mircea_popescu: which ius no different from the current situation
asciilifeform: worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?
asciilifeform: during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?
mircea_popescu: lol. the actual ship mircea is an old barque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_(ship)
asciilifeform: a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
asciilifeform: let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
asciilifeform: well then:
asciilifeform: rather than permanent blockchain-style world record
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations.
mircea_popescu: and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
mircea_popescu: the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.
mircea_popescu: moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
mircea_popescu: in the sense your friend sayus he does.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
mircea_popescu: than sign a contract there.
mircea_popescu: well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
mircea_popescu: do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?
artifexd: Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
artifexd: Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
artifexd: Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
artifexd: There is not. I took that as an oversight.
mircea_popescu: each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing.
artifexd: Ok. The layers are forming in my head.
Apocalyptic: how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?
artifexd: I refreshed the post page. :)
mircea_popescu: a there it is.
assbot: Russian hedge fund founder disappears with all the firm's money. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0GYd )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/01/05/russian_hedge_fund_founder_disappears_with_all_the_firm_s_money.html?wpisrc=obnetwork << another mega-lol from same site
BingoBoingo: lol at Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2015/01/06/pegida_marches_xenophobia_is_going_mainstream_in_germany.html
assbot: Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.
asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.
asciilifeform: before i learned of the wot that we now use.
mircea_popescu: the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.
mircea_popescu: which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.
mircea_popescu: there is no center wot.
asciilifeform: inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's in the hello message.
mircea_popescu: how you slice the 99% is uninteresting.
asciilifeform: through the ravages of time
asciilifeform: except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish
artifexd: The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
asciilifeform: even when they are.
mircea_popescu: yes, because they're not signed nor crypted.
asciilifeform: the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.
asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
mircea_popescu: this is what the definition of "Slow" is.
asciilifeform: this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
asciilifeform: the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.
artifexd: Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
asciilifeform: notice you don't have to store the chain permanently
Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
mircea_popescu: the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
artifexd: If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)
asciilifeform: there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.
asciilifeform: thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.
asciilifeform: if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.
artifexd: I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
artifexd: Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.
asciilifeform: hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.
asciilifeform: and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.'
asciilifeform: that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point
asciilifeform: artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol'
asciilifeform: artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while trilema is down
asciilifeform: mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't
mike_c: just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D
Apocalyptic: the page is too successful
asciilifeform: they're approximately what ssl is.
asciilifeform: 'pwnable' isn't even the right word
asciilifeform: must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
ben_vulpes: i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density.
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?
mircea_popescu: suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
mircea_popescu: (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)
hanbot: BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
ben_vulpes: i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
mircea_popescu: the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,
mircea_popescu: the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
assbot: Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash
asciilifeform: artifexd, mircea_popescu, others - http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111242
BingoBoingo: Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.
BingoBoingo: From there... party time.
BingoBoingo: First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: There are ways...
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?
asciilifeform: artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.
asciilifeform: if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session.
asciilifeform: artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end.
asciilifeform: i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)
artifexd: So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.
mircea_popescu: but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
mircea_popescu: artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
assbot: While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US http://t.co/8dl6qpPjUM
mircea_popescu: artifexd use one more then, i answer't.
artifexd: refreshing the page to see new comments does.
asciilifeform: if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake.
asciilifeform: not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem
mircea_popescu: and they'll fail.
mircea_popescu: dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.
asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
asciilifeform: answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger.
mircea_popescu: so then.
asciilifeform: me neither
mircea_popescu: and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.
mircea_popescu: but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp
asciilifeform: i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited.
mircea_popescu: if the owner wieshes, sure.
asciilifeform: i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy
asciilifeform: if he is not physically sitting on the wire
mircea_popescu: it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)
mircea_popescu: another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.
asciilifeform: artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global.
asciilifeform: artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try
mircea_popescu: improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.
artifexd: It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.
artifexd: Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.
asciilifeform: 'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb)
mircea_popescu: should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".
mircea_popescu: on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".
asciilifeform: not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up.
mircea_popescu: no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.
mircea_popescu: let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.
mircea_popescu: artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"
asciilifeform: artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points.
asciilifeform: artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything.
artifexd: As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.
asciilifeform: incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob.
mircea_popescu: everything can be bought of the shelf neh ?
artifexd: Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?
asciilifeform: the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos'
asciilifeform: if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so
mircea_popescu: but otherwisew this is supposed to work today.
mircea_popescu: ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation
asciilifeform: but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level
asciilifeform: it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education.
asciilifeform: artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform.
asciilifeform: this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years.
asciilifeform: the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon.
asciilifeform: artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B.
assbot: * - Breaking one or more of the following policies will get you * - /Kill'ed an - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c2d0 )
kakobrekla: >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).
kakobrekla: yeah you basically invented ethereum or something
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by hanbot: http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-xoom-theft-and-the-future-of-the-dollar/
mircea_popescu: reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.
mircea_popescu: (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)
asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)
assbot: Full Disclosure: The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo ofirc.freenode.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3aRdz )
mircea_popescu: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/843 << old lilo drama, if anyone's unsatisfied by the piles of bitcoin drama we have fresh on tap.
asciilifeform: as well as the actual punishments.
mircea_popescu: such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.
mircea_popescu: i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.
asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot'
mircea_popescu: artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.
asciilifeform: artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ?
artifexd: mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?
asciilifeform: but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly.
mircea_popescu: what there isn't is "forbidden types of content"
asciilifeform: wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator
mircea_popescu: it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.
asciilifeform: there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c
mircea_popescu: but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly.
mircea_popescu: they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,
mircea_popescu: i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.
asciilifeform: well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate'
kakobrekla: prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days.
asciilifeform: there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site)
kakobrekla: i dont care enough to check the logs.
asciilifeform: one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere.
asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question
asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ?
mircea_popescu: so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there.
asciilifeform: the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ?
mircea_popescu: afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that
BingoBoingo: Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues
muh_buttcoins: is speculating on the price discouraged here
asciilifeform: 'PARASTOO IS INFORMING THAT "CPLD AND FPGA BITSTREAMS" RUNNING THE SECURITY MODULES IN BOTH GROUND STATIONS AND MANY OF THE HOVERING ACTUAL SATELLITES THAT ARE LINKED TO SOME TARGETED NOCs ARE FULLY DECRYPTED ..AND WE FOUND -- WHILE DOING SATANIC LAUGHS -- SOME OF THESE UGLY CODES ARE NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH BASIC NIST'S FIPS SECURITY GRADE GIVEN TO THESE PRODUCTS WITH $+APPLAUSE .'
asciilifeform: or rather, at any time could have been hitler, but previously the fuhrer would have been required to put in a little sweat and pwn fleanode wholesale, whereas now he just needs to break nickserv
asciilifeform: well yes. but it is 'duct tape' for the cloak thing.
mircea_popescu: "Saudi Arabia shipped 54 percent of its crude oil exports to Asia in 2013, with another 17 percent to the United States, according to Saudi Aramco's annual report. It shipped just 5.4 percent to Europe and 6.7 percent to the Mediterranean. In total, crude exports ran at 6.8 million bpd."
asciilifeform: (incidentally, at least every other fleanode host has broken 'sasl' auth. learn which ones, if your client has 'auto-connect' to #b-a)
asciilifeform: the node i was plugged into - is dead now.
mircea_popescu: depression : just another public service i offer.
asciilifeform: 'going the way of linux' << depressing
asciilifeform: 'here's a lesson all must learn: first you pillage, then you burn'
mircea_popescu: i always hope on the side of getting to do some raping. and pillaging.
mircea_popescu: and the us muppets are currently shivering to death in a "democratic" ukraine that CLEARLY had to have its block sizes increased.
mircea_popescu: the us has a lengthy history of getting involved in wars it can't afford
hanbot: thx thestringpuller
mircea_popescu: akisora this was always the case.
Apocalyptic: akisora, coinbase transactions, not "Coinbase" the company
akisora: What the fuck is that? lol
akisora: In the article linked in the reddit thestringpuller posted Gavin said "2. There are special rules for 'coinbase' transactions: there can be only one coinbase transaction per block, it must be the first transaction, etc."
akisora: did Gavin just say there are special rules for coinbase??
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller the lulzy part in there is "clearly the thing that's not needed but we kept repeating that it is, is in fact needed. because...uh..."
asciilifeform: (double-spend on the 'actual' net, naturally)
thestringpuller: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/ << these comments are giving me brain cancer
asciilifeform: the only way enemy could win this hypothetical engagement is if he can set his fork up to 'catabolically break down' the original bitcoin network ( mircea_popescu's army on the board )
mircea_popescu: even the statal actors have a limited budget.
jurov: i see. so you are certain these entities are mostly motivated by profit.
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic kako's argument needs a "and the govt will print money and give it to them. forever" companion.
jurov: we don't know who the damn miners actually are anymore
Apocalyptic: this falls to kako's argument "they can't do math"
mircea_popescu: the block rewards keeps going down. how are they going to make money if there's no pressure on txn to pay ? is gavin going to give them it ?
mircea_popescu: jurov this discussion entirely elides the more important point of "why in the fuck would miners even consider a proposal that inflates their main ware".
asciilifeform: but the entire problem is entirely avoidable
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: they will succumb to the temptation of running the entire demon, and not merely a proxy, on the 'bouncer.'
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: there are folks about (some even in #b-a) who have a habit of using something other than an actual computer for their daily work (i won't point fingers)
kakobrekla: (for the purpose of bouncer)
mircea_popescu: otherwise, miner farms are actually pretty stretched as it is, financially.
mircea_popescu: they work... barely.
kakobrekla: they will in fact mine with ev-
mircea_popescu: not what i've been hearing from teh chinese folks on the topic, but w/e, gavin's more than welcome to persevere in his usg-is-the-world delusions.
kakobrekla: cause they cant do math.