mjr_: no one can be stupid enough to actually leave your server on and then put that into the production source code
mjr_: or whatever the number is
mjr_: i mean, i never thought their shortfall would be a 3/4 of a billion bitcoins though
mjr_: since there is a ton of unexploited value
Apocalyptic: they declined your offer ?
mjr_: we were reaching out to them, with some people who i won't name
Apocalyptic: mjr_, apparently there is an acquisition going on now...
mjr_: couple interesting theories
mjr_: so about the whole gox thing
mjr_: and the options
mjr_: um...we know the prices
mjr_: why, the whole problem would just go away
cerelenius: dignork: thats my point, you cant even verify if the losses are legit.
Duffer1: you could just ask him to sign from the cold wallet
mjr_: yeah, you were the one who asked if he actually paid out
cerelenius: i mean thats what its there for
cerelenius: thats the irony of mpex, huge btc advocate, zero useage of the blockchain to verify any of his claims
mjr_: nah, he didn't do it, and they just accepted it quietly
mjr_: so typically mpex bot will probaby not try go either direction, but rather move the price so it maintains a baance
jurov: http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-april-2013-statement/ cerelenius, you can check the addresses there
mjr_: because the vast majority offset
mjr_: that is the goal though
cerelenius: infact as he ever used the blockchain to provide evidence of anything? or is it all self issued statements
mjr_: but if you sell options on both sides of the train?
mjr_: do you remember how much the losses were last april?
mjr_: while i look for the ignore command
cerelenius: dignork: if mpex sold a put option big enough even a decline like today would clean them out
mjr_: i just can't deal with the stupidity any longer
cerelenius: dignork: well no he never will hes smarter then that, hell just cancel trades
cerelenius: well they are implying a 9-10% chance of recovery
mjr_: they are just serving blank page
cerelenius: everyone smart knows it doesnt matter who "adopts" bitpay and coinbase, it means zero for the price
mjr_: which means that is just the price of bitcoins vs dollars
cerelenius: for their item
cerelenius: or they need a high btc price
cerelenius: all their profit margin vanishes
cerelenius: they lose money lol
Namworld: Going on and on and on about the "MtGox PDF"
mjr_: the option is expensive
mjr_: they don't want to?
mjr_: you don't even know the difference between insurance and an option
cerelenius: they will tell you to fuck off.
cerelenius: if you paid them in btc
mjr_: you miss the key word
mjr_: they give you an option
mjr_: no they aren't
mjr_: they use futures
dignork: cerelenius hence the derivative market, to hedge this
mjr_: then hedge dollars
cerelenius: and just instantly sell them
cerelenius: they are connected to major exchanges
mjr_: then hedge bitcoin
mjr_: thats the pointt
mjr_: and the exchange rate changed i could "take a loss"
cerelenius: dignork: the currency doesnt change 50% in a day
cerelenius: dignork: i agree the payment network(blockchain) is excellent
cerelenius: what they send you
cerelenius: go ask for a refund se ewhat they say
cerelenius: if the exchange rate changed you are taking a loss
cerelenius: they will give you a dollar one
mjr_: the restaurant owner is just going to use his dollars to pay his accountant
cerelenius: its the guys settling in it
mjr_: i can "map" the number of bitcoins onto any number of things
mjr_: it would be irrelevant to the number of things
mjr_: if there was one bitcoin
mjr_: there is STILL things around me
mjr_: that is the point
cerelenius: certain things on the internet have to use bitcoin becuase of necessity
cerelenius: there has to be a willing BID
cerelenius: they are never exposed to bitcoin
cerelenius: they are like a one way exchange
cerelenius: bitpay doesnt accept shit they just broker a trade
mjr_: meaning they are trading bitcoin for soething
mjr_: they will ACCEPT bitcoin
mjr_: BITPAY says they want bitcoin
cerelenius: its just another cashout option
mjr_: if half the world chose to use bitcoin
mjr_: the relative demand will basically set the bid ask spread (since bitcoins supply grows at a fixed rate)
cerelenius: mjr it will always be the situation
mjr_: in other words, idiotic
mjr_: that is the situoation right now
mjr_: its like the rules of logic don't apply to you
cerelenius: at the expense of everyone else
mjr_: its supposed to represent a certain portion of actual things in the real world which i may want
mjr_: so stick to the basicsa
cerelenius: whats with the elementary school examples
mjr_: there is a ratio of x to y
cerelenius: the bitcoin market would implode
mjr_: which would push the price up to wher ebitcoin is
jurov: no problem there :)
cerelenius: 1% of bitcoins cannot be spent without the market going to zero
mjr_: here is the basis of money
cerelenius: everyone who gained in bitcoin there has to be a equal loser
cerelenius: mjr: money is sterile, people think if they put money in a bank vault it will have children
cerelenius: mjr: no i dont think that, the system does hence its FLAW
cerelenius: as bad as the US is
cerelenius: its difficult to take balances in america because america tends to have stronger rule of law then most of europe
jurov: they can't take bank accounts balances like in eu
mjr_: that is what you don't get...if i took away 90% of the wealth of the entire world...the system wouldn't have changed at all
jurov: so no problem there
cerelenius: dignork: no they can be defaulted on
mjr_: are you saying that no one will be able to then buy berak?
dignork: ok, so they don't have to be repid, right?
cerelenius: the only thing that will hold up will be paper USDs
cerelenius: one day people are going to wake up and see their bank accounts reduced by 95%
mjr_: make something of value, and the rest doesn't matter
cerelenius: dignork: during debt collapse, USDs get deleted and the left over ones swell in value
mjr_: all the buillshit that goes on, is irrelevant
cerelenius: you would have a total implosion of the worldwide banking system
cerelenius: the US government cannot go bankrupt
mjr_: where the money (shocker) NEVER gets paid back
mjr_: but there is this thing called bankruptcy
mjr_: no they don't
cerelenius: because they have to be repaid with interest
cerelenius: but DEFLATIONARy for rest of their life
cerelenius: they are inflationary when created
jurov: so there 5 trillions are as good as non existing
cerelenius: the US is nowhere near that
cerelenius: hence why they bought bonds
mjr_: they can lend without collateral
mjr_: like if i print more, but still have the same basket of goods, at a certain point, i can buy more
mjr_: the value asymptotically approaches 0
jurov: the banks that got it returned it to fed or bought back bonds
jurov: cerelenius the money was not actually printed
cerelenius: to produce the paper to print on in time
mjr_: there are 3 apples
cerelenius: under the credit money system it cant
mjr_: so it could still inflate further
mjr_: ok then
mjr_: its like the CPI has never moved
cerelenius: despite all the fiat printing
cerelenius: why is gold/oil all below their highs
cerelenius: and the proof is bernanke doing it
mjr_: you seem to think they obey some law
cerelenius: they are both BAD monetary systems
cerelenius: jurov: im not argueing the fiat system being better
mjr_: to the extent i want dollars, i will allow people to pay me in dollars
cerelenius: bitcoin is not the same
cerelenius: dollar demand is always higher then supply
mjr_: i am not seeing the difference
cerelenius: btc will make a handful rich and everyone else will wake up one day realizing they benefited NOTHING from it
mjr_: or i guess to put it in simple terms "to the extent to which someone wants a currency, based on how much of it there is, that will define its value"
Vexual: you're not trolling, i wrote the book. you have personality disorder
mjr_: there is no fundamental difference so far to bitcoin, you seem to think that gox is part of bitcoin or something
mjr_: so if only a few people use bitcoin to transact their business, it'll be the same as the romanian lei
mjr_: so they haven't adopted it
mjr_: its accepted in the US
Vexual: man in the image of god
cerelenius: its related to btc because as people WORK hard to build the ecosystem and create purchasing power, it gets siphoned off by the large holders
dignork: cerelenius this will be the case anyhow, nature laws...
cerelenius: both are different sides of the same coin
cerelenius: dignork: the same way bitcoin will because of what i outlined earlier in the chat. a tiny tiny % of holders will be filthy rich while everyone else is filthy poor
cerelenius: the chinese yuan is defacto backed by dollars
Vexual: things change cere, the world keeps turning
cerelenius: well yes the dollar is a failure its a defaulted on promise to pay gold
mjr_: the dollar has failed
mjr_: they will still be settling debts
cerelenius: it wont fail in the sense of going to zero
mjr_: and you come up with the same thing
mjr_: just take everything you say, change the word bitcoin to dollar
mjr_: the world isn't running out of fiat
cerelenius: the world is not running out of crypto
cerelenius: the market cap will fluctuate
mjr_: since the whole point is moving past fiat
mjr_: and they only settle using dollars "out of necessity"
cerelenius: they do it out of necessity
mjr_: i will sell my products for the amount of currency i want
mjr_: that is the problem
cerelenius: dignork: merchants are adopting bitpay/coinbase to tap into the btc liquidity and the free publicity they get, nobody is settling in btc outright
cerelenius: mircea is part of the fraud category lol
chetty: I settle with btc, and I am not a criminal either
cerelenius: the problem with adopting bitpay or coinbase
mjr_: don't bother
KRS-One: there is also no control over this =/
cerelenius: krs-one: yea so they have some protection in place
cerelenius: dignork: im talking about nobody settles for anything other then fiat at the moment in btc, OTHER then those groups i outlined
mjr_: you do know they don't use dollars everywhere
Vexual: get off the couch cerel
mjr_: there is this thing called "international trade"
KRS-One: cerelenius: according to btc.sx faq: For each position opened, btc.sx will execute an open market order at over x10 the value of your deposit.
mjr_: your argument for the dollar was its "necessity"
cerelenius: not because they want to lol
mjr_: but rather immature markets for ANYTHING
mjr_: the issues you bring up have nothing to do with bitcoin
mjr_: if it can, then it could keep doing so...
mjr_: since there must be one
cerelenius: yea and in bitcoin they dont.
mjr_: or facebook, and now, they are MORE liquid
mjr_: you don't understand the diference between today's bitcoin and the inherent properties of bitcoin
mjr_: and get the product i wanted
mjr_: i pay with the currency i chose
mjr_: i could give two shits what happens between me paying bitcoin and getting the product i want
cerelenius: and then paying with usd
cerelenius: they settle in DOLLARS
Vexual: ah theres only one fuck this mad
mjr_: which tree do they meet up at?
mjr_: but you just said that you were talking about the way it is now
cerelenius: bitcoin is too illiquid to function as anything other then a speculative tool, in terms of money in only functions as such in cybercrime for example because there are NO alternatives.
mjr_: there is no world in which bitcoin is not illiquid
cerelenius: lol 99% of the otc market is junk
cerelenius: yea its the junk market.
mjr_: have you heard of this thing called the pink sheets
cerelenius: listen pal, every credit instrument in bitcoin will bust out sooner then later
Vexual: weird mother fucker
mjr_: because you keep using the word HAS TO and CAN and CANNOT and IMPOSSIBLE
mjr_: you seem to use the word can and can't in strange ways
mjr_: sure they would
cerelenius: theyd go bankrupt
mjr_: i am betting they have some sort of autoliquidation
cerelenius: what happens when your underwater then?
mjr_: the variance is too high
mjr_: me neither