Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-01-16 | 2015-01-18 →
decimation: I just can't imagine a future in which I will need to learn 'go' for work or pleasure
mircea_popescu: kinda my position too
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50422 @ 0.00047596 = 23.9989 BTC [+]
decimation: is this the paper in question?
decimation: ah I see that link only has a few pages of the book
mircea_popescu: "Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts" anyone here actually played planescape : torment ?
mircea_popescu: !up NomosOne
decimation: apparently usg has decided to greatly limit (not completely stop) civil forfeiture at the federal level
decimation: outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy'
assbot: Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post ... ( )
mircea_popescu: seems more like a landgrab than anything ?
decimation: how so?
decimation: well, it certainly curtails one form of civil forfeiture at the federal level, leaving a vacuum that can be filled at the state level, if the states so desire
mircea_popescu: ah you're right. originally i read it as "we'll just keep more of it".
mircea_popescu: btw decimation assbot now allows wotization, pm it !up
asciilifeform: the 'vacuum' will be filled by theft and robbery from the same place as before.
asciilifeform: because how else.
ben_vulpes: did i crash assbot?
mircea_popescu: dun think so
ben_vulpes: nope. perhaps the otp machine?
ben_vulpes: what are the semantics for working with asswot?
asciilifeform: << we've arrived at the end of the line. u.s. newspapers print articles concerning reddit threads.
assbot: This powerful Reddit thread reveals how the poor get by in America - The Washington Post ... ( )
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell manamex you're joining channels and then applying your cloak. FYI.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047268 = 9.2645 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47100 @ 0.00047621 = 22.4295 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes like in chan ? pm it !up it responds with otp, pm it !v otp
kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes test
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes 1 test
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
kakobrekla: what do you mean it doesnt work ben_vulpes ?
ben_vulpes: that link refuses to resolve for me
mircea_popescu: yeah, scam error report.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71107 @ 0.00047967 = 34.1079 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: anonymous's paste: 96220 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.
mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=252 ms
mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=248 ms
mircea_popescu: l'etrange.
kakobrekla: yes my shit banned your shit.
mircea_popescu: ban shee!
ben_vulpes: lmk if that changes, yeah?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform washington post = newspaper in the sense projects = neighbourhoods.
mircea_popescu: the hoods part, okay.
asciilifeform: then what newspaper remains in usa ?
mircea_popescu: i guess kinda blighted.
asciilifeform: wash. post is 'the other' nyt.
ben_vulpes: "newspaper" in the trad'l sense of "town rag" still exists in various municipalities. "grey lady", not so much.
mircea_popescu: more like the other Forward.
asciilifeform: these two fishwraps are almost always sold in bins together.
kakobrekla: try now ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: ty kakobrekla
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu may be thinking of 'washington times
mircea_popescu: i never heard of that one.
ben_vulpes: !rate kakobrekla 3 wot steward
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
asciilifeform: at any rate, the article is intensely lulzy
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.3:71dbfce4f8bb960b54b95894d306db892a6f30da3fc5776c31b3ef6f2f45b0c4
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 3 with note: wot steward
kakobrekla: works, cool
decimation: alright works
kakobrekla: yeah im surprised myself
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
mircea_popescu: apparently wikipedia deleted a page discussing the "forward" as a generic name for socialist publications after someone mocked obama for it.
decimation: asciilifeform: lol so apparently reddit is where bums hang out?
mircea_popescu: been saying that for a while!11
decimation: the other amusing point that the article fails to bring up: if the 'poor' must pay to live in a dense shitty city, why not move to the country?
asciilifeform: decimation: presumably, moving costs something
mircea_popescu: the poor flock to the city since the times of rabelais for the same reason : you can eat without working there.
mircea_popescu: not so in the country
decimation: if living off gov't checks anyway, wouldn't a trailer park somewhere stretch the bezzlars?
asciilifeform: decimation: another interesting fact re: usa is that rental properties are scarce to nonexistent when you walk out of the high-density areas
mircea_popescu: hmm, no testament in english ?
decimation: but the basic bitch here reminds me of something like 'heavier things are heavier'
decimation: of course someone with a spare $bil to invest in a sony movie (for example) will make $0.5 bil profit
asciilifeform: testament ?
decimation: having fifty bux means your investment options are limited to your own stomach
asciilifeform: 5k - also stomach
asciilifeform: and arguably likewise 50k.
decimation: yeah pretty much
mircea_popescu: you know you can buy stocks online these days on about 1k i think ?
asciilifeform: lol stocks
decimation: what are you gonna do? buy shares of wal-mart and hope they go up 100x?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31129 @ 0.00047521 = 14.7928 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade
ben_vulpes: i'll settle for 8%/year
mircea_popescu: decimation why 100x ? you proposed a 1bn - >1.5 bn deal.
asciilifeform: aha -that- testament
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform students (aka bums) in paris. right ?
mircea_popescu: why paris ?
decimation: even in that case, it's gonna take awhile before walmart stock goes from $1k to 1.5k
mircea_popescu: En l'an de mon trentiesme age, que toutes mes hontes j'euz beues, ne du tout fol, ne du tout saige non obstant maintes peines eues, lesquelles j'ay toutes receues soubz la main Thibault d'Aucigny ...
mircea_popescu: S'esvesque il est, signant les rues, qu'il soit le mien je le regny.
mircea_popescu: decimation films are some of the most risky investments out there you know.
decimation: yeah I'm using it as a somewhat poor example. my main point is that having $x mil to 'invest' allows one to bend over and pick up stuff that bums have no access to
mircea_popescu: i dispute this theory.
mircea_popescu: there is no significant advantage to size, and a serious problem to it.
mircea_popescu: buffett oft dwells on the matter : it's easy for krill to find a good meal, on account of being small. not so easy for whale.
asciilifeform: ^ ru translation
decimation: I suppose the principle at work here is that once one has $x, one finds no portion of x to be 'spare'
mircea_popescu: there's a decent english one by de verre
mircea_popescu: not sure if on the nets or not
mircea_popescu: decimation in any case spare works better at smaller size.
asciilifeform: rhyming translation ?
asciilifeform: (the linked one is also beautifully illustrated, as it happens)
mircea_popescu: essentially the principle being that you may find excellent "best actresses/cocksuckers", but not really "2nd best actresses/cocksuckers" in proportion.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade << iirc it's about a dime/a quarter per lot, which lot is usually 1k shares, which can easily be 100k usd.
mircea_popescu: yes, much more than say the specialst pays (specialist doesn't pay). this is inconsequential.
ben_vulpes: << if you want to be front-run
assbot: Robinhood - Zero-Commission Stock Brokerage ... ( )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the street where i live, just a year or so ago, was covered in ads '$7 / trade111!'
decimation: well, it would be a big deal if you day trade all day
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i'm willing to believe that there are newer, more appealing chumpatrons
mircea_popescu: decimation a horrible deal. imagine all the noise you'd be pouring into the market.
asciilifeform: and they all front-run.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there are at least a dozen honest online brokerages.
mircea_popescu: to those, no doubt five million internet scams.
mircea_popescu: retail is SUPPOSED to be front run for crying out loud.
decimation: asciilifeform: sure, but you are generally talking about pennies per share
asciilifeform: at any rate, why would someone with no informational-asymmetric advantage want to buy stocks ?
mircea_popescu: to invest.
decimation: because that's where the trade bots put their earnings
mircea_popescu: to acquire a portion of the productively outlayed capital i nthe country.
ben_vulpes: <decimation> [] outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy' << just look for the "apparent pedophilia rate" as evidenced by "he had kiddie pr0nz" to go up.
decimation: yeah that will be interesting
decimation: suddenly everyone will be serious drug runner/terrorist/pedo
asciilifeform: or a sudden plague of 'illegal gun'
asciilifeform: (another exception in the new law)
ben_vulpes: everyone's trivially framed.
mircea_popescu: i read it thatthey may only confiscate the guns
mircea_popescu: but not the cars/cash.
decimation: in some states (illinois) you must register all your guns with the state
assbot: Watch Reid Wiseman's Vine "Even a 50kg mass does the same flipping maneuver. “Wild” to me! #science #SpaceVine" ... ( )
assbot: Interview: Lennart Poettering | Linux Voice ... ( )
decimation: it's pretty obvious that the guy is a control freak who gets off on forcing his way
decimation: "So we started writing Systemd, and Red Hat didn’t like it at all. Red Hat management said: no, we’re going for Upstart, don’t work on that. So I said, OK, I’ll work on it in my free time. Eventually Red Hat realised that the problems we solved with Systemd were relevant, and were problems that needed to be solved, and that you couldn’t ignore them."
undata: decimation: I wasn't aware of that particular detail
undata: tragic; upstart is a much simpler alternative
decimation: "So anyway, long story short, we came to the conclusion that Upstart is conceptually wrong, and it moved at glacial speeds. It also had the problem that Canonical tried very hard to stay in control of it. They made sure, with copyright assignment, that they made it really hard to contribute, but that’s what Linux actually lives off. You get these drive-by patches, as I would call them, where people see that something is broken, or
decimation: something could be improved. They do a Git checkout, do one change, send you it and forget about it."
decimation: he tries to make a halfass technical argument against Upstart, and then whines that it's hard to make commits
decimation: later on he describes people who like systemd as "progressive" and those who reject it as 'conservative'
undata: well that lays bare the abstractions rolling around in that gourd, doesn't it
mircea_popescu: "Few pieces of software in history have been so fiercely debated as Systemd. "
mircea_popescu: really ? because why, because the author is 5 yo ?
mircea_popescu: how about you know, emacs wars ?
asciilifeform: 'In April was the jackal born, In June the rain-fed rivers swelled: 'Never in all my life,' said he, 'Have I so great a flood beheld.'' (orwell)
mircea_popescu: ". It’s growing all the time and now handles logging, device hotplugging events, networking, scheduled actions (like Cron) and much more. Almost every major Linux distribution has adopted Systemd, but there are still some unhappy campers out there,"
mircea_popescu: uhm. happy campers = the entire foss community ?
mircea_popescu: the lulz is so thick, considering the playbook is identically replayed with the gavincoin
mircea_popescu: course, the prospect is a lot grim-er for linux, but hey.
mircea_popescu: "in the most superficial level, some used -h for help, and others ––help. It’s not uniform." << i can't name a tool that doesn't actually honor both.
mircea_popescu: but a fuckwit 20something discussing how "people have not played with unix at all" is, indeed, amusing.
mircea_popescu: "LV: And you never see them again!
mircea_popescu: LP: Yeah, and this is great – these are the people you want to have, because the vast majority of patches are actually of that kind. "
mircea_popescu: "because they have no political power - and that's what you want, a lot of lemmings"
mircea_popescu: anyway, im not reding this idiocy.
asciilifeform: i read it. it was a total snore.
mircea_popescu: anyway. there's nothing wrong with the people who didn't belong in foss in the first place finding their own way out, just like there's nothing wrong with the people who have no business in bitcoin finding their own way out.
mircea_popescu: kinda why "adoption" is meaningless. i don't care for anyone to "adopt" anything i do. i might care if they change to fit to it. but otherwise, good fucking luck, there's no value in having a bunch of pacific islanders speak english as if it were the retarded language they spoke before.
mircea_popescu: let them stick to what they know and be happy.
mircea_popescu: giving inept infantrymen good horses doesn't create an elite cavalry regiment, it just creates a lot of injured horses. giving stupid people smart things doesn't make them smart. it'll just make a lot of broken smart things.
assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
mircea_popescu: both are a horrible waste of beasts.
decimation: ;;ud pidgin
gribble: | the slang spoken by the locals in hawaii. people there do not speak hawaiian, they speak pidgin. to all my mainlander "friends": stop asking me fuckin stupid ...
mircea_popescu: in any case, the entire lennart gambit is that "actually smart people won't be able to find each other in our sea of lemmings"
mircea_popescu: kinda why stuff like the wot-foss i was discussing and even gossipd are so important
decimation: well, apparently he confirmed that redhat was itself a ship of lemmings, looking for a lemming-king, and lennart was their man
mircea_popescu: but also why a certain attitude to ineptitude, from the "affirmative action", "wopmen in tech" "don't say nigger" all the way to stupidities like the equalitarism in freenode's policies is so very important. and why linus' "fuck you" is such a major thing.
mircea_popescu: it's not gratuitous, all this. it provides a very valuable signal, both to the inferior and to the superior.
mircea_popescu: every time you see someone being stupid, piss on his face. this is important for them, and it's important for me.
mircea_popescu: tolerance is not the answer to any question worth asking, and it does not serve any purpose other than the general drowning in shit. which is not a desirable outcome in any case.
mircea_popescu: better off if half the "community" gets upset and moves on to collecting bugs or digging trenches or whatever, than if programming becomes a sort of passtime for trench diggers and worm afficionados.
mircea_popescu: /endrant
mircea_popescu: in other news, << the swiss franc situation is a disaster for 100s of k's of idiot romanians who refinanced their home mortgages in swiss francs to try and capture a half of a percent less interest.
assbot: APRECIERE FRANC ELVEȚIAN: Război cu stenograme Ana Birchall - Andreea Paul | DC News | De ce se intampla ... ( )
mircea_popescu: that just turned into 20-30% more principal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00047521 = 7.9598 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: ouch.
mircea_popescu: populists in parliament having a field day over it.
mircea_popescu: arrears set to go up from 15% to 25%ish
mircea_popescu: (romania, unlike the us, actually keeps track of unserviced retail debentures)
mircea_popescu: anyway, thassall for me. have fun b-a!
ben_vulpes: does anyone know when the transaction index was added?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29000 @ 0.00047473 = 13.7672 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14586 @ 0.00047934 = 6.9917 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22014 @ 0.00048133 = 10.596 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3084 @ 0.00066737 = 2.0582 BTC [-] {10}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48186 @ 0.00048133 = 23.1934 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19794 @ 0.00048133 = 9.5274 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00048747 = 32.7824 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83100 @ 0.00048144 = 40.0077 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65200 @ 0.00048075 = 31.3449 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55503 @ 0.00049 = 27.1965 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.125 = 1.25 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22350 @ 0.00048826 = 10.9126 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00049 = 6.223 BTC [+]
mats: greek bank run, excluded from QE
assbot: Swiss shock crushes US currency broker - Jan. 16, 2015 ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00049025 = 17.8451 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 15-01-2015 21:14:09; kakobrekla: ^^ re chf, a few folks committed suicide today cause of it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31676 @ 0.00049095 = 15.5513 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16198 @ 0.00048816 = 7.9072 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33465 @ 0.00048797 = 16.3299 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7071 @ 0.00049327 = 3.4879 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29879 @ 0.00049538 = 14.8015 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66400 @ 0.00048603 = 32.2724 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Lawfare › Did Edward Snowden Call for Abolishing the Intelligence Community? ... ( )
decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.0004847 = 4.6531 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: good morning asseteers!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48550 @ 0.00049745 = 24.1512 BTC [+] {2}
davout: guten tag
davout: so, re yesterday's convo about go and c it occurs to me that b-a will eventually have to have a reviewed & signed code repo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14293 @ 0.00048366 = 6.913 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: this occurs to you through having read the logs re the new github model / how the bitcoin foundation works or independently ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22019 @ 0.00047979 = 10.5645 BTC [-] {2}
davout: well, you can't really build a good house without good bricks
mircea_popescu: read the log thread in question tho, it's instructive. about how the point is to have code signed for having been read.
davout: you don't refer to yesterday's convo do you?
davout: !s signed code
assbot: 24 results for 'signed code' :
davout: meant yesterday's log as it seems it has come up quite a few times already :D
mircea_popescu: this was a few weeks prior to the foundation's birth.
assbot: Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.
davout: ty
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25821 @ 0.00047875 = 12.3618 BTC [-]
davout: it appears that if we want to make a proper apple pie from scratch we'll have to invent the universe first
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.00005363 = 1.0726 BTC [+] {12}
mircea_popescu: which is finbe
mircea_popescu: the current universe sucks anyway.
davout: it is fine indeed
assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 01:06:05; PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable
davout: i have nfi what kind of workload it would represent to make some linux fork that's entirely reviewed, assume it'd be pretty massive
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla : can assbot match 32 char strings as keyids instead of names ?
mircea_popescu: so stuff like <mircea_popescu> !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452
mircea_popescu: <assbot> 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 is not registered in WoT.
PeterL: new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp
mircea_popescu: works so it simplifies deedbot design a lot ?
mircea_popescu: davout depends how much crap you're wiling to hoist overboard.
kakobrekla: how does it simplify ?
davout: yup
PeterL: kakobrekla: are you pointing out my horrible spelling? :)
mircea_popescu: the workload pain will probably be far exceeded by the cries of horror of the large hordes of nobodies that can no longer "innovate", in the sense their gunk is no longer included in repos
kakobrekla: <PeterL> new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp < yes, no session, recall?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla 2.1. Bot extracts the signature keyid through a process homologuous to gpg -v -v
mircea_popescu: 2.2. Bot makes a request to assbot via pm, of the format ;;gpg info --key <key currently
kakobrekla: PeterL you are missing the link ?
mircea_popescu: that way, it wouldn't have to do two steps, just directly gettrust to a keyid.
PeterL: well, for gribble I have script that runs curl and gpg and pastes the result
PeterL: for assbot, now I have to use the mouse to highlight the new link, and type the commands
PeterL: aha, now I see it
mircea_popescu: he put that in thar jus fer you :D
PeterL: that's cool, thanks
PeterL: too early, can't read yet
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> how does it simplify ? << dja see what i mean ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
kakobrekla: for which command ?
kakobrekla: i dont have gpg info command
mircea_popescu: i want !gettrust to match any 32 char string as a key rather than a name
mircea_popescu: so that !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 responds with "trust from mircea_popescu to mircea_popescu : so an so"
mircea_popescu: that way two steps become one step and that's that.
kakobrekla: ill do it for gettrust but not others
mircea_popescu: all that's needed yes ty.
PeterL: !rate kakobrekla 3 Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.kakobrekla.3:ad06b594522d33faffcdf84b870db76a3fbd1fcda55e860ddec83a58b3864168
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 3 with note: Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff
kakobrekla: amazing
PeterL: is scoopbot still running? -hi
scoopbot: Hello PeterL!
PeterL: oh, good
mircea_popescu: are you a slut scoopbot ? -slut
mircea_popescu: a well, so much for ai.
assbot: Lawfare › President Obama Comments on Back-doors in Encryption ... ( )
decimation: or to be more precise, he failed to make remarks when asked the question
mircea_popescu: ow shit i forgot the porny link.
decimation: other than vague "we work with companies who also have families", which is exactly the same argument one gets from the local mobster I presume
mircea_popescu: o hai chetty
mircea_popescu: decimation have you seen the "toasting the queen" thing ?
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu perhaps is even easier if i just allow for ?
mircea_popescu: that poor guy, he looks like a neurotic setter.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sure!
mircea_popescu: what's assbot key again ?
decimation: eh? I don't think so
mircea_popescu: decimation he goes to toast the queen. the athem's going on so queen ignores him.
mircea_popescu: lotta hay made out of how "the queen snubbed obama'. but the guy's just not very aware. which looked to me like a very very tired man that's being constantly pestered with advice and requirements by about 9 spinster women.
kakobrekla: assbot is 7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C
mircea_popescu: aka, the typical american child of 2010.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60869 @ 0.00048599 = 29.5817 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla works for me, editing this spec.
decimation: yeah, actually from his rambling answer in the linked youtube (starting 45:30), there's very little evidence obama is even aware about the 'backdoor encryption' issue at all
mircea_popescu: honestly, i don't see it's a president's job, that.
mircea_popescu: and it's not how you ask the president that question, either.
decimation: well, certainly it ought to be something he answers in writing, in detail
decimation: the trouble is there's no method to compel an answer
mircea_popescu: this is roughly the equivalent of a company with 10k cab fleet having famously a weak alternator, and some reporter asking the CEO "what about the spinny trick ?"
mircea_popescu: that's not what you say. you say, "as you may be aware, because this so and so weakness in this part of the engine that does that and this, some drivers are so and so.". guy needs an intro.
mircea_popescu: no, there shouldn't be a way to compel an answer. wtf ?!
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can there be a /n after each otp before encryption pls.
mircea_popescu: currently it bleeds into teh bash. dun wanna put an "echo "/n"" in there .
decimation: well, there's an issue of policy here, which is "is a us person allowed to communicate in a manner outside the possibility of usg interception?"
mircea_popescu: right. that should be the question. like that.
decimation: because the implication of both cameron's and obama's answer is "no"
mircea_popescu: because that's why we go to school : so we can present our inquiries in such a way that OTHER PEOPLE can fucking grok wtf we want to know
decimation: and that appears to completely contradict constitutional and court precedent
decimation: 'because terrorism'
mircea_popescu: decimation i bet you the guy does not even currently ~KNOW~ that that's what's being discussed.
decimation: cameron clearly does, but obama gave no evidence of it
mircea_popescu: because fucking aspie autistic idiot kids + total incompetent "women in journalism" ask dronign, meaningless questions
decimation: note that there are people who could ask such questions
assbot: Women's College Cancels 'Vagina Monologues' Because It Excludes Women Without Vaginas - Hit & Run : ... ( )
decimation: but the press corps is carefully selected to exclude them
mircea_popescu: camweon's a total heel. i have nfi whatabout england produces such contemptible sacks of shit. i thought blair was an exception, but apparently he was just a harbringer.
mircea_popescu: decimation so noted. why don't they ?
mircea_popescu: PeterL obviously, the idiocy's own internal logic is its downfall. kinda the problem with all insanity.
decimation: because the civil service would exclude access to that journalist's organization
PeterL: right, lol
mircea_popescu: decimation i propose excluding that entire thing.
mircea_popescu: !up chetty
mircea_popescu: chetty try it in here so we see ?
chetty: !v assbot:chetty.up:ef543cc75b665e6c256ba24daf682446e46a10a97d497ef0f6258a61671a362
assbot: Invalid verfication string.
PeterL: somebody is trying to hack into chetty's account?
chetty: it doesnt like me
mircea_popescu: that string's too short.
mircea_popescu: missing 9 chars.
chetty: what my key has been hax
kakobrekla: try that in private ?
mircea_popescu: it's the missing /n at en of otp giving all sorts of people hell
mircea_popescu: because gotta recover the end of the key from their bash string
decimation: cameron said "as technology develops, as the world moves on, we should try to avoid safehavens that can otherwise be created for terrorists to talk to each other"
kakobrekla: otp !up should work only on private
kakobrekla: chan !up is for non otp use
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im pretty sure i v'd here.
kakobrekla: !up Anduck
kakobrekla: !down Anduck
mircea_popescu: !v dude. !v.
assbot: Invalid verfication string.
kakobrekla: a yes, v you can you anywhere
decimation: perhaps that quote should be gossipd's motto
mircea_popescu: decimation could well be lol.
mircea_popescu: decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve << well, usg entities that deal in bitcoin do have such reprieve currently ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55000 @ 0.00047492 = 26.1206 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: some elements of usg would claim otherwise
mircea_popescu: heck, the us scammer office (previously marshall's office) doesn't have to answer foia if it doesn't feel like it, and can even lie in public statements.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it, so can the da.
mircea_popescu: seems to me like pretty complete legal immunity.
decimation: in theory, usg has no legal immunity (from criminal courts), but in practice it clearly does
mircea_popescu: for as long as that lasts lol.
assbot: Sovereign immunity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
mircea_popescu: this is universal.
mircea_popescu: bitbet has it as well. so does every other country.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't look like it should be legal.,
mircea_popescu: it's too complicated.
kakobrekla: yeah ill prolly end up in jail
mircea_popescu: move to hungary. i hear they're going all fascist.
PeterL: there was talk earlier about newspapers. I find good local reporting at and my sister-in-law writes for
assbot: Michigan Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - ... ( )
assbot: Tooele Transcript Bulletin – News in Tooele, Utah ... ( )
mircea_popescu: lol i read that as "toe online" was o.O
PeterL: lol
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu check new line if fixed?
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 17 hurr
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 1.7 hurr
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: lmao fractions rly ?
kakobrekla: try it
kakobrekla: see what happens
decimation: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal
assbot: You can not rate yourself.
mircea_popescu: fixed tyvm
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.1.7:b40b7beddd0f6b2f45874cb24cdb3dcd9c051c5c9727a4b306b1f115729982a0
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 5 to 1.7 with note: hurr
mircea_popescu: lmao wut
PeterL: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: this is not a bug.
mircea_popescu: it's a future.
decimation: me thinks there might be some bugs
PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.decimation.0.1:17d02404cae9e530dcd5e82a06dad23963c9560e9b0530d785bd01da78a11710
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 0.1 for decimation with note: marginal
mircea_popescu: nah srsly. kakobrekla dun bother fixing
PeterL: so, if somebody has < 1 L2 rating, they don't get voice? or it just has to be > 0?
mircea_popescu: > 0 i hope.
kakobrekla: !gettrust kakobrekla
assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user kakobrekla: ∞ |
mircea_popescu: !gettrust kakobrekla
assbot: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 54 via 32 connections. | |
kakobrekla: i think it didnt work
mircea_popescu: o look it rounds ?
PeterL: !gettrust decimation
assbot: Trust relationship from user PeterL to user decimation: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | |
PeterL: rounds down?
kakobrekla: no, it did not work, comment is unchanged
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 5 too much stuff to list. inquire within..
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
PeterL: !rated decimation
assbot: You rated user decimation on 17-Jan-2015, with a rating of 0, and supplied these additional notes: marginal.
PeterL: see, rounded down
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.5:4854d908f615d0a4735169e307d17352740d17b15f4608f0200d018f6683baad
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 5 with note: too much stuff to list. inquire within..
mircea_popescu: baad eh ?
mircea_popescu: PeterL i guess 1.7 -> 2 0.1 -> 0
PeterL: so it lets you input a fraction, but converts to int?
kakobrekla: why are you asking me, do you think i know ?
kakobrekla goes to look the code
davout: b-a is so mean, kakobrekla makes something nice, everyone tries to break it
PeterL: you made it?
mircea_popescu: it was his twin brother.
PeterL: the more we disclose now leaves less suprises later
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 144 @ 0.00734105 = 1.0571 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: he's just jealous we care.
kakobrekla: !rate assbot -1.1
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
mircea_popescu: nonzero integer
kakobrekla: should say int but whatever.
mircea_popescu: yeah no big deal
PeterL: so no more decimals?
PeterL hangs head in shame
assbot: Decentralising mining: Making P2Pool more lucrative by coinbaseless fees? : Bitcoin ... ( )
fluffypony: "The alert key will be raised by Gavin"
fluffypony: don't worry guize, Gavin will save err'one
PeterL: !up chetty
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00069999 = 1.4 BTC [-]
PeterL: !up Panadol______
PeterL: hi Panadol______ , what brings you here today?
mircea_popescu: !up bitspill
mircea_popescu: !up McNumpty
mircea_popescu: !up mats
mats: a hello
mats: !s dnssec
assbot: 15 results for 'dnssec' :
mircea_popescu: << if anyone in london wants to host a retiring escort...
assbot: Dear All, My name is Coco, I am a 20 year old Chinese girl and I have just arrived fr ... ( )
assbot: Against DNSSEC — Quarrelsome ... ( )
mircea_popescu: seems you can't be black tho.
mircea_popescu: mats all good points.
mircea_popescu: we stand against dns and against govt-sponsored pki schemes. their combination is not likely to resolve that.
mircea_popescu: (well minus the "modern crypto uses ecdsa")
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00048985 = 10.2869 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: good morning terrorists
mircea_popescu: hi terror brother ben
ben_vulpes: buenos dias
ben_vulpes: the apartment complex drain backed up
ben_vulpes: i awoke to sewage leaking around the bathtub plug actuator
mircea_popescu: this somehow brings to mind iron maiden
ben_vulpes: it's a Good Morning in America™
assbot: Iron Maiden - Holy Smoke - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: you know you can assbot selfvoice ?
mircea_popescu: "I've lived in filth, I've lived in sin, but I still smell cleaner than the shit you're in"
gabriel_laddel: Any #-assets members who will admit to being a fan of supreme commander or total annihilation?
mircea_popescu: total commander ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00049959 = 12.8395 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: supreme annihilation's a pretty fun game
ben_vulpes: need the right partners tho
ben_vulpes eyes p. bahaha
assbot: [OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: actually the supreme commander thing looks pretty slick.
assbot: Total Annihilation Intro (brighter) - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: somehow i've never played either.
gabriel_laddel: they're in the same vein of games such as diablo I&II, baulders gate, path of exile etc. Not in terms of gameplay, but overall attention to detail and cohesive structure.
mircea_popescu: !up Tykling
mircea_popescu: they look more like tower defense / dune2 sort of thing to me /
mircea_popescu: baldur's gate btw!
undata: ben_vulpes: we have a buddy with an extensible IRC bot; how's that raw tx backport coming?
undata: er archaeology and re-implementation
undata: actually, it appears it would only have to be aware that a tx has occurred, not send any
ben_vulpes: undata: if you're interested in implementing, talk to MP for the spec
ben_vulpes: i don't really know how the transmission of btc is supposed to work for the thing
undata: it'd be neat if the thing paid its own bills out of its fees on some btc vps
ben_vulpes: probably want to decouple bot from funding actions
ben_vulpes: anyways
ben_vulpes: tx backport archaeology's an interesting thing
ben_vulpes: i'm starting to see some of the rationale behind the wallet paradigm - creating transactions for signing requires being able to retrieve arbitrary transactions from the blockchain
danielpbarron: i'd say TA is more like starcraft
ben_vulpes: far easier for the people working on it at the time to make some silly assumptions about what txns a user would want to sign, and then keep those txns on hand
ben_vulpes: creating a raw transaction requires having the previous transaction in hand in full at runtime, so as to extract the pubkey from the previous transaction
ben_vulpes: while this isn't *strictly* necessary, it's how things work now.
ben_vulpes: i don't know that a bitcoind would be able to verify a transaction without access to the full inputs
danielpbarron: i thought all you need to know is the tx id of the outputs you want to use, the private keys of the coresponding addresses, a destination, and an amount
ben_vulpes: to use the modern txn api, yeah
ben_vulpes: to verify that you've created a valid transaction, you have to have the entirety of the previous output on hand to examine the public key
ben_vulpes: otherwise you just sign hash of txn, index in txn, and have no way to double check that you produced a valid signature corresponding to the pubkey to which those funds were transmitted originally.
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: make sense?
ben_vulpes: (one can sign anything at any time - that's not the problem. the problems crop up in a) knowing the sigs are valid and b) the multi-input, multi-privkey transaction generation use-case: how am i to know which privkeys are to be used to sign which inputs, and furthermore [and somewhat recursively] how do i know those signatures to be valid?)
danielpbarron: what are you signing it with?
ben_vulpes: a user-supplied privkey.
danielpbarron: the one that goes with the pubkey of the output right/
ben_vulpes: how do i get the pubkey for a given output?
ben_vulpes: say i have the transaction hash (aka txid) and output index - how do i get the pubkey those coins were sent to?
danielpbarron: this is for deedbot right? don't you already know what the last pubkey was?
ben_vulpes: no no no
ben_vulpes: raw transactions
ben_vulpes: *entirely* different project
danielpbarron: oh well yeah you need to know the whole blockchain to verify a tx in that case
danielpbarron: i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee
asciilifeform: sorta the point of having blockchain, no ?
ben_vulpes: "whole blockchain" << and more specifically, a trivial lookup of txids
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc, i did mention 'can pull up arbitrary tx' as part of what a 'whole bitcoin node' has to do
asciilifeform: perhaps i should have given more proof
ben_vulpes pissing on fences
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes not dead, therefore grew stronger
ben_vulpes: learned some
ben_vulpes: brain now contains c++, not sure if improvement
asciilifeform: at any rate, there is really no way to understand the thing other than - reading it
asciilifeform: however unpleasant
ben_vulpes: <danielpbarron> i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee << heinous
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00050221 = 26.2656 BTC [+] {3}
davout: danielpbarron: iirc with the raw tx thing you can send zero fees without problem, there's however a safeguard against sending a massive fee
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 0.125 = 1.125 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> danielpbarron: make sense? << yes, that's what that is.
assbot: Remove gender specific language · 496f026 · cinchrb/cinch · GitHub ... ( )
undata: davout: it's ruby; let them have it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55900 @ 0.00048731 = 27.2406 BTC [-] {2}
davout: undata: i like ruby :)
undata: eh alright
ben_vulpes: nevermind that them/their is actually incorrect grammar if not used in reference to more than one person
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45900 @ 0.00048471 = 22.2482 BTC [-] {2}
davout: ben_vulpes: wasn't sure about that, I assumed a weakness in my own english since no one brought that up, but it did sound slightly weird, thanks for clearing it up!
Apocalyptic: looks like a valid "singular they" to me, "valid" in the grammatical sense
ben_vulpes: it's only ever pushed by "anti sexists"
ben_vulpes: as a valid construct.
ben_vulpes: a plural cannot by definition be a singular thing.
ben_vulpes: if you don't know the gender, say "his or her"
ben_vulpes: "their" implies more than one party.
punkman: it works :)
punkman: ben_vulpes, I think "their/they" was being used long before the queers adopted it
ben_vulpes: "pushed by" not "initiated by". furthermore, doesn't make the usage somehow acceptable.
ben_vulpes: not that anyone should expect a "developer" to understand how to write english well - it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study.
ben_vulpes: as someone somewhere once said "i don't hire developers who spell well, i hire developers who mispell consistently."
asciilifeform: it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study << only for folks who do not read for pleasure in the particular language.
kakobrekla: fuck i read
kakobrekla: and i like it
kakobrekla: still spell for shit
kakobrekla: spill i mean
kakobrekla: speal
davout: kakobrekla: would it be hard to make links such as work with keyids as well as fingerprints?
kakobrekla: keyids are evil
davout: yea, i was reading gpg's rfc yesterday and found out that they aren't supposed to be relied upon for unicity
kakobrekla has nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db
davout: thing is, i was also reading mp's deedbot spec, the part i was wondering about was the "extract keyid from signed message, and use it in URL"
kakobrekla: replace keyid with fp ?
davout: kakobrekla: "nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db" <<< if you keep the fingerprint you're automatically keeping the key id as far as i understand since the key id is simply the second half of the fpr
kakobrekla: last 16 chars iirc
kakobrekla: out of 40
davout: "replace keyid with fp ?" <<< sure, but how do i get the fpr from a signed message? gpg -v -v will just return the key id
kakobrekla: --fingerprint ?
davout: that would work when listing keys, i can't seem to get it work when piping a clearsigned msg to "gpg -v -v --fingerprint"
punkman: --with-fingerprint maybe
davout: s/it xork/it to work/
davout: derp
kakobrekla: cunt spill fer shut!
undata: ben_vulpes: them being the feminists you pedant
undata: :p
kakobrekla: davout idk worst case some awk and pipes ?
undata: ben_vulpes: hah oh the commit
undata: carry on then
davout: punkman: doth not work
undata: as for english as I delve into a few other languages on duolingo I find my native tongue ever more horrifying
undata: a shantytown cobbled together with the leftovers of other cultures
davout: if i don't have the key in my own keyring it doesn't seem possible to extract the fingerprint from a signed message
undata: however thouse german articles are going to do me in
kakobrekla: davout you can search keyserver perhps, but starting the search wherever with keyid instead of fp is not best idea
Apocalyptic: davout, yeah but anyway you would have the key in your keyring since you have to validate the sig
Apocalyptic: so this is a false problem
davout: it's always possible to query gribble to get the mapping, but that seems... suboptimal
punkman: davout, there is some combination of options that will do it for sure, you can look in python-gnupg
kakobrekla: the point is MAPPING is bad
undata: davout: you're not going to write it in ruby are you?
undata: pls no
davout: Apocalyptic: "you have to validate the sig" <<< no i don't think so
kakobrekla: doesnt matter WHERE you do it
undata: I've got a friend with a decent golang bot on github
Apocalyptic: davout, wait, so you're going to publish the deed without checking the signature is legit ?
davout: Apocalyptic: yeah, i think mp mentioned somewhere that verifying the sig is not necessary
undata considers the silence an affirmative...
punkman: pretty sure it has to be verified
davout: kakobrekla: i agree, it's bad if you rely on keyids to actually identify the key, but if you output the actual full fingerprints in the returned json one can make an educated choice
davout: punkman: mebbe i'm wrong here, lemme try and find a reference
Apocalyptic: sounds to me like a dubious choice but heh, if mp sez so
Apocalyptic: I can see a quite unpleasant spam attack otherwise
kakobrekla: which json is that ?
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya
kakobrekla: you mean you input keyid and i output fp
kakobrekla: you still need to check i didnt give you garbage no
davout: yeah, i put fpr or keyid in url, you spit out the fpr, actually no that's dumb
assbot: kyleterry/tenyks · GitHub ... ( )
davout: lemme think moar
kakobrekla: undata is it decoupled?
undata: yeah
undata: you'd write the deed bit as a plugin
kakobrekla: not what i mean
assbot: extempore/deedbundler · GitHub ... ( )
punkman: (some updates and docs coming in next couple days)
kakobrekla: decoupled bot means that the connection process is seperate from all others
davout: what *is* specified is that the bot must verify that the signer has L1/L2 assbot trust, looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature
undata: kakobrekla: yes, that's what I meant
undata: the networking core is one thing, and plugins communicate with that over redis
undata: plugins can be started and stopped independently of the core
kakobrekla: redis eh
punkman: kakobrekla: can haz asswot dump?
kakobrekla will one day recode assbot with zmq
kakobrekla: punkman ill set up a daily dump to files.b-a
punkman: kewl
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25000 @ 0.00049101 = 12.2753 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: davout, so you're taking the deedbot project ?
undata: to summarize what's desired, the bot accepts signed documents from wot members in good standing only, publishes them by burning a small amount of btc and uploading to a site?
davout: Apocalyptic: i've started poking at it yep
davout: undata: it doesn't burn the bitcoins
davout: other than that your understanding seems correct to me
undata: ah you're right
undata: the hash is the privkey
undata: derp
undata: seems like the parties wishing to publish should provide coin to the deedbot operator
davout: not really sure why it has to be restricted to asseteers but w/e
undata: davout: the deeds are presumably for business arrangements
undata: the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those
davout: oh, and it's ppl who have L1/L2 trust from assbot, a subset from the wot members sez the spec
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( )
davout: undata: "the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those" <<< sure, but i'm not sure why the notarization *tool* would enforce that, i defo don't feel strongly enough about it to argue the point either way
undata: davout: not my rationale; speculating on what it might be
Apocalyptic: davout, re "looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature" I suspect there actually is, playing with the source atm
Apocalyptic: grep "get_short_fingerprint" in verify.c and see the related call get_fingerprint_hexstring() which supposedly could get the full fp
davout: Apocalyptic: looking at the rfc to see the clearsigned message structure
davout: Apocalyptic: RFC 5.2.2 sez a signature packet contains "Eight-octet Key ID of signer"
Apocalyptic: then it's settled I guess
kakobrekla: basically it says you are fucked
davout: o/
davout: pretty much
davout: so basically the options are
davout: - alter spec and add a gribble dependency
Apocalyptic: I wonder what the behaviour is if you have two pubkeys in your keyring with the same eight bytes key id and you're trying to verify a message
davout: - maintain a full asswot keyring on deedbot's server
davout: - not give a fuck about who signed a to-be-notarized blob
punkman: Apocalyptic: you can find keys with keyid collisions here
assbot: coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( )
davout: - allow unsigned blobs to be notarized
Apocalyptic: the second seems like a reasonable choice
davout: - the last option is kakobrekla getting some moar work
Apocalyptic: punkman, thanks for the link, but I mean that there should be something in the clearsigned message structures that clearly identifies the key that produced it
punkman: I think there is, but not 100% sure
davout: well, apparently not
Apocalyptic: well according to what davout said there is just the 8 bytes
Apocalyptic: which is clearly not a canonical identification
Apocalyptic: I confess that surprises me, had imagined the full fp would be somewhere
davout: looked at version 3 signature packets, mebbe version 4 includes them
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 175 @ 0.00651001 = 1.1393 BTC [+]
davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec isn't that clear to me, maybe asciilifeform has some insight
davout: kakobrekla: is there a way to easily get an array of asswotted fingerprints?
punkman: dabout, just tested it
assbot: dpaste: 3PDW8YM ... ( )
kakobrekla: daiily db dump?
davout: punkman: well, you're requesting a public key, so of course it works :-)
undata: the dump seems like the most straightforward thing to me
undata: signed by kakobrekla of course
davout: kakobrekla: if a 24h delay between asswot registration and ability to notarize is acceptable that would work
davout: it still boils down to a fpr <-> keyid mapping tho, not that this is evil _for this particular purpose_ but still
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26850 @ 0.00049379 = 13.2583 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: the problem with signing that dump is automation and keeping the key on boxen
davout: kakobrekla: tbh if verifying the signature on notarized data is not considered necessary i don't think it's a big issue if the dump is unsigned
punkman: davout: you are right, doesn't work with clearsigned message
undata: why is it not necessary to verify signatures before notarizing?
punkman: so I guess v4 sigs don't have fingerprints either
davout: but if you'd be ok with having some API call simply return the array of fingerprints in realtime, that'd be the easiest deedbot-wise :D
undata: davout: isn't the whole point of a notary verifying the identities of the parties involved then verifying that an agreement has taken place?
undata: or have I missed something
davout: undata: i didn't spec it, ask mp for the rationale ->
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya
davout: undata: the notary doesn't enforce the agreement so why bother verifying the signature at all
undata: well he's saying ask gribble
undata: that makes sense
davout: for all i care the bot could hang out in -assets, and notarize whatever is asked from whoever has voice, sounds like the simplest straight-to-the-point approach to me
undata: I don't like it
davout: well, let's light some jasmine candles and talk about our feelings then
undata: so you're going to rely on the IRC protocol and not gpg?
undata: the fuck is the point of even having gpg involved then?
undata: and how does one move the process to another protocol later
undata: that's dumb
davout: because the notary doesn't enforce or verify anything, just certifies that something existed at some point of time
undata: surely one can do better than stamping any turd that comes along
undata: anyhow do it your way
undata: I'm hacking on it as well
davout: lol
davout: the thing is that, whatever turd comes along is necessarily given by someone who has voice in assets, so by very definition, not a turd
undata: davout: because no one ever once was opped in a chan that shouldn't have been
undata: use your head.
davout: meh, it's not like that person could steal stuff or anything
undata: says the bridge builder to the parties on either side "eh, fuck it, whatever"
davout: i mean, even in that case, what's the worst that could happen? specifically?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3596 @ 0.00068279 = 2.4553 BTC [-] {12}
undata: davout: a notary is not just a person with a clock and eyes
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3933 @ 0.0006596 = 2.5942 BTC [-] {21}
undata: part of the service is actually having an idea of what has transpired, sort of renting out your good name
undata: ? and ? did *whatever*
undata: ^not a valuable service
undata: or I'll go sit on a park bench and call myself a notary
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1925 @ 0.00063202 = 1.2166 BTC [-] {2}
davout: look, there is a reason it's called deedbot, and not notarybot, it's none of deedbot's business to know what happened, for all you know the notarized stuff could perfectly be encrypted
davout: what then? you refuse to process it?
undata: two parties presented themselves to me and both said "I agree to whatevers in this blob"
undata: I have witnessed that fact and I sign and note the time
undata: yes that's fine
davout: that's not what tell you, they tell you 'this blob existed at that point of time, what's in it is none of your business'
undata: agreeing it existed is an agreement...
undata: you are being dense; go hack
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27509 @ 0.00049673 = 13.6645 BTC [+]
undata: whether it says inside "A owes B his kidney" or "The sky is blue" both can be held to account that they have made the utterance by the existince of the thing
undata: less so if the witness did not bother to verify identity
davout: the point is to timestamp stuff, not hold anyone accountable to anybody other than by the actual parties to the contract, what's so hard about that?
undata: no, it's to timestamp that an agreement occurred between two identified parties
undata: I'm done arguing
davout: lol, where does the spec even mention a second party?
undata: davout: why are they published?
davout: lol yes
undata: ... that's not an answer to my question
undata: why does one publish the signed blobs
undata: what's the point of that? in human terms?
davout: umm... to timestamp them
undata: god you're dumb
undata: davout: what is the point of publishing a scientific work in a credible journal?
davout: i think we should've stuck to lighting these jasmine candles :-)
undata: davout: lest you have to think about anything other than rubbing some ruby together
undata: the reputation of the orifice matters and is maintained by not shoveling shit out into the public forum
davout: ...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8391 @ 0.00049623 = 4.1639 BTC [-]
undata: davout: surely you understand that the wot quantifies what a deed may provide historicity
undata: say you and I make an agreement and you fail to execute your side
undata: I negrate you
undata: doesn't our agreement being public and with firm verification of identity bolster my claim among peers that you're a knucklehead?
asciilifeform: davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec << what do you want to know about it ?
assbot: RFC 4880 - OpenPGP Message Format ... ( )
davout: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was reading, it mentions user ids in the subpackets spec, but i'm unsure whether that includes an actual key fingerprint, i tend to understand that it doesn't
davout: (pretty interesting read btw)
asciilifeform: davout: nope. key id.
kakobrekla: any good reason for this ?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: none afaik. the standard simply sucks.
kakobrekla: i was afraid you gonna say that.
davout: lol
asciilifeform: 'it saves a few bytes' probably sounded like 'good reason' to the authors.
kakobrekla: nsa only has so much disk space.
asciilifeform: or, alternatively, like the choice of 'aes' over the stronger but 'slower' 'serpent' cipher, it was merely orders from lizardhitler.
davout: "Implementations SHOULD NOT assume that Key IDs are unique", so let's just include that in the signature packet. derp
asciilifeform: davout: a little subtler than that. the original assumption was that you would only ever verify sigs from folks you had a proper key party with
asciilifeform: and hence have a reasonably confident idea of genuine key for.
davout: which makes sense
asciilifeform: hence the 'key id' was meant as merely a soft handle to quickly pick out the right pubkey.
kakobrekla: fuckin key party and assumption of socialization
asciilifeform: rather than something to resist attack of any kind
asciilifeform: original pgp was not an apparatus for one-off deals with strangers, but something to use between friends, as i understand.
davout: and i guess even in the case of a keyid collision that has no impact on actual signature verification
asciilifeform: davout: correct
asciilifeform: davout: assuming it was an accidental collision, and that you have not entered a properly, maliciously crafted pubkey into your keychain that it -will- verify with
asciilifeform: if that makes sense
asciilifeform: the keychain thing nicely parallels ben_vulpes's discussion re: bitcoind wallets
asciilifeform: if it seems asinine, it is because it was designed for a certain pattern of use, which does not apply now.
davout: that doesn't make much sense to me, how would a maliciously crafted pubkey even verify the signature?
asciilifeform: davout: only if the signature was in fact made with evilkey
asciilifeform: davout: picture if you were trying to pass a document off as having been signed by X. you generate a key with the correct name, etc. and colliding keyid, then try to pass it off as the genuine article; then, when chumps swallow it, sign with it
asciilifeform: and naturally the sigs will verify
asciilifeform: this is considerably harder (in practice, likely impossible) with fp instead of id
asciilifeform: but rfc4880 does not specify that fp ought to be embedded in sigs.
asciilifeform: and so they weren't.
asciilifeform: hence this thread.
davout: the signature verification would in this case (assuming both keys are in the keyring) yield both a pass and a fail, right?
davout: ;;calc 2^64
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
davout: ;;calc 2**64
gribble: 18446744073709551616
davout: that would be the number of distinct keyids, not sure how practically feasible it would be to bruteforce a collision
Apocalyptic: 2**64 is well within reach of a supercomputer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35709 @ 0.00050049 = 17.872 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: just take the bitcoin network, it performs 2**64 hashes in 60 seconds at current hashrate if I'm not mistaken
davout: i see
Apocalyptic: and that's just for a preimage, if you want a collision the birthday paradox will tell you that you need much less than that
ben_vulpes: <kakobrekla> [] fuckin key party and assumption of socialization << another kakobrekla line worth reposting
davout: well, if you want to pull off an attack on someone you'll want to get a collision with a specific key id
punkman: davout, see cooper-pair link, has various PoCs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11847 @ 0.00048378 = 5.7313 BTC [-]
davout: !s cooper-pair
assbot: 0 results for 'cooper-pair' :
assbot: Obama Sides with Cameron in Encryption Fight - Digits - WSJ ... ( )
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: 'key escrow' crapolade went out with the first clinton presidency, will probably return with the second.
asciilifeform: (third)
Apocalyptic: can't wait
davout: "sure you can escrow my key, wanna make sure it's mine? just check the keyid"
undata: asciilifeform: after the next attack they'll ram all kind of laws through around weakining crypto
undata: *ening
undata: because terrorists can't find an old copy of gpg?
asciilifeform: undata: at some point it will be forbidden in usa to sell or even own a computer which can meaningfully run classic gpg
asciilifeform: this is a considerably less-fantastic scenario than it would have appeared to be in the '90s, because of the 'nintendoization' of computing. gpg simply won't appear in the apple and microshit 'app stores' and thereby vanish
nanotube: kakobrekla: i have no idea why i keep keyid as a separate column in db either. probably something grandfathered in...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.0004938 = 18.715 BTC [+] {2}
undata: asciilifeform: not far-fetched at all
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9154 @ 0.00048378 = 4.4285 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8507 @ 0.00050465 = 4.2931 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65131 @ 0.00048038 = 31.2876 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: davout everyone can now be a "developer". even idiots.
PeterL: even me :)
davout: mircea_popescu: o hey, what are you referring to?
mircea_popescu: the "o look mom, i made a github commit. it changes the spelling of comments" thing
mircea_popescu: PeterL there's a difference between the innocent and the stupid.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22950 @ 0.00050894 = 11.6802 BTC [+] {2}
PeterL: wait, which am I?
davout: ah, yea lol, i had a look to see if this chick had any other commits on the project, seems like it's her sole 'contribution' to the whole thing
mircea_popescu: davout no matter, "core contributor" nao.
mircea_popescu: whole slew of these, the cleaning lady wants to be "part of the team" nao.
davout: by this account i'm a core contributor to bitcoin too, i reset testnet once, fuck it
mircea_popescu: PeterL weren't you a biochemist by trade dabbling into code as a hobby recently ?
asciilifeform: not cleaning lady. demented bomzh who breaks into the office and takes a shit in the coffee pot.
PeterL: chemist, yes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is what us cleaning lady does.
mircea_popescu: PeterL so you'd be the innocent.
mircea_popescu: at least until proof to the contrary.
PeterL: ok, I'll take that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they don't have cleaning ladies in the classic sense, which is why conde nast is writing memos to the "journos" about keeping the place clean.
mircea_popescu: apparently nobody heard of a ""
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what is this. every office park where i live has cleaners.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 100% 'spanish'
mircea_popescu: same here, but who the fuck knows what they do in the soviet republic of san francisco.
mircea_popescu: yoga class, probably.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: keyids are evil << yeh davout. stop thinking about short keyids bs.
davout: well, i was just reading about them in the deedbot spec
davout: i'll let you read the convo
mircea_popescu: i just have.
mircea_popescu: what do you mean gpg doesn't return them ?!
davout: it does, it doesn't however return fingerprints
mircea_popescu: ok but then gpg --fingerprint | grep "keid" ?
davout: that implies you have the key in your keyring
mircea_popescu: one more reason gpg has to be rewritten i guess.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck did this i have nfi.
asciilifeform: everybody here understands difference between how key id and fp are calculated ?
asciilifeform: and yes, it's retarded
mircea_popescu: ah it's there.
mircea_popescu: nah nah.
assbot: $ gpg -v -v --with-fingerprint gpg: Go ahead and type your message ... -----BE - ... ( )
davout: asciilifeform: well, keyid is a part of the fpr afaik
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keyid is the last 16 chars of the 40 char fignerprint. and then there's an 8 char shit too. neither of these last two are any good, but hey, "usability". crap.
mircea_popescu: for the innocents reading logs.
assbot: Evil 32: Check Your GPG Fingerprints ... ( )
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: the point is MAPPING is bad << he understands.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8350 @ 0.0005114 = 4.2702 BTC [+] {2}
davout: mircea_popescu: try with this guy ->
Apocalyptic: mircea, what is your pastebin supposed to show ?
davout: if you don't have the key in your ring it won't know the fpr
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic the fingerprint, penultimate line.
undata: davout is right
Apocalyptic: it does show "Primary key fingerprint: 6160 E1CA C8A3 C529 66FD 7699 8A73 6F0E 2FB7 B452" because you have you own key in your keyring obviously
Apocalyptic: go try it on a system you have no
mircea_popescu: davout if you don';t have the key you can't verify signatures, dork!
davout: lol, deedbot isn't supposed to verify sigs amirite
Apocalyptic: well this was the whole point of the discussion
Apocalyptic: and according to davout it's not supposed ot verify
undata: ^ this enraged me
undata is open to correction
davout: i could tell
mircea_popescu: well apparently it just became required to verify cause otherwise it can't talk to assbot.
mircea_popescu: accidental spec!
davout: mircea_popescu: with the fingerprint for a key it could simply do what you said wrt requesting trust data as a json blob from the thing
davout: s/for a key/for a sig/
mircea_popescu: davout but assbot won't respond unless he queries by fingerprints.
davout: yea that's the whole problem
mircea_popescu: IF gpg doesn't put out full fingerprints for verified keys, then gpg is broken
mircea_popescu: gpg: Signature made Sat 21 Aug 1999 07:04:31 PM ART using DSA key ID 8ACE3E79
mircea_popescu: gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found
davout: the crux is 'verified keys', if deedbot doesn't maintain a full keyring at all times it can't pull fingerprints
davout: this sounds a bit overkill to me
mircea_popescu: defo the gpg signature model is bad.
mircea_popescu: feel free to fork and fix the gpg key verification process so it reports fingerpritns properly not wtf it's doing now.
davout: gpg can't know the fpr for a key it doesn't have, the information isn't part of the signature packet
Apocalyptic: mircea, note that neither the "-v" nor the "--with-fingerprint" flags are required to get the fingerprint line displayed
mircea_popescu: who the fuck did thius.
Apocalyptic: ^ I asked myself the same
assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 22:34:54; davout: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was reading, it mentions user ids in the subpackets spec, but i'm unsure whether that includes an actual key fingerprint, i tend to understand that it doesn't
mircea_popescu: dude rms, you saved 24 bytes aren't you a smart fucking cookie.
mircea_popescu: davout only possible workaround seems keeping the lordship keys.
PeterL: would it be hard to maintain a keyring with all us in it?
undata: no
Apocalyptic: that's what punkman's bot did afaik
mircea_popescu: which i guess is not that bad, seeing how it also solves the problem of the untrustworthy pgp-sks etc
davout: anyway, my point wrt to deedbot is that it's supposed to be used by ppl with L1/L2 trust, it doesn't need to check gpg signatures, so let anyone with +v in -assets use it, do away with the requirement that a keyid belonging to someone in assbot's wot be presented or maliciously hammered into the message
mircea_popescu: so i guess ima have to modify the spec instead of finishing my "on terrorism' article.
mircea_popescu: davout how do you propose to query assbot for l1/l2 inclusion ?
davout: whoever has voice in -assets shall be deemed worthy to notarize
mircea_popescu: no, it's not ok to overload voice like that.
undata: this was my entire rant
davout: greatly simplifies the problem, don't see too much downside to it, and we're eventually moving to gossipd anyway
mircea_popescu: i give voice to all the whores, not to mention all sorts of known usg agents
PeterL: but you would still need keys to verify deed signatures?
undata: why should gpg exist; irc is apparently all we ever needed
mircea_popescu: PeterL original spec didn't call for that.
davout: and notary would be connected through asswot's gossipd's node anyway
PeterL: oh, do deeds even need to be gpg signed?
mircea_popescu: davout undata gossipd can well be a year or two away.
mircea_popescu: PeterL yes.
undata: mircea_popescu: I am being facetious, and argued earlier for sig verification
davout: let whores timestamp some blobs now and then i say
undata: I'm hacking on something now, but will wait for an updated spec
PeterL: why sign if you are not verifying?
mircea_popescu: incoming.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10900 @ 0.00050843 = 5.5419 BTC [-]
davout: undata: you fail to comprehend that it's not deedbot's job to certify to a third party that the contract is signed by an identified party, gpg already does that
davout: wrt to your earlier example of me scamming you, anybody can verify i signed the contract by using gpg itself
undata: davout: its output should be the history of valid deeds, not "that which a rubber stamp has touched"
davout: why the hell would it need deedbot to testify to that too ?
undata: god... do the proceedings of court note that a pidgeon shat on the window?
davout: that didn't parse
davout: it did derp
undata: have you ever been to a notary?
davout: why do you absolutely want to shoehorn your conception of a notary into deedbot?
undata: do you know what a deed is?
undata: or why one has it observed by a 3rd party?
undata: and signed as such
davout: we don't need Z to witness that X and Y signed a contract together, because any party can and will use GPG
davout: and properly verify that fact
davout: why would Z's word add any value to the information GPG outputs?
punkman: it doesn't really, but it's useful nonetheless
undata: keeps the published bundles down to a size that is manageable
undata: keeps it from being filled with useless crud with invalid sigs
davout: wtf is this size bzns?
undata: size for hands and eyeballs to verify
Apocalyptic: <undata> keeps it from being filled with useless crud with invalid sigs << this sounds pretty reasonable
undata: not disk space
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00050726 = 7.6596 BTC [-]
punkman: davout, I'll just say that there were many cases with invalid signatures posted as deeds
assbot: [OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets, updated. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
davout: the whole point here is to let ppl with L2/L1 trust timestamp stuff
davout: and only them
mircea_popescu: not and only them.
mircea_popescu: the point is to let them create and let the whole world trust and be able to verify.
mircea_popescu: its point is enacting privilege, not segregation.
davout: what is privilege if not the differentiation from the un-privileged?
undata: mircea_popescu: I read the payment as coming from the party wanting a signature, not the bot?
undata: or no
undata: seems fair to me; pay per use
mircea_popescu: undata no, payment comes from teh boty.
undata: whyssat?
mircea_popescu: but dun worry about it, i seeded the prev one an' ill seed this one too.
mircea_popescu: davout it gotta be one way. if there's four people and they fuck in two subsets of twos, that's segregation. if there's one that fucks all other three but the rest only jack off, that's privilege.
davout: i see
mircea_popescu: is "and pushes it to public repositories" a point of contention ?
PeterL: wouldn't keys already be public when registering with assbot?
davout: mircea_popescu: well, now the bot needs a key too :-)
mircea_popescu: PeterL idea kinda is to make a further record of people's sigs, help guard them against mitm and other nefariousness. but as davout points out, now the bot needs a key.
PeterL: did it not have a key before?
mircea_popescu: which makes shit more complicated. however, it also makes shit perhaps better defensible ? i dunno.
davout: i don't really see a use for that
davout: and if the signature on the blob is required only for access control, maybe it's be better to leverage asswot's functionality directly
mircea_popescu: davout nah, it's required for inclusion in bthe actual deed.
davout: as in 'wanna timestamp some stuff? fine, verify with and otp"
mircea_popescu: for later ppl to be able to verify at home.
davout: say i want to timestamp a contract i made with someone also in the L2 group as nested clearsigns, i doesn't really matter which signature is checked by deedbot, right?
davout: nah, scratch that
mircea_popescu: it only checks outer.
davout: yeah well, i wanted to point out that it didn't really prevent anyone from checking the inner sig at home
davout: i just fail to see a good reason to make the signatures mandatory, outside of access control that is
mircea_popescu: so that someone in 3714, with nothing but an inscription of deedbot's deeds, can verify our contracts just as well as we can.
mircea_popescu: this is the point of notarization : making the acts of men equal to the acts of god.
asciilifeform: unless key factored <= 3714
asciilifeform: not god quite yet.
davout: maybe we'll want to timestamp something else than contracts is what i'm thinking
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform factorization trivially defeated by better key putting it into record :(
mircea_popescu: :) i mean
asciilifeform: gotta be alive to upgrade keys
asciilifeform: ozymandias - won't.
PeterL: you can timestamp whatever you want, as long as gpg signed first
davout: that's how is spec'd yes :-)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but suppose your 4kb key is factorized. this matter is discovered by joe on june 19th, 3211. he signs, with his 64kb key, a note saying so.
mircea_popescu: now, come 3714, it will be clear that uses ulterior to 3211 are null. but it will also be clear that uses prior to say, 3200 will still hold
mircea_popescu: davout that's how it goes, why not.
asciilifeform: well yes, in that case joe is, so to speak, trimming the weeds on your monument.
davout: asciilifeform: also if you see a message signed with your key, and timestamped 200 years after your first timestamped message you can reasonably assumed it's been broken
asciilifeform: davout: lol, but what kind of idiot would do that
davout: say i timestamp sth in 2014
davout: any timestamping after 2114 is null and void, problem solves itself
PeterL: I don't suppose people pass keys down to their heirs?
undata: davout: this business of making assumptions is not how it's done...
davout: PeterL: well, sign something to this effect, otherwise timestamps are inherently suspicious, esp. if factorization is possible given state of current technology
davout: *further timestamps
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51000 @ 0.00050035 = 25.5179 BTC [-] {2}
davout: undata: which assumption are you referring to?
kakobrekla: you are suppose to assume that
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.125 = 1.375 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: <PeterL> I don't suppose people pass keys down to their heirs? << people well might.
mircea_popescu: what exactly is inheritance if not this, fundamentally, inheriting father's FIRM. ie, signature.
asciilifeform: in the case of pgp key, it's rather like, in the worst case, time travel.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00050949 = 8.8651 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: dead pope's seal is broken for a reason.
asciilifeform: granted, not everyone is a pope.
undata: asciilifeform: still seems father would sign a public statement granting his possessions to a son
mircea_popescu: a complicated matter.
asciilifeform: sure. but he does not give him the ability to retroactively emulate him
undata: asciilifeform: I was agreeing :)
asciilifeform: father might want to bind the son into some sort of 'dead hand' arrangement
mircea_popescu: father generally does, for "son's own good".
asciilifeform: if son inherits signature, he can possibly unbind himself.
asciilifeform: or worse
asciilifeform: (crap all over father's posthumous good name by forging past xxxxx)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26898 @ 0.00049826 = 13.4022 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up BayAreaCoins
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't forge past because you can' register old deeds.
mircea_popescu: and you can retire a key any time you feel like.
asciilifeform: this assumes a universally agreed upon timestamp mechanism, yes.
asciilifeform: if there isn't one - can forge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, the notary blockchain stamping mechanism.
mircea_popescu: quite universal.
kakobrekla: !s dual ec drbg
assbot: 3 results for 'dual ec drbg' :
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6902 @ 0.00049826 = 3.439 BTC [-]
undata: mircea_popescu: I get "No data" from the link in your spec article, and when I substitute my key's fingerprint
scoopbot: New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu:
mircea_popescu: undata lessee
mircea_popescu: i r see json.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61600 @ 0.0005047 = 31.0895 BTC [+] {3}
undata: mircea_popescu: ah right, two parameters makes sense; the article has one
undata: the spec intends assbots fingerprint is one param?
mircea_popescu: you're supposed to replace the other one with the key you're looking for
undata: mircea_popescu: ty
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: 'terrorism' article: where would you place osman empire on the 'law/terror' map?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67400 @ 0.00048005 = 32.3554 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15600 @ 0.00047837 = 7.4626 BTC [-]
cazalla: rate Rozal -3 threatened to rate me -10 because he doesn't understand how the WoT actually works, see for conversation, offered to then pay me to remove the -1 earning him a -3
assbot: <Rozal> h <Rozal> hi <Rozal> i hate people who abuse the rating system <Rozal - ... ( )
cazalla: ah, clearly i gots to learn the new assbot rules, been a little busy
kakobrekla: put ! in front
cazalla: oh, that's right :) all good, did it in pm now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51166 @ 0.00047822 = 24.4686 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: << arguably the first genuinely interesting snowdenism. with actual crapware samples, protocol docs.
assbot: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle - SPIEGEL ONLINE ... ( )
asciilifeform: and a few lists of pwned hardware.
decimation: asciilifeform: one wonders how much of this kind of thing he has left in 'reserve'
PeterL: and is it just going to get juicier as time goes on?
decimation: actually the 'bios erasure' thing calls to mind this news story back in 2013
assbot: NSA alleges 'BIOS plot to destroy PCs' • The Register ... ( )
asciilifeform: erasure's a snore.
asciilifeform: any idiot can erase.
decimation: asciilifeform: right, but it is amusing to look at the sudden panic over 'evil foreign erasure virus' when that's exactly what they have been working on (apparently)
decimation: < "The President acknowledged concerns that encryption technology may make intelligence-gathering efforts more difficult, saying, "If we get into a situation which the technologies do not allow us at all to track somebody we're confident is a terrorist … and despite knowing that information, despite having a phone number or a social-media address
assbot: Prez Obama snubs UK PM's tough anti-encryption crusade at White House meet • The Register ... ( )
decimation: or email address, that we can't penetrate that, that's a problem.""
asciilifeform: also expect to read volumes in the next few weeks in crapmedia re: the 'openssh backdoor'
asciilifeform: (which is actually a pedestrian doctored build)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite lawful.
mircea_popescu: it prevented the middle east issues for well over 5 centuries.
mircea_popescu: thus accomplishing more than western europe + north america, by a damned sight.
asciilifeform: wai wat
mircea_popescu: whenever people like taleb think of peace in their homeland,
mircea_popescu: they're really thinking of something that was utopia pre and probably post osmanli.
asciilifeform: aha that
asciilifeform: forgot, for a min, what the original question was
asciilifeform: a little mindfuck.
mircea_popescu: osmanlı
asciilifeform: (bios diddlers kept the piece in mid. east...)
mircea_popescu: piece even better
asciilifeform has been at the console for too long, he thought
asciilifeform spend ~2h today haggling with a door-to-door flunkie from his isp, which recently hauled in extra fiber & is trying to upsell folks
mircea_popescu: so how much did you make haggling ?
asciilifeform: zip. sc4mz0rz.
undata is in progress haggling a new computer out of lenovo
asciilifeform: all the 'gr34t n3w d34lzz' were for buyers of tv & phone service.
mircea_popescu: cazalla you aware that pastie ends in sex ?
decimation: asciilifeform: verizon 'fios'?
asciilifeform: decimation: aha. the very same
undata: asciilifeform: I'd not mind if you hurried up making a computer that works for me :D
asciilifeform: ubiquitous on u.s. east coast
decimation: did you ask him who had to pay for the backup UPS
asciilifeform: which ups
asciilifeform: there's two, theirs & yours
cazalla: mircea_popescu, anything that's good, does
decimation: my understanding is that verzion 'gives' you an ups that you must maintain
asciilifeform: decimation: the customer-ended one comes with the box
decimation: right, but who replaces the inevitable dead battery?
asciilifeform: the subscriber
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57750 @ 0.0004784 = 27.6276 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: in the past, with copper, this was the phone company's responsibility
asciilifeform: when i got the building there wasn't even a battery.
asciilifeform: decimation: aha because there was no battery on subscriber premises in the copper era. unless he owned one.
decimation: precisely
asciilifeform: for what it's worth, i have the damned thing plugged into a monster 'liebert' doubleconverter along with the rest of the orchestra.
mircea_popescu: uh i never had this ? wut are you talking about ?!
decimation: I've heard that once verzion runs fiber to your premises, they typically take the time to rip out the old copper wire
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: large telco where i live.
mircea_popescu: ok but what battery ?
decimation: because they don't want to be held to 'common carrier' standards of common access and maintenance
asciilifeform: decimation: aha. there was a rat's nest of mangled copper when i got to it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the particular telco's optical terminal chest comes with a battery. and lusers whine interminably that 'why do i have to replace this battery every year, i w4ntz fr3333 stuff'
mircea_popescu: cazalla eh, i'd say let the noob be.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is weird. in romania they keep the end battery on the pole next to you
mircea_popescu: it doesn't have to be ON THE EXACT END
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here the pole also has a battery, for the telco routers. but the house optical chest has another. this is actually on account of an ancient law that proclaims that voice telephony must work during mains outages
mircea_popescu: and it's still illegal to fuck with the copper in yurp.
decimation: in the past, the copper wires were 'powered' by the telephone company in its central office
mircea_popescu: uh... voice over fiber ?!
asciilifeform: aha. for chumps.
cazalla: mircea_popescu, so i should just be more accepting of this idiocy?
assbot: <Rozal> h <Rozal> hi <Rozal> i hate people who abuse the rating system <Rozal - ... ( )
asciilifeform: well, for folks who still want land line
asciilifeform: once you switch to the opticals here, they - as decimation pointed out in this and the last 3 threads on the subject - tear out your copper.
mircea_popescu: cazalla i skimmed it. dude's begging you and errything. he's nobody i heard of, prolly some noob.
mircea_popescu: imo not wrth the bullets.
cazalla: but he has so many ratings from otc from all his $5 buys!
decimation: not for any technical reason, but because of the assorted pile of usg policy & requirements that apply to 'common carrier' services like telephone
mircea_popescu: let ppls live
cazalla: anyway, he came looking for me, not me him, just as easy to neg rate him and move on with it
mircea_popescu: decimation imo destroying the copper infrastructure is even dumber than destroying the family infrastructure.
mircea_popescu: transvestites aren't worth it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of how it was built, it is tremendously expensive to maintain.
asciilifeform digs for thread
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43750 @ 0.00047726 = 20.8801 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: maintain copper ?!
mircea_popescu: which alternative universe is this!
assbot: Logged on 02-05-2014 21:22:05; asciilifeform: copper is expensive - not merely the metal, but maintenance - keeping water out of the cable ducts, etc. the telcos would hurry to be rid of it even the removal did not speed the arrival of arsenet.
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure most landline infrastructure in eastern europe has never been maintained in any sense since at least 1985
mircea_popescu: think ny waterworks.
asciilifeform: funnily enough, ny land lines perished in a massive flood a few yrs ago.
asciilifeform: mostly replaced with monopoly fiber.
mircea_popescu: was that the one when they drenched the vaults ? lost ~10 trn worth of old paper ?
asciilifeform: the same.
assbot: Less than half of U.S. kids today live in a ‘traditional’ family | Pew Research Center ... ( )
decimation: asciilifeform: actually I thought there were areas where they 'gave up' and decided not to rebuild any phone system
asciilifeform: decimation: if this is so, it is contrary to the ancient laws.
mircea_popescu: decimation i doubt they would meet my definition. things like "every boy under 16 must have 4 acres of forested hillside and a dog"
asciilifeform: in usa, telco is mandatory.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc it's one of those where existence is mandatory but no-one's responsibility. so...
asciilifeform: point is, most of the remaining copper could vanish overnight, and not one in ten people will notice.
asciilifeform: everyone is using mobiles.
assbot: Disaster, meet opportunity: Verizon's plan to push wireless on copper landline customers | The Verge ... ( )
asciilifeform: it so happens that in usa, a landline phone is a spam magnet.
decimation: asciilifeform: there are at least two main reasons for this: 1.) it is illegal to 'telemarket' to mobile phones and 2.) landlines are billed at outrageous rates
mircea_popescu: "opportunity". anyone here seen les trotillards ?
asciilifeform: whereas a wireless handset, most of the time, is not
mircea_popescu: 1950s film.
asciilifeform does not keep a landline
decimation had a landline for years, became enraged that a $2 per month service became $40 after taxes & fees
mircea_popescu: "famine is a disaster that opens the door to opportunity : you can swallow knots!"
decimation: !up sinetek
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11444 @ 0.00047709 = 5.4598 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: << the document concerning specific doctored firmware
decimation: \me wonders if lizzard hitler's purpose with these releases is simply to distribute digital contraband for later reckoning
asciilifeform: << data exfiltration protocol implementation guide
asciilifeform: ^ nazi ssl
asciilifeform: the rest can be safely skipped, mostly snore.
mircea_popescu: exfiltration protocol /
mircea_popescu: who the fuck woud be stupid enough to use a protocol for this job ?!
mircea_popescu: "virus protocol"
asciilifeform: what's funny. any good crapware artist has 'protocol' - as in, what order to put the bits in over the wire
mircea_popescu: yes. his.
mircea_popescu: he's not using yours.
asciilifeform: these folks have their own
mircea_popescu: that's actually the difference between artist and script kiddie.
mircea_popescu: yes, these folks are script kiddies.
mircea_popescu: that's basically the long and the short of it. nsa = national scriptkiddie association. a glorified derp club.
asciilifeform: actually reminds me more of microshit
asciilifeform: very similar flavour of product
kakobrekla: skriptkiddies in your gpg sigs messing with your keyid.
decimation: asciilifeform: what about the meta-nsa part?
mircea_popescu: davout: Apocalyptic: RFC 5.2.2 sez a signature packet contains "Eight-octet Key ID of signer" << seriously in shock/denial about this.
mircea_popescu: who the fucking fuck was dumb enough!
mircea_popescu: "oh we got fingerprints let's not use them"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00047677 = 2.7176 BTC [-]
PeterL: might as well put their initials instead of signing their name
mircea_popescu: you know ?
decimation: << annual silly-con valley vc funding is less than a single whatsapp
assbot: Venture Capital investment in Silicon Valley hits dot-com boom levels • The Register ... ( )
mircea_popescu: in a fucking rfc ? /me rants and raves
mircea_popescu: decimation yes but a single watsapp "could buy all of russia".
PeterL: let me sign this important legal documet: "X"
mircea_popescu: PeterL no, that's not right.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 2**24
gribble: 16777216
mircea_popescu: there's 16mn people that could all be the same keyid.
PeterL: yeah, I know it is not quite the same thing
mircea_popescu: so initials moar like it
mircea_popescu: i guess most initial combos have about 10ish mn possible representatives.
mircea_popescu: on the grounds that
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 7.5*10**9 / 27 / 27
gribble: 10288065.8436
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