mircea_popescu: "i know better than you lot, you lot are stupid, not least of all for being a lot in the first place".
mircea_popescu: wait a second. what part of the "you folks are like blind kittens" is socialist, iyo ?
asciilifeform: 'soft' - when the entire concept of meaningful resistance becomes a hard problem
asciilifeform: which was the undoing.
asciilifeform: in usa, they not only had better steel and semiconductors, back in the day, they also had better chumpatronics.
mircea_popescu: there's metrics, yo.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but at least the usian populace gets to pick which butt to be pictured bare.
mircea_popescu: the chinese pretend themselves communists, but really... the us is more advanced on the socialist path than they are.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform merely consider the fact that the politbureau did not customarily seek to include the general opinion of the populace. not exactly socialism, this, is it ?
mircea_popescu: the purpose of trees, to hear the bromeliaceae tell it, is to one day support one! and in fact all life on earth evolves towards that peak of creation, a parasite plant of little notice.
mircea_popescu: it's funny, this particular bromilliad, sometimes catches root on a tree, then proceds to derp all about how you know, the purpose of the tree is it!
mircea_popescu: for that matter, the us was quite a different beast before being coopted by the socialists to.
BingoBoingo: To think that 100 years ago anarchist aggression started a conflict among the euroarchists
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that the only possible point to even having anarchy in the first place is to render the sorts of idiots that'd fall for it.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i;ll tell you how that went. dudes for some reason perceive the need to "sell" it, and since it's obvious that you can't sell something to someone that the someone;d perceive as a "worse" alternative, then necessarily it must be made so that anarchy is not more painful to the average derp than you know, the 1980s in the us.
BingoBoingo wonders what shitgnome introduced "non-aggression" into ananrchy. With the persistence of the *archy it would seem that aggression would be necessary in one's own defense.
BingoBoingo: undata: Of course *archy is mean. Just avoid the robokleptarchy
mircea_popescu: if i recall there was a lengthy thread of naked women in star wars paraphenalia
BingoBoingo: There's always going to be a *archy
BingoBoingo: Yeah, the *archists would reintroduce aggression
mircea_popescu: what, the "i have no balls" tag was taken ?
undata: the non-aggression principle
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski dja mea nthe 4chan clone ?
berndj: mircea_popescu, presumably on a road, the owner of the road might require you to sign a contract that forbids beating your kids
mircea_popescu: what's the location got to do with it !?
JuliaTourianski: We can't know. So who aggressed against who? Should the man have asked to grab her ass first...well, that would contradict the entire concept of the mutual thrill of ass grabbing.
JuliaTourianski: Woman and man at a bar. They may or may not be flirting...each may interpret their interaction differently. Man grabs woman's ass. Woman punches man in face. Has there been a violation of the non-aggression principle? What if the woman liked it or wanted it, but felt embarrassed of her urges due to the public setting and retaliated in a way she felt redeemable. Or maybe she was abused as a child and the act de
JuliaTourianski: the who question on non-agression is interesting too
berndj: lol undata many of its pages were indeed read on the toilet
JuliaTourianski: i do know the book but i have yet to tread it
berndj: JuliaTourianski, do you know the book _48 laws of power_? your "sour grapes" comment reminded me, there's rule 36: Disdain things you cannot have: ignoring them is the best revenge
JuliaTourianski: "If I save myself from an adversary by retreating indoors and locking every entrance and exit, I may remain freer than if I had been captured by him, but am I freer than if I had defeated or captured him? If I go too far, contract myself into too small a space, I shall suffocate and die. The logical culmination of the process of destroying everything through which I can possibly be wounded is suicide. While I exist
mircea_popescu: then the whole ecosystem collapses under their weight ; rocks fall, everyone dies ; the mongols come to rape the lot.
mircea_popescu: or else, that you'd have unbearable brats the sort that grow up to be isaiah berlin and fill the world with the idiocy of their parareasonings as to why nobody ever needs to grow the fuck up already.
mircea_popescu: the alternative being, of course, that you could be an old maid, in which case the same children would be... just as equally dead.
mircea_popescu: but now they are 16, and a man comes and takes them to war, where they get shot and die.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, you get over it, and the wound heals like any wound, and now you have children, which of course you love, being so wired to do.
mircea_popescu: this is obviously coercitive, on the part of said man.
mircea_popescu: you get to be 16. at this point you figure - miuch like that chick in wuthering heights or whichever had the 7 sisters - you have about as much need of fucking as you have of someone sticking his finger up your nose.
mircea_popescu: you are a little girl growing up in the house of your parents, which is all nice and good.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's come full circle, by now the unruly stupid children of yesteryear are forming pseudophylosophyc systems to justify their sillyness.
JuliaTourianski: Dostoyevsky said: "boots are superior to Pushkin" so what is freedom? freedom to starve of freeze in the cold? or freedom to be warm and fed under rule
asciilifeform: (king hunger is actually just an affiliate duke under king thermo)
asciilifeform: see also king gravity, king thermodynamics, etc.
JuliaTourianski: "One is that all coercion is, in so far as it frustrates human desires, bad as such, although it may have to be applied to prevent other, greater evils; while non-interference, which is the opposite of coercion, is good as such, although it is not the only good."
mircea_popescu: generally writers do readers the courtesy of defining stuff tho.
asciilifeform: very important and relevant - to the zookeper - he is quite interested in making sure that it stays as it traditionally tends to be, useless and irrelevant.
mircea_popescu: no discussion is either important or ever relevant if the discussers don't know what they mean by words.
JuliaTourianski: is the discussion of freedom even important or relevant anymore
asciilifeform: this must be at least the 7th time sussman and his neural net pop up here.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo by exception from the general rule, i actually wanted this one in teh record.
mircea_popescu: "So that the room will be empty."
asciilifeform: inevitably modern discussions of 'freedom' reveal themselves as having the purpose of convincing a chump that the entire concept, but specifically his wishes to not be a zoo animal, is delusional and he 'is bad and should feel bad'
mircea_popescu: Minsky then shut his eyes.
mircea_popescu: "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.
mircea_popescu: In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
BingoBoingo also thinks the F-word is too tainted by abuse to be useful on its own.
mircea_popescu: otherwise... depends, pls to explain what you mean.
mircea_popescu: if you define it as em with wavelength so and so, then yes.
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski for "it" to "be" something you're making some presumptions. is the color pink possible ? if so, what is it ?
mircea_popescu: well so far we're at the point where we try to find out what you mean by words.
JuliaTourianski: the form of life he has invented for them, he will, on this definition, have succeeded in liberating them. He will, no doubt, have made them feel free - as Epictetus feels freer than his master (and the proverbial good man is said to feel happy on the rack). But what he has created is the very antithesis of political freedom
JuliaTourianski: will not do. If I find that I am able to do little or nothing of what I wish, I need only contract or extinguish my wishes, and I am made free. If the tyrant (or 'hidden persuader') manages to condition his subjects (or customers) into losing their original wishes and embracing ('internalising')
JuliaTourianski: "The doctrine that maintains that what I cannot have I must teach myself not to desire, that a desire eliminated, or successfully resisted, is as good as a desire satisfied, is a sublime, but, it seems to me, unmistakable, form of the doctrine of sour grapes: what I cannot be sure of, I cannot truly want. This makes it clear why the definition of negative liberty as the ability to do what one wishes - which is, in e
JuliaTourianski: excatly. which is why i bother ask it here
JuliaTourianski: the goal of freedom
JuliaTourianski: the entire thing feels like a feel-good distraction from actual attainable action.
JuliaTourianski: so change direction from blowjobs, I wanted to ask your thought on this "freedom" we're all obsessed with. i like this critique: "To coerce a man is to deprive him of freedom - freedom from what? Almost every moralist in human history has praised freedom. Like happiness and goodness, like nature and reality, it is a term whose meaning is so porous that there is little interpretation that it seems able to resist"
asciilifeform not an expert on the economics of this, but wonders how the cost relates to the 'unit cost' - that is, what it costs to house and feed a typical vendor.
mircea_popescu: http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/kimkgif.gif << next we're gonna learn kim came to the us on a hb1 visa.
mircea_popescu: this is definitely most of africa, but i suspect most of the us by now, too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i can't dispute the poverty bit.
jurov: then it ends in 5c 0a as it should
jurov: damn hexdump switched the endianness, file is actually correct
mircea_popescu: only the 5th this month.
mircea_popescu: o look! there's a parade down my street
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: the definition of poverty! << say moar <<< sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.
asciilifeform: (which the turd in question was. in fact, quite likely it is even mostly posix-compliant.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: someone took the trouble to make a trojan that works on all windowses to date ? << this is very easy given a purely-userland turd.
jurov: oh you mean the paste box
jurov: but i am not putting the code in browser
Azelphur: that's just weird then
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the argument i was trying to make is that, when grunting on a prison asteroid, a liter of rocket fuel makes very little difference. only L liters - sufficient for liftoff - will.
jurov: Azelphur: it exchanged the \ and \n
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the definition of poverty! << say moar
asciilifeform: case files ... the one time you'll never hear about it << once it becomes a plausible thing to claim for a side in a case -> phase transition.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: use a rechargeable prepaid card << the day of 'thumbprint please sir' or at least 'show id' is not far.
mircea_popescu: if this results in a patch to the kernel of w/e jurov's server is using...
mircea_popescu: the plot, it thickens ?
jurov: EATS THE TRAILING NEWLINE
mircea_popescu: rithm: it's cryptowall now and from what i can tell it's infected sites like mom & pop's ruinning old WP/drupal/some CMS <<< yeah, stuff the shitheads in question don't maintain, then i have to answer biweekly questions of "is qntra down". off with their heads i say!
mircea_popescu: joecool: poweliks is a really interesting infection that often pulls in the cyperlocker ransomware, that hit the wild a couple months ago << look at that, someone took the trouble to make a trojan that works on all windowses to date ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: gotta love these idiots. when'll somebody edit, rather than simply wiping, the case files ? << the one time you'll never hear about it, because how would you.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: let's put it this way. a pile of usd without at least seven or eight decimally-significant zeros trailing after it, would make absolutely no difference to how i live. <<< this is like... the definition of poverty!
BingoBoingo: The good reloadable prepaid cards even allow you to write "checks"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: jurov: except that i can't use paper usd for anything << do what the soon-to-be-"protected" folk do, use a rechargeable prepaid card lol
mircea_popescu: in any case, nlocktime is ulterior on the flow of entalpy to that kafkian point where shit went weird, identified retrospectively.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^^^^^ < at this level it is difficult to distinguish simple idiocy riding on featuritis (because nobodies wish to get a place in the sun, and absent actual skils what better avenue trhan the pretense of adding value ?) and actual malice as oyu describe.
chetty: <mircea_popescu> this "innovation" is the fucking thing bitcoin was made to kill.//so they make a lot of messes, thats how kiddies learn and once in a while something useful actually gets invented
mircea_popescu: mrjr: thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper. <<< myewah, the surprises keep right on coming
mircea_popescu: this "innovation" is the fucking thing bitcoin was made to kill.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker someone made a clear "here's the water, here's the flour" thing so it's simple and obvious, all sorts of derps come up with all sorts of "improvements" consisting of various doughs. "it stores better as canned frozen dough with our magical chemicals than as simple flour! and you can make things!"
mircea_popescu: mrjr: there's edge cases with malleability etc, but the benefits are that bitcoin operations can have their coins kept in a tx form, not as the information of the privkey << this is so braindamaged i can'teven be bothered.
saifedean: he keeps trying to recruit me to work with him, and i keep trying my best to bluntly explain to him that his whole thing is going to a giant fat zero, and that the best outcome possible for him is to lose only all his money
mircea_popescu: saifedean that's not the point tho.
mircea_popescu: mrjr: multisig is useful to protect access to privkey, by splitting the power of moving funds to 2+ entities. we pre-sign transactions, nlocked in time, and discard the private key. <<< and i know that you do because... you say so ?
saifedean: i'm not too bothered, i don't think he'll muster more than $100 in "investment"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: picture a zoologist encountering an alien equivalent of the scorpion for the first time. what will his most important, though scientifically 'fuzziest' observations be? that the animal is - venomous.
saifedean: so the arab bitcoin space is growing up so fast... we are getting our own scamcoin
mats_cd03: mircea_popescu: who are the three this time?
asciilifeform: now all of their works are 'guilty until proven innocent' and this is actually a useful heuristic that saves valuable brain cycles when ferreting out the actual logic behind their actions (when there is a logic.)
asciilifeform: the philosophical 'win' from setting 'bozo bit' on gavin et. al. and seeing the shitgang as 'enemy' is tangible.
mircea_popescu: ironically, they today as they back then were "the enemy" strictly because they do not wish to understand or submit to trade, and instead seek to insulate against it. as if.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the plurality is beneficial. serenissima foreign policy is to continue helping along the numerous and growing breeches among the three
asciilifeform: same from the perspective that french rev. saw 'kings' as a thing.
mircea_popescu: so, no. not the same. tentacles tho, i guess.
mircea_popescu: he's definitely just as much an enemy as the wily putin, who clearly understands what bitcoin is all about, and is fighting it more efficiently than the us.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: there is precisely one enemy. but with many tentacles. <<< one you see now. once china's idiotic mr Xi shows up you'll be of a differing opinion. that fuckwit came up with a "war on corruption" that includes the theory that conjugal infidelity is both a sign and a symptom of graft. this is what they do over there now, prosecute cocksuckers & sluts.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: hence, they add up to an act of sabotage. what probably amounts to a hard fork that 'no one' noticed. << i dun think so, fwiw
mircea_popescu: for a zoologiocal metaphor, the man once bit by a scorpion will readily recognise the "scorpion biting" as an activity that to the naive may well look rather cute.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: this goes straight back to galbraith's original discussion where he coined 'the bezzle.'
mircea_popescu: kafka is actually famous for exactly the ability to render this real situation in works of fiction. as you read through the castle or whatever, at some point you realise this is all pretty nutty, but if you look back to spot when the nuttiness started...well... it didn't seem so at the time.
mircea_popescu: the naivity of contemporaneity, as it's called. hitler also seemed pretty reasonable to plenty of people as far up as perhaps 1940, but that's not preventing a current understanding of the guy to see him as pretty fucking broken as early as 1930
asciilifeform: enemy is built out of useful idiots, in the same way that a tree is made of atmospheric co2 and soil nutrients
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: at this point, the enemy is enemy not simply because of what he does or may do, but because of what he has done and what he is. <<< well, at the previous point the enemy was not an enemy at all, just a bunch of derps. it's ony recently that trilema went from "power rangers" to "gavin has turned", and for a while there prior to the 2013 debacle he was not even being treated in concordance with the idiocy
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: its a pretty neat feature for say senior to give jr. allotments of capital at guarenteed future date << there are better solutions to this problem.
mircea_popescu: shot the guy an email, curious what comes of this.
mircea_popescu: threat to use federal law to request information about the FBI's deeply problematic understanding of national security threats."
mircea_popescu: The FBI claims that it cannot discuss the case in open court "without damaging the very national security law enforcement interests it is seeking to protect." Instead, it has filed a secret declaration outlining its case. "This is an especially circular and Kafkaesque line of argument," Shapiro counters. "The FBI considers it a national security threat to make public its reasoning for considering it a national security
mircea_popescu: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/foia-ryan-shapiro-fbi-files-lawsuit << pretty lulzy
asciilifeform: next thing you know, they start asking 'proof of work'.
assbot: FBI Stops Responding To The Most Prolific FOIA Filer, Because He Might Actually Learn Something | Techdirt
mircea_popescu: assbot: Cloud&Heat is putting servers in homes and offices and the heat from them is free. << o look, one step closer to the bitcoin miner heating tile element.
mircea_popescu: it's roughly the difference between me not recognising X's thinking as valid and me not recognising X's property as his.
mircea_popescu: as unintuitive as this may seem, these two are actually different.
mircea_popescu: the very definition of a terrorist organisation.
mircea_popescu: they should have found that tlds are of the nature of national sovereignty and that cannot be impinged upon by an us court.
joecool: it's simple but effective tool to pull in all sorts of junk, the case i was called in to look at was actually a POS system :-\
joecool: asciilifeform: poweliks by default runs a keylogger and is pretty candid about storing the output in plaintext in a tmp file
asciilifeform: crapware artists, generally, aren't focused on 'maximally pwning' a chump in the abstract sense, but in extracting whatever it is that he is worth - e.g., cc #s
rithm: oic there's now PE or even a filesystem object
joecool: past 2 months or so it's been in the wild
joecool: it's been a long time for me, but that was the most sophisticated and difficult infection i've seen, XP was hit really easy with it
rithm: i myself have not deployed my own nefarious variant of that either, no
rithm: so the payload is a real basic thing, modifying files. i hate it
rithm: they can modify
rithm: so anything the user has access to, specifically filesystem permissions
rithm: the story i hear is Nancy was checking vendor's site and the next thing she knows bam cryptowall
joecool: poweliks is a really interesting infection that often pulls in the cyperlocker ransomware, that hit the wild a couple months ago
asciilifeform: crapware written for intelligence-gathering purposes ( BingoBoingo's picture above ) rarely takes the shape of a 'botnet', usually there is some effort to target a narrow set of chumpers.
rithm: we returned it "fixed" never check ed the client's docs
asciilifeform: the objective, virtually always, is to make some fast money
rithm: i had an engineer reinstall windows on a cryptowall pc this week and return it to the client
asciilifeform: 'civilians' often seriously misunderstand the motivation behind botnetsmanship.
asciilifeform: speaking of the general case here.
BingoBoingo: Well yes, normally seems to stay on victim's computer, but if they can lock the files, they can include other shitware
rithm: the only data exfiltrated to my knowledge is the decryption key and an identifier for the machine
rithm: well it's my understanding the data is not exfiltrated
rithm: documented sources where the FBI actually makes the recommendation to pay the ransom is useful to me
asciilifeform: gotta love these idiots. when'll somebody edit, rather than simply wiping, the case files ?
BingoBoingo: citation is now there.
rithm: yeah i was gonna say where is the citation
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: missing link in there?
asciilifeform: apologies if i've given someone, somewhere, the strange notion that i'm interested in parting with my microscopic collection of btc.
asciilifeform: other thing is, i don't have enough to sell, and present exchange rates being, to really notice the resulting pile of usd, even if it could magically land in my usd piggy without official attention.
jurov: let them ask it back from irs
jurov: maybe you can even charge tax to the desperate people
asciilifeform: last farmer's market of the year on my street is tonight, and i shall be buying a few tomatoes possibly with it
xanthyos: if it crashes, my purchase goes through, if it goes to the moon, coinbase will cancel the transaction
xanthyos: why does btc always crash the second i buy it
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: can't imagine i'm the only one, though. << you aren't
asciilifeform: can't imagine i'm the only one, though.
mrjr: got a blog / post on the issue you're describing? sounds interesting
mrjr: i wasnt aware there was politics behind nlock. always considered it as potentially very useful.
asciilifeform: bip64, aside from complicating the protocol and giving relevance to the gavin shitgang, is also a jam-tomorrow chumpatronic engineering structural element
asciilifeform: alice in the looking-glass, famously is offered 'jam tomorrow and jam yesterday -- but never jam today.'
asciilifeform admits that he suspects bip64 of being a plot to create usg-like bonds in btc. folks will be asked to trace X proper btc for X+epsilon 'locked' ones that are to land back in their pocket 'in the future', should they live long enough, but are actually recovable 'because this is how the world works'
mrjr: that includes internal theft.
mrjr: inaccessible = nobody can sign, because the key no longer exists.
mrjr: the remaining 200k+ BTC can be stored in a form that is in-accessible to the operator, and unavailable for "rogue txs" that steal everything
mrjr: we saw that with just 1,000 BTC accessible to the operators, they could cover 96% of their Bitcoin withdrawal needs
asciilifeform reads the thing
mrjr: did i explain sufficiently the motivation part?
asciilifeform: if a critical mass of ntp servers (e.g. the u.s. hierarchy) is pwned, there go your timelocks.
jurov: <asciilifeform> punkman: germany has same electric rates for residential and commercial lines << they do have lower wholesale prices where you have to obey the grid management regime, dunno about details
asciilifeform: the other, unrelated point about the timelock business, is that it introduces an incentive to monkey with timekeeping
mrjr: if the attacker has access to all your txs in unlocked version, they can indeed run away with everything
asciilifeform: what does the 'lock' prevent the enemy from doing, that he could have done otherwise ?
mrjr: you still need a cron, to send the nlocked txs every day
asciilifeform: you want the btc network to be your 'cron' ?
asciilifeform: if you like to keep the privkey to the 1000 buried in concrete at the bottom of the sea - you can sign X tx'es of B btc each, and transmit those each day with cron job
mrjr: "when you sent them manually"
asciilifeform: when you sent to them manually each day.
asciilifeform: they didn't before
mrjr: the why is: the operators of the ATM no longer have a need to reach out for the cold-stored 1000 BTC
mrjr: you do not broadcast those tx, you just keep the txs, signed, and discard the privkey to your 1000 BTC (!)
asciilifeform: in the case of delay mechanism: you've broadcast a set of delayed transactions that will keep landing in the now-stolen addr. nightly.
mrjr: there's an alternative pre-signed transaction chain that sends the coins to alternative addresses, possibly more protected, and a pre-signed "lockdown" transaction that just sends the coins to a non-practical (from an operation standpoint) multisig
asciilifeform: take ordinary, delay-less coin. you fill up the atm's addr nightly, say. if you are told that someone walked away with the machine, you no longer send to that one.
mrjr: 't broadcast the txs to that address
asciilifeform: per unit time. but what can you do if someone walks with the privkey to the landing address?
mrjr: think of the daily needs of those machines, vs the amount stored "in cold storage" using traditional systems
mrjr: asciilifeform: you're right, but by pre-signing you ensure that the amounts available at that address, per unit time, are limited. our first partners are ATM machine operators
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mrjr: secure your bitcoins in nlocked transactions rather than protecting the priv key << wai wat.
mrjr: thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper.
thestringpuller: cause you are the trustee
thestringpuller: then you should def be in WoT "there is no need" more like "there is no greater need"
mrjr: thestringpuller: our first service is just what you wrote, giving the network a means to trust that a tx will be valid on time (unless ofcourse it was double spent, in which case you get notified)
mrjr: the tech is useful e.g. for an exchange/bank that keeps large amounts of BTC, but has a daily use for BTC as clients withdraw funds.
mrjr: there's edge cases with malleability etc, but the benefits are that bitcoin operations can have their coins kept in a tx form, not as the information of the privkey
mrjr: multisig is useful to protect access to privkey, by splitting the power of moving funds to 2+ entities. we pre-sign transactions, nlocked in time, and discard the private key.
gribble: The operation succeeded.