BingoBoingo would like to rip all of the memory out of "The Machine" and air drop it to asciilifeform in 2010 with a duffelbag full of money
decimation: I think they developed some kind of persistant hybrid ram/flash storage
asciilifeform: 'His team aims to complete an operating system designed for The Machine, called Linux++...'
asciilifeform: decimation: i'll take mr spam's word re: him having been paid to vandalize #b-a rather than -otc
PeterL: people who matter are here, not there?
asciilifeform: decimation: i can't picture forgoing a cockroach repellent simply because it may move the roaches to your neighbour
PeterL: and it will not be an extra step to rate people when he makes the changes he suggested
decimation: ultimately this could just move the problem to #bitcoin-otc or something
asciilifeform: 'we do not go through weird gymnastics on account of terrorists' or the like
asciilifeform: but i imagine some of the folks here would be annoyed
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and opening the gates using it
asciilifeform: can be another link.
asciilifeform: other nice thing about signed packets is that it no longer matters where they came from.
asciilifeform: decimation: you're entirely correct that this will eventually be a thing, though. hence the need for stateless, single-packet auth hellos.
decimation: what if mr. spam learns the ip of a friend?
decimation: I suspect the crypto would need to be done on an fpga
asciilifeform: afaik this was probably obvious to everyone from the start.
PeterL: lol, I can't read and type at the same time
PeterL: then once you are in you can auth with gribble too if you need to update any ratings
asciilifeform: then, if you want to rate, still have to auth with gribble again though
decimation: ah well who generates the signed message? gribble?
decimation: ah, but then assbot would need a 'hot key'
asciilifeform: hardwired dependence on pastebin then ?
asciilifeform: to the extent it makes sense to do it
asciilifeform: so as to have the ui we are accustomed to
nanotube: use pastebin to pass a signed message to the bot. assbot can just grab the user database on a regular basis to keep current.
asciilifeform: at any rate, the correct way to use it would be to have a proggy emulate an irc server and connect ordinary client to it
asciilifeform: and even if there were, it would be unsuitable for safety-critical signatures (e.g., wot ratings)
asciilifeform: decimation: right now there is no ready mechanism (except in my experiment, described earlier) for pronouncing ephemeral ('hot', machine-readable) keys for rapid signing
decimation: and it would eliminate most of the dependence on freenode infrastructure
decimation: but at least it would be a step in the right direction
asciilifeform: nanotube: it can only work if folks can authenticate with assbot (and hence with gribble, or equivalent) without exposing hostname
PeterL: nanotube: I don't think the change I am suggesting would require any change of gribble, just adding a separate auth to assbot
asciilifeform: and therefore functions predictably and perhaps in some way constructively.
asciilifeform: nanotube: my suggestion was to expel the enemy with an only slightly less annoying mechanism that is at least controlled by actual people, and not by spamming scum
asciilifeform: nanotube: let's look from another angle. right now, noobs are virtually banned from #b-a. but the ban is enforced by a hooligan, not by any of us
decimation: and if he managed to make it on, he would be identified by the brains of those on the channel and quickly kicked
asciilifeform: nanotube: he will have to go beyond passing the turing test, and into fabricating an interesting and invite-worthy personality each time.
nanotube: and then waiting for a while
PeterL: would we need to pm assbot to get a challenge to decrypt, or could it be something like we just send assbot the signature of "auth <wot name> <current time>"?
asciilifeform: they read kakobrekla's www log, see who to pm, make a brief case for being invited
asciilifeform: if they wish to lurk.
asciilifeform: nanotube: except there wouldn't be one. people would be asked to read kakobrekla's www log.
nanotube: asciilifeform: yes... but then the squatter will just squat on the 'gateway' channel where people get forwarded when they are not invited
asciilifeform: nanotube: the only readily apparent way is '+i'
nanotube: PeterL: oh well, i guess auth can stay for that purpose. or you can just send a signed message to assbot directly, in theory.
asciilifeform: nanotube: we were contemplating ways to expel the ddos idler from the channel in a permanent and generic way.
PeterL: that helps with ratings, but does not help the current voicing model of #b-a
nanotube: asciilifeform: i'm hoping for a gradual transition, as people upgrade their ratings with signed packets. after a sunset period, all unsigned ratings may be ignored
asciilifeform: nanotube: everyone gets to re-send their collected ratings with signature ?
asciilifeform: nanotube: incidentally, what is to become of the present wot when a hypothetical 'everything is signed' wot is built ?
nanotube: asciilifeform: well, more like an anti "guy leaves, some other guy comes in on same ip, and gribble has no way of knowing about it, unless they share a channel and gribble can see quits"
nanotube: it is being worked on. but have a lot of other stuff on my plate. once everything is signed, there will not even be a need for something like "auth".
PeterL: so the question for you: would it be possible to let people auth without being in a chan with gribble?
asciilifeform: ultimately the very need for 'cloaks' is a bizarre misfeature
asciilifeform: where the hooliganism can continue
asciilifeform: the channels-shared-by-gribble thing also means that ddos idler bot, if expelled from #b-a, can move to one of the other channels.
asciilifeform: there was also a mass compromise of freenode boxes in sept. and who knows when else, and on what scale.
asciilifeform: (the error-inducers)
asciilifeform: it is not hard to guess who they are.
asciilifeform: there are, i surmise, parties which are actively trying to induce these error conditions en masse.
asciilifeform: nanotube: it points a ddosnet consisting of ntp and ssdp 'amplification' bots (misconfigured routers, typically) at the victim.
asciilifeform: nanotube: there is a ddos artist paid (apparently) to carry out an endless quest to interfere with #b-a and related projects. presently he has an idler parked here.
decimation: nanotube: there's a ddoser who spams anyone who joins #bitcoin-assets with a 'naked' ip with an ntp amplification attack
asciilifeform does not know if nanotube is aware of the reason for this thread
nanotube: asciilifeform: sure, but not everyone who uses the wot is in this channel or is cloaked :)
mike_c: yes, but he knows the nick didn't switch.
BingoBoingo: namecoin has been shot in the head many times
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Or maybe you don't yet know you imply it. It's the only alt I know of with Satoshi commits
asciilifeform: (iirc namecoin was recently shot in the head)
nanotube: asciilifeform: it's a way to track a person by hostmask, to provide persistent auth sessions. once we move to 'everything must be signed' there would be no need for auth sessions, and thus no need for people to be in particular channels shared with gribble.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there is precisely one worthwhile blockchain.
asciilifeform: and the formerly harmless softness and promise-based mechanisms will become serious holes in the armour.
asciilifeform: i dare to invoke the 'parachute theorem' and say now, that when wot is taken seriously by intelligent and resourceful enemies, it will be rather late.
asciilifeform: and guess what state of the art here is
BingoBoingo: #b-a irc net seems the only long term solution
asciilifeform: and back to the start.
asciilifeform: unless you move the whole thing to a dedicated box with own irc. but then you advertise its ip in public
decimation: there is no channel
decimation: asciilifeform: another alternative: all chat is pm'ed to assbot, who posts it to the log
asciilifeform: nanotube's wot works, afaik, thus far, but a good chunk of it still lives in the old pre-cryptographic universe
PeterL: decimation: there are a bunch of -1s which offset +1s
asciilifeform: one of the things that always gave me the willies about the classic (nanotube's) wot is that operations are not signed
kakobrekla: but basically as far as i gather punkman already downloads wot data from otc
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Luke-Jr!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr. Trust relationship from user assbot to user luke-jr: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 6 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=luke-jr | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=luke-jr | Rated since: Sat Feb 5 12:37:04 2011
PeterL: in the proposed system, can people join if assbot is down?
asciilifeform: that being, that all the controls have manual emergency cranks
asciilifeform: when they're awake
asciilifeform: ops can operate the whole thing in manually-cranked mode, afaik
PeterL: they would still be able to manually up people, right?
PeterL: if gribble is afk, then nobody can get into this chan
PeterL: it's strange, you must be in chan, but you can auth in a pm, so why be in the chan?
asciilifeform: or ask nanotube to remove the peculiar must-be-in-channel thing
PeterL: have assbot take over the WoT?
kakobrekla: among other things, it is out of my control.
PeterL: what happens if somebody tries to join the chan without auth/L2? do they get dumped into #bitcoin-assets-noobs?
asciilifeform: at any rate, the folks whose gadget this is, can decide
asciilifeform: PeterL: proposed change transfers the initiative to actual people, and takes away whatever piece of it the spammer had.
asciilifeform: PeterL: understand, it isn't as if they can freely idle here now. ddos bot takes care of this.
PeterL: there is some benefit to seeing what is happening now, in reaction to events going on
asciilifeform: they can listen!
mike_c: idk, I think it's fine that we let them talk when they are actual people. how are they to become actual people if they can't listen?
mike_c: PeterL: my understanding is anyone who enters uncloaked, thereby flashing their IP, get ddos'd by the fucktarded bot that is lurking in here.
asciilifeform: PeterL: idea is that the idler parked here by mr ddos will die.
mike_c: Luke-Jr: they smell funny too
PeterL: so if an uncloaked noob comes by, asks for voice and gets let in, then they will be ddossed?
Luke-Jr: mike_c: you realise the regulars/admins here are insane?
asciilifeform: mike_c: idea was, we let them in when they are actual people with an actual reason for wanting in
mike_c: and the problem we are trying to solve here is that uncloaked noobs might get ddos'd.
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: just like your victims, 'there was plenty of warning', 'no one unwitting', 'there were no victims'
PeterL: hands don't help much if you don't know where to put them
Luke-Jr: funny how I'm falsely accused of censorship, and the reaction here is to censor me ;)
asciilifeform: '... and they vote!'
asciilifeform: these were adults, with working hands.
asciilifeform: what a sad thing that they did not die.
asciilifeform: tches, led to the nearly fatal overnight stay.'
asciilifeform: 'However, the door doesn’t automatically unlock when the interior handle is pulled—and therein lay the problem for the Smiths. According to the Times, the couple had been led to believe by their Mazda dealership that the key fob was the only way to unlock the doors; this mistaken impression, coupled with the fact that the vehicle was parked in their garage and that it was apparently too dark to clearly see the interior swi
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It takes time for assbot to update the rectum
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Luke-Jr!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr. Trust relationship from user assbot to user luke-jr: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 6 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=luke-jr | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=luke-jr | Rated since: Sat Feb 5 12:37:04 2011
assbot: New Zealand couple manages to lock themselves in keyless car for 13 hours | Ars Technica ... ( http://bit.ly/1JcwsWl )
BingoBoingo: http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/12/new-zealand-couple-manages-to-lock-themselves-in-keyless-car-for-13-hours/
Luke-Jr: it doesn't force you to unmerge stuff either, and should notify you when there's an update being masked
undata_: Luke-Jr: they will if I mask your turds
Luke-Jr: BingoBoingo: kakobrekla is the one trolling :p
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Luke-Jr!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr. Trust relationship from user assbot to user luke-jr: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 5 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=luke-jr | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=luke-jr | Rated since: Sat Feb 5 12:37:04 2011
PeterL: so the change to voicing you are suggesting, we now need to join something like #bitcoin-otc, then auth with gribble, then we can join #bitcoin-assets, then we still need to pm assbot '!up'?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: not only for ops, either
kakobrekla: is there some override for invite for ops?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, given the height of the post and its location in SOuthern Illinois, probably the latter.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reference to 'oregon trail' colonists, or to breaking on the wheel ?
BingoBoingo remembers for the longest time in childhood the hometown having a metal wagon wheel fascimile supported on a post in the town square
BingoBoingo: [censored] all of the keys
BingoBoingo: I think having had a GPG key fingerprint on an MPEx listed contract is the rough equivalent of a commision so asciilifeform at the worst you are probaby a captain by now.
BingoBoingo: Everyone needs to eat their vegetables from time to time though
kakobrekla: i think the main issue is he wont be able to take credit.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if mp likes n00bs, then let's see if he agrees that this should make their ordeal more rational (if not lighter) than it is currently.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It depends on the kind of restaurant. I am pretty sure some restaurants would be intolerable if it wasn't for heavy smoking.
asciilifeform: i'm not sure whether the fact of something being planted in an 'eyes' country or not is even interesting. it's like the old saw about how a smoking section in a restaurant is quite like a pissing section in swimming pool.
undata_: or rather, owned by
undata_: hosted in a five-eyes country might be another :p
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you probably know, but this is not the only problem with fleanode.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, there are ideas. If a new network popped up parachute would be likely. Seems though that the root of current problem is freenode baring IPs and lacking any controling entity that could be convinced to do otherwise.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: we're discussing perhaps a ~1kb patch to kako's bot, rather than a serious project
BingoBoingo: Seems whole new IRC network is the solution instead of arguing freenode +i vs. +m conventions
kakobrekla: well you manually invite a 'new guy' take the chance it doesnt work out, you need some means to get rid of it?
kakobrekla: and hypothetically given we have l2 +i, do we still need +m?
asciilifeform: decimation: if you give a damn, it was called - on my own machine, which at present, is the only place it exists - 'kapelle'
decimation: asciilifeform: I guess I missed the name, what is it?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: they are not necessarily to be refused, but there ought to be slightly higher expectations of work for the n00b to do in order to merit invite
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: how many of these we get now ?
asciilifeform: the observation that, on account of the log existing, we don't need human idlers for anything at all, was correct
decimation: I thought cloak fails were associated with users who aren't sasl authed
BingoBoingo: TomServo: THese things happen
asciilifeform: incidentally, what do we need unvoiced users for at all? noobs can find the log www, and figure out who to pm from it
kakobrekla: nah pretty much everything these days has 'autorejoin' option
decimation: is it possible to 'hook' ChanServ to intercept joins before they happen?
asciilifeform: i like the idea of nuking drooling idlers who have no visible purpose
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: no. that just relocates the roaches, not kills.
decimation: which would basically require being personally known to someone in the wot
asciilifeform: !s the cold equations
asciilifeform: among others
decimation: Like bitcoin, the wot database is going to grow forever
asciilifeform: you don't kill folks with a nuke by rolling it and crushing them under it
decimation: really I guess that's the same solution as Mr. Luke-jr
asciilifeform: so mr spam will walk them.
decimation: nanotube might consider deleting wot ID's that haven't authed in a period of time
decimation: there is an incentive to do this anyway
decimation: what about unseen nicks who are authed by gribble?
decimation: I don't get the point to idling on a logged channel (without voice)
asciilifeform: the idlers who 'i'll join a hundred bitcoin-related channels, they're all the same to me!' are contemptible.
asciilifeform: now they will have a reason to ask.
asciilifeform: and i can only speak for myself, but i neglect voicing people because they don't ask.
decimation: kakobrekla: one way around that issue would be to kick anyone who isn't in the wot (not L2)
asciilifeform: they are already casualties.
kakobrekla: yes, but. kick wont do, you have to ban the idler or else it just rejoins. secondly, if we fail to voice ppl which we kinda do, they will be casualties.
decimation: people outside of L2 can read the logs
asciilifeform: that was, i think, the idea.
asciilifeform: others - only long enough to see who to ask for voice.
asciilifeform: then we have a fungus among us.
kakobrekla: but bot can get in the wot.
asciilifeform: so then.
kakobrekla: i think the least damaging way is to kick nicks that are idle sing sing-on
asciilifeform: 'amplification' idiocy is trivially tested for, and any isp which doesn't yank the offending lusers ought by all rights to be killed upstream
asciilifeform: there's just a sea of idiot boxes that should have been booted from the net long ago.
asciilifeform: but there isn't a 'botnet'
assbot: Logged on 16-12-2014 01:04:22; asciilifeform: from the department of nyooz yoo can yooze - kakobrekla provided data from which we learn that ddos man has switched from ssdp to ntp 'amplification' attack (see literature.)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there isn't a bot.
BingoBoingo: Walk away with chumpnet, implement new bot, other things too prolly
asciilifeform: of course, this is largely a waste of time when one can simply walk away with the chumpnet (entirely unsecured, as discussed in past thread on subject)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: here's an elegant, though likewise unsporting pill against ddosman. require anyone outside of L1 to enter uncloaked on pain of instakick. there will be a set of 'lurkers' remaining who never die. among them will be our hero, who is then readily deduced.
Adlai: it could be that the ddoser is not ddosing himself. or that he's not ddosing people belonging to his site. or that he picks targets randomly, to give the illusion of unknown patterns.
asciilifeform: but where'd be the sport in that.
ikeboy: I'm going now, but the betmoose is here for anyone betmoose.com/bet/paycoin-to-be-worth-at-least-_01-btc-in-2015-1049
Adlai: oh look it's another cryptsy
Adlai: "worth" is the key word. it could be worth $30 on the bucket shops that choose to list it, but zero to the rest of the world.
Adlai: whatever happened to the real peepeecoin. nobody wants to trade their overpriced shitcoins for kilos of processed manure?
BingoBoingo: Adlai: Well It's a fork of peercoin. The code was already there just needed magic number tweaks. Also Peercoin was cooler when it was still called PeePeeCoin
Adlai: "don't believe in paycoin" doesn't translate cleanly to "willing to bet on a subset of the possible failure scenarios, as opposed to all others"
Adlai: of course i believe in paycoin. it is the vehicle through which the prophet garza will lead the people from usury and incest to riches and glory
ikeboy: ok, but they were trying to convince me that buying now to sell at $20 on monday is a bad idea
BingoBoingo: <ikeboy> And people who were trying to convince me not to buy paycoin should be willing to put money behind that << Not everyone who think Paycoin is a shit idea wants the same two week window you do.
cazalla: not if you're unable to find someone to bet against, i'd take the sure thing while you can lol
cazalla: buy more paycoin then, sure bet!
thestringpuller: well then
gribble: Error: We broke The Google!
ikeboy: If you mean I can make more this way than by investing in paycoin directly, then yes
thestringpuller: it seems the only reason you want odds if for extended leverage.
ikeboy: What's the problem? too small?
thestringpuller: yea, there is your problem small fry.
ikeboy: i don't know, i've made money on fairlay, but not in the amounts I want to bet on this
BingoBoingo: Well, the thing is... Which betting platform actually brings... bettors with money to the bets?
ikeboy: besides, i think the market would mostly agree with me, but there were some people on irc that didn't, so i want to get money out of them
ikeboy: afaik, that's the only thing giving it value right now, the expectation of a payout on monday
ikeboy: They claim that they will buy any coins for $20 starting monday. If they don't, it will probably drop
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> <BingoBoingo> RagnarDanneskjol: Nice site http://thelogdailyreport.com/ << who is this? << That's RagnarDanneskjol
BingoBoingo: <punkman> non-denominational is like the cheez whiz of religion << Some "non-denominational" churches seem to be the most "extreme" to be polite
mod6: I still have a bit more testing to complete before the end of the month, but hopefully will get some additionally time over the remaining 13 days to debug more.
mod6: obv. a lot smaller and only seems to grow up to ~60 log files until it flushes them out.
mod6: here's a snippit of what my .bitcoin/database dir looks like with the BDB patch compiled in:
mod6: i'll find out, one way or another.
mod6: well, indeed, that could be the case.
mike_c: i'm no boost fan, but it seems more likely it is in the usage of boost rather than the library itself.
mod6: And perhaps could squash that bug at the same time. I need to do more work with gdb while it's sync'ing up to try to get a more accurate picture.
mod6: I just have a gut-feeling that perhaps as discussed in here before some of these leak problems stem from BOOST, which will be a pita to remove, but a requirement.
mod6: But yeah, it's still has some leaks in there somewhere, as the R.I. died at least 2 different times from 1->current block, but no more than 3 times. Eitherway, this needs to get resolved. But at least we're headed in the right direction.
mod6: here's a snippit of what my 300Gb disk looked like with only the dbenv.set_lk_max_locks looked like:
mod6: So I looked into what they have set up in v0.9 and it more closely resembles that second dpaste above. If you guys would like to review a bit before I post these to the list, that'd be awesome.
mod6: I was able to get upto the current block 2 different times with patches 1->5 (which includes ascii's patches, ben's patch, and my removal of checkpoints) with two seperate bdb configs. The first one just changed this: dbenv.set_lk_max_locks(40000); But ended up with a huge amount of BDB tx log files.