mircea_popescu: they are only a thing while in mempool. but once they're in the block, they melt away.
decimation: so to be clear - before block 3 is verified, 1testaddress1 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress2, and 1testaddress2 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress3? Is that the issue?
mircea_popescu: they do not. transactions once included are no longer a thing.
jurov: no i'm trying to explain transactions maintain their identity in blocks
mircea_popescu: they can "prepare" your tx, but for my formalism, it ios "created" once 1.
jurov: they can be all included at once (but not in reverse order)
mircea_popescu: jurov but only once the previous is included.
jurov: but as 0conf transaction can be checked against other 0conf transactions (remmeber satoshidice?)
jurov: they may even not yet be in block
jurov: you singlehandedly rejected the wiki link so you know better?
jurov: mircea_popescu: pls closer describe your idea of checking the transaction. maybe there lies the problem
mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node makes sure it did what it pleased within bounds, and off it goes.
mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node keeps a db, the bitcoind wallet selects what it wants and does what it pleases.
ben_vulpes: the bitcoind *node* doesn't give a whit about transaction creation
mircea_popescu: bitcoind-the full node /
ben_vulpes: which is the transaction creation process.
jurov: you must exactly name all these 10 inputs!
jurov: because addresses aren't the atomic units
mircea_popescu: if you know that block 2 is verified, and you know that 1testadress1 is the 1testaddress1, what more do you need to check ?
jurov: to get these keys
mircea_popescu: well the block 3 tx i named as "proposed" is a 0 conf.
jurov: if it's laready mined, then someone else verified it
ben_vulpes: jurov: a transaction in a block contains the public key iirc
jurov: having whole block wont help you, you need the utxo public key
mircea_popescu: jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack.
mircea_popescu: you can, for the sake of being silly, talk of "transactions included in valud blocks" but it really doens';t mean anythinmg. a block is a block.
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "a valid transaction". merely, a valid block.
mircea_popescu: maybe these other words work better : "transactions" is a useful notion when adding data to blocks. it is in no way useful, or even existent, when verifying anything. all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.
mircea_popescu: you can't have a valid txn in an otherwise invalid block.
jurov: you said it's the user's job to
mircea_popescu: by looking at their inputs, an the inputs for those inputs, all the way to the valid coinbases involved.
jurov: how else you want to check relayed transactions from other nodes?
jurov: mircea_popescu: but it also means it will relay all shit imaginable, you regard it as convenience otherwise?
mircea_popescu: if you check you check. if you don't check, then don't check.
mircea_popescu: and i don't give a shit how convenient it is. let userland cut down the correct implementation for the sake of convenience.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes once a transaction is proposed, the software has two options. 1) "oh , this looks like a tx involving inputs i remember were valid" and 2) "these are the inputs. check. these are their sources. check. these are their sources. check. this is the coinbase. check. ok."
jurov: ^all of them
ben_vulpes: to verify a new transaction, one needs the previous transaction in hand, in entirety.
jurov: and to do it you need to find all the inputs, if i understand ben_vulpes correctly
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then how "not really" ?
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> txn are verifiable aren't they. << not really. transaction only includes txid of previous transaction which itself has the pubkey required for validation.
jurov: so, it will allow me to relay 1000 doublespend transactions with different destination addresses, because it can't check if the source isn't spent already?
mircea_popescu: txn are verifiable aren't they.
mircea_popescu: modular fucking design, so you doin't have to change the whole thing every time a part sucks [for your usecase]
mircea_popescu: trying to invent a "this is the right way" because we're the power rangers isn't the way
ben_vulpes: another claim, for your consideration
mircea_popescu: bitcoind should put the blocks into an accessible database. the querying of that thing is the job of the user.
jurov: okay, so for one to have complete stack, run something like electrum server that maintains the tx index and connects only to our node
ben_vulpes: so i made two claims, let's treat them seperately
mircea_popescu: no point in importing nonsense into the future.
mircea_popescu: suppose you somehow DO actually want 32mb blocks. how long does a rescan take then ?
mircea_popescu: design is not a consideratio nof "how long does it take to bale the water out"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how long does a "rescan" take these days?
mircea_popescu: jurov so you maintain them.
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that in order to call someone, having the phone number is not a big deal. having a passing answer for "who's this ?" is.
mircea_popescu: it's not unlike the "idea" to maintain a list of the phone numbers of the entire planet.
ben_vulpes: with the utxo list in hand, a node could create a raw transaction for signing by an offline node.
ben_vulpes: i think that maintaining the utxo list is a good idea.
mircea_popescu: Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah << boys are wearing the stupid face veil thing too now ?!
ben_vulpes: correct me if i'm wrong, but address balance is the sum of unspent transactions to that public key.
ben_vulpes: it's a much more tractable problem to find transactions relevant to a given address out of that list than it is to walk the blockchain for same.
ben_vulpes: if the node were to maintain the list of unspent transaction outputs, it would also have a list of the TXID's with unspent outputs.
jurov: well, but if you attach a wallet to the node, it will need to crawl whole blockchain to get its transactions?
mircea_popescu: "a CPU profile of the time spent processing a 32 MB block by a full node is dominated by ECDSA signature verification, meaning that with the current infrastructure and computer hardware, scaling above 300 tps would require a clustered full node where ECDSA signature checking is load balanced across multiple machines."
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand. << one can make his own emacs scripts do whatever one wants. notthe job of emacs to provide a preloaded button for arbitrary tasks.
mircea_popescu: davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase" << seriously ? like a power chord that's not six inches long ?
ben_vulpes: not the best english, but what american knows how to write well anyways?
mats: p sure he's referring to the twitter isis brigade.
kakobrekla: >PS: If the #ISIS jihad can...
ben_vulpes: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2015/01/the-wahhabi-wet-dream.html << related
assbot: Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah http://t.co/DpkdwrsdmE
ben_vulpes: when i made furniture, we went out of our way to put cunts into the woodworking.
ben_vulpes: "a single machine acting as a full node" << conformal has yet to answer any questions re: what the specs of this "machine" were.
assbot: btcsim: simulating the rise of Bitcoin | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1D49Pim )
ben_vulpes: another netsplit?
ben_vulpes: my reasoning being that iterating through the blocks is adequate to get complex information out of the thing, and that producing unspent outputs is adequate for "bitcoinating" - eg, producing and signing transactions.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand.
davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase"
ben_vulpes: davout: yeah let me tell you about the manual checks in the billing process to catch rounding errors
davout: ben_vulpes: apple numbers is unsuited for math either, it uses floats...
ben_vulpes: <jurov> [] hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?" << i have actually used this one
jurov: http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block some nice graphs
diametric: asciilifeform: in context of the wood dong guy, he could vary height with the intensity as well, but it becomes really, really apparently its lasered because the edges are always charred
jurov: hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?"
mircea_popescu: anyway, off to buy the tombstone, bbl.
jurov: never late to plan for the occassion, isn't it?
mircea_popescu: no, but nevertheless!
hanbot: http://trilema.com/2014/the-womans-job/ since we're on it
hanbot: well i remember the trilema post in which the woman's duty to write a eulogy, suck cock, and wash socks was outlined
jurov: hanbot remember the trilema post that spouse of deceased man is useless except to write the obituary?
Bagels7: well i know how men act like, i grew up with only a father, and all my aunts married passified men probably after they fucked a bunch of alpha's
mircea_popescu: they'd at best amuse actual men.
mircea_popescu: only to the eyes of someone who has no idea what men act like.
mircea_popescu: hardly worth the mention.
Bagels7: No, the differences between the sexes are breachable. some men sit down to pee because their mother made them
Bagels7: oh so you have no problem when the sexes are reversed. neat
Bagels7: well there was a bunch of stuff i didn't agree with that you said but I forgot what it was
mircea_popescu: punkman gotta work on your timing then
Bagels7: but not the ones that people think
mircea_popescu: so then we're both sexists.
mircea_popescu: Bagels7 yes, i believe there is strict and unbreachable difference between the sexes.
assbot: Notes on Increasing the Maximum Bitcoin Block Size (or, "Why it ain't happenin'") ... ( http://bit.ly/18cmvKG )
mircea_popescu: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/25_notes-on-increasing-the-maximum-bitcoin-block-size-or-why-it-aint-happenin.html << hey ben_vulpes did gavin ever respond to that one ?
punkman: http://36.media.tumblr.com/ddd24abce6f5955b395f09174b57e033/tumblr_nhxg7iISA81tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg << hey I've been there!
mircea_popescu: also because they're good subbies ? who knows.
Bagels7: hello mircea. why do you post naked women every once in a while? and why do they always have their arms down in that pose
assbot: The Bitcoin Foundation (Or: La Serenissima Tilts at Windmills, or: So You Want to Hack on Bitcoin, or: The Bitcoin Tax) ... ( http://bit.ly/18ckgXJ )
mircea_popescu: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/11/09_the-bitcoin-foundation-or-la-serenissima-tilts-at-windmills-or-so-you-want-to-hack-on-bitcoin-or-the-bitcoin-tax.html
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.14434281 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )
ben_vulpes: i was entreated by a girl to "block some sites" on her computer. jezebel, gawker, others.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script << funny, this
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] "the people" are simply stupider than they were even twenty years ago. << stupider? or more?
ben_vulpes: the new iphones are lolariously large
ben_vulpes: the mourning cry is "steve is dead"
ben_vulpes: the "calculator" in 10.10 uses javascript
ben_vulpes: they have this hilarious "spreadsheet" program "Numbers" that not just disregards 20 years of spreadsheet UI finessing, but also disregards their own text input conventions.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions << tell me about it
ben_vulpes: prevailing opinion being that there's no point in making a high quality computing product...yet
pete_dushenski: thestringpuller: :)
ben_vulpes: (the notion that a high grade product like coffee, or chocolate can be made in bulk, in such a way to appeal to the masses...well, this is old hat around here, right?)
thestringpuller: i can live your life and my life at the same damn time
thestringpuller: pete_dushenski: you money and my money ain't the same damn kind
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski runny colors are pretty much the identifying mark of this here cunt
pete_dushenski: though the colours are sure to run
pete_dushenski: o shit they're that good ?!
pete_dushenski: and be the palest, most lacklustre green
pete_dushenski: i imagine that cultpeas would all be the exact same size, zero variation
ben_vulpes: i was hoping for someone outside of the echo chamber.
mircea_popescu: he's gonna end up a sort of Bertrand Levy of the republican times.
mircea_popescu: Despite their references to the successes of King Louis XIV, both of these books are still yoked by the exact same horse-blindering Churchillian reverence for all that is broad-franchise democracy, and in particular its always-in-tow little brothers, socialism and inflation. << this guy.
ben_vulpes: <mats> [] ive been here a while and i still can't get over the high class white pussy strolling the streets << take any home yet?
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.16685513 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it's like 4pm wtf are you on about lol
thestringpuller stays up all night looking for answers on the computer.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller cuz bingo sleeps!
nubbins`: thestringpuller scroll up
nubbins`: i actually am sorry the forum crashed
nubbins`: funny cos that WC guy definitely spent 100% of the last couple days panicking and dealing w/ this
mircea_popescu: keepos the blood going
mircea_popescu: lol then by all means.
nubbins`: lotta paper prints these days, and paper air-dries 8)
mircea_popescu: nubbins` well, as the alternative usage spreads the article will become easier to read.
nubbins`: can't say that pr's personal responsibility post wasn't clattering around the back of my mind while i was making rube jerky
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: random: you would like the show shameless.
decimation: I had a friend who grew up around actual black people working in the fields in the south circa ~1960; they were called niggers and called themselves niggers without offense
mircea_popescu: for the record, the definition of nigger is in http://trilema.com/2013/fried-chicken/
decimation: in the negative sense anyway
decimation: yeah, it turns out yale owns the words
mircea_popescu: what, i can't take a libertard word and redefine it to cash in on their investment ?
nubbins`: mircea_popescu tbh your post went a bit off the rails when you started ranting about niggers, but otherwise reasonably well put together
mircea_popescu: oh, the LAW is it.
nubbins`: how many tards are reading that and saying "sucks he lost his tresor!!!!" instead of "what the fuck, the cops siezed a voice recorder?!"
mircea_popescu: ie, if the network thinks block 2 is mined at 12:00, and your clock thinks it's 17:55, and then block three is, according to the network, mined at 12:11 but your clock thinks it's 18:22 you'll have a problem.
mircea_popescu: basically the bitcoin requirement is that your time is within ~10% ish of itself. so you can travel at up to 30Mm/sec.
mircea_popescu: decimation no, the ability to keep time within about a minute of what your previous idea of time was when the previous block was mined.
decimation: so the ability to run a clock within 1 min of other nodes worldwide is an implied requirement (or finding someone nearby with the same)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, et al : these boxes won't be ready for battlefield until seeding patch.
decimation: is time completely ignored in all the 'orphan' algorithms?
asciilifeform: the coax connectors are clock in/out
decimation: via the 'gps' system
decimation: indeed. or provisions for an external clock that has the same
mircea_popescu: basically they're running 1985 chinese wristwatches
asciilifeform: there are no 'professional' x86 boxes, only hypertrophied pc.
decimation: right, but usually the oscillator is a shitty plain quartz without temperature compensation
asciilifeform: decimation: and you still need an oscillator, given as the tick counter in cpu (x86-64 has one, but it is not a universal) can stop during low-power modes
decimation: the naming of time is a social phenomenon
decimation: better to have the money spent on upgrading the oscillator that drives the cpu, so that accurate time can be kept in the short-run
decimation: re: clocks in computers << yes, the "RTC" chip with its shitty lithium battery and low-quality quartz is pointless
mircea_popescu: the hound too houndy for your taste ?
mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me7vlhQ22u1qejludo1_1280.jpg << on their arms and knees.
mircea_popescu: <decimation> asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left. << quite.
asciilifeform: decimation: there are only so many cabs in new york to drive.
decimation: asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left.
asciilifeform: hence, the enthusiastic suckers of usg cock are faced with waging war on everything that distinguishes their country from african pisshole
asciilifeform: in latvia, estonia, situation is somewhat 'ukraininan' in that the industrial/scientific productive folks are solidly ru-speaking (if not actual ru)
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the men of lithuania idem
decimation: I had a professor from Warsaw in EE undergrad: he had a joke: what do you call Prof. Zak in an f-16? Simple Pole in the complex plane?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes http://40.media.tumblr.com/8e788c436213452d04f56f5664ca46e3/tumblr_ncbcyt46ni1sffpvxo1_1280.jpg << now there is a REAL burning man!
asciilifeform: interesting example of latvia, where, iirc, the greater share of adult men are on 'european tour' (sweeping floors in germany for hourly wage)
mircea_popescu: the baltic states are a complicated matter.
asciilifeform: decimation: they would have to confront the fact that %xx of the adult men are pro-soviet
asciilifeform: the baltic nazis were rather miffed when they learned what their role in nato would be (human shields, corpse-carriers) on account of lacking actual armies
decimation: "In the meantime, Lithuania is slowly strengthening its military apparatus, aiming to raise defense spending to 1.1 percent of GDP this year, and to NATO's own recommended target of 2 percent by 2020."
pete_dushenski: well then, lol!
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski that is the lol.
mircea_popescu: they should have had a plan to flee to finland.
mircea_popescu: they are.
mircea_popescu: a there you go Alina-malina
asciilifeform: i'll point out that it is not necessary to use the uart on pogo unless you seriously botch the install.
asciilifeform: decimation: i think i linked the photo here. at any rate the uart is plain as daylight on this board.
assbot: Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Installation on the Pogoplug Series 4 ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnX2aE )
decimation: asciilifeform: re: pogoplug << http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2284 Arch linux dufus parade has a thread that shows the location of a uart
decimation: yeah I would say that the unicomp strikes me as 'plastic-y'
asciilifeform: decimation: the two habitual mac users i work with just threw out their unicomps (i think they were..) and bought actual 'model m' each.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: economists would say that this is the function of specialisation in an economy ;)
assbot: President Obama Nominates Seven to the United States District Courts | The White House ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWhOX )
decimation: mircea_popescu: re: judge who threw confused girl in jail for 4 years << nope he is a yale grad http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/14/president-obama-nominates-seven-united-states-district-courts
asciilifeform: this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the customary mapping, iirc, is capslock->ctrl, ctrl->cmd, alt->option
pete_dushenski: a small barrier to entry, but a barrier nonetheless
mircea_popescu: no, it is NOT because of "inflated expectations". it is because of the barnacle effect. the world consists of a productive minority and a leechy majority. once a small elegant system becomes known, the previously uninformed majority now has a gradient to inform it. so they swarm the 2nd system, and barnacle it to all hell.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: second-system effect << almost invariably discussed in the context of 'multics'
pete_dushenski: unicomp has all the normal mac keys
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: another $5 or so buys converter box
mircea_popescu: "The second-system effect (also known as second-system syndrome) is the tendency of small, elegant, and successful systems to have elephantine, feature-laden monstrosities as their successors due to inflated expectations."
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: my guess is the usb
mircea_popescu: the latter point, i bet.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: what i utterly fail to grasp is why the 'unicomp' is even a thing, when actual 'model m' can be had for 20-50 usd. in working condition (if perhaps in need of a bath)
asciilifeform: castle - still there, afaik.
pete_dushenski: the unicomp that is
asciilifeform: everything else - the wolves.
pete_dushenski: i was mostly using the white/clear plastic 10-keyer
asciilifeform: the last decent one, irrc, was made somewhere around 1993
pete_dushenski: this is pretty much the subject of http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/26/living-in-a-post-steve-world/ as well
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: article is not the first i hear out of serious, habitual apple users re: decay.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions
mircea_popescu: but then again i put amsterdam in portugal once befoar, so...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it really hurt them, that one. because well... back in 2011 the notion that we come when we please, fuck whoever we want, and leave was novel.