ThickAsThieves: then 600
nubbins`: poor guy couldn't even finish his statement over the laughter ;(
nubbins`: !up TheInterocitor
mircea_popescu: nubbins` in some places the crag cat is a real danger to human life
mircea_popescu: no, for the inglischers is, "this is how normal debates work and everyone on reddit agrees."
asciilifeform: or, for the inglischers, 'if ya don't believe this lie is true, ask the blind man, he saw it too'
mircea_popescu: nah that doesn't work either
mircea_popescu: well maybe they're old married couples of sluts.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i wonder if old married couples get that same way, guy hears the condom drawer screech and gets an errection.
ThickAsThieves: i do this whistle pattern whenever i give them treats, if i do it long enough they get all riled up and start smacking others that get too close
ThickAsThieves: we keep the laser pointer in a drawer,
ThickAsThieves: ok but the cat is a predator, isnt its instinct to chase?
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask b00lcrap!~heat@74-47-204-77.dsl1.chtw.wv.frontiernet.net. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user b00lcrap: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=b00lcrap | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=b00lcrap | Rated since: Thu Aug 21 15:29:25 2014
mircea_popescu: same exact thing here. monopoly money is not the same because it's not "in their space"
mircea_popescu: the cat is driven by an attempt to reduce the cognitive load. things that move impredictably draw its attention and require it to spend brainpower. better if they stop moving.
TheInterocitor: No. They have nothing to offer that btc doesn't already do
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves exactly like the cat's reaction to "unapprovable movement"
ThickAsThieves: what would you define the instinct is of hating altcoins? fear of randomness?
mircea_popescu: and so they usually look all confused.
mircea_popescu: speaking oif such instinct. i dunno if you've ever had dogs, but they're beyond funny when virgin. because while the dog's instinct absolutely drives him to try and mount the bitch, the dog's brain itself doesn't comprehend wtf is happening
ThickAsThieves: whether i learned or my ancestor did, who cares
ThickAsThieves: i say it's all the same shit
ThickAsThieves: i can see if you dont value them
ThickAsThieves: what's the point in being ANTI-altcoins anyway
TheInterocitor: A fool and his money I suppose. Any money I make in alts just goes to btc. I have little interest in survival of them.
mircea_popescu: once you fix the coins to 21mn tops, everything else can exist in immoderate, endless supply
mircea_popescu: in bitcoin ? you're kidding. there's been what, 6 or 7 jesuses ? at least 5 or so satoshis...
TheInterocitor: There can be only one
mircea_popescu: no bother.
mircea_popescu: from what i hear from people trying such things, it rarely works in the sense of comprehension, but almost always works in the sense of making the op stfu.
assbot: The woes of Altcoin, or why there is no such thing as “cryptocurrencies” pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
TheInterocitor: http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies
mircea_popescu: TheInterocitor did it work ?
TheInterocitor: btw mircea_popescu I used one of your blog posts as a STFU in an argument the other day
ThickAsThieves: are there channels where people speak in code?
mircea_popescu: nubbins` i do shoot emails to the more promising publishers.
ThickAsThieves: and that was how the MPEx Tablet Game Guild Began
ThickAsThieves: basically you can fault havelock's quality, and there is where you can remove trust
nubbins`: they sign up the shittest funds in the universe and chew up all the listing fees to unspecified "expenses", ensuring the investorubes don't get any of it
TheInterocitor: not like I have a substantial amount there
ThickAsThieves: they*
nubbins`: they let funds delist whenever they please, converting "shares" into "we'll send you a slip of paper"
nubbins`: let's see: their website was an insecure piece of shit with massive security holes that literally allowed third parties to drain accounts -- UNTIL LAST SUMMER
nubbins`: TheInterocitor you trust havelock?
nubbins`: if the idiot still has hooks in it, though..
mircea_popescu: so... that way, bad capital. the money of idiots is not useful.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves had first hand experience, among many others.
mircea_popescu: everyone else tried to build businesses out of allowing idiots in. they all failed
mircea_popescu: lemme tell you how. i build a number of businesses in btc that relied on not dealing with idiots. they're still here, and worth whatever hundred million.
ThickAsThieves: just not the same life
BlueMeanie4: the first and primary benefit is much more capital available
mircea_popescu: let them say things about their business, making hamburgers or filling tyres or w/e it is.
nubbins`: surely you're not suggesting that one should have enough money to purchase the thing one is purchasing
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 why should poor people have something to say about property and the dispositon thereof ?
TheInterocitor: As they should be
nubbins`: what other type of de... ah, too slow
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 yes, there are. really.
BlueMeanie4: there are no choices really
mircea_popescu: so who're you TheInterocitor ?
BlueMeanie4: no idea what youre talking about but the idea here is to give people more control and choice over where there money goes
nubbins`: !up TheInterocitor
mircea_popescu: man. suppose you're the sort of klutz that thinks "chicago is cool". i then knowing you think this sell you a house in "chicago" fgor a price twhich reflects your expectation, but in a location that satisfies my cost structure.
BlueMeanie4: and the property is overvalued
mircea_popescu: and instead traverse the fucking wot according to some criteria that make sense to you and invest accordingly, IN PEOPLE ?
mircea_popescu: but regardless of what really happened : there's no way forward. it died, and that's that. bury it and move on, you ain't fixing the corpse.
mircea_popescu: well we all got our stories as to "what really happened". i was merely illustrating the vastness of that area.
BlueMeanie4: youre taking the gonzo highly critical anti-view
mircea_popescu: two decades later, the whole thing's ruined, as it will never get out of an ever increasing black hole of moral hazard
mircea_popescu: the banks noticed hey, free money!
mircea_popescu: what happened is that clinton decided niggers will become whites if they get free houses. they drew up legislation to implement this nonsense.
BlueMeanie4: prior to the invention of such, mortgages were very hard to get
nubbins`: BlueMeanie4: i take raw materials, add value to them, sell them. great, now i've got $x. i can put $x in the hands of walmart and buy 1kg of coffee, or i can put $x in the hands of a business owned by someone who lives here and buy 0.75kg of coffee. sure, with the first option i've got 0.25kg extra coffee, but my city has $(x-y) fewer dollars, where y is an almost-negligible sum.
BlueMeanie4: take the MBAs
BlueMeanie4: but then
BlueMeanie4: and these gains were rationally derived mostly
BlueMeanie4: but what they did see where amazing gains
BlueMeanie4: so most didnt know what they were
BlueMeanie4: they developed these things not very long ago, you might say 198-something maybe they began?
mircea_popescu: the package OF SHIT, mind you.
mircea_popescu: just, some shit splurged out of the package.
mircea_popescu: no, there wasn't "a degrade of quality".
BlueMeanie4: i live in a area that was heavily financed by these MBA mortgages
mircea_popescu: that's an important point for the da to digest, in his personal evolution from smarmy to useful.
mircea_popescu: every now and again a smarmy da walks into a smart judge's chambers with something about "a standard deal" and the judge tells him there's no such thing as "standard deals"
nubbins`: <+BlueMeanie4> thats what the anti-walmartians argument boils down to. they lack the terms to describe what is bothering them, so instead they are stuck paying for overpriced stuff from 'local' people <<< unadulterated gibberish, contains no information
ThickAsThieves: i want the "right" price
mircea_popescu: o brother will you have fun here.
nubbins`: BlueMeanie4 the point flew about six feet above your head
BlueMeanie4: thats what the anti-walmartians argument boils down to. they lack the terms to describe what is bothering them, so instead they are stuck paying for overpriced stuff from 'local' people
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 he sells expensive artwork and shit. not a very good angle there.
nubbins`: i want the best /value/.
mircea_popescu: it ruled an empire, and it was the way to rule an empire, before the very successful french revolution reorganised your mental space for you.
nubbins`: "i want the best price" is the reason why tim horton's is the number one coffee chain in canada
BlueMeanie4: nubbins you dont want the best price?
nubbins`: "i want the best price" is why all the painted lines are worn off the road here two months after they gets sprayed on.
mircea_popescu: it's not a pretty place to live in. even if you do have the ever present, ever oversold hope you will somehow "create immense value" and run off to live in argentina.
BlueMeanie4: this seems to be a tactic you use to avoid addressing either your lack of information on a subject or you willingness to accept various facts
mircea_popescu: and with otherwise-flavoured fanta sold as beer
mircea_popescu: that's how you ended up with "books" being the shittiest thing people will still take as a book, in a neat little package
assbot: Grandma's Sitting in the Corner With a Penis in Her Hand Going "No, No, No, No, No" - The Frogs - YouTube
mircea_popescu: your focus on the price to the detriment of the more important considerations is, again, what sunk the system you grew up with.
BlueMeanie4: and how will i get the best price
BlueMeanie4: i want the best price
mircea_popescu: the thrift is actually the historical point here. economy started its life as an attempt to waste less.
mircea_popescu: in the sense laundromat literally means laundry robot.
mircea_popescu: maximizing the market is not a valid goal of economics any more than maximizing body weight is not a valid goal of medicine.
BlueMeanie4: well for as long as you lack the features i describe, these contracts will have a very limited market
mircea_popescu: we happen to be here to reverse all of it and more, but it's irrelevant which way it goes really. obviously the cock going in hurts about as much as it hurts going out, so to speak.
mircea_popescu: the funny part being, of course, that they actually DID redesign the whole universe, and everything you imagine was always fixed and the case was purely and shamelessly invented then. then history rewritten to support this inane theory.
BlueMeanie4: some of these bitcoin people are reminiscint of the french revolution. for a few weeks they thought they could completely redesign the whole universe. I believe they wanted to change the number of days in a week.
mircea_popescu: this is like, bitcoin will fuck it up the ass with a steel girder and everyone has a short and vanishing opportunity to change sides.
mircea_popescu: this isn't like... o hey, bitcoin is trying to persuade the old order.
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 pretend you're some exponent of the iroquis. everything you said works just as well.
mircea_popescu: gonna sign them ?
BlueMeanie4: what do the Iroquois have to do with this
BlueMeanie4: are we about to go into tour de force of rousseuian noble savage theory
mircea_popescu: kinda like we care about how the iroquis "state capitol" used to work.
ThickAsThieves: one thing i know about finance markets, it's no one really gets to say how they work
mircea_popescu: X-Rob and enjoiny every inch of the process i bet :D
BlueMeanie4: you system as far as i udnerstand it does not allwo for the transfer of obligations
BlueMeanie4: i buy them for 200k
BlueMeanie4: people market those kind of collection notes all the time
hanbot enjoyed this "debate"; i call it "let's read the convo via the logs and guess what mp's answers will be, then hit refresh and score ourselves"
gribble: The expected generation output, at 1700000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 23844670038.8, is 0.0358545988072 BTC per day and 0.00149394161697 BTC per hour.
mircea_popescu: they have not. just, you never used any math and you never had much to say about economics.
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 well you gotta read to see the operable ideas.
mircea_popescu: but one point is important : the world you know has failed. this will require a pound of flesh out of everyone involved. whether it comes in the form of the intellectual humiliation where you say "we were wrong and the actual voodoo people at the table" and move on, or the actual physical humiliation that goes with being on the defeated side...
mircea_popescu: well, to round the circle : i find it unfortunate that so many otherwise intelligent fellows are so fixated on their various habituations that they refuse to adapt and become useful for the future.
BlueMeanie4: i find it unfortunate that so many are bogged down with these voodoo economic ideas when they should be building better machinery to deliver real functions
mircea_popescu: these "financial markets" aren't a single thing, and they only work as you describe them when they don't actually work.
mircea_popescu: so look : you can sit in a car, and derive from the experiene of sitting there some idea as to how the car works.
BlueMeanie4: well i dont really bear the burden of proof, these are facts of financial markets as they exist
BlueMeanie4: a 20 egg note is not worth 20 eggs, yes, it's up to the debtor to MAKE them worth 20 eggs. see how this works?
BlueMeanie4: ThickAsTheives- actually those kind of collection notes have a market
mircea_popescu: Morgan: "Before money or property or anything else. Money cannot buy it...because a man I do not trust could not get money from me on all the bonds in Christendom."
mircea_popescu: Morgan: "No sir. The first thing is character."
mircea_popescu: you are making a mistake jpm warned against. allow me to quote the old gentleman.
BlueMeanie4: USDs are valuable because people, generally, think that the US govt will repay
BlueMeanie4: and thats the value of currency
BlueMeanie4: right so the margin between the actual eggs and my risk of actually getting them is what is the value of the note
BlueMeanie4: or rather at most 20 eggs
BlueMeanie4: its worth at least 20 eggs in the future
mircea_popescu: otherwise, debt notes are older than coins, have been in use in china since forever.
mircea_popescu: that's how it goes in the book your learned on. this is called didacticism : the sad habit of people to recreate history in terms of their preferred systematic approach.
BlueMeanie4: no it isn't - quite the opposite using gold or other commodities for money were a feature of primitive societies- you seem to have it backward
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 this is like saying vishnu is the basic thing giving the world movement.
BlueMeanie4: debt is the basic thing that gives money substance
assbot: The problem of too much money pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: ;;google the problem of too much money
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 the ethos is quite well defined.
BlueMeanie4: theres nothing wrong with securitization, it's just like debt based money- a school of morons believes it is evil by some undefined ethos
mircea_popescu: well, get in the wot, im sure you won't sink here.
nubbins`: no, the first one was better :D
b00lcrap: well they tell me its a sinking shit
mircea_popescu: they didn't fail because of securitization directly, but nevertheless they will fail unavoidably for reasons rooted in why that particular kind of securitization works that particular way.
mircea_popescu: the argument as presented is purely semantical.
BlueMeanie4: they are not inherently destructive
BlueMeanie4: while thats a valid point, i dont think they failed BECAUSE of securitization altough these new methods did destablize
mircea_popescu: go ahead. it ain't happening here, and it won't survive the decade.
BlueMeanie4: no thats not exactly the same
mircea_popescu: same principles, of course, but changes the engineer's life entirely.
mircea_popescu: i do. the problem is that you'd like for shorthand that's accepted in an old, meanwhile abandoned system to work unioversally.
BlueMeanie4: youve got the basic contract mechanism, now you need securitizatino tools
mircea_popescu: but the reason you can't is because that's a fucktarded system made by lazy apes that doesn't work
BlueMeanie4: WOT only looks at the person issueing and while this isn't useless, it is possible to make much better systems
mircea_popescu: they're actually different things.
mircea_popescu: but for no reasons to do with the actual risk.
BlueMeanie4: these are facts of financial markets
mircea_popescu: and yes, i would say that they are equally likely to be delivered.
mircea_popescu: that's the wrong question. is it equally likely the store will deliver my order is the right question.
BlueMeanie4: made by the same person
BlueMeanie4: the point is that different classes of credit are valuable to different classes of people
mircea_popescu: so then what exactly do you mean by "one dimensional"
gribble: What the WoT is for, how it works and how to use it. pe Trilema - Un ...: <http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/>; World of Tanks official forum: <http://forum.worldoftanks.com/>; WoT 9.x Guide for Better FPS/Graphic Optimization 3.0 - Support ...: <http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/349743-wot-9x-guide-for-better-fpsgraphic- (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: ;;google what the wot is for
assbot: What the WoT is for, how it works and how to use it. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: ;;google how the wot works
hanbot: thestringpuller: hanbot: was that a goodfella's reference? << yepper.
BlueMeanie4: well you WOT is one-dimensional. say you were to describe what the credit is FOR, ie. you want to finance a software project. then your market opens up, there are investors out there who invest in such things.
jborkl: Mircea, if I need credit for the next 3 days will my WOT suffice?
BlueMeanie4: but they know what class of credit you are in
BlueMeanie4: the bankers no longer know who you are
BlueMeanie4: well part of the problem here is how to catalog the *offerings* for these instrumetns so I can easily invest or market them
BlueMeanie4: and there are MASSIVE outstanding instruments that most believe will collapse
mircea_popescu: someone wants to cast a vote in the wonderous world of finance, he'd better demonstrate either intelligence or the ability to retain counsel.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` it's actually one of the best ways to get in the wot, fully paid future delivery contracts with someone already in. should be safe enough if dealing with a heavyweight for both parties.
BlueMeanie4: this is part of the problem, MARKETING is the big challenge for these sorts of instruments
BlueMeanie4: well want to know how the controls work
mircea_popescu: everything else went to shit, satoshi, mtgox, all the previous things that "were" bitcoin. we're still here.
mircea_popescu: been around for years, what's another weekend.
BlueMeanie4: hopefully you guys will be around here then
mircea_popescu: not probably, they actually were.
BlueMeanie4: and the first contracts were probably marriage contracts
mircea_popescu digs up wherever he said that something can either be decentralized or systematic, not both.
mircea_popescu: we can't, because a) you're not in the wot so no we, and b) we already have.
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4: so how do buy options/futures? << probably your best bet atm is otc. get in the wot, identify a trustworthy cp, sign a contract.
mircea_popescu: http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/seal-steals-fish-fisherman-boat-1382810646V.gif <<< ahahaha epic.
mircea_popescu: HE's supposed to be the meanie here.
nubbins`: there are never no options