mircea_popescu: ah, the chip. yea
asciilifeform: 'glue' being the 74xxx discretolade
asciilifeform: in that last pic, the gluelogic loox to be a mix of su and ro
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this item is similar to the last gasp of su comp makers, the iskra 286 , 100% orc except for the intel chip ( last su-indigenous clone was afaik 8086 )
asciilifeform: sov mil-grade caps are still prized ( tantalum-niobium , go and buy these in usa for any price )
mircea_popescu: http://dl.wavetrex.eu/oldcomp/DSC_8811.JPG << lotta eg st micro chips used (the board etc are genuinely made in ro, but imported soviet capacitors etc)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty sure baneasa made them ; but stopped ccaq 1988 and i doubt any crates survive untouched
asciilifeform: aside from rom/ram all it needs is a uart , of which there is also a good '80 supply .
mircea_popescu: but tbh i suspect bulk of them were after 1990.
mircea_popescu: ro was getting all sorta decadent bourgeois items by the late 80s.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform , incidentally, is eternally on the lookout for anybody selling crates of eprom-window microcontrollers, they are gold standard for auditable/non-surreptitiously-rewritable iron )
asciilifeform: the 1980s variant was '16c84', exactly same device aside from the glass window / uv eprom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( and lulzily i had the very same serialport programmator described in your link )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaaa you meant the ~actual~ taiwanese pic16, not orcistani micros
mircea_popescu: esthlos yeah, by now there's a very large userbase for emacs established.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:31 asciilifeform: in so far asciilifeform is concerned, the 'universal' workstation is emacs-in-ratpoison.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826916 << I try to do everything I can in emacs, it being the "retarded cousin" lisp machine emulator for C machines. even used exwm for a while.
asciilifeform: cuz in ye olde su the closest thing , afaik, were straight clones of i8051 , with eprom , i.e. the glass windows
mircea_popescu: you know we also had these ?
asciilifeform: there is apparently still a subculture around that thing
asciilifeform: ftr, prolly the most enjoyable programming asciilifeform ever did as adult, was on a device called 'pic16', a microcontroller with 68 addressable byte ( and 1k of program rom, it was a 'harvard arch' )
mircea_popescu: this generally is the thing, "what a man and woman can do in their bedroom instead of another pregnancy"
mircea_popescu: the golden age of the z80 games was principally driven by the fact that an intellectual unit (at the time, one guy + one gal) could churn out a game per season. most of the great "studios" of the time were this, coupla married math teachers.
asciilifeform: folx would write, on paper, what was initially an impossible-to-run 300-500 bytes, then work, whittle.
asciilifeform: imho there's something to the hypothesis that the almost absurd minimality of the earlier boxen, encouraged careful thought and experimentation
mircea_popescu: it's the exact sort of problem discussed re "scientific paradigms". dazzling array of alternatives results in manifestly inept behaviours.
asciilifeform: ( granted at the point of mk85 , troo micros were already beginning to spread, and the set of folx willing to play games with grid paper, began to thin )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: very tellingly, there were afaik 0 great gamez made for mk-85 , despite the latter featuring a pdp11-compat chipset ( in, forfuckssake, a pocket calc!! runinng on , what, 20 milliamp ) and rom basic
asciilifeform: ada, for instance, is a very, very heavy kludge around the c overflows/pointerola iron.
mircea_popescu: this is not directly evident to me. it is impossible to use the killer micro as a timeshare machine, yes.
asciilifeform: the fabric makes trooly sane design of os, editor, i/o, ~impossible
asciilifeform: contention is that the pestilences emerge from the fabric of the machine, rather than merely herd of dummkopf programmertards
mircea_popescu: in discussion is the "can't do anything, pentium sucks"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: believe or not, mk61 was a troo breakthrough, a computer (of sorts) that could be actually mass-produced in orcistan. buncha folx did their physics dissertation models on the thing, even
asciilifeform: the i/o device consisted of, what, 40 buttons and a 7-digit vacuum flask display.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 16:18 asciilifeform: one of these was 'reactor control' , with realistic constants, you had to ramp up reactor, control the rods and the sodium pump etc, object was to get max power but avoid meltdown
asciilifeform: on 'c machine', with overflows , runaway pointerolade, etc being inescapable facts of life, 'dragon' comes from the very earth.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of 40 yrs of os braindamage, folx often confuse what they want , in that they think they want multithread, but really want nonblockage
asciilifeform: errybody outgrew the von neumann box as soon as they started trying for http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827189
mircea_popescu: when i was 16, my informatics teacher in the informatics lab told the kids upset at being stuck with the 286s (there were like half a dozen 386s too) that "if you ever get to where you mastered THAT cpu, you'll be way ahead of anything they teach in college anyway".
asciilifeform: re 'manifest matter at will' : in early 2000s asciilifeform grasped the mega-problem , that programming ain't actually hard, except for stripping away the monkey shit produced by 50 yrs of monkey. 'i want a sane emacs' turned into 'sane prog lang' and quickly 'sane os' then 'sane iron' , and afaik this actually the inevitable correct cut, rather than caprice
mircea_popescu: well so there we go.
asciilifeform: ( 'you wouldn't download mercedes!' -- idjit usg copyrasty poster ; 'i would if i could, motherfuckers' ( answer ) )
mircea_popescu: it's not "oh, errybody has a rotten plank or two keeping'em afloat." it's "oh, everybody ~can manifest matter by will~, currently everybody hanging off the bare minimum rotten plank and they're not even COMPARED".
asciilifeform: the current alternative, tho, is not a luxury liner appearing out of nowhere from the sky, but simply no plank, and watery grave.
mircea_popescu: i still gota plot < if i wanna see the graph of a csv. that's floating in lalaland.
mircea_popescu: everyone does it every day because the psychological pain of the laternative is just too great. but, great or small -- you're all fucking drowning.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, the reasoning "a. i have here toe of mummified saint justinian ; b. saint justinian once saved people from drowning ; ergo c. drowning is solved problem in my case" is batshit.
mircea_popescu: which is why it's all coming out of the tube here.
asciilifeform: ( nobody, afaik, anywhere, uses the factory config )
asciilifeform: same thing as in the earlier emacs thread
mircea_popescu: so to sum up this -- i have no dispute that everyone uses shards, bits and pieces hammered off named items, and pretends they're using the named items, "i use x11 in this so and so sense" "i use browser all day -- except not in any sense browser, of course" and so on.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827208 << >> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=267 ( and, sadly, afaik the only successful demonstration of this behaviour, was bolix )
asciilifeform: same thrust as the fritz/cr50/etc nonsense.
asciilifeform: the heathens know this, and so they specifically put mega-effort into making 'get the text out via awk-like' as painful as possible.
mircea_popescu: because in all honestly, i wouldn't even ~deign~ rto look upon the shit that's dailymail other than through n layers of awk. i don't CARE whjat they think they're saying asnymore than i care what the fetwhores think they're saying.
asciilifeform: www tools are in a sorry state, the choice is roughly 1) lynx 2) ipadism
mircea_popescu: but... yes, all these are tips of icebergs.
asciilifeform: iirc there is a wwwtron , of a kind, built into emacs; it is in roughly the same condition as climacs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform point is, if i am using emacs wm, WHY should i kludge everything. and if kludge is the way of the land, why do we give a shit about emacs.
mircea_popescu: who's gonna rewrite this into sanity ? and why, so as to save the mozillatards ? break all the cr50s they scattered everywhere to save them ?
mircea_popescu: otherwise... what ? STRICTLY only way to tell "do not load foreign pages" to "modern" browser is to turn off the dns port.
mircea_popescu: THIS is what i fucking mean re views. if i wanna see my data as a graph it'd be useful if it were right there in the editor, and if i wanna see websites it'd better also.
asciilifeform: and what's to stop you from diddling the strings in a http proxy. ( prolly easier, really, than making a 'greasemonkey' kludge for erry possible www browser )
mircea_popescu: what is this, the usg budget ?
mircea_popescu: and moreover, why shouldn'\t i be able to see the dom tree and permit/disallow certain branches from running ?
mircea_popescu: some of them grudgingly still allow individual cookie inspection -- but NOT EDITING COOKIES
asciilifeform: e.g. graphical emacses, complete with frames, arbitrary windowshape, and orcograms, running on other end of planet and displaying in arbitrarily-shaped windows on my console.
mircea_popescu: and it doesn't stop there ; are you aware "modern browser" won't even allow luser to set referrer string ? it's either "nothing at all" or else "Speak the truth". why ? so that fetlife can imp[lement faux security a la "oh, your referrer is incorrect, best relogin".
asciilifeform: dunno about other folx, but i use it -- in the sense described in linked threads -- ~all day, erryday.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nevertheless, consider : when the ~only~ possible use of x11 comes to fore, which is to say, playing a video game, all EVERYONE can think of is "how do i makew this a texrt client"
asciilifeform: ( as for the orig idjit trying to leverage 'his brand', d00d's been at it for quite some time, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732650 )
asciilifeform: 'BitTorrent, one of the most recognisable brands in the world' << what's next, http is also 'brand' ?
ben_vulpes: also other more lulzy luls: https://www.neowin.net/news/bittorrent-has-been-sold-to-blockchain-startup-for-an-alleged-140-million
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:11 asciilifeform: i always thought this was one of the spiffiest things re the smbx boxes
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:45 mircea_popescu: leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827214 << this is merely tip of iceberg, dun forget the multiple impedance-mismatched memory allocators, gc, etc
asciilifeform: the tunneling behaviour of x11 makes it practical to use a box with no video card, no kbd, etc. as a full-bore workstation ( and this was used as early as the bolix lispm )
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 04:57 asciilifeform: well, on classical x11 i have, e.g., machine that runs, say, 20 gui proggies, and each one 1) is on an entirely different machine, somewhere else, some of them not even on same continent 2) behaves EXACTLY as if it were running locally, window reshapes, etc 3) none have any shared state with the others, each sees local disk only of own local machine etc
mircea_popescu: is it ~so wrong~ to want to have either literal or graphical display for a csv, as an option ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-10 05:00 mircea_popescu: https://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2016/04/29/yet-another-gtk-update/ for the entomologist ; one luzy moment in the endless stream of idiocy that is 3rd millenium foss.
mircea_popescu: but there;s a difference between graphical = "rounded corners" (in the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1821998 sense of that term, "One of the motivations for the changes is to enable animations and transitions. If you use gtk_style_context_save/restore in your draw() function, that prevents GTK+ from keeping the state that is needed to support animations; so you should avoid it when you can.") and graphical = "mp would lik
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then we don't.
ben_vulpes: i don't really see the point to importing rounded corners into republican tooling
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aQ0op/?raw=true << look at this thing, for the record. just look at it.
mircea_popescu has seen the "debug" "expert" modes on every browser, holy shit...
ben_vulpes: i'm amenable to dom as presentation model, but abhor the browser scripting language and the cpp hydras that render the html/css/jsoup. that said if we cut "teh modern webb!" off entirely, i'll hafta bifurcate my workbench.
ben_vulpes: implementing the DOM and all of the california complexity doesn't mesh neatly with the text rendering already extant. i use emacs as wm around browser and some other things (not many other things, really, but 'modern' dom-o-tron is sadly yet central to $work), for the expediency of my workbench having a single scriptinglang to move windows around, split whole monitor and arrange for specific workflows...
mircea_popescu: best definition of what a cult is, incidentally. "why was this cut there specifically ?" "i dunno." that's it, that's a cult. can't answer as to why was something cut where it was.
mircea_popescu: understand, i'm not proposing the one tru way here. but i do want to know why the cuts are made, if made. because otherwise wtf.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then, if no builtin browser, why have emacs as wm at all.
ben_vulpes: eww, the builtin browser is sorta step-up from lynx/links: no js, but can do images/svgs with the appropriate libs linked against
mircea_popescu: if emacs is the wm, then it'd better a) rid me of browser and b) be capable of previewing for me the graph / naked slut / we i'm about to put on trilema, both BEFORE uploading and as part of the final page preview.
mircea_popescu: of course, proceeding blindly and randomly from the wrong edge etc. but the problem is obvious enough even cumshots on cumshothub notice it.
mircea_popescu: which is why the idiots make feeble efforts to reunite them, as recently lulzed at wrt unity, a few days ago
mircea_popescu: you need these two piles of idiocy separate like you need a penis for peeing and another penis for also peeing.
mircea_popescu: leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).
phf: there are layers and layers of cruft, some things that we haven't mentioned but that's implicitly part of the conversation. should there be x11, should emacs be the first thing that linux boots and nothing else, etc.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/19/updates-on-the-renting-adventure/ << Bingo Blog - Updates On The Renting Adventure
mircea_popescu: thatr's why they even exist ever at all.
mircea_popescu: there's good reason to equate os and code editor, incidentally. as the ~fundamental~ job of an operating system is to transform machine failures into debug sessions.
mircea_popescu: as far as i can tell, we've not yet said "emacs is really not the name we give the tmsr-os"
mircea_popescu: consider the slime/elisp/c discussion again. how much of an os is this emacs going to be ?
phf: but the first one is about explicitly maintaining multiple contexts, the other one is a technical detail (at the end of the day who cares that emacs is the one doing the management?)
phf: there's two parallel discussions though, the technical should there be support for preemptive execution in whatever substrate (elisp virtual machine, linux, etc.) and the ux should the system give you ability to maintain multiple contexts
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:52 mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
mircea_popescu: but the dos discussion, as well as the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827171 should set this on sane footing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of 40 yrs of os braindamage, folx often confuse what they want , in that they think they want multithread, but really want nonblockage
mircea_popescu: phf trying to whittle down the "ide" vs "wm" dispute. multithreading is a major point here.
phf: mircea_popescu: do you mean should the editor perform all kinds of functions in parallel?
phf: asciilifeform: back then i had slightly different concerns, nor did i build anything that wasn't already built. the whole thing compiles with djgpp, clisp is also available. bulk of the code i wrote was either common lisp by way of clisp or allegro "games" and visual hacks and such
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way errybody loses ancient arts. by overwriting the parchments and wax tablets, by neglect, by 'surely won't need this again', lol
asciilifeform tried last yr, on a purpose-made box, to replicate it, and failed, lost the ancient art
trinque: possible I'd be entirely comfortable most days in a DOS + emacs, provided the term was big enough
mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also use it as wm; will endure the occasional freeze-ups because if emacs has died well then the whole machine's utility to me has gone to epsilon anyways
asciilifeform doesn't, because does not particularly like the 'emacs hosed, all machine may as well reset' dynamic
mircea_popescu: but if it can't do everything then why have it.
asciilifeform: ( tho i can picture a hypothetical commonlisp-emacs that doesn't ever need to socket , because has compiler inside, like ye olde borland )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except for the part where i keep putting uniturds in all the time, persian, chinese, whatever.
asciilifeform: phf: i dun think anybody will cry if we lose ssl. uniturds is tricker matter, e.g. asciilifeform routinely edits proggies with uniturds in'em , in ru, cn, etc, and they gotta at least display ( i'd be ok to swear off ~input~ of uniturds ) . socket of some form is prolly a must, to have either slime or anything like a replacement for it
mircea_popescu: moreover, and this is the very heart and soul of this here republic, one who discusses his problems acquires the two magical things : solutions ; and supporters. whereas one who toils in unknown "privacy" produces mcclims and such sad things.
mircea_popescu: myeah. and maybe the discussion is both a little premature and a little touching raw nerve ; but nevertheless the progress on packaging, first ave1 with musl, coming up trinque cuntoo, etc etc WILL lead to it.
mircea_popescu: because on the strength of "networking code C/elisp, that's required to use e.g. slime" how about you lot unearth the old borland c ide and use that and be happy.
mircea_popescu: is the networking code elisp or slime ?
phf: 19 is '98 technology, missing unicode, definitely missing ssl, i'm not sure how much networking code is there, etc. etc.
phf: mircea_popescu: see if i think that version secretly reveals how how many of the comforts of "modern" emacs we want to sacrifice, and likewise nails down the wants
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't even care so much about that, because of the well ilustrated, here and everywhere else, history of idiots involvement.
phf: well, i was hoping this conversation will steer towards which version we should go with. i'd love to try bringing 19 up to date, but i'm afraid the result of that effort will be that asciilifeform and trinque will just keep using own version on workshop. further into future we move, the gnarlier the code gets (i think i pasted 10x size increases with every new emacs release)
mircea_popescu: well, the soviets seem tho be inclined to think that's you.
phf: mircea_popescu: it's not, but as the mail trinque linked points out "the right solution requires a significant overhaul by someone with expertise in emacs internal"
mircea_popescu: because while pompously called "memory dump", it rather is just "make a binary out of lisp".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was an ugly hack around the horrendously slow interpreted elisp
asciilifeform: prolly backportable then
phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works
phf: at some point the implementation was reworked, i was certain that was 25, but trinque just said that he has a 24 version
phf: emacs does the same thing, except in order to do image dump it used some internal glibc (!!!) hack
phf: well, lisp machines have this concept of loading code into memory and then dumping the memory image for a fast restart later
phf: yeah, i'm slow right now, but i'll get there
phf: mircea_popescu: the emacs headache on musl that asciilifeform mentioned
trinque: yeah, there's patches to be had though
asciilifeform: trinque: recall, there was a headache with emacs on musl
mircea_popescu: if you don't wanna be potentially sexed, don't potentially open the potent doors.
mircea_popescu: it's a limited window, between (now, when we get the replacement going)
trinque: this is why I don't intend to put emacs into the genesis
asciilifeform: will be gnarly if cuntoo dun build grandfather-emacs without major butchery.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not really ; can get away with letting grandfathered systems work it. exactly how we bootstrap ada.
mircea_popescu fully expected another rehash of "oh, it's glacial", as people then present no doubt remember.
phf: there's also portable hemlock in common lisp and edwin in scheme
asciilifeform: slightly upstack -- even if mircea_popescu were to proclaim 'we gotta have climacs', ~100% of the work will be done ~in~... emacs
asciilifeform: ( last we heard, gabriel_laddel was still out there in the desert somewhere, trying to fix climacs )
mircea_popescu: exactly. it's a "risk free" adventure in the sense all one risks is own time.
mircea_popescu: trinque aha. something along the lines of http://trilema.com/2013/squares-do-morals-a-porno/#selection-519.0-519.243 i always figured (which, oddly enough, is not in logotron!)
phf: mircea_popescu: i get it, i'm being sloppy because i want it to be obvious that the box is indeed pandora's box
mircea_popescu: is this an intractable problem in itself, or do the sort of people who could do it, keep getting distracted with idiocy ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was always the Right Thing
trinque: throwing it out otherwise involves what, vimscript? or py, rubby, lua, etc. bindings
mircea_popescu: so basically the correct move is, throw out emacs, rewrite it in sane lisp ?
asciilifeform: theoretically no good reason to keep it. aside from the fact that current body of emacs is largely composed ~of~ it.
asciilifeform: climacs was the result of 'let's throw it out'
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what you're doing. this is what this opening of the pandora box is all about, trying to grok it once.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is the q 'why not write major proggies in elisp ' ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: depends on whether c-o to switch windows is cosmic truth or finger length / hand shape
trinque: freedom rather than bureau of keybindings, disorganized and distributed in the heads of shithub derps as it is
mircea_popescu: trinque so putatively, if i wish to tell someone some choice bits about his mother's sexual preferences in russian, i must first map A to A ?
phf: asciilifeform: would you actually use a version 19 of emacs, if we managed to bring it up to date? it's almost a rhetorical question, since the result is most likely going to miss all the third party modes that you currently use without extensive amount of elisp patching
trinque: I'm proposing the right design is that in installing any module for the editor, you must as a matter of protocol attach its functionality to your keyboard in order to use
mircea_popescu: trinque i confess i'm lost in metaphore. how do you map "i dunno how the fuck you close this damned thing" operator situation to it ?
mircea_popescu: not every time a dweeb dreams up a situation where he talks to the girl across is a relationship.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so the proper thing to say is, "climacs never existed"
asciilifeform: worse yet, climacs was afaik never properly finished ( the redraw is glacial, even on a heavy comp, and various pieces to this day broken ) because nobody could be arisen to properly finish it.
trinque: nah, it means I can speak any language I want to my girl, and she still knows how to take the mail from the courier
mircea_popescu: trinque so then your desk can't be part of paperwork delivery because courrier doesn't know how to leave you paper ; and you'll have to clea nthe room yourself as the black woman hired to clean the place can't interact with your desk ?
asciilifeform: sorta the bsd problem.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was the philosophy that produced 'climacs', an ab initio rewrite. which afaik ~nobody uses.
trinque: better situation would be "here kid, have some functions. it's your job to bind them"
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as most elisp in the wild is broken.
trinque: it's an AST editor, attaches a user interface to a parsed AST, keybindings have been considered part of the UI for a given grammar
mircea_popescu: well so then would you agree that " obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild" is actually a desirable situation ?
asciilifeform: the gnarl begins with the fact that all of these modes, were created by different folx, with no coordination
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: emacs is a 'modal' system, i.e. every programming language gets a mode, implemented as a set of elisp proggies, that completely changes the behaviour of the editor to (ideally) make it entirely suited to writing that particular form of text
mircea_popescu: seems to me it's the exact same problem, cat held by tail trying to scratch the hand holding it.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-17 19:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the machine itself, hardware-wise, is incapable of multiuser. it leaks its memory via cache timings on 3 or 4 different layers ; it lacks its state via nic delays, it leaks like a sieve.
mircea_popescu: as it stands right now, i truly can't grok the fundamental difference between the behaviour you describe and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-17#1814985
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
phf: so a set of functions that modify the contents of the buffer will usually include among other things script specific changes to keybindings, that are designed to slightly adjust the default global and make assumptions about what that default global is.
phf: mircea_popescu: scripting in emacs is to great extent about customizing the ux behavior of the system
phf: xahlee actually went as far as releasing egroemacs where he reworked every single keybinding, making the result obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild
mircea_popescu: which, imo, is enough to PERMANENTLY bury even the notion of "open source" as a "collaborative" endeavour.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my current understanding , is that each emacs user alive , at some time in his life, took the thing and whittled away the spikes that his particular hands fell on most often.
mircea_popescu: phf the problem there is, that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing this.
trinque: proper way to use it is to M-x and run the function you want, and when that starts to ache you bind it to something quicker
mircea_popescu: yes well. complicated. discussing the simple things in lieu of the things being discussed is not much of a strategy.
phf: v19 most people agree was the pinnacle of old school emacs, making that the default though is entirely impractical since most of the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along the versions is the movement from "pure emacs" towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.
mircea_popescu: and the discussion isn't "default ones". discussion is "cultural ones", ie, "the complete mass of expectations"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that when jurov pointed it out, you jumped. why ? if you know this is so, then it is so.
asciilifeform: the default ones aren't merely short leg, but rusty nails protruding in 9000 places on 'desk'
asciilifeform: not admit which ? it's obvious as daylight that the thing is a danger to life and limb if uncrated by naive lamer and used as-is
phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
asciilifeform: as repeatedly pointed out by e.g. naggum, the defaults pre-date pc kbd and are ~guaranteed to give you carpal disease
phf: mircea_popescu: my short log metaphor example would've been the key bindings. there are conventions, they are not always followed, and often they have to be recustomized on a per-mode basis, or else you just memorize the abysmal defaults and stick to them.
trinque: eh, sometimes you q, sometimes c-g, other times ..., I get it
asciilifeform: jurov: of all the sharp edges emacs indubitably has -- i have yet to witness this one.
asciilifeform: in so far asciilifeform is concerned, the 'universal' workstation is emacs-in-ratpoison.
mircea_popescu: dawgs, the question was as to usercount. he answered, that he dun use it. what moar.
jurov: trinque there was always some mode or context or something where it did not work
asciilifeform: ( and who the FUCK cares that something doesn't work uniformly on e.g. microshit ? )
jurov: pls don't ask me anything about emacs. i use (neo)vim. tried several times to use emacs and gave up in anger - for example, there isn't even universal keystroke to change between windows/close a window.
phf: well if we're talking about moving your desk around the office, then emacs is kind of tool that comes with various desk parts, and you can attach them together, but one of the legs is going to be short, so you spend some time replacing the desk leg, etc. etc.
mircea_popescu: because yes, the exact sort of objection (we're only counting the cogent ones, washed out of 10bn words of idiocy outside the gates) brought against emacs can (and was) brought against desk by orcs. "o, by the time you're done moving it around the meadow the boar long left" "what boar ?" "the one you were going to shoot inkwell at, silly." "oh i c"
trinque: I would stand by the claim that emacs *can* be a time-sink, just as moving your desk around the office each day can, but it doesn't have to be, and isn't inherent in the tool
trinque: I don't venture too far down the tree of possible customizations beyond assemble workbench, make tools readytohand, start working
mircea_popescu: because this is a major, no, strike that, this is THE major fucking decision here.
mircea_popescu: trinque so are you basically taking the stand where you swear that emacs is actually productive, in the sense of taking less time to customize for and solve new problem than trivial approach, and therefore it's the incorect habits of the common user rather than the harmful structure of emacs that's to blame ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: largely because idiots. however there's a number of structural problems (e.g inability to handle word wrap in anything like a reasonable way) that attract ~infinite kludge-hours from all sorts of folx
trinque: didn't take that long to get to the point where I can throw tiled window arrangements on screen with a few keyboard twitches
phf: trinque: which version was your original baseline by the way?
trinque lives in the thing as window manager even
asciilifeform: in heathendom it is always either 'eh gnarly pos who needed it ever' or 'hands off my sacred animal, i'll shoot'
mircea_popescu: can you answer this ? is the "emacs is fun to customize, and comes with guarantee that it will solve any x hour problem in x * 1.17 ^ your age hours" ?
mircea_popescu: i was counting the "experts" outside of here. those things that exist, you know.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the best object of comparison is imho trb.
mircea_popescu: ie it seems to me the ~attempt~, whether it should succeed or fail, will be productive nevertheless.
asciilifeform: it's ~every emacsist's problem . at the same time, it is , like old arthritic pair of hands, better than no hands.
mircea_popescu: phf we will have to somehow resolve this issue, because neither of the current outcomes is seemly. having republicans use the google drive systemd website thing is idiotic ; taking people's shit is idiotic. wut do.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking, i'm not opposed to the idea, but i was also the person saying in logs that emacs is harmful and should be abandoned altogether. i can bring together whatever's asciilifeform and trinque are using for their workshops, and adopt it for myself also..
mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?
trinque: asciilifeform: isn't one, can sit in the next vpatch
douchebag: in the event I don't find any vulnerabilities that week
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he's all yours, knock out the hanging stool whenever you feel like
asciilifeform: douchebag: it helps to learn to tell the truth, at least in spare time, as hobby. folx dun like liars. ( and yes lie is mandatory in usg/sv. but it dun win you any friends here. )
asciilifeform: thing is quite ripe for the trb treatment.
douchebag: The problem is, I have a lot of things going on in my life and I need a source of income. I don't have time to work on projects right now without ending up homeless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform phf in any case it's high time emacs is either dropped or published.
mircea_popescu: the great glorious gleaming victories of men alone.