elaineo: they don't need to teach their kids anything. systematically discern the essential from the unimportant. the whole master/slavegirl making silence thing
BingoBoingo: Capitalism is simple. Just focus on doing the next right thing and making the world a better place, for you.
mircea_popescu: elaineo this works well for adults. kids need to be fed.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, indian continent wolves adopting indian kids into their litters make excellent parents.
BingoBoingo: Excellent in comparison to the Bhararas
elaineo: never had to deal with kids. if the indian wolf-kids are happy, well...
mircea_popescu: if they're not happy, they'll bark their unhappiness to the stars above.
BingoBoingo: !!up TomServo
deedbot: TomServo voiced for 30 minutes.
TomServo: Greetings BingoBoingo
mircea_popescu: "If pet food companies used the same business model as startups: Jim creates a dog food factory and gives away dog food for free. 450 million dogs line up for free dog food. Purina Dog Chow understands that non-paying dog food consumers are currency, and buys Jims factory for $42 per dog." << in other historical elaineo lulz.
elaineo: those were the numbers from Facebook's acquisition of Whatsapp
mircea_popescu: i recall. was well received here too. somehow it's not money laudnering when the right idiots do it.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in historical elaineo terrible, "Uber is a great example of a hack: Taxicab licensing rules are annoying and only serve to make a few peoples lives better (the taxi medallion owners) while making many peoples lives worse. Waze allows drivers to report speed traps and police checkpoints because we all know that CHP officers only issue tickets to fill their quotas. Airbnb shirks rental and zoning regulations, an
mircea_popescu: d the world is arguably a better place for it."
mircea_popescu: dja think any of that is defensible ?
elaineo: the first two, yes. airbnb, no.
mircea_popescu: let's take the first one. why would $random city in $national country give up its taxi transportation system to the usg ?
elaineo: to ensure equal service to underserved minorities
mircea_popescu: so that self-important schmucks in washington can spy on foreign nationals daily, and now and again "sanction" foreign government with taxi strike generated in the usual manner ?
mircea_popescu: but what actually happens is that the blue state will tryt to get people who didn't vote for the pantsuited hilarity unable to use cabs.
mircea_popescu: in actual point of practice. no "underserved minority" is getting into the recent suv crossover.
elaineo: hold up - you are equating Uber with USG?
mircea_popescu: all "us registered corporations" are simply agencies of the usg.
mircea_popescu: "regulatory compliance" it's called in-universe. but in practice, they're exactly like the old time soviet govt entreprises.
elaineo: so there's no difference between us registered corporations and public transportation, within the US
mircea_popescu: there is, because publkic transport is mostly state, whereas uber is federal.
elaineo: Uber is not winning in foreign countries -- it already retreated from China & russia
mircea_popescu: and because there's specific laws protecting public interest from a time before the bush power grabs
mircea_popescu: it's not winning anywhere. the whole thing is a more-successful-than-usual spam&fraud campaign by graham and friends.
mircea_popescu: but it's entirely like groupon say.
elaineo: okay, i concede that uber, in its current state, is an agency of the usg and thus worse than state-owned public transport
elaineo: uber, in an earlier state, was localized and legitimately a private corp
mircea_popescu: well, i'ma opt out of arguing waze without prejudice, because while it's basically an antieconomic game of masturbation, i'm too lazy to argue it.
elaineo: ok. it's part of Google's surveillance arm now anyway
mircea_popescu: worthless anyway, anyway.
elaineo: airbnb is shit. it incentivized short-term rental housing at the loss of long-term rentals
elaineo: and thus exacerbated the housing crisis.
mircea_popescu: many ways to see how shitty it is. seriously, i want to change my fuckable 3years leases neighbour for a horde of unwashed 20something 2-week leasors ?
mircea_popescu: holy shit no.
mircea_popescu: last fucking thing i want is to have to argue at idiots about music being too loud each week and actually be confronted with literall different idiots with identical idiocy in them
elaineo: yeah, that too
mircea_popescu: for all the gargle, there's ~nothing came out of marc a & paul g's up and coming rap label firms.
elaineo: as a resident of the SF bay area, i appreciate all the VC-subsidized free shit
mircea_popescu: you're welcome, but do you happen to know what's the worst thing that can happen to a gifted woman early on in her life ?
elaineo: dunno. kids?
mircea_popescu: a bad source of revenue.
mircea_popescu: the original discussed "promising companies", but there's really no difference -- women are great company.
elaineo: sure, that makes sense
mod6: !~later tell jurov Sent SoBA email to btc-dev list, didn't bounce, maybe stuck in queue? Plz to take a look and see if it is just stuck. Thanks!
jhvh1: mod6: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: elaineo free shit is terrible, which is why wanna-be pimps hang around highschools trying to paw off "free shit" to the better looking 16yos.
elaineo: terrible in the sense of, "the first hit is free"?
mircea_popescu: also why aren't your footnotes clickable ? like eg in https://elaineou.com/2014/11/11/silicon-valley-is-the-new-fannie-mae/ i wanna click on that 1.
mircea_popescu: i won't even ask what do you think makes me gather the dork is having a great time from that pic.
elaineo: clickable-footnotes didn't occur to me until later on. even then, i'm kinda lazy.
mircea_popescu: ah. also, tooltipping footnotes are good.
elaineo: oh, right, i do like that about trilema
mircea_popescu: hey, i didn't realise azn immigrants are even allowed to be lazy
elaineo: we are, once we've left our parents' homes
mircea_popescu: ah. yea, makes sense.
elaineo: your slavegirls become a basketcase the moment you turn them loose
mircea_popescu: why, do 2nd gen azns ?
elaineo: yes, esp if they have parents who are doing well
mircea_popescu: well, truth be told, there's no official "turning loose" as such. girls can leave if they wanna, some do now and again, but it's not that common.
mircea_popescu: elaineo that's an tlp original.
elaineo: aren't all the posts original?
mircea_popescu: no, some are rewrites of other people's work, like say the disgrace series, or you know, http://trilema.com/2015/stop-all-the-clocks-again/ or http://trilema.com/2013/a-story-of-a-boy-and-a-tree/
mircea_popescu: others are adnotations, like the recent rothbard series for instance.
mircea_popescu: this one's of that latter kind. the footnotes are mine, but the text is originally published by ballas over at thelastpsychiatrist.com ; linked there in the first line.
elaineo: i have trouble following the, ehm, dialogue posts. eg http://trilema.com/2017/damele-dameleee/
mircea_popescu: not very good dialogue ?
elaineo: i have trouble relating to the context
mircea_popescu: one problem with trilema is that some articles (esp the lifestyle sort, for isntance) end up with a heavy load of private jokes. these aren't materia obscura a la http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-01#1719021 but actual "0 chances someone i'm not fucking gets this".
a111: Logged on 2017-10-01 03:49 elaineo: was anyone expected to understand that reference aside from yourself?
elaineo: yeah, i assumed that was the case
mircea_popescu: anyway, the context is the earlier rewrite of luminous, the sf story. you know it ?
elaineo: i do not
mircea_popescu: ah. well, article is http://trilema.com/2017/resplenduminous/ and original kindly provided by asciilifeform is http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/wpf7J/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2017-09-26 16:07 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/wpf7J/?raw=true << 313333337w4r3z
mircea_popescu: "I suppose I could pull up my Bloomberg terminal if I wanted to do some research before making an investment decision, but I feel like thats not in the spirit of this app." << A-HA! caught you elaineo !
mircea_popescu: https://elaineou.com/2014/12/03/amazon-the-worlds-biggest-startup/ << in historical lulz. kinda hard to believe they came up with that shit.
jurov: mod6: fixed
mod6: jurov: thanks!
mod6: Thanks for posting the Treasury statement as well.
mod6: Ladies and Gentlemen of TMSR~: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-October/000274.html
diana_coman: !!key asciilifeform
diana_coman: uhm, something wrong with deedbot re keys?
diana_coman: trinque ^
trinque: I'll take a look
trinque: I had to migrate everything to a new box, possible there are things that still need a poke.
trinque: datacenter got in my way when I was in the midst of setting up infrastructure for:
trinque: which incidentally is now out; I'll write it up shortly
diana_coman: kk, no rush
asciilifeform: ohai diana_coman
trinque: site generator ran as the wrong user, barfed out empty keyfiles
diana_coman: hi asciilifeform
trinque: shall be remedied shortly.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: and in your trb wot dir likewise.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, heh, thanks; ofc I have the keys otherwise - I was just getting trb on a new box and getting the keys for it via deedbot seemed most straightforward
diana_coman: anyways, it can wait until trinque fixes it, not a big thing
asciilifeform: and, for completeness, of course copy at... http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgfp/17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7
asciilifeform: ( dulap -- believe or not -- is still up... )
trinque: btw, anyone needing to run a deed today, just PM it to me. I'll be working on moving that to the new box this afternoon.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/09/27/lessons-from-hurricane-maria-and-puerto-rico/ << Bingo Blog - Lessons From Hurricane Maria And Puerto Rico
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/09/27/trump-teaches-gop-senators-importance-of-selling-by-example-learns-limits-of-his-brand/ << Bingo Blog - Trump Teaches GOP Senators Importance Of Selling By Example, Learns Limits Of His Brand
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/09/29/lesser-than-north-korea-joins-china-in-banning-ico-fad-ether-prices-drop-with-news/ << Bingo Blog - Lesser Than North Korea Joins China In Banning ICO Fad: Ether Prices Drop With News
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/now-you-understand-how-she-feels/ << Trilema - Now you understand how she feels.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-masters-textbook-why-do-girls-seek-you-out/ << Trilema - The Master's Textbook - Why do girls seek you out ?
trinque: ^ for some curious reason this thing's behaving strangely dropped on a bsd
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/09/29/trying-so-hard-to-be-soviet-and-failing/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Trying so hard to be Soviet, and failing.
davout: qntra is down just because it lacks a home?
a111: Logged on 2017-10-01 16:23 trinque: which incidentally is now out; I'll write it up shortly
mod6: ya, very cool trinque
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the titty ranch, http://68.media.tumblr.com/dc870678a61907d4f2b4f17250d29eb5/tumblr_nsfzwbHkVt1s2wsdzo1_400.gif
a111: Logged on 2017-10-01 16:34 asciilifeform: ( dulap -- believe or not -- is still up... )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-01#1719161 << yes. so would be phuctor, but in its strange wisdom teh empire decided to donate the hosting
a111: Logged on 2017-10-01 17:52 davout: qntra is down just because it lacks a home?
asciilifeform: now to be fair i have nfi what the billing cycle was, even
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's put it this way, i noticed http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-14#1714183 because i was going to pay them.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-14 03:42 mircea_popescu: in other lulz asciilifeform : phuctor server raid array failing, when'd you like the item restarted ?
asciilifeform: that was my guess
asciilifeform: there are some pretty demented folx in fiatoladom : at one time, some years ago, asciilifeform got year+ of phree service, for no reason, from a konsoomer 'last mile' isp
mircea_popescu: hey, i know a certain petro plant that got free gas for about 8 months.
asciilifeform: ukrs have been getting phreeeeee gas since 2014 or wat.
asciilifeform: so it isn't unheard of.
mircea_popescu: matter was still being litigated a decade afterwards.
asciilifeform: nao i'm curious - what was to litigate ? 'we sent you phreestuff for 8mo, now pay' 'buzz off' 'we sue' ?
mircea_popescu: or to put it in its canonical form, http://trilema.com/2013/our-emperor-deliver-us/#selection-39.331-39.449
mircea_popescu: "heavily counseled parties to mega-mergers do not breach merger agreements out of inadvertence, negligence, or mistake."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something like that.
mircea_popescu: hey, "capitalism", as understood and implemented by nitwits who can't answer questions.
mircea_popescu: and in other "we used to be cool"s, http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal01/2011/3/4/15/enhanced-buzz-14488-1299271596-9.jpg
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I'm currently looking at eulora rsa and I'm a bit foggy (I know and followed the bits posted in the logs but it's a long trail): what is available/ready to use atm?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ffa arithmetic stack is theoretically available. however until i have barrett reduction going, it's a ~30 second modular exponentiation ( i.e. per rsa op )
asciilifeform: i.e. per 4096-padding -bit payload
asciilifeform: and a ~week -long keygen.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-20 16:25 asciilifeform: in other noose, ACHTUNG, panzers, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/BAjEK/?raw=true << 27.2 sec (4096b modexp)
mircea_popescu: not actually usable for eulora as such, is it.
asciilifeform: certainly not as-is, no
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is a barrettian ( theoretically 1s/4096 ) rsatron, usable ?
asciilifeform: that's still quite slow vs. heathen rsa.
mircea_popescu: well, players are problematic. they might download the game and wait for a few hours to get a key going. then again they might not. nobody's waiting for a week tho, i don't expect.
asciilifeform: this is a fundamental headache, innit. 'wanna use actual rsa, or that thing you've been fraudulently introduced to as rsa, that leaks key, but runs fast'
mircea_popescu: in any case the problem is that i'll have to design some kind of extender, can't do pure rsa throughout because of the sheer load. there's multiple messages/sec
asciilifeform: fwiw it parallelizes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in any case the implementation will be isolated, so that one can swap his preferred item in.
asciilifeform does not know ~anything about how eulora goes together, cannot comment in detail
mircea_popescu: but basically, the only practical approach here is to actually import the gpg implementation, warts and all, but modularily, and see later maybe it can be swapped out.
asciilifeform: imho using a nonfixedtime rsatron in realtime, is worse than not using any crypto at all
asciilifeform: you will leak key.
mircea_popescu: since the client is intended to dissolve into competing community-driven implementations anyway, i don't expect to even be involved in weighing that maybe.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess we'll be having this problem demonstrated in practice. what can i do ?
asciilifeform: openssl already demonstrated quite satisfactorily.
asciilifeform: ( you can ~trivially extract most privkeys, if you spend a coupla months )
mircea_popescu: need was correctly identified year+ in advance ; the fact work is ongoing is no solace -- something must go in, and it will go in now.
mircea_popescu: the only item ready to go in is in fact koch's, and so he gets imported.
asciilifeform: if hiring fortune teller - hire cheapest. but ftr i dun get how this beats not having crypto.
mircea_popescu: at least it makes the community failure plain to the community.
mircea_popescu: i ~tried~ to have crypto.
mircea_popescu: what i got is what i got, and that's what the community in turn gets, and when it has a better idea -- implementation it is one comment out away.
asciilifeform continues the very slow and painful walk through most of undergrad number theory that leads, possibly, to usable nonleaking rsa on pc.
mircea_popescu: s.mg oif course assumes 0 liability to accounts lost through the process of leaking keys.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally fast ffalicious rsa on ~fpga~ is trivial. )
mircea_popescu: yeah but how't that work, i make a line speed fpga based encrypto/decryptor and use it as a router ?
asciilifeform: ( proper rsa is 'heavier' than most folx, incl. asciilifeform of a few yrs ago, appreciated. consider, ussr never was able to afford rsa at all. )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for instance.
asciilifeform: or, more simply, a rs232 thing, a la fg
asciilifeform: two arses
mircea_popescu: this is at best a year away.
mircea_popescu: and i don't want to bake things that've not even been tested as software.
asciilifeform: it wouldn't be in any sense a 'build' of ffa.
asciilifeform: rather, a standard, e.g., verilog mips, with the registers extended to 8192b.
mircea_popescu: i suppose that might work.
asciilifeform: but no, asciilifeform does not have one ready to run.
mircea_popescu: at least from a theoretical pov.
asciilifeform: how close this item is, even optimistically, depends on whether it could fit in ice40-8k.
asciilifeform: ( my current guess is that, sadly, it would not. would need a matrix of'em )
mircea_popescu: not likely fit no.
mircea_popescu: "matrix" ends up with what, intermatrix carry ?
asciilifeform: ideally not, you'd have bus, adder in 1 chip, shifter in other, etc
mircea_popescu: and bus made how ?
asciilifeform: but this is 'bridge too far' yet.
mircea_popescu: quite, yes.
asciilifeform: side q : for what does eulora even need crypto ? authentication - i can see, needs. but the movements of the players are theoretically public, neh?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, there is more info than just movements being passed between client and server
asciilifeform: ah hm, there's a chat, isnt there.
diana_coman: items in own inventory/storage are private for instance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ideally chat will move to irc altogether.
diana_coman: neah, not the chat really, though merchant works atm via cli/chat so there would be that presumably
mircea_popescu: for the historically inclined : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-06#1515745 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591437 are prolly the relevant anchors for this discussion.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 00:01 asciilifeform proposes to implement this subsystem for s.mg.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 22:14 mircea_popescu: course since the nsa consulting work for minigame is going to produce ada rsa, it might be an idea to have an ~ada~ tmsr crypto lib.
mircea_popescu: year+ turns out to be ~14 months.
diana_coman: fwiw I do see where asciilifeform is coming from and esp re leaking keys but at the same time can't stall eulora on this either, so some sort of thing will have to be cobbled together at best as it can be atm
mircea_popescu: and yes, rsa properly examined did turn out to be a lot more work, and a lot more stacked shit papered over in the imperial usage, than originally thought.
asciilifeform: i won't put my signature on a leaking rsatron. but i also grasp 'go to war with the shovel you have', we're for instance still using rotten ol' gpg.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/qntra-sqntr-september-2017-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) September 2017 Statement
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, rsa like...everything else you mean,right?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the item is currently plaintext ; i would like to have at least the forms of correctness.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman just about.
asciilifeform: ^ asciilifeform's very painstaking 'trbfication' of koch
mircea_popescu: oh ?
asciilifeform: this is circa 2015
diana_coman: asciilifeform, oh, I'll certainly read that
asciilifeform: trims down gpg into a quite small (relatively to original, not, e.g. ffa) c lib
mircea_popescu: does keygen encrypt decrypt ?
asciilifeform: ditches the asmolade, various redundancies, automakeisms
mircea_popescu: or just bignum ?
asciilifeform: just bignum. but if you add 20ln from rsa.c (in gpg 1.4 from mircea_popescu) in, it yes encrypts/keygens/etc
mircea_popescu: diana_coman looks like the place to drill yeah.
asciilifeform: !#s mpi
asciilifeform: ^ various threads re how and why asciilifeform did this
asciilifeform: see also the linked article, for pedantic list of what was cut and why.
asciilifeform: note that this is a traditional, kochian, leaking bignumatron.
asciilifeform: ( runs on normalized integers, ALL ops take variable time, etc )
diana_coman appreciates very well that part with "astonishingly painful to properly saw off the kochball" after this past year of sawing off ps shit
asciilifeform: diana_coman: my mpi builds on all platforms, but on crapple requires a 1ln fix in the make
asciilifeform: i'll dig it out, if you end up using this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly needed by people trying to compile mac client. not otherwise.
diana_coman: will let you know; in any case, crapple is not of much concern to s.mg ; players can crapple if they want to
asciilifeform: ( initially i was building for the mips cpu of the original protocardano, and hence EVERYTHING that could be thrown out --- was )
asciilifeform: nice thing, is that it dun need libs at all
asciilifeform: makes a static, dependencyless 'mpi.a' .
asciilifeform: which you then link against.
diana_coman: sounds good in this respect
asciilifeform: you will notice that koch's rng atrocity ain't in there.
asciilifeform: ( nor anything else, it's just the arithm. routines. )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: make sure you take the version marked 'update:'
asciilifeform: ('second cut')
diana_coman: will do
asciilifeform bbl : meat
mircea_popescu: and for the freenode curious, http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-10-01.log.html#t21:46:47
lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-10-01 21:46:47: <kline> sure
shinohai thinks it would be kinda neat to have a eulora cloak
mircea_popescu: a wouldja like one ?
shinohai: Perhaps will come to pass when the app gets submitted.
mircea_popescu: can't see why not.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at bubbling butt barn, http://68.media.tumblr.com/54bd9b6437ab46e8c3bcaf3860deda92/tumblr_nqmfwziN3J1r4faido1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in phuctor lulz, http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0E8509B69B30D833B7B8063E8F7B0BB9AEA36CD33C46FCA284A62A49E446BA8B << some monkey's pastiche, made of his (or some rando derp's) pub, an ostensible 'debian signing key', and asciilifeform's pub
asciilifeform: ( anybody can lift a modulus from one place, and drop it in another, so this kind of 'graffiti' is trivial )
asciilifeform: the funniest bit is that anybody who spends a few $10k to find sha1 collision, can take it one step further and make a valid subkey for asciilifeform's, or mircea_popescu's, etc. key
asciilifeform: which any gpg-compatible pgptron ever released, will accept as valid, its signatures - as genuine, etc.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason there's !!key etc.
asciilifeform: it ain't as if what comes down yer pipe from !!key , is itself signed..
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( dulap -- believe or not -- is still up... ) << Prolly because the haet speak on dulap doesn't look like itself to the uninitiated.
mircea_popescu: you think ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right, i'd love to see variant keys.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, both boxes on same hoster. One unplugged promptly, other curiously still connected despite overt raep overtures..
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 487879 | Current Difficulty: 1.123863285132E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 489887 | Next Difficulty In: 2008 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 37 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: In other media: Si Newhouse (Conde Nast) dead, finally
BingoBoingo: Allegedly his brother Donald still lives for some definition of living
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4370.02, vol: 7410.83687857 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4417.0, vol: 27771.91218176 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4229.3316, vol: 0 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4397.0, vol: 2729.09851003 | Volume-weighted last average: 4406.37685413
trinque: I'm over here working on the thing
trinque: it'll respond when I fire it back up
deedbot: deeds online
lobbes: should I re-deed those or are they in the queue?
trinque: I've got 'em, will make sure they pop out the other end.
lobbes: oops. wrong link: http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-10-02.log.html#t03:16:09
lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-10-02 03:16:09: <lobbes> also to note that going forward, all BTC payments will be done through the deedbot wallet service. If someone wants to pay via that method, let me know and I'll generate the invoice
trinque: lobbes: checked out the commands already?
lobbes: yeah! looks spiffy
trinque: very cool. soon as I'm done mucking around in deedbot's innards, it'll get a proper write-up. docs should be pretty self-explanatory though.
trinque: glad ya like it. let me know how it goes.
lobbes: excited to test it out, although 100% of my payments have been in ecu so far. Perhaps will change now though
mircea_popescu: trinque soo, can i pay these ?
BingoBoingo claps for trinque