deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A035B8E99A0B459D9BA18C193DF9230FAB2AF0C7B6434DAEC4FBF38934D19B0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1714...9743 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-235-75.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MA)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A035B8E99A0B459D9BA18C193DF9230FAB2AF0C7B6434DAEC4FBF38934D19B0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1786...7289 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-235-75.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MA)
davout: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct?
davout: lol, disregard
davout: well actually, the three revisions seem to reference the same vdiff.sh, which apparently works, but gives me some error messages
davout: so with the eventual goal of cleanly amputating the wallet off of TRB I'm kind of wondering what the best approach is here,
davout: either remove the wallet and everything that depends on it in one go (pretty much everything that uses keys stored by the client)
davout: or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
davout: i've started by simply removing the signmessage and verifymessage functionality
davout: mostly as an exercise in vtronics
davout: getting a feel for the whole patch authoring process without touching anything very sensitive
davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
davout: i suspect something's broken in my vdifftronics
mircea_popescu: davout even if the whole bundle is released in one go, it is probably best practice to do the snips one at a time in that many patches.
davout: probably easier to merge multiple patches into one than unmerge a hairball
mircea_popescu: let the job of merging be done later, that's the idea. eventually as the chains get long and review has progressed significantly, people can rebase multiple patches into one.
mircea_popescu: this activity would be the v-equivalent of "stable release"
mircea_popescu: and in other news, some dude apparently goes and pours aluminum into fire anthills, sells the resulting casts.
mircea_popescu: kinda repetitive but yeah.
davout: probably catches lots of dust too
mircea_popescu: lol what a thoughtful household head you are.
davout: kinda bijective with "let's put a wallet in bitcoind", catches dust too
davout: meanwhile, in france, police stations getting attacked http://www.leparisien.fr/saint-germain-en-laye-78100/saint-germain-en-laye-une-bande-cagoulee-attaque-le-poste-de-la-police-municipale-27-01-2017-6626244.php
mircea_popescu: yeah, well, at some point someone thought "hey, i know, we'll wear shit on our heads and go break people's doors". the obvious "then people will wear shit on their heads break your door" however got handwaved, because there's nothing specialer than a special snowflake.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is a police station for, other than l'attaque d'une bande cagoulee ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608079 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-17#511591 << https://archive.is/PtzJd
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 12:59 deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/frank-ants-and-mrs-stein/ << Trilema - Frank, ants and Mrs Stein.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-17 19:02 asciilifeform: 'some demented people in gulag during the years of the cult, for their amusement, would select women from the contigent of 'enemies of the people' and for 'some sin' sit them down upon anthills.' bottom: 'young women who refused to become lovers of their executioners in gulag would be sat upon anthills, tied to trees, 'for the mosquitoes and ants.' sometimes a pipe would be inserted, made from a reed or a birc
asciilifeform: and betcha chinese classics are rich in anthill literature.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/ED71EDF77E2516FF0FB0D23F807DD39572A584CCF8A083A376319B183334B400 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1764...1943 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (pyrrha.csisdmz.ul.ie. IE M LK)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/ED71EDF77E2516FF0FB0D23F807DD39572A584CCF8A083A376319B183334B400 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1422...9963 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (pyrrha.csisdmz.ul.ie. IE M LK)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608058 << hard part is not removing, but building new one as standalone proggy
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:29 davout: or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
asciilifeform: we had detailed thread re subj not so long ago
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608078 << i take it that fr police are not equipped with heavy machinegun like in usa ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 12:41 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is a police station for, other than l'attaque d'une bande cagoulee ?
asciilifeform: or just snoring on the job?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see you appreciate teh frank
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: quite so
mircea_popescu: when i die i'll be shown the list of everyone's favourite trilemas and spend the rest of the afterlife in shock.
mircea_popescu: and in shocking today, trump has ~madonna~ apologizing and complaining about "being taken out of context". fucking madonna.
mircea_popescu: this counts above fucking the woman, in my book.
mircea_popescu: so BingoBoingo here's a stray thought :
mircea_popescu: i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source.
mircea_popescu: the shedding of 500k federal jobs in dc is underway, by the way. people are making financial arrangements, such as getting out of mortgages.
mod6: <+davout> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct? << yup.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: similar thing happened under clinton, 'brac'
asciilifeform: result was, typically, mass migration into 'contract' sector.
asciilifeform: (rather than , as one could naively suppose ) starvation, or 'honest work'
mircea_popescu: economy was pretty strong under clinton by comparison.
asciilifeform: aha, left what to blow idiot 'dotcom' bubble with.
asciilifeform: and what to iraq with.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "The most notable public opposition came from Senate Armed Service Committee Chairman John McCain, who promised to block any such move. Senator McCains objections were primarily procedural and not substantive (i.e., he was upset he learned about the recommendation almost second-hand at the hearing, instead of by official channels)."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this re the nsa/cybercom split..?
asciilifeform: they are , as i understand it, going for the classical kgb/gru split.
asciilifeform: in hope of getting at least 1 functional piece.
mircea_popescu: more or less.
mircea_popescu: except of course they already got like 4 kgbs
mircea_popescu: none of which work in any practical sense.
asciilifeform: 16! apparently, by latest count.
asciilifeform: i shit thee not.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608062 << that looks like an ordinary unix diff << yup. and if you got an error when running vdiff, some of us have run into this on various linux boxes. iirc the solution was to install a newer version of gnu-awk.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: however many. the woman's barren owing to advanced age and abundant curetages in youth, there's nothing coming out her rotten eggs regardless.
asciilifeform: and this counts only ~official~ agencies (rather than, e.g., 'palantir')
asciilifeform sings, 'незримого фронта солдаты...'
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source. << ty
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: similar thing happened under clinton, 'brac' << BRAC took "Jobs in congressional districts" pissed off congress.
asciilifeform: http://www.vlf.it/smith1/opticalink.html << rare instance of useful, sane work published on www.
asciilifeform: also apparently you can (sorta) get these off the shelf, e.g., https://www.controlanything.com/Relay/Device/USBFOI
asciilifeform: in quite other lulz, http://archive.is/v8l8N >> 'The @AltNatParkSer account was quickly followed by dozens more. There are now at least 50 "unofficial" or "alternative" accounts purporting to represent the views of government staffers or agencies.
asciilifeform: Many of the accounts use the official logos of the departments they claim to represent, like the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, or various regional park services.'
asciilifeform: bureaucrat 'resistance'.
trinque: so much firing
trinque: he's going to have a blast
asciilifeform: archive.today under ddos?
asciilifeform: but in latest lulz, http://archive.is/8G35m >> 'O’Grady was mistakenly identified this week as a Secret Service agent (also named Kerry O’Grady) who is under investigation for posting a statement on Facebook that appeared to indicate she preferred jail over being shot and killed for President Trump.'
asciilifeform: 'Reached by phone Wednesday, O’Grady, 33, said she has struggled to plug the stream of hateful messages that have inundated her Twitter feed and Facebook page since Tuesday morning, leaving her “defeated and dejected.”'
asciilifeform: the sheer multilayer butthurt..
asciilifeform: and in a lulzy continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 >> in the fishwrap: http://archive.is/wnygX
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu is there a translation of http://trilema.com/2011/oul-morganatic/ ?
davout: mod6: ty, will try the gnu-awk thing
davout: asciilifeform: to me trb just has to provide "return txouts spendable by arbitrary set of addresses", "add this transaction to mempool"
davout: rest can go in external proggy
asciilifeform: davout: have you written this external proggy ?
asciilifeform: or is the plan to create (why???) a quite-useless castrato-trb.
davout: not yet
asciilifeform: 'i'ma snip out this cirrhotic liver and some time later i'll maybe find a new one' ?
davout: and just like vtrons, everyone should be able to write its own easily
asciilifeform: davout: we don't even have a suitable bignumatron yet
ben_vulpes: davout: trb cannot exist in a state where "user must supply code for x"
asciilifeform: (i would certainly not use a walletron based on openssl that DOES NOT PRE-DATE VALUABLEBTC forfuckssake)
asciilifeform: i'm with ben_vulpes . it's a motherfucking REFERENCE CLIENT
davout: asciilifeform: can use same openssl as trb
asciilifeform: which means 100% of necessary function to set up bitcoin on alpha centauri. no exceptions.
davout: i'm really not sold on this "has to be able to alpha centauri" requirement
asciilifeform: it's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of a reference client.
davout: it really depends on what you mean by "reference client"
asciilifeform: it means, first and foremost, WORKING bitcointron
ben_vulpes: davout: why would you even consider releasing a patch that leaves trb unable to cook and transmit transactions? keep it on your table where it's useful to you.
asciilifeform: and not 'working but you gotta go to some unspecified junkyard and glue a new liver for it out of ??? first'
davout: is it like the platinum "one meter" buried somewhere for "reference" or is it "the bitcoin implementation that is the reference because it's sane, it works, and can be used in production"
asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if davout proposed the cut ~in tandem with~ a standalone walletron. even if it were made entirely out of the old one.
trinque: ^ would be entirely reasonable
davout: asciilifeform: i never said this wasn't on the table
asciilifeform: davout: it defines ~what bitcoin is~
asciilifeform: in order to do this, it must WORK
davout: yeah, really not very hard to be in agreement here
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a pretty good imho description of the necessary cutting-apart of trb
asciilifeform: but to remove vital organs and replace them with 'promise to give new liver later!!!' is lunacy.
davout: but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
asciilifeform: davout: pretty much everyone tuned in has experienced firsthand the retardation of the old walletron.
davout: asciilifeform: i don't think you understand what i'm after, what i'm trying to get to is "sane and explicit knobs" instead of "here use this $magicfee"
asciilifeform: what are the knobs, davout , if you remove the wallet and offer no equivalent replacement ?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608173 << doubful that's in question; still working both sides of the cut at once will be instructive
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 18:53 davout: but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
asciilifeform: if , using your trb, i cannot transact ?
davout: i'm really not sure where this "no equivalent replacement" comes from
trinque: gotta define for example how cut-wallet keeps balance
asciilifeform: davout: you just said that you have not yet produced a replacement ?
davout: trinque: wallet has keys, asks for unspent outputs to bitcoin client, deduces balance
asciilifeform: tell me why a cut should be so much as considered for ten seconds without a ready, tested replacement.
davout: asciilifeform: there's a difference between "not yet" and "never"
trinque: asciilifeform: gotta define the cut to define the replacement
asciilifeform: why not also cut out mempool ? 'oh we'll make new one LATERZ!!!! PROMISE!'
trinque: you're getting ridiculous
asciilifeform: why not throw out all of bitcoin ? oh we'll make new one next year.
trinque: guy's entirely ready to discuss the thing
trinque: and you're making it out to be something he never argued
asciilifeform: snipping old wallet is a trivial patch, i suspect that any and each of trb folx could re-create it in half hour
trinque: this whole thead could've been "I will not sign the excision unless it brings also the replacement wallet" ... "k" ... fin
asciilifeform: trinque: that part is quite obvious and goes without saying
asciilifeform: but not only will i not sign such a thing, i question the sanity of anyone who would.
asciilifeform: prior to a replacement being ready.
trinque: I can't find davout saying he refused to provide such a thing in his patch
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 18:47 davout: not yet
thestringpuller: davout: wallet has keys, asks for unspent outputs to bitcoin << don't you have to be "watching" an address while indexing to get this info?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you want it in O(1) , yes
asciilifeform: otherwise you get it in O(N).
davout: thestringpuller: UTXO set is ~2gb tops, indexing might be nice but necessary to scan for UTXOs that match a given set of addresses, also the wallet part can cache them if that particular wallet is the only one able to actually spend those UTXIs
asciilifeform: i.e. half hour or so (and destined to linearly increase forever) per shot.
trinque: there was a decent thread on how 'wallet' end up being 'arbitrary declared index of declared addresses'
trinque: strike one declared
davout: trinque: text files with private keys sounds like the sane approach to me
trinque: were you going to interrogate the utxos every block or something?
asciilifeform: davout: if you're happy to wait for 30 min to an hour every time you unsheath the 'launch codes' -- then yes.
trinque: now I see what lacks definition here.
davout: asciilifeform: tbh i haven't measured it, but scanning 2gb of ram shouldn't really take that long
asciilifeform: davout: afaik we do not have this cache.
davout: also the UTXO set might very well decrease
asciilifeform: nor is there any promise from any god that it will stay below 2GB, or 20, or 20,000, it is doomed to increase
davout: asciilifeform: yeah well, if we're going to debate what "we don't have yet" we're not going to get very far
asciilifeform: now why would it decrease ?
asciilifeform: nao i'm curious
thestringpuller: is there a way to scrape the UTXO set in TRB or do you have to do that manually as of now?
davout: asciilifeform: take 20 UTXOs spend them in one go to a single address, poof! UTXO set has shrunk
asciilifeform: davout: this is theoretically possible. in practice it seems like the direct opposite happens ?
asciilifeform: infinite 'dust' fragging
davout: thestringpuller: you're asking me what trajectory i'm going to take at 200mph for that turn, i'm at the point where i'm still wondering how to turn the goddamn car on
asciilifeform: davout: my point was solely that a car sans-brakes is not a car
asciilifeform: but coffin on wheels.
davout: asciilifeform: a sane wallet would make it very easy to avoid dust fragmentation
asciilifeform: and should not turn on at all.
asciilifeform: davout: it would. but we haven't one yet.
thestringpuller: davout: no. I'm just curious if there is a way to scrape UTXO's now, cause for my wallet tron I'm scraping blocks themselves. Def not O(n). (don't laugh)
asciilifeform: and cutting out the old one , does not add up to even 0.1% of the work.
davout: asciilifeform: granted, is it ok with you if i give it a goddamn shot?
asciilifeform: give, give
asciilifeform: but it is strange to begin with removing old one.
asciilifeform: cut old liver ~when new one is sitting on the table, steaming, ready to transplant~
davout: asciilifeform: granted
asciilifeform: then i have nothing else to disagree with
davout: but appreciate that i'm a fucking noob and i need to have something to get started, at least with the toolchain, not that it has to make official release until it's actually done you know
davout: thestringpuller: i'm not sure what you mean by "scraping the UTXO" ?
thestringpuller: probing is more accurate a term
asciilifeform: davout: it is good, and healthy, to 'target practice' with the toolchain. but please try to clearly note this.
thestringpuller: i'm using the blockchain itself to get the UTXO for forming new transaction when creating raw TX with bitcoin, this requires searching teh blockchain or using ben_vulpes tool
thestringpuller: s/with bitcoin/with trb*
davout: asciilifeform: well for example, the "remove signmessage and verifymessage" patch could very well be considered ready for production, it cuts something, not something anyone sane would actually depend on
asciilifeform: i disagree that this would do any good.
davout: lighter trb?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: elaborate?
asciilifeform: while it is imho stupid to generate such signatures and rely on them for any practical use,
asciilifeform: there are historical signatures floating about, and one might wish to verify them
davout: thestringpuller: i see, currently it's really not practical
asciilifeform: using the routine that the author of said signature intended.
davout: asciilifeform: my emulated mp would answer that a dork that signed that way can't possibly sign something important
ben_vulpes: yeah, btc sigs are silly
asciilifeform: archaeology is not always about 'important' people.
trinque: I don't see that it'd be a terrible sin to have multiple branches descending from current trb
trinque: one of which strips the thing bare; another which is the reference
asciilifeform: trinque: trb already exists in multiple branches, such is the nature of vtronics.
ben_vulpes: perhaps a low-dough point: vpatches ensure that functionality will always be available, regardless of weight of "current" version
trinque: the former might help clear up the latter
davout: asciilifeform: archaeologists can build a verifymessage-capable trb, couldn't they?
trinque: asciilifeform: sure
asciilifeform: trinque: 1 per user, in fact.
thestringpuller: davout: that's why I think the UTXO probing is interesting. Easier to search ~2GB and ~100GB for the information you want.
trinque: I am aware of that, or what I said next would make no sense
davout: what version of gnu-awk are asciilifeform, trinque et al. using to have a usable vdiff.sh ?
asciilifeform: davout: yes, they could 'rebuild historical trb' but imho if this is a kind of thing that ever becomes necessary, trb will have failed in its continuity-preserving mission.
ben_vulpes: davout: GNU Awk 4.1.3, API: 1.1
trinque: asciilifeform: consider our conversation about the openbsd patches in another castle
davout: asciilifeform: the trb tree has a "continuity-preserving" mission, not "current trb official version"
asciilifeform: trinque: link plz?
ben_vulpes: davout: consider #!/bin/bash and set -e to make the thing die if any subprocesses return non-zero
trinque: asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema-mod6?d=2016-12-19#ca75f916-f2c1-46a7-b3ba-27b0ac6f3e26 << thereabouts
davout: asciilifeform: with this kind of reasoning we'd end up keeping the "accounting" feature around
davout: ben_vulpes: ty
trinque: I don't think it's a sin for davout to go slashing and cauterizing in one direction, meanwhile reference client proceeds in another
asciilifeform: davout: how's that follow?
trinque: and eventually there's a process of regrinding and so on
trinque: or his branch dies
asciilifeform: davout: can you draw a scenario where you might say 'now if only we had not thrown out idiot accounts...'
davout: asciilifeform: well, if you want to "keep everything" you end up keeping everything
asciilifeform: did i say 'everything' ?
asciilifeform: when ?
trinque: "nothing but this particular arrangement of driftwood counts as actual reference trb"
trinque: it does proceed that way
asciilifeform: i said this ?
asciilifeform: or somehow this was implied in my patches ? (where, note, i cut out entire useless subsystems, and shrank memory drain eightfold ?)
trinque: there are goals at odds here. to fix the nightmare that is current trb, gotta start slashing til you have something that's able to be comprehended
davout: asciilifeform: well, maybe for forensic purpose you want to open up an accounts-enabled legacy wallet? i don't know, sounds equally likely as "want to check signature some derp made in weird ways during ancient times"
asciilifeform: davout: didja ever read mircea_popescu's 'cut apart' piece ?
ben_vulpes: please no backwards compatibility holy shit
trinque: this ends up meaning slashing probably everything that doesn't keep the current network protocol running
asciilifeform: cutting-apart is a great thing.
asciilifeform: it means that -- yes -- if i need to , i can open an ancient wallet.
davout: and i really don't understand how keeping stuff around is sane when the functionality is an operator knob-turn away anyway
trinque: it'd probably be better to be hollering at a patch than all this
asciilifeform: davout: a walletron is pointedly ~not~ 'a knob turn away'
davout: maybe we can have trb-classic then trollface.jpg
davout: asciilifeform: we're talking about verifymessage and signmessage
asciilifeform: suppose i gotta verify the signature on a malformed tx.
asciilifeform: that enemy shoved in as attempt to exploit the node.
davout: if you ~must~ verify one of those sigs you pull up a trb that can ~fin~
davout: asciilifeform: you're conflating signatures on txes with signatures on arbitrary messages
davout: it's in the "bells and whistles" box, not the "hot wire functionality" one
asciilifeform: i get it, folx watched asciilifeform swing the axe, and it looked like great fun, nao everybody wants.
asciilifeform: but to lose functionality, however uncommonly needed, that does exactly 0 harm, and the loss of which reduces by no amount the labour of a trb code reader, is at best a snore.
asciilifeform: srsly davout , trinque , you would compare 'verifymessage' to winblowz #ifdef crapolade ?
asciilifeform: or to the orphanages ?
trinque: I don't think anyone brought his cock into the matter
davout: asciilifeform: no, was this comparison ever contemplated?
asciilifeform: this is not the first thread of this kind, either.
asciilifeform: and the last time, someone DID IN FACT SAY 'use python wallet'
asciilifeform: and i still have not forgiven.
ben_vulpes: heh who was that?
asciilifeform: and it is 99% of my rage, re 'lose the wallet'.
trinque: you gotta communicate more on-subj man; this is exasperating.
asciilifeform: the even faint implication that i ought to so much as consider heathen nontrb wallets.
trinque: guy was using the sign-message as an example for a smaller cut than the wallet
trinque: and now we're on the n-th conversation fork
asciilifeform: anyway who wants to do the 10 minutes of work to prepare a wallet snip, go ahead, just be aware that you will have to repeat most of said work by the time replacement wallet is a thing.
davout: asciilifeform: to me there is and remains a difference in kind between "the thing that defines what money is" and "the particulars of your personal wallet"
asciilifeform: davout: you do not get to say that a walletless bitcoin distribution succeeds in 'defining money'.
asciilifeform: it most assuredly does not.
asciilifeform: in fact, until we nailed down the dependencies all the way down to the kernel and gcc, it was possible to argue that trb does not define bitcoin.
davout: let's take an example
davout: the way i see things, the "fee estimation" code must die
davout: not "be moved in external proggy", it must. die.
asciilifeform: davout: this one, i agree with; mandate fee input on command line.
asciilifeform: the estimator is of 0 use.
asciilifeform: no one will miss it.
asciilifeform: excellent example of 'what to cut'
asciilifeform: and quite similar to the 'what is my ip' thing, which i shot.
davout: wallet tells you what coin you can spend, you select the particular outputs, you define the outputs, it may warn you if the implied fee is ridiculous but that's it
davout: asciilifeform: if trb provides sane endpoints the wallet can be written in whatever floats anyone's boat
asciilifeform: davout: provide sane endpoints. i promise to read patch, and test, and help.
ben_vulpes: i am still not sold on moving the wallet outside of what compiles as "trb"
asciilifeform: but UNTIL new wallet EXISTS, i for one will sign no snips.
davout: i'm not really sure whether transaction signature itself should stay in trb or be extracted out
davout: ben_vulpes: can compile as separate binaries
ben_vulpes: now /that/ i am sold on slicing from the node.
ben_vulpes: davout: what /currently/ compiles as the single binary "trb"
asciilifeform: davout, ben_vulpes : signatron belongs in a copper box with tiny hole drilled for one fiber.
trinque: does sbcl also not only have to be able to interpret / compile common lisp; it must also provide a UI for you to generate statements in it?
asciilifeform: and own battery.
asciilifeform: trinque: sbcl is not a reference-implementation of anything.
ben_vulpes: i don't see the benefits to the increase of binary compilation targets to 3 from the one extant.
asciilifeform: (afaik no such thing ever existed for common lisp, because it was a sanely-defined -- i.e. paper -- standard.)
ben_vulpes: 2, where one signs, perhaps.
trinque: for someone with such unwieldy metaphors, allow me that one. whether it was an RI was not my point
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: crypto code belongs on separate box.
davout: ben_vulpes: but even if separate binary i see this more as a "reference wallet" in the same way the "reference miner" demonstrates what a miner does, but isn't actually used by anyone professionnally issuing transactions
ben_vulpes: davout: reference miner is still in trb bin.
trinque: nothing helps me generate a valid lisp statement for sbcl other than I pop one in
trinque: from arse
trinque: and it tells me "fuck you" or "yum"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i am all for moving the miner to own binary. BUT you would then have to test it and somehow demonstrate that it in fact behaves IDENTICALLY to the original
trinque: it doesn't have miles of hair just in case you wanted help writing a loop, or ...
asciilifeform: grandfather's pistol.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no argument, but i do not see the point of moving output indexer into a separate bin given that it needs a live blockchain anyways.
davout: ben_vulpes: yeh, not that the miner-snipping doesn't itch
ben_vulpes: davout: there are many parts of a kalash that are not strictly ergonomic.
asciilifeform: what i would like to do in this thread, is to ask folx to stop and think for half a minute about what differentiates trb from prb.
trinque: look man, your condescension switch is jammed on.
davout: asciilifeform: trb is about keeping the core, prb is about "moar featurez"
trinque: must be right next to the "fork topic" button
asciilifeform: also i admit to a deep curiosity, the folx itching to dump the wallet without offering a new one, what the hell are you lot transacting WITH ?
trinque: the wallet does in no way define the operation of the protcol or validating blocks
asciilifeform: prb ?
trinque: "are you secret wreckers" ?
asciilifeform: what do you intend to use ? you want to put #ifdefs in for the wallet ?
trinque: the wallet merely generates inputs trb will validate or not independently of it
asciilifeform: i asked very specific question. say davout makes a wallet-less trb. and for some reason we all embrace it and roll it into each his own personal vtree.
asciilifeform: what the fuck to transact with , then ?
asciilifeform: hand calculator ? abacus ?
trinque: the guy already said ok to shipping a txn maker with the patch!!
asciilifeform: that'd be a tremendously useful thing.
davout: asciilifeform: i have no particular interest in indulging strawmen
asciilifeform: remove-old-liver-then-immediately-install-new -- a-ok.
asciilifeform: remove-old-liver-then-go-stroll-around-liverless -- not.
ben_vulpes: phf: may i have a copy of your log backups?
ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
asciilifeform: !~seen phf
jhvh1: asciilifeform: phf was last seen in #trilema 1 day, 22 hours, 3 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <phf> so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one
asciilifeform: prolly out in meatspace.
asciilifeform: far from a console.
ben_vulpes: or or or
asciilifeform: or killed by martians.
ben_vulpes: unless i misremember, the man is in the habit of at least mentioning prolonged absences.
ben_vulpes: which, subject to opsec constraints, is a fine thing to do.
asciilifeform: iirc he vanished for 2wks once (turned out it was to bury some kin)
ben_vulpes: was this before or after taking responsibility for critical infrastructure?
asciilifeform: before, i think.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: Framedragger oughta have same l0gz, let's ask him.
asciilifeform: Framedragger, can haz l0gz tarball ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i can scrape btcbase as well as the next feller.
asciilifeform: no, iirc he has proper db
asciilifeform: not a scrape
ben_vulpes: is it not bouncer logs -> html transform?
Framedragger: false, no db. just bouncer logs
Framedragger: no db thus far, anyway
ben_vulpes: as i recalled.
Framedragger: nothing pretty. if any use, could give tarball of bouncer logs
ben_vulpes: i *have* put some thought into this project, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: all i've got is (about 98% uptime) plain text l0gz.
Framedragger: bouncer is actually quite nice, as phf said; that's what he had before, he wanted db for xrefs etc
ben_vulpes: yes well i may as well just scrape btcbase at that point asciilifeform
Framedragger: (if you make sure it autoreconnects, etc)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yeah, unless you're trying to bridge a specific and small gap, mine probably won't be of any use
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no, i'm ready to eat the whole wad.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes's logtron is neato btw
asciilifeform: my only nitpick is the colours, and i don't even know if it is my display calibrarion, or eyes, that balk.
ben_vulpes: stylesheets welcome, btw.
ben_vulpes: davout: ^^
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: try green in place of red, if you feel like playing with it
asciilifeform: 0x00FF00 green.
ben_vulpes: comme ca?
asciilifeform: eh it's your box, use what colours you like.
ben_vulpes: nono, as in go look at it now
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i meant, whole thing
ben_vulpes: oh fucking highlight
asciilifeform is fond of old-fashioned green crt terminals
Framedragger: (i personally like the pink highlight, it's immediately noticeable but still readable)
asciilifeform: if i were writing logtron, i'd go for green text , and names inverted (black on green) letters.
asciilifeform: in fixed width letters.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yeah pure primary green, crt, i figued! hah
ben_vulpes: i have very little appetite for futzing with css.
asciilifeform does not know, from memory, how to make this
ben_vulpes: am wasting time fixing the wp comment threading shitshow already.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you got considerably farther than i did, in re mp-wp
ben_vulpes: this is not an honourable feat.
ben_vulpes: but the use of a friend's backhoe to put in a septic system to replace the outhouse.
asciilifeform: imho anything involving php is still outhouse. (albeit some outhouses are a step ahead of others, what with stone plinths and toilet paper roll holder, instead of earthen pit)
ben_vulpes: sure, whatever. geotherm heated seat even.
ben_vulpes: fact of the matter is that wp 2.7 does ~everything a person needs from a personal cms afaict.
ben_vulpes: except of course threaded comments, and this and that and the other thing.
trinque: anything touching the web is an outhouse
trinque: be ready to fill with dirt and dig another, and everything will be fine
ben_vulpes: outhouses and trenchfoot. that's webdev!
Framedragger: i'm still preferring http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-15#1503181 but granted, don't have a working "moderated but without captcha" comments solution. best i can think of is, write very light backend service to handle comment post requests, store them somewhere sensible, allow operator to accept/deny comments (could be flat text files)
a111: Logged on 2016-07-15 10:31 Framedragger: regarding LAMP stacks and blog software: static site generators are there for a reason. significantly smaller codebases and attack surfaces cf. wordpress. just sayin'.
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: you missed the good old days when i exported raw html from an org file
Framedragger: ahh, sounds sexy :)
ben_vulpes: not at all
ben_vulpes: eventually grew to over sixty seconds per export run.
Framedragger: well, no middleman nonsense at least, then
Framedragger: why's that bad? i understand if the 'time it takes to render' function is exponential in some way or another, but if linear growth and less than say 30 min - what of it, really
ben_vulpes: and i wanted comments, but did not want to bake myself further into an ossified tower of software retardation.
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: because it is wholly unacceptable that i not be able to see the effects of changing one tag in the source files immediately.
Framedragger: that does break the 'change, see immediate effects' loop, hm.
ben_vulpes: remind me why we use computers again?
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: for all of the time i have spent losing my mind in radioactive webtech mines i a) do not like the domain b) have zero desire to build half-baked solutions when ~fully baked ones exist
Framedragger: re. a), i totally hear ya. i mean, who does. re. b), yes i can see that.
ben_vulpes: logs and search will at the least provide interesting lessons in postgres design and optimization. writing my own disqus, not so much.
Framedragger: on the other hand, i could see the latter being *really* useful for many. granted, neither you or me are altruists.
ben_vulpes: it's not even an altruism thing, it's a "do you serve a churning vat of cockroaches or kings with names"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: on the "oh noes apple broke more shit" thread, not only do pageup/down not work, but apple's own messenger wastes all the CPU that "Slack" left on the table
ben_vulpes: it's GREAT
ben_vulpes: make macs great again
ben_vulpes: install openbsd on them
trinque: jobs may have actually killed someone with his hands if he saw the "o look mother I put the apple watch inside the mac"
mod6: <+davout> mod6: ty, will try the gnu-awk thing << ok, gl. let us know how it goes. i've had this issue before myself. i ~think~ that's what I did to resolve it on my african box.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pgup/pgdown work on the box i have here
asciilifeform: home/end -- do not
asciilifeform: there's gotta be a patch, somewhere.
asciilifeform: even for winblows there are patches.
mircea_popescu: o hai
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform notrly. isn't it more fearsome in $trangelang ?
asciilifeform: waiwat is
asciilifeform: aaah the egg
asciilifeform: imho it was nifty and ought to appear in other langs.
asciilifeform: incl. pygmistani.
mircea_popescu: tough as nails to translate though
mircea_popescu: it's very heavily formalistic.
asciilifeform can picture.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608137 << who the everloving would shoot the dumb fuck. nobody can be bothered to even shoot IN her, let alone at her.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 18:04 asciilifeform: but in latest lulz, http://archive.is/8G35m >> 'O’Grady was mistakenly identified this week as a Secret Service agent (also named Kerry O’Grady) who is under investigation for posting a statement on Facebook that appeared to indicate she preferred jail over being shot and killed for President Trump.'
mircea_popescu: this #1 disease of the failed female, "if i were your wife i'd poison your coffee."
mircea_popescu: bitch, you're nobody's wife and there's a reason for that.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608165 << it's the right process. if you aim to cut function out, first separate it, then produce replacement. modularize, as it were.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 18:51 asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if davout proposed the cut ~in tandem with~ a standalone walletron. even if it were made entirely out of the old one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's pretty well demarcated. grep -i -r wallet *
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but there's no clean way currently for me to replace old-wallet with davout-wallet. so in that sense, modularize the wallet out of the code.
asciilifeform: in point of fact if trb knew how to eat raw tx, you have the knob, neh?
ben_vulpes: "tcp inject"!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: requiring faraday cage microcontroller tx gen box to speak whole bitcoin protocol, is imho nuttery
asciilifeform: not to mention asking it to have a nic
asciilifeform: with which to tcp
asciilifeform: unidirectional fiber light plox.
ben_vulpes: i see it
asciilifeform: btw i found toslink modules for ~35 cents ea.
ben_vulpes: wait no i don't, why is tx-gen box to be offlined and not the signing box?
mircea_popescu: they're not expensive.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes recall the cut article ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'gen' meant as signer also
ben_vulpes: i shall reread aaaagain
asciilifeform: as per mircea_popescu 's sketch
ben_vulpes: "coinbases" in this post means something rather different from what i've come to know them as eg the block subsidy
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all coins are the same thing.
ben_vulpes: let us sweep the floor then, and settle the semantics. "unspent transaction out" is now "coinbase" according to mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608204 << this brings back an ancient discussion re the most likely failure mode of bitcoin. technically speaking there's 2.1 quadrillion coins which may in principle move independently, worth ~100 bytes each.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:00 davout: thestringpuller: UTXO set is ~2gb tops, indexing might be nice but necessary to scan for UTXOs that match a given set of addresses, also the wallet part can cache them if that particular wallet is the only one able to actually spend those UTXIs
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes an "uxto" discusses an aspect of a coinbase.
ben_vulpes: i am under the impression that a coinbase would not need to be injected, but that the individual utxos do need to be.
mircea_popescu: all coins, in the sense of agglomerations of satoshi, exist as descendents of an original block subsidy, and in that sense ARE coinbases ; much like electrons or photons are wave functions. they manifest verifiably in certain points, as "unspent transaction outputs" ; muych like waveform collapses. they interact with matter, in certain ways,this is called a transaction.
mircea_popescu: now this ontological preoccupation is of no great practical importance, which is why people don't generally gas past "hey it's an uxto"
mircea_popescu: much like nobody seriously bothers to say "the wavefunction that is office chair"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand it, a defragging tx weighs exactly same as fragging tx , though
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the defragging is an antientalpy movement.
mircea_popescu: technically speaking sticking people back into their mother's cunts to get two people out of a litter of 12 also costs the same.
mircea_popescu: it's just not done in practice is all.
asciilifeform: but why in this case is it so, if defrag tx takes up no moar space than the original fragging tx
mircea_popescu: as time wears on, more and more tinier and tinier bits of coin carry irreducible meaning, and can't be defragged
asciilifeform: why they cannot be defragged ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think of evolution of holy roman empire. currently, block of thousand btc all carry the same meaning, "we belong to holy roman emperor".
mircea_popescu: three generations later, all of saxony is 500 duchies, princely domains etc the size of your yard.
mircea_popescu: defrag, how ? force of arms, maybe.
asciilifeform: then comes hitler and glues all back together,
mircea_popescu: kinda what bitcoin doesn't want though.
mircea_popescu: from the pov of the network, glueing together is technically speaking a loss.
mircea_popescu: of "value" in a very novel, post-bitcoin, deeply information-theoretic interpretation of the term.
asciilifeform: how is '1 satoshi per cockroach' an improvement vs '10 lords with 10'000 btc ea.' .
mircea_popescu: more information.
mircea_popescu: hence more utility.
asciilifeform: noise, not info.
mircea_popescu: this is the definition of racism.
asciilifeform: whothefuck cares about roaches.
mircea_popescu: tell you what, to the stupid cunts getting pregnant at 13 and failing to learn how to wash or twerk by 16, the little details of their dirty interiors are relevant.
asciilifeform: they can use pieces of eight, dubloons, rubles.
mircea_popescu: yes, but as they progress so does the bitcoin fragment.
asciilifeform: incidentally what does a tx to consolidate N addrs having 1 satoshi each, weigh, in terms of N
mircea_popescu: anyway. war in this sense, as in napoleon invading, is a loss of information. ie, library burning.
asciilifeform: noshit space in O(N)
asciilifeform: but i'd like an actual byte constant per.
mircea_popescu: did i misunderstand teh q ?
mircea_popescu: ah about 96-128 or so
asciilifeform: so we can say how many can live in a block.
mircea_popescu: depends on factors and things but as degree of magnitude it's there.
mircea_popescu: so yes, if we aim to go from "all coinbases = 1 satoshi" through merger to "all coinbases = 2 satoshi" we're looking at a whole shitload of blocks.
asciilifeform: so at max fragocalypse, one might have situation where to move 100 satoshi, occupies a block
mircea_popescu: this is the only part of the system that's truly badly designed. the node/miner thing, meh, that's iffy.
mircea_popescu: but this one ... well, the numbers actually don't work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a block is a mb. 10k satoshi.
asciilifeform: aah yea
mircea_popescu: note that the per-block value is liable to stay ~constant ; it certainly varies less than the price of bitcoin for instance. so those satoshi will always be worth a lot in fiat terms anyway
mircea_popescu: anyway, the issue of fees hopefully limits the smallest practical unit to maybe 1k or so, which blessfully shaves 3 zeros from the problem, and at the right end
asciilifeform: in same respect, it would likely cost quite a bit to collect gold contacts from every old cpu in every junkyard.
mircea_popescu: it still doesn't solve it thought
asciilifeform: but notice, folx do collect the gold. it is +ev.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gold is worthless for the exact reason goldbugs/idiots think it better than bitcoin. no scaling, because anchored to irrelevancy
davout: seems to me like defragging could be a thing given the correct tools
asciilifeform: going strictly on industrial gold for this example
mircea_popescu: davout not really a problem of tools.
asciilifeform: (incidentally, though unanswerable, would be interestig to learn what the purely industrial worth of gold would be.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ~0, oversupplied.
mircea_popescu: neodymium worth moar.
davout: i make pretty much all of my txes by hand and fragmentation is something i try to avoid as much as possibru
davout: and in this regard, doing-by-hand certainly has value, in the sense that i don't end up with dust
mircea_popescu: davout the problem discussed is where the most serene republic spans 85 million stars and a trillion planets and everyone involved holds a few satoshi and ten thousand times more slaves.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not really oversupplied, there are quite a few unplated contacts in use.
davout: and whenever i do i manage to glue it to sane txen in order for it not to be dust anymore
asciilifeform: if alchemy tomorrow -- would all get plated in au.
davout: mircea_popescu: i can see that too, not much that can be done though
asciilifeform: consider the discovery of electrolytic aluminum refining.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is like thinking if universities stopped stupidifying girls tomorrow you'd get good service at the diner.
mircea_popescu: i tried this ; it doth not work irl.
mircea_popescu: davout the thing that SHOULD be done about it is make it work in such a way it doesn't choke in its own fumes. not that i know how to do that.
asciilifeform: happened, for good or ill, with cpu cycles ('why the fuck there is a computer in my flashlight' thread), plastics, LED, etc.
mircea_popescu: (and such not knowing is a large part of what moderates any interest i might have in greenlighting i-b work_
asciilifeform: cheapola -> folx find 10,001 uses.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did i tell you about the led crotchless "underwear" ?
mircea_popescu: it's actually pretty cool ; can't possibly miss even in the dark. also cunt looks good in it.
davout: mircea_popescu: what's i-b ?
asciilifeform: does it use gurljuice for battery electrolyte?
mircea_popescu: davout ideal bitcoin. a putative v2.0 / replacement / fork.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, all the ones i've seen use normal 1.5v watch battery.
asciilifeform: aah like the electroluminescent shirts.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had a thread a while back re 'fragless' coins
mircea_popescu: a coupla, yeah.
asciilifeform: but i can't seem to turn it up
a111: Logged on 2016-08-31 18:02 mircea_popescu: until the coinbase halves, you can only use 50 btc ; then 25 and 12.5 etc.
mircea_popescu: still, none of this solves the fundamental problem, which is : as more and more people get involved, the cost of reporting each transaction to everyone else balloons.
mircea_popescu: yes, property is functionally as well as fundamentally "this is mine which means it's not yours nor yours nor yours nor - i see you there hiding in the back, yours either!"
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, once the headcount crosses millions into billiosn, well... forgetaboutit.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-05 18:53 asciilifeform: ditto address-generation from mining.
davout: ben_vulpes: how?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: picture 'coins as planets, discovered planet? you have a coin' approx.
mircea_popescu: that;s more or less how it works now.
ben_vulpes: i never successfully worked through how transacting would work
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: same as now.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'planet x, provably mine, now belongs to ben_vulpes ', signed, asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: is there some amount of "mine for privkey" involved?
ben_vulpes: in addition to "mine for subsidy"?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not necessarily.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as gedankenexperiment, imagine if we went 'primes above 1000^10000 are now coins'
asciilifeform: then if you find one, you nail it down by claiming , signed,
mircea_popescu: this is an old and afaik failed experiment
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is impractical to make as drawn here.
asciilifeform: so could not have failed.
asciilifeform: the necessity mathematical object was not afaik ever discovered.
ben_vulpes: "address-generation from mining" literally does not compute for me unless there's some amount of "pubkey hash must meet this criteria" a la bitcoin
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608249 << i honestly don't see the problem with taking out the bitcoin signature idiocy.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:10 asciilifeform: there are historical signatures floating about, and one might wish to verify them
mircea_popescu: in my extensive practice as a major economic agent i never either wanted to or did bother to verify one.
asciilifeform: in my extensive practice as an absolute nobody -- i also did not. but supposed that someone -- could.
mircea_popescu: so that someone could go hang.
mircea_popescu: "signatures" has as much business being part of bitcoin as sink has being part of car.
mircea_popescu: tyvm, but no.
asciilifeform: no golden toilet either?!
ben_vulpes: heat flux through butt on gold toilet turns out -- not pleasant
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: panda fur gasket on there for a reason!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how do you square this "someone mighta" with "nothing for allcomers", and in particular "a specific thing for nobody"?
mircea_popescu: i think he was just being contrarian, isn't seriously holding the position.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: existing code is privileged omfg what part of this is hard to grasp
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap and welcome cut, reduces the codebase, that and the idiotic "alert messages" are certainly next to snip
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what alert messags
mircea_popescu: the thing gavin thought constitutes the basis of his importance.
asciilifeform: i killed those right after baking the genesis
mircea_popescu: omfg the original code is priviledged what part of this is hard to grasp!!1
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you mind ? i'm having a quality moment here with the alf.
ben_vulpes: i excised my humor subsystems last year
asciilifeform: iirc there was a mircea_popescu parable where someone attaches a parasite to a wife and somebody else objects to removing, because 'how do you know where it ends and other it begins'
asciilifeform: or mebbe i dreamed it.
mircea_popescu: well there is that but nevertheless, guy said plainly he's noob tring to learn.
asciilifeform: therr is a whole dream-trilema that asciilifeform sometimes reads in sleep.
mircea_popescu: this is exactly how that goes.
asciilifeform brb, teatime
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608633 <<< o noes, mebbe someone important we never heard about had something important to alert about
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 22:17 asciilifeform: i killed those right after baking the genesis
davout could not resist.
ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-178 << asciilifeform responded, also comments properly threaded nao
mircea_popescu: i gotta see this wonder, ch display possibly one of the more atrocious
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dawg you aware your articles go in this 160px column ?
ben_vulpes: thanks mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: patches welcome
mircea_popescu: no see, that's the problem
mircea_popescu: it's already the size of a patch
ben_vulpes: which browser
mircea_popescu: if i were a pirate i couldn't read it altogether.
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/gaze-upon-their-works-ye-mighty-and-tremble << CH - Gaze upon their works, ye mighty, and tremble
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that's not a browser
mircea_popescu: unexpected objection...
ben_vulpes: i will not defensively css against the width at which archive.is renders websites
mircea_popescu: try browsershots or something ?
ben_vulpes: There were already 188 screenshot requests for cascadianhacker.com today.
ben_vulpes: Please create a user account for more screenshot quota.
mircea_popescu: went south did it ?
ben_vulpes: > click here for previous ...
ben_vulpes: > 404
ben_vulpes: this is so cool!
mircea_popescu: used to be cool, thbat thing
mircea_popescu: Browser shots Sorry service is down for maintanence << dude they're not even trying anymore, the web's deader than shannen doherty's career
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:12 ben_vulpes: perhaps a low-dough point: vpatches ensure that functionality will always be available, regardless of weight of "current" version
ben_vulpes: i didn't know anyone browsed the web with browsers anyways, i thought the en vogue thing to do was just to read the source and sort of intuit where the boxes went
ben_vulpes: guessing at definitions from context, but with all the excitement of html css and js
ben_vulpes beer, meat, carbs
mircea_popescu: i thought you wrote all this shit on a touchpad anyway.
ben_vulpes: with my dong
ben_vulpes: highly prehensile, or prezhensile as the tenderqueers would say
mircea_popescu: holy shit two hours of this nonsense
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why the fuck are you so obstructive anyway
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because if folx must ruin bitcoin via discontinuity ('you can always dig up historical code laters'), non-exhaustive pseudo-reference implementations, etc. i'd rather they understood what they were doing.
asciilifeform: burn down your house ~deliberately~, if you must, not by playing with matches as 3 y.o.
mircea_popescu: in the time everyone spent arguing with various phantoms they could have actually done all the work that was therein contemplated.
mircea_popescu: this can't continue.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: implementing sane wallet is easily a man-year.
mircea_popescu: the two items discussed were "modularize wallet" and "remove btc address signatures". they're in the 2-5 hour range for a very careful single engineer.
asciilifeform: signature is 5min work yes.
asciilifeform: 'modularize wallet' is a man-year.
asciilifeform: btw since folx are itchy to snippety-snip, i will note, there is actual dead code in trb
asciilifeform: take gnu profiler, run, you will find it
asciilifeform: (i am speaking strictly of provably-unreachable routines. there are others that could be snipped, with some work, without affecting semantics)
asciilifeform: for the most part, asciilifeform did not touch any of this code. reasoning was, that it is part of the historic record.
asciilifeform: killing gavin's remote backdoor is not comparable, it was a necessary part of 'first do no harm'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at issue is your very poor (through being inflexible) best scenario/worst scenario context switching. so : it is the habit of engineers to consider the worst scenario when building a house, which is how houses end up 3.5x structurally stronger than thyey need to be. because holy hell, what if rocks fall or the ground moves or there's very wet snow or some idiot gets confused and parks his car on your roof. howev
mircea_popescu: er, when discussing things people do, especially their plans, a best scenario is to be employed, becuause people aren't fucking amelia bedelia and if they are we want to find out.
mircea_popescu: it's safe to assume he's not about to do something stupiud in all the places it's not exhaustively clear what he actually means to do. and if he does do something stupid all the better, we get to laugh at him later.
asciilifeform: a reasonable house has 7+x over-strength.
mircea_popescu: people aren't objects and vice versa, you gotta context switch.
asciilifeform: bridge -- 20.
mircea_popescu: everything in the us is 2.2 these days. but whatever the actual value might be.
asciilifeform: but to rewind: i do not object to davout mutilating his own personal trb however he likes. however i do object to calling a trb-minus-any-wallet a 'reference implementation'.
asciilifeform: ditto trb-minus-any-miner.
asciilifeform: ditto trb-minus-mempool.
mircea_popescu: cross that bridge when you get to it.
mircea_popescu: do you have any fucking idea how many bridges we crossed when we got to them to get here ?
mircea_popescu: read my fucking lips : ALL OF THEM.
asciilifeform: my objection is not 'davout Broke Trb oh noez!!' but to the thought process that might lead an otherwise literate d00d to contemplate a 'reference' that lacks vital organs as a valid thing
asciilifeform: because clearly our priors diverged somewhere
asciilifeform: and i would like to know ~where~.
mircea_popescu: i don't see that happened.
asciilifeform: perhaps it did not.
asciilifeform: but i would like to know, if it had.
mircea_popescu: well you didn't ask, either, did you.
asciilifeform: iirc jurov , for instance, specifically said 'hey you can go and use this python wallet'
asciilifeform: and my jaw dropped
asciilifeform: (this was in the last thread re subj, a while back)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you remember the old leaden church roofs ?
asciilifeform: (did we do this thread..?)
mircea_popescu: iirc he said he used it without trouble.
asciilifeform: this proves nothing.
asciilifeform: heartbleed also sat 'without trouble'.
asciilifeform: al schwartz wrote about the roofs, iirc it was. semiconductor firms replaced cathedral roofs all over europe, for 0 cost. just to get the valuable pre-hiroshima metal.
asciilifeform: ditto firms lifting old, ww1, ww2 battleships.
mircea_popescu: yes yes, proves nothing, so what if it doesn't.
asciilifeform: pre-2012 bitcoin code is a thing.
asciilifeform: like pre-hiroshima Pb.
mircea_popescu: it'll still give you saturnism.
asciilifeform: it is , largely, why we have v. because every line of post-2012, bitcoin-touching, code, is guilty-until-proven-innocent of plotting to steal.
asciilifeform: and the only countermeasure is to keep the changes to grandfather's pistol, minimal, reviewable, 'fits in head.' and to retain old mechanisms when practical.
asciilifeform: and if abandoning this -- may as well replace whole shebang.
asciilifeform: i thought this was basic.
mircea_popescu: there is some merit to this view. not as much as you imagine though. gavin was there, in 2012, and giving "talks" to the nsa, in 2011, and wondering out loud if that's certainly not why satoshi stopped talking to him.
asciilifeform: for all i know, nsa was there on day 1.
asciilifeform: but bitcoin was ~worthless.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> make macs great again <+ben_vulpes> install openbsd on them << :D
asciilifeform: so it is not that nsa was absent, no. it is the theft incentive, that was.
asciilifeform: no one knew that the thing would take off.
mircea_popescu: perhaps your understanding of incentive is not so strictly correct. pedophile who primes 9yo girl is not necessarily wrong in evaluating her sexual value a few years before it customarily becoems apparent.
mircea_popescu: and plenty of people knew it would take off, which is how we're here.
asciilifeform: even if pedo did not groom this gurl from birth, there is still ~bottomless well of bugs in openssl, boost, linux, etc.
asciilifeform: which is why the clock on replacing trb, does run.
asciilifeform: fwiw i do not hold to 'trb 4evah!'
asciilifeform: and in fact recall, i asked for trb, because i wanted The B00k
mircea_popescu: now, this excursion in unrelated scary things complete, let's get back to it : give people the benefit of the doubt. if they fuck it up it's their problem not yours.
asciilifeform: again, if davout breaks his trb, and signs off on a b0rk3d proggy, it does not 'pick my pocket or break my leg', mine will still work.
asciilifeform: disagreement was wholly philosophical.
ben_vulpes: moreover there is no harm in bringing a patch for discussion, and all of this durm and strang will discourage "patches alf doesn't like" even if just in the patcher's mind
asciilifeform: i should hope that no one is discouraged from writing patch just because i barfed.
asciilifeform: but forum exists partly to put on record, when we barf, why.
asciilifeform: so that no one can later say 'oh so sad, reactor melted, but i had nfi, asciilifeform never barfed.'
mircea_popescu: consider the fine case of mod6 's vtron since he said something. so he built a vtron, then later we decided didn't like how it works, he put the time in to understand the thing, fix it... all this happened because he made the first one ; and wouldn't have happened if we were just sitting 6months ago holding dicks and discussing it theoretically.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he certainly spared asciilifeform from the chore of maintaining full vtron
asciilifeform: and i take off my hat, for this.
mircea_popescu: it's always way the fuck better to say "i don't like what you did because" than to say "i don't like what i think it might be the case you say you intend to do because".
mircea_popescu: there's no need for that tight coupling of intent anyway, not like we're trying to drive through an intersection here.
asciilifeform: there is ~some~ win from ~some~ coupling, on account of the longest-chain/regrind thing
asciilifeform: but sure.
mircea_popescu: the regrinding is not a loss.
mircea_popescu: i think you book it as a loss, but it is a gain.
mircea_popescu: the more time people spend ~actually reading~ the same piece of code, the better. "i might have read it so it's as good as read" open source bs doesn't qualify here.
asciilifeform can see mircea_popescu's picture
asciilifeform: however it is not automatically given that by forcing folx to regrind, you make them attentively read
mircea_popescu: piece of code A which has been read 8 times by 5 peoiple is thereby better, no questions, more valuable and more useful, than the SAME EXACT piece of code A read by its author alone.
asciilifeform: it is ultimately an act of will.
mircea_popescu: nobody's forcing anyone, they just get gently encouraged.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: supposing they ~read~ it, and not merely ~read enough to overcome the regrind barrier~
mircea_popescu: at some point the pile of chain overweighs the disinclination to read code.
asciilifeform: fwiw i frequently curl up in bed with the thing. and read. until fall asleep.
mircea_popescu: and then dream about reading trilema in aramaic
asciilifeform: aramaic trilema is spiffy, recommended to all.
mircea_popescu: gotta translate some pieces for us sometime :)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: comment answrd.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:27 davout: the way i see things, the "fee estimation" code must die
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-182
ben_vulpes: aaaand we've exhausted the wp stack :D
ben_vulpes: everything must be free, including 401k contributions BUT NOT SPEECH
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i read the linked piece, did not see 'free' ?
ben_vulpes: no, i kid.
asciilifeform: chumps still gotta drop in moneys, neh
asciilifeform: for it to fill.
ben_vulpes: on the other hand "b-b-b-but not real retirement plan because no employer match!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608353 << it'll very likely stay there forever, for the simple reason that a bitcoin miner that's proper is worth money so can't be given away for free, and if it's going to be improper then alf's 2012 argument prevails and just keep the old one.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:32 ben_vulpes: davout: reference miner is still in trb bin.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it remains every bit as chumpatronic even if employer matches 1000%
asciilifeform: or if obummer personally fellates you every time you put a hundy in
ben_vulpes: no argument
ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-183 << but exponded upon nevertheless
mircea_popescu: whole family is fugly wtf. better visuals.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes expounded.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: a rare typo
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'must bite hook, to get the free worm' ?
ben_vulpes: you f'r instance can't seem to get colander right
asciilifeform: i dun see this 'must'.
ben_vulpes: if you accept the thesis, it ain't a hook it's a free meal.
asciilifeform: but why would you accept it
ben_vulpes: because dipshit sarariman
asciilifeform: fish -- yes, has brain the size of your little finger nail,
asciilifeform: accepts hook worm.
ben_vulpes: dipshit sarariman idem.
asciilifeform: but you are not a fish.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608382 << o wow ? i thought there was a protocol for this and everything
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:49 ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
mircea_popescu is behind teh times
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: make no mistakes, i bite zero hooks myself
mircea_popescu: i thought you were married.
mircea_popescu: you bit that one eh :D
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'Colt'45 Retirement Savings Co.' ftw.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "sepsis and wagner"
ben_vulpes: "being of sound mind and body, i'm spending my money as fast as i can"
asciilifeform: i'll go with the classic cyanide&wagner, tyvm
mircea_popescu: isn't lotta cocaine way better ?
asciilifeform: cocacyanide!1111 'совместить приятное с полезным'
asciilifeform: (is there engl. idiom version of that?)
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i dun see the hook, have staff on call 24/7. no harem, granted, but "ride or die bitch" worth a million hausfraus.
mircea_popescu: buy : 1 month rent in slum ; 1 typewriter ; 1 stack of paper ; 1 sugar bowl, fill with pure cocaine ; 1 medium dildo.
mircea_popescu: use the dust for lube, write your life's novel / memoirs / whatever.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: burroughs!
mircea_popescu: should take < 1 week.
mircea_popescu: m0ore or less ya
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes isn't that what the fish said ?
ben_vulpes: now, mosquito perhaps more accurate.
ben_vulpes: gut flora maybe
ben_vulpes: or good old fashioned frontier bride, why all the haet
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'm not proposing your life choices are invalid. i am saying the form of the argument is broken. it's easy to pretend like you know better than fish while not being fish. in point of fact fish does as best he can
mircea_popescu: (you're invited to go fishing, discover fish will eat your bait and not bite)
asciilifeform: even if you only ever kept a mousetrap, you will learn this.
mircea_popescu: did i recount the famous episode of my mother fishing btw ?
asciilifeform: mice are astonishingly adept at 'free' cheese-getting.
asciilifeform: the last time i 'worked with' mice, i was quite convinced that they ~knew~ what is a mousetrap. and had 'sappers'.
asciilifeform: rats, at the very least, ~have~ sappers.
asciilifeform: designated expendables.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608394 << oh right, maybe it was then. ben_vulpes didja dig it up from log ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:55 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: Framedragger oughta have same l0gz, let's ask him.
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure he published a log backup url somewhere.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: perhaps under explained in "if you accept the thesis" where <thesis> is entire stack of usgola. yes, 401kholder seeks to eat cheese, turn around put money into house do all the clever tricks with it. also many don't! and many like myself look at the whole thing as a stupid intellectual complexity trap not worth entertaining.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: keep reading
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it is however quite true that there are very real costs to rejecting the gargle.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you also don't have the sort of job they do. what's office drone in heart of usg do, something TO STAND OUT ? holy shit.
asciilifeform: for instance, as chronicled here, asciilifeform's sweat to find new flat
asciilifeform: or how i pay 3x per square metre vs. 'mortgaged' folx
ben_vulpes: they already wear skirts paint nails
ben_vulpes: although i suppose enough do it that none of them risk ostracization for it now
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am i shit you not considering moving the brood back into the family domicile in 2019
ben_vulpes: castle i should say
mircea_popescu: the funny thing being that nonsense converges. "civil" and "common" law systems end up giving almost identical "solutions" to the same problems notwithstanding they start from opposite priors. similarily, life of usg mandarin is very much like life of say japanese company man.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i worked in the most abject imaginable usg pits, no one gave half a shit re 401k. maybe if mega-brass.
mircea_popescu: what's derpo-san to do, turn down company flat ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform rd is definitionally not heart of usg. try "health and human services expert analyst"
asciilifeform: never been one of ~those~, no.
asciilifeform: (i was once, and i shit thee not, 'research chemist'. not because knew any chemistry, but because there was -- i shit thee not -- no box to 'tick' in the form, for 'programmer')
asciilifeform: 'lab nigger' (per al schwartz)
mircea_popescu: most chemists active in research today would greatly benefit from having half of brain cut out replaced with programmer.
mircea_popescu: their fucking problems are "how to put this into excel"
mircea_popescu: "why the fuck" "because i need to add the cells"
asciilifeform: this was monumentally true.
asciilifeform: right in front of my eyes, yes, every day.
mircea_popescu: send them all back to fucking school, 90% of their time ends up spent doing insane chewing gum and spittle equivalent of unix pipes.
asciilifeform: it was in fact what i did there, fill in this strange hole .
mircea_popescu: and most research anything have the numeracy of a stripper.
asciilifeform: eh these were foreign folx, they learned to arithmetize in school, beaten with bamboo.
asciilifeform: ~0 usa-born anybody.
mircea_popescu: no fucking concept of analysis, i'm not discussing hyperpeels or any nuttery, just merely the concept of hey, if it's a function i can derive it, find the inflections, DRAW IT. yes with the fucking draughtsman kit.
mircea_popescu: no serious familiarity with statistics, nothing even remotely useful.
mircea_popescu: and they stink of it, too.
asciilifeform: maybe over in the 'social sciences' hole, this was.
asciilifeform: in my hole, statistize was ~all ~anybody did.
mircea_popescu: yes, as a follow the motions thing.
asciilifeform: and ~occasionally~ poison a rat.
mircea_popescu: no ~serious familiarity~. just the average came-with-apartment bipedal cat's "hey, open fridge door, take out food it's how food works"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unfortunately meatware research ~selects~ for 'follow the motion' types. 'tis why i got out.
mircea_popescu: yes well. by the time "scientist" is unable to ~comprehend~ what the fuck the numbers say about his data, i don't care what fucking calisthenics he does.
asciilifeform: other types of people -- they burn, there, quickly.
asciilifeform: die, of boredom.
mircea_popescu: if i wanted to arab i'd be in cairo, they have fine mosqs.
mircea_popescu: it's fucking annoying, too, "dude, whenever you increase your dataset your correlation goes down" "so should pick better data, right ?"
mircea_popescu: yea einstein, you got yourself a nobel prize in global warming in the making there.
asciilifeform: did they throw the warmists from strawberry trees yet ?
asciilifeform: or is that still coming up
ben_vulpes: epa is the latest word
ben_vulpes: aca on the chopping block
ben_vulpes: looking forward to the amd hike
asciilifeform: nasa when.
ben_vulpes: nasa now, fuck'em
mircea_popescu: i thought bahamas did nasa
mircea_popescu: they insulted his ancestors or something, i dun recall.
ben_vulpes: quite dead serious. nasa is a zombie.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he cut the rockets'n'probes nasa, but fattened the warmist one
mircea_popescu: that was a nasa ?
asciilifeform: it is nao.
mircea_popescu: no such nasa.
ben_vulpes: no such nasa makes sugar rockets that launch sideways
asciilifeform: but yes, check out what gets printed under nasa banner, be amazed.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608439 << you will notice trilema doesn't use these. this because i think they're idiotic.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 20:12 ben_vulpes: except of course threaded comments, and this and that and the other thing.
ben_vulpes: i did note. care to expunge?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 20:16 Framedragger: i'm still preferring http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-15#1503181 but granted, don't have a working "moderated but without captcha" comments solution. best i can think of is, write very light backend service to handle comment post requests, store them somewhere sensible, allow operator to accept/deny comments (could be flat text files)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yes. you are asking yourself to come up with a number which will be larger than the largest number of nested comments people may wish to make. if you're going to think like this might as well become a c++ specialist.
mircea_popescu: "if i allocate what i think it should be the program crashes"
asciilifeform: ftr ~already~ i cannot 'reply to' ben_vulpes's last comment.
asciilifeform: apparently max depth was... 3?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which is the problem. if it's gonna happen at all, then why not have it happen right off.
asciilifeform: less fortranism plox.
asciilifeform: not moar.
ben_vulpes: what means fortranism in this context?
mircea_popescu: he didn't want to say naggum-c because i said it already.
asciilifeform: (or perhaps let's call it PL/Ism. 'you may have 250 functions. and recurse 7 deep.' etc)
ben_vulpes: > "is renewable energy news at risk of becoming clickbait" bwaha
mircea_popescu: yeah, and derpy "liberal" chicks who don't know how to dress or be useful in the house are in danger of becoming sought after.
mircea_popescu: hurr durr news by fatties for fatties.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in barbaric times, folx often used fixed tables where expandable data structure would go today.
ben_vulpes: yaok i get it. wp nesting limit even existing boggles my mind
ben_vulpes: threaded replies is new to php devs? have never been on mailing lists?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it can't not exist because monitor is finite and it stupidly decided to nest by magic number allignment.
mircea_popescu: this is not sustainabler.
mircea_popescu: so if "nested = 12 pixels" then you get a limit of 100 or so.
mircea_popescu: "but what is monitor size ?" "dunno, best add a js lib"
ben_vulpes: i am offended at the inadequacy of everything in this world
mircea_popescu: if computers-were-magic(tm) then the thing would produce a virtual infinite space and the viewport would be dragged around across it, so you could follow diagonally
mircea_popescu: this needless to say isn't how web works.
ben_vulpes: the only thing that even halfway works is cunt.
mircea_popescu: because it runs on perl.
ben_vulpes: "ben_vulpes in for the layup, mircea_popescu with the duuuuuunk!"
mircea_popescu: layup eh ?
mircea_popescu: get up an' down an' layup all' around, move your ass to the left move your ass to the right...
ben_vulpes: isn't that what you call that thing in basketball where one dood drives in and puts the ball up for someone else to net?
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: probably knows
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i'm not black.
ben_vulpes: or did he grow up on comics and not spoarts
mircea_popescu: shit gotta type faster.
ben_vulpes: i would say "fight me irl" but you're the one #t denizen i don't think i'd have reasonable odds against
ben_vulpes: entirely unrelatedly, ms beat the street
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608467 << lmao this feels like the early 80s all over again. "and which keys don't work on your kv-1, private stan ?"
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 21:09 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pgup/pgdown work on the box i have here
ben_vulpes: looks like apple's in for another lost decade
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wait why ? i don't even lift!
ben_vulpes: you're absurdly tall and made out like a bandit in post-ussr ro
ben_vulpes: that is worrisome
mircea_popescu: drives teh wyminz nuts also, they work out till they drop, i never do, then i can you know, lift one in one arm and for some incomprehensible reason i got biceps the thickenss of their thighs. "BRO!!!" "hey, i got testosterone, it's great."
ben_vulpes: i only recently realized that i needed to be doing the heavy lifting on family outings
mircea_popescu: easier time parking ?
ben_vulpes: yeah let me just *oof* move this *hrunph* truck over *hurk* here baby
mircea_popescu: next you turn green...
ben_vulpes: nah, but carrying 27+lbs of kid plus groceries while i stare at the sky and contemplate nozzles that impart rotational inertia to the flugenbody is not time efficient; i can just as easily design while hefting bairns
ben_vulpes: no need to impose all of the load on others
mircea_popescu: or you could add pedals to your desk and produce your own electricity.
ben_vulpes: electricity is an antipattern
mircea_popescu: ok, olive oil then.
ben_vulpes: eh just make more babies
ben_vulpes: reduce excess baby into biodiesel
mircea_popescu: working towards the ultimate tmsr goal. ben_vulpes does the miners, we got an autonomous noncorporeal state going
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> (you're invited to go fishing, discover fish will eat your bait and not bite) << AHA, this is where most bait goes.
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-27/u-s-economic-growth-cools-on-biggest-trade-drag-since-2010
mircea_popescu: lol 1.9% blow me down.
mircea_popescu: o look, trade deficit widening.
mircea_popescu: should be interesting to see what trump does re that only really important point.
ben_vulpes: later y'all
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> Browser shots Sorry service is down for maintanence << dude they're not even trying anymore, the web's deader than shannen doherty's career << haha
mod6: <+asciilifeform> (i am speaking strictly of provably-unreachable routines. there are others that could be snipped, with some work, without affecting semantics) << indeed. i have collected some of these myself.
mircea_popescu: btw, anyone here who hasn't played knight;s bounty (the legend) ?
mircea_popescu: game's fucking epic.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if computers-were-magic(tm) then the thing would produce a virtual infinite space and the viewport would be dragged around across it, so you could follow diagonally << This is where Qntra CSS is masterpiece!
BingoBoingo has not played
mircea_popescu: for srs
BingoBoingo: much srs
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> isn't that what you call that thing in basketball where one dood drives in and puts the ball up for someone else to net? << this is an alley-oop
trinque: layup's a finger roll around the side of the basket, horizontal spin on ball so it rolls along backboard and in
trinque: more of a bank than roll along, but yeah
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CFAA83DBA61419976C5A7EB332195CB3BB611760917DF59CE06273B247798B6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FEF1C6C9A890941640110AD479AFDEDCC6132445EEFB2D1F31C1D58AFF1DC4F4 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX JAL)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5A35236F137FD211F772259BD5287EDE9AA09CD8A275F881C74BD97AB8BD0545 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D21502DDC614160506D49019E3A101B1D769C3A49597CAB4B67CBBC0EF4E7592 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CFAA83DBA61419976C5A7EB332195CB3BB611760917DF59CE06273B247798B6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1054...6417 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1413...3643 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
mod6: megal0g today, and yesterday. nice.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAE0707E17D6FC42F61F64831A1D0579383302AD965D59BC4A2C82CD7020B595 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ZW)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAE0707E17D6FC42F61F64831A1D0579383302AD965D59BC4A2C82CD7020B595 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1571...4477 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ZW)
mircea_popescu: lol poor phuctor been bottling in the rage all day, now it's quiet can let loose
asciilifeform: lol zimbabwe
asciilifeform: first time i ~ever~ see a .zw
asciilifeform: tcp over dead monkey?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 23:58 mircea_popescu: drives teh wyminz nuts also, they work out till they drop, i never do, then i can you know, lift one in one arm and for some incomprehensible reason i got biceps the thickenss of their thighs. "BRO!!!" "hey, i got testosterone, it's great."
asciilifeform: ( and i didn't even crib this maxim from BingoBoingo's links. it seems elementary. )
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608577 << here's one crackpot method: implement 'gravitation'. analogously to physical one. i.e. an agglomeration of coin is worth ~more~ than selfsame coin in fragged form. quantifiably, in some straightforward way.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 21:56 mircea_popescu: davout the thing that SHOULD be done about it is make it work in such a way it doesn't choke in its own fumes. not that i know how to do that.
asciilifeform: think 'earth can hold an atmosphere, but asteroid cannot'. same idea.
asciilifeform: frag-entropy, like other systemic problems with traditional bitcoin, is simply a result of misaligned incentives.
asciilifeform: (as in the node-miner conflict, described by mircea_popescu , for instance)
asciilifeform: presently fraggers do not pay the cost of fragging, it is strictly 'ecological', and externalized to future users.
asciilifeform: make'em pay.
asciilifeform: and likewise incentivize defrag.
asciilifeform: consider mircea_popescu's piece where 'most folx outside of usa will make you pay extra for not paying in benjie-usd'
asciilifeform: wanna pay in pennies? pay moar.
mircea_popescu: look, the problem is that as the empire grows, the army food supply goes from bushels to millions of bushels. "restrict legionnaire rations" is not a solution.
asciilifeform: bitcoin as known today won't work on galactic scale, tho
asciilifeform: lamportian problems with clock.
asciilifeform: so we will not have this problem.
asciilifeform: even earth-mars is a serious stretch, for this reason.
asciilifeform: as for 'growth', i have extreme difficulty picturing the number of users of bitcoin who have by any conceivable stretch of the imagination ~actual business using it~ going up, rather than down
mircea_popescu: why ? the whole point of life is to make less idiots.
mircea_popescu: if tomorrow we conquer the us and put it through the grinder, that'll result in 297mn bodies, yes
asciilifeform: nobody's making moar bitcoinatronic comps.
mircea_popescu: but also in 3mn sane people.
mircea_popescu: well... that's ~3mn more
asciilifeform: there are not 3mn gold vaults.
asciilifeform: today, or 100y ago
asciilifeform: can mircea_popescu picture a planet3 with 3mn gold vaults (not pirate chest, either, but the kind with xray rig, defensive turrets, tank division) ?
mircea_popescu: not sure these picturings are useful.
asciilifeform: i see btc as 'strategic' machine, closer to tonnes-of-au, or hydrogen bomb, or icbm sub, than to something 'to buy coffee with'.
mircea_popescu: that part's not in dispute.
asciilifeform: then from whence 'growth' ?
asciilifeform: 3mn hbomb owners when ?
mircea_popescu: mmm. deglobalization necessarily means more sane people.
asciilifeform: quite likely. but i dare say, they will for the most part be sane in a non-btc-directed way.
asciilifeform: camel instead of mercedes.
asciilifeform: (~sane~ camelsmanship.)
mircea_popescu: now how would you know this ?
asciilifeform: i don't, my oracular ball broke, i dropped it on cement.
asciilifeform: but facts such as 'no one is making more Actual Computer nor is anyone likely to in next century' add up to this picture imho.
asciilifeform: ('bitcoin' on winblowz-crapple is not bitcoin, but a masochistic and wasteful paypal)
mircea_popescu: well, oft repeated alfisms aren't thereby facts.
asciilifeform: want to dispute the hypothesis as stated ?
asciilifeform: beyond 'not necessarily fact'
mircea_popescu: hypothesis IS NOT A FACT.
asciilifeform: 'bitcoin on fritz-chipped box is a paypal' is a physical fact.
asciilifeform: to arbitrary precision.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, NOTHING will scale in this mythical 'i want INFINITE parts in close communion' sense. even having too many atoms in one place, 'won't scale', you get neutron star.
asciilifeform: there was a thread where 'there will be S souls on planet an' no moar'
asciilifeform: Or Else
mircea_popescu: hopefully there's such a limit naturally.
asciilifeform: imho one of the appeals of bitcoin is that it in fact makes this limit explicit.
asciilifeform: shows where the ceiling is.
asciilifeform: instead of leaving it as something for people to discover when it is too late and they are already packed like sardines.
asciilifeform: so in my eye 'stop it from choking on own exhaust fume' is quite != from 'scale FOREVAH'
asciilifeform: and the former is 100% about incentives.
asciilifeform: the latter -- is a bad dream.
mircea_popescu: conversely, the proposition that "the sum total of people that could possibly be worth knowing is equal my dunbar number" smacks a little of panglossism
asciilifeform: the number is unknowable and i will not pretend to know it or estimate it.
asciilifeform: but it is FINITE.
asciilifeform: because the alternative is lunacy.
mircea_popescu: the above was also finite : 2.1 quintillion.
asciilifeform: as alluded to earlier, speed of light forces you to have localized bitcoin nets. can easily make'em hierarchical.
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu an' the other immortals, could have their galactic coin.
asciilifeform: it wouldn't work quite like today's bitcoin, tho.
asciilifeform: and would still necessarily remain finite machine.
asciilifeform: and if universe expands and you gotta grow it -- you grow it at the tendrils (leaves)
asciilifeform brb, meat.
asciilifeform: !~later tell ben_vulpes your logtron drops last line..? bug?
asciilifeform: or nm, just drops 'actions'
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608389 << not anymore http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-05#1534769
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:52 ben_vulpes: unless i misremember, the man is in the habit of at least mentioning prolonged absences.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-05 21:19 deedbot: diana_coman rated phf 2 << Only known fault so far is making public the day he leaves for vacations.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 920.05, vol: 4322.84020147 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 908.295, vol: 3526.56063 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 918.37, vol: 8571.18061411 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 926.199454, vol: 5549.76380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 920.0, vol: 1236.06537967 | Volume-weighted last average: 919.111117634
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608382 << this is the official acknowledgement of the receipt. likewise i saw it the first two times you posted it, but didn't realize that writing the nth copy of the logreader that you embarked on is a high priority republic business. seriously, what's with the attitude?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 19:49 ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
BingoBoingo: ^ Lafond reminisces about youth