mircea_popescu: exactly the way i handle btc, incidentally. just don't sound like the lumpens and you'll be okay.
mircea_popescu: if you had any sort of a clue and could talk the talk of business, you just got money.
mircea_popescu: to translate this, some history : romania was a communist country. to get it on a capitalist system, anyone not fucktarded enough was simply given money, from the state.
HeySteve: well, in terms of WoT there is a time cost to registration with gribble
mircea_popescu: fluffypony the romanian expression is "suntem pe investitii"
HeySteve: perhaps I'm being thick but I don't see how http://trilema.com/2012/adnotated-words-of-wisdom-on-the-topic-of-online-fraud/ applies to blockchain WoT. Nigerians pic made me lol though
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you there ?
fluffypony: are you priming the system to attract an audience before raising fees, or are you just very altruistic company?
fluffypony: small enough that the guy referring one or two customers won't care
Naphex: along the lines where i was thinking:P
fluffypony: eg. for every referred customer you get 2% of their fees forever
Naphex: some incentive there o.o
mircea_popescu: affiliate advertising is going to be major in this space, and currently it's way the fuck nowhere.
Naphex: more like just rewarding users for inviting other users
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: one of the directors of a small group of companies, of which OpenRigs is a part
HeySteve: appreciate discussing it with people who understand the WoT in depth
mircea_popescu: this does not speak to the problem.
fluffypony: so then you're chasing away legitimate users
HeySteve: well, I want to make the signup cost vastly more expensive than the cost of earning rep through good behaviour
mircea_popescu: this is much ampler discussed in this older article : http://trilema.com/2012/adnotated-words-of-wisdom-on-the-topic-of-online-fraud/
mircea_popescu: but it IS a discouragement to the legit members.
fluffypony: followed by: http://trilema.com/2014/advanced-wot-course-how-the-wot-is-attacked-and-how-it-defends-itself/
mircea_popescu: because the cost is not a discouragement to the sybil, if it has a way to turn a profit
fluffypony: but spotting the sockpuppets is easy
HeySteve: right, to register an identity within this system there would be a BTC cost
fluffypony: all I need to do is create a number of fake actors and claim they only did good deeds today (each fake actor supporting the other) and I receive average yearly income * the number of fake actors I've created
mircea_popescu: and so through incentivising good behaviour i managed to... break the wot.
mircea_popescu: because... well... what the fuck, everyone's doing good deeds whether they're good men or not.
mircea_popescu: so i say to these people : each day you only do good deeds, you will receive your average yearly income. but for every bad deed you do, you get fined x% of that.
mircea_popescu: i own more money than the entire village is worth, a million times over.
mircea_popescu: let me make this point clearer through an example. suppose i go to a village in somalia. this village has 100 people and they're all normal people, they do good and bad things by w/e definition of good and bad.
HeySteve: ah. well as I see it, bad behaviour leads to negative rep which makes future trades less likely and the inverse is true. that's how I use the term incentives.
mircea_popescu: because the wot is the measure of how people respond to incentives, it makes no sense to change its neutrality to add incentives for particular responses.
HeySteve: <+mircea_popescu> incentives do not belong in the wot.
mircea_popescu: incentives do not belong in the wot.
HeySteve: I have a further idea to incentivise non-scammy behaviour too
HeySteve: and associating costs with establishing an identity and rating people may improve the system slightly
mircea_popescu: fluffypony and in the case of btcjam, because they know they're running a scam platform. it'd make no sense to take any steps that make this more obvious than it actually is.
HeySteve: sure, but putting the identity and associated ratings into a blockchain
mircea_popescu: HeySteve i don't follow ? the wot is integrated with any cryptocurrency as it is. i can and have rated people for say... atc deals.
fluffypony: instead of reinventing the wheel (and doing so badly)
fluffypony: although tbh I don't know why sites like that and BTCJam etc. don't just integrate with the WoT
mircea_popescu: dexX7: bci allows to push signed transactions but no signing << there's a reason for this. you shoulodn't be providing privkeys.
mircea_popescu: HeySteve: I was a seller there, it's unfortunate there's no way to migrate feedback from shuttered markets... << which is why wot.
mircea_popescu: the better women aren't moms, yo.
mircea_popescu: not i, not this year. i took some gents with whom i work up to the mountain for 4 days of drinking and talking about what the ever loving fuck we want to do for the next 3-7 years. << so you had brosex.
mircea_popescu: and simply replaced with a handwritten list, either our friends or everyone else.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile they took that out,
mircea_popescu: Naphex but see, that's the snag : they used to do it as a per-domain page rank thing.
Naphex: then they merged together in the current version, which will always have preferential PageRank
Naphex: they have been doing that for ages
mircea_popescu: curious how long till the lolsuit.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: (and even if it isn't, i'm pretty sure that's their rationale)
mircea_popescu: so basically, if they actually allowed the uplink they'd have to have a filtering datacenter.
bounce: depends on how the transit agreements work. some places actually liked generating more bandwidth "the other way", as it pushed the balance a bit more towards evening out
mircea_popescu: romania could, on the basis of end user installed gateways, nuke the rest of hte planet off the internet
bounce: like you're ever going to take it out and put it somewhere else. even so, throttling the uplink doesn't really buy you much of anything, hardware wise
mircea_popescu: spool it up, stick it in the box.
mircea_popescu: see, for instance, the whole town is full of fiber spools hanging from poles
mircea_popescu: bounce they save on gear upstream is all.
mircea_popescu: Naphex sure there is.
bounce: good for the gamer kids though, "low ping"
Naphex: is there no RDS in TM?:)
bounce: it doesn't really make sense to throttle the uplink on glass, though. it's likely just throttled gigabit.
mircea_popescu: actually upc arguably started as astral, which you know... got started by the father of a chick i was doing back in hs
Naphex: it started here, with TVS (The TV network)
mircea_popescu: better juice closer to the plant :D
mircea_popescu: AND they will layer it for you. you can get 1tbps both ways in this country, and it won't break your bank.
mircea_popescu: a btw, to bother everyone : local isp just unveiled its easter surprise w/e.
mircea_popescu: either that or move to drinking.
fluffypony: it should almost blend into supper time, so you top it off towards the evening without needing to eat an entire other meal
fluffypony: it's the only way to eat
mircea_popescu: some peeps' first encounter of the proper european lunch, where you spend a few good hours with your food.
mircea_popescu: kinda rthe idea
mircea_popescu: fluffypony as far as romanians are concerned, the 90s were spent going "da-i romaneasca ?" ie, does it suck ?
mircea_popescu: Naphex i actually like them both. which i guess is somewhat rare.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony exactyly the opposite yeah
mircea_popescu: because w/e, romanians were liek teh first on the internet.
fluffypony: quite unlike the Germans who won't use it if it's not in German
mircea_popescu: this would be the definition of racism : 10 units of e + 1 unit of r is more than 0e + 100 r.
mircea_popescu: they have their own official site and everything. problem is, they don't have much english support on the web, being.. you know, a romanian language band.
mircea_popescu: then one day i use one of their lines as a title for a post, and i get the #1 spot by morning.
mircea_popescu: so there's this romanian rap band, bug mafia. it exists since the 90s, it was one of the first in the sense someone in bitcoin since 2010 is "one of the first". they're to this day the best by a very very fat margin.
mircea_popescu: oh for the love of all that's holy.
cazalla: i don't tbh as i'm still relatively young and by the time i'm old, perhaps there will be a cure
mircea_popescu: "We would also let you know that a letter is also attached to your package. However, we cannot quote its content to you via E-mail for privacy reasons. We understand that the content of your package itself is a Bank Draft worth $800,000.00 USD; in FedEx we do not ship money in CASH or in CHEQUE but in Bank Drafts only."
fluffypony: and then five seconds later forget how to eat properly
fluffypony: it's quite sad because he'll have these flashes when we've been talking about Bitcoin where he'll understand everything and comment with incredible depth
fluffypony: her grandfather (maternal) was a professor of economics, incredibly gifted man, who is now suffering from dementia
HeySteve: fluffypony, don't think it's the splitter, got a new one. think water is getting in the line somehow
fluffypony: like the car?
mircea_popescu: sends daughter to water the pole (ie, pour a bucket of water at base on old wooden pole, no cables there or anything)
mircea_popescu: great somalian film. in it there's a scene where old woman can't talk on cellphone
fluffypony: HeySteve: when the wind blows or it rains our connection goes down, welcome to Africa
HeySteve: mircea_popescu I found another of his oil paintings going for nearly $10 mil
HeySteve: sure thing, I think many people will have questions at that price especially considering the piece's history
mircea_popescu: jus... doing the topic justice as it were.
HeySteve: still, anything above 12 million would make it the most expensive thing offered for btc to my knowledge
HeySteve: I'm just reporting what the seller's agent told me
HeySteve: well, I don't expect it will sell for bitcoin, more likely for USD if they get their price (which may be lower than their asking)
mircea_popescu: HeySteve i tell you i dun see it. i estimate it to be worth in the 90-190 btc range. now what ?
mircea_popescu: i mean i guess the idea is that bitcoiners are so fucking rich and clueless that they have no idea what's what, so they may throw 100k btc on something worth 1% of that.
HeySteve: involving the NFL star's ponzi scheme
HeySteve: however, that value was estimated in one of the linked stories I believe
mircea_popescu: there, buy a copper dildo he made for ... 20k usd.
fluffypony: "This page scientifically designed to annoy web hipsters. Donate now to stop the Comic Sans and Blink Tags"
dexX7: pushing via bci works of cource but the tx needs to be signed first
fluffypony: ok so then can't you use blockchain.info to push it once it's signed?
dexX7: that's the plan fluffypony. and i'm looking for a way to sign with a minimal setup. like a very simple website + js or similar
fluffypony: dexX7: sign offline and then push?
nanotube: HeySteve: fluffypony: fyi, can grab the db files for backup here: http://bitcoin-otc.com/otc/ and the code for the plugins is here https://github.com/nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/
dexX7: do you know any legit website which allows to sign raw transactions after providing the rawtx + privkey? nothing fancy and the less overhead the better
HeySteve: sure, it's open source and the data is easily copied, so I guess it could be mirrored easily enough
fluffypony: HeySteve: you'd have to ask nanotube for details, but with the vested interest from all parties in the WoT it isn't going anywhere
gribble: The operation succeeded.
fluffypony: best way is to get buyers to rate you on the WoT as well
HeySteve: I was a seller there, it's unfortunate there's no way to migrate feedback from shuttered markets...
fluffypony: I've bought a couple of things on CryptoThrift, not blown away by the site but it seems to be a lot better than BitMit
fluffypony: probably just slipped through the cracks
fluffypony: "Takes poker. It’s a game which is also an adult activity due to the money involved." <- broke my brain
fluffypony: BingoBoingo: the amounts in that article are staggering
BingoBoingo: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/digging-for-answers-the-strong-smell-of-fraud-from-one-bitcoin-miner-maker/
bitcoinpete: More Piketty: "The simple fact is that large wealth taxes do not mesh well with the norms and practices required by a successful and prosperous capitalist democracy. It is hard to find well-functioning societies based on anything other than strong legal, political, and institutional respect and support for their most successful citizens."
ozbot: "Riders On The Storm:" A Fictional Letter Explaining What Is Going On In Russia | Zero Hedge
gribble: The operation succeeded.
bitcoinpete: ;;later tell mircea_popescu you make a good point about the last line. as students of history, we ain't forgettin' shit. i'm tempted to re-write it but then your comment wouldn't make any sense. it did feel a bit off as i wrote it...
ozbot: Consumerism: The Great Equalizer – The Legacy of the French Revolution | When Bitcoin Met Pete
bitcoinpete: http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/consumerism-the-great-equalizer-the-legacy-of-the-french-revolution/
bitcoinpete: And I know MP caught my article earlier today, so for the rest of you:
bitcoinpete: "The three decades between 1950 and 1980 were truly unusual; the constellation of economic and demographic variables that produced prosperity during that period will probably not be re-created anytime soon." <<pretty much
bitcoinpete: Piketty: “there is no natural, spontaneous process to prevent destabilizing, inegalitarian forces from prevailing permanently.” <<destabilizing permanently is super contradictory
benkay`: would someone please explain precisely what contributions to struggle the Cypress bail in caused to me?
benkay`: "Last year, the government of the Republic of Cyprus imposed the equivalent of a tax on bank deposits, only to see the tax contribute to, rather than reverse, the island’s economic struggles."
moiety: i didnt know what they were, i see now
benkay`: remainder is left as an exercise to the reader.
moiety: this thing scares the life out of me, its really fast
benkay`: anyways, coming projects have to do with floaty things not moving lots of metal around in production lines so the risk is probably bounded to burning my hands (only things that've been paying my meagre wages since time immemorial).
ozbot: MorpHex, the incredible hexapod robot - YouTube
benkay`: the up-20 (universal payload, I imagine...) was an impressive device. rated at max for 20Kg, and could swing a payload of that size around at lethal speeds.
benkay`: anyways. at the close of that gig i made a rule for myself that i would no longer sit at the controls of machines that could maim or kill me.
benkay`: then i nearly took my own head off with it
benkay`: perhaps you love the atoms, and perhaps once i did as well, but i tired of the ever-present threat of digit removal.
benkay`: which means banging atoms together. again. still. now.
benkay`: not i, not this year. i took some gents with whom i work up to the mountain for 4 days of drinking and talking about what the ever loving fuck we want to do for the next 3-7 years.
moiety: i've been surviving lol im fine. why did you go to the conf benkay?
moiety: that place looks really nice! i havent seen these pictures, I saw the trilema ones. everyone looks so cute!
benkay`: the landed gentry have been galivanting about romania playing with custom electronics and being generally glamorous
benkay`: joecool: i did that earlier today, released, /nick'd myself, and then set it to autokick again.
benkay`: cgcardona_: the difference between us is that my friends in this channel can identify me without my needing to auth. kinda crazy, neh?
cgcardona_: in the spirit of benkay - PGP keys or GTFO </joke>
gribble: The operation succeeded.
moiety: ;; later tell BingoBoingo nope not moi but it is a manul! had to go look, i'm never there anymore
cgcardona_: enjoy the charge
cgcardona_: "the price of btc over time"
mircea_popescu: "you sure you didn't eat the twix bar ?"
mircea_popescu: actually someone was trying to measure their pulse
TestingUnoDosTre: What is hooked up to the oscilloscope in that picture?
asciilifeform: also, turns out the plastic-and-pluckfoam case thing is a good idea. everything else in my baggage got spindled, save for the contents of the Evil Attache.
cgcardona_: ;;rate asciilifeform 1 #bitcoin-assets regular and posted pics of the 2014 conf
cgcardona_: asciilifeform: epic pics. wish I was there.
asciilifeform: everyone here should recognize at least one or two of these.
kakobrekla: well, i had the romanian customs scratching my passport with his fingernails for like 10 minutes, asking all sorts of questions.
asciilifeform: davout, others: i've a vast collection of pics, of various things, will eventually sort and post one or two.
asciilifeform: the american one, on the last exit before dulles parking lot, wanted to know 'what kind of business? software? now say, what kind!'
asciilifeform: davout: the customs at all with all the gear he was carrying << not one guard gave so much as a rat's arse! colour me equally surprised.
asciilifeform: dexX7: regular queue! no one bothered to actually search, arse or suitcase, on egress
mircea_popescu: "I found myself conversing with a young criminal lawyer who will soon be marrying into the same family that I did last summer. I think this makes us laws-in-laws."
davout: i took a few pictures, mircea_popescu if you want to compile them lemme me know
diametric: That picture of Stan by the o-scope is amazing
davout: thestringpuller: you reckon?
davout: dexX7: i'm kind of surprised asciilifeform got through the customs at all with all the gear he was carrying :D
dexX7: did you do anything "suspicious" or is this the regular waiting time?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: sadly, yes. i was brought there as a boy and haven't accumulated fuel for orbital escape velocity as of this moment.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you live in the states?
asciilifeform: loltronicly - just got home to the Lande of teh Phree (tm)
dexX7: asicminer: "What is the status, size, and expected delivery of the next batch of chips? What about the one after that? -> This month: 850k, next month: 3.35m (order size), June: 6.7m (order size), assuming each chip is 10G." soo.. that's 8.5 - 67 petahash x_x
gribble: The operation succeeded.
benkay`: and then (i think) dissolves in water.
jurov: either it's powderware or they figured out a compound that produces ethanol in contact with water
bounce: ``If you have $100 million or more to invest, we'll be happy to talk to you. :) Otherwise we are not taking on investors.'' -- totally legit
jurov: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2014/apr/21/palcohol-powder-alcohol-vodka-rum-cocktail-snorting?CMP=fb_gu
dexX7: ah nvm. i found the blogpost
bounce: oh foo, need to re-do the via thing. hm.
bounce: probably should re-run that listing thing; the math was a bit borked.
rithm dagger to the heart
kakobrekla: rithm, yeah, although i fixed the parsing side, its not gonna work because it would break the simplicity of the design, so nick around if you wanna dick around
dexX7: the tool used was https://gephi.org/ which allows to import simple csvs but it's really slow for large datasets (or i simply don't know how to use it properly which is not unlikely :)
dexX7: only the assbot/#ba users
artifexd: dexX7: Did you visualize the entire wot?
artifexd: Interestingly, wrt anduck, he has a total of -69. There are 7 -10 ratings that are CLEARLY from the same person.
artifexd: mircea_popescu: When asking about the visual tool, I meant for the whole wot. Specifically to identify islands, groups, etc.
rithm: the bot is dumb
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask artifexd!sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zasykpxnqiqgtbip. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user artifexd: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=artifexd | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=artifexd | Rated since: Wed Mar 5 02:06:14 2014
mircea_popescu: artifexd actually the controlling example is... anduck himself has a total negaitve
bounce: if it's well over 10 or -10 that's a clear indication it wasn't by just one rating either
bounce: the fact that it exists at all is an interesting datum, inasmuch it doesn't say "not rated yet"
artifexd: When I said "look at the sum", I meant look at the single number which is the sum of all ratings.
bounce: sure you can. "person has been rated N times, some positive, some negative." -- negative ratings might well be the more interesting to read.
artifexd: Does anyone know of any wot visualization tools? I imagine something like bubbles with names and the lines connecting those bubbles are colored/weighted according to the rating.
artifexd: I would see such a rating as reflecting positively on the ratee.
artifexd: Imagine you had a negative rating from mtgox with the comment "TROLL!!!!!!"
fluffypony: oh the 30s
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: when do we get _Trilema: The Book_
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I dunno why the dude reverts to assuming personal attacks other than maybe the one sided blindess impressed upon the legal profession.
mircea_popescu: mkay, so i'm writing a seminal, major and epic work called "a complete theory of economics".
bounce: the end result to that would still be subjective. someone else might well feel a different way.
bounce: well, what is "the numeric method"? I can devise and use a system of numeric scales based on how much I feel I know about someone else.
mircea_popescu: so numbers are your standard of objectivity, but then when i ask you <mircea_popescu> are you using "subjectivity" merely to note the fact that the numeric method does not apply ? you say no.
mircea_popescu: while outside of his reach it may well be, his master's just another guy.
bounce: eh, I think we're past that. I can put three lava lamps on a table and count them. you'll count three too. no feels or beliefs involved. even if our counting system is ultimately arbitrary in it existence
mircea_popescu: you seem to be roughly in the position of the slave who says his master's will is divine in nature, because it's outside of his reach.
bounce: both're objective; I don't need a judgement call here, I look at the tape measure.
mircea_popescu: god help us if our opinions of these subjectives do not agree.
mircea_popescu: your "done corectly" is there precisely because you too know this :
mircea_popescu: <bounce> an objective measure? a metre, standard the world over. < 1 ; <bounce> whether I take a tape measure to $derp or you do it, when done correctly we both will conclude the guy's length to be $whatever. < 2
mircea_popescu: they exist as a result of people's opinions.
mircea_popescu: both of these "objectively" examples you provide strictly adhere to your definition of subjectivity,
bounce: whether I take a tape measure to $derp or you do it, when done correctly we both will conclude the guy's length to be $whatever. that'd be objective. we both look at his WOT ratings, we might well draw different conclusions on the same data.
bounce: an objective measure? a metre, standard the world over.
bounce: WOT ratings can well mean different things to you and me. they're not even ment to be used "objectively", ie in a manner independent of people's opinions.
mircea_popescu: are you using "subjectivity" merely to note the fact that the numeric method does not apply ?
bounce: you could still try and throw statistics at it, but that doesn't change the underlying subjectivity
bounce: what I mean is that even if the outcome is roughly the same for different onlookers, their conclusions are (supposedly) their own; like how you notice that there's no intl. standard of interpreting ratings. nor should there be.
mircea_popescu: if he looked to do what he felt like it could have been subjective, as a proxy for aesthetic i guess.
bounce: "subjective" as every user of the wot looking to form an opinion on some other user of the wot does so as he deems good, mayhaps taking into account that raters will also use their own criteria to rate with.
bounce: and every user has a differend yardstick, making the whole thing subjective to use.
mircea_popescu: understanding rather than esteem. the people you've dealt with are marks you may be recognised by.
bounce: anyway, "good wot relations" means that you've met and dealt with a number of other people, and gathered their esteem, and in doing so gathered a total esteem enough to be deemed worthy of the community as a whole.
bounce: oh well. AIUI paradise lost would beg to differ. haven't gotten around to actually reading the thing.
mircea_popescu: i am saying that the poor god is incapable.