assbot: I don’t know what the hell I said. I gave her an ultimatum and there’s nothing I can do. It’s a machine. The little light is blinking right now: ‘Come and listen to the idiot. Hey everybody, the idiot’s on!’ pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/i-dont-know-what-the-hell-i-said-i-gave-her-an-ultimatum-and-theres-nothing-i-can-do-its-a-machine-the-little-light-is-blinking-right-now-come-and-listen-to-the-idiot-hey-everybody-the-i/
asciilifeform: not that i personally give a damn whether a particular honeypot is artificial or 'wild.'
asciilifeform: at any rate, the incentive for the buggers to fabricate 'terrorist atrocities' is so overwhelming, that any such item is guilty until proven innocent of being just such a crock of shit.
asciilifeform: cazalla: the whole thing exists only as a honeypot, even when it doesn't.
assbot: 4 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday
asciilifeform: !s the man who was thursday
cazalla: what are the odds such a site is a honey pot?
cazalla: ignoring the paedos, i thought this was a good model for a porn site http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/11/09/as-drug-markets-are-seized-pedophiles-launch-a-crowdfunding-site/
mircea_popescu: all these important things i don't know about!
asciilifeform: 'the map is not the territory, but you can't fold up the territory and fit it in your glove compartment.'
mircea_popescu: so basically we could say it's "the understanding" of magnetism ?
asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.)
mircea_popescu: well me either, what am i. mafalda.
asciilifeform: and neither does anyone else
asciilifeform: but not the organs of usg, nor of finance.
asciilifeform: if you visit wash.,d.c. you can see that in the '70s a good chunk of the place got 'detroit'ed.
mircea_popescu: what i am saying is that the mechanism clearly exists.
mircea_popescu: now look. im not saying the small scale thing is effectual.
asciilifeform: same deal there
mircea_popescu: fine, whatever unquenchable permariots. the paris stuff.
asciilifeform: lizard-hitler loves it when his zoo animals fight ineffectually among themselves
asciilifeform: quite a few folks say 'ferguson' when discussion hypothetical phase transition, but i must disagree.
mircea_popescu: something like the ferguson stuff.
mircea_popescu: you know, peacible grasshoppers suddenly change mode because they got touched on the toes by others too many times.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are still 'few old guys.' they see the remaining many as impostors, but are not particularly afraid of them. they have pills for this ('obamacare' etc.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that scheme only works when there's few old guys.
Adlai: basically, that's what happens when tribes/nation[/-]states attack eachother
asciilifeform: afaik traditional scheme is for the armies to fight in perpetual deadlock, as if they were the ruminants with horns set at such an angle as to be of no use
mircea_popescu: sure. they also fuck her, then they go have a drink with the first gang, exchange impressions.
mircea_popescu: hires a different gang of thugs to... kill the first gang ?
mircea_popescu: suppose kim kardashian goes around drunk in the bad part of detroit, gets raped by a gang of thugs
mircea_popescu: are you like, new under the sun ?
Adlai: so they'll hire xenotribal mercenaries
mircea_popescu: Adlai you don't understand. there's nothing more readily cohesive of a group than hatred for old people.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, my favourite discussion of the topic is balzac. eugenie grandet.
Adlai: well, old people who don't keep supporting themselves enough to stay alive without support from other tribes... will die of old age
mircea_popescu: but see... because of the "nonviolent principle" or w/e, it doesnt HAVE TO adapt anymore.
undata: mircea_popescu: seems the hive would lose the ability to adapt without some mental youth elixir being invented alongside
Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919815 << what'll happen once old people live long enough to form their own tribes/societies? would this be some weird form of speciation?
mircea_popescu: the west did too, for... well... "fairness" i guess, same bs.
mircea_popescu: the east destroyed its value system "for socialism"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's the normally sclerotic reaction of society to a dissolution of values
nubbins`: somewhere out there, a guy named langton is eating chips on the couch and watching seinfeld. again.
gribble: Gerontocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy - Merriam-Webster Online: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy | Define Gerontocracy at Dictionary.com: <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gerontocracy>
mircea_popescu: something the us is getting more and more acquainted with.
mircea_popescu: in fairness, the commies were very well familiar with the problem of just-wont-fucking-die-already dinosaurs
asciilifeform: probably one of the best known scenes in all of film.
mircea_popescu: undata i recall reading this east-side of cold war story (rdg it was i think ?), about the drink that bestowed immortality, and how obnoxious old people were, 700+ yo clinging on to life to "see who wins whatever games"
undata: and I question the "most"
Adlai: :-o "millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" by the guy who died on a Sunday afternoon
asciilifeform: 'live long enough to see the buggers off.'
nubbins`: undata the complete model has maybe 2 rules tops
undata: What if certain things are just out of reach? Maybe the complete model is simple, but the approximations leading to it are larger than brains can handle?
Adlai: the exact timescale doesn't matter, it'll happen
Adlai: well my initial random was "certain within decades", but then I toned it down a few orders of fartitude
Adlai: they could with external support. maybe not today, but it's easily possible within a few hundred years.
Adlai: in humans neurons, queen damage is recoverable, with assistance from other colonies
nubbins`: asciilifeform i fell into a black hole halfway through my cs/math joint major on points like these
asciilifeform: they max out every known measure
Adlai: which is why I linked to clinical examples, rather than speculation
asciilifeform: nubbins`: none of the claims, for whatever measure of 'complexity', amount to anything more than farts in the wind.
nubbins`: but i feel like the upper bound is significantly higher than people realize
assbot: Reticular formation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Adlai: you could roughly equate the queen of an ant colony to a human brain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_formation#Clinical_significance ?
nubbins`: i know people claim that there's an upper bound on the complexity that can form in a cellular-automaton-type system with simple rules
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. << incidentally, the brain seems to fit this quite exactly.
mircea_popescu: perhaps except for the queen, but that's an endless discussion.
asciilifeform: undata: in fact, i recall that he had a character who is being marched to a mafia execution, and offered a magic pill before being shot. the pill wakes him up to the idea that his mind is already being simulated on a 'computer' made of space dust, somewhere, if only 'interpreted correctly'
nubbins`: asciilifeform unfortunately the sea won't be seen as alive until after it's dead D:
mircea_popescu: otherwise windows is ai for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: i have limited patience for it because of the sheer lack of predictive power.
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. << this obviously requires you to be allowed under the hood.
asciilifeform: this is an ancient argument - 'the sea is very intelligent but we just aren't protocol compatible and can't see that it's even alive'
nubbins` recalls the (clarke?) short story about an intelligent electrical field
mircea_popescu: so we eliza-recognise what WE do on the grounds of culture and convention
undata: seems a lot that passes for human intelligence is driven by autonomous processes evolution carved into us, just like the ant
mircea_popescu: well, this definition is, "when you recognise what's being done, but neither why nor how, you're confronted with intelligence"
asciilifeform: this goes back to my complaint about the ai wishers. they aren't asking for 'intelligence', just a mechanical but recognizable version of themselves
asciilifeform: the way that my 4 walls are a repeating cycle of moves to me.
mircea_popescu: not to it. that's the point. to us.
asciilifeform: who am i to say that a repeating cycle of moves is not 'house' for the automaton.
mircea_popescu: say if you showed this process to 1k randomly selected 5 yos, would they say "it built itself a house" ?
asciilifeform: no one has proven anything, afaik, of substance, about whether the ant will always build the road.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. <<< mis lados!!
asciilifeform: well think to the end.
mircea_popescu: see, that "intend to go" is exactly why the preoccupation with non identifiability.
mircea_popescu: if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent.
asciilifeform: not necessarily disputing the hypothesis - but why the preoccupation with non-identifiable parts?
mircea_popescu: while no identifiable part of the code deals with housebuilding.
asciilifeform: (from a hypothetical 'ai')
asciilifeform: what bothers me most is that most of the 'askers' have no idea what they actually want.
mircea_popescu: well, the only way to build one may be to first build a planet, then let cnc evolve.
asciilifeform: that is, a favourite preoccupation of crackpots of all stripes, and from the whole spectrum of scientific literacy - but no results.
asciilifeform: not that it has been shown not to exist, but has about the same status as 'god'
asciilifeform: the 'super-turing' machine remains a mystical unicorn.
mircea_popescu: i superficially suspect this discussion proves there can never be turing ai.,
asciilifeform: so, in principle, if the machine were to do nothing but cough up 'gensyms' for a few millenia, you will exhaust memory.
mircea_popescu: is this provable to actually work all the time ?
mircea_popescu: well yeah but if it did violate restatement then either i'm wrong or no ai can be made to run on lisp machine.
asciilifeform: creates a symbol with no meaning other than identity (cannot add, subtract it, it only has a name and the only permitted operation is determination of identity)
asciilifeform: ^ best representation of the concept i know of
mircea_popescu: o for sure, im not even getting into the point of the article. i just went on a tangent for objection reasons, like i do.
asciilifeform: what 'ai and stupidity' was about, was an actual pestilence of pseudoscience, where folks convinced themselves and others that they were accomplishing 'great things' while really pulling each other's dicks in a most stultifying way
asciilifeform: we might be speaking of different things then, re: 'names'
asciilifeform: where are the namings?
asciilifeform: but for the fact that it worked.
mircea_popescu: that thing IS intelligent, just like me and you and the dragonfly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the self-evolving fpga?
mircea_popescu: mp's lemma of artificial intelligence requires any computer program that exhibits in fact ai to depend in its functioning on the naming of its functions, and that self-metaprogramming be a part of its working.
mircea_popescu: to the code.
asciilifeform: say, if it was able to distinguish cat from dog, and now operates an automated dogcatcher, prior to the renaming of strings, and still can - there was 'substance.'
mircea_popescu: that's what thought is, entirely, all the time : suggestively named strings.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but my point is that this argument misses the very point of what thought is.
asciilifeform: the idea in the article can (and has) been rephrased like this. if you remove all the 'suggestively-named strings' like 'understand' - and replace with 'gensyms' - e.g., 100324 - does the resulting machine still do or even appear to do anything of interest?
mircea_popescu: there's no substance to thought.
mircea_popescu: but since the article spoke of "substance" in thought... well...
mircea_popescu: not that any of these subtle considerations have any sort of practical effect or importance,
assbot: TripTank - Stoned Ape Theory - YouTube
asciilifeform: and today perhaps the allmighty favours ohm's law, tomorrow - not
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> the argument is whether they're actually different. <<< in the sense that each game of wol is actually different
mircea_popescu: and the brain is in no sense and to no degree a logic processing machine.
asciilifeform: afaik western traditions of sophistry are not even the most die-hard adherents of this idea. in some variants of islam, they actually believe that 'if the circuit works, it was will of allah' and nothing more
mircea_popescu: if one function returns rnd(0,15) and the other rnd(20,42) it is easy to establish which returns the larger number,
mircea_popescu: undata the argument mind, isn't that some eliza-trees don't make much better looking reality-clothes than others.
nubbins`: and somewhere, somewhen, the sound of keys clacking on a keyboard was heard
mircea_popescu: so, yeah. all thinkers are eliza, the distinguishing among elizas, like among whores, purely an application of one's own aesthetic preference.
mircea_popescu: well, the reason might be that there couldn't be such a thing. there's nothing that makes "good science" better than a pile of shanonized papers.
asciilifeform: even the elixir of distinguishing cat from dog by mechanical means, so far escapes programmers.
mircea_popescu: what is the method through which i could write software that distinguishes between actual science and global-warming-science ?
asciilifeform: and i'm not altogether certain that i'd profit from grasping it
asciilifeform: the principle involved, i must confess, escapes me
mircea_popescu: not every whore is a partner you'd entertain, but that has little to do with the principles involved.
asciilifeform is firmly persuaded that every microscope is a hammer. however, not every hammer is a microscope, demonstrably. and therein lies the boojum.
mircea_popescu: undata if you will. asciilifeform yes, essentially, which is why the microscope hammer thing never persuaded me.
mircea_popescu: the ability of whores to distinguish themselves from "those cheap streetwalkers" is not that important globally.
mircea_popescu: if you recognise a naive romanticism in one field, the other should also be obvious.
mircea_popescu: and, obviously, fucking. ie, a manipulation of the subject according to the rules of the reality it inhabits.
mircea_popescu: the sort of understanding you propose is a relationship between mind and object that's transcendental. the ready comparison is the supposed transcendental relation between man and woman.
asciilifeform: wide net, but somewhere in it there flops a fish, 'understanding'
asciilifeform: well, if i had to give an example of 'understanding', involving 'transformation', i'd offer the transformation of pebbles on a beach (original 'calculation') into well, calculation, and mathematics, and, ..., nukes.
asciilifeform must confess he is rather puzzled at this point
mircea_popescu: so : your idea of understanding would be in fact "transformative love". ie, it'd give you the ability to turn, if not marble into virgin, at least whore into housewife.
asciilifeform: people have never been seen to, e.g., rotate themselves in 4th d. and end up rechiralled. but they do occasionally understand things.
asciilifeform: the mechanized stage magic of eliza
asciilifeform: he is thinking of another variety of clever tricks.
mircea_popescu: [self]delusion to the contrary notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: it is NEVER the case anyone ever understood anything whatsoever in any case at any point in human history
mircea_popescu: 'It follows that he cannot know that certain people at certain times do not understand in Parry-or Eliza-like ways. That is to say, he has no way of knowing that we do not ourselves sometimes function by means of "clever tricks".' actually, i will go as far as to say that it is always certainly the case understanding happens through "clever tricks"
asciilifeform: weizenbaum, author of iconic 'eliza', also understood how little a mechanism really needs to 'understand' in order to give an idiot the illusion of 'understanding.'
asciilifeform: d a lot of people, most prominently himself, and enrage a lot of others.'
asciilifeform: 'programs to a great degree are problems rather than solutions. If a researcher tries to write an "understanding" program, it isn't because he has thought of a better way of implementing this well-understood task, but because he thinks he can come closer to writing the implementation. If he calls the main loop of his program "UNDERSTAND ', he is (until proven innocent) merely begging the question. He may mislea
asciilifeform: it's an epic paper, that not merely rained but pissed on the exuberant 'ai' parade of the '70s academe.
mircea_popescu: lmao the title promises
mircea_popescu: of course it does, but so ? energy states in a semiconductor also conflict, in the abstract
mircea_popescu: they don't know how to compute whether x option ios better than y option in any situation, but they do know you don't just walk into mordor
mircea_popescu: which is how they all "learned" all about mordor.
nubbins`: closed encounters of the 4th kind
mircea_popescu: basically, to teach a muppet something you must construct a literary work which jives with the preexisting dreamworld he inhabits
mircea_popescu: will ONLY learn from fiction, inasmuch as they find a way to link it to their own fiction.
asciilifeform: 'the hunchback will be straightened by his grave.'
mircea_popescu: s experience, nor from their own.
asciilifeform: and will end up learning from the electric fence.
asciilifeform: not clear that these folks have an actual take on the subject. parroting usg religion - yes.
mircea_popescu: not that it's false, but they're not women. so... how ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the best of all worlds, tbh. i'd get really pissy in short order if reddit actually knew what's what
mircea_popescu: myeah. and this matters, because the non-wot world is like, totally a world and anything, and what happens outside of b-a ctually happens, and non-notarized documents actually carry weight and everything
assbot: Logged on 04-06-2014 00:08:26; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the buggers' traditional defense is to pretend that the event was a non-event - or, if this is impractical, to continue living in an imaginary world where they 'scooped' the story first, and all of the 'unsanctioned' discussion never happened.
mircea_popescu: because why report, right, there's all these fucktards that need to wonder "what mainstream nobody agrees with mp", as if that's the fucking criteria nao, we vote for knowledge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something tells me i won't be getting the "mp's blog, first place to announce tor is shit, a year or so ago" all over the "tech" "press". just like i didn't get the "mp forces wikileaks to release unedited cables by publishing the romanian subset" a few years back
mircea_popescu: course, when i said so last year the derps went on derping, but why would the derps count here.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: they print now, not wishing to risk obsolescence
asciilifeform: or how one might determine the electrical circuits in an old house (by unscrewing breakers at random)
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: traffic analysis is easy, cheap, fun. consider analogy of the children's game 'sea battle.'
TomServo: they follow icp, yes
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: iirc the method was published before, some months ago
undata: they apparently have a whole religion
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=juggalo | juggalo. For the most part, an uneducated, pathetic excuse for a human being who listens to the group ICP who are bold enough to actually consider themselves ...
asciilifeform: (or perhaps not. i do know he's corralled a good fraction of the 'russian' confections business)
undata: the juggalo thing is a bizarre example of marketing turning into some weird semblance of a 2-way belonging
asciilifeform: afaik poroshenko runs the factory.
asciilifeform: incidentally i get these in usa. though no idea for how much longer.
mircea_popescu: exactly the right sheen. damn you stanislav!
assbot: Ptasie mleczko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this may actually be the very same filling as in 'bird's milk'
assbot: Juggalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
xanthyos: it's sad when they actually seek out mickey mantle to get reciprocation though
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you think they make duck tape ?
xanthyos: if you can convince your customer that you can literally breastfeed them they'll trust you forever
xanthyos: i've seen a video of a duck nursing from a cat because its own mother was gone.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the usg seems moreover its prey than anything.
assbot: “You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.” pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ << amusingly enough, it's mostly NOT government issue.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only tech left that works in the english speaking world is the tech that manipulates this at first view pathological "one way belonging" thing.
mircea_popescu: at least in our classical understanding thereof.
mircea_popescu: i mean, it used to be the case for children. but biological adults today are psychologically infantile, and this is by very far the most obvious effect.
mircea_popescu: the way people today construct their mental representations of groups and belonging is nothing short of mindblowing.
mircea_popescu: Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $ a year. How much does your father make?
mircea_popescu: Bill Mazeroski, I hate him. He made Mickey Mantle cry. The papers said the Mick cried.
mircea_popescu: Come over here. Sit next to me. You must be pretty upset after the Yankees lost.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but see that it actually "serves", depending how you put the goals on the table
asciilifeform: 'best practices of the sea.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jeffidiocy << there we go. herr lightoller's, too.
asciilifeform: likely - we will get to watch (or, feel on skin...) all of the available mechanisms.
mircea_popescu: i tell you, the anthropology of this thing has been an endless source of fascination to me
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform jeffidiocy manages to keep idiots with benefits away from bitcoin altogether.
mircea_popescu: in short, there's a very deep valley between "windows user who thinks himself into bitcoin because he recognises the term" and "bitcoin user".
mircea_popescu: 99% of bitcoin belongs to the remaining 1%
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. <<< reddit is not, contrary to what it tells itself, relevant to bitcoin
asciilifeform: while lies, of the 'false flag' variety, may not be the only tool in the buggers' toolbox - it is certainly their favourite. and perhaps the sharpest.
asciilifeform: with the inevitable shitgnome 'fixes' brought out
asciilifeform: i predict that when the hunter 'shoots', it will be 'spun' to look like a 'protocol' (or even crypto) break, of one kind or another
asciilifeform: i inevitably picture a hunter, trying to avoid 'spooking' the birds
asciilifeform: well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse.
Adlai: also, a skilled thief would target other stacks after/while people start leaving the brokenest one
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a skilled turdmeister (especially of the privvy-to-microshit-remote-orifice variety) will leave nothing to find.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when anyone bothers - very laboriously, largely manually-cranked.
asciilifeform: i.e. winblows is the ultimate trojan per se.