mircea_popescu: and even if they won't, what harm can come of sitting with charter an' logs.
BingoBoingo: I for one support baby duck memes
asciilifeform: it's a q for the current board. i suggested to ask hanbot because hanbot is known as a very skilled organizational hand, and not currently running anyffing ( aside from, possibly, mircea_popescu's janissary corps )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856280 << to put specifics to this, the original endowment was set at $5mn during meeting with harvard president (who came up with the speciffic gimmick too, stanfords were thinking of "A combined museum-lecture hall" and such nonsense). 1885 us gdp was something like 60bn, and the us was barely 1% of the world at the time. meanwhile 10 btc is 1/1.6mn of monetary mass or somesuch.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 03:31 mircea_popescu: (and, amusingly enough, the founding donation was a whole of a lot less than 10 bitcoin, also.)
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in random : https://www.thebalance.com/trump-s-tax-plan-how-it-affects-you-4113968
esthlos: trinque: wrt the keccak vtron, see http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/YWfb5/?raw=true . I haven't managed to get asdf working with ccl, though the sbcl version builds and appears to work. Note that the thing will barf on non-keccak vpatches. Write-up will come in the next few days. I also have some log catch-up to do: will read the context and repond to your other question soon.
trinque: esthlos: where's asdf come in?
deedbot: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vpy-updated-for-vtools/ << BARKS IN THE WIND - v.py updated for vtools
phf: heh, it's the midnight special, night of v double feature
phf: asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: in other random lulz : the panic of 1857 was at least in part generated by a ship carrying 14 tons of gold towards new york sinking in a hurricane (took a whole day to sink, boiler slowly died leaving them without power, quite the adventure, 500 people died, the captain was kinda cool etc). some people from ohio found it ("bayesian search!!!") in the 80s.
trinque: hory shit, it's raining vtrons.
mircea_popescu: every single insurance company in the world found itself genealogically related to insurers who made payments in the 1800s, resulting in a legal battle settled sometime in the 90s, ~90% award to the finding crew. the leader of which went into hiding soon thereafter, in the middle of various legal wranglings with his backers and crew.
mircea_popescu: was found (along with "assistant" allison) and "extradited" to ohio to provide explanations in 2015. afaik no explanations yet -- but it turns out bayesian-things great way to bankruptcy.
mircea_popescu: (nfi why they don't credit laplace -- other than protestant-ish ineptitude. presbyterians code!!!).
mircea_popescu: esthlos phf sweet!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 03:22 mircea_popescu: diana_coman is that getting a patch or what ?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1856174 -> I suppose new world hostels might be better than old world ones, esp italian ones (though I'll grant that they were best for meeting people, yes)
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 20:54 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1856041 << me (&chet) stopped overnight into one such item, on the mexico-guatemala border. endless halls of clean but modest beds, dozen or so to the room. place could've prolly quartered a whole regiment, but not the right agricultural moment so we were alone in the whole thing. it was pretty eerie anyways.
mircea_popescu: this wasn't a hostel. it literally was a migrant worker flophouse.
diana_coman: ah, that makes more sense
diana_coman: phf, please add the fix patch to eucrypt http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-391.0-399.38
diana_coman: I mean: please "snarf" as per existing term of art
diana_coman: ave1, you forgot to change manifest file for your zfp_4_assert.vpatch? (i.e. it's missing from the list in manifest)
ave1: diana_coman, thanks! yes I see and I did forget
esthlos: trinque: asdf is used to join the pieces together (keccak, gpg, etc.) for use by the vtron proper. I tried to build the vtron modularly, and my understanding is that asdf is the standard for handling modules in common lisp. is there a better way to do package management in cl?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 04:29 deedbot: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vpy-updated-for-vtools/ << BARKS IN THE WIND - v.py updated for vtools
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf http://btcbase.org/patches/v99#L36 is not 'bug' in the usual sense of the word, but imho oughta be fixed in next rev
asciilifeform: hrm, bot dead..?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: dhl sent me a 'crate delivery today, plz be there to sign' in re your thing
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in trb observatory : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_1_ProcessBlock.txt << anatomy of a 'noad behind'. whole night zoolag fed nuffin but 'bastards', and incl. by friendlies, in continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856264
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 00:59 asciilifeform: meanwhile in asciilifeform's trb observatory : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SEy0g/?raw=true << 'bastards' emitted by ( among others ) friendlies. really is imho bug, trb ought not to send bastards to trb.
asciilifeform: currently ~100blox behind highest known height.
asciilifeform: ( after 'aggression' i find that this condition lasts a day or 2, max, but was quite curious re how it is able to come about to begin with. )
asciilifeform: i'm pretty curious why a trb node is able to answer pfrom->PushGetBlocks(pindexBest, uint256(0)); with ANYTHING other than the immediately-missing next block, when it is known to have it.
asciilifeform: then again there is the simpler explanation : that it only gets asked on connect, and our connectivity is good enuff that this happens rarely.
asciilifeform: at some point i'ma try ben_vulpes's 'moar aggress' variant, which cures this.
asciilifeform: and yea it's http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks/tree/bitcoin/src/main.cpp#L1362 that trb (and for that matter heathens, but fuck'em) doesn't respond to sanely.
asciilifeform: incidentally, does anyone remember wtf happened to the 'log timestamps' patch for trb ? who wrote it, and how come it never made it into the flagship tree ?
asciilifeform: dug through log, but not found answ yet
asciilifeform: imho oughta exist at the very least as optional jumper.
asciilifeform doesn't use any fancy redirection-to-sys-logger for trb log, and doesn't intend to
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856349 << right nao it's asdf, yes. but hopefully soon asdf can be replaced by your vtron-in-cl !
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 11:51 esthlos: trinque: asdf is used to join the pieces together (keccak, gpg, etc.) for use by the vtron proper. I tried to build the vtron modularly, and my understanding is that asdf is the standard for handling modules in common lisp. is there a better way to do package management in cl?
asciilifeform: ~that~ is the Right Thing for cl packagetronics.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856334 << ianal, but aint that the ~whole point of 'international maritime law' ? where iirc once insurance pays, the sunken cargo turns into 'buried treasure' and belongs to whoever lifts it, no questions asked ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 04:35 mircea_popescu: every single insurance company in the world found itself genealogically related to insurers who made payments in the 1800s, resulting in a legal battle settled sometime in the 90s, ~90% award to the finding crew. the leader of which went into hiding soon thereafter, in the middle of various legal wranglings with his backers and crew.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. i dun recall spain defending any claims to the contents of sunken 17th c. galleons that usa regularly picked up in '70s-'80s )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856296 << i gotta admit that i dun see point in 'growth for growth's sake'. there was already prb 'foundation' for ~that~. tbf is for maintaining & improving (constructively! there's plenty of actual ills to cure, that dun reduce to 'not enuff heathen notoriety' ) trb.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 03:45 hanbot: okay, but are gimmicks that work therefore good?
asciilifeform: i could even see an argument that the charter could permit 'trb-i' work under the flag of tbf. but that's as far as it goes, per my reading
asciilifeform: ( and imho all of the people qualified to work on trbi, are already here, they dun need to see duck races to be persuaded to come... )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, my understanding is that tbf's scope is not limited to trb, nor focused specifically mainly on trb
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right, pretty much all of the early vtronics work happened on tbf ml
diana_coman: yes but further afield - not even focused on *code*
asciilifeform: and the orig 'rotor', i baked for tbf, and from it we have the musl thing, etc
asciilifeform: diana_coman: that's uncharted territory..
diana_coman: sure it is, but that's more of the point from what I see
asciilifeform: i suppose. simply can't picture yet , what might fit under this .
diana_coman: i.e. tbf going into uncharted territory and thriving
asciilifeform: errything done to date, related to trb at least tangentially.
asciilifeform: which imho was proper.
diana_coman: I think that's precisely what the chairs need to figure out: "what might fit under this " and be useful, ofc
asciilifeform: way i see it, there's plenty of sharp edges left on good old trb, and any new work ought not to subtract from the very real remaining work of smoothing'em out.
diana_coman: I don't follow your reasoning there
asciilifeform: it is very much a question for the board, tho.
diana_coman: i.e. what does one have to do with the other? what, hanbot should now start working on trb if she becomes chair?
asciilifeform: way i see it, if hanbot takes over mod6's duties, then oughta at least carry on what he was doing ( i.e. maintenance of the flagship tree, testing of candidate patches )
asciilifeform: and anyffing on top of that, is bonus
diana_coman: I agree that there is plenty of work to be done on trb, sure; but I don't see the subtraction thing
asciilifeform: it's a risk, not a 'certain doom'
asciilifeform: my contention was simply that oddball extensions of the mission ought not to subtract from the traditional mission, is all.
asciilifeform: fwiw i see my own work on trb, to date, as a ~defensive~ affair, i.e. to make whatever fixes req'd to keep the thing working precisely as it worked in 2009, in the face of the very real and continuing network rot / 9000 forms of active attack from heathendom to date
asciilifeform: as i observed just today and on 9000 occasions, even the simple thing of 'why can a trb node be 100 blox behind a fellow trb peer' is not yet licked
diana_coman: I don't see that related to one specific chair, I guess; i.e. I don't even see a problem if mod6 wants to continue testing the patches and maintaining the tree even if he is not trb chair (not that he has to continue, but neither does he have to pass the job on if he is not chair anymore)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i dun particularly care who in l1 does it, for so long as it keeps being done.
asciilifeform: i suppose the fundamental headache is that the charter never explicitly specified that the chair is who does.
diana_coman: so then that, fine; not to do with trb though per se, cool
diana_coman: ugh, tbf*
asciilifeform: at the risk of 'bureaucratism', i'd suggest to mod6 & ben_vulpes to amend charter to explicitly make clear the duties of the chair, prior to swapping chairs. but would be curious to see what mircea_popescu thinks.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Recieved a ping as well. Will update when in hand
asciilifeform: strictly from asciilifeform's pov, tbf is a (to date, imho very successful) ~conservative~ institution, rather like (pre-20th c) vatican.
asciilifeform: it ~preserves~ a valuable and continuously-attacked item.
mircea_popescu: there's no way to do that though.
asciilifeform: doesn't excuse anybody from trying and dying on the embrasures imho.
mircea_popescu: but how would you go about defining what the chair's job is ?
asciilifeform: 'what mod6 has been doing'
mircea_popescu: i mean, it's ok to ask things of people. even difficult things. but can you ask the impossible ?
asciilifeform: i'm sympathetic to the scandinavian view -- yes, world will perish in fire and ice, nothing is 4evah, etc. but doesn't excuse surrender.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the thread with the physicists.
mircea_popescu: but how's he, or anyone, to say the words that translate "what the chair's job is".
mircea_popescu: which one lol.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 16:28 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
mircea_popescu: so ok, i'll bite. what is "the job of pysicist" ?
asciilifeform: there's all kindsa people whose entirely legit duty is to attempt, continuously, the possibly-impossible.
mircea_popescu: that part is not under discussion. sure.
mircea_popescu: is it your job to tell me "the chapter titles of the universal and permanent book on physics" ?
asciilifeform: physicist, who ~must~ look for a simpler equation that in fact may not exist; surgeon who must operate on the possibly-hopeless pre-corpse; detective, who must look for a robber who for all he knows maybe teleported; etc
asciilifeform: and we also know what failure looks like.
mircea_popescu: i think maybe we're not talking together.
asciilifeform: recall the thread where mircea_popescu observed 'y'know those 'hard' murder cases, where detective sits an' thinks, well guess what , in new york they no longer do that, either obvious suspect or they shelve it nao'
asciilifeform: physics, imho, has failed, i.e. accepted eternally snowballing complexity liquishit in place of unifications ( 9000 threads.. )
asciilifeform: so to return to orig q , imho 'job of physicist' is 1st, and above all, to work so that 'physics' ~fits in head~ and thereby remains a legitimate item.
asciilifeform: even if this turns out to be impossible.
mircea_popescu: it seems to me you're essentially saying "hey chairs, in recognition of how you've mostly failed to organize an experimental physics laboratory over half a decade, how about you produce a unified world theory on your way out".
mircea_popescu: it seems to me if the latter were even vaguely approachable, the former'd have been impressively developed already.
asciilifeform: i'ma agree that 'delineate it in contract' is not solution.
mircea_popescu: nor sane expectation.
asciilifeform: was simply curious re whether the other participants (incl. new ones, potentially hanbot) see the thing through same lens as asciilifeform , or not.
mircea_popescu: it may shock "the community" of not-bdsm to find that i... DONT have "Slavery contracts" either.
mircea_popescu: cuz how the fuck.
asciilifeform: no i get this.
asciilifeform: words, obv., are not alive, cannot move people who do not want to be moved.
asciilifeform: ( iirc mircea_popescu had an article re 'only those are alive, whom words can move' )
mircea_popescu: i think the problems people in general encounter in conceptualizing contracts come from a very misfortunate but clearly delineated source, so let me belabour the matter to understand each other for all time.
mircea_popescu: a) the anti-humanity party, however temporarily called, "protestant", "presbyterian", "unitarian", "democratic", "civilized", "ecologist", "animal rightist" what have you -- they're still these people who plainly and simply hate human life as a thing.
mircea_popescu: consider by way of ilustration that frank sinatra has this reputation, unexamined, apodictic, of some kind of smooth, very sexually powerful operator. this reputation was built on the basis of a bunch of idiotic films written and directed by gene kelly, the adam sandler of the 40s, in which frank sinatra is POINTEDLY SEXUALLY INEPT.
mircea_popescu: this is what the pantsuit do : call good bad and bad good. that's it. and if it doesn't stick, they don't care, they just repeat it. over a long enough interval, it'll end up sticking statistically, especially if left unopposed (and who has the resources to oppose sheer femidiocy ?).
mircea_popescu: now, these people wanted to replace the republican "several colonies" with the imperial "united states". (but they'd have stolen the name "several colonies", if that seemed more valuable in 1860.)
mircea_popescu: the process through which they succeeded this replacement was inventing a hallucinated "freedom" for slaves, a thing that can never be.
mircea_popescu: if i tell a girl "keep the palace floors clean", it's one thing. if i tell a girl "clean from here to here, this is your mop this is your detergent you're to be done by noon", it's another thing.
mircea_popescu: the difference between these two is that if the alien empire of bugs attacks planet earth, and they land on my palace floor and litter it, the former girl will organize intergalactic war with mops and buckets, AND DIE ON THAT FUCKING FLOOR. to be buried later, in a taj mahal built for the purpose.
mircea_popescu: whereas the 2nd girl runs over to find me, and cower behind me, and "massah, massah, job no longer doable".
mircea_popescu: an "employment contract", a writ which delineates what the ~~~SLAVE~~~ is to do is no kind of contract. its only use is for the slave to oppose to master, "but why should i be blamed for not doing x, it's not written in here".
mircea_popescu: the utility of such devices is very moderate indeed -- ALL it ever does is support the otherwise spurious pretense that slaves are not in fact slaves but somehow citizens. lincoln needed this to support his tenuous attempts on fucking over his country. i can't imagine what we'd need it for.
mircea_popescu: this stance informs my http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-24#1837545 as well as my position here : there's very limited use for an enumeration of duties in a lordship forum. it's fine and dandy if any lord wishes to use it in training his own slaves, but this is pointedly not what i'm contemplating in these halls.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-24 15:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider eg that pizarro doesn't need to undertake the (significant, and unbounded) cost of writing "code of conduct" or "terms of service" or any of the other nonsense. things have changed. nude bitcoin is dangerous in the sense discussed in 2012, but bitcoin-as-currency-of-the-republic eminently usable today.
mircea_popescu: the essence, inalienable and substantial, of all freedom, is global responsibility. yes this means that you may end up blindsided by landing empires of bugs. it also, together and inseparably, means that you may be a person, and things such as "i'm not about to tell you what comp lang to use" etc. as counterdistinct from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-06#1666454
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 15:24 mircea_popescu: and if experience with the empire of "i just want to" lazy idiots is any guide, they're DEFINITELY not going to "get in trouble for buying microsoft". because "nobody could have predicted" and "they were just doing their job" which "hey man, it's just a gig, it's not my life!"
mircea_popescu: aaand there goes my trilema article for the day. i wonder why i never get to publish anything anymore...
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 13:57 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in trb observatory : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_1_ProcessBlock.txt << anatomy of a 'noad behind'. whole night zoolag fed nuffin but 'bastards', and incl. by friendlies, in continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856264
BingoBoingo: In other 64k pyramids: https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/el-5-de-oro-en-el-que-se-adelanto-un-numero-y-la-explicacion-de-loterias-y-quinielas-201810110170
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:08 asciilifeform: incidentally, does anyone remember wtf happened to the 'log timestamps' patch for trb ? who wrote it, and how come it never made it into the flagship tree ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ahaha they can't pay, illinois style ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Number appeared on the graphic layover BEFORE coming out of the shuffling ball hopper
mircea_popescu: a. lel.
BingoBoingo: McDonalds monopoly style
mircea_popescu: you know why this was, right ?
BingoBoingo: I am unsure
mircea_popescu: well, a) shuffler is never live (mostly, because the legal trappings around it require the shuffling be redone in some circumstances -- such as malfunction.) with b) orcs can't sync a gfx.
mircea_popescu: it'd be typically orcish to mistake b for some sort of REAL WORLD IMPORTANCE, too. but ... it isn't.
mircea_popescu: the foregoing is no evidence of fraud.
BingoBoingo: Well, still apparently has quite a few of the orcs lit up. Still, something to go amongst the people and talk about.
mircea_popescu: and the "authority", or w/e judge, stuck with dealing with the "reddit revolution" will, if sane, say exact same thing. which the morons will interpret as "o noes elites have abandoned us, must make own justice"
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:07 mircea_popescu: the utility of such devices is very moderate indeed -- ALL it ever does is support the otherwise spurious pretense that slaves are not in fact slaves but somehow citizens. lincoln needed this to support his tenuous attempts on fucking over his country. i can't imagine what we'd need it for.
mircea_popescu: well i have, in both holes. what specifically did you have in mind ?
asciilifeform: how they were seen by euros as 'backward' for having 'errybody, from vizier down, is personal slave of sultan' instead of 'contract'
mircea_popescu: except the milet system is exact opposite of this
mircea_popescu: !#s "milet"
mircea_popescu: !#s "millet"
mircea_popescu: i also can't speak.
asciilifeform: was thinking of janissary corps , i.e. 'ss'/leibstandarte, rather than empire as whole
asciilifeform: y'know, their l1
mircea_popescu: it's doubtful janissary corps = l1. palace guard is palace guard.
asciilifeform: vizier was iirc counted as in same chart, and was defo l1.
asciilifeform: but perhaps moar complicated, asciilifeform is not expert turkist.
mircea_popescu: but yes, personal slaves of sultan. and i can see why, and i thought thence all the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856322 style comments. what i can't see is why they'd make them boys. orphans or not, there's still http://trilema.com/2018/traditional-family-vs-the-harem-a-comparative-study/ that controls.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 04:01 asciilifeform: it's a q for the current board. i suggested to ask hanbot because hanbot is known as a very skilled organizational hand, and not currently running anyffing ( aside from, possibly, mircea_popescu's janissary corps )
asciilifeform: but upstack, pretty sure i grasp the point re contracts, they are not substitute for actual cohesion , and anyone who tries to substitute , ends up with obummer's empire, yes
BingoBoingo: In other notes, do not accept invitations to sleep in other people's cars https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/un-hombre-fue-asesinado-en-parque-batlle-mientras-dormia-dentro-de-un-auto-201810111743
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856463 << nope, but i ended up finding : it was polarbeard, and item was never absorbed into flagship
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856363 << iirc you wrote it.
BingoBoingo: ^ asciilifeform Does the photographed intersection look familiar (actual event reportedly a block or so north)
mircea_popescu: all the foregoing aside, i very much hope mod6 dun take any of it as some kind of personal rebuff. i agree with all the others who like him very much, because i also.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: link to photo ? i'm not seeing a photo
mod6: Thanks mircea_popescu, and all. Nothing personal taken.
mod6: I think, and I guess I could be wrong here, that it could be a good time to bring in some new leadership to the foundation.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: does look familiar
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's on Avenida General Riviera, along the walk from datacenter city to "center" city
mod6: Right now, I've got two major struggles. The Foundation, which I feel like I've been at least successful at the trb curation end of (and am certainly much more well suited for), and Pizarro.
diana_coman: PeterL - was waiting on your patch for the 255 instead of 256 error on keccak but since it didn't come, I patched it http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/comment-page-1/#comment-4254 ; ref http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856345
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 09:04 diana_coman: phf, please add the fix patch to eucrypt http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-391.0-399.38
BingoBoingo really getting a kick out of seeing his everyday places in the news
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the advantage of a small oriental republic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856495 << at some point gotta explain why the sultans with boys built empire, and the fella with roxy, pushed it off cliff
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:35 mircea_popescu: but yes, personal slaves of sultan. and i can see why, and i thought thence all the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856322 style comments. what i can't see is why they'd make them boys. orphans or not, there's still http://trilema.com/2018/traditional-family-vs-the-harem-a-comparative-study/ that controls.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you hold the view caesar pushed republic off cliff ?
mod6: Pizarro, on the other hand, I'm more of a fish out of water.
asciilifeform: all 'pushings' have this inflexion point, sorta how it worx. consider how stalin both 'built' and 'pushed'.
mircea_popescu: well, let us look into this. so at the time caesar was "pushing republic off cliff", the republic had a serious problem, which caesar hadn't created (the marii had created, and the bleg senate had created).
mod6: It's hard, I'm super conflicted about the whole thing.
mircea_popescu: there were a number of leadership lines trying to deal with it. there was the cicero- "be manlier" writer line. there was the caesar "divine right of great people" line. there was the pre-nero/napoleon fuck it all and let's party line (recall the schmuck that adopted himself by a peon to qualify for plebeian dignities ?)
mircea_popescu: any of these had prevailed, the republic'd have died. so why caesar's fault ? cuz he won ?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856404 -> ugh; to my mind a chair position is precisely not a "here's detailed list of tasks" position, it can't be
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:35 asciilifeform: at the risk of 'bureaucratism', i'd suggest to mod6 & ben_vulpes to amend charter to explicitly make clear the duties of the chair, prior to swapping chairs. but would be curious to see what mircea_popescu thinks.
asciilifeform: goes with winning. folx blame e.g. lenin for 9000 things he similarly 'hadn't created'.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm sold.
mircea_popescu: fine. then that's my explanation : suleyman the magnificent, in spite of being the ~best leader sublime porte ever had, nevertheless "fucked it" because he happened to walk into the room as corpse croaked.
mircea_popescu: i don't necessarily disagree -- but the explanation stands as such.
mod6: I love trb, and doing the foundation. I take a very measured, meticulous, methodical, and detail oriented approach to the work to provide a very sound patch set -- as best as I can.
mircea_popescu: (the schmuck in question, whiom i wil lstubbornly not name, was so adept at rabble rousing, pompey had trouble leaving his fucking house. notwithstanding pompey stood with caesar approx in the position the duke of exter stood with the leading perfume seller on the strand.)
mod6: I feel like I can be pretty successful in doing that, it's the other things that I feel like I'm lacking -- a senseable direction to a 'Standford'.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856366 << imo syslogger should be abolished altogether. before systemd it wasn't obvious to me what it is -- but now, plenty obvious. "unified logging" terrible idea.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:09 asciilifeform doesn't use any fancy redirection-to-sys-logger for trb log, and doesn't intend to
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856363 it's in the tree and works fine for me >> http://btcbase.org/patches/genesis#L5782
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:08 asciilifeform: incidentally, does anyone remember wtf happened to the 'log timestamps' patch for trb ? who wrote it, and how come it never made it into the flagship tree ?
mod6: I'm really lacking in the 'sales' end of things with Pizarro too, obviously.
mod6: It's been a tough year. Somehow, we've got to make it work.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:15 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856334 << ianal, but aint that the ~whole point of 'international maritime law' ? where iirc once insurance pays, the sunken cargo turns into 'buried treasure' and belongs to whoever lifts it, no questions asked ?
diana_coman: I certainly think mod6 is and has been doing a great job in maintaining the v-tree for trb - and as I said before, I don't think it's something linked to tbf chair position
mod6: Thanks diana_coman.
mod6: One other thing that I should note here, perhaps, is that I feel like I really get into the work deep into thought; when doing the trb related work.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856375 << let's give it a public reading, then. it says : "1. Bitcoin is a far reaching innovation with effects unknown and unknowable. 2. It is altogether probable that its effects will conflict with all currently established human conventions. 3. Maintaining the core values as established by the original author in the form of a reference implementation that is lightweight, coherent and cru
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:22 asciilifeform: i could even see an argument that the charter could permit 'trb-i' work under the flag of tbf. but that's as far as it goes, per my reading
mircea_popescu: ft-free in face of this conflict requires deliberate effort involving multiple people, which in turn require management and guidance. 4. ``THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION'' will endeavour to provide these, while fostering community growth and development, under the general principle that if and when any other thing conflicts with Bitcoin, that other thing must either be discontinued or amended in such a way as to no longer conflict w
mircea_popescu: ith Bitcoin."
mircea_popescu: now, when and how did 3 kill 4 ?
mod6: And before the republic, I was very much a one-thing-at-a-time type of engineer. Seems like over the last year or maybe 18 months, I feel like I'm context switching so much, that I find it hard to get deep into the thinking that I need to. For instance, it bothers me that I still haven't found time to work through FFA.
mod6: (All of this, my fault, ofc, just saying 'outloud').
mod6: Not only FFA, but other parts of TRB that I'd love to educate myself upon. I think you take my meaning.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856376 << yet new ones are born every day. thousands of girls underwent puberty as we sat and spoke today, are they also excluded, "all women that'll ever be are already here" ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:22 asciilifeform: ( and imho all of the people qualified to work on trbi, are already here, they dun need to see duck races to be persuaded to come... )
mircea_popescu: the girl i last fucked in the ass was... NINE years old last i visited the us. and at the time i last visited the us, "all the women that were with me -- were with me" also.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856377 << well, the way i read the 1-2-3-4 progression from above is that "it is focused but not limited to trb, supposed to outreach from it".
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:22 diana_coman: asciilifeform, my understanding is that tbf's scope is not limited to trb, nor focused specifically mainly on trb
mircea_popescu: the "focused" part is imo not in dispute. the "limited to" part, though, maybe ?
diana_coman: yes, it's better stated that way: focused but not limited to trb
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856381 << kinda the idea though -- if uncharted territory stays uncharted... well ? what are we, the folk living across from zanzibar, waiting for indonesians to come over and discover it, because it's easier for them to cover 5k miles than for us 50 ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:23 asciilifeform: diana_coman: that's uncharted territory..
diana_coman: mod6, I know what you mean re too-many-things-at-once (from my pov also, ideally 1 at a time but that's a luxury that I rarely get to fully indulge in, what can I say)
diana_coman: heh, my next line there :P
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856536 << indeed !! somehow amnesiaed right out of asciilifeform's head. puzzler solved.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:54 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856363 it's in the tree and works fine for me >> http://btcbase.org/patches/genesis#L5782
asciilifeform: ty Mocky
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856534 << non-kernelistic but 'systemwide' logging is an unfortunate artifact of unixism, where there are processes that dun have write permissions anywhere but nevertheless must log
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856366 << imo syslogger should be abolished altogether. before systemd it wasn't obvious to me what it is -- but now, plenty obvious. "unified logging" terrible idea.
asciilifeform: i dun see why it would apply to trb tho, trb must have write or it cannot store blox.
mircea_popescu: give them write permissions to /tmp
asciilifeform: tmp is not reliably kept.
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: so not fit for logging.
mircea_popescu: very fit for the logging specificallty discussed here.
asciilifeform: 'oops the log is gone, randomly' is fucktarded.
mircea_popescu: if you don't care to give item permission to write, stfu about log.
mircea_popescu: and thjis is what i'm sayuing : this is misdesigned. i'm not about to fuck my system so some moron somewhere can miswrite his program.
asciilifeform: i want e.g. nginx to log, but to not have write permission anywhere else. unix offers no way to do this aside from the current horror.
mircea_popescu: so give it permission to /log/nginx
asciilifeform: how ?
mircea_popescu: make a fucking /log mount point, like you already have swap
BingoBoingo: log in directory daemon already read/writes, simplifies future ports to BeOS, DOS, etc
asciilifeform: and how to give just 1 process ? a group per process ? ugly.
asciilifeform: the whole unix permissions thing is a massive crock of shit
asciilifeform: and will have to be bulldozed at some point..
mircea_popescu: but i very much disagree "systemwide" "log mechanism" is either acceptable or necessary. leaving "a good idea" way far behind and to the left.
asciilifeform: it's braindamaged. but i gotta point out why i haven't said how to demolish it -- cuz haven't yet conceived of how to do so w/out losing what imho is essential function
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856387 << and if not figure out, at least work towards figuring out. there's a difference between "i found no rock but here's 500 clumps of earth i tried" and "i don't understand whart a rock would be"
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:25 diana_coman: I think that's precisely what the chairs need to figure out: "what might fit under this " and be useful, ofc
asciilifeform: centralized logging actually has at least 1 known win -- i can dump all logs, or subset of'em, to tape printer
asciilifeform: without individually fucking with each proggy that shits'em
mircea_popescu: why are you dumping logs you don't know about ? "for later" ?
asciilifeform: who said 'don't know about'
asciilifeform: simply to not open 9000 hoods, when can open 1.
asciilifeform: sorta how yer house has a mains breaker that toggles whole panel, and not simply 50 individual breakers.
mircea_popescu: but you can't open one. the question is how you rig the opening of the 9000 hoods.
mircea_popescu: now, intuitively, and from an actual electrical engineering standpoint, it seems intuitively right -- "rather than have wires through house connecting 9000 breakers, just have a mains breaker".
asciilifeform: imho it's an open problem.
asciilifeform: ( observe that civilized house has both main breaker ~and~ subs )
mircea_popescu: HOWEVER, computing-electrical engineering befuddles this intuition. for computers -- much betterf to have the wires than to fuck the upstream design
mircea_popescu: because UNLIKE electrics, where the flow is pantsuiot, and any portion of wire == any other, computers are hierarchied. the early portions of wire priviledged over the later.
asciilifeform: tape printer is a constrained device, if you let >1 proggy operate it at same time, it will output garbage ( lines inside other lines etc )
mircea_popescu: so the cost of having the computer equivalent of "mains breaker" is so disproportionately immense, the 9000 wires gain exponentially.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform have a script that collates the logs you want and produce a flow.
mircea_popescu: rather than have a "system log".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aint that whole idea of 'system log' to begin with ?
asciilifeform: i.e. item that collates desired flows.
mircea_popescu: (which is -- a bug ridden, half assed, "universal" ie dysfunctional, implementation of THE SAME SCRIPT)
asciilifeform: and yes the existing item is bug-ridden.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the sense "the whole idea of the fuck channel is to do your fucking for you". you gonna watch fuck channel ?
asciilifeform: but i read orig mircea_popescu observation as opposing very notion of collated log.
mircea_popescu: "no -- they're doing it the wrong way with the wrong women, it does nothing for me"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i am opposing having a mcdonalds log.
asciilifeform: then i cannot disagree
asciilifeform: would like to expel mc-anyffing from the system, yes.
mircea_popescu: "some people who don't give a shit made this slop out of something or the other" mcdrepperism.
asciilifeform: sane collated logging is imho major wish list item for fyootoor cuntoo.
mircea_popescu: just as long as we don't end up with a "kernel module"
asciilifeform: i dun see why kernel gotta be involved.
mircea_popescu: but it ... fucking is. and they have a binary format now, too. saw that ?
mircea_popescu: and so fucking on.
asciilifeform: the dreppers can, demonstrably, fuck up anyffing, if you let'em build a chair, it'll have a spiked cock protruding. and maybe six.
asciilifeform: it doesn't have much bearing on the problems faced by actual people, aside from drepper-extermination.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856392 << i thought the idea was to add a third. what take over ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 14:28 asciilifeform: way i see it, if hanbot takes over mod6's duties, then oughta at least carry on what he was doing ( i.e. maintenance of the flagship tree, testing of candidate patches )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i misread, mod6 asked to be relieved of the duty.
mircea_popescu: well... ok, but that is a latter development that'd be a separate issue. you'd want a third AND a mod6 replacement then.
asciilifeform: right !
asciilifeform: was asciilifeform's whole point, earlier
asciilifeform: 'yes explore antarctica, sure, but also crops gotta still be harvested back home'
mod6: Oh, you wanted a third? I didn't catch that.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:07 mircea_popescu: mod6 do you want to name someone to join into the chairdom ?
mircea_popescu: i have this vague notion that the idea always was that you two will at some point summon a third.
mircea_popescu: ~then~, after that gets established, one can step down, add another, and so on. like a steps process, with continuity and everything.
mircea_popescu: i don't recall now if this was specifically said re foundation or only re qntra, but the two are ~same period, in any case,
mircea_popescu: i'd expect the mechanism'd be regarded universally.
asciilifeform: it's the historic norm in sane undertakings, yes
asciilifeform: Mocky et al: i'ma restart with timestamps, and from here on.
mod6: mircea_popescu: ah, ok, which is basically how the charter reads in that section 0x2 para 3.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the " mod6 left by himself in empty hall of foundation" not so sane situation for a mod6 to find himself into.
mod6: True enough.
mircea_popescu: a right, there it is even.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856553 << lol, seems to me that we regularly argue opposite sides of this puzzler. but yes, i'd luvv for there to be somewhere a hidden reserve of sane folx who will join republic and do quality work. but somehow they aint here yet, and i'm inclined to agree with mircea_popescu's much earlier hypothesis, where they either dun exist or are buried beneath such thick pantsuit iceberg that no drill pres
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 16:03 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856376 << yet new ones are born every day. thousands of girls underwent puberty as we sat and spoke today, are they also excluded, "all women that'll ever be are already here" ?
asciilifeform: ently built , can reach'em
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Still somehow this year Mocky fished himself up and defected to the Republic
mircea_popescu: this time it's about "make them" rather than "pre-existing"
mircea_popescu: the previous time, it was about "names -- only names in their own heads", djb, rms, whatever.
mircea_popescu: imo accounts for the alternation.
asciilifeform: makes sense
asciilifeform: meanwhile in the trb observatory, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cMfST/?raw=true << restarted zoolag, and confirms my earlier hypothesis -- 'bastards' from friendlies are simply when they throw their latest block blindly at each peer, without concern for who actually can eat it, and who cannot. shitoshi's shit protocol.
mircea_popescu: lookup is hard, and if he makes it the size it shnould be, it might crash.
asciilifeform: the 'push' model of block propagation, is simply wrong.
asciilifeform: ( or rather, is incompatible with 'no se fia' )
mod6: your latest includes ben's extra aggression vpatch?
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/new-zealand-instituting-digital-customs-searches/ << Qntra - New Zealand Instituting "Digital Customs" Searches
asciilifeform: mod6: nope. only my orig one
asciilifeform: mod6: ben_vulpes's patch is on my conveyor tho.
asciilifeform: and i'm beginning to suspect that it, or some variant thereof, is The Right Thing
asciilifeform: with my orig, a node can happily sit for potentially years without getting new blox.
mod6: Thanks for the work/analysis.
asciilifeform: i abolished shitoshi's 'speshulness' of ~boot time~, but to make ~peer connection time~ similarly speshul, is also mistake.
asciilifeform: noads oughta regularly demand next valid block from peers.
asciilifeform: cuz otherwise they'll only be sent whatever's getting pushed, and it'll almost always be 'bastard' from their pov.
mod6: he must have operated under the impression that guy reboots his windows machine every day or some wild idea.
mircea_popescu: no, that was exactly it.
asciilifeform: gotta be
mircea_popescu: bitcoin was originally designed to work in the manner kids run doom -- turn it on now and again
mircea_popescu: modesty is just as often a sin as it is a virtue.
asciilifeform: it's jawdropping retardation, but entirely on par with shitoshi's style.
mod6: I refuse to hate on the guy, really.
mircea_popescu: "law enforcement officials and bureaucrats are the only known demographic interested in consuming child porn." << word.
mircea_popescu: mod6 hate is not mandatory, we're a very piss poor excuse for a cult.
mod6: I am somewhat sad about the state of the bitcoin poc as created by satoshi, but I'm still very much glad we have it.
mod6: Good thing trb has burned off many warts. However, some warts are so deep, would kill the paitent.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:43 mod6: Pizarro, on the other hand, I'm more of a fish out of water.
mod6: Well, I've never really run a business before -- and, I have pretty much zero sales/marketing exp.
mircea_popescu: do you in principle not want to / want to never run a business ever ?
mod6: Well, it's not that I don't want to, I'd like it if we could somehow get the train moving down the track. Just worried that I don't have the know-how for this.
mircea_popescu: do you know anyone who iyo is good at sales ? irl i mean ?
mod6: My old man was.
mod6: I don't think those skills rubbed off.
mod6: I've spent my life behind a screen, so it doesn't come very naturally to me.
mircea_popescu: no but i mean someone alive whom you know, not kew.
mod6: Maybe a few, here and there over the years.
mircea_popescu: alright, so make a list of the few, walk up to them and explain what problem you're encountering, and ask whether they'd be willing to either mentor or participate.
mircea_popescu: worst case, you're out whatever drinks among old acquaintances cost you. there's worse fates.
mod6: This is worthwhile. I've got a vector that I'd like to start into with sales -- as far as a market. Maybe one of these guys could help me get going.
mod6: mircea_popescu: true
mircea_popescu: life's given to selfperfect, after all.
mircea_popescu: i dunno if anyone burns in hell for fucking girls too young, or too roughly, or drinking too much or burping in church. but i see it altogether possible that you show up before st peter and he's like "shit shane, you STILL suck at sales ?! off to the ovens with you, for shame!"
mircea_popescu: i'm not even kidding!
mod6: Yeah, I've gotta figure it out.
BingoBoingo: Aite, who the fuck tried to call me from Senegal
mircea_popescu: your next gf ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: maybe dhl ?
BingoBoingo: No, DHL calls from inside Uruguay
mod6: We have your "airplane" ready.
mircea_popescu: "herro sir your package very much ready at rk haus in senegal!"
BingoBoingo: ANd they don't do the one ring disappear bulshit
asciilifeform: then 'prince with millions', who else..
mircea_popescu: all halal!
BingoBoingo: I'm leaning towards suspecting the robocall scammers hacked a Uruguayo office and under the impression Uruguay is a "rich" company have decided to pilfer
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i get china regularly. but they go via pwned usa boxen.
asciilifeform: ( lotsa folx in usa, esp. on the sadder telcos, have foreign call switched off entirely )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:58 mod6: One other thing that I should note here, perhaps, is that I feel like I really get into the work deep into thought; when doing the trb related work.
mod6: Yeah, I think so.
mod6: I kinda miss that.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856550 << ah, this may be a problem, i guess. i suppose is what i meant by http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855743
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:59 mod6: And before the republic, I was very much a one-thing-at-a-time type of engineer. Seems like over the last year or maybe 18 months, I feel like I'm context switching so much, that I find it hard to get deep into the thinking that I need to. For instance, it bothers me that I still haven't found time to work through FFA.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:05 mircea_popescu: i kinda have in the back of my mind this impression that poor shane's ended up stuck with a large number of loose ends to juggle.
mircea_popescu: now and again activity gotta be rationalized.
asciilifeform: i have exactly same problem ( '10 pounds of shit in a 1 pound bag' ) , sorta assumed mod6 et al suffer similar.
mod6: oh I must have missed that line from before.
mircea_popescu: mod6 you know it occurs to me you miss a lot of my lines!!
mod6: I actually assume it's worse for alf. I have no idea how alf can keep up in irc, and all the other things. Guy has 20,000 hands.
mircea_popescu: maybe it's all the buttsex, opens up his chakras.
mod6: mircea_popescu: I actually do read the logs, but -- again, I wish I had more time to really grok the logs. Instead of just snarf them and move on to the next thing.
asciilifeform: pretty often when going to sleep i read coupla wks of log, again & again...
asciilifeform: sometimes will actually find missed / improperly-digested nugget.
mod6: I feel like, this will improve for me -- all of it. As someday I'll break out of these mines.
mod6: Might not be that far off, either.
asciilifeform: it is imperfect approach, and unpleasantly reminiscent of how leporidae eat their grass. but i havent found substantially better algo.
mircea_popescu: i re-read logs also. i dun see the problem, what, log should be toilet paper, use once ?
asciilifeform: but ideally oughta go 'in' on 1st pass imho
mod6: Yeah, I try to re-read stuff too -- actually links within logs actually help to force ya to do it.
mod6: Gotta get your context somewhere.
asciilifeform: i do wonder sometimes how i'd organize day if i actually had whole day to tmsr
asciilifeform: but i dun expect to have this 'problem' any time soon
mircea_popescu: i dunno how hard a requirement "go on 1st pass" can be. as long as it eventually goes in...
mod6 brb, meat
asciilifeform: the sad troof is that ~all of asciilifeform's 'deep' worx (i.e. the ones that require loading a whole proggy / algo 'into head' ) happen on vacations & weekends (when the latter not filled with saecular crapola) rather than nights
asciilifeform: i cannot speak for e.g. trinque , phf, mod6 , but would not be surprised if same is the case there.
asciilifeform: the repeated 'loading' costs quite a bit of time.
asciilifeform: i.e. saturday, 'loading', sunday -- doing, then 5d of microshit, then new saturday, 'load' again...
mircea_popescu: my nonsense comes to me whenever it feels like -- in the shower, it ruined fucking once or twice also, often in the morn waking me up (the idea bladder is way the fuck worsew than the urine bladder -- which latter never ever wakes me up)...
asciilifeform: nicoleci: you have unclosed links in yer page, last 2 items
mircea_popescu: pretty sure there's numerous threads going ~always on in the background, dun need loading, loaded once. in like, 1996.
mircea_popescu: so maybe... stop rebooting brains like windows machines ? i dunno!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ideas come ~24/7. i was speaking of unrolling-into-concretes
asciilifeform: proggies, articles, theorems.
mircea_popescu: ah. now that, can be very iffy, ima yell at people interrupting.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun expect you'd have the 'reboot' problem, no.
asciilifeform: at least not in the morbid form asciilifeform gets.
asciilifeform: and yes [insert oblig thread!111] if i knew how to stop while keeping the lights on, i'd've stopped in 2013.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other lulz, "<nicoleci> omg asciilifeform <nicoleci> i couldnt load the page fast enough to fix it before he said anything <nicoleci> its already fixed but im not voiced"
asciilifeform: confirmed, fixed.
asciilifeform: but to summarize subthread -- asciilifeform gets 1 day / wk, and that's on a ~good~ wk, to run the deep drills. the rest of the time, stuck on surface.
asciilifeform: ( luckily -- perhaps -- there's plenty to do on surface )
mod6: yeah, that's pretty relateable for me
asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/asciilifeform?d=2018-10-1#437758 << meanwhile conclusion of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-20#1852509 story .
a111: Logged on 2018-09-20 14:21 asciilifeform: in other misc noose, chinese nao sell a 10inch spi-interfaced eink display thing with <1s refresh, fits on e.g. our rk3328-roc-cc board without solderings. theoretically a lappy can be hand-sewn .
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-10-01 17:55 TomServo: asciilifeform: I tried getting one of the screens you mentioned here: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-20#1852509
mod6: hey neat-o!
asciilifeform: read whole thing
mod6: oh, /me looks
mod6: awe that sucks
asciilifeform: i was able to find a film clip on www of somebody who actually got hold of the thing, and it didnt redraw in ANYTHING like 1sec
asciilifeform: so possibly for the better...
asciilifeform: 'tis a shame tho, asciilifeform would much like a rk3328 lappy that worx for whole day in open sunlight..
asciilifeform: ( no known lcd worx worth half a shit in sunlight, unless one pumps sumthing like 50 watt into the backlight, and even then )
asciilifeform: 'eink' is moar or less exactly The Right Thing for hypothetical 'thinking man's lappy'.
asciilifeform: a ~1s redraw would moar than suffice for emacs.
Mocky: plus full screen redraw not always necessary depending on how quickly 'artifact pixels' accumulate with local redraws
asciilifeform: Mocky: afaik all of the decent chipsets support 'partial draw'
asciilifeform: where you specify a rectangle etc
asciilifeform: you still need ~full draw for scrolling/paging tho
asciilifeform: i've found that i personally think palpably smoother when on balcony, in sunlight. but atm can only do this with printouts..
Mocky: yes but two types of redraw, one hard blanks out rect and then draws (amounts to 2 redraws), the other attempts update
asciilifeform: Mocky: correct
asciilifeform: the panels also have a common cathode thing for clear-all-accumulated-rubbish
asciilifeform: Mocky: the linked part was claimed to fit 'rpi header' (i.e. the 40pin thing on various arm boards, incl. our rk3328) with 0 solder or fancy interfacing. but apparently nodice.
asciilifeform: imho 'ideal' epaper gadget would simply have serial port and emulate vt100, and then could fit to anyffing at all.
Mocky: imo current eink refresh rate wants applications that have slightly different display semantics than what we have today which is based on 'full screen refresh has no cost'
asciilifeform: Mocky: depends who 'we'. e.g. mine, work ok with partial refreshing.
asciilifeform: and i expect the 'vi' users even moar so.
asciilifeform: ( hell, i'd live with 'vi' myself if that were the only cost.. )
mod6: are there any colors on ink-screen?
mod6: (ANSI colors?)
mod6: or just bw/wht?
asciilifeform: mod6: the chinese make 3color thing, but it has poorer contrast than the classical one
asciilifeform: the latter gives iirc 16 shades.
mod6: i see
asciilifeform: (4bit grey)
asciilifeform: the ordinary kind , with grey, loox indoors like 'old newspaper' but outside, in sun, is pretty great imho.
asciilifeform: i'd very willingly trade my coloured emacs for 1bit b&w thing, at least on sunny day.
asciilifeform: but i currently suspect that this is 1 of those 'only asciilifeform wants' items, and hence won't exist any time soon.
Mocky: asciilifeform, well even partial refresh on every key press isn't ideal with eink, which 'editing in place' could be greatly reduced, but perhaps crackpot idea
asciilifeform: Mocky: it'd work entirely cleanly, imho, with 'vi'
asciilifeform: where you edit 1 line at a time, and full screen is rarely drawn
mod6: what about one of these? https://www.mouser.com/new/adafruit/adafruit-raspberry-pi-7inch-display/
asciilifeform: that's an lcd, mod6
asciilifeform: and tiny, too.
mod6: 7", but yeah, i dunno i kinda like LCD. but agree, sucks outside.
mod6: im not computing outdoors much tho
asciilifeform: if you want lcd, can get it in any size, up to , idk, metres
mod6: especially in weather like we've had lately. :]
asciilifeform: thread was specifically re not-lcd.
mod6: ok. gotcha. so we could have rockchip laptop if we had a lcd?
asciilifeform: mod6: as 'suitcase' ? in principle yes. iirc we even had thread.
asciilifeform: this was always possible.
mod6: interesting, 'tis all
asciilifeform: aside from sunlight, the other win from 'eink', mod6 , is that it draws 0 current when not drawing.
asciilifeform: hence ideal for lappy.
asciilifeform: lcd, esp. if you want it to be visible in the day, draws quite heavy currents.
asciilifeform: i for instance am sitting in front of 350watt of lcd right nao.
asciilifeform: ( can very much feel the heat, even, from it )
mod6: ah, i see. makes sense.
mod6: 0 draw for longer life.
phf: adafruit sells a 3" eink screen which connects over gpio, i'm not grokking why nobody's selling anything bigger. the whole field is a mystery
asciilifeform: phf: wouldja program on a 3" screen ?!
asciilifeform: phf: funnily enuff i have that screen, experimented with use as indicator. it's dog slow.
asciilifeform: phf: you can get up to 10" panels, for ~pennies, the issue is the controller, nobody makes 1 that works with the surplus 'kindle' etc panels.
asciilifeform: and it's a fairly gnarly analogue device, with peculiar voltages and very particular ( per panel ) timings.
phf: yeah, i turned it into an "analogue" clock and left it at that
asciilifeform: it can e.g. 'display latest log line'
asciilifeform: but certainly no lappy substitute.
phf: asciilifeform: i'm somewhat familiar with the field, there's periodic hackaday posts about attempts to reverse engineer the whachamacallem refresh matrices or whatever specialized name they have
asciilifeform: phf: i read'em, intensely hand-sewn thing that works when phase of moon is just-so..
phf: closests i've gotten to eink display is a jailbroken kindle with a hacky local client of some sort (there's vnc and there's also a kindle native terminal). obviously unfit for real work
asciilifeform: d00d had fpga & buncha FETs for taking the outputs to the magic voltage, buck converter for generating same, painstakenly hand-placed ribbon connectors, etc
asciilifeform: phf: yea not really fit for adults
asciilifeform: ( who the fuck wants to contend with TWO linux boxen , with TWO batteries, etc )
asciilifeform: phf: iirc damned things are even temperature-sensitive
phf: haha, yes, i remember, you have to feed that data to that 3" eink screen
asciilifeform: phf: as i reckon, they're designed from the start to be integrated into some starvation-cheap konsoomer crapola . ergo they omit the controller.
asciilifeform: it's very spiffy tech but has fallen victim to crappleization.
asciilifeform: ( and the ones that ~do~ come with controller, are marketed to the idjit 'hackaday' crowd, and so they get this ersatz thing that half-worx )
phf: there's probably an upper bound of availability of thinking man's technology, kind of like strugatsky's "za milliard let do konca sveta". once you start hitting those limits suddenly "my baby is in hospitals these days" etc.
asciilifeform: phf: we did have the 'mass marketism' thread, aha
asciilifeform: the availability of thinking-man tech that can't be repackaged and sold to the lolcats, is ~0 .
asciilifeform: !#s faberge
a111: Logged on 2018-05-08 16:58 asciilifeform: i suspect that subtracting the rolex,vertu,patek,etc. pseudo-craftsman industrial garbage, leaves the null set tho.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Rockchip package in hand
asciilifeform: congrats BingoBoingo !!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: funnily enuff, i have word that the one you sent, also came in, will be picking it up shortly
BingoBoingo: Package was opened and sealed with tape reading "Terminal de Cargas Uruguay"
BingoBoingo: Let's see what the tape on yours says
phf: asciilifeform: i'm mostly making a humorous point. there was after all a time when you could connect your commodore to your cathode ray tube
a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 03:58 asciilifeform: and here is where we meet up with vlsi boojum: you can't do vlsi economically if there is room for six computers total.
asciilifeform: phf: there was, and, observe, it went away.
asciilifeform: under the humorous, there's a pretty tragic loss.
asciilifeform: and entirely pinnable on the lolcat-market.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu refers to it as 'the killer micro problem'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you can swing by the dc today, stuff 2 of the new drives into dulap plox.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will do in a bit
asciilifeform: ( i'ma image'em for the 2 currently dead pilotplant boxen )
asciilifeform: the living, we can move later, as the customers permit us to schedule downtime
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: fit the hedgehogs 1st plox.
asciilifeform: ( rubbing alcohol clean the surface, then stick on as many as fit , per )
asciilifeform: i gotta take off my hat to BingoBoingo's orccraft skillz.
asciilifeform: tbh i did not expect to see this crate surface.
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> asciilifeform: Rockchip package in hand << hey! Some good news 'eh.
mod6: Glad to hear it.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will do after icing knee\
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lol i thought you didn't even have motorcycle yet!111
BingoBoingo: I hit it on this here desk I've managed not to hit hundreds of times already
BingoBoingo: Then I navigated poorly behaved zombie crowds
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: oh hey, post a pic of the epic crate.
BingoBoingo: All the stop start, change speed, twist pivot, plant shoulder for impact did a number on the thing
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Going to give it a dignified posting
BingoBoingo: And deedbot should be linking pic post soon
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/10/01/unboxing-and-alfajor-oreo/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Unboxing And Alfajor Oreo
mod6: holy shit, they packed a cookie in there after they opened the bag?
BingoBoingo: No, I brought the cookie
BingoBoingo: Getting the bag was occasion enough to justify eating the cookie
mod6: I was like, sonsofbitches are trying to kill you.
BingoBoingo: Brb, walking to Dulap
a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 19:41 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Package is in the mail
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 20:01 mod6: holy shit, they packed a cookie in there after they opened the bag?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: item showed no obvious signs of molestation.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. prolly passed as 'paper' )
asciilifeform: ( speaking of the parcel with the dead drives )
asciilifeform: the dissection prolly won't happen till weekend tho.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: One of the spiffy new sticks is in Dulap. Their individual height is too great to double up
asciilifeform: got the heatsinks on ?
BingoBoingo: I have heatsinks on two at the moment
BingoBoingo: But without the heatsinks still too tall to double up (keychain retainer)
BingoBoingo: Still very spiffy pieces of kit
asciilifeform: this'll remain to be seen
asciilifeform: the old ones also seemed great until rot.
asciilifeform: i went with 'heat' as hypothesis re lifespan, and so got these with moar surface , plus room for hedgehog
asciilifeform: yet still imho the particular style of death the old ones died, was quite peculiar.
asciilifeform: and not really consistent with typical picture of ssd death.
BingoBoingo: Well, these feel like the sort of thing mircea_popescu could fill up a sack with and use for beating passers-by. The old ones not so much
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( i.e. prolly passed as 'paper' ) << How are you enjoying the tourist information?
asciilifeform: gave to pet to read
asciilifeform: ( mostly old noose, for me )
asciilifeform: it made a+++ packaging tho, recommended for fyootoor use
BingoBoingo: I'll try to find more
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , lobbes , let BingoBoingo & asciilifeform know when is good day to take down yer units and copy contents to new drives.
asciilifeform: ( i expect operation will take ~3hr per. )
BingoBoingo: We can prolly also insert drives for self copying
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: linux is retarded enuff that can't properly copy from living drive
asciilifeform: so gotta happen in dulap.
asciilifeform: dd_rescue .
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , lobbes , also give signal re whether you want the newer iptables-enabled kernel to go on your boot sd , when we take the boxen down ( iirc we already did mod6's )
mod6: iirc ya, mine should be up-to-date
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , lobbes : if yer feeling brave, can also keep old drive on usb2 jack, as auxiliary storage, see just how long they live...
asciilifeform: ( pizarro per se has no use for the old drives once we get errybody onto the new )
mod6: sounds good to me
asciilifeform: rk, in case anyone forgot, has 1 usb3 and usb2 holes.
asciilifeform: ( some folx have FG, those will have 1 empty hole )
asciilifeform: *2 usb2
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/photo-french-president-macron-finds-dem-bucks/ << Qntra - Photo: French President Macron Finds Dem Bucks
BingoBoingo: Photo post because for some reason the Qntra title and link bot still hasn't been banned from twitter
lobbes: asciilifeform BingoBoingo: anytime tomorrow (or tonight) worx for me. I've got my blog backed up so feel free to go-ahead whenever ready
lobbes: I would also love an iptable-enabled kernel. And ditto on keeping the old drive as an auxiliary; may as well eh
asciilifeform: lobbes: got it, we'll do yours tomorrow
BingoBoingo: lobbes: ty, will coordinate with alf to get you hooked up
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: drive for RK-A currently being written
asciilifeform: oughta be ready when you wake up
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Cool
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aaactually it's ready now
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: emplace it at your earliest.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc 'C' was the other dead ?
BingoBoingo: Lemme check the notes
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Yes, will walk over to the DC and swap sticks
BingoBoingo: When I was over earlier the boards were noticeably cooler to the touch
asciilifeform: oughta be, with the blower, neh
BingoBoingo: Doesn't feel like much air moving, but it's working
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know when ready
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: A is powered up as are the fans. Added a few more 5v ports
BingoBoingo: evenin mod6
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Drive for C placed in dulap as well
mod6: workin' on the pizarro stuff here...
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ok gimme 5m
asciilifeform: A confirmed operational.
asciilifeform: nao lemme set up 'B'..
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: C
asciilifeform: ah yes
BingoBoingo: mod6 lives in B
asciilifeform: ok 'C' will be ready in ~5min
BingoBoingo: Aite, lemme walk back to the datacenter
asciilifeform: bring all of the drives
asciilifeform: ok BingoBoingo when you get there, feel free to re-ignite C ( disk is ready )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: then power down lobbes's unit and put its disk in dulap, i'ma snapshot
mircea_popescu: in other not really news, there's something very pretty about a slavegirl examining her welts in disbelief.
asciilifeform: lol, was it n00b's 1st thrashing or wat
mod6: i know what that's like
mircea_popescu: well, first trashing with this particular implement.
mod6: hockey stick?
mircea_popescu: nah, there;s this special plastic thing, leaves these... love kisses, let's call them.
mircea_popescu: uberpainful hickeys.
mircea_popescu: especially made for hurting girls, really. gets say the oh-so-delicate inner thigh to perfection.
mod6: oh yeah, lot of nerve endings there. that smarts.
asciilifeform: reminds me of... i gotta have seen it in a mircea_popescu article, can't think where else could've. that thing in egypt, made from hippo leather
asciilifeform: what was it called.
mod6: hippos in these parts just disgust me
asciilifeform: mod6: was a traditional whipping stick
asciilifeform: tho iirc i first encountered it under some other name
mircea_popescu: do you mean my dragon tail ?
asciilifeform: i've nfi, i have not seen mircea_popescu's inventory, dunno which is dragon's tail
mircea_popescu: apparently no published pic.
asciilifeform: loox like, or i'd recall
asciilifeform: iirc hippo-skin whip was mentioned in a mircea_popescu piece re egypt pre-british
asciilifeform: was in some vintage txt quote
asciilifeform: kurbash !
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856794 << you might be the first fellow to palpate a thought.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 18:47 asciilifeform: i've found that i personally think palpably smoother when on balcony, in sunlight. but atm can only do this with printouts..
asciilifeform: i palpate'em, to borrow a mircea_popescuism, 'in both holes' !11
mircea_popescu: kurbash tk = girbaci ro.
asciilifeform: so as far as ro, exquisite hippo leather..
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856800 << possibly the correct solution is to go back to 1980s handcalc state of the art, declare CELLS.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 18:53 Mocky: imo current eink refresh rate wants applications that have slightly different display semantics than what we have today which is based on 'full screen refresh has no cost'
mircea_popescu: then a) no moar unicode and b) full screen update ~costless.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, the historical/trad ru кнут was considered 'proprietary tech', all examples were inventoried, and afaik none survived the 19th c prohibition on the whipping
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that would rock.
mircea_popescu: ro has cnut ; they were handmade throughout
asciilifeform: word ended up generic 'whip' in modern ru, but there was a specific item, and whipper was considered skilled trade, with year+ apprenticeship
mircea_popescu: ro generic is "bici", whip. cnut is specifically weighted item
asciilifeform: ( the skill lay in administering 'just right' amt of thrashing, to turn a '10 strokes' into a death sentence, or 200 into survivable/educational )
mircea_popescu: i doubt 200 were ever survived. but sure, 40.
asciilifeform: they were, on record
asciilifeform: the obvious way -- whipper would artfully miss
asciilifeform: in return, of course, for bakshish
asciilifeform: on which he'd live.
asciilifeform: the moar astonishing phact, is that the punishment was typically administered by ~two~ whippers, and they'd have to coordinate re 'speshul order'.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856804 << speaking of this, i find it INSUFFERABLE that irc has semantics for "change colors" but has not semantics for a href.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 18:53 mod6: are there any colors on ink-screen?
mircea_popescu: if we ever end up doing our own network, i utterly want this patched out.
asciilifeform: ( i recently read a old ru treatise re subj, will dig up the link if anybody really wants )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm not aware of colour in irc
asciilifeform: at least, it dun seem to exist in any of my clients
mircea_popescu: read teh spec.
mod6: Don'tcha remember mod6's irssi?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856815 <<i'd try it if it existed ; but i work on desktops.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 18:58 asciilifeform: but i currently suspect that this is 1 of those 'only asciilifeform wants' items, and hence won't exist any time soon.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaactually the koreans make one for desk
mircea_popescu: yes but i don't have problems with the elements at my desk.
mircea_popescu: i can also position girls with palm leaves on balcony, or just mere tits. but we'll skip this.
asciilifeform: costs coupla kilobux.
asciilifeform: prolly worx ok with chix, palm leaves, etc.
mod6: the spines on the palm leaves tho, ouch
asciilifeform: ( the korean thing is interesting in that they jacked up the current and thing refreshes fast enuff to play 'doom'... )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856831 << this is a very solid point. add to it that cuntoo won't support gnome, and suddenly you see it : rk draws 15miliAmps, screen draws an average of i dunno, .6. suddenly a 5kAh battery lasts... 5k hours.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 19:04 asciilifeform: aside from sunlight, the other win from 'eink', mod6 , is that it draws 0 current when not drawing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta the main thrust behind asciilifeform's interest
asciilifeform: the balcony thing is secondary
asciilifeform: i specifically ~like~ that microshit victim couldn't use it.
mircea_popescu: and weighs as much as a babyduck.
mircea_popescu: so yes, not entirely sad thought.
asciilifeform: indeed, coupla gram
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856839 <<< remember when all the chickies programmed their sms'en on 2 inch screens, 2.1 button presses per character on avg ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 19:07 asciilifeform: phf: wouldja program on a 3" screen ?!
asciilifeform: lol programmed
mod6: ye ole t9?
mod6: i don't know how the fuck they did that shit. my girl could do it blind
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856857 << these limits are everywhere. "we deliver" "no you don't" / "restaurants exist" "no they don't : http://trilema.com/2017/fake-news-are-just-one-tail-of-the-failed-female-state/ " and so on. the world essentially consists of the ~assumptions~ of existence and function of a large crowd of morons who never test these.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 19:19 phf: there's probably an upper bound of availability of thinking man's technology, kind of like strugatsky's "za milliard let do konca sveta". once you start hitting those limits suddenly "my baby is in hospitals these days" etc.
mircea_popescu: so you know, "usa is the powerfulest thing ever" "reheheally" / "oh, #metoo matters" "where ?" and so on ad infinitum.
mircea_popescu: "we are the premiere science and technology nothingatall in teh world!" "then how come the world series is always in fucking iowa"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in asciilifeform's torture room , term is 'lithium battery'
mircea_popescu: right ?
asciilifeform: these have their nominal voltage 4evah
mircea_popescu: "oh, problem solved!!!" "dude...."
asciilifeform: even 20yrs in dumpster
asciilifeform: but measure it under any load..
mircea_popescu: exactly! i agree, this is the icon of the problem. lithium batteries, everywhere. precisely-so.
asciilifeform: ( this is a property of ordinary li cells, the kind in chinesium wristwatch, or yer bios, rather than the lappy type )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 19:21 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Rockchip package in hand
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only in hand, but BingoBoingo is in there nao and we revived 2 units and nao doing lobbes's
asciilifeform: ( going as we speak )
asciilifeform: rk units A & C are ready forbiznis.
asciilifeform: diana_coman & mod6 will get brand new disks when they signal readiness for downtime
mod6: I'll get to ya in like a week or so.
mod6: well, as soon as I get this report done.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 20:01 mod6: holy shit, they packed a cookie in there after they opened the bag?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nice. << New drive cases transfer substantially more heat, have much more mass, surface area, etc
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: can you get a quick photo of these ?
asciilifeform: for the l0gz
mircea_popescu: kinda what the whole thing is all about ; moat made of earned knowledge and so on.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: photo grabbed, will upload when I return to coffee pot. Juggling enough memory devices as is
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lobbes got maybe 5min moar to roll, i think
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i assume hedgehogs on ?
BingoBoingo: hedgehogs on, one per drive
asciilifeform: i was thinking 1 would also fit on bottom
asciilifeform: hence bought 20pack
BingoBoingo: Could be done, but not while fitting another drive in dulap
asciilifeform: this is ok, stick'em on prior to emplacement
asciilifeform: ( and into A an' C if you can reach . )
asciilifeform: also ok to power down A/C to do this, they are unoccupied
asciilifeform: i want max hedgehog on these.
BingoBoingo: Can reach, no need to power down to do this. Can't really power down safely at the A/C feed either. Individual lines are all D/C
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: next crate will contain usb extenders, so the 'dun fit 2' stops being issue
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: he's got 40GB , loox like. so may have to come back in morning.
asciilifeform: btw lobbes in case you care, it's almost all apache error log...
asciilifeform: we will faithfully preserve it on new disk !
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unless you want to spend next 2 hrs in the bilge, go ahead an' sleep.
BingoBoingo: Aite, pulling out. Still ping when it finishes. Will prolly be up a while tonight.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'ma go an' do eat/sleep-type things shortly, so lemme know if anyffing else need
asciilifeform: if it's done before i turn in, will ping , aite.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell nicoleci s/to/too
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ( >1 pos )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 404
asciilifeform: defo want on 2sides tho.
mod6: oh nice, gonna put them heat-sinks on top and bottom 'eh?
BingoBoingo: Right, second heatsinks going on when they make it into the RockChips
mod6: Lords and Ladies of TMSR~: Update on 22.214.171.124 (The Bitcoin Foundation's 2nd node), this TRB machine will be shutdown tomorrow morning, to be packed up and brought to texas (it's new home). We anticipate this box to come back online on-or-around November 15th.