Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-07-22 | 2016-07-24 →
deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] End of Days. -
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchla
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchla
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchla
mats: sick every day carry
deedbot: [Trilema] Fred Wilson is an idiot, and other things -
mircea_popescu: rochester ny eh ?
mircea_popescu: $up interviewee
deedbot: interviewee voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: o/ interviewee
interviewee: hi Shinohai
shinohai: and you are Drew I presume?
interviewee: you betcha.
shinohai: kk ... so ... the dao. You believe the "dao attacker' has a legal claim here?
interviewee: here's the analysis
interviewee: when determining whether any party has the ability to invoke the power of the legal system to determine a dispute, you must first determine the party's respective legal rights
interviewee: that is to say, who has what rights/powers/responsibilities/burdens
shinohai: i follow
interviewee: (caveat- i do US law only, because i don't know any other legal system)
interviewee: there are 3 or 4 analytic inflection points here
interviewee: 1. is there any contract relationship and if so, what does it say everyone can and can't do?
interviewee: 2. if there is no contract relationship, is there any conventionally recognized "ownership" right to any of the ETH/DAOt out there
shinohai: hasn't it been established that the dao *didn't specifically prohibit this behavior* ?
interviewee: 3. if no contract and no "ownership" then can anyone get anything usign the legal system?
interviewee: 4. if we accept the law is code premise, then is what the exploiter did actually a violation of any others' rights?
interviewee: as to your q, TheDao was evidently premised as code = law
interviewee: however, flying in the face of that declaration were layer after layer of lawyer language
interviewee: you have the comments in the actual .sol files as to warranties and incorp. of the gnu license
shinohai: mircea_popescu, et all any questions for possible qntra?
interviewee: you have the file in the git for the slockit code that had all sorts of interesting/strange declarations/disclaimers
interviewee: then you have the conflicting mess of declarations in the page
interviewee: whcih of course was ambigiuous as to its ownership for a while- so it was unclear what "disclaimers" actually came from "TheDao"
interviewee: and who was authorized to discllaim for TheDao
mircea_popescu: shinohai well, what is your interest here ?
mircea_popescu: interviewee are you a lawyer ?
interviewee: complicating this of course is the fact that an investor/DaoT holder could actually buy in without seeing any of those disclaimers b/c the buy in was actually just a ETH transaction
interviewee: yes, i am a lawyer.
mircea_popescu: well, specifically ?
interviewee: however, none fo this is legal advice- just my persaonl analysis
shinohai: i was just curious as to the legal standing of the dao from US perspective
shinohai: hypothetically of course
interviewee: so, it's unclear if any of those disclaimer actually mean anythign or nothing
interviewee: so, here's my personal take
mircea_popescu: the actual legal standing is not established. it's one of those things that are a huge pile of nonsense a judge will have to cut through.
interviewee: there are repeated express disclaimers of contract rights/creation
mircea_popescu: financially, it's toxic, for this reason. nobody sane will get involved in it, which is the point.
interviewee: a judge will probably infer some contractual relationships
interviewee: based on conduct
interviewee: hi Mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: us judges are notorious for poor judgement and arbitrary rulings.
interviewee: i enjoyed your blog that you pushed out right after the attack.
mircea_popescu: interviewee the question to you is still, concretely, which lawyer are you ? otherwise the situation here is indistinguishable from "bored redditor clicked a webirc link"
interviewee: what do you mean "which lawyer am i ?"
interviewee: who am i IRL?
interviewee: US Judges do a really good job considering the system they have to deal with
mircea_popescu: aha! cool.
interviewee: that's me friends
mircea_popescu: do consider making a pgp key and registering it with deedbot
interviewee: mircea_popescu i'll check it out
interviewee: so, back to the analysis
interviewee: the point is this
interviewee: if code = law and code permitted action
mircea_popescu: next q being, are you actually trying to position yourself to litigate this, or just blogging about it ?
interviewee: then entirely plausible that permitted action provides title
interviewee: and then the unilateral fork deprives rights.
interviewee: to litigate it is very complex
interviewee: b/c of standing
interviewee: it would be a HELL of a lot of f un
interviewee: but a longshot for a vairiety of reasons
mircea_popescu: standing only comes at proceeding time. litigation starts with filing.
interviewee: any ahole can file anything
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be the first time someone files something that's then dismissed.
BingoBoingo popcorns
interviewee: getting service and past a motion to dismiss is what i'm talkign about
mircea_popescu: service is not so hard - you sue mit.
mircea_popescu: they've got money.
interviewee: then you open the box and deal with the endless array of new law to make
BingoBoingo: I thought it was U Maryland
interviewee: how do you coerce a blockchain with a court order?
mircea_popescu: motion to dismiss you worry about after they reject early settlement. if they do.
mircea_popescu: interviewee you can't be this naive. "a blockchain" ? you sue mit, the hedge fund.
mircea_popescu: tortious interference &all.
interviewee: so you want cash damages not to reverse the fork
mircea_popescu: no, actually, im in the business of destroying the us.
interviewee: so is about 1/2 of the voters in the US so you're in good company
mircea_popescu: also, there's exactly no difference between cash damages and reversing the fork.
interviewee: one is MUCH easier to get
mircea_popescu: they're both the same thing.
mircea_popescu: ie, even if the judge orders "to reverse the fork" the only practical implementation is a liquidation in cash.
interviewee: are you a lawyer, mircea?
interviewee: from my analysis of the toolbox available to lawyers, it is much easier to get a judgment and levy on conventional assets than to try to compel actors to change code.
interviewee: esp. non party actors
mircea_popescu: no argument there. all i'm saying is that even if the latter were ordered, it'd still not work.
interviewee: the collateral damage tot he platform caused by a public suit would be breathtaking
mircea_popescu: shinohai this means that the derps are in the worst case of all : all the damage of their "hard fork" is now baked in but nevertheless none of the things they hoped it would achieve were achieved.
mircea_popescu: interviewee which is the point.
interviewee: understood.
interviewee: so yes, i think there's a credible arguement that the exploiter just lost rights.
shinohai: it's already dead, but this is poking it with stick
mircea_popescu: ~anyone holding as much as a farthing "worth" of ethereum presently has overhead the possible claim here discussed, with its treble damages and whatnot.
interviewee: and a shit load of hurdles to cross
shinohai: to see what spills out?
interviewee: so, i'm enjoying this quite a great deal
mircea_popescu: and if mit doesn't distance itself from it post haste, it's definitely open to a tort, which... you know, judge awards a billion, of which 0.1% mit's responsibility. so they have TO PAY THRE WHOLE BILLION
BingoBoingo: One can not decathalon to Olympus without jumping over some hurdles.
mircea_popescu: us tort law is a wonder.
interviewee: could be
interviewee: or not.
interviewee: unclear.
interviewee: you have to remember the gatekeeper here is likely to be a +60yr old conservative christian white male
interviewee: statistically, anyway, among US judges
mircea_popescu: there is no gatekeeper. damages are jury awards.
interviewee: respectfully you get to the jury at the end and there's a lot to do before the end.
mircea_popescu: anyway, no way mit senior counsel ever allows this anywhere near a trial ; which is why it's fine settle fodder if you're looking to feed yourself.
interviewee: ok, perhaps i am as naive as shinohai suggests, but where's the claim against MIT?
interviewee: did they write any part of the code or solidity or ethereum?
mircea_popescu: tortious interference. they provided the office space where the decision was made and allegedly "forced the participants to decide"
mircea_popescu: the allegation has to be established by trier of fact, ie, jury.
interviewee: what's the factual basis for the "forced the participants to decide"?
mircea_popescu: they decided.
interviewee: try again.
interviewee: facts, not post-execution observations.
interviewee: are there facts out there?
mircea_popescu: not going to. the factual matter will have to be established somehow. you allege they did, they allege they didn't. so it's a dispute.
interviewee: Rule 11- can't just sling shit and hope for the best
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, ethereum happened in the mit media lab.
mircea_popescu: that's ~enough.
mircea_popescu: they did own the premises.
interviewee: vitalik & crew built it there?
shinohai: of course they didn't, fork chain so this never, ever happened
mircea_popescu: not really how it works shinohai :p
interviewee: if you sign a contract for delivery of 50 tons of charcoal while sitting at the restaurant and the other party breaches 2 years later, you think you have a claim against the restaurant?
mircea_popescu: but this is not a restaurant. if you decide to break into the democratic convention while sitting in nixon's white house, guess what.
BingoBoingo: If the restaurant offered grant money to people selling charcoal chain mebbe?
interviewee: there are lots of lawyers who would "just" want to file this to make their name
interviewee: a serious claim by a serious party with actual rights and i'm 100000000% down
mircea_popescu: this is one of those million-dollar-opportunities, which i hear are getting rarer and rarer in an ever more crowded lawyer market.
interviewee: yes and no.
interviewee: they are out there but they are increasingly being regulated/legislated out
interviewee: agree this may be a fun one
mircea_popescu: anyway. there is no such thing as "actual rights" here, nor even as much as title. nobody has title to any cryptocurrency.
interviewee: you have contingent claims and claims of control.
mircea_popescu: sure, but that's possession not title.
interviewee: there is no govt actor using police power to enforce like the fancy colored linen i used to buy my coffee this am
interviewee: you can sue to enforce any part of yoru property rights
interviewee: including posessory
interviewee: in conversion, you don't lose legal title, just posessory
mircea_popescu: sure, i don't mean "title to sue" i mean title as in property
interviewee: conversion = civil version of theft
interviewee: if you stole my stradivarious, i'd not lose title just posession
interviewee: and you bet i'd sue your ass
mircea_popescu: (stradivarius)
interviewee: even tho title stays with me
interviewee: (i can't spell for shit)
interviewee: even if you want to call it "right to control"
interviewee: same diff
interviewee: so, i gave a talk about this at NYU 3 days before the exploiter did his/her/their thing
interviewee: and presented a draft academic paper on it
interviewee: and guessed right about many of the things that would or would not happen
interviewee: including that there would be efforts to roll back
interviewee: that would show that ETH is run by a cabal
interviewee: but big picture
mircea_popescu: not bad.
interviewee: since the right are unsettled
interviewee: and everyone was told they'd get what they get from hitting buttons
shinohai: $up interviewee
deedbot: interviewee voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: oh, right, there's also a whole pile of claims re insider trading, manipulation etc over the "price" of "ethereum" at kraken and poloniex.
mircea_popescu: but those some later time.
interviewee: sure, if you have standing to bring them
interviewee: remember- you're getting past your gatekeeper
interviewee: to reach the threat of the jury
interviewee: and remmeber pubic stake holder impacts
mircea_popescu: so far i'm just pointing and laughing at the sec.
interviewee: sec is paying a lot of attention IMO
interviewee: based on MO only
interviewee: do not be surprised to see enw rules soon
interviewee: fuck me. new
mircea_popescu: if they paid attention when they should have they'd have busted pirate when i said to in 2012, not waited for years on the case.
interviewee: easier to act in US
mircea_popescu: their mistaken politico hope that "it'll end bitcoin" will require blood to wash off.
interviewee: than out.
interviewee: btc is probably not going anywhere
interviewee: so, they just have to live with their new reality.
mircea_popescu: heh. bitcoin is going to the following place : i'll be electing the us president long after nobody remembers what an us dollar used to be.
interviewee: you and many smart people think so
mircea_popescu: he does sound like a lawyer doesn't he :)
interviewee: i'm trying to continue to learn, watch the fireworks, and help out where i can.
interviewee: hey! i'm a lawyer who used to be tech. go easy on me.
mircea_popescu: seriously, get a pgp and $register it
interviewee: seriously, i'll check it out.
mircea_popescu: alrighty.
interviewee: so, as far as this front goes
interviewee: i'm doing some more of the conferences to try to teach peopel to not make dao messes again
interviewee: doing some academic and poppy writing
mircea_popescu is curious what mr hinkes will think once he gets through the logs to the bitbet receivership process.
mircea_popescu: interviewee you got a blog ?
interviewee: and trying to work on some materials that will be used to guide businesses that want to play with smart contracts to keep them from blowing their own heads off DaoStyle
interviewee: with some people at MSFT
interviewee: blog is in process. my stuff is blasted across various sites
interviewee: you have my name- google away
mircea_popescu: yeah, get a blog, it's the smart move.
interviewee: you'll probably agree with some of my stuff, which is cool. you'll probably disagree with some of my stuff which is cool too
interviewee: i'm easy to find if anyone wants to
mircea_popescu: anyway - since crypto governance interests you : bitbet was a reasonably productive bitcoin crop that split up over disputes inside management, was declared insolvent, had syndic appointed, was liquidated and the whole process was closed. it was a) an ad-hoc process and b) done within 6 weeks.
mircea_popescu: prolly an informative case study.
interviewee: in what jursidiction?
shinohai: all without the benefit of flaming tires in a shitpit.
interviewee: lol. always preferred
interviewee: i have rep'd a number of receivers
interviewee: so the speed in whcih you can liquidate varies based on a number of factors
mircea_popescu: certainly.
interviewee: if you have cooperative parties, can go smooth and fast and cheap
interviewee: if you have a party fighting (like one i am involved with atm) then its a mess
mircea_popescu: i just said "over a dispute inside management" yes ?
mircea_popescu: nightmare of nightmares in fiat world.
interviewee: we're on day 4 of evidentiary hearings on a motion to dissolve
mircea_popescu: closer to divorce proceeding than estate settlement
interviewee: again, divorce can be a cheap one day affair or an attenuated mess
mircea_popescu: something like in "war of the roses" :p
mircea_popescu: you seen that one ?
interviewee: sure. good flick
interviewee: anyway, i've rep'd receivers tht took over 9 digit scams
interviewee: and rep'd trustees that took over ponzis
interviewee: in the billions
interviewee: so i know my way around
interviewee: those circles
interviewee: google a guy named scott rothstein
mircea_popescu: what a crazy world, where idiots have billions to give to scammers.
interviewee: we rep'd his trustee
mircea_popescu: $google scott rothstein
deedbot: No results.
mircea_popescu: eh get out google!
mircea_popescu: guy was pretty epic, in fairness. teh roger stone quotes, nov vs july 2009 totally make the pie.
interviewee: Kimmy is selling cars at a lexus dealer now.
interviewee: he had hsi office across the street
mircea_popescu: how's debra & aimee doin' ?
interviewee: i think still incarcerated
interviewee: not sure
interviewee: greed gets the best of em
mircea_popescu: no, was released 2014, pre -xmas
interviewee: shit. i guess i'm not on their xmas card list.
interviewee: shinohai, do you have any questions for me?
shinohai: actually no, you summed up everything i wanted to know pretty well.
shinohai: but i thank you for stopping in, this is a very interesting study
mircea_popescu is kinda curious what qntra comes of this
shinohai: I was curious what legal perspective in US was, thought it might end up as a Qntra
shinohai: oh ^
interviewee: ok cool.
interviewee: well, i'm around and happy to join you gents/ladies if other similar issues crop up, so Shinohai, don't be shy if you want to bend my ear.
shinohai: thanks! same here, consider bringing a gpg key to deedbot
shinohai: im sure this dao brouhaha will bring lulz for years to come
interviewee: well, my phone has been ringing a lot
interviewee: getting opps to go speak is good for visibility
interviewee: and as long as people are going to play with these platforms, they might as well not shit it up like the Dao.
shinohai: Good to see people that understand what utter shit these platforms are though.
shinohai: i dont meet too many tbh
interviewee: yea, its really concerning
interviewee: because the hype cycle spins
mircea_popescu: you should have seen the 2010-2011 interations of pointless&witless in action
shinohai: its like some sort of ponzi kyklos
interviewee: my boys with Bitcoin Uncensored just did a podcast with some VC guy who was remarkably honest in saying he doesnt know what a Blockchain is and just shills them b/c investors were told to buy them.
shinohai: What color do you want that blockchain?
shinohai: "mauve has the most ram"
interviewee: i am probably unpopular but i put somethign like this out there once and caught some shit for it
shinohai: someone has to stand up for immutability
mircea_popescu: eh, nobody seriously aims to replace "dbs"
mircea_popescu: and speaking of berger singerman, check out the urgent associate :
mircea_popescu: no of counsel for her, she knows about hotels.
hanbot gets halfway through mircea_popescu's latest article, still has no cloo
hanbot: who the fuck is fred wilson?!
mircea_popescu: he's the wife of the woman that thinks some peak of elegance. notwithstanding the ax-hewn cutlery.
hanbot: ...somebody teach me something quick so i can overwrite that
hanbot: what, both?
phf: "gothamgal"
phf: "The Women’s Entrepreneurs Festival"
phf: "while I work hard, I also play hard."
phf: "My husband is my best friend. When I take off all of these “hats”, my most important job is being a mom. We have three kids who are terrific people."
mircea_popescu: hey, better a delusional "entrepreneur" than a common wino. housewife dun got so many options.
mircea_popescu: hanbot hey, speaking of, wanna go for some oysters ?
phf: i'd be envious, but after all the other argentina reports, i don't trust that experience to be any good
phf ducks
mircea_popescu: well there IS a river right here...
hanbot: mircea_popescu do they look like adriana chechik?
mircea_popescu: nono, the seafood. i mean... the mollusc.
phf: well, that's what i thought, but trust it to argentinians to fuck it up somehow. ship oysters from boston, because "american" or whatever else
mircea_popescu: crassostrea or w/e it's called
mircea_popescu: phf in fariness i had some pretty great oysters on boston wharf.
hanbot: well the japanese pop here might make decent oysters, sureh
mod6: oh hey, interesting log read this am.
deedbot: [Qntra] Major Socialist Party Emails Free In Time For Convention -
phf: %s foo
asciilifeform takes in logz at beach
phf: oh
phf: $s foo
phf: $seen blah
phf: ;;seen yourmom
gribble: I have not seen yourmom.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 10:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.228.
asciilifeform: moar actual-rsa pops
phf: asciilifeform: ocean city?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 15:43 mircea_popescu: the actual legal standing is not established. it's one of those things that are a huge pile of nonsense a judge will have to cut through.
phf: way classier, if that term applies to the md/de/va beach area, but missing out on throngs of russian work exchange crowd :>
asciilifeform: lel classy
phf: :D
asciilifeform: strictly 'people of lolmart' here
phf: right, lewes vs ocean city is slightly skewed from fat 16 yeard olds to fat 60 yr olds, but it's not as much of shitshow
asciilifeform: both here
asciilifeform: and the obligatory tatooed chix also.
asciilifeform: 'In 2009 Rothstein resided at the Federal Detention Center, Miami in Downtown Miami,[15] but was later moved to an undisclosed location and his inmate number removed from the Federal Bureau of Prisons inmate locator webpage.' << is there a legal logic for this?
asciilifeform: ... or did hitler let him go, for a chunk of the change.
asciilifeform: or shot , so he could not implicate untouchables.
asciilifeform: 'On September 8, 2011, U.S. District Judge James I. Cohn granted the government's motion to prohibit videotaping Rothstein during a scheduled deposition of him, citing “serious harm” and “security reasons that are unusual in nature.” The exact reasons for the judge's decision were sealed. '
mats: worried about getting murdered by the folks he stole from, perhaps?
asciilifeform: mats: why would judge give half a fuck about this?
mats: i can think of half a dozen reasons, all to do with publicity, subversion of justice, and embarrassing the court
mats: i believe this sorta thing is common for high profile cases
mats: ;;google sealed indictment
gribble: Error: We broke The Google!
shinohai: ;;later tell thestringpuller
gribble: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: mircea_popescu: wp isn't so bad once server is tweaked a little
deedbot: [Qntra] Oklahomo Police Sniper Kills Child's Dog -
ben_vulpes: my insurance company politely declined to pay for the infant's herd immunity.
ben_vulpes: despite it being mandated to make payments.
ben_vulpes: despite my having to pay for it.
ben_vulpes: grand fucking insu^H^H^H^Hgosplan
asciilifeform: << btw: usa, pennsylvania, 'frontier dsl'
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 10:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.231.
asciilifeform: << they break into houses and kill pets for a reason: to remind plebes who is boss.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 19:52 deedbot: [Qntra] Oklahomo Police Sniper Kills Child's Dog -
asciilifeform: try breaking into clitler's house and killing so much as her pet flea.
asciilifeform: see what happens.
asciilifeform: speaking of snipers, anyone recall lon horiuchi ?
asciilifeform: $s horiuchi
asciilifeform: still a free man.
asciilifeform: living quite openly, in usa, iirc.
a111: Logged on 2015-09-08 03:24 asciilifeform: << for folks unfamiliar with the figure
asciilifeform: 'hero' of waco and ruby ridge.
BingoBoingo: $up thortron
deedbot: thortron voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: << anything came of that polymorphic zip btw ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 18:44 asciilifeform takes in logz at beach
asciilifeform: << i did bring it with me. but not yet dealt with it...
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 22:29 mircea_popescu: << anything came of that polymorphic zip btw ?
mircea_popescu: hey, did i ever publish the pics of that fabulous old cameras and photo gear bar ?
asciilifeform: not iirc
mircea_popescu: ah then i'm doing that.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 21:14 a111: Logged on 2015-09-08 03:24 asciilifeform: << for folks unfamiliar with the figure
deedbot: [Trilema] Cerrado for duelo, the aliens have landed, the camera bar and other strange -
BingoBoingo: $up thortron
deedbot: thortron voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 422020 | Current Difficulty: 2.1349250110751337E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 423359 | Next Difficulty In: 1339 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 58 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 655.6, vol: 1198.27680929 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 649.38, vol: 2193.14869 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 655.77, vol: 9644.79851049 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 653.439085, vol: 83342.07730000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 654.599, vol: 701.83913138 | Volume-weighted last average: 653.614017551
thortron: BingoBoingo eh nothing to say just lurking. Will pipe up when I can help on a task.
BingoBoingo: thortron: But, you really can't say I used to be X without... supporting the assertion?
thortron: BingoBoingo: If you ask gernika, I'm sure he would say "I agree."
asciilifeform: (daguerreotine!?)
thortron: BingoBoingo: in anycase consider the claim retracted, as attempting to prove it with a signed statement saying "I agree" would make any attempt to prove it worthless.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski C17H13ClN4 can be a lot of things, gotta present the atoms in a way the clarifies the structure
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no dude that's an ancient daguerotype thing
mircea_popescu: prolly took wyat earp's picture
asciilifeform: i can tell, these also came with fixators for heads
asciilifeform: (so patient dun wiggle during portraiture)
mircea_popescu: << random collection of everyone-knows-es. complete with image of african national behelding grannie panties.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: every time i go to a junk shop, the kind with profusion of old photo gear - and that's ~all junk shops, incl. the ones i went to in b-a : i think of how the camera was in some ways the pc of its day : 1,001 vendors cranking out 'us, too'
mircea_popescu: very much the 1800s computer, really. including apple hipsterism and the whole array of social peribehaviours
asciilifeform: 1,001 vendors, 1,000,001 interchangeable and often incompatible and often quasi-disposable widgets.
asciilifeform: and yes!
mircea_popescu: i suspect these actually form a class, something like "escapist technologies". up until recent "steampunk" revival, steam engine and metalworking did not enjoy same position.
mircea_popescu: while certainly being much more commonly seen ; important, useful, successful, you name it.
asciilifeform: eh the 'steampunk' folk mostly 'work' in broken clocks and epoxy
asciilifeform: mishmash of sad gears etc.
asciilifeform: like barbarians gluing pieces of roman mosaic to sword hilts.
mircea_popescu: but from a cultural (as opposed to a civilisational) perspective, they're doing a (belated) digestion of a large field. ie, they're finally apple-izing it.
mircea_popescu: things the actual people involved would have never done.
asciilifeform: not 'it' but the corpse.
asciilifeform: dunno what broken pocketwatches have to do with the steam titans of isembard brunel.
asciilifeform: camera, on other hand, ~was~ 'escapist tech', brute brain melted when given his bit of 'dunno how it worx! miracle!111' magic
asciilifeform: as then later with pc etc.
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 experiment was successful
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja look in the stereoscope?
BingoBoingo: "Ms Thomson, who is currently unemployed, said she was left heartbroken when one day Holly-Ann came home and asked, 'mum, why did you make me fat?'"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and?
mircea_popescu: well, not much to see and i didn't want to move it.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone ever had burrata ?
asciilifeform: sounds mouthwatering
asciilifeform implodes.
asciilifeform: just thinking about Real Food (tm)
mircea_popescu: yeah the local variant is nb.
mircea_popescu: it's an iffy cheese, one of the few that do not age period. about as bad as seafood.
asciilifeform: hey lutefisk ages!!!1
asciilifeform: and rakefisk..
thestringpuller: << I know Ver-IFIED is almost milked dry, but is this what happens when you defect out of naive idealism?
thestringpuller: seems dude is borderline fugitive
thestringpuller: s/fugitive/exile
BingoBoingo: Imma qntra it
deedbot: [Qntra] Canada Avoids Roger VER-ification -
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform thinking about it, there were historical attempts to morph clockwork into "escapist tech". some idiots were literally tryingm to make tin women, hence story of gepeto and such nonsense.
mircea_popescu: it never took off, the suspension of disbelief required too great i guess.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-24 02:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform thinking about it, there were historical attempts to morph clockwork into "escapist tech". some idiots were literally tryingm to make tin women, hence story of gepeto and such nonsense.
asciilifeform: but it was side show, because hand-made.
asciilifeform: also because people stupid enough to actually 'tin woman' were not yet born.
mircea_popescu: nah, people stupid enough were born in the age of praxiteles.
asciilifeform: 'axenic-mouse'-man did not yet live.
mircea_popescu: lived, lived.
mircea_popescu: in every palace there ever was.
asciilifeform: what do palace dwellers need ~tin~ woman for??
mircea_popescu: narcissus problems.
asciilifeform stumped, on account of insufficient dirigible experience
mircea_popescu: to small children and retarded adults, normal people (eg ) seem "dirty".
mircea_popescu: which is why calling them axenic is especialloy apt.
mircea_popescu: in other news "hot pursuit" is an ok comedy. sofia vergara is dumb as a doorknob, but smoking hot ; reese witherspoon is maturing into a remarkable actress. if she keeps up she'll end up a sort of her generation's maryl streep.
asciilifeform: in otherer still nyooz, holy shit, i found a hidden bottle of ... halon, in this house. stamped 1986.
asciilifeform: unused.
BingoBoingo: hidden where?
asciilifeform: behind a cabinet
asciilifeform: was doing some repairs and found.
mircea_popescu: isn't that toxic ?
asciilifeform: halon?!
asciilifeform: interesting precisely because not.
asciilifeform: go, breathe
asciilifeform: inert to man, like freon, and banned to all but usg
mircea_popescu: ah yes, the danger was asphyxiation not toxicity.
asciilifeform: again no.
asciilifeform: did NOT work by displacing oxygen.
mircea_popescu: why exactly was a halon dump dangerous ?
asciilifeform: but by removing the coordination complex you need for combustion.
asciilifeform: halon dump was not dangerous , as such. but the co2 tanks that replaced it by usg fiat - WOULD kill.
asciilifeform: via simple asphyxia.
asciilifeform: glorious gas, a few % in a room, can breathe ok, but cannot light a cig.
asciilifeform: today halon is a costly rarity and sought out by car collectors and other folk who own flammable and easily-destroyed items
mircea_popescu: well so trhen good for you.
asciilifeform: of the irreplaceable kind
asciilifeform: anyway lulzy, that bottle was sold at ordinary kitchen shops during the last hurrah era of usa.
asciilifeform: reagan was on the throne, lispm's - running, sciam - in print, usd - worth something, sought after by orcs..
asciilifeform: halon, freon!!
mircea_popescu: dun worry, they'll make it great again.
mircea_popescu: not so expensive, 50 bux a pound
asciilifeform: keep in mind, 'halotron' != halon.
mats: i'm reading on a cdc site that halon is approx. as toxic to humans as co2
asciilifeform: mats: that is, not at all
mircea_popescu: mats well, co2 isn't toxic.
mats: ok, ok, 'Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH)'
asciilifeform: naturally it isn't air
asciilifeform: but you dun need to displace the air, is the point.
asciilifeform: works great in entirely breathable concentrations.
mircea_popescu: "car" is also not toxic, unless large concentration in your liver.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny, they DO charge hazmat to ship.
mircea_popescu: fucking derps. any fucking excuse.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because pressure.
asciilifeform: same for co2 or any other extinguisher.
mircea_popescu: anyway. 150lb for 7k.
asciilifeform: any item that can pop.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these bottles are ancient and come with authentication problem.
mircea_popescu: apparently still used in aviation.
mircea_popescu: i can see why.
asciilifeform: (quite likely to be either empty, underpressure, or 'halotron' substitute.)
mircea_popescu: neways, im off.
thestringpuller: ;;later tell BingoBoingo
gribble: The operation succeeded.
deedbot: [Qntra] Miami Man Shot By Police With Hands Up, Survives -
mod6: <+shinohai> ;;later tell mod6 experiment was successful << oh hey! didn't see this before. thanks!
BingoBoingo: << Hardfork yourself to free carpentry. If you want paid don't do Jesus Profession!
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