bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not?
asciilifeform: xmj: in this particular space, the 'bigger system' often consists of a horde of idiots operating small systems.
moriarty: asciilifeform, a lot of the bugs arise typically not from the main objectives by the side-work in getting simple I/O right, etc, a lot of which can really be templated
asciilifeform: xmj: more fun - ferret out simplistic bots and rape them.
moriarty: asciilifeform, i see the points made there, make it high level enough that you don't need to get bogged down by the side-work in the midst of pursuing your main objectives
asciilifeform always wonders, on first meeting a trading bot enthusiast, whether he considers basic game theory and contemplates counterpoint rape-bot answers to his strategies.
moriarty: daybyter, and of course i assume a full-fledged basic mathematical suite to support doing whatever i want to the model
moriarty: daybyter, interesting, i was thinking of perhaps less specific but at the same time more atomic than simple moving averages
asciilifeform: moriarty: the 'support of the community' - that is, mainstream 'programmer culture' - is pure intellectual poison. the farther from it - the better.
moriarty: asciilifeform, all the things one takes for granted, the support from community at large is non-existent in a corporate setting :) so what was trivial in popular languages had to be polished up, e.g. good documentation and example codes
moriarty: asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work
decimation: (he used the u so you would understand)
asciilifeform: moriarty: in point of fact, any serious industrial use of a lisp proceeds by first creating just such a language for the system in question, and then programming in it.
nubbins` breathes small sighof relief
moriarty: and i must say that the beauty of functional languages is that you get to attain that rare accomplishment of writing a bug-free code in the first round
nubbins`: sweet, fresh OS X install and my keys survived the round trip
moriarty: but don't let me get your feathers ruffled :P
moriarty: asciilifeform, sure, Prolog works the same way too :)
asciilifeform: moriarty - lisp on x86 pc is 'lisp' in much the same way 'holy roman empire' is the roman empire.
TheNewDeal: There we go
asciilifeform has been writing an entire blog on the subject, since '07, and doesn't see the need to continue pasting it here...
assbot: Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine
asciilifeform: both of these are quite their own animals, and most users would make a face if you called it 'a lisp' - but they are as much 'a lisp' as newton and leibniz both had the 'calculus.'
asciilifeform: bounce: Forth is an example of 'lisp' re-invented by an outsider. there is another example - 'refal'. (soviet)
asciilifeform: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-navrozov-moments.html << linked from above, mr mold's explanation (written presumably before the chumpatron re-swallowed him, this time - for good.)
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 << by popular demand of readers, explanation of what is the scam, and why.
asciilifeform: pseudo-mathematics, all of it.
bounce: what, type theory?
asciilifeform: functional << nope. the non-homoiconic languages - do not make it possible.
asciilifeform: moriarty: rather, it is about the kind of interaction with the machine that it makes possible.
moriarty: what are the advantages of lisp over haskell for instance?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the death of smbx corp. is almost an entire field of scholarship..
mircea_popescu: bounce it is a strange argument on the face, but perhaps the idea is such a hard problem can only be conveniently breached at this angle. much like satellites aren't launched from tiera del fuego
mircea_popescu: how much did they actually spend ?
mircea_popescu: so the idea is, the tool required (os/stack/machine) has no industrial utility and without convincing the industry it needs ai to sponsor the thing, there's never going to be either ?
assbot: Loper OS » Kalman Reti, the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines.
mircea_popescu: wh ythe sbx machine specifically ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems a weak reason tbh. i mean, there are good lisp implementations today, or not ?
asciilifeform: (^ above is a terrible oversimplification. lm was not simply about language, but the entire interface.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the final doom of smbx corp. was sealed by 'ai winter.' in turn, the demise of the lm ensured that there would be no 'spring' - because carrying on the work in a non-homoiconic language is much like attempting algebra with roman digits.
moriarty: xmj, and it's hard to get such people lurking on the internet :) not impossible, but rare
moriarty: xmj, you get to the point much quicker with someone more experienced, more knowledgeable
moriarty: xmj, or rate of dissemination rather
moriarty: xmj, everybody is at various stages of knowledge, you gain help no matter who you ask along that spectrum, the key distinguishing feature though is rate of absorption
mircea_popescu: but im asking, how are they integrated ?
xmj: moriarty: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
asciilifeform: moriarty: born - and died - with the lisp machine.
moriarty: asciilifeform, it used to be an active area of investigation in the seventies
moriarty: asciilifeform, and they didn't inform you that hard AI was a largely abandoned endeavour
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess ima publish, save myself the effort next time i feel inclined to explore teh ircworld.
decimation: asciilifeform: in the end it doesn't matter if the gasenwagen is driven by robot/ai or communist bureaucrats
asciilifeform: i used to be rather into the idea of 'hard ai' before realized that we don't even know how to build a computer.
asciilifeform: http://lesswrong.com/user/asciilifeform/overview << me derping on their site back when had time/inclination
moriarty: but that's just the ancap bit of me speaking
moriarty: decimation, i never saw the point in taxation being mandatory
moriarty: decimation, at least the latter is voluntary
moriarty: they can pretty much make or break your work, no laughing matter
decimation: the former being generally honest enough to admit to his scam
moriarty: decimation, unfortunately whenever money comes into the picture, it tilts the balance of power in the favour of the funder
asciilifeform: the fact that i - ever - have to actually stop and explain word 'homoiconic' is proof that 'getting to' use a lisp is not enough.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the guy you mention.
decimation: moriarty: didn't you perceive this as a problem, given your previous point about mixing crap with the good?
bounce: moriarty: missing the point though
moriarty: decimation, heh the modern AI researcher uses any language at his disposal
decimation: asciilifeform: the universities that moriarty mentions being peopled with the same bureaucrats seeking grants
moriarty: the benefit of university is underrated, the constant feedback available ensures you minimise your time to develop your skillset sufficiently and deeply for profitable employment
asciilifeform: decimation: you won't. because 'ai winter.' (and you also won't hear many people discuss how such 'winters' are the flip sides of 'summers', bacchanalia of grantsmanship and graft)
moriarty: xmj, without a forum of knowledgeable peers or esteemed academics, you would be hopelessly lost, making lots of mistakes, reading all the crap together with the good stuff, and taking longer to self-develop
moriarty: in fact Theil's proposal would fall under xmj's concept of traps by powers that be :)
bounce: well, you know. formal education isn't always a panacea either. might just end up in a complete dead-end of "knowledge".
moriarty: but Thiel's supposition that people should not bother with formal education and instead open up a company under the auspices of his seed funding is rather self-serving in my opinion
decimation: ultimately they are all patrons of usg and its idiotic currency meddling
moriarty: i think it was great that PayPal has made that clan of people rich, a lot of good things have come out from the founders of PayPal
moriarty: xmj, sure, but let's not discount formal education also as the path to avoid mistakes made by saner individuals in the past
asciilifeform: i'll be impressed when they build something - anything.
moriarty: i honestly believe that under different circumstances, these individuals would have made real progress in society
moriarty: at least formally i have worked in the field of AI and have come across lesswrong in my past
moriarty: if i were feeling benevolent, i should actually sponsor some of them for formal education :) but then neuroscience has something to say about how intellect not developed before a certain age would have the door closed on them at some point
asciilifeform: now mr. y is surrounded by flunkies, and, by some accounts, is fellated (literally) round the clock by harem
moriarty: lesswrong.com typical profile is someone who has fallen between the cracks of society so typically someone without formal education, self-proclaimed didact, home-schooled, etc
asciilifeform: the equivalent of an anti-nuclear activist - but pre-Fermi.
asciilifeform: then he had some sort of nervous break and a bit flipped in his head
asciilifeform: he used to be rather into artificial intelligence - but more from the standpoint of advocacy ('we' (TM) must build working super-intelligent machine, so it can save 'us' (TM)) - but that was pre-2001 or so
moriarty: decimation, economic models are much like scientific models, or any models for that matter, they are inapplicable to reality without an overdose of simplifying assumptions to linearise what would otherwise be a higher dimensionality reality
asciilifeform: there was (and is) a fellow by the name of eliezer yudkowsky. (american, oddly enough.) ingenious demented storyteller.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol they on to you huh
assbot: Logged on 10-06-2014 02:07:49; asciilifeform: (lw is another reddit clone that makes hn, etc. look sane. inhabited by folks terrified of robo-apocalypse. i was drummed out of lw as a 'future genocidal criminal' for... considering resurrecting doug lenat's 'eurisko.')
moriarty: decimation, that's a rather simplistic view
decimation: all these models. here's some real economists discussing how inappicable almost all economic models (sets of assumptions) are to reality: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/09/paul_pfleiderer.html (it's a podcast with transcript mircea!)
moriarty: xmj, so if you have the street smarts to not trust used-car dealers, i hope you do the same for the government or powers that be
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lesswrong << i was de-facto banished there.
moriarty: xmj, if you can't fend yourself against the traps of the powers that be, how do you hope to avoid buying a lemon when faced with a second-hand car dealer
moriarty: xmj, but you won't bite the bait if you had some modicum of intellect
xmj: no, i mean, they're incentivized to stay down
mircea_popescu: except they do it properly. social escort.
decimation: mircea_popescu: then don't eat, if deemed shitty in the subjective opinion of the bureaucrat of the day
moriarty: actually socioeconomic experiments are nothing more than alchemy waiting for sciences to solidify itself; in like sense, macro policies are the precursors to BCIs which would be a far more effective method of tailoring welfare to the individual without any of the leakages present today
decimation: mircea_popescu: you can't, so you put it on display. your job: wash the sidewalk
mircea_popescu: this is a nonsensical object on par with the "foolproof" engineering item.
mircea_popescu: how do you give idiots something to do that hides from reality the fact of their idiocy ?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i assume ironic humour, rather than any attempt to negate oneself ;)
moriarty: lol that's the ancap bit of me speaking perhaps
moriarty: decimation, by the time, that happens, it's a different political party
decimation: yeah, in the us we have h-1b visas
decimation: a slave (unless chained to the wall) will always have some power to rebel
moriarty: decimation, it is an endless regression to inflation, sticky wages eventually adjusting themselves, and formerly poor people made wealthy through minimum income now poor again rendering minimum income ineffetual
xmj: not too cheap, they shouldn't be allowed to save too much.
moriarty: decimation, minimum wage or mandatory employment has the same effect
moriarty: decimation, if you're happy with the status quo enough to not riot, then that's not enslavement of any sort except that of your own volition
moriarty: decimation, but you've taken a ironic stance there, you can't be enslaved to the state and at the same time hold the state hostage with riot threats
decimation: it doesn't take much creativity to imagine ways in which you could employ people such that they are neither a burden to civilized society nor have enough energy to riot
decimation: which makes the state a terrible master
moriarty: it's one of the pernicious problems of mob rule, it converges to a state that pleases the majority, even if the minority in this case happens to be the ones that make more than half of the GDP and contribute tax-wise as well
decimation: moriarty: and the state is more than happy to deliver, in exchange for not rioting
moriarty: mircea_popescu, it's the quintessential Veblen goods
mircea_popescu: there is no "socially"
moriarty: mircea_popescu, the value in the set may be so economically, but socially? you attain more value by going for the unattainable
mircea_popescu: this dovetails neatly with your expectation that you have to spend bitdimes to be in the wot.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, you have to appeal to their emotional side :) and the flip side of that is, you don't even have to spend a dime
mircea_popescu: no. what becomes plain as day is how to interact with the few women nobody can be bothered with, and how to miss out on the value in the set.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, buying them items in hopes to get in their pants would not be very successful, as xmj attested
xmj: couch-sitters? slaves to the states?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, all i'm saying is, once you understand women to be a bag of emotions, rather than logical creatures, their motivations, what it takes to motivate them, becomes plain as day
mircea_popescu: the whole theory is broken. there's no "other plane", and there's no "women" as a one thing.
bounce: you don't like grass? so you're not a cow then.
moriarty: decimation, well, unfortunately as someone who is partial to the ancap way of looking at things, i don't identify with the reframing of couch-sitters as slaves of the state, i see them as enslaving the state though
mircea_popescu: so i sit there and it's like... eating grass.
mircea_popescu: it's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "where's the logs ?" "we don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "so i guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or wot then huh."
assbot: Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
decimation: asciilifeform: some guy bought a 'salvaged Tesla' and did a teardown of the battery pack: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack
moriarty: xmj, there is truth to that, but my motivation is more societal status too :)
mircea_popescu: moriarty http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-mosu-cu-joarda/ << take them there. better off than before ?
xmj: moriarty: you're not, either
decimation: what is a council-house full of couch-sitters other than slaves of the state? with the state being a worthless master?
moriarty: they are bags of emotions
moriarty: xmj, because, pure and simple, they are not logical creatures
xmj: never underestimate the willingness of women to stay in bad/unhealthy relationships
xmj: there can be
moriarty: mircea_popescu, in the confines of a conventional western society today
moriarty: xmj, what i mean is this - females are very articulate in dealmaking, and there is almost no deal in which they conduct themselves, socially or otherwise, that would leave them worse off than before
xmj: that might be the female response
mircea_popescu: moriarty seeing the value in a wot acct yet ? :D
moriarty: xmj, that's quintessentially the female response to the common masculine argument of cockteasers; rephrasing it, it's not that i'm not putting out enough, you're just not good enough
xmj: "The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn't deliver the goods. Teasers are never pleasers; they greedily accept presents to seal a contract and then break it."
mircea_popescu: it's not particularly hard, either, just as long as you comprehend that the "differnet plane" bs is bs, and that there's more variety between different women than between women and men.
moriarty: it's best not to try to understand them
moriarty: i know, but that's what they are :)
moriarty: mircea_popescu, and in not so many words, it's easy to put yourselves in the shoes of a woman, if you imagine them to be first a man, take away reason, and accountability
xmj: "The great thing about sex with whores is the excitement and variety." yeah, well, you could just travel and seduce...
moriarty: xmj, yeah, http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2004/sep/19/features.magazine37 - sums up eloquently the human condition
mircea_popescu: <moriarty> xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime << so now you also gotta read http://trilema.com/2014/how-i-was-wrong-cuckolding-or-a-story-about-sigmas/
mircea_popescu: well maybe they come to daddy.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, they have potential, but are limited by the ability to realise those potential, because of their minority status and not many people defending them really
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lesswrong is filled with people who have fallen between the cracks of society
moriarty: xmj, not a popular opinion either, but hey :)
moriarty: xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime
decimation: mircea_popescu: re: lesswrong they push that 'hard-ai' bullshit pretty hard
xmj: yes them too, sure.
xmj: moriarty: marriage is a way of ensuring betas get laid, it's one of the more controversial claims
bounce: the problem there is essentially "random" justice. that's fairly bad for encouraging people to pick up better habits.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, well that's why all politicians are liars, in order to be a man of the people, you have to ascribe to philosophies you don't truly believe in to win them over, just so you can fuck them over later on, to protect your class, your clan and family
xmj: moriarty: really, sex drive is at the core of male achievement.
moriarty: xmj, i agree, intelligence, beauty, the things that ultimately lead us to do what we want to do through meaningful employment, have lots of meaningless sex with as many beautiful people as possible
decimation: much time and attention in the us is devoted to making sure every last miscreant gets at least 50 chances to do good
mircea_popescu: they just copied me badly.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i can see your proclivities towards the ancap notions
xmj: moriarty: one of the reason that is, is because intelligence is heritable and people cluster around their intelligence
bounce: it's still violence over nipples there
mircea_popescu: seems to me the black guys are already doing it, and that may explain their preeminence over the prude whites.
xmj: moriarty: but do not underestimate the paper
bounce: too bad the us is really too prude for that, though
xmj: so for them it's an incentive to opt out earlier
moriarty: xmj, a signal that is second in importance to the signalling of connections
xmj: signal of intelligence, as education is more costly for the less-intelligent
mircea_popescu: for the simple reason that he's an idiot. what's he going to do ? whine ?
bounce: oh hey, ancient roman patronage practices. would fit the us' crumbling empire elan
moriarty: not that i'm griping about connections and such :P the way i see it, we inherit genes as we do connections
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact, the 51% of which idiots like xmj are part would NEVER overcome the 49% which includes me.
moriarty: because education alone is not the key to gainful employment, it helps if you have strong connections and networking
mircea_popescu: this is so much derpage reflecting the extremely narrow case of where a bunch of people worked with their muscles.
moriarty: but see, if you're elite, then you would have more conniving methods of undermining the other side of society
mircea_popescu: no, they wouldn't.
moriarty: anyway, i think education is one of the nice ways the elites of society has deceived the havenots :) i think xmj earlier pointed out about how the 51% would overthrow the 49%
moriarty: there is truth to that
mircea_popescu: the problem with us noobs is that instead of sucking cock and being humble, they reddit.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, cost of living is high in singapore, so those without the proper education tend to resort to less conducive means to make a living
mircea_popescu: it's just that the parent may not whine as audibly as the child. but you can't rule by whining
moriarty: mircea_popescu, it does not affect the parent as negatively as the offspring, particularly if the parent is not emotionally vulnerable to its offspring :)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
TheNewDeal: ;;later tell TomServo has arrived. I can meet today (9/20) or tomorrow (9/21). Otherwise it's going to be a couple weeks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "i wish they kiled idiots so then they'd be real cheap and i could get them all"
moriarty: mircea_popescu, in short, the motivations of the parents are not entirely aligned with the children
mircea_popescu: under punishment of marginalkising their fruits.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't have been the only boy who wanted a game machine that would physically damage you when you fuck up...
moriarty: so the singaporean model discounts earlier on, individuals that come from more fractious backgrounds, by tiering them very early on
mircea_popescu: and which is why a fundamentally idiotic game model (the platformer, the scroller, etc) were still loads of fun
moriarty: in essence, there are negative externalities based on the draw of the hand, where some individuals never get tested on their fortitude in dealing with familial crises, and others do
mircea_popescu: they instead allow mistakes to be carried forth
moriarty: and the singaporean social experiment assumes implicitly that curveballs are totally within the individual's control
moriarty: although if one wants to be sappy about it, life does throw curveballs at some individuals more than others
bounce: we do a lot better than nature by allowing learning from mistakes and therefore retries
mircea_popescu: moriarty http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/ <. the tl;dr being, don't change after you fucked up. change before.
moriarty: if you're not good enough, you get streamed to what essentially pigeonholes you to the blue-collar stream
mircea_popescu: moriarty you ever read the gpg contracts article ?
moriarty: their entire education system is tiered, with forks occuring after junior school, after high school, and after pre-university
mircea_popescu: whereas the space for individuals is immensely more dense.
moriarty: in singapore, there is no room for change though, there is no automatic pass up the high school ladder, if you fail or do poorly, you get streamlined to the lower education tier
mircea_popescu: because that's the cheapest thing to change.
mircea_popescu: any system that forces change upon the individual is going to win longterm
mircea_popescu: in the 80s romania there used to be about 100 18yo girls a year hanging themselves for having sucked at tests.
bounce: bureaucrazies are heavy but not gravity themselves
moriarty: if you take a highly subscribed course but you are not cream of the crop, then you are assigned a less serious university, and you may harbour fantasies of serendipity working in your favour come working world time, but that wouldn't logically happen
mircea_popescu: moriarty it's not "the governemnt" any more than it's gravity.
moriarty: so the threshold is adjusted based on your choice, your funeral
moriarty: you are given six choices of universities for ideally the same major (you could even mix and match majors but let's take the simpler assumption)