ben_vulpes: mod6: can i get a hand with some c++? i can't figure out how to iterate over the params array in sendtoaddresswithchange with boost or more naive iterators http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7TlSw/?raw=true
mod6: oh, ok.
mod6: i'll take a look here in a sec.
mod6: you could do it with an iterator too, but that's not quite as clean.
mod6: which also leads me to see that in your code, you're attempting to use an iterator to loop over a map<string, string> , and add the keys to argKeys. but you never did set the iterator to mapArgs.begin()
mod6: so that might need to be fixed.
mod6: well, there's also some syntactical problems, here's the fixes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/TI85U/?raw=true
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in entomology dept, https://archive.li/IAUet >> orlol,'Barbarians Rampage through Europe's Cemetery'
asciilifeform: and meanwhile , ftr, all three cr50 pubkeyz withstood phuctoring
asciilifeform: !!up tim17
deedbot: tim17 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: tim17: hello ?
asciilifeform: tim17: speak your words, stranger !
tim17: asciilifeform: stfu bitch
ben_vulpes: .size() fuckin hue
asciilifeform: lol nuffin else ?
ben_vulpes: and to think i spent all that time poring over the boost docs
asciilifeform: !!down tim17
asciilifeform: some cheek.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: classic intro!
ben_vulpes: mod6: thanks
mod6: np, Sir!
mod6: good q's.
ben_vulpes: lol that's kind of you
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at one time i tried to implement more or less same item you're making, and did the shiva thing, and in the end thought that whoever it was ( mircea_popescu ? ) who suggested that trb should simply eat ( and prompt to sign ) raw tx, generated externally via scripts, was right
asciilifeform: parsing in boostolade is ugly
asciilifeform: and tx input coad is safety-critical, sapper errs once.
ben_vulpes: heh, last time i took a crack at *that* i got mired in finding unspent outputs with trb
asciilifeform: really calls for that wallet split.
asciilifeform: btw manual curation of unspent coinz will be much moar practical once the thing stops nonsensically crapping out random addrs to 'change' to
ben_vulpes: do you have any output selection scripts you keep around?
asciilifeform: prolly i'm the worst to ask, i hardly ever move coin
ben_vulpes: and yeah, i could possibly put this time into humping trinque's wallet patches down the field
mod6: unf unf
mod6: he's probably got some worthwhile changes
trinque: they're ready, being held because I haven't reground the entire tree around a manifest.
trinque: so if there's a hero around that wants to take that on, we can start getting trb patches out the door again.
ben_vulpes: for the sake of exploring the state space; it is more desirable to regrind the whole tree rather than to introduce the manifest at this point and use it going forward?
mod6: i'll regrind the whole trb tree. however, I think if we -must- do this, we should only do it one time. and i really don't even want to do it at all.
mod6: that said, everything must be pretty much "firmly" in place with V rules, manifest, naming conventions, what have you, before I wanna move on that.
mod6: everything documented and blessed.
trinque: mod6: http://trinque.org/2018/06/02/v-manifest-specification/ << can have the thread here if you like
mod6: so this is all in lisp. is it going to be simple for n00bs to get lisp installed and to run V?
trinque: eh? what's in lisp
trinque: the blog post there is talking about the manifest file format.
mod6: the "latest client" linked in the article: http://blog.esthlos.com/esthlos-v-genesis-or-who-presses-the-pressor/
mod6: Step two of the guide says "Ensure at least one of the following is installed:" "sbcl" or "ccl"
mod6: anyway, I guess I'll have to put this on the conveyor and work through all of this.
ben_vulpes: mod6: focus on the manifest design, not the v implementation linked in trinque 's post
ben_vulpes: shouldn't matter in the slightest which v impl is used
mod6: is his lisp version of V to become the new defacto thing that has manifest capabilities?
ben_vulpes: "manifest capabilities" are baked into all V implementations
trinque: there ~are no~ manifest capabilities to be had
ben_vulpes: it's a single file that collapses the tree into a pillar
trinque: the words I wrote right there gave it as an example of "this needs a manifest"
mod6: ben_vulpes: im trying to look at the big picture. the manifest spec is a part of that, ya.
mod6: alright, gents, I'll have to dig into all of this sometime.
ben_vulpes: mod6: my original q was in re why regrinding the whole tree is necessary instead of introducing the manifest now and using it going forward
trinque: ben_vulpes: because the manifest has no antecedent, and you're gonna have to go graffiti other files like an idiot
trinque: as the tree stands now, one in makefiles.vpatch, iirc
trinque imagines a house which required a tattoo on your neighbor's wife to keep standing
trinque: probably not bad metaphor for how life does it.
ben_vulpes: well in theory, but in practice everything below makefiles already needs a regrind; aggression to request newblocks if none have been advertised recently; hash truncation atop that. so there's an opportunity to significantly reduce the amount of regrinding by introducing the manifest after the makefiles release and just regrinding 2 patches instead of the whole tree. unless i misread the situation.
trinque: this must be that orthogonal language I've heard about.
mod6: i see ben's point, but i'd rather trb one whole thing, instead of a 'before manifest' and 'after manifest'.
trinque: wherever you introduce the manifest, if it is not the root, in order to involve it in the flow of the tree, that patch must also edit some other file.
mod6: opting to regrind the entire tree, and whatever other vpatches that need to be folded in that currently are not.
mod6: I can delcare the v054 release with a manifest of my own ala: To declare a "release", an author's GNS pointer for a project would point to his selected manifest.
mod6: then perhaps all the things that are still not folded in can be in a second release, or just folded in without release.
mod6: we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. but first and foremost, the manifest items seems alright to me; "$blockCount $patchTitle $patchAuthor $comment".
mod6: I read this all a while back when posted, liked it, will think on it some more -- but off hand, can't think of anything we might be missing.
ben_vulpes: s/after makefiles/in the makefiles patch/
mod6: Perhaps we need to 1: Formally adopt the manifest spec proposed by trinque, 2: build a V that supports it.
phf: trinque: ftr we have the "introduce manifest now without regrind, use it moving forward" pattern already implemented once
a111: Logged on 2018-06-15 17:26 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-15#1825631 << updated, but it's a novel way of using manifest though: normally it requires a regrind where manifest is built up as you go, so the press order is enforced through graph. right now your manifest gives a press order, that's not enforced by anything
trinque: phf: harping on it because I don't see evidence that reason for the manifest has been internalized
trinque: but yes totally possible
trinque: mod6: what do you imagine needs to change in a vtron to support the manifest?
mod6: it's just a flat file that resides in the project, ya?
phf: trinque: yeah
mod6: ah, then nothing i can think of. don't know what i was on about there.
mod6: should it be a part of a proper genesis?
mod6: because if so, then we need a new trb genesis. which doesn't effect v in anyway, just another pita for trb.
mod6: maybe a necessary one, however.
trinque: see phf's linked line above. not strictly necessary
trinque: what it means is that before that point, there isn't a manifest-enforced press order
trinque: could decide that we're fine with that historical fact. world won't implode
phf: trinque: one reason i didn't include patch name in the manifest is because patch name becomes a promise, unless you enforce it by tooling. i didn't want to go that way, but since current standard manifest does include patch name, than perhaps V ought to check the manifest against the patchset. relatedly fully manifest-based v doesn't even need graph tooling, can presumably press according to manifest's chain.
trinque: could say we want trb to be exemplar of "how to V", in which case yeah, regrind it all
mod6: hmm. maybe not required in a technical sense. but i'd like it all to hang together, and be proper. for posterity.
trinque: phf: thought I had there was that if you have only a manifest in hand, perhaps the name is useful in some dht lookup for the patches later
trinque: I agree, promisetronic without the vtron getting angry at you over mismatched name
mod6: ah, interesting point re patch name
trinque: ben_vulpes: got it; yeah, I'd say if it gets bolted on, inside the makefiles patch is a sensible place
ben_vulpes: it's either there or regrind back to the genesis
ben_vulpes: in other reports, btcfor.gifts does indeed work for small amounts
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-06-25 17:56:50: <lobbesbot> Logged on 2018-06-25 17:23:00: <mircea_popescu> in other lulz : http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-06-18.log.html#t21:39:48 ie 16.4mn is not http://lobbesblog.com/queryauctions/pricehistory/auction.php?AuctionId=221 ie 16.39999mn lobbes !!!1
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829629 << this constant worry at the margins and in the colonies as to "europe suicide". yes, obviously, if ~russia~ let a bunch of rando foreigners in, ~russia~ would disappear. but this is because russia isn't anything, let alone very much. europe is old, and throughout this oldness it "suicided" exactly in the manner described.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 16:25 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in entomology dept, https://archive.li/IAUet >> orlol,'Barbarians Rampage through Europe's Cemetery'
mircea_popescu: the result of that "suicide" was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826732 ; realise it or not, the difference between sicily and italy is described in true romance : "sicilians have nigger blood, because the moors were niggers".
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 15:53 mircea_popescu: romania had no kingdom of sicily.
mircea_popescu: experimentally, barbarian invasion does not kill europe. not when the barbaric romans ruined the etruscan and greek vases, not when barbaric germans ruined the roman vases (you know iberia is originally a place in fucking azerbaijan, yes ?) not when etcetera.
mircea_popescu: you can't ruin cunt by fucking, it's not made of soap ; and that's what europe is, the globe's cunt.
mircea_popescu: moreover, the only practical alternative to this "being the place everyone goes" is... "being the place everyone leaves", ie africa, russia, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-24#1829335 etcetera.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-24 19:33 PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818207 << sounds like where I live (Midland,MI: 50k people, you can go a mile out of town and have multiple acre lots)
mircea_popescu: it doesn't seem to work out to a better alternative ; a happenstance this current know-nothing party seems to be as blisfully unaware as the previous.
asciilifeform: civilizations live, die, i suppose to immortal olympians it isn't even particularly interesting process
asciilifeform: to the inhabitants, however -- interesting.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the inhabitants have 0 say in the process.
asciilifeform: no moar than aids patient has a say
mircea_popescu: yes, the women are getting raped. that's what they're for. their "ideals" don't enter into this, thyey wanted ideals they shoulda been born with an ideals between the legs.
mircea_popescu: while born with cunt, they get what cunts beget.
asciilifeform: at one time asciilifeform had a poster of hiv virus electromicrogram. it is very interesting-looking item. but i imagine to the folx playing host, it is interesting in very diff way..
mircea_popescu: !Qddg poz my neg hole
mircea_popescu: anyway -- to the folks playing host, it is interesting like a soviet food ratios stamp.
asciilifeform: ... said the boronated silicon !
asciilifeform: 'death by tolerasty' aint even new, iirc we had a thread re the persion variant
mircea_popescu: there's really no point of the curent bs continuing. it's lived out its last, time to re-cluny the continent.
mircea_popescu: and they're doing exactly that, and it's reasonable as it ever was, and i really dun see wtf the orlov's all about. "here's what i don't understand about astronomy" "ook ?"
asciilifeform: imho the interesting bit is not that the tower of chair falls, but how it stayed up as long as it did
mircea_popescu: exactly as described in 1984 : convincing pretense to conflict.
asciilifeform: e.g. why not orc horde in 1949, say
mircea_popescu: because people were pretending to be angry with each other back then
mircea_popescu: anger will keep a dead marriage going a few years, you noticed ?
asciilifeform: or for that matter, euro-tolerast welfare pie was as sweet in 1990s as today. why no boats of eager eaters in '90s ?
BingoBoingo: Similarly "re-newing" vows tends to kill the marriage
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or for that matter, euro-tolerast welfare pie was as sweet in 1990s as today. why no boats of eager eaters in '90s ? << Khaddafi
mircea_popescu: tell me truly : do you perceive any cultural damage in islamist "colonists" in their own mind blowing up the brutalist "buildings" erected by the last gasps of the european socialist governments ?
asciilifeform: q is why odin did not send'em 20yrs ago
mircea_popescu: maybe half of what the nazi built has some inkling of merit. but the rest, every public building built in eurpe the past century, belongs torn down.
mircea_popescu: at some point the people LIVING THERE notice this, you know ? even if dung-in-toes sheepboy orlov (laughing at the moreso-dung-in-toes other sheeboys, ha-ha!) doesn't notice this.
mircea_popescu: if he lived in the city rather than in the barn he maybe would. or maybe wouldn't, which is why he doesn't get to live in the city.
asciilifeform: btw recall how der fuhrer himself promised to tear down berlin and reformat
mircea_popescu: so there you go, everyone ends up sucking up to hitler, the intellectual giant of the 20th century.
mircea_popescu: talk about bringing salt to the snail pit.
asciilifeform: i dunno who, tho, other than the socialist lolcows, will lament the demolition of the brutalist crapola. but there is no fly/cutlet separation, louvre etc will go down with the rest
asciilifeform: ( granted, mircea_popescu is a very http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630779 sort of fella, prolly gives somewhere below a nanoshit )
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 04:08 asciilifeform: in other veryolds, 'you'll feel no dismay, watching your house burn, after you get to see how the bedbug dies!' (korean proverb)
BingoBoingo: Eh, don't worry for the museum. Let it get some history of its own.
asciilifeform: sorta late to 'worry', current v of euro civ was spiffy and chromed, then wrapped around a telephone pole and repaired with junkyard parts no less than twice, stayed on the road for astonishingly long time, before bumpers , floor, coming off
mircea_popescu: turns out that http://trilema.com/2016/consumerism-is-not-the-answer-though-it-will-put-you-to-sleep-or-american-history-x/#footnote_4_65947 was pretty fucking prophetic
mircea_popescu: the german democratic republic is getting itself a new people, the old one disappointed.
mircea_popescu: aaand brecht can go hang out with the tulpas and just want to there in peace. win-win.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/australia-ramps-up-flight-security-theater-with-powder-restrictions/ << Qntra - Australia Ramps Up Flight Security Theater With Powder Restrictions
asciilifeform: the picture, at least from my perch, doesn't match 'mongols come and the folx on the ramparts pretend not to notice and play cards' model; eurorasts organized, deliberately bring in the boats. what's the logic there ?
mircea_popescu: hey, chicks been slipping themselves mickeys in bars for decades. if it dun get up you get on your knees and suck on it, what can you do ?
mircea_popescu: what's needed's what's needed and what's done'd better fucking match up!
mircea_popescu: but yes, this objection is quite as strong as the "why trhe fuck did they need 60+ eyars to do it". i fully expect the "rape and slaughter of europe" to disappoint the eager victims. more of a fart than a raging hard-on, in any sense.
mircea_popescu: just think, there's in excess of 200mn cunts that desperately want and utterly need http://trilema.com/2017/mom/ ; who's gonna do it to them, the fiddy arab youths a day ? have you seen any of these malnourished shitheads in your life ? a hearthy sneeze might blow 'em down.
asciilifeform: the 'mongols' also 'aint waht they used to be', can you picture tamerlane sitting in 'refugee camp' and filing lawsuits re the welfarola cheques bouncing ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829650 << i don't recall where this was discussed. was it ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:02 ben_vulpes: heh, last time i took a crack at *that* i got mired in finding unspent outputs with trb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in so many words, nope.
mircea_popescu: though, amusingly, tamerlane did tax ~the same amt as these guys do.
asciilifeform: seems like what they need is a martian invasion, or sumthing.
mircea_popescu: i don't recall exactly figures etc, but the 0.1% republican tax is rather inspired by the mongol approach to government
asciilifeform: this was variously reviewed in mircea_popescu's essays, summing up to 'modern folx can barely be arsed to do anyffing at all, not even rape & pillage, it aint easy to make'em get out of bed'
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 05:03 ben_vulpes: on an eeeentiiiiirely different topic, it took months but i recently got the part of my output indexer that excises spent outputs from the index map to compile, which i believe brings the indexer part of this foray to completion. i invite any who'd like to read and comment to download the (unsigned!) vpatch from here cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this is different from "i got mired in finding unspent outputs" ?
mircea_popescu: sounds more like "i conquered finding unspent outputs" ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829660 << you could just add the manifest in a patch, like diana_coman did for eucrypt.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:13 trinque: so if there's a hero around that wants to take that on, we can start getting trb patches out the door again.
mircea_popescu: much better than having to resolve the "is it same trb" problem. what's the drawback ?
asciilifeform: the 'is it same trb' is much smaller problem than it seems, is quite resolvable mechanically ( as demonstrated in my http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html experiment , for instance )
ben_vulpes: well now i have to look into this and figure out what drives the memory of getting stuck. very foggy memories suggest it was the pruning of spent outputs i was unsure of.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829669 << if they don't like it, they can make own / maintain yours / etcetera. there's no requirement they use that one.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:21 mod6: the "latest client" linked in the article: http://blog.esthlos.com/esthlos-v-genesis-or-who-presses-the-pressor/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd still do the "ablation of 2011-2017" later tbh.
trinque: if the question was why I linked that one, aside personal preferences, I recall there being some bug in the perl one, which wasn't in the lisp one.
mircea_popescu: the "multiple implementation" thing hasn't changed, just because there's a candidate reference one tbh.
trinque: the luxury of specified items, that there can be several
mircea_popescu: trinque as i recall mod6 had had enough of maintaining his ; but this doesn't mean his work to date vanished, any noob/other person at any point hindered by the lisp v can pick up mod6's and maintain it
mircea_popescu: or write a new one. or anything.
mircea_popescu: iirc the big item was a reimplemented toposort.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho 'ablations' where you can pin down the continuity with e.g. 5line of perlade , aren't much of a problem
asciilifeform: ( granted , still not a thing that ought to be done 'every morning before breakfast' but not apocalyptic headache , is the idea )
mircea_popescu: not much of a technical problem, perhaps, but there really is no rush with that particular thing.
mircea_popescu is not proposing apocalyptic by any means, not at all.
asciilifeform at one time was quite invested in the notion of 'v format static 4evah' but mircea_popescu convincingly demonstrated that this is dumb
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829682 << i don't get it, you can't add new files for some reason ? this wasn't my impression ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:26 trinque: ben_vulpes: because the manifest has no antecedent, and you're gonna have to go graffiti other files like an idiot
trinque: no, because the dependency graph is denoted through files, and not concepts
asciilifeform: relatedly , some post-sov orcistans ( e.g. kazakh ) are toying with switching alphabets, will be interesting to see how that goes
mircea_popescu: it's not being proposed as a retoactive fix. the idea is, ~after~ the patch that puts in a manifest, ~subsequent~ patches will be well ordered. and the fact that the earlier ones aren't exactly well ordered is a) resolved in any practical sense by the fact that you won't have patch imports across the barrier more than 1 deep (ie, once a patch after the manifest patch references a patch before the manifest patch, THAT refernec
mircea_popescu: ed patch is now also well ordered, "caught in the patchchain" as it were) and b) we can and very likely will re-organize the portion between genesis and the manifest patch later anyway.
trinque: cannot add a new, standalone file, without editing something that existed previously
mircea_popescu: trinque i can't imagine why not ?! what am i missing here ?
trinque: how's the patch look, that adds the new file?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the classical v, you gotta touch the old filez to weld your new patch onto the ancestor-tree that you want
mircea_popescu: like a genesis, basically.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but you don't care.
mircea_popescu: let people ~adding later patches~ reference it as such.
trinque: yes, they have to reference it to bring it into the flow
trinque: with the graffiti
mircea_popescu: let me model this explicitly, see what's going on.
asciilifeform: i think trinque's observation is re how to glue the ~old~ tree on, in the first manifest-bearing patch
trinque: aha, once there's a manifest, all's fine.
mircea_popescu: 1. you sign a new patch, manifest.patch. at this juncture, phf's viewer will show it to the side, unconnected to the tree.
mircea_popescu: 2. you sign another new patch, later on, "fixing-bugzappers.patch". this patch references manifest patch and ircbot-multichan-etc.
asciilifeform: aa , clever, no glue
mircea_popescu: 3. you sign yet another new patch, hurr-biff.patch, referencing fixing-bugzappers.
mircea_popescu: yes ?
mircea_popescu: if you find the manifest patrch is useful (as you do), YOU INCLUDE IT.
mircea_popescu: but if you do not include it, it's not there.
mircea_popescu: this is the core of V, yes ?
trinque: eh that accretion of patch material means patch size/readability is inversely proportional to modularity of the code
asciilifeform: this worx; and when in 500yrs the republic schisms into west rome and east derpinople , they can have parallel manifests, etc, lol
mircea_popescu: trinque which is why the regrind mechanism even exists
mircea_popescu: once it becomes a pita regrind.
mircea_popescu: but ~once~, not for lack of activity.
asciilifeform: aha, recall the 'omfg flow graph is O(N^2)' thread
mircea_popescu: oh, i do.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's answer , was , 'if the N is big enuff to be problem, yer civilization is due for a reformat' )
trinque: what's meant by "include it" here
ben_vulpes: reference the manifest file in a later patch.
trinque: yes, show me
trinque: what's it look like in the patch file
ben_vulpes: manifest.txt $hash_prev $hash_curr ?
mircea_popescu: - A591AF341FF436F6A3391AA5163F6BC366358B719427154F88815D87213798C92EAE4923E6BE147B92C04562619564D7A64AD9AC51CA08E5165B0B4B3DA9813A
mircea_popescu: + 6ED286AA5D94E22E9087ABB55E14F7BB7EB0B098E490B0D4D6B6118BB72665C220910D24F957AC0E096A035E59A5BA3BB81AB63552010727D40AC7B8B4A2D8BB
ben_vulpes: right that
ben_vulpes: and not "reference" but "edit"
trinque: mk. I said "edit" above
trinque: anyhow, if we're talking about how to use the manifest, got it.
trinque: I was discussing how the manifest gets welded on, if welding on
mircea_popescu: through usage, basically. you see a problem with that ?
ben_vulpes: add a new file for the manifest, create a vpatch, any subsequent vpatches that don't also edit manifest must be reground into mainline.
ben_vulpes: no graffiti even necessary.
mircea_popescu: and gives a cheap "experimental tree" device.
mircea_popescu: supplanting ye olde "use special signatures", which i gather was bulky
trinque: right, subsequent usage pulls it in.
trinque: wont be able to press a "makefiles" + manifest until that subsequent patch, but I don't really see a problem with that
trinque: I brought up the graffiti because that'd be (and has historically been, before manifest) the way to attach the graph
mircea_popescu: in other events : a new resource type just got discovered in eulora
mircea_popescu: it's a cr50!
asciilifeform: what's it do ?
mircea_popescu: not even kidding (and only took like 3+years to find)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so far, nobody knows.
diana_coman: aha, I guess now I have to post a screenshot with alf-dedication :P
asciilifeform: it oughta ask player for a magic # , and detonate after 5 unsuccessful tries
mircea_popescu: lol word.
mircea_popescu: ON BOTH SCORES
diana_coman: ahaha, that doesn't even sound *that* bad
asciilifeform: character should also age by 3 weeks on each shot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in further lulz : it's classified under... LUMBER
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829714 << this is a significant gain, in that it reduces the need for elaborate toposorting. first, check the manifest chain.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:45 phf: trinque: one reason i didn't include patch name in the manifest is because patch name becomes a promise, unless you enforce it by tooling. i didn't want to go that way, but since current standard manifest does include patch name, than perhaps V ought to check the manifest against the patchset. relatedly fully manifest-based v doesn't even need graph tooling, can presumably press according to manifest's chain.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829715 << nah, trb is the bulkiest and most dangerous item on the table, it utterly can't be the exemplar at this early stage.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 17:45 trinque: could say we want trb to be exemplar of "how to V", in which case yeah, regrind it all
mircea_popescu: basically, we just introduced the possibility of "light nodes" :D
mircea_popescu: or w/e they called the pseudonodes, i forget.
asciilifeform: not really analogues, afaik in the contemplated new v you still need the history, to press
asciilifeform: 'light node' would be if patches were somehow self-contained with whole hog
mircea_popescu: point being, "blind" v could exist that just puts in the patches as seen in manifest, checks no sigs.
asciilifeform: it was possible even in orig v, asciilifeform's orig v99 even had a sadmode flag to trigger it
asciilifeform: ( why? because asciilifeform doesn't like to crypto in any form, even as toy, on boxes without rng, and some of his trb dev machines at the time had none )
asciilifeform: arguably this kind of thing doesn't belong at all in a production vtron, it is uncomfortably close to the proverbial 'null cipher flag'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: fwiw i had it mark all patches with 'WILD' alarm string when operating gpgless
asciilifeform: ( iirc! asciilifeform prolly oughta reread his orig coad, actually been wrong before re the mechanisms ! )
asciilifeform: 'note: this pistol is in firing-backwards mode'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: almost entirely unrelatedly, didja ever have a 'iron wallets spec' article ? asciilifeform had a notion that there was one, and dug in the l0gz, found ~0
asciilifeform: all i found were threads re various sad heathen wallets
mircea_popescu: i recall a very early item, i don't expect much value buried there but lessee
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't mean http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/ do you ?
asciilifeform: that was the closest item i found yea
asciilifeform: but nuffin specifically re iron
mircea_popescu: from ~the same period. but yes, there was some discussion, hm
mircea_popescu: you know what, thios might've been private discussions in nsa boardroom during early cardano mockups etc ?
asciilifeform: i regularly return , on chalkboard, to the subj, but on last visit to it realized that i'm something like a nonviolinist designing violin
asciilifeform: ideally it'd be a mircea_popescu spec.
mircea_popescu: problem is my thinking moved away from "hardware wallet" because, honestly, what's needed is a hardware computer.
mircea_popescu: am i going to have no rng in this wallet ? how make change address then ?
mircea_popescu: am i going to have rng ? how small can it then be ? if not small, and rng, why is it not using a proper terminal ?
mircea_popescu: if using proper terminal why is it not rsatron ?
asciilifeform: conceivably rng is separable, can simply be rs232 jack in which e.g. FG goes.
mircea_popescu: fg is large enough to make this "hardware wallet" not a credit card.
mircea_popescu: there's no half inch dolphin either, and for a reason as well.
asciilifeform: nothing of any import will ever be 'credit card' form factor, go an audit the whatever-nm chip
asciilifeform: more likely is briefcase.
mircea_popescu: and if you're making your dolphin 100kgs, why are you making it a sea anemone, could just as well make it dolphin.
asciilifeform: the only reason is that wallet dun need the same horsepower as 'general' comp, can be 8bit cpu etc
mircea_popescu: last fucking thing i need is a pile of briefcases, each painted red, and labeled. "this one -- does hashing."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but what it needs dun matter; thing is... what do you need ?
asciilifeform: errybody already suffers the pile of briefcases. what i'd like is one that does walleting well.
asciilifeform: 'well' includes, e.g., 'no c'
asciilifeform: '0 opensores legacycrapola in the mix' and so forth.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, why am i even having "a wallet", as opposed to say a rsa'd privkey list.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, that's what you told them to make the wallet, and they did, back in 2012 or w/e"
asciilifeform: well, trad bitcoin dun rsa
mircea_popescu: reheheheally ?! look at that damned thing sometime. it's encrypted like i'm gay.
asciilifeform: there's no rsa in trb
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm for the historically minded.
deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/06/26/euloras-own-cr50/ << Ossasepia - Euloras Own CR50
asciilifeform: lol diana_coman neato
diana_coman: asciilifeform, cheers! and updated with floating image because that screenshot was lousy beyond belief
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829932 << was contemplating 'wallet' in the sense of 'iron which actually signs', rather than mere bottle for keyz that get copied elsewhere to be arithmetized over
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 20:27 mircea_popescu: come to think of it, why am i even having "a wallet", as opposed to say a rsa'd privkey list.
asciilifeform: ( the latter is quite useless heathen bauble )
mircea_popescu: but my point is -- by the time this iron actually signs, this iron actually also manages signatures, and therefore this iron actually is a rsatron.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the "how to cut" piece is the controlling element here, because i don't even recall if we came up wioth a definitive answer.
asciilifeform: i'm partial to the cut where the signing device only needs a few kb of storage. ( no. 1 in mircea_popescu's taxonomy )
mircea_popescu: kiyleeslut rittle led tab on the right of this one
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally!
mircea_popescu: s.mg would be amenable to a deal whereby s.nsa puts a custom built npc in eulora and handles exchanges of euloran microchips for its own products (atm, fg)
mircea_popescu: something like that interesting to nsa ?
mircea_popescu: o brother.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sounds like spiffy idea. ( all we'd need, is to restock, currently we're all sold )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we'll also need a little bit of code to handle it and i guess a special dolly yes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right. ( keep in mind, currently asciilifeform knows very little re subj, aside from diana_coman's mpi works )
mircea_popescu: so here's some wonderment for today : random fetlife slut follows a webirc link (doh, what, irc exists ?!?!?!) and ends up here, at 14:58. sits here quietly, and patiently, until at 15:05 i say something. that's SEVEN WHOLE MINUTES. this alone, you know ? and then, puts another FOUR solid minutes in wtfing this thing, so that at 15:09 she can <kiyleeslut> Found it :).
mircea_popescu: so this is going pretty good so far, yes ?
mircea_popescu: ~at which point~ the whole flood starts. not earlier, or anything.
mircea_popescu: how, just HOW did this entire tower of chair work out to the maximal annoyance point ? absolutely NOTHING the esltards do is nearly this good at any purpose they ever declare.
asciilifeform: logging in from ipnoje ~guarantees this
mircea_popescu: somehow some idiots produced "smartphones" for which some other idiots "wrote software" which other idiots are using, and the end delivery is THIS
asciilifeform: it's rather unfortunate, possibly, that the www gate even works on ipnoje
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but my question is, HOW ? the iphone is not as watertight, not as long-lived, not as bright, colorful, not as ANYTHING as it is fucking annoying.
asciilifeform: hey if it were 1994 they'd be logging in from aol and getting modem hangup and betcha similar picture.
mircea_popescu: ten thousand people managed to coordinate to produce something that's 40% blue and 85% interesting and 62% warm and 92% square and 100.00% FUCKING ANNOYING.
mircea_popescu: how is this outcome even possible.
asciilifeform: pleeb net pipes are optimized , if for anyffing, for burst throughput , not uptime
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform precisely. how the fuck is this possible, if they worked at winning a war they'd lose, but when they don't work at sticking in my craw they manage.
hanbot: mircea_popescu by design apple exists to try and make you use its thing, whether it's some itam or some os or some cable, and it'll make things maximally unpleasant for anyone not on the bandwagon, at any point where the nonapple and the apple touch.
mircea_popescu: but how can they be this good at that ?
mircea_popescu: they're not nearly as good at anything else.
mircea_popescu: besides, i betcha she's on some droid thing, rather than apple specifically.
mircea_popescu: iphone os 11_3 ok, you got it, crapple.
trinque: thing's meant to train neuroses into the user, and amplifies them. neurotic brain's output is pretty damned annoying.
trinque: she probably twitched away to some red dot, had to go get the food pellet
mircea_popescu: once my seething rage piped down it occured to me that "dood, what you're almost entirely about is a rejection of the lamenormal. why are you wondering that consummate normalcy gets you pissed off and why are you surprised it produces itself ?!"
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: can you buy amazon gift cards for cash in uruguay?
mod6 does the head drop
ben_vulpes: https://www.behance.net/gallery/66684621/Ural-Amazon << perhaps a candidate for mircea_popescu 's artist hunt
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: possibly stupid notion i had last night i'd like to float for your cfo-ly advice: with the exchange rate in the shitter, and the clear and present demand for fiat-denominated assets, how bad of an idea would it be to sell usd-denominated bonds? mod6 and asciilifeform thoughts also pls
Mocky: Lumber? those things must have been shat out of a wood chipper >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829882
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 19:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in further lulz : it's classified under... LUMBER
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: can you buy amazon gift cards for cash in uruguay? << I can look. Since people tend to do Amazon through intermediaries here I don't suspect there's much of a market for the gift cards.
BingoBoingo: Amazon only recently came to have an official though limited presence in Argentina
ben_vulpes: amusing, because they handle the intermediation themselves now
BingoBoingo: This isn't the US, latinos travel.
BingoBoingo: Usually to other latino places or Miami, but still they do it
BingoBoingo: That or they are abjectly poor
BingoBoingo: But will investigate
BingoBoingo: In other almost news there's now a WPA 3 standard for wifi crypto. "enterprise" version features "strong" 192 bit crypto
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as i understand, we're a ~bitcoin~ isp, not a usd isp...
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: and this absolves of the need to hedge?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 21:37 mircea_popescu: what, and turn it into a financial speculator ? usually firms go that way after making so much revenue they run out of capital goods they might buy
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829972 << pnojeism is a much larger problem than merely crapple, and is really an entire constellation of dysfunctions enabled not by the turdalicious gadgets themselves but, as iirc mircea_popescu pointed out repeatedly, by issuing pseudo-comps to folx who ought to be operating plows and oxcarts fulltime
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 21:21 mircea_popescu: besides, i betcha she's on some droid thing, rather than apple specifically.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 21:43 mircea_popescu: a more even split makes the "solar winds" 0-delta.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'll be the 1st to point out that this puzzler is out of asciilifeform's depth, lessee what mircea_popescu thinks
ben_vulpes: if a 'javier' name shows up and my attention is elsewhere, someone please up the fellow, i'd like to build bridges out of lbtc and he might be one
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/26/and-then-there-was-light/ << Bingo Blog - And Then There Was Light
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you mean, besides it being illegal ?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in the ongoin glulz, Biology-Babe 19F sub "I may be submissive by kink, but I am an strong independent women." LordMPofTMSR "Everyone thinks so." Biology-Babe "Jesus Christ. Fucking respect me you misogynistic douche" LordMPofTMSR "Nah."
ben_vulpes: illegal per usg "accredited investors" circus?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 02:26 mod6: thanks for the script mircea_popescu!
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well yes, you happen be raising children in a jurisdiction which has decided "issue fiat bonds" is a crown monolpoly.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: probably the jooblocker
mircea_popescu: i mean, i could also start a medicine w/o a license sideline for the same money.
mircea_popescu: oh oh right.
mircea_popescu: (contrary to common sense, these are pestilentially common in the us)
asciilifeform: !#s fix-a-flat lipo
mircea_popescu: is this the "industrial silocone butt injection" ?
asciilifeform: regular, if modest in scale, corpse generator in this here monkeystan
asciilifeform assumed that ben_vulpes simply duncare re moving up in the gassing queue
ben_vulpes: there is the "convertible note", which is how the shartupists do a similar thing.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the 'shartupists' are agents of usg crown in good standing.
ben_vulpes: if mircea_popescu would spare a lecture on the notion, ex the usg gassing constraint, i would read intently.
mircea_popescu: huh ?
ben_vulpes: nevermind, i'll just read my kindleberger instead
mircea_popescu: does the thing have salespeople / funnel up yet ?
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo and lobbes have been working the hosting forums, i don't know what 'funnel' to put together other than get folks to sign into the #pizarro chat room and get them accounts
mircea_popescu: traditionally there's a landing page involved.
mircea_popescu: a/b testing, a whole spiel.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo has made http://pizarroisp.net/shared-hosting/ and finessed the copy on the rest of the site; isn't a/b testing on landing pages what you do after putting cash down on a CPM/CPC/CPA program?
mircea_popescu: well, after having some sort of flow large enough to be statistically meaningful, yes.
ben_vulpes: and with clickbank not touching btc, 'a(nonymous)-ads' out for not being in the wot all these years, i'm back to the drawing board on where to buy ads/how to drive traffic
mircea_popescu: so is the idea your contribution sums up to "i don't know how to organize sales and why don't we do more fiat things" ?
mircea_popescu: there's about 500 billion fiat-like isps. you can probably buy euro-denominated bonds fron hetzner or ovh or w/e as it is.
mircea_popescu: and they also implement the latest european commision directive or w/e they call the bullshit in-game.
ben_vulpes: i definitely don't know how to organize or drive sales, doing what i see needs doing, and what gets suggested to me, and float my own (bad) ideas. i'm in no way attached to "fiat things". because the exchange rate is eroding capitalization so brutally i thought it worthwhile to take another one on the chin in case this particular bad idea had some flake of merit in it.
mircea_popescu: yeah, the downmovement caught you overcapitalized/underequipped did it.
mircea_popescu: fortunately, it was yet small.
ben_vulpes: betting that the bill for the rockchip plant is going to hurt by the same token
ben_vulpes: !!up mobile436523 hola
deedbot: mobile436523 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: what can you do.
ben_vulpes: during the day: sweat! during the night: sweat! but also stare at the ceiling
mircea_popescu: at least you get to come.