trinque: it's been ten years since I cracked Kundera, couldn't say whether he intended said depiction, or it's just my own digestive process that says so
trinque: (and also, what destroyed structure of authority, you pussies http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1641162 )
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 23:02 phf: asciilifeform: true king is a later invention, actual process is "choose king amongst yourself", and failure to do so is stupidity
danielpbarron: yeah i liked the movie
ben_vulpes: esthlos: it is very useful to leave them around; the kb wasted in /tmp are negligible and useful in edge case failures
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: a correctly-written adult vtron should NEVER fail during press
asciilifeform: short of a dying hdd
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-16#798008 lulz : http://efail.de >> '... abuse vulnerabilities in the specification of OpenPGP and S/MIME to exfiltrate the plaintex...'
a111: Logged on 2014-08-16 02:27 mircea_popescu: by now i can sorta distinguish the noobs from the veterans because the noobs send me gpg blobs with "Content-Type: multipart/mixed;" mixed in, whereas the veterans just neatly paste the pgp in the email body.
asciilifeform: ^ pretty lulzy prehistory -- usg is burning the vuln in the most traditional way, complete with 'responsible disclosure'ism and a boeck-style 'researcher' ; nao spinning in every propaganda organ in unison as 'pgp broken!'
BingoBoingo: AHA, I was just getting ready to write up "Vulnerability In Common Email Client Handling Of Decrypted Plaintext"
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Do you want it instead?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: naa write
asciilifeform: interesting lulgem from the paper, 'An email client receiving a PGP-signed message may try to automatically download the corresponding public key.' << i never used 'pgp for lusers' emailtrons and had nfi. would explain one obvious modality for the 'mirrorolade' item
BingoBoingo: Today is shapping up to be a heavy lulz day in the early going between Italy and Iraqi politics
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Mirrolade, etc and other lulz are kinda why I would like to see the asciilifeform take on this one
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: asciilifeform's take, is already in the log, above.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/smime-and-poor-openpgp-email-client-behavior-leak-plaintext/ << Qntra - S/MIME And Poor OpenPGP Email Client Behavior Leak Plaintext
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ^ pretty lulzy prehistory -- usg is burning the vuln in the most traditional way, complete with 'responsible disclosure'ism and a boeck-style 'researcher' ; nao spinning in every propaganda organ in unison as 'pgp broken!' << Apparently @hanno has a take on this too that sums to the rest of the party line "who could be using this with hygeine?"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: paste ? ( i can't be arsed to read the d00d's www )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform It's a single tweet: @hanno 'Saying "our protocol and API is fine, it's just that everyone uses it wrong" is not a particularly good defense #efail #gpg'
asciilifeform: the footnotes of the 'paper', also lulzy, full of marlinspike, boeck, etc. 'why pgp is dead' articles
BingoBoingo: Take heart, this is not the only mega-lol in today's magazine
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/iraq-election-muqtada-al-sadr-getting-the-win/ << Qntra - Iraq Election: Muqtada al-Sadr Getting The Win
BingoBoingo: ^ Anyone else remember when this guy was evening news material?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: most famous from the saddam h hanging tape, where the crowd chanted his name
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/italian-election-five-star-and-the-league-nearing-coalition-deal/ << Qntra - Italian Election: Five Star And The League Nearing Coalition Deal
mod6: mornin' TMSR~
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
BingoBoingo: mornin mod6
mod6: how's everyone doin today?
BingoBoingo: Still alive
mod6: Glad to hear you're feeling better.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813128 << milan kundera isn't the end-all be-all of anything. however, he is a representative of a milieu (by which we mean, historical context + group construction, ie wot+varietyspeak+etc) and can't be meaningfully approached (which means, dismissed, either) if one's not familiar. from adam michnik to http://trilema.com/2011/ahahahahahaaaaa/ http://trilema.com/2011/pauldimir-gosmaneanu/ et
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 03:54 trinque: danielpbarron: eh you know, I was going to call the book the (apparent) movie is based upon garbage, but gears began to turn, and if recollection serves, the thing's a passable depiction of what happens to meaning in the aftermath of destroyed structures of authority, a la mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: cetera etcetera, it's a whole pile there, with solidarnosc raisins in a light samizdat confit.
mircea_popescu: the so called "80s generation".
asciilifeform tried, but could not digest, allergic
mircea_popescu: in any case, it's what makes danielpbarron 's review thoroughly horrible : he tries to watch the already juiced matter (no, the film of the book wasn't very good, because americans) with completely ahistoric eyes, and wonders how they managed to die in car crash on those roads, you can barely go 35.
mircea_popescu: it's fucking true! the dirt roads of behind the iron curtain barely permitted 35. and yes, i miself survived a crash at twice the speed. so wtf were they thinking ?
mircea_popescu: EXCEPT, i survived it in a 90s mercedes, not in a 70s lada (this thing : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1808320 ), and moreover first responders were there in five minutes not in two hours and a half.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 19:15 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaactually, erry orc with a 'lada' or whatever ancient jalopy for which new parts cannot be had
mircea_popescu: which yes, very much kills, take the case of http://trilema.com/2014/the-disadvantages-of-living-among-idiots/
mircea_popescu: as a factual matter, driving casualties existed in the 80s among warsaw pact signatories ; and yes "speed unadjusted to driving conditions" was universally blamed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc good % of road casualties was pedestrian ( just as everywhere and even today )
mircea_popescu: well, good %, sure. not all, though.
asciilifeform: other nitpick, if the wheels on gravel can go 35 , and collision of oncoming -- sums
asciilifeform: so just as readily 2x.
mircea_popescu: it always sums, neh ? but i don't think anyone living today can imagine what, specifically, "jalopy" means. considering the ~author~ couldn't : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-31#1778955
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 17:21 asciilifeform: incidentally in what country are there cabs with back seat passenger arm rest ?
mircea_popescu: they were fucking tuna cans, what. you'd die in there at a light breeze exactly like steel helmeted ww1 monkeys.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, anyway, allergy is always unfortunate. for instance item such as http://trilema.com/2011/voi-ce-ati-facut-in-viata-asta-ba/#selection-37.0-41.102 can't possibly be comprehended without a comprehensive read of the fellow in question (emil cioran).
mircea_popescu: and since i;m doing this, http://trilema.com/2011/voi-ce-ati-facut-in-viata-asta-ba/#selection-45.99-49.7 is a learned reference, to "Am avut un copil si-o nevasta Acum o suta, o mie de ani
mircea_popescu: Auziti paianjeni ? Auziti sobolani ? Am avut un copil si-o nevasta." ie radu gyr, ie http://trilema.com/2010/poveste/
danielpbarron: should i not have made the review? not even watched the film?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, i can't see why not. you just shouldn't have expected to get all that much from it, which i don't gather you had expected. so no harm no foul.
mircea_popescu: on the contrary, it opened up an opportunity for the above discussion. or more in general : activity is never wasted, even if it rarely delivers what it seemed it will.
mircea_popescu: it certainly is the fundamental public purpose for the blog : it illuminates where the author is, currently, so the other can direct fire. (the private purpose is exactly the same : it illuminates where the author was at some arbitrarily selected point in the past, so the same author can, later in life, interact with more of himself than his memory provides).
mircea_popescu: (and yes, "the other" there is very much l'autre, from sartre to levinas)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm still waiting to run across the kundera, solzhenitsyn, or the like, whose work shows any symptoms of grasping that 1) 'free world' was a cheap scam 2) switching moscow whip for washington whip won't improve anything 3) the uppity orcs will lose whatever sovereignty, industrial civ level, etc. they have under sov colonization, when (2) happens , and remain sad and dependent
asciilifeform: see also:
asciilifeform: !#s drink bavarian
mircea_popescu: funny, it seems to me about half of them grasp, on some level. one in six or so even arguably states some variant. but then again i mostly read the french/ro/czech/jugo set rather than the russian/polish/whatever. there is some north/south division among the stalinvictims vaguely similar to the east/west division of zee franks.
mircea_popescu: note however that "moscow whip" is a very dubious item altogether, at least in the case of actually authoritarian regimes. ceausescu drove gorby mad with his "what apologize, you fucking apologize, fucker, i wasn't there."
asciilifeform: there's a common set of jokes from su, q: 'if only we let germany win, we'd be drinking bavarian! riding in mercedes!' a: '... yes, ride in mercedes. but -- as the leather seat.'
mircea_popescu: this is true, actually. generalplan ost was some choice rib of insanity re political sociobiology. they were gonna make a New Bavaria in odessa like "the englishers" had made New York in missisiauga
asciilifeform: it is not much of a mystery, what was planned there. complete with specific references to 'like the indians'
mircea_popescu: somehow "the poles are not the fucking sioux, nutmeg!" just didn't turn any wheels.
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's actually a lot of substance to the rooseveltian-socialist "the hitler-socialists were pretty divorced from reality" claims / agitprop. even if not usually the substance they'd like there to be.
asciilifeform: must note, that everybody who stands up and tries to build something, or colonize a continent, or do pretty much anything substantial, is 'rebelling against reality'. it only gets counted as 'eh, he went against The Way World Worx'(tm)(r) if he fails.
asciilifeform: if cards had fallen slightly differently -- then yes, poles == sioux.
mircea_popescu: this is not true, which is why boston is not darien. it's true that the original colony was eaten by wolves in both cases ; but one in 1600 and the other in 1800, see.
mircea_popescu: obviously "everyone was mentally inadherent to reality" -- but the first set produced the bible and the nth set were called john smith.
mircea_popescu: ahistorism is never a safe play.
mircea_popescu: and no, the poles were never going to be the sioux at any point past about 1100. the generalplan ost was late by about eight centuries -- and this is ENTIRELY unsuperable.
asciilifeform: imho to write off germany as 'obviously bit more than it could chew, on day 1' also ahistorical.
mircea_popescu: this was never the contention.
asciilifeform: ( it is pretty common sin among ru-speaking authors, incidentally, 'germany was doomed, should've known..' etc )
mircea_popescu: germany was doomed once it broke the pact. they didn't know ; neither did the russkies know (not even stalin, he just got lucky, but lucky with brown underwear). and the british self-importantly gave their ex-contender in the great race two weeks. but by the time they crossed the don, the germans were doomed.
mircea_popescu: (and about half the general staff knew or suspected as much, too)
asciilifeform: nitpick is re the 'know' .
asciilifeform does not disagree with the above sketch, and afaik it isn't particularly controversial
mircea_popescu: it's not so hard to take ammo production figures for 1940, multiply by 10k, divide by russian land surface and look at the figure.
mircea_popescu: "oh, so we basically got one infantry rifle bullet per sq km ? well..."
asciilifeform: of course , by this logic nobody would ever go to war, but would instead sit and comparatively count ammo...
mircea_popescu: hey, it was the history ever since.
mircea_popescu: well not everyone can count.
mircea_popescu: anyway, amusingly enough had the german strategy employed so far been employed consistently (ie, stopped at the don, offered the russians military help to go conquer china), we'd most likely be drinking bavarese altogether.
mircea_popescu: i doubt stalin actually wanted the ukraine. much better if hitler shoots them all.
mircea_popescu: in the end, this is the only military strategy that EVER worked ; it is how alexander conquered "the world" to the degree of having cesar weep on his tomb ; it's how the mongol horde worked, it's how the "shocking" ottoman empire worked, it's how war works when it does.
asciilifeform: i dun recall any cases of conqueror pausing mid-exterminatus and successfully offering alliance to 'sioux'
mircea_popescu: really ? how do you think sioux got horses and rifles ?
mircea_popescu: not like either grew in the bushes they picked.
mircea_popescu: hahahah. really ?
asciilifeform: actually. buncha 'first contact, and they have horses, but never saw english' on record.
mircea_popescu: i get it, jews are inadherent to history. nevertheless -- indians were part of "alliances" among western powers regularly.
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that many of these saw the english as 'yet another tribe' to make/break alliances with
mircea_popescu: you figure the average indian tribe was possessed enough to ~WASTE~ however many galon's worth of whiskey to get a rifle ? no way no how.
mircea_popescu: anyway, point being : the great push west was mostly done by indians themselves.
asciilifeform: no comment re 'average'. and it is not a mystery where their trajectory was after intro to whiskey.
mircea_popescu: by the time white settlers actually followed, 90% of the locals had been shot or displaced.
asciilifeform: this yes.
mircea_popescu: well this is what's said. take ukraina, but leave russians with the caucasus, and send them to wipe china.
mircea_popescu: they will -- because they know in 1940 if they don't they'll be sitting around in 1960 worrying china might come.
asciilifeform: but, observe, not as result of any unified front with english. ( not that such a thing can even be drawn in this picture, there was no unified 'indian nation' nor a stalin, to make any unified front with anyone. )
mircea_popescu: there actually was an indian stalin.
mircea_popescu: made massive trans-tribal alliances never before seen
mircea_popescu: (and no, the dream of "soviet integration" is moscow-only. the russians were tribes, with the georgians about as russian as the small rus')
asciilifeform: the german invasion -- integrated (most of them, the exceptions starred in stalin's deportation extravaganza post-war) once and for all.
mircea_popescu: yes, but only because foolishly crosssed the don. see ?
asciilifeform: there's a reason why may9 is ~the~ surviving national holiday in ru, and culturally the axis on which whole propeller turns.
mircea_popescu: "no mother, your son shouldn't die to rescrue the ukrs" very different ring to it.
asciilifeform: the creation of ~these~ ukrs is quite recent.
asciilifeform: and a major success for the beast.
mircea_popescu: really ? cuz i seem to recall a whole bunch of ukr ustasa groups.
asciilifeform: that's the interesting bit, stalin 1) ordered the continuing ukr brush war, hushed up 2) proclaimed blanket amnesty for surrendering rebels
asciilifeform: and hruschev even continued it.
mircea_popescu: but he only had the space to do this because hitler was fucking inept, put the hot iron to the wound for him.\
mircea_popescu: tis my argument.
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's an important point in stalin's life, and that is the war. he visibly matured from 1939 to 1943, 1942 even. three years, but he went from being 14 to being 25.
asciilifeform: not only stalin's.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813129 << in recent trilema terms one could say it captures the moment where patriarchy gave way to matriarchy in one man's mind and coincidentally at the same time in that man's country. this is not altogether a lossy summary, and it betrays literary value in the work.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 03:55 trinque: the narcissism of each character is cartoonish, but here we are amidst even more cartoonish pieces of shit claiming their bundle of infantile urges is an identity.
asciilifeform: the war was the formative event of su, taking it from a kind of zimbabwe to -- very briefly -- a serious business.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, indeed not. yes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813131 << in the specific case of czechoslovakia, they got wet because tanks in prague. now and again "science fiction" pops up containing gender-indeterminate species, which choose a gender by context, "with joe in the room i'm samantha the slut, but when moe's around i'm butch". this is EXACTLY how societies work, they are gendered by context, and sending a bunch of tanks can very well fli
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 04:03 trinque: (and also, what destroyed structure of authority, you pussies http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1641162 )
mircea_popescu: p a small thing.
mircea_popescu: venice, for instance, was nominally ended by napoleon, but it actually transformed beyond functionality once charles soldiers got the girls so fucking wet centuries prior.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813139 << pretty much all they're good for. honestly, if they discourage the few remainign morons from sending "pgp-encrypted" email like retards because "thunderbird" i'll be quite happy.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 13:30 asciilifeform: ^ pretty lulzy prehistory -- usg is burning the vuln in the most traditional way, complete with 'responsible disclosure'ism and a boeck-style 'researcher' ; nao spinning in every propaganda organ in unison as 'pgp broken!'
asciilifeform: i suspect the thrust is to 'discourage, and push to shitogram' or whatever the latest keybase is called
asciilifeform: plus a bonus helping of 'drown out trilema piece on shithubkeyz'
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, hygeine << hygiene
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, pretty lulzy in any case.
asciilifeform: rather. and not as if they weren't ~explicitly~ warned 5y ago.
a111: Logged on 2014-09-26 18:07 asciilifeform: 'to take but one simple example: suppose you thought of the new millennium when you wrote your application back in 1972 -- not only wouldn't you be invited to the party, those who knew you had done it right from the start and who probably laughed at you at the time would positively hate you now, and they sure as hell wouldn't tell people about you. and the more stupid they are, the more important it would be to
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813157 << funny how it's always the unmentionables that fuck the hilarity in the ass.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 14:46 BingoBoingo: ^ Anyone else remember when this guy was evening news material?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty fxd
a111: Logged on 2014-09-26 17:59 mircea_popescu: none of this "but mp, you never gave any proof". there's your motherfuc king proof now stfu and shine my boots.
mircea_popescu: lulzy huh.
mircea_popescu: anywya, i think ima reprint (and adnotate) the trinque -linked bolix discussion, because i fear it's so concise and the language so tense, nobody, including myself, will understand wtf was being said in a few more years.
mircea_popescu: i'm cutting it between http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1640940 and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641242 ; if anyone disagrees lemme know.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 21:11 phf: mcclim always reminds me of how rms was planning on competing with symbolics by reimplementing everything they had on top of gnu platform. that was the goal. only a handful people who actually worked with a genera realize how "special" the result of rms's work was.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 01:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's realy no more to it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: looks proper
BingoBoingo: No further information required: "Now, the Web Platform Incubator Community Group (WICG) at the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), has released details about a browser-specific API for standardizing picture-in-picture interactions that allow websites to open an external "floating video" popup outside the browser window itself. [...] Chrome and Safari have already shipped out the new Picture-in-Picture API."
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, BingoBoingo didja ever pick up that crate ?
asciilifeform: it's been sitting sadly for week+ nao
asciilifeform: imho this is a useful experiment and i'd like to see an output
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Wednesday morning I plan on heading to the airport. Was there any other paperwork besides the tracking page that might aid the cause of getting the package released?
asciilifeform: not afaik
asciilifeform: it has motherfucking PREPAID import tax
asciilifeform: which, like complete idiot, i assumed means that it will go to postbox like normal package in normal country
BingoBoingo: The papers where they asked you for the ID and such? Whose name was on the package as the recipient, etc...
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: yours
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how do you know that it is at the airport ?
BingoBoingo: Could you forward those messages to me somehow, because the tracking page only shows where the package has been.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i pasted whole thing here, it is in the log
asciilifeform: all of it
asciilifeform: ( there were no magic numbers or otherwise crate-specific info in any of the crapola )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: how do you know that it is at the airport ? << That's where Aduanas holds things.
asciilifeform: i have nfi, incidentally, how long they hold'em
asciilifeform: possibly it is even nao on its way to /dev/null
BingoBoingo: Aite, found the textpaste dump. Tomorrow when I have the cedula in hand, will scan. Reply to that message with the scans, we can see if it shows up Wednesday.
mircea_popescu: !!up FreeMASON
deedbot: FreeMASON voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: FreeMASON, i don't get pms, fyi.
mircea_popescu: it just tells me someone wants voice.
FreeMASON: read what i wrote
FreeMASON: in private msg
FreeMASON: then i leave
FreeMASON: read ?
mircea_popescu: also try to use one line per thought.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: http://aaronrogier.net/voy00.PDF.gpg << Send them this. Hopefully it saves a trip and get it here sooner.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aite, will send
asciilifeform also, ftr, doesn't see PM in real time ( they queue )
mircea_popescu: web-borne noobs have a lot of trouble mentally handling sanity, what can i say.
asciilifeform: bbbbut how couldja not take an interest in the SEEKRIT MASONIC magic offer!111
asciilifeform: some tresses need covering!
asciilifeform: !#seen covertress
a111: 2016-09-17 <covertress> lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, phf trinque BingoBoingo ^ lemme know if issues.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : "The PDP-6 (Programmed Data Processor-6) was a computer"
mircea_popescu: really bitch ? the data processor was a computer ? ZI SA MORI TU\
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: good thread, and notes, but the central q is still unresolved in my head -- argument is that 'they should have left mit and built the machine, in a garage, in zimbabwe ( so as to avoid paying license fee )' ? or 'should have built it without having ever been at mit' ? or which
asciilifeform: and if so, the folx in su who built lunar lander, also should have done it in a garage ? instead of with dirty ckkpss moneys ? or not ?
asciilifeform: because to asciilifeform , it seems that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-13#1813036 applies not merely to farming. but to ~everything~ sufficiently expensive.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-13 17:07 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-13#1812937 << farming is NOT AMENABLE to any other kind of farming. the pretense to "independent farmers" is how the pantsuit chicks got the less able men off the cattle growing, you understand. the notion of "independent farmer" is a hallucination exactly like the notion of "successful starlet", sold by the press of a commercial concern for a commercial interest. hollywood WANTED a bunch of gir
asciilifeform: by the time of the bolix escapades, it was a done deal, if you wanted to build heavy experimental gear with substantial upfront cost and no clear market prospect -- you went to a kolhoz (e.g. mit) and prayed that they'd take .
asciilifeform: there were no medici to go to, in 1974, no.
asciilifeform: and as for the set of 'lord kelvin' ('i was born into money AND i like to experiment') : was ~null set. at least as evidenced by the results.
asciilifeform: it is possible to build some things 'in spare time, out of belly button lint', e.g. 1970s microcomps. it was NOT possible to build lispm 'out of lint'.
asciilifeform: no more than lunar lander.
asciilifeform: the other nitpick is with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1640940 , but iirc i registered objection at the time ( 'gnu' was nowhere even in sight when the events in question took place, the mushroom's 'i will reimplement IT ALL!' was a flowered-up recollection of his employment at lmi, one of the 3 mit licensee corps )
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 21:11 phf: mcclim always reminds me of how rms was planning on competing with symbolics by reimplementing everything they had on top of gnu platform. that was the goal. only a handful people who actually worked with a genera realize how "special" the result of rms's work was.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-14#1813338 << neither of these. should have simply built, ignored the pantsuit wrangling altogether.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 22:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: good thread, and notes, but the central q is still unresolved in my head -- argument is that 'they should have left mit and built the machine, in a garage, in zimbabwe ( so as to avoid paying license fee )' ? or 'should have built it without having ever been at mit' ? or which
mircea_popescu: ignoring is ignoring, you understand, when you "retreat to garage" you aren't ignoring, you're alternatively validating.
asciilifeform: built ~out of what~ ?
asciilifeform: own arse ?
mircea_popescu: no, out of mit's gear.
asciilifeform: they did, neh
mircea_popescu: that is not the objection.
mircea_popescu: the objection is the other half.
mircea_popescu: out of mit's gear. NOT on mit's terms. use, you understand me ? use. like a thing.
mircea_popescu: not consider. use.
mircea_popescu: do you ask the banana how it wants to be eaten ?
mircea_popescu: do you eat bananas like a fucking orc, in "certain ways" that are "spiritual" according to the imaginary bananashamans ?
asciilifeform: these folx were playing by the 'free world'(tm)(r) rules, with the patent and copyright etc claptrap. so naturally 'by mit rules'
mircea_popescu: no "naturally" in perversity.
asciilifeform: i suppose they could have ran off to su and tried to persuade brezhnev to build a lispm ?
asciilifeform: my argument is that 'underground, out of old tires', yes you can build borz that way, but no not lispm.
mircea_popescu: nope. they could have simply ignored anything to do with the mit itself ; and then let the mit-tards figure out ON THEIR OWN TIME what's going on.
asciilifeform: for my edification, plz sketch this out ?
mircea_popescu: other than what we've been fucking doing ? sure, why the hell not. the people involved build the thing ; when mit said some things, they ignored them altogether. give me some examples of thins mit said and i could just ignore for your edification ?
mircea_popescu: otherwise, just rinse and repeat.
asciilifeform: ( every so often, you see zeks who 'i'ma build anyway'; recall recent case, john carmack, and his ocular thing. built company , popular gadget, then the patent trolls show up; now they own it. )
mircea_popescu: mit says minksy must use the color green. minsky ignored. mit spent 500 politruk-hours to discern whether he even did what they said or not ; came up with either of these. minsky still ignored.
asciilifeform: different when actual money on the table.
mircea_popescu: for random reasons mit decides minsky is no longer allowed in the building ; sussman gave him his key card.
mircea_popescu: they then decided sussman isn't welcome either ; eventually they had to make a new "lab", to alleviate both the problem of their pretense to sovereignity, and of the people not caring what they say
mircea_popescu: and so on. how long do i need to extend this before it catches ? ~~~NOTHING~~~ the monkeys say is interpreted. at all, in any way, to any degree, never.
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand, this is a 'here's a tank grenade, take some with you' argument. and perfectly valid.
mircea_popescu: doing "the opposite" or "moving to garage", or anything, ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that in any way is biased by the mit is no go.
mircea_popescu: you don't put an anti-prng in the fg. why should any of the ai people put an anti-mit or a f(mit) however defined in their behaviour ?
asciilifeform: not all nuisances go away when you close eyes and pretend they aren't there.
mircea_popescu: just. fucking. ignore. it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, so what can happen ?
mircea_popescu: ~existing~ things don't go away ; imaginary nuisances -- do go away.
mircea_popescu: and existence is predicated on intelligence, and mit never had one. it's just a humongous pile of printed dollars, the us-style equivalent of the chinese "sovereign funds".
mircea_popescu: that it has a "university" attached instead of a "temple" is irrelevant.
asciilifeform: i suppose if you're mircea_popescu , you can describe the problem of folx for whom bank acct being zeroed, blacklisting from employment, declared outlaw, as 'imaginary'.
asciilifeform: for people who aren't mircea_popescu -- these are very real problem.
mircea_popescu: except they're not problems in the way you describe them.
asciilifeform: hows that
mircea_popescu: what do you propose killed the recently discussed yehzov, his "incorrect actions at mit" ?
asciilifeform: fwiw i still have nfi precisely what killed yezhov.
asciilifeform: wish i knew
mircea_popescu: any zek can be fucked at any time ; you know this going in. attempting to ascribe fucking to activity, and especially to discrete activity items, is folly.
mircea_popescu: that minsky had or had not "his" "bank account" zeroed is ENTIRELY not related to minsky.
mircea_popescu: same is true for all the great heroes of socialism, whether they died in bed or in prison.
asciilifeform: this is a pretty odd, to put it softly, position, that , say, pugachev was dragged in a cage to the chopping block 'randomly' and 'anybody could have' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, same thing fucked yehzov as the ligthning fucked tree. what, you think the clouds aim ?!
asciilifeform: the clouds aim.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it is strictly my position ; the clouds don't fucking aim ; nor does, nor ~CAN~ socialism aim.
mircea_popescu: it's like thinking you were "targetted" for a street mugging. yes, you were, guess by what ? you were targetted as one of the schmucks who imagines they can be targetted by street muggings.
mircea_popescu: pugachev and zhukov, exactly same : RANDOMLY. and yes, any other one could have, these could not have, etcetera.
asciilifeform: lightning is not bad model -- strikes, typically, tallest.
asciilifeform: quite verily biased-random.
mircea_popescu: if you're willing to go with "typically", you're going to also say "clouds typically look like dragons"
asciilifeform: observed fact.
mircea_popescu: "typically tallest", "typically loneliest", typically whatever. sure, observed typicallies.
mircea_popescu: cancer also tends to strike typically healthy people, did you observe that ?
mircea_popescu: maybe a little bit o' the clap's the best thing for ye.
mircea_popescu: or maybe a coronary. even more "typically" protective, very few people with coronaries get cancer indeed!
asciilifeform: i think i get it, mircea_popescu is a zhukov-style 'mine field, what mine field, cowards, you have feet, nao move'em why dontcha' sort of commander.
mircea_popescu: mines objectively exist. mit does not.
asciilifeform: the armed evicters who show up when the rent check bounces, do exist, i've seen'em at work
asciilifeform: ditto the nice folx who remove unplugged zeks from the grocery etc. when it bounces there.
mircea_popescu: no relation between these items.
asciilifeform: see also mircea_popescu's observations re the aquarium. what, exactly, is aquarium fish to do, if he doesn't like the owner ?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile moving on : the malleus item linked has a "The source version of this text, with notes and additional material, can be found at MalleusMaleficarum.org [External Site]." except the "external site" doth not include such an item.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, mit is the owner of ~nothing.
asciilifeform at one time lived in a house with an aquarium; on several occasion the fish -- jumped out. perhaps this is it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the external site is a bag o'lulz, belongs to iirc some radical feminist types
asciilifeform: and i half-expected to find mircea_popescu quoting from sprenger's latin original
asciilifeform: ( it is pretty great b00k, all around, and quite 'liberal' even, contrary to what the derps in amerischool 'teach' about it -- forbade trials by ordeal, imposed procedure , proclaimed heretical some of the moar odd claims popular at the time re subj )
mircea_popescu: anyway, what i wanted to quote : "Qui credit, posse fieri aliquam creaturam, aut in melius deteriúsve transmutari, aut in aliam speciem vel similitudinem transformari, quàm abipso omnium Creatore, pagano et infideli deterior est."
mircea_popescu: approximately, "whosoever believes in self-improvement is worse than a pagan"
asciilifeform: exactly the 'more odd claims' i meant
asciilifeform: tho i read it as in application to 'they turn men into birds, and birds into men' etc
mircea_popescu: well, it generally rejects the possibility of change. very platonic.
mircea_popescu: thieves ~are~ thieves, there's no point in "re-education" jail etc.
mircea_popescu: very refreshingly medieval perspective. what's all this "i'm a producer" bs.
asciilifeform: standard civilized world pov, until quite recently
asciilifeform: кто ты по жизни etc
mircea_popescu: actually it even has a "zero one infinity" statement. "if demons could alter the world then what'd stop them at all"
mircea_popescu: !!up Bitcoin
deedbot: Bitcoin voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: repeatedly makes the point, yes
asciilifeform: 'if they could once, they could rm -rf / '
asciilifeform: pretty advanced, conceptually, text, working from clearly specified priors, a+++
mircea_popescu: not even a bad argument ; kinda example of why i occasionally say scholastics' not what moderntards make it seem.
asciilifeform thoroughly enjoyed the read
mircea_popescu: anyway, the english translation is terrible. consider :
mircea_popescu: (english) Moreover, every alteration that takes place in a human body - for example, a state of health or a state of sickness - can be brought down to a question of natural causes, as Aristotle has shown in his 7th book of Physics. And the greatest of these is the influence of the stars. But the devils cannot interfere with the stars. This is the opinion of Dionysius in his epistle to S. Polycarp. For this alone God can do. T
mircea_popescu: herefore it is evident the demons cannot actually effect any permanent transformation in human bodies; that is to say, no real metamorphosis. And so we must refer the appearance of any such change to some dark and occult cause.
asciilifeform: oh throw out the eng translation, lol
asciilifeform: ( the ru translation is pretty much 1:1, and prolly likewise the ro, and the contemporary de transl ditto )
mircea_popescu: (latin) Prætereà, omnis alteratio corporalis, puta circa infirmitates aut sanitates protreandas, reducitur in motum localem, patet ex 7.phys. Quovumcanque est motus c li. Sed Dæinones motu c ll variare non possunt, Dionysius in epis. ad Polycarpum. Quia hocsolius Dei est. Ergo videtur, quòd nusla mitrasmutationem ad minus veram, in corporib. causare possunt, quòd necesse sit homini transmut ationes in aliquã causam occ
mircea_popescu: ultam reducere.
mircea_popescu: now where the FUCK did they say the bit about the stars ?
mircea_popescu: "For devils have no power at all save by a certain subtle art. But an art cannot permanently produce a true form." aka "Item Dæmones non operantur nisi per artem. Sed ais non potest dare ver am formam."
mircea_popescu: subtle my fucking foot. the ~point~ is that art can not create new forms. which is why the fuck they even did the constant copying of masters to learn arts.
mircea_popescu: whole item is about as anti-modern as it gets.
asciilifeform: sorta the appeal, from my pov. countermodernity pr0n.
mircea_popescu: aand in today's olde trilema lulz, http://trilema.com/2011/exercitiu-practic-de-dileme-morale/
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/gay-bullshit-matador-laberinto-de-pasiones-ley-del-deseo/ << Trilema - Gay Bullshit : Matador, Laberinto de pasiones & Ley del deseo