asciilifeform: the proper 'eizo' can be had used/surplus for $1k or so.
pLambert: how do I get the div payments?
mircea_popescu: pLambert no, the way this is done is that dividends and contracts list the share count.
asciilifeform: it plugs into jack in the back
asciilifeform: they use, afaik, 'sharp' matrices.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu: not a big deal if you can't also calibrate the client's monitor
ThickAsThieves: now i use the cheapo versions
asciilifeform: notice apple not in the list.
mircea_popescu: these led things, not yet.
ThickAsThieves: but once i saw the large Apple monitors
asciilifeform: there exists lcd that is acceptable substitute for a trinitron. $2K+.
nubbins`: pantone or nothin' baby, don't trust the screen
nubbins`: if CBS has a problem w/ shortages, maybe they should stop banning queers from donating blood
nubbins`: anyway these "paid donation clinics" weren't even operated by canadian blood services, nor were they collecting for transfusions
mircea_popescu: and a good crt is way better than the best lcd/lft we you'll ever find.
mircea_popescu: i don't need it! i like it! there's a difference!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform or live in a country where they fix shit.
asciilifeform: if you love crts, learn to fix them. it isn't optional
mircea_popescu: most people just leave the stuff outside on set dates for the dump workers to collect it (they get the respective cents themselkves, sort of like a tip)
mircea_popescu: yeah, they mostly reuse them. as long as you give it up clean/sorted (ie, not covered in rotten meatjuices or w/e common garbage) they usually give you a few cents/kg
asciilifeform: one of these.
nubbins`: but they mostly turn a blind eye
nubbins`: you have to pay $50 to leave a crt at the dump here
asciilifeform: (spun drives from golden age is another matter. i have a 1985 seagate that still runs.)
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic ayup. the magic that you know and love as my endless spam is hatched on electron excitated phosphorus coatings.
asciilifeform: i refuse to run spun drives other than in a r5 harness of 4+
mircea_popescu: i may be the only buyer left for spun drives and crt monitors in a 100 mile radius
mircea_popescu: but the drive just clicked
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they don't sell 'raid5' boards where you live?
nubbins`: quite infrequently after i pass the 400-page mark
nubbins`: pascale agreed to do a 3-hour screenprinting class down at the textiles school today
nubbins`: they might get a vote or two every federal election
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i think that one is of the same variety as cpusa
nubbins`: canada has a communist party, can't say i know much about their operations
ThickAsThieves: i dont understand why they are dragging it out over so many installments
mircea_popescu: in romanian parlance of the time, the opposition (ie, what the us bipartisanly does) was called.... communism.
nubbins`: funny how it means the opposite some places now
mircea_popescu: nubbins` in the east liberal means you know, right of conservative.
mircea_popescu: then i quit it in 2008, at the time it was in power. it looks like it will make... about 3% next electoral cycle.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, for self-c0k stroking purposes : i was one in the "secret circle" of romanian national liberal party, which went from making 3% in an alliance to making its own government by the time i left romania.
nubbins`: lightbox is on there ;D
mircea_popescu: with perhaps the exception of chicago.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves you gotta appreciate, romanian politics 1990-2005 much more interesting than anything anyone's seen i nthe us.
BitChrista: mircea_popescu were you really? I feel like that would weather someone down fast
Duffer1: the whore olympics
mircea_popescu: the situation is roughly similar with "there's more to be made financing silicon valley cca 1960 than financing banking or energy sector stocks".
chetty: they will, politicians smell money
mircea_popescu: there's more to be made serving bitcoin interest than serving ws interest today, for the young aspiring politician
mircea_popescu: there's about a billion or so worth of bitcoins represented here, and likely more reachable because the logs make popular morning newspapers for many people
ThickAsThieves: an important thing to keep in mind looking at the list
mircea_popescu: BitChrista that's nice. anyway, fyi, this is the place where bitcoin finance is hatched, so, probably worth your time to lurk.
mircea_popescu: gotta love buffy, the bezzle slayer
mircea_popescu: In insurance, as elsewhere, the reaction of weak managements to weak operations is often weak accounting. (Its difficult for an empty sack to stand upright.)
mircea_popescu: they'll prolly hold it undisturbed to judgement day
mircea_popescu: and also branson, and a number of other people who have little to nothing to do with bitcoin ?
mircea_popescu: aren't the winklejesusii democrat ?
ThickAsThieves: cuz Erik has all the coins
chetty: BitChrista I doubt many bitcoiners are either party really
mircea_popescu: like an issues-group or how you call them ?
mircea_popescu: yeah the diff bets are a major part of bitbet, mostly because it's one of the few places where btc holders are well connected to the economy.
ThickAsThieves: but the reverse might be good
BitChrista: Even though we are non-partisan, I'm excited because we know which party has all the Bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: mp all the best bets are diff ones
BitChrista: There are many regulations for politicians already with just accepting cash donations, It's a little trickier with Bitcoin. I also work for a web marketing company that works with candidates so we know all the regulations and compliance. So we just have the upperhand in the fact that we know how to stay in legal boundaries.
ThickAsThieves: how does it differ from them accepting it directly or via coinbase/bitpay?
BitChrista: Soon they will be able to accept all cryptocurrencies. We will likely branch out to non-profits and social impact as well
nubbins`: the starter adapts pretty easily
nubbins`: some people feed 2x daily, others 1x
mircea_popescu: BitChrista you type in the lower bar thing to talk
nubbins`: that said, yeast is in the air all around us
nubbins`: the big no-no is feeding your starter with anything but plain white flour
mircea_popescu: new bugs fall in and contribute genetic material prolly all the time
mircea_popescu: tho... i don't suppose they actually are isolated you know ?
mircea_popescu: then if you actually sell it down the road, you have a history. if you scrap the thing, whatever. a website.
chetty: cause catching the yeast yourself is more fun!
mircea_popescu: nubbins` thought : whether you do this or not, do the following : make a website follow the generations.
nubbins`: it's the sort of thing that you could make yourself from scratch, but why do that when you can purchase an established starter that's already developed its own taste and characteristics?
nubbins`: the starter itself is just a wild yeast colony that lives in a home of flour and water
mircea_popescu: aristotle's politics just became second rate in the field of revolutionary. nakamoto's paper easily takes the top spot
nubbins`: ^ it's true, bitcoin chose the cheese sandwich for me
mircea_popescu: Neil the thing is, unless bitcoin gets to make the rules we're wasting our time here.
mircea_popescu: blackwhite none of those pieces of crud are arguments. they're just flaming ignorance being stubbornly presented by people who are too haughty to read trilema. all that shit's been debunked there cca 2012.
pLambert: doesn't have the same ring as I just got Goxxed, but it makes more sense linguistically
VanCleef: in the future people will be saying "man i just got stamped"
mircea_popescu: Neil i was curious what your estimated jtd would be, at the time of the 2nd tranche ipo of mpoe. ie, two years ago to the day.
mircea_popescu: MisterE: looks like Stamp is the new king <<< markets centralize.
VanCleef: i was watching this report on colorado w33d vendors who had 2 problems, 1. they couldn't get business bank accounts cause banks were scared 2. they were dealing with massif loads of cash and had to hire like ex mercenary types of p33ps to move the fiat for them.
mircea_popescu: cads i doubt the square of x and -x can count as different problems in this context.
ozbot: Whoever makes the MtGox story TV special, please get Randy from Trailer Park
ThickAsThieves: they are not nearly as flexible
nubbins`: what are they made from? soy?
ThickAsThieves: it took a long time to sort them, but it turns out there are some pretty good vegan cheeses being made
VanCleef: i dont know if you guys use cryptostocks but there's like 1 guy on there running about 5 scams atm, its shitty
mircea_popescu: pLambert i have a very low oppinion of their ceo is all.
pLambert: mircea_popescu: you seem to hate on NEOBEE much, you think they will fail?
mircea_popescu: as opposed to the accounting variety.
mircea_popescu: it has a lot of economic goodwill, of the actual varietyt
ThickAsThieves: “I hope bitcoin becomes a better way of doing it,” he said, but “the idea that it has intrinsic value is a joke.”
mircea_popescu: nubbins` most hard cheeses freeze just fine, tho the purists don't want to admit it.
nubbins`: idly wondering why the fuck nobody told me this before
VanCleef: i mean the most fun
mircea_popescu: the shit i do ain't crazy, it has its own internal logic.
VanCleef: yeh i think i'm the same atm, bitfunder really cursed me, cant seem to make any winning moves since then
ThickAsThieves: VanCleef, I am at a fork in the road
asciilifeform: yer supposed to let them nibble on your toes for a bit
asciilifeform: said to me, 'i went there before any serious maths exam.'
asciilifeform: fellow i know from india (former physicist) confirmed the famous rat temple
asciilifeform: x86 reminds me of certain old soviet apartments, with toilet in the kitchen behind a curtain.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform man no one talks about the rings anymore
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, with fake cache hits for the lulz.
asciilifeform: yes, letting enemy run code on the box where you crypto is dumb. news at 11.
ThickAsThieves: ah i somehow assumed they were talking about mining for some reason
Apocalyptic: and that applies to all these timing side channels attacks
asciilifeform: this almost calls for a memecat graphic or the like.
bounce: skipped the standard issue FUDwords artcle for the abstract of the paper. it reads like the ecdsa equivalent of the cache hit/miss sidechannel gpg key snatch. ie, don't run bitcoin transactions on shared or even virtual anything boxes. no running wallets on ec2, say.
ThickAsThieves: what was the source link again?
ThickAsThieves: the decimal doesnt matter
blackwhite: it doesn't really matter cause even if it has a point it's not really the point.
TomServo: Shareholder David Witt, who has a stake valued at about $8,650 based on yesterday’s closing price, proposed the measure, stating that Berkshire has “more money than it needs” and that the board should consider the investors who aren’t billionaires.
ThickAsThieves: <MisterE> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/03/scientist-devised-crypto-attack-could-one-day-steal-secret-bitcoin-keys/ >>>> is it just me or is this whole article moot in regards to Bitcoin, being that no one uses Intel to mine and even malware was made it would have to somehow run on the ASIC system of the chosen device?
mircea_popescu: proving something like x^2 > 2x is not sufficient, we then have to go individually and show that 4^2 > 8, 5^2 > 10 etc etc
mircea_popescu: because for people that were too fucking lazy and high on their own farts to pay attention in school,
mircea_popescu: nubbins` the mistaken notion that while socialism (ie, the salvation of the members of the group through recourse to the group) doesn't work, subsets of this (such as, the salvation of women by recourse to the group) do somehow magically work.
asciilifeform: so the officially permitted porn consists of watching the censor's faces as they view the forbidden
asciilifeform: in russian sf writer viktor pelevin's epic 'SNUFF', the descendants of the americans (living in a mostly broken-down antigrav ship over what remains of russia) continue to decay,
gribble: Kaishakunin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaishakunin>; The fine art of seppuku: <http://www.win.net/ratsnest/archive-articles21/fog0000000384.html>; Kaishakunin.com - IT-Sicherheitsberatung Magdeburg - Stefan ...: <http://www.kaishakunin.com/>
asciilifeform: what 'physicist' living today is fit even to be beheaded by noether.
mircea_popescu: im not the only one catching up on logs huh
asciilifeform: emmy noether was a titan. i suspect that we still haven't fully digested her output.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'six fucking months to break down the male blocks on killing, and even then it only works sorta 50-50' << i've yet to see this confirmed for homo sapiens vs. homo americanus circa 1940s
VanCleef: ohokey cool,like in the country you live or is it offshored?
nubbins`: Diablo-D3: they fail at html too
mircea_popescu: pretty much all depends on whether tomorrow is 1.x trillion or not.
ozbot: Foreigners Sell A Record Amount, Over $100 Billion, Of Treasurys Held By The Fed In Past Week | Zero
nubbins`: but, y'know, don't bother vaccinating your kids
nubbins`: read the log D;
Neil: Sure. I think some of MP's businesses are interesting. Just they're trading at an insane premium IMO, because of lack of credible alternatives. Make your own decision.
Neil: blackwhite: There's nothing wrong with just sitting on your coins. Just make sure they're safe.
blackwhite: so what are some of the models people use to make money with bit coins besides mining?
Neil: blackwhite: The world is your oyster. Whether your customer is an Iranian or a Korean. Who gives a fuck apart from those who benefit by dividing us.
Neil: And boy do I look forward to the day I can travel the world and spend bitcoin. I think it's only 2 years away.
Neil: My belief is that bitcoin will succeed for one simple reason, whose power almost eveyrone underestimates (apart from Satoshi): people will come to realise holding bitcoin is in their own best interest. And everything else will follow, in the future as it already has, from $0.01 to $500. Nothing has changed.
Neil: Just act in your own self interest and ignore the noise
Neil: It's Keynesian claptrap and the opposite of reality.
blackwhite: i am just saying thats an argument being put out there
Neil: blackwhite: I don't know where to start. Maybe start thinking for yourself and stop drinking the logical fallacies?
blackwhite: Reputable exchanges with large institutional holdings could help stem such panics by advertising a willingness to sell their Bitcoins to meet liquidity demand. Yet because Bitcoin reserves are finite, users may not find the promise credible. By contrast, central banks with the inexhaustible resources of the printing press face no such inconvenient constraints."
blackwhite: yeah but consider this argument for instance: "If Bitcoin matured into a complete currency, with large numbers of workers using it as their medium of account, then its inflexibility could bring economic havoc. Money-supply “shocks”, like the disappearance of Mt Gox, could set off a systemic collapse. Given a loss of faith in exchanges, users might withdraw their coins in a panic, leading to a dangerous decline in transaction volume. Such
Neil: blackwhite: First thing to understand is most the shit you read in the media isn't a "problem", it's just the guy writing the article's "problem"
Neil: It *would* mean everyone else's suddenly got worth a lot more, but the end? You don't understand.
Neil: "Yeah the reason why I ask is. If for some reason suddenly 10million bit coins go lost that basically would mean the end of the currency" uhh please explain that big underspecified jump in logic.
blackwhite: then what
blackwhite: Yeah the reason why I ask is. If for some reason suddenly 10million bit coins go lost that basically would mean the end of the currency, but couldn't that somehow be countered by splitting each bitcoin so we deal in satoshis instead? Asking because I can't wrap my head around that problem
Neil: blackwhite: One bitcoin is one bitcoin. To what extent one agrees to subdivide it is but a mere footnote. The default assumption amongst market participants, owing to history, is 100m "satoshis" are a bitcoin.
Neil: "Singing psychedelic praises to the depths of a China bowl"
Neil: It's like a mini-inflation shock. History shows they take about 2 months to feed into the price. June 2016 with the halving is gonna be epic.
Neil: The last 2 weeks are the first time in a long time at least 50% of the time I open blockchain.info it shows a block over 1hr old.
Neil: http://bitbet.us/bet/596/btc-difficulty-to-increase-by-less-than-10/ << Time for the difficulty bulls to get worried?
Neil: <mircea_popescu> Neil since you mentioned jtd, you ever read the original mpoe prospectus ? << I have, probably twice. What's the connection?
Neil: Damn these blocks getting scarce
dub: fuck you bitcoin, fuck you in the goat ass
gribble: The operation succeeded.
MisterE: looks like Stamp is the new king
MisterE: when their news was poop
MisterE: the start of this down trend
Mats_cd03: they mostly suck
Mats_cd03: the confirmation delay is something altcoins have experimented with
Mats_cd03: pay a higher tx fee then scrub
VanCleef: its just awkward when doing a face trade with someone and they ask if they can sleep over while waiting for it to confirm
cads: MP's conjecture is that it must trade off utility between Pow and the secondary function
cads: for a really weaksauce example, say I take the square of a number x. In the result I've also computed the square of the number -x, and this for 'free'.
Duffer1: cads read the Reicoin whitepaper you'd like it ^.^
Duffer1: MP read the Primecoin whitepapaer you'd like it
cads: mircea_popescu: we'll have an epsilon for each target problem, and maybe the cost of solving al the target problems starting from A must be greater than or equal to solving B, C, D... seperately.
mircea_popescu: "turn this wheel and an egg will fall out every revolution, then look if any eggs have feathers attached" is not okay
mircea_popescu: "turn this wheel and an egg will fall out every revolution and also a feather every ten revolutions" is okay, whereas
mircea_popescu: you can in principle sift through the history and find convenient cases for any particular problem
mircea_popescu: well wait, that's hiding the ε ?
cads: mircea_popescu: to formalize this completely we'll have to assume something like a polynomial time algorithm that converts the output of algorithm A into a solution for problem B.
cads: "Hypothesis: if an algorithm's output provides proof of 1 unit of work, and that output is also usable to provide the equivalent of epsilon units of useful work for another problem, then the energy expenditure of the algorithm must be greater or equal to 1 + epsilon units of work."
mircea_popescu: i suppose actually my lemma may end up the equivalent of quantum indeterminacy, but for maths.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, most minds have their head splints set to promote that nowadays.
Duffer1: Riecoin is the one for large primes
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i suppose it degenerates into some sort of banal equality otherwise
mircea_popescu: cads but would we be able to trust the results
cads: mircea_popescu: I think we should be able to test the hypothesis directly against the primecoin if we try hard enough
BingoBoingo: In a world with Auroa coin and Mazacoin... THere is a good chance random graphs might mine better in tard efforts at implementation
cads: mircea_popescu: I don't feel it mathematically yet but I feel why we'd like this to hold, economically
mircea_popescu: ie, if on average your useless-pow block costs 1, the useful-pow will cost 1+ε, where ε >= the useful
BingoBoingo: I mean for the first set you could probably encode information much as RSA does. I don't have enough vodka on hand to speculate if that would be a good idea. Most of Elliptic curve cryptography works on spaces that can be played with in graph theory world though.
mircea_popescu: should an algorithm exist to resolve the problem of ts on randomly distributed graphs, an application of that algorithm on a selected set of graphs with a useful application will cost more than the normal by an ammount at least equal to the cost of computing the useful application.
BingoBoingo: For most naive attempts at implementations the second set would likely be simpler and cheaper than the first
BingoBoingo: Also ironic, how pissed would the whales be if they knew we used the same word for our losers and their dicks.
cads: well lets see a better example. Problem 1 makes us solve the travelling salesman problem on random graphs. Problem 2 makes us solve travelling salesman on maps that appear indistinguishable from the first ones, but in fact encode valuable information in their solutions. For your hypothesis to be true, it should be impossible for the second problem to cost less energy than the first?
BingoBoingo: Indeed. Most of the really big breaks in computational theory cam from the women before the dorks realized they could make their own fantasy worlds.
mircea_popescu: a bit ironic because the poor woman suffered plenty through being a woman. ended up teaching under hilbert's name because the sort of boneheads roaming about end of 19th century couldn't have a woman colleague
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Once they hit the crystal... It's just safest to assign them the pronoun that inspires the least sexual interest.
mircea_popescu: possibly the smartest woman that ever lived.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo emmy noether was a woman
mircea_popescu: cads no but the key is your "or". turn it to "and" and see.
cads: i don't see it because regardless of the supposed usefullness, the algorithm still uses 2^k energy.
BingoBoingo: The rejected hashes might already contain that play.
cads: mircea_popescu: it's without question that anyone can look at the outputs of the two algorithms and verify that ~2^k energy was expended. Perhaps the problem happens when we require the second algorithm to also guarantee a useful output relative to the third party.
mircea_popescu: i imagine after enough btc blocks, we'll actually get shakespeare's merchant of venice in the hashes, so why not
mircea_popescu: cads but if it's purely coincidental then you don't have a pow that does protein folding, you just have a pow that occasionally folds a protein
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's clearly interesting. or as the romanian expression goes, "un prostovan arunca o piatra in apa si zece filosofi se chinuie s-o scoata"
cads: I feel the value supposition must be completely independent and coincidental to the energy requirements. You could even suppose it is pure coincidence the output of the second algorithm is structured such that it's useful to the third party.
BingoBoingo: Like he didn't have a big bag of meth either
cads: Now suppose both solutions are verifiably by a third party in polynomial time. But suppose additionally that the answer for the second problem also has a value of $100 to the third party. The question is should the second process take more energy to compute?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no we want like emmy noether for this shit
mircea_popescu: something like the 2+2 = 4 2*2 = 4 sorta thing.
BingoBoingo: Shame Erdos and his bog bag of meth are out of the picture
mircea_popescu: im probably restating well known and anciently established mathematical fact, but here, mp's lemma : any computation of two results can be reduced to two computations of the respective results, and the sum of the energy consumed by the latter will be at most equal to the energy consumed by the former process.
mircea_popescu: "you can make any sha key you want, as long as every other byte is FA"
cads: this would be neat to model, and may well be true in a very theormodynamic sense
cads: mircea_popescu> this could be understood on a macro level as "if there are outside constraints on your pow process, you'll need that many more iterations"
mircea_popescu: no but you're math-literate, how would this work ? you compute two things with the same stone ? what's the idea here ?
mircea_popescu: im not debating whether it's interesting, it's definitely interesting. i'm just saying it;'s stupid. stupid things are usually interesting, at least as amusements
cads: the author does provide me with say 30 bits of novel information (I had not known of prime coin - the paper is interesting)