mircea_popescu: in all the bad ways.
ThickAsThieves: the margin and futures scene is heating up tho
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves and even without the major incentive of gaming a large options operation
mircea_popescu: as to trusted humans, read up on fixing, as a pricing procedure. it's been explained in the logs a year ago, too
mircea_popescu: the problem of trust is a very long and sensitive chain. creating a 99% functional chain still doesn't create a functional chain.
mircea_popescu: kolinko> quick question re: trusted data feeds what's the problem with deciding that << you know what wash trading is ?
nubbins`: depends who they lose em to
mircea_popescu: idiots losing their btc ohldings is a net plus for society.
mircea_popescu: <ThickAsThieves> i suppose itd just be redistribution of whatever actuall btc were in the systems << bingo.
kolinko: arbitrage/human interventions work in the real world
ThickAsThieves: people wanna do things like circuit-breakers, and curating the data somehow, it's all shit imo
kolinko: or letting trusted humans solve the issue? or a requierement for both parties to figure out the agreement?
ThickAsThieves: you gonna dictate the mkt now?
kolinko: a failsafe rule for removal that one exchange from the computation?
ThickAsThieves: any notable movement on any of the 4 or so top exchanges will cause movement on the rest
punkman: and the bot is still suspended
mike_c: and what do you do when the biggest exchange goes apeshit and has a price that is 50% different than the others for weeks?
kolinko: thick: but isn't that a matter of a better averaging algorithm construction? e.g. if one of the exchanges is far away, we're suspending the feed until situation resolves (would obviously need to be more elaborate)
kolinko: quick question re: trusted data feeds. is the problem generally in the api/site potentially getting hacked, or the algorithm for a computation of one being suspectible to manipulation? what's the problem with deciding that the btc/usd price is an average of btc-e, bitstamp & kraken, each adjusted for volume?
punkman: passing the bad doesn't make it disappear
ThickAsThieves: all i'm saying is if BTCT didnt close i woulda sold them shits!
ThickAsThieves: i suppose itd just be redistribution of whatever actuall btc were in the systems
ThickAsThieves: as in if bf and btct werent shut down by USG, the lie may have played out to less loss
ThickAsThieves: i wonder if more loss was caused by gov influence to shut down btc exchsnges, than if they remainded open
mircea_popescu: but people generally don't want to believe asshole "single points of failure", because decentralized wisdom tells them "it works just fine"
ThickAsThieves: i never intended to hold the bonds long term, it was just a risky trade. btct closed while in the process of selling em off...
mircea_popescu: or maybe the uk could be forced to pay for having swindled the general public with pointless "women too" bullshit ?
mircea_popescu: maybe you could get his "woman of the year in buziness" trophy ?
ThickAsThieves: unsure whether legal pursuit would be worth it
mircea_popescu: isn't this the "uk busineswoman" of great repute that i "viciously attacked" for "no good reason" last year ?
ThickAsThieves: CM's debts, including the 'Bond'. It is therefore possible that 'bondholders' may seek to take legal action against CM's 'shareholders', including yourself, to seek to recover that debt. However, if 'bondholders' accept the restructure plan proposed below, that risk might be mitigated."
ThickAsThieves: get this: "CM was described as a "virtual company” by LTC-Global (and accordingly referred to as such in the CM Business Plan). However, as a matter of English law, CM may be considered a general partnership. If that is the case, then the 'shareholders' of CM - which includes yourself - would all be considered partners. As partners, they would all be jointly and severally liable for
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves buncha sexploitations of the 70s, they're all pretty much the same thing.
assbot: Movie Ramble: Ilsa She Wolf of the SS.
asciilifeform: (not the 'genuine article,' clearly, but in the spirit of 'ilsa, she-wolf of auschwitz' for germans)
asciilifeform: 'I turn the page on the excuse sheet. "SOLAR FLARES" stares out at me. I'd better read up on that.'
ThickAsThieves: <+mircea_popescu> anyway, ThickAsThieves The Strategy of Conflict, old book. /// will check it out
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves imagine if they also had tits.
ThickAsThieves: house, nurturing powers like overgrown weeds that now appear to make up the whole lawn.
ThickAsThieves: <+mircea_popescu> kolinko no. the system can break itself, too. it doesn't need a mustachioed antropomorphised enemy. /// glad to see you say so, it's a point often missed in many circumstances. for example, some want to paint USG as a hyper conspiracy and assume all its evil/scammy actions are fully intentional. More likely, it just evolved to be a broken shit in all corners of its
fluffypony: xmj: had to pause it to do other stuff, will pick it up again tomorrow
mircea_popescu: o look who's there.
mats_cd03: penny ford, the negress?
mircea_popescu: there's no etuiqueety, we're assholes.
kolinko: (what's the etiquette if I'm going afk? !down to assbot ? )
assbot: Prime Number Hide-and-Seek: How the RSA Cipher Works
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller brilliantly played, sir.
mircea_popescu: the chan is old enough to have had nefario derping et all, but im not sure that's avail on website
mircea_popescu: consider the discussion with rithm re guruvan earlier.
mircea_popescu: thing is when you rate, you force everyone to evaluate things. some people precache, and do it on the spot, some others will do it over time.
mats_cd03: oh wait... i think i'm referencing the wrong thing actually. seppeku.
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 he has a point, look at all the great discussion he caused.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Drunk rating, he tripped the paranoia alarms
kolinko: "Sucking at something is the first step to becoming sorta good at something" -- Jake The Dog
mats_cd03: 'Shut the fuck up Donny, you're out of your element.'
RagnarDanneskjol: great book - here's pdf: http://nazbol.net/library/authors/Thomas%20Schelling/The%20Strategy%20of%20Conflict.pdf
mircea_popescu: doubt you read it, prolly exactly what you're looking for re the btcxe thing
mircea_popescu: anyway, ThickAsThieves The Strategy of Conflict, old book.
mircea_popescu: meh. guy's just jotting down random thoughts. they are pretty broken, but can't judge one on that. anyway.
assbot: GavinTech: Bit-thereum
kolinko: did you read a piece by Gavin on bit-thereum? http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2014/06/bit-thereum.html - he's arguing for a similar thing
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 nu-uh, there's ioncube!
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones let me guess, the situation is that calls you don't really know how to price and so don't really want to sell and puts you can price perfectly well and nobody can afford ?
mats_cd03: https://www.iacr.org/archive/crypto2001/21390001.pdf an oldie but still good. 'on the impossibility of obfuscating programs.'
mircea_popescu: no this is starting to sound better and better. i hope they make a mars lander.
asciilifeform: for them to be unable to conspire with eachother << what'll you do? search their rectums for radios, then build each into own oubliette ?
RagnarDanneskjol: better to go with british monarchy - at least you can find their parents if all goes to hell
kolinko: you wouldn't really need to trust them to handle funds, just for them to be unable to conspire with eachother
punkman: stepping up the troll game?
kolinko: no trust in the central authority / list creator. you'd see some folks with a high WoT rating, some bitcointalk hero members, some known businesspeople, and of course 8 of them would be us senators.
mats_cd03: unless i have a handler that knows where they live, who their friends are, where their assets are kept, trusting that many individuals seems a tricky proposition. trusting just one is hard enough
mircea_popescu: punkman you're starting to sound like the girls :D
kolinko: and that all of them are quite unlikely to collude
kolinko: mats: you'd check the list one by one, and you'd determine that each one of them seems reasonable
mircea_popescu: code in such a way you won't be ashamed to show what you've written to your kids or the woman that may potentially carry them.
kolinko: I'm not saying this is the best possible solution, only that it might be the most practical one
mircea_popescu: "the limit some idiots put in is 15 so now i'm going to make it part of my brain" ? what is wrong with you!
jurov: now you think the price was not fair
mircea_popescu: srsly, the "multisig" thing has an arbitrary 15 limit ?
mircea_popescu: holy shit what is wrong with these derps.
kolinko: if you have 100 nobody will be bother to independently verify the list. 5 is too few. also, 15 is a technical limit - the max number of sigs for bitcoin multisig wallet is 15
mircea_popescu: one for each form of the trinity ?
mircea_popescu: three times the five talmudic pillars ?
kolinko: mats_cd03 didn't know about that. any link to the story? (or I can google)
mircea_popescu: kolinko no. the system can break itself, too. it doesn't need a mustachioed antropomorphised enemy.
kolinko: :) well, to really break the system you'd need 8 of 15 conspire without the other 7 discovering that
mircea_popescu: like you knolw, two girls are a better fuck than just one. provided they're not insane.
kolinko: it's still more secure than trusting a single party to provide the price, isn't it?
mircea_popescu: the thing that annoys me most about contemporaneity is that somehow it got convinced nothing pre ww2 ever happened. nfi why. so many excellent implementations of good solutions seem to just vanish in the general knowledge.
jurov: but then that's different thing than some deciding oracle
kolinko: i.e. each of the 15 operators provides the btc price, and the average is chosen after throwing away the extremes
mircea_popescu: the most expensive variant is to get actual sex and actual food.
kolinko: well, the most expensive variant would be to rely on humans
mircea_popescu: jurov honestly, if you actually had 15 people that were there assembled for merit, not just random derpage
jurov: how are these 15 people work on untrustworthy data from exchanges?
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones the eur future is actually even cheaper, arguably.
jurov: kolinko we did not solve the exercise price yet (which was mpoe's undoing)
kolinko: bitbet is centralised, and the business would have to rely on bitbet not failing, right?
mircea_popescu: or i guess by trading the x.eur delivered future, if you can actually take delivery.
The20YearIRCloud: kol - it wouldn't be hard as long as you had a option to withdraw the USD
mircea_popescu: kolinko either on otc or maybe make bitbet bets.
kolinko: such a business would require option trading on the backend. but how could it trade options securely, as of today?
kolinko: let's say that I wanted to build a business that relies on options... a web wallet that maintains the users' bitcoin balance stable in relation to usd (e.g. I put $100 worth of btc into the wallet, and after a year I'm almost guaranteed to be able to withdraw $100, regardless of bitcoin price)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: tango piece: did you take the creature home as a pet ?
The20YearIRCloud: mircea_popescu: re : keynesians - they still seem to be popular in the US. Alot worship at the temple
ThickAsThieves: so at first i was frustrated at this 1bTCXE trading challenge because basically what it is is they gave everyone a fake account with half BTC / half USD credits and people are set wild to trade the assets. However, there is no tie to the real market so it's mostly a psychological/economical experiment. In this case, is there theory on how such a market would play out?
mircea_popescu: but really, there doesn't seem to be that much demand for options once the darkpool and bitbet respectively take the slack.
mircea_popescu: imo the avenue to this standardisation is, once moloko delivers the registrar of deeds, and if indeed we want to do a lot of option trade,
kolinko: what I'm really trying to figure out is whether people would be willing to try such a system
ThickAsThieves: these are just system design factors
mircea_popescu: nah, it can actually be answered in theory too. just, it gets esoteric quickly.
kolinko: as for people being bothered into doing this - it's a valid question, but one that can only be answered by trying it in practice
mircea_popescu: a system that either works as intended or not at all is the holy grail of unbreakability.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves but see, if you delete the program, you can't say you've broken the code.
mircea_popescu: this is the main advantage of an overlord that the decentralize fanboys tend to ignore. if you have a good overlord, the system is unbreakable period.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter : the spf system is not breakable.
mircea_popescu: but this also happens to be the definition of a sybil vulnerability.
kolinko: you're nitpicking. what I meant is that it doesn't matter who created the list and how. what matters is whether the list really contains gpg keys of the people, and whether the people on the list want to participate
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves nah, he's just trying to solve a fundamental problem through implementation and got blindsided by a theoretical exposition of it.
mircea_popescu: and anyway, if "you" create it then you're just counting from 1 to 15.
ThickAsThieves: why are we making lists and giving things to 15 people? i guess i better read the logs, is this OT or something?
kolinko: in other words - you don't trust the list of 15 people because the list of 14 people said that you should trust it. you trust the list because you can see who's on it, and they look trustworthy.
kolinko: you can create the list of 15 all at once. people wouldn't trust the list because they saw it being created. they trust the list, because they can review it one by one, and see that all the individuals are indeed trustworthy
mircea_popescu: this is fundamental mathematics we're discussing here.
mircea_popescu: kolinko if you have a process to go from 1 party to two, then you have a sybil problem. and to have 15 you necessarily must have had that process.
mircea_popescu: if god gave us 15 pilars then that'd be that
mircea_popescu: what if one wants to join ? were they 8 at some point ? 6 ?
mircea_popescu: kolinko no, because how do you get the 15 parties ?
kolinko: collution between parties is another matter of course
mircea_popescu: people tend to easily forget what identity means. here it is : =. every time you're using an equality sign, numerical, logical or otherwise you're relying on identity. cuz that's what it is.
kolinko: what I meant is - if you have a system of 15 parties, each one of them signing messages with their own gpg keys, that can be quite secure against the sybil attack. the attacker would have to steal keys of 8 independent parties.
ThickAsThieves: just sometimes the price aint what it seems
mircea_popescu: now, if you want to go back and get diddled by THE SAME GUY AS LAST TIME, you're in for it.
kolinko: jurov: the idea is that you agree on an algorithm beforehand, and everyone uses the same one
mircea_popescu: lotta trusted parties involved there. lulz.
jurov: kolinko it currently does not happen, that's the problem
mircea_popescu: so they won't be arsed.
mircea_popescu: and the arsed problem is not something to brush aside. the better your sybil protection, the more expensive their pointless expense.
kolinko: the same way it happens now with centralised systems?
mircea_popescu: you are wrong in the first. sybil attacks are a problem on all systems that rely on identity to any degree.
kolinko: as for why would be they arsed - for provision/payment of course
mircea_popescu: these aren't simple problems, and they're unsimple for fundamental reasons, it's not a matter of implementation.
mircea_popescu: sybil attacks, and why would they be arsed to care about your needs.
kolinko: well, but if we had a panel of 15 trustworthy individuals, with a consensus of more than 50% of them required to release the fund
mircea_popescu: the problem with this approach is that if they're to be trusted they're sops by definition, and vice-versa.
kolinko: the idea for the distributed contract was that if I want to build a business that relies on options, such a business shouldn't rely on a single individual/company
kolinko: mircea: I'll read the misc in a sec. as for your volume - I know it well - I'm your user since 2012 iirc
kolinko: mircea_popescu - confirmation that I'm the appcodes kolinko: twitter.com/kolinko
RagnarDanneskjol: also, 'trustworthy' is rather subjective
mircea_popescu: kolinko http://trilema.com/2014/mpoe-february-2014-statement/ read the misc section.
kolinko: (the idea is that a smart contract would be protected by a set of trustworthy individuals - no reliance on a single point of failure)
mircea_popescu: if you prove that i'll rate you, then you can self voice
mircea_popescu: (you the appcodes kolinko ?)
nubbins`: what's the word for when something is made to look like a human?
assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer
nubbins`: another one here somewhere
fluffypony: nubbins`: at least they're being useful and helping with cleaning
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-09-2014#825979 << this is like the first intelligent thing i've seen xmj say, but it is impressive.
mircea_popescu: lions in the fucking forest. huzzah for all teh lernin'.
assbot: Judy Garland: Lions and tigers and bears! Oh my! (The Wizard Of Oz, 1939) - YouTube
mircea_popescu: i can arrive at a formulation of what the op thinks that i can integrate, it just takes an op that can answer questions for long enough :D
mircea_popescu: so basically you're saying the technical tradeoff in question isn' treally trading anything worth the menton.
fluffypony: for the same attack
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: well Bitcoin's solution to the problem is to use SHA2
mircea_popescu: fluffypony ok, so if we accept this avenue exists, then a blacklisting scheme would not logically be expected to resolve it, just move the problem.
fluffypony: in the 0.03 seconds it takes the peer to verify the block you won't even have completed the handshake to send another block
mircea_popescu: t know yet if the block is any good ?
mircea_popescu: but in the interval where people stil don
mircea_popescu: can i craft blocks and announce them so that the entire fucking network ends up graylisting each other
fluffypony: when I graylist you then you have to reconnect to me from a new peer and submit a bad block
fluffypony: in other words
mircea_popescu: but it does work i nthe sense of, graylist dos.
fluffypony: well that's what I'm saying - the block flooding DoS doesn't work
fluffypony: if you just want to DDoS them from a bandwidth perspective there are easier ways like LOIC
mircea_popescu: seems like moving the goalpost, it's still a dos
fluffypony: the block flooding DoS attack doesn't work with Monero, at least not that we've been able to simulate
mircea_popescu: "This coin's enthusiasts contribute to the applied aspects of the CryptoNote technology. It has been launched as a fork of Bytecoin in April 2014. Bitmonero/Monero was subject to a quarrel among the community members on the choice of name. Nevertheless, its contribution is valuable to CryptoNotes popularization. Moreover, it has the fastest block generation speed of 1 minute."
jurov: with the friend's miner i mean
mircea_popescu: (this based on history of human tech, the speed of difussion of tech inovations as a function of their added efficiency. for instance the iron plow was about 7-8x more efficient than the shit it replaced, and it took over practically in the same generation. meanwhile longbows were not 2x more effectual over cataphracts, and they took about a century to take over)
fluffypony: if you're really interested in the inner workings
mircea_popescu: but i would have suspected 1.5x ish is more the range where it could be borne economically
mircea_popescu: and i guess if 5x is the best so far then it's the best so far, and that's what it is
fluffypony: punkman: it's not the only thing it uses
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: yes - but that's a capex cost, we're discussing the opex cost. At some point in the future when there actually are ASICs I suppose a ratio could be shown that includes the amortised cost of the hardware over time or something
mircea_popescu: that's the problem with the human species : that because we're monkeys, which means we use young men as basically building material
mircea_popescu: which explains exactly the adaptive value of idiocy in large groups.
mircea_popescu: what i mean is, i'm a kid with a computer, i have to pay $200 for a new video card, and each watt gives me 1 thing. this other kid pays $500 for a consumer asic, each watt gives him... 5 things. the price of a thing will reflect this, going to ~1/4 the price of a watt, making me able to buy a lot more things for my $200 directly than i'd get mining ?
dub: mircea_popescu: there's also the problem of motivating a guy holding a stick to charge at muskets
fluffypony: which is most of the modern ones
fluffypony: CPUs perform well if they have AES-NI
mircea_popescu: fluffypony: ASIC will likely outperform a GPU, but I'm guessing it will be in the ~5x better range, not huge. << if this is per watt, wouldn't it be quite huge ?
mircea_popescu: punkman: I made a bitcent trading XMR, I r tradar nao! << dare i ask what xmr is or would that spoil the whole trader thing.
mircea_popescu: dub: where these perchance, other primitave cultures faced with certain defeat in the face of a technilogically advanced imperial invasion << quite. just like the forum retards, the general response of the primitive mind to "o boy, this guy's so much better than you, better learn how to suck cock" is "lalala i can't hear anything"
fluffypony: if it's that guy then he's in Switzerland
assbot: I would very much enjoy reading Mircea Popescu's reply to the letter in this post: http://t.co/MndDYtNb9w < you can imagine the SPANK!
xmj: that's, like, the crashcourse in FreeBSD port maintainership. :)
xmj: before you submit, try `make check-plist` to see if there's anything missing in pkg-plist, and `make package` to see if there's anything that is in pkg-plist that's not actually built into the package
xmj: once you're done with that you can assign it to me and i'll take it from there
xmj: then you file a bug with bugzilla -- https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Ports%20Tree
fluffypony: I mean, the USE_GITHUB stuff means that I really only need 5 lines, and it builds out the box
fluffypony: ok so I'm trying to create the Makefile
fluffypony: not all the time
punkman: fluffypony: was reading that blogpost again, got an idea. Someone should come up with quirky PoW, and manufacture a hardware miner before launching the coin. Then they slowly ramp up the hashrate, start selling the hardware when profits level off.
fluffypony: "Note that GPUs *do* outperform CPUs, of course -- it's just that it's only a factor of two or three. Which is pretty remarkable. And an ASIC will likely outperform a GPU, but I'm guessing it will be in the ~5x better range, not huge."
fluffypony: xmj: once I'm done fixing tests and I've committed the changes to master I will
fluffypony: xmj: it's done, it compiles and works, the only thing I'm fighting with are some stupid oddities in the testing code
xmj: fluffypony: how are you getting along with the FreeBSD port? :)
fluffypony: we're not at the upper bound of GPU performance, although we're reasonably close
fluffypony: for the moment yes
fluffypony: and in that respect CryptoNight achieves its stated goal of reducing the performance gap between CPUs, GPUs, and ASICs
punkman: right, aren't the CPUs better in that regard?
fluffypony: punkman: indeed - although the GPU miners are starting to ramp up a bit
fluffypony: bitmonero == monero, the guy that launched it wanted merged mining and other bullshit, the community voted against it, he tried to put it in anyway, so we forked it away from him into Monero
punkman: what's with all these clones
punkman: fluffypony: there was some pool site that had XMR, but it linked to some bitmonero thing
Apocalyptic: how's monero these days ?
RagnarDanneskjol: erroneous in that the reasons cited have no basis in reality. but good point
RagnarDanneskjol: ;;rate BingoBoingo -1 erroneous negrating under the influence
BingoBoingo: RagnarDanneskjol: Much of the present irrelevant doubt, as opposed to relevant doubt connects to harvest of this irrelevant shit\
dub: where these perchance, other primitave cultures faced with certain defeat in the face of a technilogically advanced imperial invasion