undata: in that there will always be ways to break things, and always a need for fixes
los_pantalones: just heard these guys closed 50mm
undata: asciilifeform: would the "crystalline" form only describe features? this seems to fly in the face of the "provably correct" conversation of the other day
mircea_popescu: why do i keep calling the poor man kuhn
mod6: <+nubbins`> do the java thing and call it Bitcoin 6 << haha
asciilifeform: on anything, hell, univac. kelvin versioning doesn't mean you will never throw the whole thing away. just experesses the concept that code must cool down to pefect crystalline form, rather than accumulating turdacles.
nubbins`: do the java thing and call it Bitcoin 6
asciilifeform: start at temperature, e.g., 500K. then 'cooling'. theoretically 0K means it will -never- be reasonable to change it. ever.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on the c machine tho ?
mircea_popescu: what may perhaps happen is a day when gavin, mike and co finally go full-ethereum
mike_c: 1.0 can be the first version that has no more bitcoincore legacy code in it
assbot: Ubuntu Warty visual theme/Image archive - Geek Feminism Wiki
BingoBoingo: The ubuntu naked people from 4.10 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Ubuntu_Warty_visual_theme/Image_archive
gribble: Tradition!Tradition! - Jewish Gifts and Fine Judaica: <http://www.traditiontradition.com/>; Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw>; Tradition (song) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition_(song)>
mircea_popescu: mike_c think of it strategically. won't it be funny when usgavin is stuck arguing that a) he's forking bitcoin and b) it's the real bitcoin ?
asciilifeform: ditch the fractional versions. 1, 2, 3, infinity. natural numbers.
cazalla: bounce wishes the politicians would show some spine here. take their local passport, wave goodbye, declare them europe-wide persona non grata for all eternity. problem solved. <<< they sorta did that here but cancelled the passports so that they couldn't leave australia and not after
mircea_popescu: mike_c the crocodile that opens maw to let stuff in, then lets water back out is not following toads lead.
mike_c: i would rather use b-a bitcoin v0.1 over derpy bitcoin v0.9
mircea_popescu: the wanna-bes on the outskirts of bitcoin are making baseless claims to a continuity that doesn't exist.
mike_c: exactly, so why follow their lead?
mircea_popescu: mike_c usgavin's crap is the different
nubbins`: i'm sure there must be
nubbins`: this is assuming there are useful bugfixes in 0.7-0.9
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but pillage the whole thing in one go.
bounce: guy got the order right
asciilifeform: first - we pillage. Then - we burn.
mike_c: why the fuck would this project follow in derpy footsteps?
mircea_popescu: or w/e the derps are doing currently.
mircea_popescu: i could see an argument for releasing it as the real 0.9 tho
mike_c: it's not 0.6 rly either
nubbins`: dance into the sunset holding hands
asciilifeform: no sense including turds in first commit << surprisingly, i must disagree. we gotta show the pedigree from classical bitcoind.
mircea_popescu: mixing these two is antidesign.
BingoBoingo: My worry with ECDSA for signing critical things is using the same keypair too many times increases the chances a bad k can enter the mix
bounce: no ugly as fuck crap added to the body, basically. proper integration with email by using its facilities instead of reinventing them, clunkily.
mircea_popescu: wow the oiriginal nubbins!
nubbins`: just clone 0.5.3 into it for now and we can identify what gets chucked from there
nubbins`: someone more familiar with github than I should probably set up the repository
asciilifeform: bounce: re: short & convenient ecdsa keys << 'the easy cheese lives - in the mousetrap.'
mircea_popescu: bounce what'd be the benefit ?
mircea_popescu: okay. i have nfi what happened there, but rolled new dns servers and all seems well ?
bounce: the ecdsa stuff is short enough to fit conveniently in a header or two
bounce: the email signage is clunky. both kinds. all kinds, really.
asciilifeform: bad enough that btc uses ecdsa. i rather wish it were something that could be discouraged, rather than we were to depend yet more on it.
cazalla: mircea_popescu: cazalla by the way, intel sez that the reason you've not heard from sgornick nor will you is that the guy meanwhile figured out i'm involved, and doesn't like me either because i said nigger or cunt at some point in the past. <<< what a fucking cunt
bounce would like bitcoin address-signed mail. if you're going ahead with the signage requirement, lemme see if I can whip up a verifier for that.
asciilifeform: if you can get a signed gibblet in, by land, by sea, by pigeon - and signature is one of the chosen - message is in next broadcast. 'cheap and angry' - like 'mpex' et al.
asciilifeform: i confess that i rather like the mailing list idea. readily convertible to 'apocalyptic' shortwave radio...
kakobrekla: better than ignoring the sender would be making the sender unable to send in the first place.
asciilifeform: i should clarify, not literal +v, incl. 'up' folks. the magic 29 pubkeys.
kakobrekla: just like asciilifeform slaves in the us i must talk to strangers over email :(
FabianB: it only checks the health indicator line for the first proxy (fastest ping proxy), which above was coinbr proxy
jurov: okay, so i'll go make s3 bucket for it. if someone throws terabytes/day on it and makes it expensive for me then we'll see what next
asciilifeform: -- and that way the www site can be 100 percent static.
asciilifeform: i suggest going with whoever had the mailing list idea. emphasize the 'we sign things and so mechanism doesn't matter' aspect.
mike_c: in short order it will be hosting the charter i assume.
kakobrekla: host the real altcoin?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: the cause << lol, berkshire?
bounce: what was that across-the-globe dns thingy again?
mircea_popescu: mike_c no, because they answer me.
mircea_popescu: well, until i hear any better this is neither malicious nor qntra/polimedia ns specific.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I know local host, but didn't qntra.net point there at one point?
mircea_popescu: there's some sort of dns attax at work.
kakobrekla: at least now _we_ know the cause.
BingoBoingo: the 127.0.0.1 may simply be a historical record
BingoBoingo: IP Address 127.0.0.1 - 149,233 other sites hosted on this server per http://whois.domaintools.com/qntra.net
kakobrekla: asciilifeform iirc you mentioned some skin irritation/allergies and the lack of those in ro?
mircea_popescu: mike_c except if the dow continues doing 1-2 percents a day for the next three months.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's a dns issue in progress.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i wonder if his continued purchases as the stock market goes down indicate that the bonds will get axed or that he's out of the loop
mircea_popescu: if it loses the usg bezzle lifeline (wf) it's gonna be "all" rather than "some" tho.
mircea_popescu: with their iron ?
mircea_popescu: so i guess we'll be... sticking it to them ?
undata: "sticking with their icon" captures it
mircea_popescu: yet the berkshire stock is... up. because logics.
mircea_popescu: ko missed, tesco lost 50% yoy, ibm just paid a bn to gut itself. so now it's basically a real estate agent (as previously discussed, in these very logs, before the news hit)
mircea_popescu: But it's not all bad news for Berkshire. Investors are sticking with their icon. Berkshire stock climbed slightly on Monday and Tuesday, and is up more than 17% this year -- far outpacing the broader market. <<< consider this lulz.
mircea_popescu: this is how they went from world empire to belgian suburb.
kakobrekla: yes i understand, i was just checking if there something wrong with the feed when mod6 mentioned 'down'
kakobrekla: -the
mircea_popescu: bounce you mayhap have a point. iirc this vuln was writing past the end tag and adding a 2nd spurious end tag.
bounce: "idiot user" is too easily said. the real problem is lack of education and devs going "oh we'll make the software SMRT so you don't have to think at all!"
asciilifeform: ultimately, looking for vulns in a system that doesn't fit in a head is rather like looking for particular health problems in a fresh corpse.
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biw | Apr 28, 2012 ... biw. A common used phrase on the internet in the Netherlands. It means 'ben ik weer' - 'i'm back'. 'Biw, is er iets mis?' - 'Biw, is there something ...
bounce: similarly with some of the vectors to use shell shock. how does a dns lookup request end up on the server being fed to a bash process, exactly?
mircea_popescu: well yes, idiot user is the vulnerability.
mircea_popescu: pretty sure the paclkage manager handles pics on a routine basis
mircea_popescu: well sure, but the general case is uncommon :D
asciilifeform: in the general case.
mircea_popescu: assbot: NOT OK GOOGLE: Android images can conceal code The Register << steganography strikes again. hard as shit to filter.
kakobrekla: only if they are eaten
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla the dignity of virgins is a metaphysical subject.
mircea_popescu: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nqnZJRUl4zU/TAz29K6wHXI/AAAAAAAADh8/W2G-zn0Sq3Y/s400/Meet+the+Tiger+Dog+Chinese+pet+owners+dye+pets+to+look+like+wild+animals+in+new+craze+1.jpg
kakobrekla: i guess he has the dignity.
asciilifeform: i personally know fine folks who've perelmanned. e.g., al schwartz. i miss them, but understand.
asciilifeform: you can as well not fuck << the perelman solution, yes.
asciilifeform: there we go.
mircea_popescu: if you ended up stranded on the island of ugly women, you WOULD fuck ugly women, until they had some less ugly daughters to fuck
kakobrekla: dunno when the dignity kicks in
asciilifeform: re: x86 << remember the stories of downed pilots dining on insects? that.
asciilifeform: ^ re: the evil addr thing
gribble: start [bitcoin assets wiki]: <http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/>; Why the IRS Is Taxing Bitcoins as an Asset - The Motley Fool: <http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/26/why-the-irs-is-taxing-bitcoins-as-an-asset.aspx>; Bitcoin fund launches - Futures: <http://www.futuresmag.com/2014/09/22/bitcoin-fund-launches>
gribble: How WOT ratings work | Help Center | WOT (Web of Trust): <http://www.mywot.com/en/faq/website/rating-websites>; Why WOT works | WOT (Web of Trust): <http://www.mywot.com/en/support/how-wot-works>; What the WoT is for, how it works and how to use it. pe Trilema - Un ...: <http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/>
mircea_popescu: ;;google what the wot is, how it works and how to use it
bradedwards: the wot?
mircea_popescu: bradedwards that's nice. now get in the wot ?
bradedwards: Hey room, I was told about you all by a friend of mine Mitch Callahan. He showed me Qntra, and I like your approach. Less corporate news, more honest. Less polished, mroe of the harsh truths the community needs to hear. Just wanted to stop by and voice my appreciation and support
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: lol. if all the hatemail i got, on this specific theme, were to be printed, it would be as tall as my leg.
mircea_popescu: never underestimate the importance of crackpot demands.
gribble: RFC 1149 - Standard for the transmission of IP datagrams on avian ...: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149>; IP over Avian Carriers (1149) - Wikipedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers>; RFC1149 avia - Internet FAQ Archives: <http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html>
asciilifeform: bounce: toss them around by carrier pigeon or catapult if you like. if they're signed, they're signed.
mircea_popescu: people need a lot more negativity in their life to be happy and productive and members of society.
gribble: You are now authenticated for user kakobrekla with key 27AF75321F2489E8
mircea_popescu: commenting it to show when it won't work rather than "what you imagine it does" is even more useful.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform commenting the source code is never a bad idea.
asciilifeform: incidentally, reserving signature for 'i approve this message' is braindamaged. should sign with comments like 'this line is ok unless goldbach's conjecture is proven false, then yer phucked' etc.
mircea_popescu: so then say this again later we see ? :D
kakobrekla: all will be same, just you will be pissed at other people
kakobrekla: anyway, some years at the future
mircea_popescu: depends how long it has in the sun
mircea_popescu: it's another to trust it because asciilifeform commited it, and therefore perhaps read it, and it's open source so therefore "billions of eye pairs"
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to trust this rnd function because asciilifeform and 25 others signed on reading it.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> how to do signed commits << the barbarian way. everyone who read a patch file (yes) and is willing to sign under it, signs. this gets posted. whoever wants, can apply the patches to get a merged turdball. << i think this is exactly how it should go.
asciilifeform: how to do signed commits << the barbarian way. everyone who read a patch file (yes) and is willing to sign under it, signs. this gets posted. whoever wants, can apply the patches to get a merged turdball.
jurov: mircea_popescu: but iirc it signs the diff, not just commit message
mircea_popescu: bounce only because people see it in the logs.
jurov: via irc bots! bring the noize!
jurov just snatched therealbitcoin.org/.com . we'll see.
asciilifeform: redo the whole thing in cl in a night already << ask me again in peacetime
mircea_popescu: punkman yeah speaking of all this comotion, any chance we get the deedbot up by fri ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean the source tarballs ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: care to upload a favourite and signed openbsd installer? then we roll tonight.
mircea_popescu: except it should be explicitly exclusive rather than inclusive. "We will NOT work with unqualified third parties, which is to say parties that have not satisfied their log reading and wot presence prequalifications."
bounce: redo the whole thing in cl in a night already
mircea_popescu: certainly the cl is a good antecessor.
asciilifeform: valgrind << will run inside. it attaches to a process. if you want out-of-band (say, kernel diddling) both emulators present 'gdb' interface to the outside, stop cpu, play
mircea_popescu: <mod6> <+ben_vulpes> i've never written a charter, are there good examples out there? << me either, but we can work on it. no sweat. << you've read plenty of mpex contracts, good enough. keep it direct, plain and simp,le.
jurov: vakgrind can use either?
BingoBoingo: I have a feeling the great use of Deedbot will be proclamations of giving a fuck.
asciilifeform: i'll happily take a weekend off to read the rng gibblets, once you lot draft a proclamation of Giving A Fuck
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> i've never written a charter, are there good examples out there? << me either, but we can work on it. no sweat.
asciilifeform: qemu only for builders / paranoiacs. ordinary mortals can use the resulting binaries.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes mod6 so draft a charter, then we can bitch at it. << okay :)
jurov: yes, you can make the qemu image available for reproducible builds, but dunno if to advertise as sop for everyone
mircea_popescu: there HAVE been cases where bitcoin used shitty entropy.
mircea_popescu: and since we're doing this : asciilifeform the one thing you'd be most halpful with would be, look into the god damned rand code/crypto uses thereof.
asciilifeform: how it is better as distributing signed binaries? << iron correspondence btween claimed source and claimed binaries. only one way to achieve this reliably - the one suggested above.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes mod6 so draft a charter, then we can bitch at it.
asciilifeform: even contemplating basic auditability requires a 'capsule' that does not need to milk anything (save mains current) from the outside world, during build setup
mircea_popescu: <bounce> the bitcoin source is actually reasonably portable and doesn't depend on "helpful" stuff like cmake << also true.
mircea_popescu: <jurov> you have to feed it a blockchain to avoid endless waiting? << not like we can't keep an official copy for bootstrapping, or else people who have the patience can just make their own
bounce: so how do the wallets relying on it then ascertain the validity of the chain that instance serves?
mircea_popescu: <bounce> oh, and deceptive. recall that shop that relied on its "accounting" features, then found out the hard way they're useless for keeping track of accounts? << yeah and definitely must fix, but that'll be hard to do on the first pass. an excellent thing to do for first revision tho, take out "labels" implement accounts correctly (or merge coin control in, either way)
asciilifeform: so does someone actually want this for anything? and othernubs has a tree up for comment?
mircea_popescu: <jurov> and if without gui, then it should work fine on cygwin, no? << probably.
ben_vulpes: mod6, othernubs`: i'm behind on logs, but this is amenable.
mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud o happy bday.
bounce: one thing that would be useful but is probably not that trivial to implement is a way to split keeping the chain and keeping the keys
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the term you're looking for is 'non-orthogonality' - ancient lament on my site
mircea_popescu: all this non-unix bs, "gotta make an application to join curl and awk EACH WAY THEY COULD BE JOINED". for fiddy billion "different" aps.
asciilifeform: it builds and then what << damned if i know. then, folks who actually use bitcoin for something, can, presumably, use this one if they so wish
bounce: probably should do multiple image formats for the time being though
mircea_popescu: othernubs`> let others extend. i don't want gpg to incorporate curl libs so it can automatically grab otps from gribs << EXACTLY. do one thing, do it well.
bounce: the bitcoin source is actually reasonably portable and doesn't depend on "helpful" stuff like cmake
asciilifeform: plus, a snapshot of ordinary x86 bsd install 'for qemu' could be booted on a physical machine. the suggested distribution mechanism is just a way to keep the thing reliably portable without having folks dependency-hunt.
mircea_popescu: othernubs`> i don't think gui should be a priority, at all. << prolly not. if they kill the qt branch it would be no loss anyway
jurov: i am fine with qemu... but... it builds and then what?
The20YearIRCloud: mircea_popescu: - I've passed out a few, not to all tenants though due to the baby being born on last rent cycle
asciilifeform: eveveryone please try to grasp why i suggest emulator. this gives a complete self-contained block of bits which reliably builds the apparatus. no external anything, ever.
asciilifeform: 'qemu' is simply a machine emulator (x86, mips, sparc, a few others) - we can use another if someone has a good reason to dislike qemu
bounce: they got derided for that, but really, the feature shouldn't have been in there in the first place. that, or something that actually did what it said it'd do.
bounce: oh, and deceptive. recall that shop that relied on its "accounting" features, then found out the hard way they're useless for keeping track of accounts?
jurov: and if without gui, then it should work fine on cygwin, no?
bounce: it's quite a lot useless if you're trying to build scripts with it, unless they're browser-based in some way
othernubs`: let others extend. i don't want gpg to incorporate curl libs so it can automatically grab otps from gribs
bounce: a workable api would be nice. the current js stuff is... er, open for improvement.
mod6: othernubs`: *nod*
mod6: these are good ideas mike_c.
asciilifeform: (all others - sure, fuk, why not)
asciilifeform: i refuse to build the winblows gui ver., though.
othernubs`: can't wait to see the charter
othernubs`: these rubber keys..
asciilifeform: i'll breathe on it and bless it, promise.
bounce: how much boost is in there anyway?
jurov: heh..wait till they break boost compat
othernubs`: asciilifeform, you okay with yr manuscript elucidating the forthcoming Real Bitcoin 0.6?
othernubs`: i'd recommend the next few minor releases merge as many non-crufty fixes from core as possible, but that's just one man's opinion
mod6: <+othernubs`> mod6 ben_vulpes put this book thing to rest once and for all; merge useful changes from 0.6.3 into 0.5.3 and call that your baseline << agreed.
othernubs`: jurov, the basdard
othernubs`: soldier gets shot, solution is for all other soldiers to get naked
jurov: btcfoundation.org is regged to some "Matthew Campbell","Bryan Thomas Campbell Foundation", Scottsdale, US
othernubs`: canadian forces warning personnel not to wear their uniforms off-base?!
othernubs`: we'll publish the goddamn thing
mircea_popescu: if they even decide to use github
mircea_popescu: what the fuck does it need a website for even.
mircea_popescu: which is my fucking point. this "name and logo" approach to "ideas" is for the birds.
jurov regs therealbitcoinfoundation.org
mircea_popescu: some other scamthing notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: hardly. it'd be the bitcoin foundation. because it's what it is.
mircea_popescu: the us congress calls itself sovereign. anyone can call anything
othernubs`: shit, drop the core and just call it Bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: this is bitcoin. that some other derps are calling their derpage bitcoin too... well who cares.
mircea_popescu: othernubs` there's really no cause to fork the name too. let the gavin-mike-dorkteam run into obscurity and that's that.
mircea_popescu: cazalla by the way, intel sez that the reason you've not heard from sgornick nor will you is that the guy meanwhile figured out i'm involved, and doesn't like me either because i said nigger or cunt at some point in the past.
othernubs`: SatoshiCore: don't run with the chumps
othernubs`: mircea_popescu> draft a charter, then it gets gpg signed and that's it ? i'd donate <<< me too
mircea_popescu: a there we go. cool!
mircea_popescu: tis in the logs, i wonder how it's keyed
bounce: do we have sources on us vs ru jet fighter quality other than herr orlov?
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller yeah, okay, if anyone gets ass-assinated we'll ad-hoc it k ?
bounce: twice the ass
bounce: what'd you port then?
mircea_popescu: ah git. well u dunno man, that's why there's foundation chairs. sort this shit out.
mod6: bounce: noting in C++ that i can point to right this minute in OS space. Mostly C stuff is out there... my freebsd port I created is in C.
bounce: perhaps not a good idea to rely on them. then again, hosting a git repo isn't exactly difficult.
mircea_popescu: how, they ?
bounce: they're starting to bitch about browser versions
jurov: and i was told the code was refactored quite
mircea_popescu: well once they actually get the charter signerd i suppose there's going to be a geethoob
mod6: i've done a fair amount of C++ in the past. a lot more C though, I must admit.
TheNewDeal: ooo the scamcoin foundation?