cgcardona_: thank you sir. I authed w/ gribble. guess I forgot to !up
mircea_popescu: people arguing about how bitcoin will be obsoleted by "better tech", like that w3c muppet are mostly talking out of their ears.
mircea_popescu: well, at least some of them.
chetty: hmm bitcoin actually helps point out all the bad queens that have been mapped around over the years
mircea_popescu: similarly, the fiat interdiction on theft, or the bizarre expectations of forumers (whoi mostly live in fiat, cause they're not smart enough for their culture to be programmable by themselves), indignant at hao dares bitbet not "refund"
mircea_popescu: in this sense, the fiat taboo on counterfitting is nonsensical, but we didn't notice this to be the case until bitcoin mapped better on the actual reality.
mircea_popescu: it's nonsense to see such a rule in poker, per se. but in the context, as they're trying to map shit to a deck of cards, it makes sense. the change is due to the flaw.
mircea_popescu: like, "but you only get 2/3 of the pot if you win it with a qh" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: so if they're playing poker with bad cards (say, easy to recognise the queen of hearts) they may cut the queen of hearts game utility.
mircea_popescu: they're obviously in no sense unfair, but they do break the mapping, which is undesirable.
mircea_popescu: much like kids playing insta-ban specific behaviours they perceive as "unfair"
mircea_popescu: but the theory predicts that specific changes will be observable to reduce or mitigate the damage due to the particular vulnerabilities.
mircea_popescu: and an important point is : practical implementations will be more or less neatly mapped on the theoretical requirements. they may still function
mircea_popescu: benkay just the moe in order to be a moe.
ThickAsThieves: i also want to demonstrate to others in public so they may be motivated to do a better job than me at prodding it
mircea_popescu: currently the entire thing is "hey guise, check out this shit i made. i call it... a box cutter. it cuts everything"
ThickAsThieves: it's also possible identifying these all as economies may help distill/evolve the overall theory
mircea_popescu: "The Bureau of Prisons views any bartering among prisoners as fishy" << funny, seeing how they trade is mostly macks.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller sad fate eh.
mircea_popescu: they don't have to be separate in practice
ThickAsThieves: like, why are the gazette and forum even separate things?
mircea_popescu: the moe is "sauce pls" or w/e.
ThickAsThieves: and in doing do, learn more about how they interact
ThickAsThieves: my efforts here are to explore whether each of your 3 aspects are an economy themselves
mircea_popescu: then you technically can argue this is a moe.
mircea_popescu: i guess if your wotcoin actually works so that every user gets 10 coins for every other user present
ThickAsThieves: thats why the economy has special rules
ThickAsThieves: therefore it's not killed
mircea_popescu: while you can take kids or give them away
mircea_popescu: the fact that the points do not conserve. think of a medium of exchange as a family.
ThickAsThieves: i missed the specific fault
mircea_popescu: kinda why doge is a dodgy scam : cause their coins don't conserve.
ThickAsThieves: for every user, every other user gets 20 neg coins and 20 pos coins
ThickAsThieves: the system doesnt need to track them visibly because the system allocates for each ouser in it
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well so where are they ?
mircea_popescu: "About 150 soldiers from the 173rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), based in Italy, are heading to each of four countries Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in rotational deployments that the Pentagon says will be sustained until further notice." herp.
ThickAsThieves: you took them from me
mircea_popescu: well, if i unrate you now, where do the points go ?
mircea_popescu: you familiar with the conservation of energy ?
ThickAsThieves: hmm maybe i dont fully understand the conserving over time aspect
ThickAsThieves: first, the gazette does not require identification in your definition
ThickAsThieves: also, i'm with jurov, i see some weakness in the gazette/forum definitions and separation
ThickAsThieves: furthermore, <+mircea_popescu> ThickAsThieves but any ounce of gold stays an ounce of gold permanently. where do your rating points go when they go ? /// where is it in your theory that this matters?
ThickAsThieves: in fact, don't people do things at times strictly for the points?
benkay: are collusive rings in these content farms necessarily a bad thing?
mircea_popescu: there.
ThickAsThieves: my rating points are held by every user that hasnt given them to me yet
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves but any ounce of gold stays an ounce of gold permanently. where do your rating points go when they go ?
benkay: mircea_popescu: i assume the normal 'upvoting rings' developed and existed?
jurov: i'd extend a punishment gazette with 3. shared protocol and then maybe public forum can be simplified away
ThickAsThieves: <+mircea_popescu> so no, that's what it is : it isn't a wot because it can't be /// well i can accumulate points no? and at any given time, a maximum amount can be had, and every time a user joins anew, the system inflates to accommodate
ThickAsThieves: <+mircea_popescu> <ThickAsThieves> i have a feeling though, this theory will end up distilling into one that already exists << kinda cxurious about this myself. /// one thing it reminds me of is your basic escrow deal
ThickAsThieves: you cant create them
mircea_popescu: neither are fiat bills (not in the sense of the physical bill, but in the sense of it being authorised, it'll get reprinted, and trhe bill is that trademark that spawns the authirisation)
mircea_popescu: bitcoins, you will note, are never destroyed. neiuther is gold.
jurov: yes that's the protocol that must be agreed upon
ThickAsThieves: (bitcoin and the WoT)
mircea_popescu: <ThickAsThieves> i have a feeling though, this theory will end up distilling into one that already exists << kinda cxurious about this myself.
ThickAsThieves: if the WoT is decentralized, and has verification methods, signing, identities, etc, and bitcoin also does, they start to converge in their features
mircea_popescu: <ThickAsThieves> bitcoins being the medium, blockchain the gazette, mining the forum? << it's a very limited economy at that, but i guess so.
ThickAsThieves: is the gazette also an economy?
ThickAsThieves: well just use the WoT for reference
ThickAsThieves: as in the gazette now wants to be decentalized, like bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: it's interesting to me to see how much the 3 separate elements would/could function as economies themselves, and how their traits might converge
ThickAsThieves: and we do have a source for extra-info, the bitcoin software
ThickAsThieves: [16:26] <+jurov> we need extra-blockchain information to assess them /// do we? each address may function as a user/reputation
ThickAsThieves: it only requires communicating the actions punishable
ThickAsThieves: (note i'm taking this position for sake of the debate, i have no conclusion)
jurov: you need karpeles' head on the pike plus public record what he did
jurov: you won't get useful info whether to trust gox from only some "mtgox" tag
jurov: we need extra-blockchain information to assess them
Naphex: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html
ThickAsThieves: is the gazette itself also one? could it be?
ThickAsThieves: or whether it's a hammer at all
ThickAsThieves: like the Sun example
ThickAsThieves: i'm merely trying to see whether Bitcoin would qualify as another echo to apply it to, not whether it fits a perfect example
jurov: unless everyone agrees on special protocol for the O_RETURN text
ThickAsThieves: jurov, also the blockchain does allow storage of text
jurov: but it reserve the right to decide. even tiberiusiv had some coinbr volume
chetty: ThickAsThieves, yup, nothing new under the sun. But this version has less trash attached
ThickAsThieves: i have a feeling though, this theory will end up distilling into one that already exists
ThickAsThieves: if the theory can be applied to the Sun and elements, surely applying it to the Bitcoin system isn't absurd
jurov: bounce you saw they just openly snatched vkontakte?
bounce: haven't really paid attention to exactly what putin said in response to snowden, but them russkies don't appear to engage in dragnet-and-store type surveillance. they know very well who they're after and they're good at it, if not very subtle.
jurov: i understood the gazette as transaction history *with human sematics*
jurov: how is blockchain the gazette?
bounce: lucky this isn't -otc then eh
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-99228 you gotta read this srsly i'm creaming my pants over here.
bounce: https://coinfloor.co.uk/team says mark lamb, obi nwosu, amadeo pellicce, and "the team" (among them james "nefario" mccarthy as "senior developer")
chetty: thanks MP, yeah bummer I miss all the fun
chetty: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/vkontakte-founder-durov-flees-russia-with-no-plans-to-return/498715.html
mircea_popescu: bounce lol. who the fuck is coinfloor again
only: unless there is a free alternative
bounce: then again, if it's p2p, and now you get to pay someone else for the privilege of hosting the service yourself, er, why'd you use the app at all?
bounce: then do so. :-)
only: "bounce: there's also the revenue model. who'll benefit? thence, who'll build the thing?" - can't one hard code an escrow commission into a p2p app?
dexX7: the lol tribunal is so many dimensions less complex than "real" cases so i'm not sure, if it's possible to draw conclusions based on that
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: that article really tears the coin apart...gets a little weird in places, but makes REALLY good points
mircea_popescu: fluffypony yeah, only one case. i suspect now i built it the wrong way,
mircea_popescu: fluffypony it's actually a measure of their thing failing. in the sense they can't pass off the scamcoin fast enough for their dump-and-dillute engine to actually extract enough value out of the environment to keep the ball rolling.
fluffypony: didn't the rota only have 1 case?
dexX7: afaik the lol tribunal works quite well and reduced toxic player behavior greatly
fluffypony: " 75% of the total number of all Dogecoins are held by 0.75% of investors AND this inequity has been INCREASING"
Naphex: and its filled with the funniest things ever.
Naphex: the game actually set up a community tribunal
mircea_popescu: <only> ThickAsThieves: as long as the 3rd party can be anyone, isn't it enough? << definitely not.
jborkl: Now, the company's critics have fresh ammunition because of this same executive. A federal judge in Kansas has ruled that the man in question, Sonny Vleisides, violated the terms of his probation in the lottery scam case. As a result, Vleisides probationpreviously slated to end in September 2013will now continue for another two years.
ThickAsThieves: the market
ThickAsThieves: well that raises another point, if it's really decentralized, how is it moderated?
only: not to mention the kiddie porn
ThickAsThieves: they'd also need to provide same security and privacy to any host of the pieces of the system
ThickAsThieves: but i havent seen their method
ThickAsThieves: which is where their plan is most likely to fail
ThickAsThieves: and then ensuring security and privacy
ThickAsThieves: it would involve dentralizing the software and content
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user benkay to user only: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=benkay&dest=only | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=only | Rated since: Mon Feb 17 18:33:39 2014
ThickAsThieves: we hadnt discussed the overall decentralizing of a marketplace as a bad thing
jurov: yes. but it tihnk the numbers are BS
benkay: jurov this thing'd be a radiative collector then?
ThickAsThieves: decntralization would be distributing the risk, not necessarily randomizing it
only: ThickAsThieves: as long as the 3rd party can be anyone, isn't it enough?
ThickAsThieves: wouldnt you rather have one person that is good at it, than 50 that suck or are ill actors?
Naphex: for the lulz
bounce: to some people "decentralised" is a buzzword. "it must be decentralised!" -- yeah, sure. leaving aside the "how" for a moment (you did think that one through, didn't you?), there's the "then what?" as in how'd you use that in practice? did you just go from a single point of failure to N of those? how does that make the situation better? what if something goes wrong, someone rips you off, et cetera?
only: so decentralizing a marketplace is another shitty pipe dream?
ozbot: A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
ThickAsThieves: just pay them more
ThickAsThieves: well they have private disupte resolution
ThickAsThieves: after that i'd have questions about privacy over the system
ThickAsThieves: well according to the Popescu Theory of Economics, DarkMarket is missing at least a public forum
ThickAsThieves: haha darkwallet gets a bsod during the presentation
ThickAsThieves: the context is more around calming people down when they get all angry about welfare exploiters and such
ThickAsThieves: The life a man leads is punishment enough.
mircea_popescu: people are like their worst fucking punishments
ThickAsThieves: it's the taaki-est
mircea_popescu: is it the first and biggest ?
ThickAsThieves: DarkMarket is a decentralised P2P marketplace which cannot be shut down. It can be joined by anyone and in many respects it looks rather mature, with identity and reputation rankings, seller pages, multisig escrow, private messaging and privacy features.
ThickAsThieves: it's funny how maidsafe will no longer accept mastercoins, the very platform they chose
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: the maidsafe address
ThickAsThieves: i could provide a tip address after the fact or such, but no payment would be required
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: I'd love some, can I reimburse you for them?
fluffypony: he had such high hopes for the project
gribble: Bitcoin prices, Bitcoin inflexibility pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea ...: <http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/>; Strategic superiority, a saga pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: <http://trilema.com/2012/strategic-superiority-a-saga/>; The Ukranian Trilemma - Canadian International Council: <http://opencanada.org/features/the-think-tank/comments (1 more message)
benkay: early bitcoin post, talking about the 30B MPEx fee.
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mrstickball to user mrstickball: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 3 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mrstickball&dest=mrstickball | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=mrstickball | Rated since: Fri Jul 5 18:09:54 2013
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mrstickball to user mrstickblal: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mrstickball&dest=mrstickblal | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=mrstickblal | Rated since: never
gribble: (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
benkay: did pLambert ever sort out the signature of that testament?
fluffypony: at least, with the domains I registered today I had to
ThickAsThieves: it already has no other purpose
ThickAsThieves: lol, you have to actually tick a box on the opt out page https://www.att.com/ecpnioptout/InitiateCPNIForm.action
mircea_popescu: so now trust is created that's not wot-based. so in a sense old people are attacking the wot through being... stupid.
mircea_popescu: the problem here is that people interact with an entity calling itself at&t and using a non-gribble method of authing.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony only one way to verify it is them.
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: maybe the WoT should allow rating someone unknown based on their public GPG key, if it is known?
ThickAsThieves: it says so right on the caption
benkay: hey so i have my conjectures but how the hell does this work: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-drinking-water-out-of-thin-air-180950399/ ?
mircea_popescu: (and the fact good names aren't being squatted to fuck amazes me, and it is a testament to the fundamental economic ineptitude of geeks)
ThickAsThieves: the chronicles didnt require a king to auth
mircea_popescu: the wot already has a massive zooke triangle problem
ThickAsThieves: so i can negrate them?
ThickAsThieves: should i be able to add someone to the WoT myself
ThickAsThieves: ATT sends me email about some privacy shiz and says "To allow AT&T to use your CPNI, no further action is required. "
ThickAsThieves: what's the password? what.
mircea_popescu: "are you in the no?" "yes"
benkay: the know?
benkay: "are you in the no?"
mircea_popescu: benkay in the batt.
benkay: "let's try this again. does anyone in the wot know you?"
benkay: "no, are you in the wot?"
benkay: "the what?"
benkay: "the wot"?
mircea_popescu: i'm making urmom a better gazelle than the wot ever was, bish.
mircea_popescu: the truth being that this shit's so bleedin' advanced ... we are without words.
fluffypony: let's call it the Bitcoin Social Network instead :-P
ThickAsThieves: the Trust part leads to noobs using it wrong
mircea_popescu: the trouble is that wot is a horrible name, as it's not OF TRUST in the obvious sense, but in the other one. and it'd seem to discuss the actual web, rather than its notation.
mircea_popescu: it definitely fits the crime...
fluffypony: there
ThickAsThieves: and you are the dicstionary
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well... so maybe the definition is broken you know ?
ThickAsThieves: whether you want to twist a positive rating into being a punishment seems to me, another thing
ThickAsThieves: but i think you might be choosing the wrong word
mircea_popescu: which is why i'd say punishment is the proper term.
mircea_popescu: punishment is any action upon an agent that happens irrespective of the will of that agent
mircea_popescu: anyway, a "gazette" is this ancient term of "where all the matters of record are published"
ThickAsThieves: then it starts looking like, everything is an economy
mircea_popescu: just like, you know, the original adam smith.
mircea_popescu: this theory is useful in design : how to make better mmorpgs.
mircea_popescu: and he put them back.
mircea_popescu: i CREATED IT because we have an open guild bank where anyone can take out a stack, but you're not supposed to take out the WHOLE stack of things you can use 1-2 of
ThickAsThieves: wait, but is punishment gazette the proper term?
benkay: the takeaway for me from the piketty stuff (if anyone cares) is that claims about how money flows are all hot air and lacking in data.
mircea_popescu: it kinda has it, very rudimentarily, as the kick log say.
benkay: and the economic matters rarely have data on which to base claims.
mircea_popescu: most of the debate dealing with strictly uneconomic matters.
mircea_popescu: not to mention the economization of politics, whereby politics are resisted or promoted on alleged economic grounds.
mircea_popescu: there's been a trend to economize welfare, and that just muddies up everything
mircea_popescu: yeah. the objection there is not so different from tlp's objection that medicalisation of welfare.
ThickAsThieves: "It is important to bear in mind however that Bitcoin is merely a tool, that what we’re truly interested in is creating - for the first time in perhaps as long as two centuries - an actual, working economy"
benkay: good grief it's like everyone disappeared for three days and then came back and pooped it all out on the logs
ThickAsThieves: altough you do already claim it is the first real economy