mircea_popescu: davout so then for all you know this is NOT an actual name.
davout: not the same weiler
davout: mircea_popescu: where did you find this address anyway? the name sounds like a common german one
davout: dotcoin: because you are being asked if you are in fact head of hydrology at the freiburg university
mircea_popescu: dotcoin we're not interested in emailing you as the bitcoin bourse fuckwit. we're interested in emailing you as markus whatever, to verify davout's theory that you're not behaving like the average forum scammer.
davout: dotcoin: "you want email me? contact@bitcoinbourse.eu" <<< that's the wrongest answer you could've come up with
mircea_popescu: because otherwise freiburg uni is like 600 years old.
mircea_popescu: Director of the Chair
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, neither is dr foreskin anonymous
davout: mircea_popescu: no i was thinking more about the fact that he's not anonymous
mircea_popescu: davout maybe his mastery of the english language doesn't permit him to ?
davout: to get back to the dotcoin case, it's slightly weird, because he doesn't display the usual bitcointalk scammer attributes
davout: the sanest attitude in such a case is double: make other readers hear your point, have some fun
davout: but i can perfectly understand that if you perceive the person you are arguing with as intelligent, it makes the arguing exercise different
davout: mircea_popescu: i was actually thinking about the alternative of not getting mad, in either case
mircea_popescu: <davout> pankkake: wait, you're saying you're more inclined to become mad whenever you have respect for the person you argue with ? << this is how it works yes
pankkake: basically I just linked to what others said
davout: i guess what you mean is that you take it more seriously then, amirite?
davout: pankkake: wait, you're saying you're more inclined to become mad whenever you have respect for the person you argue with ?
pankkake: there is actually a lot of things I want to write in, so it will take a while, but I want to write it instead of arguing endlessly / being MAD
jurov: oh and bitcoincard is there too, never dared to try that
kakobrekla: i think the just hates hate
dotcoin: yes read @davout, told here we have p2p like localbitcoins but now we focus on stock exchange, so the french market is free for you enjoy we don't need that
pankkake: yes, I started a blog article. and it should start with "I don't hate altcoins, "hate" is a word used by faggots, I just think they are a fraud"
mircea_popescu: im sure nobody'll be like, "o, we no like pankkake anymoar now", even if they think your idea is dumb
dotcoin: maybe but this is not my problem i am not jealous of other people
dotcoin: it was started as bitcoin exchange, now we focus to going full to bitcoin stock exchange, as we not want competition with the big ones like bc
mircea_popescu: why not 2 days then.
mircea_popescu: either usually takes me > 3 days
dotcoin: there are no bitcoin orders longer than 3 days
jurov: dotcoin, also, how you set a order expiration of 100 days for yourself? why no one other can set it?
davout: in the butt?
mircea_popescu: jurov definitely, i tell you. he's taken a software package intended for a penny auction site and hacked it together. it's so fucking obvious. that pseudo "book" could no other way be explained.
jurov: it's confusing whether it's about bid/ask side
mircea_popescu: <dotcoin> but ok i see there is no serious discussion here << i lolled.
jurov: i am asking, how can you consider the order book usable?
davout: dotcoin: what about bitcoin-central and the french association ?
jurov: dotcoin because you evade the questions
dotcoin: the script kiddies here even have no plan to shut down a wordpress site
davout: kakobrekla: no, fuck that, the laugh is worth it
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes but im not gonna down him because i do not wish to be the evil tyrant
mircea_popescu: http://www.fraud.org/penny-auctions << this is what i mean, for the people following at home.
asciilifeform: afaik that was just the 'are you solvent?' sign guy
mircea_popescu: dotcoin that's also fundamentally broken. if you have friends here, you'll be ok. if you do not, you will fail, even should the entire world come to try and rescue you.
Duffer1: how did it go with the internet police dotcoin?
mircea_popescu: look at that, 1k atc volume. amusingly, it's displaying the bitcoin hoarding behaviours too!
ozbot: Threats to extort and blackmail BCT companies by the user 'pankkake'
mircea_popescu: <dotcoin> but what you critic this time jurov? the order book? last time was the dividends, next time is what ? should i go to your site and start searching << this approach is fundamentally broken. even should you prove everyone else is stupid, that'll still not make you smart.
mircea_popescu: jurov that's how they did it in viking times
kakobrekla: LAST TIME IT WAS THE DIVIDENDS
dotcoin: but what you critic this time jurov? the order book? last time was the dividends, next time is what ? should i go to your site and start searching
Apocalyptic: the "at least" is somehow not shocking
pankkake: darov is just the child of jurov and davout
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla on special dj keyboards, yes they are.
kakobrekla: d and j are right next to each other
mircea_popescu: don't tell me he types the names by hand
jurov: dotcoin, they are welcome to view it
benkay: dotcoin: is there a way to see what paper is trading on bourse without signing up?
davout: Apocalyptic: my daughter pretends the cushions are castle walls
mircea_popescu: dotcoin you mean about the vat again or just in general ?
Apocalyptic: davout, he's pretending to run one, however misconstructed damaged the thingis
Apocalyptic: he became agressive after jurov mentionned going to the AMF
jurov: then i published it on my blog
Apocalyptic: <davout> dotcoin: at least i have to give you credit for coming all the way to -assets // he's done it before
mircea_popescu: "I've disagreed with pankkake before (on the subject of altcoins) and he's called me an idiot and I've told him he's wrong. " << look at that!
davout: dotcoin: at least i have to give you credit for coming all the way to -assets
kakobrekla: <dotcoin> but don't accuse me of scam as there is no scam on bitcoin bourse guys < dont you owe btc to jurov ?
gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.
dotcoin: but don't accuse me of scam as there is no scam on bitcoin bourse guys
mircea_popescu: jurov i don't know the guy
davout: dotcoin: also, had you actually watched the video you're screenshotting, you'd have seen i'm in essence telling him he's full of shit, in 2011
mircea_popescu: and gigavps. and a ton of other scammers.
dotcoin: you search at other people to fuck them but you are the friend of must fucking scamer in the world
dotcoin: why you not tell the people your relation to karpeles
kakobrekla: who is raping the logs!?
mircea_popescu: o you two know each other ?
jurov: and who's the tit here?
pankkake: still with the wrong identity
mircea_popescu: the public rails on weiler ?
mircea_popescu: "If you not like the PHP coding we can't help you, but we are sure our system is very professional programmed."
mircea_popescu: suddenl;y turned around and made it into a btc exchange because why the fuck not, he's competent and smart and brilliant. or, in the words of today's equivalent,
mircea_popescu: a yeah, right you are, burnside was derping on ltc with this thing, then when nefario closed down abruptly for unspecified legal reasons one week after declaring he's legally 100% not illegal at the conference where he scammed clueless rms into showing up
nanotube: kakobrekla: long time ago. google killed their api.
mircea_popescu: do they abuse preteens ?
davout: he told me to shut up and eat my soup, the moral of the story is that you're better off keeping your assets in bitcoin XD
davout: for those who don't speak french, "abus de droit" means that you're "overusing" the law to your advantage, and that, in itself is unlawful
davout: from there, anything becomes possible
davout: look, the french tax code has this concept of "abus de droit"
davout: what i'm saying is that it is not comprised in the set of the things i know about how the law works
mircea_popescu: i am sure, if you go to the chamber of commerce or w/e people gather in paris these days and ask, you will find at least one or two people caught in something of the sort.
davout: not an objection, simply the expression that it didn't fit my experience :)
mircea_popescu: <davout> i *never* heard about such a thing << what's that then ?
davout: i don't object reasoning on the basis that it doesn't fit my experience
mircea_popescu: your objection that it doesn't fit with your experience, unsound as it may be in theory, is also easily dispatched in practice.
davout: that was the implied question :-)
mircea_popescu: davout the implication is that particular malfunctions of a broken system are only visible at a certain height, nothing else
mircea_popescu: principle of magical economy : only use the really powerful delusionist spells when really needed.
mircea_popescu: yes, but you never spent a million on consel in any fiscal year either.
mircea_popescu: no, you pay them what they ask you. then they make the paperwork read that's what you were supposed to pay.
davout: so you just pay them some random amount ?
mircea_popescu: this is a game-theoretic asset : they won't say. maybe they are. maybe they aren't. what do you want ?
mircea_popescu: davout it's simpler than that : they don't have to be specific before they finish the investigation
davout: if they weren't investigating about that, they were investigating about fraud, and you don't get out such an investigation by simply throwing money at them
mircea_popescu: you are starting to understand bureaucracy, the legal system and how states work.
davout: so what were they investigating about in the first place if it wasn't "calculate exactly how we're being owed" ???
mircea_popescu: pankkake: "Chinese-American, he was born in Africa; his entrepreneurial parents ran a flip-flop factory in the Ivory Coast" << for some reason that immediately sent me to http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/nigerian-scammers.jpg
mircea_popescu: davout because if w/e they calculated is owed is paid, then they have no further grounds to investigate.
mircea_popescu: once that sort of shit starts, you start publishing the lolz.
mircea_popescu: one of the many many COUNTLESS reasons a businessman absolutely must have a well read blog at his disposal.
jurov: but it was the same kind of investigation
davout: mircea_popescu: how can i pay him if my assets are frozen during the investigation?
mircea_popescu: davout he has a perverse incentive : he knows that you're a sucker, and would rather pay him than wait.
davout: but from what you say, the taxman, if he has a claim against the company has an actual incentive to speed things up, assuming he's paying himself *after* his investigation, which would make sense in a somewhat sane system
mircea_popescu: but considering the state of the dockets, all over the "civilised" world, a < billion corp stands zero chance to be even noticed.
jurov: in fact, the opposite thing happened
davout: aah, i guess the part i missed was that it was a taxman led investigation
davout: the way i understand it, is that there's two cases, either the bankruptcy is considered "normal", or "fraudulent", in the former it's liquidator, in the latter it's liquidator + investigation
mircea_popescu: dude you're refusing to see what im saying. again from the top.
mircea_popescu: and waits for the da to finish its investigation.
davout: in france, as far as i know, if a company is not solvent, there *must* be a liquidator appointed
davout: in france, there's usually a "suit" if the bankruptcy is fraudulent, a liquidation process goes in front of a judge as well tho, but it's not really a lawsuit
mircea_popescu: that's the particular fissure of a kafkaesque nature i wish to draw your attention to.
mircea_popescu: and you can't touch them. and everyone waits.
mircea_popescu: the situation you find yourself in, practically, is that the 100 euro assets are now locked up, and deteriorating, under court "supervision"
mircea_popescu: it's not of the same nature as everyone else's (those are resolved part of the civil suit)
mircea_popescu: the taxman;'s objection is priviledged
davout: someone may object (taxman or whoever else) may object that the bankruptcy was fraudulent and that there was deliberate actions made to diminish the assets, in this case the general manager can get prosecuted personnally
jurov: and ask you whatever they want... that can take time
davout: to me it works in the following way
mircea_popescu: this is a civil suit. the judge receives an objection from the state's tax attorney, stating that they consider they're owed five eurocents in fines.
mircea_popescu: at this point general manager or w/e party the executive power is vested in is legally required to file for bankruptcy or supervised reorganisation/reconstitution/we
mircea_popescu: suppose there's company x. it owes 110 euros and has assets of 100 euros. right ?
mircea_popescu: civil suit (ie, the bankruptcy) is suspended during penal proceedings
mircea_popescu: davout well, you file for chapter 11 or w/e equivalent, the da intervenes and objects
davout: mircea_popescu: never heard about that, the taxman is a privileged creditor for sure, but how would that work?
mircea_popescu: davout im not even sure how it works there, but if memory serves you can't even bankruptcy if you've been fined
Apocalyptic: like the PEA taxation recently
davout: at least, if that ever happens and we get fined into nothingness, the customer funds are safe because they don't sit on our corp. accts
mircea_popescu: yes yes i get that, there isn't a third reich because you live in the poznan forest, rather than on the warta field
davout: our defense here is simply "we never touch the money", we're simply mandated to trigger the move between accounts :D
mircea_popescu: this, of course, in stark contrast with the 100% non illegal certs better people are getting.
mircea_popescu: such stuff has been seen in romania, poland, the czech republic and if memory serves the uk
davout: mircea_popescu: but one thing to keep in mind is that contrary to all the other exchanges, we never actually touch the fiat being moved aroud, me merely trigger a transfer between accounts that do not belong to us legally
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't count on them not doing something such as changing the tax code mid exercise and then insisting you comply.
davout: mircea_popescu: didn't really think about it this way, if the corp. selling coins on BC gets audited they'd be the one getting in trouble, i hear your point though
mircea_popescu: because, logically, they will wish to be paid, and will lean on whatever is available.
mircea_popescu: davout i mean as a corporation selling to natural persons, you may or may not end up in hot water with whatever local tax authority if you don't give them a vat.
mircea_popescu: HeySteve: re: bitcoin foundation again, members are resigning: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=603590.0 << lmao you know the BF's desperate for attention when they're actually begging for people disgusted by them to actually leave comments on their otherwise dead forum
mircea_popescu: they have to also act the tax man, and collect and pay ~for you~ the vat ~you owe~ for the government's convenience.
mircea_popescu: which is why when you buy a pencil in a shop, the vat shows up on your bill. even if you should have paid it, the shop is not legally allowed to just sell you the pencil
mircea_popescu: davout: it's a non issue for non-corporate customers, but it might technically be one for corporate ones << im not so sure about that. afaik, most jurisdictions require the provider to collect vat for the customer.
mircea_popescu: jurov: or it's rather F.BUTTCO ? < i would suspect it'd be X.BUTTCO
davout: i would only be half-surprised if the actual business plan turns out to be an investment in feincoin
fluffypony: it's impossible because running away with them is not a loss in the truest sense of the word
jurov: FTFY: the doctor must have certificate issued by lawyer
mircea_popescu: >I found a way to generate Bitcoins even faster then every Miner, in a legal way. the Methode i use whas checked by local Lawyer and is 100% non illegal. << in general, the mark of a trustworthy doctor or medicine is that it promises to cure 100% whatever health issue you may have, and similarly the mark of competent legal counsel is that they issue 100% non illegalcy certifications
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> imo i dont hink btc atm will catch on on the long run << obviously not. but let the circus of irrelevancy have their fun.
mircea_popescu: "MPEx is a scam, and this is one of his shells. The owner of MPEx has multiple aliases that he posts boosting his own image. The first post "Peter Lambert" posted on this thread, was a copy paste they have posted on other security threads before."
mircea_popescu: i'd rather fuck an oven mit.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony that's right, this is the channel of the minority of people into bitcoin that aren't also pedos.
kakobrekla: i would fell for 'thermos'
jurov: HeySteve: it boiled down to "we must show them"
HeySteve: what does the guy's opinion have to do with ability to run a business?
pankkake: I don't think anyone cared for real, I only learned about who was on the board with the various scandals
davout: pankkake: "and I'd rather have a child rapist than a litecoiner anyway" <<< lmao
kakobrekla: does it make a difference if you piss or shit in the sewage pankkake ?
pankkake: and I'd rather have a child rapist than a litecoiner anyway
fluffypony: pankkake: we call them slip-slops...but we call traffic lights "robots" so South African English isn't much to go on
kakobrekla: so theres that.
kakobrekla: anyway, Luke-Jr now has a buddy to talk to and exchange the various graphic materials in the foundation
pankkake: "Chinese-American, he was born in Africa; his entrepreneurial parents ran a flip-flop factory in the Ivory Coast"
davout: khersonus: BC is not directly involved in X.EUR, however, I do use it to systematically hedge all X.EUR trades, so the tax/fee link is only indirect
HeySteve: fluffypony, for me it is. if I ever write on the foundation, I'll use those lovely scam labels
HeySteve: at least bobby lee isn't another american
pankkake: as if this guy was the real issue. and what about that booby lee fucker?
khersonus: davout: so for your X.EUR future on mpex, if someone wanted EUR though b-c, should bitcoin-central be paying VAT on that? (because as far as I can tell, there's no fee, so the tax wouldn't come from the fee)
fluffypony: if the pedophile resigns
pankkake: meh, caring about the children.
HeySteve: yeah check the foundation forum
fluffypony: someone has come out and said they'll go up to Platinum
kakobrekla: they now have a dedicated "post your resignation here" thread
HeySteve: they're not even trying any more
HeySteve: this brock guy is the last straw
kakobrekla: lol foundation self owned themselfs
davout: we have the same kind of thing in france with the "auto-entrepreneur" setup, the way it works though, is that if you go over the threshold you lose the AE status and are required to create a different type of corp. which in practice results in the same thing as jurov
davout: khersonus: like jurov points out, in some specific corporation setups there are thresholds for applicability
Apocalyptic: jurov, I believe it's the running year btw
davout: the answer is "technically, probably yes, but that's not bitcoin-central's problem"
davout: "should someone on one side of the trade technically pay vat?" <<< you're the first one to actually make this very good comment
davout: VAT applies on our fee, so on 0.59% charged there's a part that goes in the pocket of the motherland
davout: it's your money deposited in EUR, in your name, and you give us a mandate to move it around, the mandate is the trick
khersonus: davout: so if I sell/buy on bitcoin-central, should someone on one side of the trade technically pay vat?
Apocalyptic: they are just providing the service, in exchange for the fee, so the VAT is levied on that
davout: you're mandating us, and pay us to simply shuffle money around these accounts
davout: basically the way it works is that you have an account in BTC
Apocalyptic: on the fees
khersonus: davout: from bitcoin-central TOS "The PLATFORM allows the CUSTOMER to submit TRADE ORDERS for the purchase or sale of Bitcoins" << probably a stupid question, but how does VAT not apply to that?
davout: gotta love the "100% non illegal" thing
davout: kakobrekla: "sounds like some 80' computer company" <<< looks like we don't speak the same english
jurov: or it's rather F.BUTTCO ?
kakobrekla: davout the only stock you are ipoing is S.LAUGHING !
jurov: kakobrekla: The tax authority distinguishes between bitcoin and Bitcoin. Wow! I'm so proud of there bureaucrats
fluffypony: "Fein Sender is a part of our mobile app that allows one to display a barcode on your phones screen that anyone can scan using their phone’s camera."
davout: khersonus: if you really want to nitpick you should also add "and not quickly multiply more numbers and broadcast it in such a way that the first broadcast never gets confirmed" :D
fluffypony: that's the kickstarter thing?
davout: for those who missed feincoin, it's worth the five minutes of your time
khersonus: davout: multiplying some numbers, and broadcasting the tx to the network might be nice too
Apocalyptic: seems like they know a thing or two indeed
davout: jurov: wait until the tax administration realizes signing a transaction can perfectly be defined as a "service" :D
jurov: no, the statement he cited said that it is neither goods nor service, so the law does not apply
davout: jurov: interdasting, did the guy tell you the govt actually, and voluntarily simply said "oh ok, we'll waive the tax for you" ?
kakobrekla: >I found a way to generate Bitcoins even faster then every Miner, in a legal way. the Methode i use whas checked by local Lawyer and is 100% non illegal.
Apocalyptic: <fluffypony> I don't know if the Bitcoin ATMs being dropped into Dubai will have lal this AML crap // lol
davout: god help them
fluffypony: I don't know if the Bitcoin ATMs being dropped into Dubai will have lal this AML crap
davout: fluffypony: the US has the advantage of not having VAT, that's why coinbase can work the way it does, and that bitcoin ATMs are actually safer to setup there than in europe
fluffypony neither
davout: fluffypony: bear in mind that i'm not really competent when it comes to regulation in the US, my field of expertise is regulation in europe
davout: fluffypony: is bitcoin defined in the "precious Metals, Stones, or Jewels" category? i believe not
davout: khersonus: no i should absolutely not, because as far as I know european VAT applies on the full amount of sales unless stated otherwise
kakobrekla: imo i dont hink btc atm will catch on on the long run
davout: but that's usually very clearly laid out in the law