mircea_popescu: cazalla well they prolly have a point.
mats_cd03: i remember thinking at the time,
mats_cd03: i sat. paid mere shillings per day ... and idiot walked, because jury couldn't be bothered
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 i think the great theory goes, that you don't need people who care, or who are competent, or understand anything etc. you just need enough of them.
mthreat: i think they did it to screw with me ;)
mthreat: ya. and funnily enough, i once got a jury summons from the very court that convicted me.
asciilifeform: only reason usg still bothers with juries, is that they can generally be relied on to play ball, and this state of affairs is reasonably simple to maintain.
mircea_popescu: i don't really trust mass produced sweets. in house all the way!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, can't hurt to inform another million.
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, an undisputed and for that matter indisputable string of caselaw.
asciilifeform: known to a million people, but jury selection is typically such that they never sit
mircea_popescu: If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence ... and the courts must abide by that decision.
mircea_popescu: btw, to help publicise the most important, and therefore least well known aspect of the us justice system :
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu said, iirc, 'they want to be boiled in oil'
asciilifeform: 'Compared to Stuxnet, the state-sponsored malware whose creators have never been confirmed, the recently-discovered trojan...' << wtf. confirmed as daylight.
mircea_popescu: ah if only bitcoin were around in the 90s, back when greenspan was still in charge.
mircea_popescu: ears in reputable dealings before he could earn a position of trust sufficient to induce a number of investors to place funds with him. Protection of the consumer by regulation is thus illusory.
mircea_popescu: Regulation - which is based on force and fear - undermines the moral base of business dealings. It becomes cheaper to bribe a building inspector than to meet his standards of construction. A fly-by-night securities operator can quickly meet all the S.E.C. requirements, gain the inference of respectability, and proceed to fleece the public. In an unregulated economy, the operator would have had to spend a number of y
BingoBoingo: Needs a follow up, what is in the bag?
assbot: The two aspects of my urban negro. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AJUCoF )
undata: hah, looks like it was the 1920s onward
mircea_popescu: i can't begin to imagine why. all the good slovak fucks i had were gypsy
mircea_popescu: yes, and the thing trapped is you.
undata: cazalla: if I'm in the position to consider the cost of using secret police or something to get it done, I might
mircea_popescu: if they should be sterilised, you have no conceivable reason to seek their approval.
undata: I like the idea of paying people to agree to sterilization.
mircea_popescu: jurov in general, so that most of each generation succumbs to avoidable causes, and most of the survivors don't dare speak.
undata: mircea_popescu: seems like poverty's the best option
undata: mircea_popescu: at its self-licking task of chewing up the population
jurov: the filter to that goal?
mircea_popescu: well inasmuch as something still exists for putin to run over, neither has russia "starved to death" ?
jurov: they saved on high tech to buy grain, i can esily see it
mircea_popescu: generally, the leadership of "socii", ie "allies" ie vassals is worse than at the center.
jurov: it was cuz they bought grain instead?
jurov: my grandpa was technical manager in 1980s and explained the hoops they had to jump to buy any equipment from the west
mircea_popescu: as a result of the canadian explosion.
mircea_popescu: they imported grain because it was cheap
mircea_popescu: by 1980 the globalisation of trade makes such approach useless.
jurov: yes, ussr imports in the 1980s. there was modern agriculture and irrigation available then, i suppose?
jurov: the greek one
mircea_popescu: jurov you mean in the 80s ?
mircea_popescu: jurov and if you also count greece as part of europe, they had a famine tambien.
assbot: Foreign trade of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1y9zs0H )
jurov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_trade_of_the_Soviet_Union pediwikia mentions grain imports specifically
mircea_popescu: nah, the famines were criminal particularly because stalin's soviets were net exporters.
jurov: from the west, even.
mircea_popescu: pretty much like the russian.
mircea_popescu: whioch reminds me. asciilifeform you know the irish "fear gortha" ?
mircea_popescu: <jurov> and there was no such famine in eastern eutope outside russia inn 20th century << silesia famine in 1850 ? hongerwinter ?
mircea_popescu: that's the clear and incontrovertible proof that mechanized agriculture wasn't available even beyond the pale. let alone inside russia proper.
mircea_popescu: <jurov> and it was *after* mechanized agriculture was available << it was not at all available. do you know what the tachanka was ? Makhno's thing.
mircea_popescu: <bagels7> they didnt have tchonology like today? <<< they didn't need it, because they weren't nearly as many.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> detectably plenty of starvation in ancient world, even with 'sound money' and good management << quite. famine is a great motivator, and to be honest i do not see why half the population should not at all points be hungry.
assbot: The idea for a great film... pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1FllE3z )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'the west gate fell. all is lost.' that one
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also tied in to your 'then the centurion walks in, a different kind of man' story.
mircea_popescu: the substance of the squal of the little girl confronted with the underside of a large boulder exposed to air
mircea_popescu: the entire "putin doesn't understand how thwe world works" and "oh horror x! oh horror y!" is really the voice of a deconstructed postmodern intellect confronted with the sheer obscenity of reality.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha. in the words of herr kokkarinen: 'modern hipster is not being rogered, because the cock is entering ironically(tm)'
mircea_popescu: this sort of ablated hipsterism is what passes for strategic thinking in the us.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i brought it up on account of 'orcs' rather than gulag. what orcs look like to human.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "but nobody would dare sink a carrier, because THEN ITD MEAN THEYRE SERIOUS ANBD FOR REAL!!!!"
asciilifeform: jurov: u.s. gulag system, afaik, is merely an expensive waste of time, like their aircraft carriers.
asciilifeform: but 'orcs suck and should simply kill themselves instead of sullying the planet with their stench' is not a historical argument.
mircea_popescu: they still resent it lol.
asciilifeform: there is also the 'they're idiot orcs' construction. which isn't even false, because, well, orcs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at least, this;'d be the "most favourable possible ulterior retrospective construction"
undata: asciilifeform: I see that; in the US many tactics were used, among them property tactics, etc., to coerce people into the cities
asciilifeform: ultimately, being a builder of industry at the 1917 (or even today's) tech level, fundamentally sucks. as in, the same way being in prison sucks. so stalin et. al. tried experiment: what if being a peasant sucked -more- ? and - it worked.
mircea_popescu: so others can learn from his corpse, right ?
mircea_popescu: if he makes it whole and says "without the gulags, from congo to CAR"
asciilifeform: undata: basic mechanics here. peasants do not actually need the city-dwellers for anything (at least at the ru circa 1917 tech level.) why should they feed them, if asked nicely? and why would they wish to move to the city and waste away in factories, merely if asked nicely?
jurov: he one with less people in it is always best, either ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps because it is the case.
mircea_popescu: because if you don't then by your definitions eugenics, and if you do wtf you doing in slovakia instead of say b-a.
mircea_popescu: jurov do you believe that out of two possible situations, the one with more people in it is always best ?
undata: I suppose it depends on the situation as to how much of a display is needed
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the land of 'soft power' - soft gulag. (almost inevitably hands want to say 'soft cocks' also.)
undata: mircea_popescu: I see the point about a genuine display of power
asciilifeform: there is every reason to expect this behaviour from future meat grinders.
asciilifeform: jurov: incidentally, the most well-founded historical model of gulag etc. i know of is - that meat grinder was built, and became the proverbial 'self-licking icecream cone' after running short on the designated feedstock. a la french rev.
mircea_popescu: by definition you know ? if you're not hurtin yourself then why wouldn't it be fake.
mircea_popescu: <undata> this to me sounds like a very wealthy man lighting his wealth on fire to display sovereignty << afaik the only possible honest signal is exactly this.
jurov: asciilifeform: here they did like kolkhozs to an amount bacuse it wasn't done so violently
asciilifeform: jurov: and realize that the blowback from present-day usg idiocy will make lenin et. al. look reasonable and gentle. see earlier thread re: isis.
mircea_popescu: <cazalla> bagels7: the beatings were way worse than any bdsm "master" i had <<< lol same << lol wait, bagels7 is into bdsm ?
undata: mircea_popescu: not-maximizing isn't the same as actively grinding away at your population until as jurov points out the numbers start to really dwindle
asciilifeform: jurov: try to see the difference between 'i like kolkhoz' and 'what they did, made sense'.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> jurov: maximizing meat now? << as far as i can tell, there's a certain subgroup of transhumanists for whom even the faintest hint of discussion as to whether rivers of meat is the correct minimaxing is "eugenics" which is to say their local equivalent of "fascist" ie, very bad mkay.
asciilifeform: jurov: amateur gardens, yes. the traditional 100 sq. metres.
jurov: yes it is obvious. there was no famine in the 1990s only because govt came to senses and gave people their own soil
BingoBoingo: The Usian Gendarmie is probably going to have a lot of horses http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/11/19/police_horse_study_increases_trust_authors_say.html
asciilifeform: lol, that my drunken compatriots could not fend for themselves, is as obvious as gravity.
asciilifeform: jurov: feel free to travel back in time and teach lenin et. al. how to retain sovereignty for their country (that is, no colonization, no cultivation of dependence on hostile west) without, well, the cost.
undata: asciilifeform: that a sovereign can do whatever he pleases doesn't necessarily proceed to "therefore he stole all my things and left me in mud"
jurov: germans made tanks too, and did not even had so much arable soil.. no famines there, too
asciilifeform: without sovereignty, 'your' tractor - isn't yours. it belongs (along with your starfish) to the big boys.
jurov: and there was no such famine in eastern eutope outside russia inn 20th century
asciilifeform: jurov: tank is a particular type of tractor, let's say. it cultivates sovereignty (or did, in the age of the tank, but why nitpick) rather than edibles.
undata: jurov: my folks grow enough to have everything they need, and the food they produce is delicious
jurov: if they could make tanks, why not tractors?
undata: one of those being fucking until the pile of human flesh I've produced is visible from space
undata: asciilifeform: there are innumerable things I could do in the present moment that I don't because they don't seem sensible
asciilifeform: undata: in the general, 'malthusian' case - where could it possibly go?
bagels7: they didnt have tchonology like today?
asciilifeform: this always bugged me. somehow folks think that starving to death under czar was like dying of co poisoning in a mercedes to the tune of classical music, but starving in ussr is starving in a dumpster with broken glass.
jurov: long live the romanovs!!!1
bagels7: my aunt who i was living with who decided i could trust her like a mother, i felt more betrayed by her than my bio mother
bagels7: cazalla: I decided to stop going when i was 15 but then my aunt played her protestant brainwashing guilt trip shit on me
asciilifeform: jurov: meat tends to trim self if left to own devices. spitting on gulag while cheering, say, czar's famines, is like the folks who 'love small business and despise megacorps' here in usa. poorly thought out logic.
undata: I'm going to be spending a lot of the business income on moar business for a good while
bagels7: there are 1000s of jehovah witness stories like our, endless pages of forums
undata: ben_vulpes: is it cheaper to just pay the tax?
undata: ben_vulpes: when do they start taxing you if you don't have insurance?
cazalla: bagels7, spatula? you got it easy then
bagels7: well there was that one time he broke a spatula that came on par
cazalla: bagels7: the beatings were way worse than any bdsm "master" i had <<< lol same, jugcord here, never knew when it might strike or for what reason
undata: asciilifeform: seems like you have a little confirmation bias in there
cazalla: bagels7: I'm still rovering from the jehovah witness's and religious brainwashing <<< holy shit, i'm not the only one to suffer this in #b-a
jurov: and i don't see how atomic bomb or other achievements can fix that
mircea_popescu: in the us tho, you can't even buy insurance
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so laughable, most of the world lives on less than that.
asciilifeform: what 20th c. mega-empire didn't boast of 'science'? it's nearly obligatory, like the christianity of european kings
mircea_popescu: not feminists, they got thick scales over all that fat.
jurov: okay my other criterion was that eugenics victims are barred from procreation by "science"
jborkl: all the naked people would freeze in Montana, heh
jborkl: Thank you, Mircea I added a section to https://www.bcoinnews.com/mpex/ . If there is anything that needs to be changed just let me know
mircea_popescu: jurov no the criteria you enounciated.
ben_vulpes: "requires you to get health coverage by the end of the open enrollment period on February 15. If you don’t, this year you’ll have to pay a penalty of $325 per adult or 2 percent of your household income -- whichever is higher." << death of self insurance in the usg
mircea_popescu: jurov not sure you realise the problem with your thinking here, but anyway : is homosexuality an eugenic experiment ?
jurov: it's my own nickname for them meant to rile up stan
mircea_popescu: but should perhaps preface the general statement with a clue. "as far as everything's eugenics, then gulags are eugenics"
mircea_popescu: jurov well that's then a narrow view you're more than welcome to
asciilifeform: ru eugenics << wat, with lysenko's theories of heritability? lol!
mircea_popescu: would it then be an "eugenics program" ?
mircea_popescu: seems putting them all in a large nude colony in montana may work.
mircea_popescu: suppose you end up in charge of the us. now, there happens to exist public record of me saying something about social sciences, professors and fallopian tubes.
mircea_popescu: no wai the gulags can be reduced as "eugenic programs"
mircea_popescu: anyway, the q i want answered asciilifeform is re aurelian!
mircea_popescu: jurov i think you miss the points where he's being facetious
jurov: there were millions of 'evil wreckers' in ussr?
assbot: The Radioactive Boy Scout: The True Story of a Boy and His Backyard Nuclear Reactor: Ken Silverstein: 9780375503511: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6u7pW )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well... but but the wooden plow people had it with 50s tech ?
jurov: meanwhile, murdered vast swathes of own people
asciilifeform: jurov: i'm aware of the nuances, yes. incl. herr tito's story.
jurov: it was actually under control of the pederasts *between 1918-198x*
asciilifeform: mail corrections to herr limonov. the basic point stands - ru owned these folks every bit as 'legitimately' as rome owned anything. and then it walked out because its brain was under the control of alien pederasts. whose tendrils are being ejected, slowly but surely.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that "without anyone';s help is nonsense". for one thing, there were 3 romanian armies there
assbot: Logged on 15-06-2014 02:28:38; asciilifeform: of course, unphased by this. We know now that their strategy of psychological war turned out to be a correct one... To establish the injustice, the 'meanness' of the enemy in a moralistic war is every bit as important as winning a pitched battle in a hot war.'
assbot: Logged on 15-06-2014 02:28:38; asciilifeform: moral justice the legions ought to forsake the lands for which they had paid with their blood. Not only is the transference of conceptions of morality to the evaluation of historical events a phony method, but, if we recall, the moralists - the defeated European nations and the Americans, enemies of the USSR - that is to say, non-impartial moralists - their condemnations sound hollow indeed. The offen
assbot: Logged on 15-06-2014 02:28:38; asciilifeform: 'the Western blok... preferred to view the Eastern European nations as victims of Soviet aggression, ignoring the simple and manly fact (that would have been instantly understood by a Roman) that Soviet legions, without anyone's help, took possession of Eastern Europe via force of arms, answering aggression with aggression. And the Roman would an absurdity - he could not comprehend, in the name of wha
mircea_popescu: the salic law of succession specifically had a 5) and thou shalt not have fixed borders in there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the part with illiterate idiots (west) - yes
mircea_popescu: well, whatever, southern parts romania, but lettuce not quibble :D
mircea_popescu: the russkis understand bases are expensive.
jurov: ok, so you say he just makes land bridge to crimea and then everything stops.
mircea_popescu: look at it from moscow's pov. 1) the us builds a large base at constanta, once europe's largest port by tdw, and mere miles from the russian bases at sevastopol
jurov: undata: there's parallels to sudetenland annexion and numerous other historical precedents.. it's very unlikely putin just stops there.
bagels7: does the US "governemnt" kill more inocent people than isis
bagels7: yeah my boyfriend saw trilema and was like "that guy is a terrorist" just from the look
mircea_popescu: im sure there is.
jurov: i also heard there's an approach somewhere "mircea_popescu is evil"
mircea_popescu: which is in and of itself the saddest indictment one can ever hear about any state.
mircea_popescu: so far their ideology pretty much reduces to "anything us is evil" as best i can tell.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i said "because if you're reading the guardian&co, what you see there is coming out of the same sifon that yields the "putin is insane" spritz."
jurov: noo, mircea is pulling putin into the discussion
jurov: i will probably move if it keeps progressing... what was the argument?
mircea_popescu: then you'll be in a better position to appreciate the inanity currently rotting your brain away.
mircea_popescu: bagels7 the best advice for you is to a) create a list of 100 classical texts written before 1800 ; b) spend two weeks reading NOTHING online but that. not anything. not a single page of popurls or whatever. none.
mircea_popescu: because if you're reading the guardian&co, what you see there is coming out of the same sifon that yields the "putin is insane" spritz.
undata: every human shoves along every other human as he/she can; religion's not a special case of that
mircea_popescu: jurov my position is, "their enemies which i don't particularly care for claim they be evil, but otherwise also got beat to shit". this i can go for.
jurov: mircea_popescu: how it can be divided from politics? "yeah they're utterly brainwashed zealots, but otherwise i like their political views"???
bagels7: undata: I'm a victim, I don't have a victim mentality. there is a difference. I did not have the slighest victi mentality from age 4 to age 22 concerning my mom leaving me
asciilifeform: chetty: not specifically magnetic core. but the general principle, of a machine built for intelligent, educated folks, who are -expected to understand- it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then mel is your patriarch ?
bagels7: the beatings were way worse than any bdsm "master" i had
mircea_popescu: undata is this one of those where kids get bored so they claim to see jesus and adults get all excited "because kids can't lie" and then the primary attention getting mechanism available to kids is making wild religious revelation claims ?
mircea_popescu: bagels7 so then be welcome in our cult ranks!
bagels7: I'm still rovering from the jehovah witness's and religious brainwashing
asciilifeform: can debate, but he fails a number of basic tests for the category, not limited to age
mircea_popescu: the minskys and kuhns and whatnot
bagels7: i dont respect much gray hair anymore, due to being deceived with their lies
mircea_popescu: virtually all the imbeciles we despise had computers as children.
mircea_popescu: all the people we think are ok met computers in college
mircea_popescu: bagels7 think of it this way : most of the graybeards that we respect met computers in their 50s, after fucking with paper for a long time.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only sunny spot in human existence.
bagels7: back then I had a brain and motivation to learn, now i don't care. let white society burn
bagels7: my intelligence has greatly been reduced, my dad was an idiot, i wanted a computer since i was 13 but they only got one my second semester of college
chetty: undata much better off these days with real mentors than college
undata: hence lurking here and trying to absorb things from the polymaths present
undata: bagels7: I sought good mentors along the way who beat sensible habits into me
mircea_popescu: sure, if you want to melt the cheese you can go "and taleban bombed nyc"
mircea_popescu: the shah ?!
mircea_popescu: jurov i don't recall a humiliating defeat of the us and its allies at the hands of either iran or taleban.
jurov: or you have embassies in the later?
bagels7: undata: me too, but i flucked out due to paying for rent and food rather than school stuff
mircea_popescu: mebbe someone in your position contribures what looked best to them ?
mircea_popescu: generally the way this works is someone asks a question and sometimes i pop an article out. but they're generally much more concrete.
bagels7: relevent to being aware of the world or just being sucessful
bagels7: Hi, Im new so I was hoping you could link me to the most relevent articles since I only have 5 per week
mircea_popescu: hey there s. we were just talkin bout isis. how do you take that ? :D
mircea_popescu: undata if i sent my spymaster there, and she operated without constraint and superhuman power to report,
undata: maybe those guys end up outcompeting the religious idiots from within
undata: mircea_popescu: I've seen it mentioned several times that "ISIS" is the face of a force non-negligibly comprised of former baathists, etc
mircea_popescu: we see the burning, we know the arsonist, could we not say isis in in control of the us today ?
mircea_popescu: this alone is good credentials, but consider : 50 trn is the us going to pay over the next 50 years for that war, and they were sent home by isis.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would go so far as to say that isis is the thing that made the us destroy its permanent installations in baghdad, something that has not happened since china beatthem in vietnam.
mircea_popescu: so far it's not a thing yet, and it should be supported, merely to ruin more of the socialist world.
chetty: I'm not so sure about the human material, Egyptians can't read maps ...
mircea_popescu: anyway, the discussion of whether we like or dislike isis is to be had once isis is a thing.
undata: asciilifeform: I wonder the same thing: is it a matter of policy to help re-establish a caliphate?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's put it this way - the arab lands burn, and we know the arsonist - usg. who can say that arsonist is not still in control?
mircea_popescu: they're currently going through the "hate them" phase. perhaps this may soon resolve al-fucking-ready.
mircea_popescu: they are cutting up women because they're desperately trying to resolve the significant sociopolitical problem of carin what women think.