asciilifeform: Mocky: the rpc thing is ugly and there were experiments re replacing it ( e.g. 'shiva', scheme interpreter bolted on to trb ) but this took a back seat to moar pressing matters ( control of memory footprint ; sane sync behaviour; coupla other items ) and to this day rpc is still there.
a111: Logged on 2016-02-28 05:45 asciilifeform: it is to be amputated ~whole~. no motherfucking stumps.
Mocky: I'm confused about trb rpc. Log search suggests for the first year+ of bitcoin foundation rpc was marked for death: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-28#1417175 but then there's dump / eat block based on rpc? Is this a new version of rpc, I don't see a new version announced on the mailing list. Can someone sum this up for me, I'm having trouble following the history.
asciilifeform: generally speaking unless one or moar of your deps is weird in the 'emacs' way (i.e. does something obscene with glibc-specific pheatures) it's a straight mechanical job, like rotor.
asciilifeform: of the mentioned libs, zlib is known to me to work under musltronic build; libmysqlclient i had not occasion to test
diana_coman: well, either there is cuntoo and then can try with it or there isn't, in which no choice apparently other than rotor buildroot style
asciilifeform: mod6 is the one who 100% automated asciilifeform's rotor builder; you may want to use his model, ~iff~ waiting for cuntoo is not permissible
diana_coman: I see; in that case it would seem cuntoo is needed then indeed
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 08:34 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827895 <- my (possibly naive) idea was to try first on conventional gentoo by recompiling with musltronic gcc what I need; asciilifeform perhaps knows upfront: would it work to (re-)emerge libs such as zlib and libmysqlclient using the musltronic-gcc?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827977 << 're-emerge' seems to imply systemwide ? you're more or less guaranteed a borked box, muslism has to be done either rotor-style (i.e. 100% user-local build of 1 proggy at a time) or systemwide ( trinque's cuntoo ), on account of the impossibility of cleanly linking glibc libs to musl proggy or vice versa
diana_coman: I should add in case it's not clear that part of the reason for trying to do it starting from a conventional gentoo is that it gives a recipe to apply afterwards (if it works, obv) to current server too
diana_coman: obviously, failing this first approach, next would be to get cuntoo on it and try it directly there; as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827894
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827889 <- in short because existing machine is production environment, there are limits to doing experiments on it
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827895 <- my (possibly naive) idea was to try first on conventional gentoo by recompiling with musltronic gcc what I need; asciilifeform perhaps knows upfront: would it work to (re-)emerge libs such as zlib and libmysqlclient using the musltronic-gcc?
mircea_popescu: oh nm he says that literally the next line. sucks to be me!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827930 << by now they're so fucking disgusting any form of conversation besides beating them black and blue and urinating on the remains is squarely outta da question.
asciilifeform: these are actually quite ancient, iirc early '80s performance given in house at hewlettpackard
asciilifeform: ( fwiw i have copy of the films , from decade+ ago , on cd )
asciilifeform: esthlos: i had nfi these were ever hosted on lolcattube to begin with
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, but of some significant vintage, i think it's either 21 or 22. i doubt 26 works, and i feel like i've seen "msdos no longer supported" changelog entries
phf: emacs still has msdos folder in tree, all the way to 26. i wonder if that still compiles, or the folder is a lie
asciilifeform: btw phf i nominate you as the hero who will produce msdos gnat.
asciilifeform: machines, time, phase of the moon, alignment of planets, sunspots
asciilifeform: 'build that iterates over the keys of a Perl hash will have problems, since these elements are also returned in a variable order' << perlism has gotta go.
asciilifeform: 'Unix doesn't specify an order in which readdir() and listdir() should return the contents of a directory, so components can get built in an unpredictable order' << this is gonna need a cure.
asciilifeform: 'Lamb referred to a build that had been made non-reproducible by a 15-digit random number that was generated during each build and baked into the resulting binary. It turned out that it was used as an OpenID secret, which meant that everyone running a given build of the software was using the same secret key.' << genius...
asciilifeform: btw as soon as ave1 fully pins down his gnat, 1st order of biznis is the burning out with hot irons of all timestampism and misc crapola emitted into binaries
asciilifeform: 'In the tricky middle ground of 95-96%, his position would depend on why builds were non-reproducible, as there are a few valid reasons for this to happen. In response to another question, he said that two good reasons for a non-reproducible build were packages that build inside their own virtual machine, such as Emacs, and security packages with signing keys such as secure boot. ' << lolwaaat
phf: further kommunity conversation on reproducible builds https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/757118/f2f894279576c348/
ben_vulpes: i'll need until late-july to kit out the bays
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 16:46 mircea_popescu: which brings us to : ben_vulpes would pizarro be amenable to bring up the spare sometime so she makes it a full gnat musl thing, test whether we can move everything there, and either move it (so basically, moving servers) or else backing down (so basically i guess either renting both for a while or powerting back down the spare) ?
mircea_popescu: anyone recall them starburst candies ?
mircea_popescu: and in other "ddr trainset" memorabilia, went by wurstspezialitäten tienda, got gal a packet of maoam
a111: Logged on 2015-10-03 19:56 mircea_popescu: ascii_field as the verse goes, "comunismu-ntii te-ajuta, tac tac tac, si apoi te executa, pac pac pac."
mircea_popescu: theere we go.
mircea_popescu: if he gets thrown in jail by the exact fucktards he lied and stole for, i might even go visit, to point and laugh.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, it was my very good pleasure to see that shithead morgan freeman besieged by the idiocy come to roost that he dedicated so much of his life to helping spawn.
asciilifeform: in principle they'll execute anywhere with 2.6+ kernel abi.
asciilifeform: right, ave1 produced a working self-builder gnat. nobody's bolted it into a gentoo in such a way that ~everything~ gets built with it, of yet. ( this as i understand is in the cuntoo conveyor )
mircea_popescu: wasn't the idea that we build it with itself and so on ?
mod6: Again, less complete emergency. Let's see if we can source whatever parts are needed at 'ye ole iron shop', or other method, before I think about dropping everything.
mod6: <+diana_coman> asciilifeform, BingoBoingo it is NOT asap, no; take your time, no hurry << barring a straight out emergency, I can't get away at the moment. About a month ago, I was trying to plan a trip around end of July; but now, that's locked out.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: ^ plox to confirm << >> <+asciilifeform> there is a 860 in bilge, marked 'tbf' << sounds like TBF has a spare 860 then. makes sense.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 17:59 asciilifeform: i'ma ask that anyffing sent to asciilifeform for transport, be either marked (if sent from human hands) or serial # gpggrammed to asciilifeform , so he can mark it.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: plox to gpggram to BingoBoingo , tracking # etc, when it has sailed << Between these and the disks... mod6 interested in a trip?
asciilifeform: ( let's imagine, say, the eulora folx suddenly want to connect 6 FG's. currently cannot do )
asciilifeform: so he can work the necessary magicks
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes , didja ever send the stockpile of FG usb-ttl connectors, over to BingoBoingostan ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the s.mg spare is inventory # 26 ( w/ redundant ps )
asciilifeform: observe that the cost of the disk itself has fallen by ~100bux since april; seems like the ssd famine may be ending
asciilifeform: i just now tried the quote , it's a linear equation
asciilifeform: is the tardlimit
asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-6-20#383922 << of interest to potentially all pizarro customers ; updated disk cost ( via the method used to deliver BingoBoingo the cable in earlier experiment )
asciilifeform: even so, better to start the train going, so disks etc can be 'yes!! we have disks!' if suddenly a primary box goes up in smoke, rather than 'oh hmm where do we get some disks'.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> the 6tb WD is also mine << That was marked
asciilifeform: i'ma ask that anyffing sent to asciilifeform for transport, be either marked (if sent from human hands) or serial # gpggrammed to asciilifeform , so he can mark it.
trinque: the 6tb WD is also mine
asciilifeform: ( in the fyootoor, folx, plz label your iron ! )
trinque: I have the 1tb 860 evo
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but whose is the 850 ?
ben_vulpes: yeah, that's the foundation's drive
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: at your earliest chance, plox to install the 3ware raid and its cabling marked 'smg', in the respective machine.
asciilifeform: there is a 860 in bilge, marked 'tbf'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: put your sp study to use in the battlefield.
asciilifeform: disk shortage is serious problem imho, these will have to be an absolute priority item for next airdrop. the tricky bit is that the only reliable way to transport'em, without triggering the ruinous tax, is inside machines.
asciilifeform: iirc there is also a cold spare ssd belonging to mod6 , can work something out with him.
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu if you need this box asap, it is possible to pull the hot spare from primary and make a single-disked staging box out of the spare.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: correct, and ben_vulpes , trinque , lobbes ( iirc ) send in disks , which then went into it
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to correct the above disk spec if necessary
ave1: I.E. I could reprocude this error by first compiling aarch64 with ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada aarch64 and then running the script with making that line: ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada x86_64
BingoBoingo: I can pull the chassis out of the cabinet and see if they drives are hiding in there somewhere other than the drive bays.
ave1: Yes, that one looked like a build / host / target def problem. Which usually goes back to the build-tarballs line.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to visit ye olde iron shoppe then, and obtain quote for 5 1tb ssd, if available, or output re what is available, if these are not
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I looked at the iron on my way back to the terminal after Uruguay's disappointing 1-0 victory
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to confirm this by physically looking at the iron
a111: Logged on 2018-06-04 04:26 ave1: asciilifeform, also what is in the build-ada.sh? the last line on aarch64 should read: ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada aarch64 x86_64
ave1: asciilifeform, I did get it to cross compile on aarch64 too, it was a question of more memory. Do you still have an error log? Also the order has to be correct in the build-ada.sh. Like so: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-04#1820499
asciilifeform: oh grr loox from my notes, to be the case that only the primary s.mg box was provisioned with disk
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> diana_coman: plox to gpggram BingoBoingo re necessary qty of FGs, the raid geometry to use ( 5? 10? ) , necessary # of nic connections, he will bring up the box. << The server needs drives to set up a raid
asciilifeform: when ave1 comes back with patch for cross-x64 , it will be time to genesis the thing
asciilifeform: what i'd like to end up with, is to make ave1's gnat the default gcc in my gentoos ( and , in time, in cuntoo )
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item which did not work, is the building of x64 gnat ~on~ arm64 gnat, iirc he went to fix this and not yet come back )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, aha, that's pretty much the recipe I'll try to follow
asciilifeform: a musl-gnat is first built, using a conventional gnat; this is then installed in user homedir, placed in path, and becomes the active gnat; with which then can build musltronic proggies.
diana_coman: aha, that was my understanding so that's good then
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you don't need cuntoo to build musl executables, ave1's gnat does this on an ~arbitrary linux. ( via similar method as the 2015 'rotor' item )
diana_coman: so there is a chance it'll work; if not, at least I'll know what part is even more idiotic than the rest
asciilifeform: just about errything that doesn't abuse some glibc-specific knob, runs 100% under muslism ( e.g. trb, which was the first proggy i personally built for musl, back in the http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000133.html days )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:08 phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works
asciilifeform: ( there may be a pill to work around this, but i do not currently know it )
asciilifeform: re linkers, musl lib can only be linked with other musl libs, but prolly diana_coman already knew this.
diana_coman: the server is a ball of fuck that was trimmed from earth-size to country-size, but still
asciilifeform: it will be getting the asciilifeform-baked trad gentoo, from same tar.gz as dulap and orig s.mg.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and the usb boot stick.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to connect ipkvm device also then
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to gpggram BingoBoingo re necessary qty of FGs, the raid geometry to use ( 5? 10? ) , necessary # of nic connections, he will bring up the box.
mircea_popescu: the above + "keep clear and reproducible notes of all steps" is pretty much 100% the profession.
mircea_popescu: you know, engineering, that thing where you try to change the smallest count of things per step
diana_coman: and I'm not that keen on testing on yet another arch basically
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no, not on rockchip, on s.mg server but basically just setting for the session the $PATH to point to musl gnat
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: out of curiosity, was the initial test of adatronic serv on rockchip ? how did it perform ?
asciilifeform: i delivered also its raid card, it is currently in its crate, in the bilge.
ben_vulpes: sounds reasonable, let me check notes and see if there's any reason not to
mircea_popescu: which brings us to : ben_vulpes would pizarro be amenable to bring up the spare sometime so she makes it a full gnat musl thing, test whether we can move everything there, and either move it (so basically, moving servers) or else backing down (so basically i guess either renting both for a while or powerting back down the spare) ?
mircea_popescu: in other news, diana_coman reports that we've actually managed moving the actual server on a .gpr process ; there's some remaining problems with linking bits, but seem perhaps resolvable.
mircea_popescu: in other-same lulz, usg amping up the "upgrading" of "secure" http sites off the interwebs.
diana_coman: (for the innocent reader, see point #2 in http://trilema.com/2014/a-compendium-of-basic-points-about-bitcoin-for-the-benefit-of-various-confused-noobs/#selection-127.0-127.77)
FundsAreSafuh: The thrill of buying 60 BTC, and spending it all on cannabis. The exhilaration of learning PGP for the first time. The realization that FeedZeBirds was a scam.
FundsAreSafuh: I guess nostalgia brought me back, and the realization that things are never going to be the same. I'm just a former MPOE holder come back to join the ol' gang
FundsAreSafuh: I made a small fortune trading Friedcat's ASICMINER shares on GLBSE, before Nefario disappeared. Now I'm a crypto nomad spending time between NYC and the Republic of Panama
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: do also make use of the search box.
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: you won't win much from plain lurking, i recommend to read the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/
FundsAreSafuh: I used to lurk here quite often back in the 2014-2015 days, back then I used to be mentioned on the channel for some of my BitcoinTalk antics
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: can i presume you read the logs ?
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 00:36 asciilifeform: phf: the emacs tumour (see logz, the 'flycheck' thread) is what really blew my mind
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826916, I don't use emacs. I've tried it on an off and after reading the logs I'm sure I do not want to get "locked in" to it.
mircea_popescu: "YOU ARE READING Deep Web (The HIDDEN PART OF INTERNET)"
mircea_popescu: aaand in today's lulzies, https://www.wattpad.com/392099770-deep-web-the-hidden-part-of-internet-lolita-slave
mod6: i like the emacs/x11 thread
phf: hmm true, also the soviets probably wouldn't make those german style train stations
mircea_popescu: phf funny, rails linked from there look 100% like "patriotic knockoff rails"
mircea_popescu: it's the details though, like say the conical buffer plate supports, or the electrified wheel and so on
phf: honestly half of the ones i saw, from a totally different range of companies, look familiar, but i suspect that at least moscovites got the ussr version, probably something like this http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/images/portal_files/vasily/istoriya_proizvodstva/ov_05.jpg
phf: oh lol apparently they made them in ussr also http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/our-library/2008-05-07-13-48-02/117-2008-07-23-17-21-55
mircea_popescu: in fact all of their track shots look exactly like it
phf: or two rather
phf: but if i had to guess from picture there's two straights at the end and three curves in the middle
phf: yeah, i'm pretty sure they've not even made flexible ones until quite recently
mircea_popescu: mine were definitely rigid. pre-curved elements. had to mix and match, i had a ballot of them
phf: huh i don't remember that style at all. looks like metal too, the ones that i had were plastic, kind of like https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L350032-LN_3314489_Qty1_1.jpg
mircea_popescu: selector sat on an inclined cutout in the box, and the voltage was represented by squarish indentations on either side, increasing in size ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the plastic pine trees, round things go on a stick ?
mircea_popescu: i didn't have incline ramps in mine. but yes, these existed
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes generally around the age of 10-12 or so discover it can be applied to soft parts also.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: don't tell the inca but i fly
ben_vulpes: "flies" is a bit strong; i like big kinetic-energy toys and have friends with them.
ben_vulpes: it is the gliders that are actually hard.
ben_vulpes: and this is why i still don't have many male friends "we're going to go fly quadcopters!" "...why don't we drive out to the hangar and take the plane out instead?"
phf: well shit buy him a squirrel suit then i dunno
ben_vulpes: i eventually learned that unless i can feel the gs in the seat of my pants i have trouble giving much of a fuck
phf: but yeah, there was a shortage of age appropriate games in russia. parents would keep you from breaking something by basically going "if you break it, i'll give you away to mr. policeman" and such.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, you need a nice length of tracks, nor do you need to make it a circle (just close the circuit by other means). it can figure nicely in any kind of gameplay, but honestly it gave me my first experiential understanding of electricity
asciilifeform: oh hey i had phf 's train. aaand the... abusable.. transformer, of course
ben_vulpes: phf: i had a set quite like that as well, but never got into it. "so, it goes around? and if you go too fast, it pops off the track?" brio also more for the 2-5 set
phf: traditionally in ru we had https://www.fleischmann.de/en/productsearch/0-0-0-0-0-0-0-001001-0/products.html which was powered from outlet and down converted. trains would go, when place on conductive tracks and you controlled the speed with a potentiometer, so there's some fucking montesori going on
ben_vulpes: these days battery-operated chinesium
ben_vulpes: the fuck kind of kid wants to watch a train roll about at 1 cm/min
ben_vulpes: "brio" actually ships battery-powered "engines", these days, with wheels that resist turning except when driven by batteries, if you can imagine.
ben_vulpes: i have a stack of blank index cards upon which i write or draw whatever thing i feel like training the kid on at any given moment. "memory" games with shapes and letters and numbers, the alphabet and numbers, just starting in on word shapes. beyond that, no blinkenlichten, no plastics, a commitment to correcting diction and grammar all day and i'm pretty sure one's into diminishing returns after that
ben_vulpes: the montesorri stuff makes me laugh. oh, you mean the little learning machine thrives on new and varied challenges? you don't fucking say
asciilifeform: ( this is sorta the leitmotif of asciilifeform's crackpottery . )
asciilifeform: the interesting twist is, even on comparatively deadly simple artificial comp, with 0 pretenses to 'conscious' anyffing, the notion that the soft is fully separable from the iron substrate, is poppycock.
mircea_popescu: if only they somehow could not be...
mircea_popescu: but yes, the universal, uniyelding, perpetual and ubiquitous problem of "people" who were born even though god didn't have souls to supply the meat with is this : life's too heavy a burden.
mircea_popescu: wank is wank is wank. what do you mean "mathematical representation" ? ie, "depersonalization" ? how exactly is the number 3 going to be "personal"
esthlos: to be fair to egan, the actual supposition is not that consciousness exists "in" computer, but that it has a mathematical representation. not that it affects mircea_popescu 's point
phf: yeah, a computer program will produce the same result whether it runs on slow cpu or fast cpu. fascinating read.
phf: i think the causation is backwards, egan chooses substrate, assumes consciousness can exist on that substrate, then explores properties of substrate. doesn't say anything interesting about consciousness, but exploration of substrate. since naive mechanistic cellular machine interpretations are in vogue, that's the substrate that egan works with.
asciilifeform: ^ them
asciilifeform: esthlos: i do not know whether egan knows this, but buncha doped californirasts took his 'software souls' thing and turned it into a religion, of sorts
asciilifeform: esthlos: d00d was sorta obsessed with this notion. he had another, earlier short story where mob boss is walking a schmuck into the forest to be shot, and tells him this yarn, and offers him a magic pill that will make it sink into his head, and ends up taking it himself, and eating own pistol
esthlos: but then what _is_ the cpu state but an arrangement of electrons? and why can't I say "these electrons on my butt are cpu state 53, those on alpha centauri are cpu state 54..."
esthlos: my vague understanding is: if consciousness can exist "in" a computer, then what happens when the cpu states are reorganized arbitrarily, or distributed spatially? egan supposes that conscious entity can't detect the effect.
phf: i think it's like transhumanist porn, the idea that consciousness will preserve its form on whatever substrate, so with some Quantum Physics we can have "humans" operating at subatomic levels by being there.
esthlos: mircea_popescu: I have not. gotta add it to the list
esthlos: any thoughts on the "consciousness jumping noncontinuously from electron to electron" speil? in the sense that, it seems dumb, but kinda sexy too
phf: i've accidentally read greg egan's quarantine, followed by schild's ladder, i take it once you read one of his novels you've read all of them, unless i choose a particularly similar narratives
asciilifeform: http://letstalkstory.com/readme/The%20Diamond%20Age.pdf >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8IcZb/?raw=true << 313337 w4r3z
Mocky: the view that ambient human brain damage level is strictly curable by 'education'
asciilifeform: the old midas touch story, better still.
mircea_popescu: the old gigas ring stories better.
esthlos doesn't know the first thing about ruling
mircea_popescu: esthlos ruling the world is not a solitary endeavour.
asciilifeform: 'it will be greatest education device!' 'people can watch great theatre!'
esthlos: neal stephenson gave a pretty lulzy rendition of the dynabook in the diamond age. poor kid gets ahold of the republican technology, goes on to rule the world
asciilifeform: phf: picture if it had been buildable then. then alankay could be sad and go to the bottle 40 yrs earlier, because 'this is not what i wanted, ended up ipad'
esthlos: phf: oh yes, the dynabook, you're right
phf: esthlos: i don't think that's the case, squeak was his main apple project, but even going before than dynabook was already in the works at parc
mircea_popescu: they're usually very excited about "brain percentages" and usually mozart figures in the verbiage.
mircea_popescu: often they band together and try to opress young republicans with "programs for exclelence" batshit insane nonsense along the veins of "this kid learned to read at 3 months old!"
mircea_popescu: but the shocking part is, they have no formal diffusion, they're all individual/solitary and yet very uniformly minded.
asciilifeform: at one time, in '70s, there was this crackpottery, 'programming will be like literacy, EVERYONE!11 will know it'. turns out -- troo! with the tidbit that it is ~exactly~ like actual literacy, and scarcely exists, and not 1 in 500 is physiologically capable of it
Mocky: oh man dr dobbs, haven't seen that in ages. I used to get the dead tree version
mircea_popescu: quite possibly all choked on something they read
phf: they are all inspired by dead poets society, "oh captain my captain" and all that stuff
esthlos: phf: I think he wanted to build something for adults, but his work at apple disillusioned him, american adults too retarded for multiple desktops etc. so then yeah, pedo phase
mircea_popescu: "if only children floated in a soup of abstraction there'd be no world hunger" sorta wikiwank.
mircea_popescu: "THE CONCEPTS!!!!"
mircea_popescu: "oh, the children" hurr durr, always boils down to a sort of listless, old pedophile's excitement.
mircea_popescu: phf amusingly, this is a ~type~, like the 90s academic in the pepit jacket with the square bag slung over shoulder.
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't know if there's a definition, "idea" would've been a better term. in any case i've never heard anything concrete, except for the papert/piaget/montessori like esthlos said statements.
asciilifeform: we definitely had the alan kay thread
mircea_popescu: o brother.
esthlos: his model is mostly based on papert, piaget, and montessori. "The Children's Machine" etc
phf: alan kay's fixation on children though always confused me, and i think was the undoing of most of his children. like his definition of what children want or like is that of a person profoundly out of touch.
mircea_popescu: because they permitted all sorts of patibulaires take over the show. with retards like marc shitdressen and paul graham handling the funding, usg tech went to shit.
esthlos: phf: you know, about a year ago I wrote Alan Kay asking wtf happened to computing since the days of darpa and xerox parc. his response was "funding now sux"
phf: esthlos: that was never the case (though it certainly looked that way didn't it), the golden age of vlsi happened because of a darpa grant, essentially "give us your designs, we'll fab it for you free of charge"
mircea_popescu: i like the arrangement.
asciilifeform: esthlos: they only ever built it in the '1 chip at a time with slave labour and oh most of'em dun actually work' sense.
ben_vulpes: and so the girlies shack up with other girlies, the boys retire to secular onasteries, and they all think it precisely tits.
esthlos: asciilifeform: my understanding is that most unis used to have chip fab facilities much like machining facilities, and profs would regularly build iron. did something make the cost skyrocket? (maybe in logz: I will read)
mircea_popescu: and in the spirit of their imbecility, they think this failure justifies... MORE OF THE CAUSE OF IT
mircea_popescu: jesus christ, imagine this wonder, two decades of "political corecntess" and "stop rape" and "yes means notanal" and whatever the fuck "empathy" and "really really understanding girls" and whatnot has reduced success rate to 0%
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i doubt there's what knows how to use a slut on that campus
esthlos: tho they do have some stuff going for them. nuclear reactor, excellent math and sciences. but yes, intolerable student body
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i dunno about that, man. from the slut's angle, there's a lot of plain fucking going about.
asciilifeform: there's a fab in usa where, believe or not, they still make 2um classics like cdp1802 for usg. but they dun take walkins.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: it's all the poor dears know
asciilifeform: esthlos: one of the yet-uncured ills is that you cannot actually pay to have a 1980s cpu made, at the current houses, all they offer is 'download this winblowz crapola and use our 60nm standard cells and oh here sign nda for whole thing'
ben_vulpes: esthlos: ah, once a classy joint i hear. since then, well, epicenter of "i don't date nazis" nonsense
asciilifeform: esthlos: i recommend to read whole set of search output earlier, as part of your log eating , there was even an instance where asciilifeform went and got actual quotes from small fab houses
esthlos: reed. still have some friends out there
esthlos had the displeasure to go to school in portland
asciilifeform: esthlos: the saving grace is that, outside of several very particular 'arms race' applications (e.g. miner) there is no actual reason to build the low-nm stuff
esthlos: asciilifeform: I've heard stories from someone who works the floor of an Intel plant in Oregon. seems like a very costly operation for those low-nm processors
asciilifeform: esthlos: there were several old threads where the subject of 'what's it cost to bake cpu' is reviewed.
asciilifeform: esthlos: the one piece of iron which was catastrophically absent was rng, and this was fixed
asciilifeform: ergo the keeping of linux, emacs, etc on life support.
esthlos: somewhat on topic, as someone still reading logz: is eventual plan tmsr dataflow lispm revival? heathen iron has to be abandoned, no?
phf: Mocky: fwiw everything inside emacs is a side effect of essentially confining the lisp machine vm to the emacs process. on lisp machines proper the process was inside out: stick emacs everywhere you needed a text editor, but otherwise have separate programs.
asciilifeform: ( granted, oasis where the giraffes , hippos, shit in the water, but nevertheless surrounded by sand as far as eye can see and quite appealing to the initiated )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:21 asciilifeform: in heathendom it is always either 'eh gnarly pos who needed it ever' or 'hands off my sacred animal, i'll shoot'
Mocky: emacs. which to me explains org mode and emails and browser in emacs, and i suppose the emacs+ratpoison. but in any case a lot of that useful shit dun belong stuck inside an editor
Mocky: revisiting emacs: the problem for me, and the reason i quit it after ~1 year is that the cut between editor / os / keyboard was so obviously wrong. once you get comfortable with the useful stuff in there it sucks that you then can *only* use it in emacs. what, i can't have a decent editor for anything outside of emacs? most of the answers to that question are either a) fuck emacs or b) fuck everything outside of
asciilifeform: su-made mil-logic also is pretty tolerant of overvoltage, thermal abuse, etc.
asciilifeform: some time last yr , asciilifeform , for lulz, stuffed a few units from stash into reader, read. they contained apparently valid z80olade. and, when erased and written to, hold the contents 100% ok
asciilifeform: they tend to evaporate from market quickly, gold recyclers hunt'em down.
asciilifeform: these will prolly last for 500yr of powerup, if left alone
mircea_popescu: i always suspected su never got enough foreign made to end up with the conventions.
asciilifeform: seems like ro kept the amer inscriptions