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asciilifeform: ^ as described there.
gribble: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol: Gregor Kiczales, Jim des ...: <http://www.amazon.com/The-Metaobject-Protocol-Gregor-Kiczales/dp/0262610744>; The Art of the Metaobject Protocol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Metaobject_Protocol>; MetaObject Protocol - Association of Lisp Users: <http://www.alu.org/mop>
bounce doesn't mind OOP. there's some good ideas in there, even if most practitioners didn't get it.
asciilifeform: the crop of junk-oop systems of the 1990s will be tremendously expensive to future folks, who will avoid anything that smacks of 'objects' even when a particular apparatus actually wants to be represented in that shape
Adlai: the paper has nothing to do with OOP, "object" could equally be replaced by "data"
undata: Adlai: I'd rather just have my types over here, and functions over there which use them
Adlai: once upon a time, "object" meant something other than "instance of a class"
undata: should I bother?
Adlai: undata: see the object identity paper
asciilifeform: the 'we embezzled 40 years of grantola from usg to pretend our fourth-rate mathematics is relevant to computing' folks.
asciilifeform: it actually comes from the 'mathemasturbators'
decimation: asciilifeform: it's another symptom of the 'protect the programmer from himself' mentality
asciilifeform: all the immutability you can handle.
undata: decimation: the immutability by default thing is cool
decimation: it's kinda like c++ without the libraries
decimation: herr walker just introduced me to the 'rust' language: http://www.rust-lang.org/
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller because they're cuntable.
jurov: ..Unix folks who are used to seeing the number _or_ a hacked-up crufty version of `ctime' output are truly amazed by this.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller women will eventually run out...
jurov: kakobrekla ponder this bit of wisdom from naggum: it has been instructive to see how people suddenly grasp that a date is always read and written in ISO 8601 format although the machine actually deals with it as a large integer...
undata: thestringpuller: the only way I can tolerate python is by considering it "functional" in the weak sense
asciilifeform: on symbolics box, no less. ran last at the clinton white house, of all places.
asciilifeform: Adlai: funny, because one of the first http stacks was john mallery's - in common lisp.
undata: dumb; at least they knew to stay away from Django
Adlai: it's the fifty-year language, it takes fifty years until the HTTP client gets implemented
asciilifeform: ended up filling all the ancient stereotypes about 'slow'
Adlai: a reddit infested with c.l.l trolls would be interesting... i hope they'd bring along the markov chain idiocy spammers too
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually, the funny part - it sorta did. graham and his 'arc' (which was actually a spray paint over, if i recall, mzscheme)
mircea_popescu: "The Lisp newsgroup, comp.lang.lisp, was upset about the switch that they’re currently planning to write a competitor to reddit in Lisp, to show how right they are or something." << never happened, of course.
decimation: if true, it's probably that their lisp was retarded
bounce: so what were the motivation and benefits of doing that?
Adlai: they must have been using the algol-compatibility subset
bounce: rulemaking, the frontier
mircea_popescu: Over at reddit.com, we rewrote the site from Lisp to Python in the past week. It was pretty much done in one weekend. << lawl.
decimation: eh. every new bureaucrat knows that they can 'embrace and extend' new territory by trying to 'get there first'
Adlai: the gradient of idiocy is far more nuanced, although i guess our dead president is anchoring one end of it
mircea_popescu: Adlai how come everyone's smart yet the concept of stupid exists ?
asciilifeform: (summary. aliens come, they have males, females, and ooloi. the latter run things and are really the only sentients. humans quickly discover that fucking in 3some with ooloi 'adapter' is the only really fun thing.)
Adlai: if there were only one gender, "gender" the concept wouldn't exist
gribble: Oankali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oankali>; Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis Trilogy: An Introduction - Biology: <http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/books/butler1.html>; Imago: Book Three of the Xenogenesis Series (1989): <http://www.literatureandgenetics.org/viewwork.php?id=60>
bounce: no, it wouldn't. wouldn't be women either.
mircea_popescu: it's like if there were only one gender,
bounce: typical how you're both reverting to upper case. who said that had to be the only one available?
mircea_popescu: AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO THE ORIGINAL LISP DISCUNTSION.
mircea_popescu: anyone trying to divorce any of these gets to burn in hell.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh i don't even agree. fuck all this subtlety of amuk idiocy. a character, its encoding, the representation thereof and its numeric value are all THE SAME THING. forever.
decimation: I guess it's not worth worrying about until there's an uptake in deedbot usage
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: All of the letters, entire doctors full of letters.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo we probably should send them some letters too.
asciilifeform: 'A character and its encoding are different concepts. An encoding and its (external) representation are different concepts. An external representation and the numeric values of whatever unit it is made up of are different concepts. By conflating all four concepts into one, Unix has held text processing and computing in general back several decades. This is fairly ironic, since Unix started out as a text proce
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 20:32:15; punkman: deeds are sha256 hashed, hash is b58encoded, b58encoded hashes of all deeds are joined with ",", that string is sha256'd again and that's the private key
decimation: okay, so each bundle has a hash, and the privkey of that bundle is the hash of the list of all past hashes
mircea_popescu: decimation all submitted deeds during one hour go in the same bundle./
decimation: well, if the hash of the bundle is included in the bundle, how did the hash end up in the bundle?
mircea_popescu: you only need to verify the bundle in question
mircea_popescu: knapsacks grow faster than things to put in them!
decimation: one would imagine that keeping the pile of all past deeds would become cumbersome
decimation: is there going to be a 'reset' of the state of his deed 'knapsack' over time?
decimation: abe you were a murderous tyrant who birthed modern usg
Abelincoln: whats up this is abe lincoln talking from the dead yo
decimation: Another reason why chars suck is the endian problem
asciilifeform: in my studies, i'm particularly interested in the 'suck' that no one even notices any more.
decimation: no one has the will/ability to make better software until hardware to use it rolls around
decimation: someone should make a --cccp flag that enables ☭ as the BOM/EOM char for gpg
decimation: like, are they going to send it on a 5-bit teletype?
kakobrekla: better than mtgox, they say.
jurov: they forgot to mention they are amazing
jurov: We are MUCH safer than the other exchanges, each of which has spawned a huge list of horror stories from disgrunted customers.
jurov: That's just basic classical economics. Scammers don't last long in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
jurov: lol on their on "warning" page:
PeterL: what control would the characters have?
bounce: more elegant to invent your own pgp control script complete with glyphs and have it accepted in the unicode standard
asciilifeform is not pleased that these are presently more widely supported than the complete ascii set. but it's a fact.
asciilifeform half-seriously suggests using otherwise worthless unicode chars for pgp control codes. e.g., babylonian cuneiform.
asciilifeform: we're still paying for the ill manners of ill-behaved 1970s 'glass tty' terminals.
jurov: oh that. only if tim berners lee used them for html instead of <>"'
jurov: how does a browser use them?
asciilifeform: better question, what -doesn't- lose them
asciilifeform: jurov: because they get silently snipped by a thousand tools ?
Adlai likes the order
punkman: I got a coin in the works btw
asciilifeform: punkman: they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools << and you'll believe?
pete_dushenski: cazalla they were lost in the hosting changeover and have yet to reappear. they may still or they may not.
cazalla: pete_dushenski, where did the women go btw
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: 'the gears grind slowly but they grind infinitely fine.'
asciilifeform: physical coins << anyone who buys private keys, deserves to pay for the sin
kakobrekla: but they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools < we call the rand() function. twice.
asciilifeform will sign own code (cardano) with 'will die by this' seal. will not sign other folks' code, unless compensated to actually put in the time to play 'reverse underhanded c contest.' << not cheap
punkman: asciilifeform: cazalla: little to gain, plenty to lose << but they could at least vaguely describe their process/tools
cazalla: so really, it's more a question of why buy physical coins to begin with than getting to the point of asking how they generated the private keys used for the priv address inside the coin
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes it's a bit odd that the sidescroll shows up in firefox and safari but not opera. what're you using?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: signing code << can be a hero for the motherland.
asciilifeform: cazalla: is there a genuine security reason for someone to refuse to disclose how they generate entropy << your crystal ball's answer is correct.
kakobrekla: <cazalla> punkman, i thought so. i ask because this is the response i got when asking someone i'm looking at doing a story on "We believe there are a number of safe ways the keys can be generated by offline PCs, but do not disclose exact method(s) chosen for obvious reasons." < if its a bad implementation, you in fact increase attack surface even further
ben_vulpes: but as i said, clobbering the back-button when reading hyperlinked documents is...
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: no-irc << story here. a good fraction of irc bots are malware c&c commanders. hosting firms hate them, they draw fire (from upstream isp)
PeterL: If it is something like "pick a certain digit of pi to start at" then it would be a security breach to expose what you are doing
PeterL: cazella: maybe they are not making good entropy and are embarrased to admit it?
cazalla: punkman, i thought so. i ask because this is the response i got when asking someone i'm looking at doing a story on "We believe there are a number of safe ways the keys can be generated by offline PCs, but do not disclose exact method(s) chosen for obvious reasons."
PeterL: is there a way to change that behavior in your local browser?
cazalla: question if anyone can help - is there a genuine security reason for someone to refuse to disclose how they generate entropy for the private keys contained in their physical bitcoin coin products?
ben_vulpes: vile fucking practice, destroying the browse history.
cazalla: ben_vulpes: didja comment on their blorg? <<< i'll give em time to respond via email first
pete_dushenski: heh twitter lost another $175mn this quarter. such business those guys
pete_dushenski: i understood los_pantalones as saying that people who "ended up on .derp" were traders, not the actual fucking derps!
kakobrekla: i think theres a misunderstanding going on here.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell DanielKrawisz Looking forward to seeing you rationalize this gem of a comment in the public forum: "No, more nodes arent more secure. A full node is valuable to the one running it, not anyone else"
los_pantalones: pete_dushenski it's not like i'm suggesting hundreds of people come in here, just the guys who end up on .derp
mike_c: how's the bear market treating you?
los_pantalones: anyway, we make investments here and there but mostly trade
kakobrekla: im totaly fine if they take the machine down for the needed period
kakobrekla: they are basically saying "hello idiot, put shoe on head, banana in anus to fix ddos"
jurov: sooo... got two mailman installations with gpg patch, one rejects everything as "bad signature" the other accepts even usigned stuff despite configured not to
mats_cd03: everybody in the region except the US knows they'll have to negotiate with the taliban five years from now
mats_cd03: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/26/green-berets-tell-of-afghan-national-army-soldiers << green berets telling everybody who didn't already know the ANA is useless
mats_cd03: kako and ben are so cute together
ben_vulpes: didja comment on their blorg?
ben_vulpes: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit << /me is amused at the "lisp/django" comparison
assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 04:06:13; ben_vulpes: cazalla: did you hear back from Conformal about the machines they used to come to their 32MB steady-state conclusion?
ben_vulpes: cazalla: what did you actually ask them? i eventually realized that the 32mb line is the nominal largest size of a p2p message.
mike_c: it's in the lawgs. hetzner.
kakobrekla: make the lines very long so he will never be able to catch up
Azelphur: by this conversation, I mean the pastebin :P
mike_c: I know the answer!
BingoBoingo: lol <gribble> Rating change | Old rating -10 | New rating: jason > -10 > ninjashogun | Begs for ratings, expects to gain -OTC ratings through 'relationships' rather than trades but not will even reveal his name, goes crazy with name-calling and baseless scam allegations. | Update: threatens retaliation: https://www.zerobin.net/?f68049f827a4c22b#gJAbVHDgwklVp6uiF5etTGF8SRBz1ygeewdsHuQkMYI=
mike_c: los_pantalones: (if not prying) what firm are you with that you were doing diligence on them?
los_pantalones: well, i mean relative to other companies in the space
los_pantalones: i've been on a few of due diligence calls for them
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl what's the status on the rss thing ?
los_pantalones: mircea_popescu i can't believe how much $ the ledgerX guys raised
BingoBoingo: I guess they have to be
diametric: couldn't find anything easily in the log, whats up with bitbet? ddos?
BingoBoingo: <gribble> Rating change | Old rating -10 | New rating: jason > -10 > ninjashogun | Begs for ratings, expects to gain -OTC ratings through 'relationships' rather than trades but not will even reveal his name, goes crazy with name-calling and baseless scam allegations. Judge for yourself: http://pastebin.com/kLUHRrda
Naphex: as people get closer to their realization points
mircea_popescu: i imagine the idea is that perhaps bitcoin futures may be made to work like gold futures. which won't work, but hey, if google got too much dough we can always take some.
mircea_popescu: doubt there's that much interest for usd futures, but hey.
bounce: ``Supporters of the company [...], believe that a U.S.-regulated, U.S.-based futures exchange for bitcoin would settle down some of the volatility of bitcoin prices'' -- because US awesomeness and USG rules fix everything
mircea_popescu: yet another one of these ?
Naphex: they're apperantly htting the presses with it
danielpbarron: cazalla, the bitcoin trader video was taken down; is it mirrored anywhere?
kakobrekla: they can also scam you with a dedi
kakobrekla: well since they infact accept it, i will reveal them https://incloudibly.net/en/ << artifexd
kakobrekla: at least they accept bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: some derp host obv << "banned software" ? wtf is wrong with these people.
mircea_popescu: then you use the extra to make an exclusive deal with the supplier and that's that.
mircea_popescu: well, it would work in the following way : those other sites get sold out, you still have a stock.
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I suppose that would work if there weren't a handful of other sites "selling" it also.
mircea_popescu: <TomServo> 2014-09-09 Note: We have sold out and are waiting on the next production run batch which will be delivered in a few months. We are sorry for the wait, but if you pre-order now we will send you a $20 gift certificate. <<< this is so braindamaged.
BingoBoingo: TomServo: Yeah I was away from the desk this weekend, and it took a bit to dig the relevant parts and boil them to qntra style.
cazalla: punkman: I read "coinscrum" as "coinscrotum" for a second there <<< you're not the only one
TomServo: asciilifeform: $5k - might as well be $5mil << For a toy, I agree...though they have some 'board only' options that come in the 675-1100 range.
mats_cd03: 13:34:45 — +asciilifeform wonders whether vendor is 'having problems' - considering that sdr is technically banned in usa << hows that? ham operators have had SDR for at least a decade, no mutterings as to illegality afaik
TomServo: asciilifeform: Didja check out the (pricier) options from ettus.com also?
TomServo: 2014-09-09 Note: We have sold out and are waiting on the next production run batch which will be delivered in a few months. We are sorry for the wait, but if you pre-order now we will send you a $20 gift certificate.
asciilifeform wonders whether vendor is 'having problems' - considering that sdr is technically banned in usa
asciilifeform: wonder if they're hand-made.
asciilifeform: restocked << what, another 100 units?
TomServo: sold out everywhere? < Was my impression also. Though some sites say they'll be restocked early 2015
asciilifeform: TomServo: i have only the cheapest. the famous rtl dongle, and an ancient rs232-controlled 'icom' box.
mats_cd03: asciilifeform: i use the ANT500 mossmann sells with the hackrf
TomServo: asciilifeform: Is there an SDR you'd recommend?
asciilifeform: let the real heros stand up.
asciilifeform will not be able to resist the temptation to build and test for free, but cannot promise to do this on a usably-frequent basis without compensation. is already doing rather many time-consuming things, not all of which bring in food.
mircea_popescu: however, he doesn't hold a large balance, maybe that's the first thing bitcoin foundation can spend on
ben_vulpes: but fiatcorp calls at precisely this moment, and i must leave ye all for the meantime.
ben_vulpes: so i've cobbled together a testing stack that builds and boots this build as I mentioned last night. next things that i'd like to do with it is attach it to testnet; and stand up a server non-locally to run these builds.
mircea_popescu: the guy that made the recent tx relay streamline thing
asciilifeform: (the 'ddos mitigation' stuff, for example)
asciilifeform: in fact, good portions of the original have never been 'live-fire' tested, afaik
asciilifeform: the latter also has the duty of being 'sapper' and trying very much not to err.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: original suggestion was a 'linus-style' scheme where we all sign & mail in patches, and one of us plays the part of 'Linus' and merges, signing the resulting trees
asciilifeform: traditionally, it is not unreasonable to demand that a patch not annihilate the buildability of the overall turd.
asciilifeform: (or garbage, depending on the merge!)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes either you or mod6 gotta start managing people!
ben_vulpes: and i didn't see any good suggestions re "what is the output of a 'merge'?"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is the mailing list up?
asciilifeform: so, to continue last night's thread - am i stuck merging turdatron patches? or is one of you folks willing to be the sapper.
asciilifeform: custom in the sense of signed firmware loader
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform custom pacemakers have been the norm for not-poor people for what, 20 years ?
jurov: or they put mandatory crypto for medical devices into law
mircea_popescu: keep them busy for 20 years.
mircea_popescu: jurov anyway, you should prolly apply, then you can sue for unfair treatment
mircea_popescu: Naphex problem being they also want to do it for free, but mayhap there's a solution for that.
mircea_popescu: jurov: prolly i can be never classified to work with usg sekrets <<< you saw i lolled at the "medical devices" part yes ? :D
Adlai: it'll be funny to see markets between the same "bitcoin" asset on different blockchains... reminds me a bit of goxBTC
mircea_popescu: "On the balance of probabilities this would seem the most likely outcome, strictly because history unerringly flows in that direction which most cruely rapes the “average person”."
mircea_popescu: Yet another one of them is that consumers revolt, entrepreneurs intervene, before the end of 2015 there’s about a thousand to a million different Bitcoin forks, each with its ten million-ish monetary base worth about a dollar, on global average. The size of the inter-Bitcoins market, the complexity and confusion ensuing makes pretty much everything unmanageable for the “ordinary person”
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: I wonder if this huge push on sidechains is because the power rangers realize the blocksize ain't increasing anytime soon... << http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/
mircea_popescu: Naphex: a enterprise node, hook into trusted bitcoin core nodes over P2p protocol. Index and cache the data << this is not a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: chicks the fucking definition of "here, i found this model passed out in the bathroom"
asciilifeform: some 'people' value the 'freedom' to lie about everything and misrepresent anything.
mircea_popescu: actually you'll hear hell from people trying to pretend that this is the right way, and pgp is XYZ FUDstuffs even today.
asciilifeform wonders how the proof of authorship worked sans pgp
mircea_popescu: <punkman> I've also thought of signing the "lite" bundles << seems redundant. sign once, which you do, with the tx.
asciilifeform: (thx to diametric for the reddit find)
mircea_popescu: the result is a very cruel mistreatment of human soft tissue.
mircea_popescu: well, to be generous, it's not the voice that's the problem. it's the god awful pretense that one can understand things by guessing what words might mean "in context"
mike_c: the new tragedy of the commons is that the commons have a voice.
mircea_popescu: he heard words and therefore words because words.
mircea_popescu: mike_c he is one of the word processors.
mircea_popescu: the brits had that.
mike_c: dumbfruit's argument hurts my brain. he is saying that transactions are too cheap and therefore the block size limit should be removed?
asciilifeform: but - plus a demented king running the show
mircea_popescu: no, kolkhoz is exactly the british commons.
asciilifeform: there's a third setting on the dial - kolkhoz
mircea_popescu: mentally compare the difference between an estate owned by nobody and commons
mircea_popescu: well, the difference is subtle.
mircea_popescu: yeah, take out the dumb shit.
asciilifeform: meant, from the code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, we can't. to remove them they'd have to at first somehow been included.
PeterL: when the bitcoin foundation was announced I figured I would just ignore it, I have not found a reason to change yet
asciilifeform: can we remove them ?
jurov: The Bitcoin Foundation is an ineffectual consortium of self-interest, operating under the guise of benevolent advocacy. They need an enema.
mircea_popescu: lol look at that, reddit asks for bitcoin foundation to remove satoshi from its rolls, the fucktards react by removing satoshi from the bitcoin code they're raping.
jurov: nothing stops anyone from creating their own bundles completely, to prevent it would need deedbot to have own key
mike_c: punkman, did you write up a doc on the bot or release some code? could be useful to get eyes on it.
jurov: no there are only deeds
mike_c: *.b-a is down atm, is that where the bot description is hosted?
jurov: only to the end
jurov: and you can't make it by adding new deed in the middle even now
jurov: the fake bundle would be lent credibility by existing deed
mike_c: because there would be a terminator in the middle.
mike_c: yeah, a terminating sequence of bytes. then it can't be validly extended.
punkman: I've also thought of signing the "lite" bundles
punkman: as in, take bundle, add another deed and make new bundle?
jurov: nothing more and it can be resolved by checking of whether the tx originated from deedbot's piggy
PeterL: I don't see any benefit the attacker would have over just submitting a deed to deedbot?
jurov: everyone has their moments
PeterL: the timestamp is based on the blockchain transaction, if they put another deed transaction on the blockchain it does not hurt the first one?
jurov: no real problem likely, just the obnoxiousness
PeterL: jurov so what if they add another deed, what would be the problem?
mircea_popescu: jurov yes, but i myself can also take it away, and have, and will, if the person's obnoxious.
jurov: and it can be easily solved by terminating the list of deed hashes prior to final hashing
mircea_popescu: they risk their ass doing asinine shit like that.
mircea_popescu: jurov but listen, the someone should be in l2 right ?
jurov: it can be detected by fact that the payment did not go from deedbot's address but i still dislike this
jurov: and then make a fuss about it?
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