a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 04:41 mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
mircea_popescu: motherfucking mother of isis, the act of arraying buttons together in a guy is no design!
mircea_popescu: anyway, thinking about this whole "fsf was an attempt to *finally* bring about socialist utopia through a fettering of everyone's access to knowledge while open source was an attempt to nevermindthatjustkillM$already leading to java-for-browser because microsoft invented a c++ market etc" broad but really mostly correct summary, the one most striking aspect is that somehow the job of the modder (ie, guy that adds those snazzy
mircea_popescu: these letters from a time before empire-of-idiots was formalized and understood as such are about as fascinating as a child's experience from before it understood any mechanics at all.
mircea_popescu: ey perceive it) blame all their (ample) shortcomings on the hulk barnacled while claiming all the (scant) benefit as own.
mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
mircea_popescu: "doom is inevitable, BTW. mankind will die out, planet earth will be vaporized when Sol goes nova, if not sooner, and then Common Lisp will have to acknowledge defeat to the unwavering hostility of the universe. for those of us who plan to become immortal, this is a serious concern." <<< 1999 naggum was apparently planning for immortality ?
mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman technically it's incorrect to say "6 bits will always be 1" ; it's the case that the first and the last bits of N are always 1 ; and a further number of bits are subtly affected (ie, biased) by the p, q masks.
mircea_popescu: "go and read some basic books" -> "read, re-read <em>and understand</em> TAOCP" ? or what, add K&R in there ? steele's 2002 thing ?
mircea_popescu: no known pattern ; but no homogenity either. there's always an even count of integers in a given bitsize ; but not necessarily an even count of primes.
mircea_popescu: ie, prime numbers themselves do not follow this 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' rule.
mircea_popescu: moreover! while there's just as many integers with the 1337th bit set as there are with it nul, nevertheless it's trivially not the case that there's just as many 2048 bit prime numbers with it set as there are with it null.
asciilifeform: i dun have the martian one, ftr.
asciilifeform: so that's the actual keyspace available.
mircea_popescu: about 1 in 2k numbers is prime there.
asciilifeform: there aint 2045 bits of primespace under 2048b of integerspace.
mircea_popescu: anything other than 2045 loses.
mircea_popescu: if your magic maker uses say 2044 bits of input, therefore you have half as many possible states than i do!
mircea_popescu: but any other item is worse than what we have now.
asciilifeform: the described item is trivially impossible
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have a different problem : even if "no bit of input is more influential than other" i STILL want to put in no less than 2045 bits of input ; AND get out no MORE! than 2048 bit long prime.
asciilifeform: and will add, that it is theoretically possible to satisfy asciilifeform's uniformity criterion ( 'avoids no primes' + 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' ) without creating the mythical n-th-prime-maker
mircea_popescu: it'll be funny 5mn years from now, when we're all sitting around with whatever pools & eggnogs of the future and rsa still stands, undaunted, in preference of ~everything else.
asciilifeform: one of the biggest unsolveds , since greeks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no method to produce nth prime.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:12 asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:36 asciilifeform: let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. )
asciilifeform: ( see the thread )
asciilifeform: there is pointedly NOT a safe constructor known.
asciilifeform: re prime gen -- i suspect that the problem can be finessed ,
asciilifeform: the sheer wtf, srsly, consider the folx who imagine they are somehow cryptoizing on a machine with no trng
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:39 asciilifeform: generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
mircea_popescu: what if running on his mother.
mircea_popescu: "oh, 2 is a great witness for odd composites" "so would have been any other even number" "yes but... umm..."
mircea_popescu: what nsa gains from being able to rely on 2 rather than 44444444444444444 is anyone's fucking guess
mircea_popescu: i'm dealing with "four rounds of m-r and a 5th fixed with 2, so as to fix the cone of blindness" bs and you want me to care about the 2047th bit ?
mircea_popescu: i don't want the 1/4 bit of parity
asciilifeform: there's not an escape from bottom
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:01 asciilifeform: why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764342 << cuz i've been mostly the one guy reading her code to date i guess ?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
asciilifeform: so why not, then, 3 ?
mircea_popescu: the ONLY way to make sure the top bit of a product is set, is to have BOTH top bits in BOTH factors set.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 22:30 asciilifeform: 'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 21:16 phf: a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to http from https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
mircea_popescu: (and there was some idiot sheila from down below years ago ; i recall lulzing in the logs as to how this wonder will drive rapist to a) probe and b) beat into a squirming, faceless mess any bitch dumb enough to go around with it)
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:19 ben_vulpes: btw how come nobody in the "stop rape culture!!11" world has done an indiestarter to build the vagina dentata from neal stephenson's snow crash?
mircea_popescu: note to journahos of the future : include a plain statement of the above fact in your opening salvo or else.
mircea_popescu: who's ahead and who;s behind in the great technological race of 2010s ?
mircea_popescu: now let's see here : "Meltdown breaks all security assumptions given by the CPUs memory isolation capabilities." vs "So given that there is in fact no secure memory implementation no matter how much it would be useful if there was one, EuCrypt takes instead the honest and practical approach of making it clear that it uses plain memory and nothing else."
a111: Logged on 2017-09-02 19:42 asciilifeform: biggest ice part is the ICE40HX8K
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 BingoBoingo: In other news from the price is right department: "The personal information of more than a billion Indians stored in the world's largest biometric database can be bought online for less than $8, according to an investigation by an Indian newspaper."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764246 << this is a very apt commentary on the value of 1bn orcs piled up together.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 asciilifeform: ( likbez : all you need for the mythical holy grail, 'fast iron rsa', is a very large-bitnessed adder-cum-barrelshifter and a few storage registers that can be programmatically shuffled between. )
phf: mircea_popescu: 80col is such an old holiwar you're risking myself or ascii moving in a backyard and building defensive possitions, like those boys they bring from iraq do. "son, you can come out now, we showed those no break somsabeaches"
ben_vulpes: other lulzies in the same vein http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#2418 and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#0309
asciilifeform: the germans had a grammar, for shorthand of orders
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: make, why not. then it gets to be 2line
asciilifeform: where autoreflow does therighthing ~100%
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho 1 lf per para is The Right Thing ~in humanolade strictly~
mircea_popescu: is the conclusion of this standards board discussion that "fu mp, live with 80col comments, we're not gonna reflow shit for you" then ?
ben_vulpes: now that we've done indentation, how about aligning variables on the right side of = operators
asciilifeform: with the cock-shaped codes
mircea_popescu will link here http://trilema.com/2017/how-the-beastforumcom-private-messaging-function-became-a-paid-user-only-item/#selection-83.0-83.18 because heh.
mircea_popescu: phf i've little problem with people writing code in whatever line lengths they want to. but comments of arbitrary cut are infuriating (though admittedly 80col not nearly so much as 50whatever)
mircea_popescu: but at issue here aere the comments ; and make no mistake about it -- since we're doing the whole literate thing this is very important.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:45 phf: in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
asciilifeform: so answer to mircea_popescu's q is, neither !
asciilifeform: i.e. if function call simple, i.e. fits on 1 line -- then 1line; if not -- then 1 arg per line.
asciilifeform: srsly non80col proggy has burden of justifying the 'wtf, why', just like nonstandard railroad gauge
mircea_popescu: i tell you if the shit was multiple lines per line i would just exudate my lungs through the skinpores on my back out of sheer fury.
mircea_popescu: what if one dayu you have to read cpp videocard stuff ? what THEN ?
mircea_popescu: but i guess if emacs feels the sentence needs more random gibberish instilled who am i to not permit it.
mircea_popescu: why not also the interjection "you know ?" or i guess "mon"
mircea_popescu: i dunno, you want it to stuff \n in there for you.
mircea_popescu: while i watch mad max the future or whatever the fuck i'd do in this weird crapsack world
mircea_popescu: the day i want the machine to write text for me ima just buy all the girls strapons and they can fuck each other too
phf: oh oh, algo (and the machinery) being discussed is for hard line reflow. (you run M-q in emacs and it'll reflow the paragraph for you with newlines introduced)
mircea_popescu: (+if my articles aren't plaintext what are they bonus)
mircea_popescu: phf who the fuck sez ?
mircea_popescu: (last line 661 to 669, so 8 ; from 13 to 8 the variation indeed is 160% so hah!
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/time-to-get-out-by-the-way/ << third paragraph, 1st line space is 160% of 2nd line
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 19:23 ben_vulpes: > i haven't tried this test yet << and you don't know that it only works on the feeble minded, literally anyone else is going to see exactly what you're doing and give the canned response that you want: "the patriarchy keeps women down and what is really called for is demoting and docking mens wages, and promoting science education for little girls, and generally eradicating the constructed gender binary so
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764226 << either that or "either you produce a naked female employee on her knees right this second, or else your fucktarded shenanigans just cost you a 580% salary increase for being a bunch of repugnant scum"
phf: elastic spaces in this case means variable width spaces. you can't have that in plain text. you can either have foo_bar or foo__bar or ...
phf: when you eliminate hyphenation as a concern, you're just left with elastic spaces, but you don't have those in monospace plain text. you just have full sized spaces, but their granularity is so high as to be almost useless
mircea_popescu: the rules for adding multiple xn together are more complex than straight addition, but not complex enough to manage a positive out of negatives.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re the naggum quote above : a better statement would be to say that every problem comes with an iq functional which could be approximated as a (x-fiq)^3 + b(x-fiq) ; the a, b and fiq are parameters of the problem, the x is where the solver's iq goes. if his iq is lower than the fiq required by the problem, his "work" comes out negative.
phf: no no, the reason why i bring up space is that you basically have two things that k&s can play with: hyphenation and elastic spaces. the two are balanced in some magical way
mircea_popescu: phf but hyphens are fundamentally different from spaces. the two are not semantically equivalent.
phf: why hyphenate or why dehyphenate? the first is not necessary but reduces the value of k&s since basically there's very little play available with monospaced spaces
mircea_popescu: "intelligence is only a labor-saving device. less intelligent people can in principle create just as elegant solutions, but it would normally take them more effort to get there." <<< ajhaha NO! FUCKING! WAY!
mircea_popescu: yeah, trilema not a very good field for the "oh, ima be vague" approach. it's called trilema because it has at least three of everything!
mircea_popescu: http://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question#cd7ce15868f2195baa8586069393901a4b2e182e for the record.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 asciilifeform: why am i reading about e.g. '...ignorance about the lived experience of women compiler writers, say, can lead to hurtful behavior...' ?
mircea_popescu: all these fucktards "being involved" in various topics through insistently discussing what they read in hustler. jacking off doesn't make you a beautician/car mechanic/architect/dentist/etcetera. it may make you blind, apparently, to the world around, but whatevs.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker... NOBODY CARES. seriouyslty now. it makes exactly zero difference for any practical purpose "in the industry" whether you chain up all the women and sell them off to martians.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764186 << so i dutifully follow, and i duly end up on " I have a new interview question, and you can have it too: "The industry has a gender balance problem. Why is this?" [ed: see postscript]"
mircea_popescu: "human rights" hurr. nobody reading that thought "o hey, how great, old woman gets ground into the dirt". HOWEVER, the difference between sane person and moderntard is that they also didn't go "HEY, PIXIE DUST!!! MAKE ALL BETTER!!!"
asciilifeform just had quite interesting conv with pet re the harsh 'cold equations' light of 'fefeleaga' vs the socialisto-gunk of 'les miserables'
mircea_popescu: some good stuff there.
asciilifeform: it's on the list, from old thread
BingoBoingo: You know who loves making fun of the Obese: Latinos
asciilifeform: it is that. but also imho a reasonable engineering term. it describes the engineering equivalent of obesity
mircea_popescu: well, so then, "alien problem is how an authority may choose to communicate the excommunication of a class of activity" lel.
asciilifeform: it's true, whether or not i restate it, lol
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
asciilifeform: this is the wine-with-chickenshit-subtracted from yesterday's thread.
asciilifeform: this is again the 'i can tell gabriel_laddel from maxwell' . asciilifeform , and mircea_popescu , and any sane folx can trivially distinguish 'less malnutrited japanese' from 'mcfood-eater' transformations
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the train seats issue is particularly iffy, considering how japanese did rework in 70s.
asciilifeform: 'alien problem' is how one says to the folx who maneuver themselves into a dead end, and who very much were architects of their own misfortune, that their problems are NOT 'the problem of all mankind' and that to construct for them 'solutions', such as they would accept, is harmful to the sane
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a difference between poet ignoring language convention and junior high "innocent bystander who happens to be black" ignoring same.
mircea_popescu: the epicycles, before removal, a) had a history whcih b) was understood by the removers. the "alien problem" is how lazy jwz say "i don't want to read", by and large.
asciilifeform: what's the dysfunctional veneering in saying to the fat-tard 'stop having become fat' rather than 'here is how to rework train seats everywhere' ?
mircea_popescu: now then, back to the issue : i suspect "alien problem" is a worse than useless heuristic, in the exact sense "web metric" are a worse than useless management aid.
asciilifeform: the gods only dropped heuristics, not revelations.
asciilifeform: that's the only it.
mircea_popescu: consider the case of "evil" scientists that were WRONG
asciilifeform: 'to pull rabbit from a hat, he must be actually in the hat'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is especially difficult for fathers with... nothing to pick from
asciilifeform: the litmus asciilifeform lives with is, roughly: show him a pertinent item made of 'maths he hasn't learned'; is response 'hmm, lemme disappear for a week into my study and come back' or ... 'I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO !111'
mircea_popescu: it is notoriously difficult for fathers to pick competent sons for daughters / stalins to pick competent successors etc.
asciilifeform: the saving grace is that it is not , in practice, usually difficult to distinguish the folx who are at least earnestly shooting for maxwellization ( and prepared to acknowledge failure ; THEIR ~personal~ failure ) from the gabriel_laddels
mircea_popescu: exactly because "technology helps the theives too, is policework-neutral overall" phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: it'd also be RATHER FUCKING SHOCKING just how much intelligence is needed to merely maintain the border between "tru science" and "discredited paradigm".
asciilifeform: pretty much every boy thinks that the maths he hasn't learned yet, 'is epicycle'
mircea_popescu: so following recursively down the rabbit hole (see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761834 ) it then follows that this being a problem "they shouldn't have to have" etcetera.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 01:18 mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is EXACTLY what drives the "toxic fax" wank : that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764490
asciilifeform: and i'll point out that orig term was not coined in pantsuitistan, but by ilkka k, a surprisingly sane mathematics d00d
asciilifeform: none of those problems exist when you fix the bitness.
asciilifeform: the shoe fits, neh ?
asciilifeform: the memory gymnastics in mpi. and 'for your convenience, we will package the defective transistors separately!11' , i'll call it here
asciilifeform: more dangerous is the gabriel_laddel-style confusion, 'i dun need no book-larnin', classical mechanics is for squares, i'ma straight to genius and discovery'
mircea_popescu: what fucking human rights. they're not a kind of epicycles, they're a kind of jokicicles.
mircea_popescu: or is it the case that we pick and choose, and who "we" is matters, and so on etcetera.
asciilifeform: not that it's a bad example, but 'human rights' is 'easy' bunkum , unlikely to be confused with a physically-existing item except by the deliberately mendacious folks and their useful idiots
mircea_popescu: this is uninteresting until you stop to consider that the "fascist" ancien regime (that's the word you'd use today, right ?) did NOT have the fucking ability to deny people taking a shit when they felt like taking a shit.
mircea_popescu: here's a point of discussion : in the palace of versailles, the desicated excrement in the corners of the hallways was swept away once a week.
mircea_popescu: no, but rather than talking of the genuine item, ie, epicycles, they talk of entirely fictitious item, ie, "human rights".
asciilifeform: the pantsuit picture is then presumably that somebody 'sat down to impose epicycles' ( in the spirit of 'newton sat down to...' ) ?
mircea_popescu: whereas nobody can argue for clothespins.
mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but now merge these factual observations, which are correct BUT SUPERFICIAL, with your own knowledge on and around the scheuristic point of "coffin liners".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764095 << scheuristic, ie, the schelling heuristic. like a point, except a heuristic. btw, is the point clear there ? not that "epicycles weren't abolished", but that "the substantial difference between the real item, ie, epicycles, which were so abolished, and the pantsuitology item, ie clothespin, which never existed, is exactly of the nature of defeated-enemy vs defeated-strawman" ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it could also be that there's so much metrage of dead air to fill and so very little to fill it with. "this may be an entertaining talkshow ; it isn't, of course, but... WSOD!!!"
mircea_popescu: hang on i'm working through them monsterlogs.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:02 asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
asciilifeform: and i find it especially infuriating when they slither into islands of sanity like ada
ben_vulpes: in other news, lowtax state of wa remarkably efficient in stark comparison to hightax state of or.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what concerns me is the man's self-evaluator. "i went to battle with the electric fence ; i won, but..."
ben_vulpes: what is with these retards and their untestable hypotheses anyways, "this might blablabla the whateverwhatever". nigga can you not design an experiment? or might it be that the necessary experiments are actually impossible given the impossibility of baking metrics and disambiguating confounding factors?
asciilifeform: ( though will point out, consequences of this type of leak, is early death of the proggy, rather than 'ballons into red dwarf' a la prb or firefox )
asciilifeform: ( failed to unwind the stack )
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i'll put it on the budget lolz shelf
shinohai: Comedy that ben_vulpes might enjoy: http://archive.is/9gkfT "If we see more female figures on traffic lights that might also have a positive impact on changing the way we view the world."
asciilifeform: presumably was done to implement 100% of the standard.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, why the pointless animal cruelty! not like you didn't know plywood dun work for this application.
mircea_popescu: but WHY would someone involved DO THIS. it's like dentist going "and here's a squirrel i put wooden teeth into. they were plywood and didn't work very well, it's not intended for geriatric care"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the secondary stack thing worx correctly in modern-day gnat. but i banned it. ( because it makes reading disasmed binariolade harder; reasoning about the semantics of the latter -- also harder; and consumes very scarce, on small embedded chips, memory , imho needlessly )
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "ugly teeth run in the family" news, http://78.media.tumblr.com/2620b35ac849769e1e1c6e8b9ad7416e/tumblr_my5xgeZoPf1rmux9jo1_1280.jpg
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:55 phf: heh "Classification of Dugin as a fascist is justified, regardless of the fact that today the MGU professor frequently speaks not as a primitive ethnocentrist or biological racist. (...) By «fascist» we understand the «generic» meaning of the concept, used in comparatory research of contemporary right-wing extremism by such well-known historians-comparativists [etc.]
mircea_popescu: is not intended as a final implementation." (the original 80wrap braindamage has been fixed). I CAN SCARCELY APPREHEND ETC
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763745 << /me dutifully follows, and duly falls upon "2) What was not implemented until recently was functions returning unconstrained arrays. This is a very tricky thing to do, as I'll describe in a moment. The week before Tri-Ada, I added a temporary, kludgy implementation to GNAT. About the only thing it had to say for itself is that it worked, but it creates serious memory leaks. It
mircea_popescu: yeah, i expect so. certainly they didn't go about collecting best-kim-ung's oppinions.
mircea_popescu: imagine the lulz, "circumspect" reporter going into white house alt-reality distortion field festival, "hmm... you guys came up with this shit yourselves, right ?"
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, what else is there ? usg wrote its fanfic itself too.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763733 << consider the concept of "turkey dollars" ; http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/
diana_coman: asciilifeform, theoretically yes; at that time though I did not even go that far and it still proved to be wishful thinking
asciilifeform: Matthew: that's mircea_popescu's www.
asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
diana_coman: fwiw I take asciilifeform to mean the engineering approach vs current "programming" approach; that has little to do with "engineer" diploma or not,sadly
phf: their beards (and lack of) were of wide wariety. sure there are hypothetical ee's from 70s who switched to programming micros in the 80s who write god tier C, but bulk of them is not it
asciilifeform: diana_coman: consider, not only 'programmable' but theoretically the only 'indestructible' machine yet built, where you can (at least in principle) replace ALL of the wear parts without stopping
diana_coman: phf might be onto something in that functional programming was not mandatory for instance; I took the course because I wanted to but I could have had no idea of it at all even, easily
Matthew: i dont go there
asciilifeform: phf: lemme guess, their beards, were not white ?
phf: wut, half the horrible code i've seen is from actual engineers. usually unstructructured reams of potato code like they were taught to write matlab or fortran
Matthew: tell me about the church
Matthew: forget the free coin
diana_coman: heh, add to that the fact that I specifically got interested in computers initially for the very promise (to my mind at the time at least) that they are... reliable; because programmable, see? such silly 17-yo mea
asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
asciilifeform: from what asciilifeform has seen, life is often quite hard for actual-engineers who end up in programmerdom. sorta like shalamov's observation re folx from baltics, not only better-nutritioned and taller to begin with ( by itself gives higher 'idle rpm' ) but whose daily life was 'farther from gulag' , starved sooner than ru folx ( in particular rural )
asciilifeform: Matthew: if you are looking for something danielpbarron said some time earlier, there is the log , http://btcbase.org/log
asciilifeform: Matthew: hang around for a few hrs, he will probably come back
Matthew: im Matthew from efnet news
asciilifeform: who might you be, Matthew ?
deedbot: Matthew voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up Matthew
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman started as a mathematician , neh ?
diana_coman: I suspect all of it, one way or the other IS a matter of habit really; it might even be that I simply programmed overall too little compared to reading non-programming (programmed at school+uni+few years after that and then ran for the hills until I got drawn back because eulora)
asciilifeform: it makes the 'loc' metric meaningful AT ALL to begin with, for starters !
phf: in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
asciilifeform: it is very grating on the nerves, to read such crapola
asciilifeform: and speaking of this, asciilifeform is almost certainly doomed to properly texize ffa in the end. there are so few things more loathesome than reading MECHANICALLY REFLOWED code. whether line flow or page breaks.
diana_coman: and paper+writing a lot before any need for keyboard, but I still get annoyed at multi-line stuff that is ... one thing otherwise, ugh
asciilifeform: generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i am one of those weirdos who still does a large amt of his programming -- and the bulk of his code-reading -- on paper.
asciilifeform as you can see from the pic, uses vertical displays. and when reading serious proggy , tends to send it to printer ! which - guesswhat - doesn't know how to reflow ( and if it did, would mangle indent and create unreadable soup )
diana_coman: I do try to keep otherwise lines relatively short mainly because no reason for very long but that in code not in comments, admitted; and certainly not with some strict 80 char limit per se, true
diana_coman: multi-line is still chop the way my brain reads
asciilifeform: ( rather than arbitrary 'chop' )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, tbh lines chopped tend to bother me; I repeatedly tried (years/ages ago) the whole thing with 80cols, quick to read etc but... it still bothers me, what can I do; that being said, I see there long comments line not code; possibly some printfs in the tests that might be long I suppose
asciilifeform: a real Lisp world would be so much better. however, a real Lisp world cannot win as long as GUILE is the image people have of a Lisp environment, just like Lisp has suffered tremendously from the Scheme people's insistence that Scheme as taught to college students is what they should expect from Lisp.'
asciilifeform: inefficiency are bad for Lisp, which would have done it a lot better had it been in control, but GUILE doesn't do it any better. GUILE combines the worst of both worlds, in an attempt to bring the best of one world to a world where it doesn't really belong. on top of this, it's Scheme, and it's expensive to run, there's so much wrong with it that nobody can use it without fixing some part of it. so, it's going to be a winner, but
asciilifeform: and, to round off the archaeological dig, https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129467830883882@naggum.no.html >> 'the programming environment model in Unix is an imitation of the Lisp machine, and the way it is implemented is through processes and inter-process communication instead of function calls. functions in the Lisp heap are programs on disk in the Unix model. the optimizations that made Unix able to survive this incredible
a111: Logged on 2017-07-02 12:50 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678460 << how about we roll the boot time ( to shell!! ) of your cmachinekernel, how about?
asciilifeform: ( the latter discussion was about , approx, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678490 )
asciilifeform: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129441516179845@naggum.no.html << relatedly. >> 'the problem with retrofitting a Lisp or Scheme onto Unix is that Unix really is a C programming environment, and using the C mindset when building Lisp or Scheme applications or systems on top of it loses. the same is true of any other programming language with an environment that takes the role of Unix for C.'
asciilifeform: >> '...when I look at Scheme programs that try to do more than trivial tasks, or at Scheme systems that try to give people a framework to work in, I get the "perl experience" -- heaps of ugly but useful hacks to get some short-term job done. seems to me that the flip side of the "only the most elegant are admitted" argument is that there is no lower bound on the ugliness of what is _not_ admitted, yet necessary to get there in pract
asciilifeform: why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
vap0r: ////// [ HOLY ASS FUCKIN THANKS FOR THE VOICE deedbot !! ] \\\
asciilifeform: 'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
phf: yw, the process is becoming streamlined. next i need to make it pick up just new patches, rather than refresh the whole lot
ben_vulpes: in other lols, my 1933 babar reprint just arrived and it is a delightful paen to colonialism
phf: a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to http from https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
asciilifeform: jpxe: see also trilema, e.g. http://trilema.com/2017/lets-revisit-the-google-is-irrelevant-discussion/#comment-123791 .
asciilifeform: ( this is almost possibly the first litmus for a n00b : will he read logs when told to ? show symptoms of actually having done so, and learne d? )
ben_vulpes: and familiarize yourself with v ( http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ), read logs for six months...
asciilifeform: start him with the obvious starting point ?
ben_vulpes: that is one of the nicest things about this little town that i've moved to, all of the girls make eye contact and act feminine