
a111: Logged on 2018-10-07 01:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859002 << i can't say as i understand wtf portage even is ; and i nurse some doubts as to whether anyone (yes, yes, i know you know what you'd want it to be. however...)
asciilifeform: ( aside from rampant brokenness, in the years since gentoo author took 30 silvers from microshit and fucked it all ) would routinely get into circular wedges and fail in other 'interesting' ways
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-07#1859166 << how do i turn this into 2 possible sentences ? i only see 1...
a111: Logged on 2018-10-07 01:13 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-06#1859022 << "woman without her man is nothing"
mircea_popescu: "woman, without her man, is nothing" "woman. without her, man is nothing"
asciilifeform: aaa ~two~ punctuators aite
mircea_popescu: only one changes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how much traffic do you expect on the 800..? there's variant 14.49/0.07min and 17.99/0.066min where latter includes 223/mo
mircea_popescu: not like my hand calc even can tell the diff of dust between 15 and 18 dubaloos.
mircea_popescu: get the latter, why not. feel free to test it once on, also, give the girl a start.
asciilifeform: aite i'ma get the slightly cheaper-per one, we can switch laters
mircea_popescu: i dunno why we'd ever switch it lol. worst comes to worst, we use it like those old kgb stations, "voice of woman reading number sets"
asciilifeform: ok ordered
asciilifeform: somebody's gonna call the # apparently
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wake up the chix...
mircea_popescu: she needs to say something or anything specific ?
asciilifeform: 'Step 1 - An account manager will call you to confirm and activate your service'
asciilifeform: cheap enuff experiment.
asciilifeform: if it eats my 'can of soda' coin, i'ma try another
asciilifeform: hrm, acct worx, no #s showing yet
asciilifeform: prolly pending confirm on bananistan end
mircea_popescu: this is a coffeestan!
mircea_popescu: this is a coffee, stan!
asciilifeform: 'One of our representatives will review your order and enable your account shortly'
mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Reynolds's_Political_Map_of_the_United_States_1856.jpg << pretty great actuarial item on the bottom of this. who knew ohio was 2nd largest state, ~6 californias ? who knew florida was smaller than rhode island ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-06 15:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand, it was actually ~roll piano~ that nuked 'entertain self' music, rather than the scratchy phonograph of the time
mircea_popescu: nicoleci your phone became the end point for the bitcoin foundation's 800 number. if anyone calls do teh professional, and report here any issues or q's.
mircea_popescu: mod6 asciilifeform do you want her to prepare a script or anything ? fixed greeting ?
asciilifeform: latest update -- they ate asciilifeform's 17bux, but did not disgorge a form for choosing the # yet
asciilifeform: i suspect it's at least partially meat-powered shop : 'Please be advised that a sales (Account manager) will reach out to you at their earliest convenience .'
nicoleci: mircea_popescu, yes, Master
mircea_popescu: not like there's some rush.