domsch: I can tell you a personal story, how I tried to run my first startup, (a performance based advertising network, known as CPA = Cost Per Action) and how I was scammed out of my last $1000 and had to work over the summer as a construction worker to get enough money to continue working on the project.
benkay: what what, in the butt
domsch: Good read. And I definitely agree with you on some of the aspects that young people (of my age, younger or older) are in this space to grasp an opportunity - these are the people that don’t see the future, the long-term benefit. These are the people that are there to fuck you in the ass when they see the slightest chance to get away with a few bucks.
mircea_popescu: ok. get in the wot, and read this :
kakobrekla: the name sounds german
mircea_popescu: you the 17yo italian guy with fileyy / 360box game hacks ?
benkay: you're all after the same thing but not competitors?
domsch: yes I really like what Bigfoot is doing. I don’t think that anyone in this space can be treated as a competitor (in broad perspective of course) - we are mostly all after the same and pursue the same ideals.
ThickAsThieves: they make "educational" brochures filled with logos
Namworld: There's already large processors offering service plus conversion plus daily bank deposit for 1% fee.
domsch: educating and approaching the average consumer goes hand in hand.
benkay: where's the overlap between "educational aspects" and "tools to add liquidity"?
domsch: Crypto-related. We are mostly concerned on the educational aspects of the space and are creating several tools that are there to add liquidity to the market and help users embrace the new technology (not just bitcoin of course) in their every day life.
domsch: Hey guys, Dom here. I’m in the process of setting up a few businesses and am actively involved in a few crypto-hubs. Just wanted to hang out in a few IRC channels to talk with people from the space.
tg2: but yeah ultimately it comes back to the same issue where the people running the business have to maek hte decisions
Namworld: Assuming majority is in on the fraud...
tg2: yeah I think the reality is it would be possible
Namworld: I'm not sure how such a system would work to actually prevent fraud. Unless that system had exclusive amangement of funds. But then running a business would be close of impossible if all money spent needs to be approved by shareholders.
tg2: but you still ahve to trust the service
tg2: I knew somebodyw as working on a wallet-splitter where you sent to an address and it split it by a fixed % and sent back out to the other x addresses
mircea_popescu: tg2 anyway, you can take the message upstairs. "guy actually said you either play ball or he buries you, it seems improbable but he does have a history of doing exactly that."
tg2: anybody working on a distirbuted-trust system for these types of scenarios?
tg2: but you'd see the house % going down
ThickAsThieves: "The coins are not stored on the public addresses shown on the homepage. They go into a secret chamber buried underneath the arctic circle Wink
ThickAsThieves: I thought I had answered my own question after I sent my message to you. I thought your answer was going to be "Because all of the coins are stored in the public addresses on the home page, and everyone would see we were filtering out money". Do the coins all stay in the wallets posted on the home page (until dividends are paid), or do they get moved around in storage?
ThickAsThieves: Does that answer the question?
ThickAsThieves: For example, if I took 10 btc of SD earnings and rebet it over and over and over, eventually it would all be owned to the shareholders on mpex because they would see that the site had xxxxxxx in bets and xxxxxxx in profit owed to them.
ThickAsThieves: How would this hide profits from shareholders? It would do the opposite... it would inflate the site's earnings (because 1.9% of all bets becomes site profit) and then would require that the site pay shareholders -more- than they should legitimately have.
ThickAsThieves: Am I missing something about the setup that prevents this?"
mircea_popescu: asicminer went from .1 to 5 then to .5
tg2: is really the only way he could be guilty of anything
tg2: whether or not erik did anything to deflate or inflate that value
Namworld: They got the short end of the stick, but is it because a scam occured? Contract was respected and outperformed. They bought at the high.
ThickAsThieves: it was actually the first thing i ever did in bitcoin communication, sent a msg to erik asking how it could be proven he wasnt stealing
Namworld: Afaik it was not Voorhees' I think, just one of the private shareholder selling. I suppose accusations come from people who bought then.
Namworld: People complained because new shares were put up and sold in the 0.004-0.006 range if I recall right, for about 5 million shares?
tg2: then bought back at "ipo" price
tg2: then it deflated
Namworld: They get 1/2 instead of 1/6th of what they paid because MPEx shareholders got about 3x too much for what the sale price was.
mircea_popescu: afaik there was this longstanding theory that erik is betting with himself. i never could see any proof for it, people were welcome to find it etc.
tg2: hard to calculate who got the great deal
tg2: but yeah it does open the door to fukc al ot of people when you pull strings on both sides
Namworld: Basically, contract was respected. People are mad about the SD deal because they can't verify anything about the sale. They bought at a high price and claim Erik sold to "himself" for low after selling some shares for a very high price or other such accusations.
mircea_popescu: they wanna take a crap all over it, no big deal really.
tg2: I know people involved in the awesomepennystocks.com fiasco
Namworld: Either way, people butthurt about buying too high from the bigger shareholders who sold when the price was high.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves such fucktards with this bs. just won't learn will they.
mircea_popescu: either way, life.
mircea_popescu: alternatively, they get a pitchfork mob going, and i'll have to hire a security detail around the shop.
ThickAsThieves: http://blog.coinbase.com/post/81407694500/update-on-coinbase-data-security TLDR: There is nothing wrong with our system, but we fixed it
mircea_popescu: eventually shop owner calls the special down syndrome kid number to have the kid removed from the premises.
Namworld: Afaik, I think it was not Erik that sold shares over IPO, but the offer was other shareholders that wanted to sell at those high prices?
mircea_popescu: the simile would be a down syndrome kid walking into a shop going GLEEEERHRHRHR!!
mircea_popescu: tg2 we never got to know what they actually wanted because they could never figure how to express themselves.
Namworld: Because sell price way under IPO price, yet all MPEx shareholders got like 3x the price per share such they they'd get over the initial IPO price at the expense of private shareholders.
tg2: things like that happen though in regular companies that are listed, private party has an interest, buys all the shares above market, non-voting can't do much about it
Namworld: I suppose especially those who bought from the slices of shares over IPO prices.
benkay: MPEx is the big target.
tg2: so if the dice buyout was kosher, ie: all the buyers got their fair value for their shares, why is SEC sniffing around for that corp in particular?
Namworld: It's not like the requirements are too much or too hard to meet.
mircea_popescu: otherwise kakobrekla asciilifeform etc could comment on it
Namworld: and that's the point I was talking about. I don't care about people believing them to be official because of that. It's not like it's their problem or anyone's to go put disclaimers on everything so people don't have to think and just follow directions.
mircea_popescu: there's no process. mpex shares hold no voting rights. nobody asks your opinion on how the comp is run.
tg2: just curious about the process
tg2: wouldn't all the shareholders have to agree to sell it?
Namworld: Did they ever claim to be official? I recall seeing claims of being the largest discussion forum about Bitcoin and that's it.
Namworld: Yes, all I'm saying is, if they're biased, okay. But why blame them for people confusing them for being official?
tg2: so how did it get sold to private party then
Namworld: Just about them claiming to be somewhat official.
nubbins`: Namworld: if sportstalk.org predated widespread use of sports, it probably would be quite the hub of activity.
Namworld: If someone thing it's official, it's because they have no idea of the substance of the topic, not because the forum owners didn't put enough disclaimers.
Namworld: Same as if someone thought someone running gunstalk, goldtalk, sportstalk or whatever kind of forum was the official worldwide representative of guns, gold or sports respectively.
mircea_popescu: "n 1994 Crichton became the only creative artist ever to have works simultaneously charting at No. 1 in television, film, and book sales"
Namworld: If people think they're official, it's because they don't understand Bitcoin, not because they run a Bitcoin forum.
Namworld: Because they decided to.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea. why would these derps run a bitcoin forum ?
Namworld: A little mention "not official, Bitcoin is decentralized" under the names would be nice, but what if they don't? I ain't going to harass them all day long, now, should I?
mircea_popescu: well maybe you should run a catholic choir nambla local group then ?
Namworld: It claims to be a Bitcoin forum like the foundation says Bitcoin Foundation. That people perceive them as official or not, I don't care.
mircea_popescu: Namworld it claims to be. peoples implicit claims are held against them.
mircea_popescu: the gmaxwell sin.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla deeper than that : they moderate the content to favour scammers, under a pretense of moderating the form.
Namworld: I wasn't aware it was somehow official. Is the Bitcoin foundation official too?
pankkake: bitcointa.lk does not detect the extension :(
kakobrekla: the problem is just one
mircea_popescu: so this has been an exercise in "let's discuss how the salmon would fly if it had no wings" ?
Namworld: There's a reason why I'm not a forum admin tho, hard decisions to make, everyone always butthurt all the time, more bland content and same old being repated you can't read and filter everything.
mircea_popescu: rather than a 20something nobody with nary a clue.
mircea_popescu: do you see a difference there ?
mircea_popescu: Namworld yes well, some people make MPs thing, some other people make Bitcoin thing.
ThickAsThieves: wow theyre really gonna try and harass you now...
Namworld: I'm not there to protect people's feeling like I'm not there to protect people from scammers. Just preventing straight up inflamatorry posts without substance.
Namworld: No. But as admin I get to determine what is and what isn't acceptable. Even if the nuance is subtle.
mircea_popescu: is there a difference between "i perceive a difference" and "there is a difference" ?
ThickAsThieves: is there?
Namworld: There's a difference between "This guy is a scammer LINK" "This is a scam because X, Y, Z or because I think so" and "You sound like a scammer, get the fuck out you dimwit scum"
Namworld: And I wouldn't ban scam accusations, weither true or false, like I wouldn't ban someone I thought is probably a scammer, weither true or false?
mircea_popescu: they caught on lmao.
ThickAsThieves: the line blurs at people making scam accusations
ThickAsThieves: <Namworld> At the same time, why would they ban scammers? It's not like it's their job to investigate and provide proof of scams and then ban them. That's not how forums work.
ThickAsThieves: suddenly youre in the business you said you shouldnt be in
ThickAsThieves: so do you allow false accusations then?
ozbot: Leah McGrath Goodman: "I Am Satoshi Nakamoto" | The CoinFront | Bitcoin News
ThickAsThieves: maybe thats why their mods suck
Namworld: Insult as randomly calling people words and swearing at them, not people "feeling" insulted.
ThickAsThieves: it's a state of being for them
ThickAsThieves: Namworld, the forumites are perpetually insulted
Namworld: Insult = ban, explanation as to why someone shouldn't be trusted/their offer is bad, okay as long as polite.
ThickAsThieves: so heavy, the coins
Namworld: Honestly, I'd probably just ban people insulting others/derailing threads regardless of how likely they are right or the accused is a scammer.
ThickAsThieves: cuz he couldnt hold them himself
ThickAsThieves: didnt thermos entrust John K with forum coins?
kakobrekla: yes thermos did not respond to my email
ThickAsThieves: they do not care
ThickAsThieves: it needs owners that care about their thing
Namworld: They already gave a rating system for people to leave feedbacks/make investigation of scam accusation easy. Rating page will list all the wrongs people are accused of.
ThickAsThieves: we're here all trying to sort the finer points of why its fucked
ThickAsThieves: the problem is this conversation puts us down to their level, and that pissed me off too
mircea_popescu: there you have it. well broked.
mircea_popescu: well so then talk about broken windows
Namworld: That should indeed be implemented. So scammers can't leverage an account with lots of post to make a clean thread. Yet again, if you don't look up the guy's history even if the thread is clean...
mircea_popescu: at least going by the digests.
mircea_popescu: from "derps derping bitcoin" to "these people are criminals in disguise"
mircea_popescu: Namworld not giving scammers the ability to make "Self moderated" threads would be one thing.
Namworld: I'd probably have left him there, yes. Let people rate each other/sort scammers out/investigate offers. It's trivial to make new accounts anyway. Scammers might as well keep their account with psts but also tainted reputation.
ThickAsThieves: the whole thing is obviously hopeless
mircea_popescu: i'm extraditing myself over to the bar in a minute.
ThickAsThieves: mods wanna mod, but dont start with their own rep system for targets?
twizt: mircea_popescu: did they extradite you yet lol
mircea_popescu: Namworld in the case of teh btctalk you do see it, https://bitcointa.lk/threads/ipvo-multiple-exchanges-neo-bee-lmb-holdings.167762/page-226
nubbins`: vexual hangs in the balance
Namworld: Garr? is he still there under his own account?
kakobrekla: interestingly there seems to be two groups of people. first think asseters took ze drugs, the second group thinks they them selfs are on something. perhaps this tells a thing.
Namworld: That's the other issue with forums. If some admins/mods are bad and good at it, you won't see it.
ThickAsThieves: possibly their legal one too
ThickAsThieves: it is in their financial interest to be ethical though
ThickAsThieves: it's not their duty to seek and prove scamming
ThickAsThieves: Namworld i think your view is too black & white on the matter
mircea_popescu: Namworld yeah except if you ban people that tell you to get fucked after you deleted a half dozen posts they made ostensibly because "you have to minimise the visibility of moderation" but really because you just as well didn't want their content visible
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mod6: lilo` was a freenode admin back in the day.
mircea_popescu: answer : a mobster and acting boss of the bonanno crime family.
Namworld: I can see why they'd say they only ban people derailing conversations/insulting without proofs. And just put a little scammer tag only once it's proven it's a scam.
Namworld: At the same time, why would they ban scammers? It's not like it's their job to investigate and provide proof of scams and then ban them. That's not how forums work. Plus the whole thing about banning without proof at first.
ThickAsThieves: <moiety> ThickAsThieves: if you really want banned, simply go in anything and personally insult people offtopic. /// seems a step too far for me, i'll just not visit anymore unless to view a reference from this chan, or the like
mircea_popescu: prolly can clear 10 dollars a day on average, for 8 hour's work, which is just about the worldwide net average salary.
Namworld: Some might not be poor. Like a kid, just for the thrill. Scam a little amount.
Namworld: Scamming 10 bucks here, 50 there, making new accounts and a few posts and small trades.
Namworld: I'm sure it's a job for many on the forums/otc.
Namworld: It's completly not worth it to sue them, plus people won't do it just for the principle because the person is probably poor and in bad need of money. So why send a message by suing for something so small? (On top of it being close to impossible, re other jurisdiction combined with low amount)
mircea_popescu: Namworld good point re the relative safety. i guess many of them aren't unaware of it.
bounce: asleep at the wheel then trying to pull a sgt. hardass, wasn't too impressive from what little I saw of it.
moiety: its unfair because of the way that forum is conducted
Namworld: And the guy knows he's not going to be sued for it.
moiety: ThickAsThieves: if you really want banned, simply go in anything and personally insult people offtopic. its the only thing they ban for, in their words.
mircea_popescu: they should also invest in that casino thing , whatever it was called.
moiety: mircea_popescu: i just caught up properly. is mpoe-pr ok? I hope so. it's pretty rough going dealing with shit for a long time and it then it ending unfairly.
kakobrekla: > We congratulate BTC.sx on their continued success and the global respect they have earned among Bitcoin traders,” says Eddy Travia, Cofounder and Chief Startup Officer of Seedcoin.
kakobrekla: > In fact, this opportunity gives Seedcoin a substantial position in the most reputable, popular and advanced derivative trading platform for Bitcoin.
ozbot: BTC.sx Receives Largest Seedcoin Fund Investment: Virtual Incubator Finances the First Bitcoin-Only
mircea_popescu: eventually people's histories with you are more valuable to them than any one trade so even the scammers won't scam you.
mircea_popescu: select the 7 that etc do 100
mircea_popescu: select the 8 that didn't run, do 50 dolla
benkay: yeah well then do your dilligence on trust ratings.
mike_c: honey for the scammors. i'll try it again sometime.
mike_c: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php?type=SELL&nick=&thing=BTC&otherthing=&eitherthing=¬es= << who you going to buy from on this list besides sturles?
benkay: people are insufficiently wary about touching both the fiat rail and the crypto rail at the same time.
mircea_popescu: how the fuck do i know
benkay: why does it depend on where you live? even in the states one can buy moneypak with cash.
benkay: otc is not really a pain in the ass.
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mike_c: i guess it's just that the other water sources are filled with sewage, so the ringworm doesn't look so bad.
mircea_popescu: which are water for the locals, on the basis of the practicality that w/o water your le is a day.
mircea_popescu: there's you know, ringworm infested puddles all over africa
mike_c: there is a practicality here. i can actually buy bitcoin with coinbase (with no $$ balance). there are extremely limited other ways for me to do that.
mike_c: steal my 401k, what the fuck do i care? it's worthless anyway.
mircea_popescu: if you have the sense to withdraw it
mircea_popescu: i don't think the average us person realises exactly how fucked they are. and the "well everyone else is just as fucked" thinkin doesn't really work.
mircea_popescu: i could withdraw your 401k early and guess what ? even if you do gert it back, the tax is still due.
mike_c: how is this different from any other online service?
mircea_popescu: not the point.
mike_c: yes, so my buys are recorded. what am i going to do? use localbitcoin and buy all my coin on the street corner?
mircea_popescu: mike_c but you do have to hold your id with them
mike_c: i like coinbase. i don't have to hold any $$ with them in order to buy btc.
mircea_popescu: This is the reason."
mircea_popescu: Coinbase IS EXACTLY a random website made in a basement. So is AirBnB. So is everying else YC backed. Get over yourselves, lay down the pipe, you're a laughingstock for a reason.
mircea_popescu: "The last "isn't some random website made in a basement" case was NeoBee. There were bunch of others before that, exactly similar.
benkay: "The steal-all-your-money rate of bitcoin businesses is running right around 100%, and you're going to lecture people that "they can only ever lose a small portion of all stored user funds"? Really?"
benkay: let's give the shitshow some credit, shall we?
mircea_popescu: "Coinbase isn't some random website made in a basement. It's a well funded, YC backed, known-founder company that complies with relevant banking law. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that they hold a partial reserve or have any ill intention whatsoever."
ThickAsThieves: k i added the link as-is for now with suggestion for rewrite
mircea_popescu: the wot post
bounce: pr00f of h4x, I say. just like mpoe-pr clearly got h4xx0red. the mod was right!
ThickAsThieves: ok i've added short descriptions to all the wiki links so far, surely they'll need editing and maybe some references
bounce: ze mod said so, must be true then
ThickAsThieves: just need to sort how to edit them now
ThickAsThieves: mostly wanted to edit categories and create them
kakobrekla: it will show in the menu automatically
kakobrekla: and create the page
kakobrekla: if there is something specific you want to do i can tell you what you need to do
kakobrekla: ThickAsThieves also there is a playground page to play around with
mircea_popescu: im kinda surprised nobody's come out with the "herp is really mp" line.
ThickAsThieves: google giving weird returns for the forum
ThickAsThieves: a buncha a links is only arguably better than 'go read the log'
ThickAsThieves: that's my thought, trying to make sure some context is injected into the wiki
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves maybe a re-write of the girl
bounce: and what's that old fashioned thing with dashes? these days you are supposed to sprinkle apostrophes across your prose just in case you missed a spot, but no dashes
ThickAsThieves: anyone know a good article explaining WHY the WoT is good, something to convince a noob
mike_c: or demo-ed to the sound of thunderous applause
mircea_popescu: there, implemented both fixes.
mike_c: i mean, either demo-ed before a rapturous audience
mike_c: first: bug in the snsa report :D "demo-ed before a rapturous applause"
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ThickAsThieves: i still think having the shares "listed" isnt a good path
mircea_popescu: moiety cool. if you fuck it up all these other experts can fix it. but it seems unless someone starts nobody does sortt of thing
benkay: if you have 2 classes of shares, maybe track both classes of shares with the share tracking thing.
mike_c: they are contracted to maintain a % of ownership
mircea_popescu: benkay then people can start pulling a danny.