nubbins`: because hey, everyone is a robot but her and she's the only person whose time is valuable
ThickAsThieves: "you can pick them up whenever i'm here"
nubbins`: today: "i'll pick them up at 2pm". 2:45: "i'll be there soon." 3:00: "can i pick them up at 4?"
ThickAsThieves: it works in reverse too, like when you say something that's seems painfully clear, it gets interpreted as the much less likely but arguable possible version
ThickAsThieves: "i was going to ask you to write a check for the floor guy, but he's leaving now" "ok, but he's here now, i can write a check now, right?" "he's leaving now" "so write a check for him now?" "yes, that's what i said."
davout: kakobrekla: where's the bitbet on mtgox's solvency ?
Jere_Jones: Now maybe I can re-read the earlier discussion and it will make more sense.
Jere_Jones: Yeah. I didn't know the snsa part. :)
gribble: S.NSA - Cardano pricing, other statements pe Trilema - Un blog de ...: <http://trilema.com/snsa-cardano-pricing-other-statements>; S.NSA, January 2014 Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea ...: <http://trilema.com/2014/snsa-january-2014-statement/>; S.NSA pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: <http://trilema.com/category/snsa/>
davout: (i'm so fucking scared now to say the ama zing word)
mike_c: mircea_popescu: i don't know what the discrepency is, but my logs disagree with that. Like I am seeing that Jan. 25th and Jan. 28th were basically down all day and I just got stock bid/asks from the market depth feed. who knows. i'll look for bugs in my poller sometime.
jurov: then you want completely sterile machine that's booted every time from image, anyway
asciilifeform: jurov: ideally, there would be nothing on the pc that suggests ownership of a cardano.
jurov: but i did not mean the gpg plugin to ask cardano to encrypt/sign automatically
davout: however the attack is easily detectable in taht case
asciilifeform: not that a human, driving a pwned machine remotely, will remain permanently unaware that the victim owns a cardano
davout: if at some point encrypted copy appears, user pulled the trigger
asciilifeform: davout: because it doesn't appear until the trigger is pulled
asciilifeform: if you have any dedicated software component on the pc end (e.g. browser plugin), it is a target.
asciilifeform: but consider the question of whether an attacker can automatically determine that cardano is present and in use.
asciilifeform: only the human knows
asciilifeform: jurov: one of the reasons why cardano is that the host machine does not automatically know that a cryptographic widget, as such, is plugged in.
jurov: and use it to auth to the service and verify sensitive data it got back
jurov: it's sufficient if the sensitive server has minimal interface exposed to frontend and does not implicitly trust it
davout: asynchronicity is merely a consequence of "the frontend doesn't know shit about where the sensitive server is"
davout: the best way to design security is IMHO to consider that you're already compromised, at least to some extent
davout: because if you work from the assumption that no frontend/app server will ever be compromised you're in for a world of pain
davout: jurov: the problem with showing the GPG data in browser is that said data would be generated asynchronously
jurov: if it is sound project, maybe everyone at #assets can push it for their projects
jurov: triyng to develop it would prolly be best way to let nsa goons to identify themselves :D
jurov: pity there isn't a plugin that can verify it, tho
davout: imma replace bitcoin addresses displayed on the website by gpg-signed e-mail receipts for example
davout: maybe i'll end up using them if i can make sure nothing sensitive goes thru
davout: jurov: i'm used to ozbot fetching the <title>, doesn't really matter :-)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ThickAsThieves: gmaxwell: wumpus: yea, I understand they had timed automatic reissues... :( this was also something I didn't know prior to monday before last and is one of the other reasons my "they couldn't have lost much!" position softened to "I have no freeking clue."
KRS-One: He should just send the 5000 euros to me, at least I'll send him an autographed nudic pic back for his troubles.
gribble: Bitstamp | A market order to sell 40000 bitcoins right now would net 13173637.7416 USD and would take the last price down to 100.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 329.3409 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0292 seconds
mircea_popescu: there's a coupla bn in 2015 notes that are being written off.
mircea_popescu: word around the campfire.
Duffer1: has there been any b-a discussion of kurzweil or singularity?
Vexual: hey bugpowder, do yo uthink you can sell fireants with double testosterone to the ethical standards comitte?
Vexual: i ypothesise that you can't put too many ants into a colony, something normal will happen
Vexual: worldpop was smaller then mircea, it's all skinny jeans now
Vexual: either way its prolly closer to 500m than 0 in a sense
greenspan_fan: I was thinking more "users" to inflate their statistics
greenspan_fan: I wonder if they've modelled that internally?
Vexual: satoshi designed it that gox might imrove the philosophy
mircea_popescu: i nthe history of mankind.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin has terrible overhead and it is without a doubt the klunkiest, most ineffectual way to transmit payments ever devised
mircea_popescu: "the valuable aspects of icecream : warmth"
greenspan_fan: (for some values of the above)
mircea_popescu: but it doesn't even have them.
mircea_popescu: not only those aren't the valuable aspects of bitcoin
jurov: "subversion of the valuable aspects of bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: "life is on the wire. everything else's just waiting."
greenspan_fan: just that my preference would be to avoid the struggle
mircea_popescu: jurov here's the funny thing on top of it : if the us actually DID try to build something, like a superadvanced asic design ? we'd get it for free in the next leak bundle.
mircea_popescu: thigns have changed. we have a real republic and a real bitcoin now, which leaves the us back among its peers.
jurov: greenspan_fan: anyway, what you suggest is *not* about building something, but the exact opposite
mircea_popescu: anyway : back then the most serene republica veneta was the us. much in the sense of how back then the bitcoin of the world was the usd.
mircea_popescu: still with the manhattan project ?
greenspan_fan: thousands of supremely bright, capable people, managed by the army, built an atomic bomb in like three years
greenspan_fan: as a (possibly out of date) counter example, I could point to the manhattan project
mircea_popescu: and your shitty empire trying to infiltrate it will pay through the teeth for no results at all.
greenspan_fan: a few posters of rosie the solderer and voila, you've got your asics
greenspan_fan: if you model leaks as a poisson process, they're actually pretty air-tight
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan if the nsa, intel, whomever actually could hire more people
greenspan_fan: the nsa, intel, whomever
mircea_popescu: you're desperate to spend it, and the people you need to do things aren't desperate to get it.
mircea_popescu: their bitcoin being, of course, dollars, we couldn't, of course, care less.
mircea_popescu: they don't need your billion.
mircea_popescu: ok so. they spent a trillion "Dollars", but those trillion dollars could not have bought a trillion one dollar ringdings
greenspan_fan: for far less than a billion I could commission enough asics to make the network mine, for all intents and purposes
greenspan_fan: the bailout was like a trillion dollars
greenspan_fan: mircea_popescu I think we're a year or two out before the hash rate reaches escape velocity
mircea_popescu: not that you couldn't have run, achilles, but that you neglected the turtle.
mircea_popescu: that is the problem.
greenspan_fan: then I'd move on to technical subversion, which might mean dedicating supercomputers to attack the blockchain, or just ddos/hack any of the major players
mircea_popescu: you read the discussion re atc with asciilifeform ?
greenspan_fan: if I had the resources of the us govt, and I wanted to wreck bitcoin at all costs, I'd start w/ outlawing its use for payment, and impose penalties for anyone in my jurisdiction who has a bitcoin wallet
greenspan_fan: I think we're mainly in disagreement w/r/t whether or not they'd be able to meaningfully intervene
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan but a) they're not inviting him anywhere, because wherever they are so is he already
mircea_popescu: of course children expect to be the kings of creation. so what of it ?
greenspan_fan: so I wish these people would just get with the program and not invite the apparatchiks (I think that's also the model of his desk? from ikea, maybe?) to mess things up
greenspan_fan: but in the short term you can delay it, for sure
greenspan_fan: bitcoin's an idea, and to quote abraham lincoln once again, "there's nothing that can stop an idea whose time has come"
mircea_popescu: now, on these reasonable expectations you posit that the government can somehow take the shine out of metal for their benefit ?
mircea_popescu: they also do expect it to continue making their lives possible, as it has in the past.
mircea_popescu: so now... the people whose livelihood depends on government do see it as on their side. it is.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c here's the actual data : since jan 1st mpoe bot has quoted 7192 times, for a total book exposure of 62930 minutes, = ~43.7 days (out of 51.4) so like 85%. of these in turn 7 (so like 90%) have been since the 14th, ie since the signal divergence.
greenspan_fan: I don't even really know how the us economy functions, but it does, after a fashion
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan your axiomatic system is incomplete. the redditards live off the govt dole. since the govt can not create value out of thin air, you're missing an a4
jurov: subversion of the valuable aspects of bitcoin << what should i imagine here?
chetty_: reddit twerps count as popular demand? now I know I fell down the rabbit hole
greenspan_fan: P2 (P1, A1): There's a good chance of government regulation/interference occuring, which, depending on the effort involved, could lead to subversion of the valuable aspects of bitcoin
greenspan_fan: P1 (A2, A3): The support on reddit indicates there's some popular demand for government regulation of bitcoin
greenspan_fan: doing so, since I went to the trouble of using colons and everything
mircea_popescu: but write out the whole list it/ll be helpful
greenspan_fan: A3: The folks on reddit constitute a reasonable sample of the voting public, from which "popular will" is derived
greenspan_fan: A2: the government responds to popular will, to some degree
greenspan_fan: A1: The government has, at varying levels of cost, options to subvert/ruin the valuable aspects of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: they aren't ?!
greenspan_fan: he (and his suspiciously low desk) aren't on your side. They might not be against you, but it's still not a great idea to do your best to hand over control to the first guy with a title and incipient back problems who comes along
greenspan_fan: it's a marginal risk w/r/t bitcoin, but jeez, one wishes everyone could just get w/ the program w/o all these false steps
greenspan_fan: if there's a big enough push, the government can/will step in, regulate everything they can regulate and exterminate everything else
mircea_popescu: then what do you want from her.
mircea_popescu: not missing the point is not something you can do on your own ?
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan so then act that way don't expect that way :D
mircea_popescu: why'd you expect her not to miss the point ?
mircea_popescu: obviously it misses the point.
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dilly%20Bag | Dec 15, 2010 ... Dilly Bag. Apparel such as a satchel or handbag carried by escorts and strippers that are used to contain a variety of accessories used in their ...
greenspan_fan: (before the analogies diverge too much) the problem is is that it completely misses the point about how there's now a fundamentally different way of acquiring food
greenspan_fan: yes, you can store cheeseburgers in the same bag, but you could also just use the drivethru
benkay: eventually the bag bursts
greenspan_fan: but it's this unquestioning faith that the best policy is to always shoehorn everything into whatever the prevailing paradigm was
mircea_popescu: they'd also made decent harem girls.
benkay: hands off the servers i promise
mircea_popescu: jurov you going to go for a "what they think they see is not what is there thus no recognition could have taken place" ?
jurov: they will try to ban it? tax it? how?
mircea_popescu: today what shocks me about the soviet aparatchicks is how horribly uncomfortable their stuff is.
mircea_popescu: one thing that always shocked me about soviet aparatchicks was how horribly bad their suits were.
greenspan_fan: and sometimes, the people it forces to stay indoors invent calculus
mircea_popescu: plagues run to completion. they know.
greenspan_fan: if you tell all the churchgoers to stay indoors it might make a difference
mircea_popescu: make to the plague itself ?
mircea_popescu: take the great plague. what difference does the church pronouncement against a great plague, or for it, or about it
greenspan_fan: more time to perfect the algorithm vs. faster adoption?
benkay: this waffling about the legality of bitcoin by places thailand etc are just going to delay its recognition as a thing by the big institutions
greenspan_fan: it's more something that you read about for the ideas, rather than because it's a complete and fleshed out theory
benkay: mircea_popescu: what did you think of the Jaynes book?
greenspan_fan: have you read Jaynes' "The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind"? it's kinda on point in that regard
greenspan_fan: I can't even find a keyboard that has the greek alphabet in it
mircea_popescu: benkay if you care of some inkiling of why greek is the mother of them all, maybe http://trilema.com/2009/etimologia-democratiei/
benkay: sure and all programming languages are turing equivalent so why bother
benkay: what's your ranking of them by power of expression?
greenspan_fan: english, lisp, then latin in my case
mircea_popescu: in the sense that at the time french didn't exist latin had been used continuously by millions for millenia
mircea_popescu: benkay no. "it will take more than they can carry to teach them what we mean by all the words"
benkay: they'll go crazy!
mircea_popescu: the original argument against moving away from latin service in church. "what and lose all that abstraction power ?!?!"
benkay: some optimization point on the curve, etc
benkay: there being a relationship between abstraction power of words and the number of maintained in brain on mental horsepower.
greenspan_fan: why would you need so many words? because these are the features that you use to interpret your environment, and sometimes survival means knowing light, wet snow from permafrost
mircea_popescu: that's why the scapegoat is NOT a "horrible crime" in a 1700s culture, but quite fucking required, sane and reasonable.
greenspan_fan: what is cool is that there's all these (possibly apocryphal) stories about how, say, the inuit have 47 different words for snow
mircea_popescu: all flow from trying to keep the machine as sharp as possible.
greenspan_fan: additionally, people reinforce their belief on correct predictions and the people who are bad at thinking in terms of a-->b tend to starve vs. write almanacks
benkay: which is that most people have just totally fucked substrates for running these operations
greenspan_fan: hence abstractly; then you can form causal relationships between your observations
mircea_popescu: a number of them.
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan that's the beauty of natural language vs math.
mircea_popescu: but it IS a better fit than the modern climate science.
mircea_popescu: it's not either very good or very fixable (or actionable, scientifically)
mircea_popescu: and that something is the farmer's almanac.
mircea_popescu: eventually they compute something
mircea_popescu: so a bunch of derps cca 1700 who are desperately aware of farming, cause their life depends on it
mircea_popescu: a ok then. well that'd be overfitting for our needs.
greenspan_fan: additionally, all the fancy numerical methods we use are older than the farmer's almanac, or close to
benkay: i operate from the basis that we're just chemical machines.
mircea_popescu: you perhaps imagine mankind hasn't been using computers before the numeric machines. this would be false.
mircea_popescu: i think you underestimate the majorly powerful computer natural language is.
mircea_popescu: rather than end up with some crazy.
benkay: okay out of curiosity, on what bases were the authors of this almanac predicting?
mircea_popescu: not knowing you can do complex poly fitting means you'll just draw a line through the datapoints
mircea_popescu: benkay ok so then.
greenspan_fan: well, the book looks at far less data, and perhaps those parameters are better selected
mircea_popescu: you familiar with the concept of overfitting ?
mircea_popescu: benkay the book is better, strictly because it doesn't have the tools to overfit with.
benkay: i don't really expect accuracy on predictions of the behavior of a really complex multidimensional set of oscillators and dampers (see: planetary processes of weather etc) with totally unknown coupling from a set of modelers whose heads gotta be up they asses much less a book from a ways back
mircea_popescu: it'll drain somewhere. you don't really want to buy the riverbed, i guess, but if you disperse your ownership you gotta average out ok.
mircea_popescu: obviously some places will be better and others worse, but we're discussing the birdseye view here
mircea_popescu: im not a geologist employed by a venture fund trying to buy siberian lands, so what do i care about the water table et all.
Vexual: china is buying our arable land like theres no tommorrow
benkay: gotta drain the tundra, greenspan_fan.
benkay: eh not terribly worried about the downside. i know it's pretty bad.
greenspan_fan: I'd take it more seriously if all the people involved were buying up russian and canadian farmland
greenspan_fan: if climate change worries you, looking at the reports they don't really publicize that some places stand to benefit
benkay: i'm going to go ahead and guess they're both kinda just stochastically wrong
mircea_popescu: This exceptionally cold and snowy winter has shown that government climate scientists were dead wrong when it came to predicting just how cold this winter would be, while the 197-year old Farmers Almanac predicted this winter would be bitterly cold.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Congratulations on defending the slander of your soul from the indignity of being allowed on Bitcointalk
Vexual: derpage be in the feed
mircea_popescu: check out the derpage seriously.
kakobrekla: anyone with half a brain is not there.
mircea_popescu: greenspan_fan nope, you can't "analyze" the blockchain,
greenspan_fan: like I mean, once you have a certain amount of information about the users inferences between two addresses becomes much more accurate
kakobrekla: ok so this is the new ban model
kakobrekla: You have been banned by a forum moderator. You may appeal here: banappeals-w6pquw43@theymos.e4ward.com .
greenspan_fan: idk if it's completely fungible; you can analyze the blockchain, right? and idk if there's a mixer that you can trust.
mircea_popescu: required reading, as they say.
Vexual: does dhl fly there?
Vexual: can we get these guys on chan?
Vexual: did they move to shibuya?
decimation: just so you can watch the trainwreck?
Vexual: its all good in the neighbourhood mano
decimation: I sold my house and gave the proceeds to Karapales why oh why
Vexual: unless you're affiliated with gox these dyas? :)
decimation: the irony of this whole affair is that while various us states are contemplating idiotic bitcoin regulation, actual bitcoin villians are scamming funds from us citizens
Vexual: me neither, id send an email
KRS-One: i just joined the chan where is talking #mtgox-chat
MisterE: I doubt even the people in Gox know wtf is going on let alone outsiders
Duffer1: i'm pretty sure the hooks are period correct
Vexual: put aleanor gibbens on the deck and we'll talk coin
Vexual: abaft the ratlines
gribble: The operation succeeded.
Duffer1: ;;later tell thestringpuller must be java problem http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=d767b59 http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=57922df http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=3f29bfd http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=d41c734
Vexual: are the spars painted plastic?
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 the grandeur of javascript.