shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/urssL/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Also BingoBoingo ... the Noriega article may be one of your best yet :D
shinohai: I hear Oliver North is inconsolable.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/05/lazy-wreckers-actually-dare-to-name-their-thing-etherdoge/ << Qntra - Lazy Wreckers Actually Dare To Name Their Thing "EtherDoge"
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2209.99, vol: 14688.48510099 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2150.011, vol: 7960.10357 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2089.0, vol: 25404.67782437 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2179.71, vol: 10525.84350000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2191.0, vol: 8851.14375247 | Volume-weighted last average: 2150.10654178
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/05/fiat-wraps-up-miserable-may-as-malaise-reaches-new-lows/ << Qntra - Fiat Wraps Up Miserable May As Malaise Reaches New Lows
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo " continue to take it's toll "
mircea_popescu: !!up erlehmann
mircea_popescu: and in today's lulz : bavaria, which apparently still imagines itself a state for some reason, has decided Mahawachiralongkon Bodinthrathepphayawarangkun (that's, incredibly enough, not a german national's name) spends most of his time there, and therefore they get to tax his inheritance.
mircea_popescu: which is rather convenient, seeing how he inherited nothing less than thailand's ~30bn crown fortune (he's the guy in the "scandalous" party where his woman was topless around the pool o noes!11).
mircea_popescu: those 30 bn do include, of course, the blue diamond stolen back in 1989 from saud faisal's palace by a thai janitor, who was then caught by a lt-general of the thay royal police, except when the thais flew back to ryadh to return the loot the saudis discovered the parts not missing were fake.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: curious, how do they intend to collect this tax
mircea_popescu: well, they stole one of the guy's airplanes at some point. that sort of thing i imagine
asciilifeform: oughta have the sense to stay out of where they steal your airplanes...
mircea_popescu: the guy strikes me as dumber than rocks, but what do i know.
mircea_popescu: he's funny though, he won a her-fault divorce with some obnoxious cork of a woman through saying she sucks and she couldn't say anything because lese-majeste.
asciilifeform: bbbbut poor==stupid, rich -- smart!111
mircea_popescu: pretty fucking epic, if you ask me, take a fat old nag to COURT, where she fucking loves to go, and dreams every day of her life, and then say THE BAD!!!1 about HER!!!!!! omfg. and she can't give all teh replies!
mircea_popescu: should be made into an hbo special.
asciilifeform: now, this - win
mircea_popescu: a wonder she survived
mircea_popescu: !!up erlehmann
erlehmann: well, thx
erlehmann: i understand the “many small independent implementations” idea, but does the republic have a grammar for vdiff output? i am sure this is faulty somehow, as it contains neither a recognizer nor an unparser http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/vdiff
mircea_popescu: this is actually a solid point.
erlehmann: full recognition before processing, as they say
mircea_popescu: yes. the vdiff processing was arrived at through historical choice rather than deliberate design. therefore i'd say it's lacking it by accident.
erlehmann: well, i get that GNU diff does not actually verify that there is a timestamp
erlehmann: which is the only thing that makes vdiff possible
erlehmann: sane software would have rejected everything not conforming to the grammar
erlehmann: are you aware of the seven towers of babel?
erlehmann: turrets, not towers. sorry
mircea_popescu: hadn't read that, no.
erlehmann: > The Seven Turrets of Babel: A Taxonomy of LangSec Errors and How to Expunge Them, Falcon Darkstar Momot, Sergey Bratus, Sven M. Hallberg, Meredith L. Patterson
erlehmann: i told all my coworkers to read it. when i told maradydd, she was like “well, that's like the intended purpose”
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i also recommend http://langsec.org/papers/curing-the-vulnerable-parser.pdf
mircea_popescu: what was the intended purpose ?!
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:53 asciilifeform: so i had two base64's png files in there,
erlehmann: the seven turrets of babel is a TL;DR for langsec. it collects antipatterns (in section III) and remedies (in section IV)
asciilifeform: gnudiff Must Die.
mircea_popescu: ah, yes.
erlehmann: so i can show it to people who just want to know what to do
mircea_popescu: erlehmann you seem like a nice enough fellow, why not register your pgp key with deedbot ?
erlehmann: i am the guy at my workplace who always rants about grammars, but i think i am the only one who actually did philosophy in university
mircea_popescu: in truth vdiff is an eminent domain for proper abstraction.
erlehmann: but it works. turns out that if you tell people in code reviews for 3 months straight that they should define a grammar and check their inputs, they start to do that.
erlehmann: really, 3 to 4 months. some immediately get it, but others do it after that timeframe.
mircea_popescu: i suspect you ~don't~ get the "many implementations" thing after all :D
mircea_popescu: republic ain't gonna do it ; it's gonna tell YOU to do it
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 00:24 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'll suggest a 'p-tronic' format for diffs. N\........ specifies N retained-of-a octets (e.g., 5\abcde )
Framedragger: good practice, props for persevering! (i'm the "modularise, bitch" guy at work)
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i was not aware a) registering is possible b) registering is desirable for me. so what do i get out of it and if i want to do it, how?
mircea_popescu: erlehmann well, i'll rate you so you'll be able to self-voice. and see topic, it's in there.
erlehmann: i see
mircea_popescu: can you see the chan topic in your client ?
erlehmann: yes, how to participate. i might have read it at some point in the past.
mircea_popescu: in which mp discovers that how to register with deedbot is NOT actually linked in the topic.
mircea_popescu: i need moar grammar brb.
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i think i do understand the many implementations thing. data that flowing over abstraction boundaries has the potential to trigger a holographic fracture (i believe that is how it is called). to prevent this, you need a parser and an unparser and both need to have the same grammar (max deterministic context-free) and check it.
erlehmann: simple example, ffmpeg
erlehmann: every idiot who just takes an uploaded file and converts it using ffmpeg is just a 4 line text file away from me filling whatever storage the idiot has on the converter system
erlehmann: reason: ffmpeg takes synthesizer instructions in plain text
asciilifeform: erlehmann: recall pkzip-bombs on bbsen ?
erlehmann: no one expects 999gigabytes.mp3 to be a text file instructing ffmpeg to generate silence with a really high sample rate (around 1GB per second)
asciilifeform: on the contrary, any literate fella using a decompressor , expects
erlehmann: asciilifeform actually no, but i think i know what you mean. zip bombs only work with programs that do not do full recognition before processing.
erlehmann: asciilifeform the problem is the different assumption people have about components. the programmer feeding input to ffmpeg expects audio files to be input. a recognizer would solve that.
erlehmann: multiple implementations show multiple assumptions (i.e. multiple grammars)
erlehmann: so it is like testing a lot with malicious compliant testers
asciilifeform: i suspect that erlehmann will like 'p' ( not yet released proggy. ) where you give it a cycle count before it runs, and it gets to step ~that~ many steps, and produces no more than B bytes of output per step...
erlehmann: maybe. ethereum has a gas price, yet it is still turing complete, still reentrant, still vulnerable.
asciilifeform: because monkeys
erlehmann: monkeys love turing completeness
asciilifeform: finite tapes technically ain't turingcomplete
asciilifeform: well, finitetape+fixedsteps
erlehmann: it is about reasoning
erlehmann: putting the mechanism in your head
asciilifeform: you get a halting guarantee, what.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/#footnote_2_68942 << there we go, updated.
erlehmann: the universe provides a halting guarantee: proton decay
mircea_popescu: any other glaring errors anyone ?
asciilifeform: ( in 'p', nor ethertardium )
erlehmann: i have a talent to find errors by not comprehending stuff. talk context-free or regular to me!
mircea_popescu: lol. yeah, i think i might've seen that before.
erlehmann: i think it is a good rule to talk to autists
erlehmann: like that
mircea_popescu: well, it'd better be, not so much else available to talk to these days, is there.
erlehmann: i also highly prefer it if people talk to me like that. the worst people are those that are like “please send me this and that” – “send me an email with the full details of what and where i should send it please” – “can't you just infer it from the last time you mailed me something?”
erlehmann: i can, but it puts the burden on me. possible misunderstandings.
mircea_popescu: hey, i beat the slavegirls if they fail to infer ; and also if they infer incorrectly.
mircea_popescu: sucks being a slavegirl.
erlehmann: at one langsec and tea gathering i suspected that every joke contains a misunderstanding on some level
erlehmann: therefore: no deterministic context-free jokes
mircea_popescu: actually in my youth i deemed as the highest achievement in literature a situation where multiple parties participated in a conversation that admits an interpretation for each.
erlehmann: three moldbugs walk into a bar …
mircea_popescu: lol. there's that joke with the christian and jew debating the truth of the bible also.
erlehmann: so who of you has opinions about build systems?
erlehmann: i guess some of you have
erlehmann: i am of the opinion that all build systems except my own redo implementation are shit. reason: non-existence dependencies. if you search for header files at locations A, B, C, find it at C, then C is a dependency. but if non-existing A or B start to exist, the target must rebuilt.
erlehmann: you can easily infer what those files are using strace or similar methods
erlehmann: but apparently, i am the only one who does. DJB thought of it, he has notes on it.
erlehmann: as always, make is shit and can not handle this
erlehmann: experimenting with a medium-size C++ project (liberation circuit) i found that there can be as much non-existence dependencies as “normal” dependencies
erlehmann: meaning almost all software is rotten to the core based on this alone
asciilifeform: make cannot handle much of anything; i use it as a multi-knobbed bash, essentially
mircea_popescu: i suspect the idea is that systems which require something like make are broken anyway.
erlehmann: asciilifeform if you like builds and shell script, like redo http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/redo-sh.html
asciilifeform: i like ada's gprbuild
erlehmann: depends only on coreutils or busybox
erlehmann: no compiler etc. pp.
mircea_popescu: speaking of, what should the flymake for lisp be called ? drool ? dribble ?
erlehmann: apparently he implemented at least parts of it. some of his elliptic curve stuff has dofiles.
erlehmann: but he never released it
erlehmann: i asked him at two conferences and both times he was like “i have to answer lots of questions about crypto, ask later pls”
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: slime
asciilifeform: already exists
erlehmann: mircea_popescu maggot. a maggot is what makes a fly.
erlehmann: what do i win
mircea_popescu: a fly ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hm ok ok
erlehmann: a maggot is a larva of a fly
mircea_popescu: yes yes erlehmann. you win -- a fly!
erlehmann: also ugly names discourage superficial hipsters, hopefully
shinohai: "We were playing with maggots before it was cool!"
erlehmann: concerning non-existence dependencies: https://github.com/linleyh/liberation-circuit/commit/8b7d1b252406ce87fd94aec04d2a1959a593a61e
mircea_popescu: erlehmann "ugly", no. but sexually masculine (ie, suggestive of forceful copulation) names are very well documented to.
asciilifeform: in recent sads, 'Our batch prime-generation algorithm suggests that, to help reduce energy consumption and protect the environment, all users of RSA—including users of traditional pre-quantum RSA—should delegate their key-generation computa- tions to NIST or another trusted third party. This speed improvement would also allow users to generate new RSA keys and erase old RSA keys more frequently, limiting the damage of key theft.'
asciilifeform: -- djb!!
asciilifeform: rip, djb
phf: fwiw, input parsing should probably be solved through compartmentalization. don't run mpg123 on your gnupg machine. in any case djb likewise said all that needs to be said about "secure languages" in his "Some thoughts on security after ten years of qmail 1.0"
mircea_popescu: ahaahaha WHAT
erlehmann: phf who believes people who cannot roll their own grammar can roll their own compar-virtual-boundary-thingy?
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is wrong with the usgtards ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma guess he's been shot.
phf: erlehmann: people who can't roll their own grammar can still buy two separate machines though
mircea_popescu: it seems the parsimonious explanation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform altough after that utterly shameful episode with the transvestite whore living at his house...
erlehmann: phf i believe you misunderstand the problem
phf: erlehmann: go on
erlehmann: LANGSEC is about programmers able to reason about protocols and state transitions
mircea_popescu: erlehmann can you explain this liberation circuit thing to me ?
erlehmann: mircea_popescu a real time strategy game by linley henzell (who created overgod and garden of colored lights) where every unit is programmed in a language not entirely unlike C.
mircea_popescu: so far this seems ~same as what led eulora to having open bots. they are programed in... literal c.
mircea_popescu: is there more to it ?
erlehmann: there is a graphical unit designer that sets up the structs right
erlehmann: which makes it playable. previous attempt “invincible countermeasure” did not have a graphical designer.
mircea_popescu: do you know this guy ?
erlehmann: well, gameplay-wise: units are limited by number of ticks. want to do trigonometry? prepare to sacrifice ticks
phf: erlehmann: sure, but the question is, are you designing your protocol from scratch or you're saying something about an existing protocol. and if you're designing it from scratch then there are existing long established solutions that long predate langsec (unless of course they are just an education organization). but if you're saying something about existing solutions, and you mentioned ffmpeg etc., then it's your classical security specialist "y'all i
phf: diots" position. what you going to audit ffmpeg? i'm saying that the correct solution is not to run media decoder on a mission critical machine
mircea_popescu: phf i suspect he's young ; in any case excitable. give the man a moment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that djb piece is epic multilayer shitsandwich : he advocates 1TB+ keys; consisting of MANY (i.e. smaller!) primes ; and because 'quantum apocalypse'
erlehmann: mircea_popescu only by mail. apparently he writes games on windows with code::blocks. i wrote a dofile and contributed some features.
erlehmann: phf i have worked on existing protocol. the grammar codifies the assumptions that you as a programmer make. take an ENUM in the input, for example. grammar should only contain values you know you can process right.
mircea_popescu: erlehmann ah ok.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mindboggling.
mircea_popescu: life these days is muchly reminiscent of 1980s, reading comuniques from disidents behind the iron curtain, trying to judge how genuine, what happened, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: oh and coauthored with nadia heninger
erlehmann: phf someone gives you a “mp3” file with ogg page structure? abort immediately.
erlehmann: phf basically, “be liberal in what you accept” is bullshit. be definite about what you accept.
mircea_popescu: at least the kgb 2.0 is as bumblingly self-absorbed as the original.
erlehmann: mircea_popescu if you like RTS without multiplayer, i suggest to try out liberation circuit. the math seems to be fixed-point only, so real-time multiplayer should be possible if you can wade through the abysmal codebase.
erlehmann: it is written by a single self-taught game programmer who apparently uses indentation randomly
erlehmann: play-by-email against autonomous bots from someone else should be deterministic because of fixed-point math
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was quite certain that djb is gone for good when 0 replies to multiple attempted reach-outs re phuctor.
erlehmann: at least that is what he claims, i never tried
mircea_popescu: erlehmann i own a publisher ; not particularly looking for a game, but vaguely interested in competent/efficient dev people for eulora client improvment.
erlehmann: asciilifeform djb never replied to my emails as well. i asked fefe about it and he was like “that guy has tenure, he does not care, people had to pester him for years to make his stuff public domain”
mircea_popescu: oh, you know the fefe.de guy ?
erlehmann: we sometimes bump into each other at conferences. also i made the yellow press (BILD) stylesheet for his blog some time ago.
erlehmann: and he does answer emails
mircea_popescu: he should definitely be here.
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i never heard of eulora. earn BTC for playing games?
mircea_popescu: a possible side-effect.
mircea_popescu: can as well lose btc for playing games.
mircea_popescu: but the point is principally "try and make ANY sense of the server mechanics"
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i believe linley is creative and knows his theory. but no one ever asked him to clean up his code.
erlehmann: but why not just email him? he answers nicely.
erlehmann: and has a functioning bullshit detector. evidence: someone proposed a docker container to run the game “more easily”. linley politely declined.
mircea_popescu: well up until now because i never heard of him ; from now on tba.
phf: erlehmann: that is true, but doesn't take into account complete attack surface. i agree that "write a proper parser" should be the first step, but that's also a baseline. problem is that most of these protocols are either non-regular, have types that depend on state (e.g. a fixnum whose range changes based on a flag), or are outright turing complete
asciilifeform: the actual problem is that they do not fit-in-head.
mircea_popescu: there's also the suspicion that the only reason this "appears to work" as a securitizing approach has to do strictyly with it not being in general use.
mircea_popescu: as per an ancient thread re dynamic vs static models.
erlehmann: phf yeah, the results are not palatable to people. “what i can not do ‘<script>document.write('<script>')</script>’ anymore?”
erlehmann: what asciilifeform says
asciilifeform: and erlehmann i read the paper you linked.
erlehmann: asciilifeform extrapolate your onions?
asciilifeform: whole field is ill-conceived : plugs wrong end of the funnel.
erlehmann: what wrong end? it actually plugs both ends. the parser and the unparser.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663689 << i believe you misquoted out of context. the purpose of that was to (as you can see if you read till end of para), "The challenge here is to show that secure multi-user RSA key generation can becarried out more efficiently than one-user-at-a-time RSA key generation"
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:17 asciilifeform: in recent sads, 'Our batch prime-generation algorithm suggests that, to help reduce energy consumption and protect the environment, all users of RSA—including users of traditional pre-quantum RSA—should delegate their key-generation computa- tions to NIST or another trusted third party. This speed improvement would also allow users to generate new RSA keys and erase old RSA keys more frequently, limiting the damage of key theft.'
Framedragger: i don't believe they are actually suggesting that doing key gen on third party is a good idea for user. discussion was about performance, no? (granted, did not read whole paper)
asciilifeform: the actual curative pill is a system with no nonimmediatelyobviousliketwooplustwo code.
phf: well, that's why i referred to that djb paper about qmail. he stated both the problem and the solution, and his solution was essentially "compartmentalize", but when it comes to parsers specifically it's something very aggressive. like a fixed length line reader that dispatches on a single prefix character. not even a "grammar"
asciilifeform: Framedragger: go read and come back
asciilifeform: erlehmann: 'validating input' is idiotic - a sanely designed system simply contains no physically possible perdition state to be led into.
asciilifeform: example : full adder.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: alright, will do later. given that you quoted from the concluding section however, makes me doubt whether my opinion will change. but will do.
asciilifeform: what will you do to it, to take it to an invalid state ? connect to 220 volts ?
asciilifeform: because so long as you stay in the voltage and hold time constraints ( and you won't be violating these over internet ) it will give correct answer, now and 1000 yrs from now, to all physically possible inputs.
phf: validating input is the security community mantra that i remember since i joined it in 99 or so
erlehmann: asciilifeform by that standard, everything is insane (i might even agree). LANGSEC is not planet-wide asepsis, it is washing hands before walking to the operating table.
asciilifeform: and no 'validation of grammar' in sight !!
phf: these days it has additional twist of haskelization and provable grammars and such
asciilifeform: phf: it's poison.
asciilifeform: rotthebody, rothebrain, cucaracha! (tm)(r)
erlehmann: asciilifeform a spy opens an envelope and finds a patchset. what next?
asciilifeform: erlehmann: he eats it, washes down with cyanide ?
erlehmann: my answer would be: spy whips out recognizer, nukes everything from orbit if language of patchset does not match language that is expected.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the whole notion of "rsa keygen efficiency" is a little bit in the vein of "cheapest wedding dress".
asciilifeform: erlehmann: describe why you think that recognizing ought to be separate operation from actually processing
asciilifeform: the implication is that it is acceptable for processor to be vulnerable
asciilifeform: which is nuttery.
erlehmann: asciilifeform mixing validation and processing code makes it harder to reason about possible code paths. after the recognizer you can be sure that the rest of the system does not have to handle anything.
asciilifeform: this is dumbfoundigly stupid.
erlehmann: anti-pattern “shotgun parser”. draw the processing diagram on to the wall. shoot at it with a shotgun. everywhere the bullets hit, validate stuff.
erlehmann: this is how most people do it, basically
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, after writing that i recalled gossipd design and intentions (need to generate a lot of keys, and if it takes a month - so fucking be it)...
asciilifeform: lose the weak 'rest of the system'.
erlehmann: ad-hoc validation creates a lot of exit conditions that interact with each other
erlehmann: system does not fit in head as easily
asciilifeform: where in 1000 ln of 20char lines will you have this nonsense fit ?
erlehmann: i do not understand the question, care to elaborate?
asciilifeform: these 'a lot of exit condition'
asciilifeform: you presume puddle of liquishit complexity, erlehmann
asciilifeform: a la openssl
asciilifeform: but the future contains no such
asciilifeform: this is the abbatoir, erlehmann , where we butcher it.
asciilifeform: not to help it to live, with 'protections' and 'mitigations'
asciilifeform: fuck mitigations.
erlehmann: urbit at one point broke down crying if you fed it U+1F46C GAY MEN 👬
asciilifeform: lemme show you an example, erlehmann
erlehmann: asciilifeform so what does this `p` do you wrote earlier of?
asciilifeform: 'p' is simply a calculator, a la 'bc', on top of it
erlehmann: i use dc
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 23:00 asciilifeform: i was not going to expand on the 'p' thread until the proggy is done, but this is probably a good time to say 1 more
erlehmann: but i'll wait
erlehmann: reminds me of my adventures with libglitch (most useless shit i wrote and probably most popular)
asciilifeform: erlehmann: no c; no dynamic memory allocation; no unchecked buffer accesses at all, anywhere; no libraries; no dynamic linking; no 'idiomatic' idiocy; and most importantly, no more than few thou. line.
asciilifeform: incl comments.
erlehmann: i chose postfix notation and a wraparound ringbuffer as a “stack” because postfix can always be evaluated
phf: erlehmann: i think what we're saying is that validation for the sake of validation is an incomplete solution for various reasons. you come from a position where you need to convince people that parsing is important, we're saying that ~we know~ and ~we do it~, but we also think that it's not the whole solution.
erlehmann: it was for live coding
erlehmann: idiots reimplemented it themselves using infix notation
erlehmann: of course infix allows you to have an incomplete expression – like “(a + b” without a closing paren
erlehmann: so the synthesizer would stop if you did not type fast enough
erlehmann: phf so about that v grammar.
erlehmann: (“we do it”)
erlehmann: asciilifeform i see what you mean. i can not claim to understand everything, but it looks saner than C.
asciilifeform: erlehmann: gnudiff, gpg, etc are liquishit, and currently operator is expected to review all inputs and outputs. by. hand.
asciilifeform: if he wants to live.
asciilifeform: this is a practice that is here to stay.
erlehmann: you know part of why i came here is my friends have become mad
erlehmann: they no longer write roguelikes where you can shit yourself to death
erlehmann: more like: <buckket> ok habe nun MSI GTX 1070 für mein mining rig gekoppt
phf: erlehmann: well, i said "parsing" i didn't say grammar. there are different ways to write a parser. btcbase uses a readtable dispatch based parser to construct an in memory vpatch structure, i just checked, in about 90 lines of lisp. presumably if somebody wanted to write a parser using yacc, they'd have to write a lalr grammar for a vpatch
erlehmann: i believe at least some crypto currency marketing triggers similar magpie instincts as earlier scams
asciilifeform: all scams work ~same
erlehmann: but i have not yet found out why people are unaffected. and why i do not feel the same as they do.
asciilifeform: !#s chumpatronic
Framedragger currently trying to fight ceo who wants to do an ICO, can relate somewhat
Framedragger: (this may just be a fatal red flag, tho.)
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 11:18 Framedragger: via funkenstein_ https://ponzico.win/ponzico.pdf / https://ponzico.win/
erlehmann: the former boss of my boss, when asked about ethereum, was like “my investment strategy is: i hope you get rich with ether and then give me some of it”
erlehmann: asciilifeform where does the tron(ic) suffix come from? versionatron? chumpatronic?
mircea_popescu: sounds very "we in europe have 60% taxes and think women should talk at the table."
mircea_popescu: "in the manner of, to the effect of, in the style of, like"
erlehmann: i think he meant it more like “haha good luck you imbecile”
mircea_popescu: "pertaining to, of, etcetera"
erlehmann: i see
phf: it's a calque from russian
erlehmann: in german the calque word for a german calque is “zangendeutsch”
erlehmann: “forced/forcing german” → “zwangs deutsch” → losing the “w”, sounding like the word for forceps → “zangen deutsch”
mircea_popescu: zangen is forceps ?
erlehmann: i think?
mircea_popescu: aha cool.
Framedragger: erlehmann: just idly curious, why did you not continue studying at TUM? i'm only curious because i considered that once, too, and "heard it was good" (well they also seemed to be offering solid-looking courses when i visited them in ~2013). just in case answer pertains to objective details
erlehmann: more pliers
phf: chumpatron is from "lohotron" where loh is a chump, it's a word play on "lototron" which is a lottery machine
mircea_popescu: ahh, recall the grand old days when this terminology was getting established ?
erlehmann: Framedragger 1. prof demoed some program he wrote (?) in linear algebra course 2. i asked about source code. 3. answer was like “you do not get source code, you would not understand anyway” 4. no other student thought it ridiculous for a teacher to not give source. 5. i found out implementation was really simple.
mircea_popescu: wait, so you... quit ?
erlehmann: i moved to berlin to study philosphy at humboldt university. different climate there. especially regarding bad teaching.
mircea_popescu: good for you.
Framedragger long ago got a "you're not yet ready to read kant, read this about kant", which in retrospect may have been a misjudgement (you can kinda sorta just read Kant, esp. if you're read hume), but i just went along with it. worked in the end. maybe not comparable situation, but anyway
erlehmann: the only person who would not give complete corresponding source and supplementary materials for stuff was a neuroscientist i think. something about having done lots of work to collect the data and analyze it.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger definitely not comparable situation.
erlehmann: Framedragger in short. climate at TUM is like “you are becoming engineers. do not ask questions. money goes to research.”
Framedragger: source code.. wonder if there's a good reason possible if intention was to give source eventually. prolly not...
Framedragger: erlehmann: ah, shit, well ok
Framedragger: sad to hear
mircea_popescu: natural language is useless for any serious rational purpose without endless washing and starching. math does not suffer from the same problem.
erlehmann: i quit studying philosophy at HU to earn money.
erlehmann: turns out i am a far better programmer than philosopher btw
mircea_popescu: most oracles also discover they're much better cooks than oracles.
erlehmann: Framedragger the author of http://unteralterbach.net did not want to give source immediately to not enable shitlords to spoil the game's easter eggs.
phf: Framedragger: it's probably shit code that professor was planning on fixing "eventually". i've managed to acquire a number of these "secret" sources while at umd and most of them were horrendous.
erlehmann: i consider that legitimate
Framedragger: (not sure what "good philosopher" would even mean these days, most of "modern philosophy" is same ol' "research journal" printolade anyway)
Framedragger: lol, ok :D gotcha.
erlehmann: Framedragger if you know german, i suggest to play unteralterbach. i also suggest to not visit commonwealth countries and others with weird sex laws (comic sex = real punishments) when having that.
Framedragger has a folder of shit uni java too, somewhere
erlehmann: well, unless you are easily offended, that is
Framedragger: erlehmann: am currently in UK which given its government's position on "weird sex" probably has outlawed said website through multiple acts of parliament
Framedragger: signed by her majesty the queen
erlehmann: Framedragger probably. won't visit UK anytime soon.
Framedragger: thanks for the pointer, will actually check. i know a bit of german but too little. may make it even more fun, tho
erlehmann: game is also there in english
phf: i wonder if this creates significant cognitive dissonance in these people. it took me a while to learn how to scale elegance (and how incredibly costly it is, hence gems like tex.web ARE gems), but here you have a prof, drinking own koolaid of whatever best practices, attempts to write a non-trivial project and ends up with unmanageable complexity
mircea_popescu: phf and then you ask him why he continues to pretend like he has something to say in plenum and he breaks down and cries before 200 students.
erlehmann: phf good profs listen and learn even from students if appropriate.
mircea_popescu: of all the gone traditions of the academic citadel, the one mp most regrets is mercilessness.
erlehmann: i once had a case of a philosophy lecturer claiming computers cannot work on meaning, only syntax. i answered with an explanation of undefined behaviour in C compilers.
mircea_popescu: and he bought that ?!
erlehmann: i think part of the room was sufficiently disoriented by the fact that GCC drops loops without side effects
erlehmann: (… because they have no meaning)
mircea_popescu: lmao. worst argument ever.
phf: (heavy technobabble) prof: yeah yeah ugh i can see that, moving on
erlehmann: i think i actually got through by demonstrating n3
mircea_popescu: "ex nihilo nihil fit ergo please believe computers are people"
erlehmann: i have no idea how someone can believe elementary logic is something magic
erlehmann: that only the human brain can do
erlehmann: while teaching formal methods to work with it
mircea_popescu: erlehmann elementary logic does not work on meaning ; only syntax.
erlehmann: mircea_popescu certainly, i was referring to a different person that claimed a computer can not work with “a → b … and also, a is false” or something like that
erlehmann: i am ever so slightly sorry for not telling in understandable ways
erlehmann: but back to the GCC example, i think someone said “a computer can not recognize meaninglessness” or similar
Framedragger: isn't it fun that even C macros are not context-free, huehuehue. such language!
erlehmann: reducing something to NOP seemed to imply something different
erlehmann: Framedragger to the moon with it!
erlehmann: i bet you read that at the orange wobsite
Framedragger: it *reminded* me of that fact, i knew it was crazy turing complete madness before tho :D
erlehmann: asciilifeform any timetable on p?
asciilifeform: erlehmann: finished, aside from a few of the higher arithm ops
asciilifeform: ( and docs )
asciilifeform: why, can't wait ?
phf: erlehmann: do you still use "neo 2 keyboard layout"?
erlehmann: asciilifeform curious.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663763 << this i'm affraid is wishful thinking. consider the simple case of the 110/220 volt switch on most desktop power supplies. it... does contain such a state, as part and parcel of why it even exists in the first place.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:39 asciilifeform: erlehmann: 'validating input' is idiotic - a sanely designed system simply contains no physically possible perdition state to be led into.
mircea_popescu: this i suspect is generally the case, if an item doesn't contain deadly possible states it is more properly a toy than a tool.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the problem of the 110/220 swich is not, to this day, solved.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663768 << let me tell you what it does, because i recently ran a browser games check. a) won't allow email from domains with >3 char tlds. because VALIDATING INPUT, yes. b) won't allow your password. it's too long (yes), it has special characters (o ya), it whatever on a stick.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:41 phf: validating input is the security community mantra that i remember since i joined it in 99 or so
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663769 << yet procreation works whether you wash your dick or don't. scandalously, it seems it actually works better if you don't.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:41 erlehmann: asciilifeform by that standard, everything is insane (i might even agree). LANGSEC is not planet-wide asepsis, it is washing hands before walking to the operating table.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:44 erlehmann: my answer would be: spy whips out recognizer, nukes everything from orbit if language of patchset does not match language that is expected.
mircea_popescu: i spent a while having to subdue my fridge which had become embroiled along with my washing machine and its allies in an air-and-sea war over some misunderstandings, and i decided no more of that! no fridge, no washing machine, no spy etc needs its own armored divisions!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663919 << screamingly bad example -- all current ps lack the switch, and in fact designed to make use of 90-300volt, wherever in the world
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 15:36 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663763 << this i'm affraid is wishful thinking. consider the simple case of the 110/220 volt switch on most desktop power supplies. it... does contain such a state, as part and parcel of why it even exists in the first place.
asciilifeform: and not by 'autodetecting' (validating!111) either, but by actual design
asciilifeform: ( transformerless conversion )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663922 << entirely solved , lol! i got rid of all 'switch'-having ps years! ago
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 15:37 mircea_popescu: in any case, the problem of the 110/220 swich is not, to this day, solved.
asciilifeform: not 1 left in any of asciilifeform's systems.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663925 << the direct equiv of unwashedcock is the winblowz box plugged directly into public net
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 15:43 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663769 << yet procreation works whether you wash your dick or don't. scandalously, it seems it actually works better if you don't.
asciilifeform: where yes 'procreation worx great!'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663921 << overall it is not a useful line of thought re physical objects, all of which have 'potential deadly state', say of being launched through my head in a tornado. it is only interesting re information-processors.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 15:36 mircea_popescu: this i suspect is generally the case, if an item doesn't contain deadly possible states it is more properly a toy than a tool.
asciilifeform: which in fact can be built to validly transition from every possible state to another valid possible state ( see the adder example earlier. )
asciilifeform: the generalization of the principle is ffa
asciilifeform: where the only 'world ends' operation is div0
asciilifeform: ( and leads to terminate-with-epitaph, a perfectly valid state, rather than exploitability )
asciilifeform: now in all fairness, the coveted 'information processer' is not found in nature, only the lowly 'physical object' is found there; and to make the former out of the latter is not at all easy,
asciilifeform: !#s metastability
asciilifeform: ^ very real problem when i was building FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: and wanted the thing to be repeatable ('yoke test' per the docs)
asciilifeform: see old thread re subj
asciilifeform: (problem was , analogue rng's waveform, while meeting the signal voltage constraint, and even the rise/fall time constraints, sometimes does not meet the hold time constraint! and results in metastable state in digital chip it is connected to
asciilifeform: the practical consequence of this is that when it was connected to TWO of'em, they could easily end up with different impressions of what they saw, breaking 'yokeability')
asciilifeform: how i solved this -- is exercise for the reader ( i did solve it )
asciilifeform: read the fuckingsource folx!111
asciilifeform: now if meteor falls on it, or nuke is set off nearby, all bets still off. physical object.
asciilifeform: ( everything and everybody one day reverts to 'physical object' behaviour... )
asciilifeform: funny bit re metastability -- i did not realize that it was the one and only possible culprit until i confirmed that the logic analyzer in fact saw, on multiple occasions (at least 1 ppm) a variant logic state from what the rest of the circuit saw.
asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
asciilifeform: because the alternative is 'oh, shuddup that winblowz is porous, because godel, nyahahaha'
asciilifeform: it is solely an excuse for pissing the bed, and never anything else.
phf: halting problem!1
asciilifeform: i actually met a 'genius' who : asciilifeform: 'winblowz crashes daily' ; d00d : 'hey, halting problem unsolvable!'
asciilifeform: дай дураку топор (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: !~later tell erlehmann http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663810 << this is neat, and yes, exactly same idea.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:52 erlehmann: reminds me of my adventures with libglitch (most useless shit i wrote and probably most popular)
asciilifeform: what happened here
asciilifeform: .. shinohai ?
asciilifeform: !#seen jhvh1
a111: 2017-05-31 <jhvh1> BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2209.99, vol: 14688.48510099 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2150.011, vol: 7960.10357 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2089.0, vol: 25404.67782437 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2179.71, vol: 10525.84350000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2191.0, vol: 8851.14375247 | Volume-weighted last average: 2150.10654178
asciilifeform: lol, useless
asciilifeform: (for bot)
phf: would be handy if a111 tracked parts..
shinohai: server reset last night asciilifeform ... should be back up momentarily.
asciilifeform: !~later tell erlehmann http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663810 << this is neat, and yes, exactly same idea.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:52 erlehmann: reminds me of my adventures with libglitch (most useless shit i wrote and probably most popular)
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ty shinohai .
asciilifeform: in continued lulz,
asciilifeform: 'This work was supported by the Commission of the European Communities through the Horizon 2020 program under project number 645622 (PQCRYPTO) and project number 645421 (ECRYPT-CSA); by the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific Research (NWO) under grant 639.073.005; by the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology under grant 60NANB10D263; by the U.S. National Science Foundation under grants 1314919, 1408734, 1505799, an
asciilifeform: d 1513671; and by a gift from Cisco. P. Lou was supported by the Rachleff Scholars program at the University of Pennsylvania. We are grateful to Cisco for donating much of the hardware used for our experiments.'
asciilifeform: -- djb et al.
asciilifeform: 'Generating large amounts of truly random data is expensive. Fortunately, truly random data can be simulated by pseudorandom data produced by a stream cipher from a much smaller key. (Even better, slight deficiencies in the randomness of the cipher key do not compromise security.) The literature contains several scalable ciphers....' -- djb et al
asciilifeform: (from same horror show as earlier)
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/oa8cj/?raw=true << whole text, for the truly dedicated entomologist.
phf: i wonder what they mean by "large amounts", could they just run a handful of FUCKGOATS in parallel? is there some hidden flaw in FUCKGOATS approach that makes the solution non-viable? so many questions!
phf: why is there a need for a "quantum random number generator" (from yesterday's thread)?
asciilifeform: i'd luvvv to know..
phf: indeed. i'd like for one of these fucks to go "oh, we've tried this solution in 87 and there's reason A and B for why it's not applicable at industrial scale" or "oh we need 10000KB/s which means that blah blah blah"
phf: because as it stands it all very much looks like "we don't need solutions because dat grant money"
asciilifeform: phf: d00d was always a bit... odd. recall his paper re 'make as little use of rng as possible, because ohnoez it could be subverted' ?
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and not by 'autodetecting' (validating!111) either, but by actual design << awww, k.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663991 << yes, there is. it's not hidden, either : it dispenses with any role for or need of the stupid fat old women in "the Commission of the European Communities" not to mention " the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific Research " and etcetera.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 19:16 phf: i wonder what they mean by "large amounts", could they just run a handful of FUCKGOATS in parallel? is there some hidden flaw in FUCKGOATS approach that makes the solution non-viable? so many questions!
mircea_popescu: if only we agreed to agree the dumb cunts are important they'd gladly agree fuckgoats works!
mircea_popescu: problem is, when we wake up tomorrow, the dumb cunts will still be dumb cunts ; while fuckgoats will still work.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663994 << 10mbps is still cheaper to make with fuckgoats than through whatever alternative they have.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 19:23 phf: indeed. i'd like for one of these fucks to go "oh, we've tried this solution in 87 and there's reason A and B for why it's not applicable at industrial scale" or "oh we need 10000KB/s which means that blah blah blah"
mircea_popescu: that's the thing with superior technology, the fact that you need 10 tons carried rather than 10kgs is not an argument in favour of oxcarts and against trucks. on the contrary -- the more needs carried, the more you want the trucks to carry it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linux seems to have a problem with >7 usb-tty devices -- but this ain't asciilifeform's fault
asciilifeform: so yes, you can stack'em
asciilifeform: ( say, N pogos; and 7 per )
asciilifeform: alternatively you can use a 'rs232 card', as formerly used to run dumb terminals, bbs modems, similar -- i have one here, happily does 9 ports
asciilifeform: ( at 115200 ea. )
asciilifeform: you can get ones that do 32, even.
asciilifeform: rs232 has been around for loooooooong time
asciilifeform: 'comtrol' makes a bunch
asciilifeform: others also.
BingoBoingo: It's pretty clear that without scintillator'd FUCKGOATS that NoSuchlAbs needs to produce PASHTUN to herd FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: if there were pent-up demand for ruinously high bit rate, we could do pci version with N analogue boards; but so far i dun see it
BingoBoingo: Give it 36 months for TMSR weather service S.CLIMAx to need ruinously high bitrate for "forecasting"
mircea_popescu: just pent-up domain to save the environment by publishing more pointless papers.
asciilifeform: ( pci etc would make moar sense for 'atomic' trng, as described in older thread, with the scintillator, because there your entropy extraction is limited more or less only by the clock speed of the take-off/debiaser and the dead time of the scintillator (1-5ns) )
asciilifeform: so 100-200MB/s easy.
asciilifeform: ( per crystal! )
BingoBoingo: In other victories for "our democracy" a minor Preetling arrested by local constables http://www.bnd.com/news/local/article153608214.html#wgt=trending
mircea_popescu: lost me at cloudflare
BingoBoingo: The driver left the scene of a property damage accident where his vehicle left the roadway. The driver smelled strongly of an alcoholic beverage and his eyes were red and glassy in appearance. The driver admitted to drinking an alcoholic beverage. The driver was unable to complete the field sobriety testing.
BingoBoingo: Wigginton refused to take a Breathalyzer, according to the report. He posted $100 bail and was released. Wigginton resigned as U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Illinois on Nov. 24, 2015, to work for a private law firm. Wigginton became U.S. attorney in August 2010 after former U.S. President Barack Obama nominated him to serve as the top prosecutor in the states southern 38 counties. Wigginton, a Democrat, replaced Republica
BingoBoingo: n Courtney Cox, who was appointed to the position in 2007.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i may be thick, but : what is interesting about this one ?
asciilifeform: what, 1 in 10 adult d00dz in usa did this crime.
asciilifeform: and maybe 1 in 100 does the time
asciilifeform: recall, this is the country where every pub has a PARKING LOT
asciilifeform: that holds dozens, sometimes hundred cars
BingoBoingo: But how many 1 in 100 doing the time also were Preetlings appointed by Hussein Bahamas?
mircea_popescu: the parking lot is for the people who came to eat!
asciilifeform: aaaah suure.
BingoBoingo: So in other local lulz, Marxist aggitators want to remove Confederate memorial from park in StL city. Same aggitators love/ignore local "farmer's" market that used to hold "Pick-a-Nigger Sunday" sales.
mircea_popescu: i don't think they go by what could be described as criteria.
trinque: same nonsense noise about sam houston statues here, by whichever loud daughters of california league.
mircea_popescu: ~statues seem to be problematic to the ambulant children these days
asciilifeform: hey, the ukrs TO THIS DAY haven't run out of lenins to topple
asciilifeform: so much easier to turn over a statue than to actually accomplish something other than being piece of shit
trinque: kids can't stand up straight; objects that can't but otherwise, naturally offensive
asciilifeform: statues don't fight back, either
mircea_popescu: i confess i find toppling lenin statues quite satisfying myself.
asciilifeform: just as i will find turning over washington statues satisfying, if i live to partake of it
mircea_popescu: well, lincoln, for sure.
mircea_popescu: possibly worlds most over-rated war criminal.
mircea_popescu: ~what the common libertard thinks hitler is, basically.
asciilifeform: funnily enough, not so many lincolns in usa
asciilifeform: other than the gigantic monster one in the capital
mircea_popescu: not that many hitlers either. some evil empires are more figurative than others.
asciilifeform: well lincoln's empire not yet rm -rf / 'd yet
mircea_popescu: there weren't any during the 1k years either.
asciilifeform generally barfs at photos of 'pulled down statue' given as they figure prominently in orangerevolutionary material, of pissants kicking dead lions
mircea_popescu: "why didn;t you pull it down back when it'd have meant something" ?
asciilifeform: whether lenin, saddam, whoever. nothing pissant, esp in a crowd, loves more than to throw down symbol of ~his~ utter insignificance
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: anyone recall description of old woman who fired revolver into (already long dead, hanging upside-down) mussolini ?
asciilifeform: 'one round for each of 8 dead sons!' or how it went.
mircea_popescu: 5 iirc
asciilifeform: 'where were you when he was alive'
asciilifeform: aha yes
mircea_popescu: i suppose when he was alive they weren't letting her get close enough ?
asciilifeform: ~one~ possibility.
shinohai: Buenas tardes mod6
mod6: pretty terse SoBA this month...
mod6: will have it out in just a moment.
shinohai: For a less terse SoBA, participate and build your own. The voices in thy head will fill in the blanks
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in monkeystan, https://archive.is/moE9o >> 'The ruling found no legal grounds for reversing Ulbricht's conviction or 2015 sentence for founding and operating Silk Road' << BingoBoingo / qntra ?
asciilifeform: ^ check out the photo of judge !
mod6: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Republic: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-June/000265.html
asciilifeform: neato mod6
phf: “Wonder Woman’s lack of armpit hair sparks feminist debate (nytimes.com)”
deedbot: accepted: 1
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/06/qntra-s-qntr-may-2017-report/ << Qntra - Qntra (S.QNTR) May 2017 Report
BingoBoingo: !~later tell mircea_popescu http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3x8Or/?raw=true
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2355.07, vol: 17403.88195784 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2266.53, vol: 5836.33493 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2239.8, vol: 19350.1679223 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2474.307864, vol: 20638.22870000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2347.809, vol: 9361.47482754 | Volume-weighted last average: 2350.18836504