mjr_: regardless of whether it was issued by a govt, mined on a blockchain, or came out of my ass
KRS-One: cerelenius: there is over $11 million loaned out on long positions..they're going to get squeezed out
cerelenius: tripple bottom off the late december lows
mjr_: in other words
cerelenius: the bottom was in
mjr_: the dollar is worthless
mjr_: no change to the dollars value?
cerelenius: someone else will need them
mjr_: they won't accept dollars for oil
mjr_: ok, say everyone in the world does not want dollars for oil
cerelenius: that can tank the dollar market
cerelenius: the larger size you do
cerelenius: mjr the price starts collapsing
mjr_: same as the dollar yes
mjr_: but sure, there i could go to evr
cerelenius: you never have to touch the euro to get rid of dollars
mjr_: i can walk down the street and buy products for bitocin
cerelenius: why are you referencing the euro
cerelenius: mjr you can walk down the street and sell your dollars for products
mjr_: are they "saleablae"
mjr_: so if you hold euros in the us
cerelenius: you can get rid of dollars at any time of the day
cerelenius: and the saleability decreases as you keep moving
cerelenius: bitcoin you move the price with a tiny lot
mjr_: so you DO move the price
mjr_: so maybe you just don't get these fundamental points
cerelenius: the problem with bitcoin is saleability
mjr_: which is why i use them
cerelenius: paper dollars will be the only thing that have value under that scenario
cerelenius: im sure your bitcoins will save you then
cerelenius: mjr: these types of collapses have been occuring every since capitalism was introduced, just the scale of them has been getting progressively wrose
mjr_: we just find other tokens
cerelenius: KRS-One: i dont think we take out the late december lows
mjr_: and give them that many if it is important
mjr_: i could care less what the creator said or wants to do
cerelenius: gold was what paid debts off in the past
mjr_: and you obviously aren't smart enough to be a part of the convo
mjr_: i'll keep living in the real world
mjr_: you have fun with your theories
cerelenius: he knows the game
cerelenius: the smartest guy in here is the one with the largest stage that inflates in value when all the dumbasses do work
mjr_: i want either A) a certain amount of bitocoin, or B) a certain number of dollars
MisterE: I think we have seen the bottom today boys
cerelenius: they have closer to 0.5%
cerelenius: misterE; LOL not a single bank in the US or europe has 10% currency reserves
MisterE: yea there is
cerelenius: there havent been for 30 years
cerelenius: there are no reserve requirements
mjr_: you said they CAN'T and DON'T
mjr_: they CAN and DO forgive debts
Vexual: ill have the beef
mjr_: there are accounting rules for doing exactly that
cerelenius: no they cant.
cerelenius: and that caused the system to be insolvent
mjr_: so they CAN forgive it
cerelenius: in the united states about 2.5% of mortgage holders defaulted
MisterE: they get tax credit
MisterE: they do
mjr_: yes they can
mjr_: and they do
cerelenius: no they cant
mjr_: they can
cerelenius: theyd be insolvent
Vexual: i al comes out in the wash
MisterE: like the S&Ls
MisterE: you can blow up bubbles in the mean time
cerelenius: thats why they have value
cerelenius: meaning there is a shortage of dollars
MisterE: BTC is different because the community decides on value without government influence
cerelenius: there always is
mjr_: there is no shortage of dollars
cerelenius: debt is denominated in dollars so you need them
cerelenius: its becuase of debt. theres always a shortage of dollars
cerelenius: its not becuase the government says so lol.
MisterE: mjr_: you don't think the current syetm is sustainable do you?
cerelenius: when credit is first created its inflationary for the rest of its life its deflationary
mjr_: the creation method is irrelevant
cerelenius: the end game is hyper deflation on a scale not scene in 500 years
MisterE: I'm just running back and forth in The Enterprise
mjr_: in other words, 100 can circulate to pay 100,000 worth of needs
mjr_: but debts have the interesting factor of time
cerelenius: look at that 08 dip and it nearly blew out the entire system
MisterE: most people are mortgaged to 10x their 10 year net worth
cerelenius: or else the system implodes
mjr_: there is 100 dollars total
mjr_: here is the most trivial example
mjr_: no they don't
cerelenius: because we dont have money in the traditional sense
cerelenius: thats why the fed needs QE
cerelenius: mjr i already told you look at the fed balance sheet its painfully obvious
MisterE: are you saying the sum total of assets denominated in USD is less than the sum total of USD denominated debt?
cerelenius: like if you want 100bil of printed dollars you have to post 100bil of tier 1 capital assets to the fed
cerelenius: and they have to post an asset to back it
mjr_: bought by the fed
cerelenius: mjr the physical dollars are backed by fed assets(debt)
mjr_: but there are dollars not created via debt
MisterE: the discount window is all 0s and 1s
mjr_: they pay all costs to manufacture or mint
cerelenius: they do not print blindly lol
mjr_: they def do
MisterE: they dont
cerelenius: when the federal reserve orders dollars in physical format
MisterE: where you think the money for QE is coming from?
cerelenius: yes theres 2 ways to create dollars
cerelenius: theres very little federal reserve notes
cerelenius: the fed doesnt order much federal reserve notes
mjr_: the fed pays for it
cerelenius: mistere: before the USD collapses youll have hyperdeflation
MisterE: poor cerelenius and the rest of the sheep who still have faitin in the financial house of cards
cerelenius: the fed flooded the system with credit but there were no takers for it, hence the huge reserve balances banks now hold
MisterE: so I can get all the BTC for myself!
mjr_: the treasury does
cerelenius: the private sector stopped borrowing in 2007
mjr_: but they don't create it
MisterE: now tell me where the bottom is :)
mjr_: well its true the fed said it
mjr_: i don't care what they write on paper
mjr_: you trade them
mjr_: you don't redeem them
mjr_: but in the real world, in your real life
cerelenius: everytime new FRNs are to be printed, there has to be a posted asset
cerelenius: its on the fed site
mjr_: and are not made by the fed
mjr_: there is no rule anywhere that says it does
mjr_: that entry in the book is an asset
cerelenius: where did the 5 come from?
cerelenius: yes they are
cerelenius: for the federal reserve
mjr_: no they are not
mjr_: in the human made scheme that conforms to GAAP
mjr_: or rather...i should say that in our accounting system, a receivable is listed as an asset
MisterE: and tell us why they no longer publish M3?
mjr_: that is the key
cerelenius: graph what its on the fed website
MisterE: they print $ by adding zeros to a number on a computer
cerelenius: they do not print unbacked
mjr_: are you saying it is physically impossible to print a dollar bill without the fed?
cerelenius: no there wouldnt be.
mjr_: yes there would be
MisterE: are we at the bottom yet?
mjr_: i am trying to talk about the BASIC definitions
cerelenius: paper dollars are liability of the fed
mjr_: yes i know all this, and it doesn't change the fundamental everyday reality
cerelenius: someone constantly needs them to repay a debt
cerelenius: thats why there is always a BID for dollars
Vexual: you aint the fed bro
cerelenius: thats what gives them value
cerelenius: go and look at the fed balance sheet
mjr_: since the fundamental core concept of a debt is that it can be "redeemed"
mjr_: the fed owes us nothing
mjr_: if you cannot trade it in for a fixed amount of something else...there is no difference to you
mjr_: whatever we have done in the last 40 years doesn't fundamentally change the meaning of the word money
cerelenius: its impossible to repay debts under the current system because the dollar itself comes into existence through borrowing
mjr_: then its not a debt
mjr_: so i have a debt that means you have to pay me other dollars
cerelenius: the fed collateral is US gov bonds
mjr_: that is like saying "a mortgage is backed by a house, but you cannot ever take the house'
mjr_: what is their collateral?
mjr_: in other words i can REDEEM it
cerelenius: every single paper USD in existence is backed by assets the fed holds
cerelenius: mjr: of course it does pull up the fed balance sheet
cerelenius: no they dont
mjr_: no they are not
mjr_: no they are not
cerelenius: they are a credit instrument
mjr_: in the first case, you have an entity willing to always exchange at a fixed ratio
mjr_: there is a difference
davout: cerelenius: you're working on the assumption that money is debt, come back next year
cerelenius: debt is the basis of money
mjr_: that is the basis of money
cerelenius: if you lend me btc at interest, the crop price will go down
greenspan_fan: your line of reasoning is based off of axioms that other people don't agree with
mjr_: and you can trade those assets for others
cerelenius: mjr_: money can be anything that extinguishes debt. and since only producers can pay off debt, they are the only ones who can issue money
mjr_: some people get to (shocking) drive on roads they never paid for
mjr_: well...that all depends, you are describing the "free rider" problem
greenspan_fan: if bitcoin or its like ends up becoming the main currency, or at least a sufficiently important one
cerelenius: an early adopter or large coin holder just has to sit and do nothing, as everyone else "adds to the ecosystem" their coins swell in value with next to no risk, and they didnt even have to hire labor lol
cerelenius: as their coins swell in value
cerelenius: apocalyptic: bitcoin as a currency resembles a sophisticated wealth transfer scheme, those who have more of it benefit from the work of everyone else
Apocalyptic: how does that contradict the fact you are ?
cerelenius: bitcoins grand accomplishment is the blockchain
Apocalyptic: businesses will find finances it they are worthy of it
cerelenius: you could run a bills of exchange system if they ever figure out how to make it decentralized
greenspan_fan: so okay, by definition, then, usury is bad
cerelenius: the problem with usury is your economy never grows fast enough to keep up with the debt + interest
greenspan_fan: and yet, I am not convinced that charging interest is bad. If you want me to loan you something, then you should compensate for my not having it while you use it.
cerelenius: fugger were the most famous
cerelenius: not just them
greenspan_fan: but clearly it was the usurious jews
cerelenius: venice went from richest region in the world to flat broke
greenspan_fan: in the midst of dynastic struggle, wars, and massive religious upheaval
cerelenius: greenspan_fan: you are clueless. renaissance was the birth of capitalism and large scale usury in the west, it ended up destroying all the participating city states
Vexual: yeah people did good shit, and other people went. whoa here have some money
cerelenius: in bitcoin large holders have to do nothing, becuase as the armies of fanatics spread the gospel and do all the work, the largest holders get all the purchasing power transfered to them
cerelenius: hence all the arts
cerelenius: renaissance was a bread and circus to cover the economic looting of that time