decimation: asciilifeform: some guy uploaded a pre-wwii map into the pedi-wikia that plots the locations of functional german hamlets in european ru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Russia#mediaviewer/File:Russia_ethnic.JPG
assbot: Logged on 25-06-2014 15:27:40; ThickAsThieves: "bitcoin.org's content is managed by Saïvann Carignan, who is somewhat associated with the Foundation (though not an employee AFAIK), but the bitcoin.org domain name is jointly owned by me, Sirius, and an anonymous person. We will take action if bitcoin.org is being used inappropriately or the development group does something crazy." ~Theymos
punkman: coderwill: iirc bitcoin.org and bitcointalk.org are owned by some dude that for some reason lets various derps use them
coderwill: punkman: BF just pays a sponsorship fee to help cover the hosting costs, and to support saivann helping maintain it and a few other projects on there, they don't own it
punkman: coderwill, nobody will want anything to do with bitcoin.org or the foundation, sooner or later
coderwill: I was following a conversation on GitHub for Bitcoin.org, and found it interesting that Circle has explicitly requested to be removed from the site because it targets a different demographic from what they are searching for.
fluffypony: and then you can run as many wallet clients as you want
fluffypony: relays blocks / transactions, stores the blockchain, etc.
fluffypony: ben_vulpes: that's precisely the current Monero architecture
thestringpuller: Pretty much like an outage but there wasn't an outage at all, so it had to be DDOS.
ben_vulpes: there he is
nubbins`: ^ this is the creator messing with it
nubbins`: which you play in through the clock sync port
ben_vulpes: how does the sound get into it?
nubbins`: except they were kind enough to release an SDK, written in C, on github ;o
nubbins`: you could piss in this man's face and tell him his lips are dry, he'd reach for the balm
nubbins`: or just copying random words and pasting them into sentences
nubbins`: like... dude, are you even having the same conversation as us?
punkman: "In some conceivable but unlikely scenarios, you might see incoming transactions as having 6+ confirmations when the transactions are actually invalid"
assbot: Users of Bitcoin Core on Linux must not upgrade to the latest version of OpenSSL ... ( http://bit.ly/1JorZiI )
ben_vulpes: don't just stand there, man!
nubbins`: there
ben_vulpes: just write the regex okay?
ben_vulpes: you guys gotta stop bringing these scams around here
cazalla: pete_dushenski, everybody's talk at you but you can't hear a word they're saying.. just driving 'round in saddam's car
nubbins`: i suspect smoothie from the forums is kinda stupid
punkman: "Beyond that, this is the season when i import all my wood to get me through the next year. That means on average i have from 1 to 5 trucks showing up a week, 1 or 2 shipments coming through customs i need to keep on top of, and also a dozen employees to keep track of."
ben_vulpes: lol just here for the zingers
ben_vulpes: nubbins`: it actually shows the grain remarkably well, and nondestructively to boot
nubbins`: the start was v suspenseful
ben_vulpes: i scrubbed to 1 hour in, saw the burns, bailed
nubbins`: i guess it brings out the grain
nubbins`: i'm all "why didn't he laser the entire background if he's gonna do this?"
punkman: you could do the same job with a dull spoon I think
nubbins`: i'm tempted to go get the design laser etched onto a piece myself
ben_vulpes: nubbins` this comes back to the trouble of identifying malice vs incompetence
nubbins`: maybe the man is mentally ill
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: parked for the weekend
nubbins`: punkman i'm not sure why nobody is mentioning that the design is already laser etched into the fuckin piece when the video starts
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: how's the ride?
mircea_popescu: i thought the ddos derp crapped out earlier.
mircea_popescu: there's a book "luxury rotary bits management" you should read.
punkman: http://hyperfool.com/ufcknubbins.mp4 < lol this guy, 1 hour to carve one huge N and he can't even do a straight line. just digging on the wood with all the wrong rotarytool bits.
ben_vulpes: certainly not hang out with the asshats.
ben_vulpes: it's amusing to watch everyone manually patch the closed source turdball to cope with each successive os x upgrade
ben_vulpes: amusingly, oleg andreev abandoned the only decent gui client for 'git' on os x
mircea_popescu: or whatever other random css expert gavin found on fiverr.
assbot: Notes on Increasing the Maximum Bitcoin Block Size (or, "Why it ain't happenin'") ... ( http://bit.ly/1C0aT9M )
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/25_notes-on-increasing-the-maximum-bitcoin-block-size-or-why-it-aint-happenin.html << hey ben_vulpes did gavin ever respond to that one ? << hey this one actually doesn't read too poorly a few months later
ben_vulpes: "main chain" << the ambiguous bit?
mircea_popescu: "the winner of world war three was a good man, right ?
mircea_popescu: you're talking of ambiguous things as if they were specified.
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> then it'd be heiress Herrin Herring << who opens up an earing shop, obviously
mircea_popescu: " do ops frantically get on the horn to get their block into the long chain?" << through that process.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: menahem was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 11 weeks, 3 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <menahem> lemme verify my id again. brb, heading to an office space. gracias for the welcome.
hanbot: <ben_vulpes> how was the strip club, hanbot? << no buttered strip clubs for me, thanks, i'm off to play the grand piano
mircea_popescu: in practice either whichever they hear first or whichever has better likely outcomes
mircea_popescu: from the protocol pov, it's arbitrary.
ben_vulpes: anyways, how does this work in practice: 2 mining pools release a block (B, C), building off the prev (A) - do miners arbitrarily choose which child block to continue building on?
mircea_popescu: then it'd be heiress Herrin Herring
ben_vulpes: that's how the staff'll address my she-spawn
pete_dushenski: then he said "oh, what about this conference?" and i told him to leave a comment if he was interested
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: anyways, mitch sends me the off pgp-gram, and i recently sent him to the trilema jobs board
pete_dushenski: his shop did the new website for cavirtex
nubbins`: he actually posted the video hey
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: mitch runs a little coding shop, they do some web design as well
mircea_popescu: WHERES THE VIDEOS NUBBINZ
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski nothing in particular, just the general.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: anything in particular you'd like to know about your interested participant for the conference?
ben_vulpes: they're already cut loose. can't get into b-a
mircea_popescu: what do we do once they simply start repeating names ?
mircea_popescu: they both scammed.
mircea_popescu: no. they're different, however,
mircea_popescu: CAVirtex, Canadas largest and oldest Bitcoin online exchange, is facing a potential class action lawsuit to the tune of $884,880 CAD. The alleged losses were incurred by the lawsuit-bringers after the company offered 10% of its shares for sale on the cryptocurrency-based asset exchange, Havelock Investments then stopped listing the stock by the end of 2013.
ben_vulpes: ah it's the whole gang
ben_vulpes: oh is there a CaVirtEx and VirtEx?
mircea_popescu: wait. wasn't that kumala that did the vtx thing ?
ben_vulpes: the one who did a runner with a Havelock "raise"
ben_vulpes: how was the strip club, hanbot?
nubbins`: big reveal at the start: lasered art in wood
nubbins`: fluffypony i lel'd heartily at the video
mircea_popescu: winchel would chisel them into little egg supports.
assbot: The conference, third edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1C04wU3 )
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/#comment-111706 << ne1 know this guy ?
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: you flappin
ben_vulpes: i discovered recently that "baby" carrots aren't so much "lathed" as they are knocked around in a conical abrasive vessel
mircea_popescu: nubbins` i can tell by some of the pixels.
mircea_popescu: unless the number of lines is larger than 999999. */
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hard to say. dead rat and dead lion get eaten by crows just the same
ben_vulpes is but a humble student of the trade
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, just the power ranger lot. they'd have (i optimistically assume) been excluded / self out-selected if the satoshi actually understood programming.
asciilifeform: the pleasures of reinvention ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does, unfortunately, mean that they who did forget / never had what to forget can pass for "geniuses"
ben_vulpes: if you'll forgive the glib response, figure out what can be riven from the satoshi codebase
mircea_popescu: with the list i mean.
ben_vulpes: then this implies a requirement that a bitcoind-node know about and be able to return data about the various chains of which it knows.
mircea_popescu: think of it as "chain of pointers" and now tell me who the fuck doesn't flunk the idiot that actually keeps an enumeration array for the chain
mircea_popescu: this is nonsense of the first order, an utter antipattern, and iof they weren't stupid as frogs i'd suspect its deliberate
ben_vulpes: "there is only one chain" as well.
mircea_popescu: (another bit of braindamage th epower rangers forced upon the world, other than "historical transaction validity" as a thing, is "block as aheight"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: if i know that the most recent block was of height N, I can ask bitcoind-node for the hash of the block at height N
ben_vulpes: idiomatic cpp aside, thoughts on the list?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rather painful to read for anyone who is not in a daily habit of birthing similarly flavoured monstrosities
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this is just the kind of manual which ought to live in a 'lions book' commentary on source.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the reason, incidentally, i didn';t read it myself is i dun trust my rudimentary c understanding.
asciilifeform: so the postulates aren't orthogonal.
ben_vulpes: - relay transactions to the network
asciilifeform: it simply needs to get off the planet. it is an instrument of muppetry, plain and simple.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i refer of course to the quoted price of attendance.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't that be the pirate of all time
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lol i sorta assume he'll be there.
ben_vulpes: for the record, attendance declarations are only binding on those who wish to attend, not his unimpeachable lordship mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sorta assumed that you either read it, or had it read to you, or wrote compatible gadget
mircea_popescu: i suppose it is a testament to my scholarship that i can actually get away with outsourcing the actual readsing ?
assbot: The conference, third edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uKxzJ3 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/#comment-111701 << 'confirmed' << i ponied up on 12/31, where's the 'confirmed'
assbot: Why Dogecoin is a scam, why the people pushing it are assholes, why Business Insider is a contemptible piece of shit, why anyone who ever worked for it will be dancing in the street for nickels and why Kevin Rose is a fuckwit. Plus other considerations. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uKxtRQ )
asciilifeform: exhortation, from now on, abbreviated for convenience, 'RTFT' (read the fucking turd.)
asciilifeform: you might need a decade to find all the weird, quasi-exploitable hair, but to get a basic understanding of how the thing works - is another matter. very doable.
asciilifeform: now is the time for folks who have not actually bothered to read the fscking source, to confess.
mircea_popescu: how about the production of communications to include voice << im not sure right off what that'd do.
mats: perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ? << how about the production of communications to include voice, where there is a written record of it? e.g. transcript of wiretap log
decimation: at the present time, it seems to me that bitcoin derivatives do not serve a real market need
mircea_popescu: <mats> mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements? << perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ?
assbot: The Emperor is Buttnaked (BTC block size discussion with Gavin) : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CpvB1r )
mircea_popescu: davout http://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2t7k6w/the_emperor_is_buttnaked_btc_block_size/ << apparently you got haters
mircea_popescu: buttonwood_> There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. << nope. isn't, for provable reason. isn't happening in practice, either.
mircea_popescu: <mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << mats is like the oracle on the topic now!
mircea_popescu: <buttonwood_> I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ? << no. people do thje trust calculation by hand.
mats: i figured i'd give it a shot before proceeding, i've put at least 400 hours in already and i believe there may not be quite a lot of useful data at the end if i continue this way
mats: mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements?
mats: mircea_popescu: but there are 11 judges with 0 cases and 12 with just 1. i'm now going through and reading every case involving USG, i've cleared ten judges this way, but the number of cases i've been able to find have been fairly low in number
mats: mircea_popescu: i've observed that the number of cases meeting the parameters in the courts-circus project are very scarce: i've read every case involving the judges nubbins` listed, with the keyword privacy on Westlaw, which yielded about 90 cases
ben_vulpes: assuming they're any good of course
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Pierre_Rochard to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Pierre_Rochard&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never
Pierre_Rochard: ^ exactly, the difference between a computer oracle and a human arbitrator approaches nil over time
ben_vulpes: buttonwood_: ^^ that bet right there is a good example of best-in-class contracts.
buttonwood_: yes they would certainly be expensive
Pierre_Rochard: buttonwood_ Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. < I’d say it’s mainly because the volatility and discount rate are going to be completely out of whack until fiat is destroyed
ben_vulpes: anyways, there was one. are you aware of why it shut down?
ben_vulpes: that'd be the one, yeah.
ben_vulpes: there was an options exchange for a while, buttonwood_.
buttonwood_: for example, futures and options are largely inexistent in bitcoin. Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. If we used an oracle to do multi sig escrow or step in when there's a dispute the oracle could ensure both sides make good on the contract
mats: 21:15:50 <+mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << in the way you mean to use it, that is
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never
buttonwood_: There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. I can't believe that trusting somebody on bitcoin-otc with a good rating is the optimal solution
mats: offloading due diligence and trying to use technology as a crutch to paper over deficiencies in your business relationship sounds suspiciously like the old world way of doing things
buttonwood_: but the trust can be drastically reduced
mats: look, you can't offload the complex business of trust to anything but a human.
mats: all extant projects purporting to be 'smart contract technology' is a scam. like ethereum.
buttonwood_: I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ?
decimation: buttonwood_: do you work for the economist?
mircea_popescu: what's being verified is a) control of the address in question and b) bitcoin feeding it included in a block.
mircea_popescu: maybe the reason we've talked so long about this is because we're saying the same thing/
jurov: check that is it valid is done by checking all the inputs' singatures
mircea_popescu: the reason ytou know block 5 is a valid block IS that they were valid outputs, or was at the time, but this is a separate topic.
jurov: regardless if they are in blocks
mircea_popescu: mebbe i dun understand what the problem is.
mircea_popescu: but if they are different outputs, included in variuous blocks... they're verifiable by those blocks... ?
jurov: makes a withdrawal out of them
mircea_popescu: <jurov> now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address << it's whjat i took this to introduce.
mircea_popescu: jurov weren't you proposing that *somehow* there's ambiguous outputs as the entire point of what you were saying ?
jurov: nor there was successful attempt to make it so so far
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nah. im just saying, if it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous.
ben_vulpes: but you're saying that if i cook up a transaction that has 1march29th as an input, the miners should actually rewrite that to use 1march15th as an input?
mircea_popescu: honestly i thought this is what the topic was.
jurov: but it hasnt' anything with bitcoin then
jurov: well mircea, then make a spec. many people unsuccessfully tried various mixing proposals that were supposed to do what you propose
ben_vulpes: i'm talking about the reference implementation.
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack. <<
mircea_popescu: then on 25th march, 1jurovaddress pays 1 btc.
jurov: yes, hence the various horrible database turds
mircea_popescu: jurov let's take the following case : on march 15th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc. on march 20th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc.
jurov: they check as above
jurov: to check the signatures
jurov: now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address
jurov: maybe last try: let's have deposits to mpex sprinkled in various blocks, they are unspent outputs
jurov: ofc when it is fully spend, then you won't have to do anymore
jurov: if you need to keep track in which block it is, then it does have identity
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla let me put it another way : the miner output of a block is actually defined by the code as "everything left over once you substract the sum output from the sum input"
mircea_popescu: in general, we';re not against anything power rangers CLAIM to want to do. it's just that a) thjey never actually do it and b) always break other things 'attempting'
mircea_popescu: note that the way proposed above allows one to still verify the whole damned chain from block 1 onwards.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla because they want to do it stupidly.
decimation: so, if one 'submits' a chain of 1000 transactions, attached to only one tx output, one can imagine that they might not verify all in the same block, depending on the mempool logic
jurov: for that you want to have the outputs indexed somewhere
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all that needs to be done is verify that a tx input matches a previously included output, and that the block was valid.
jurov: can it be done without doing the individual signatures?
mircea_popescu: currently proposed transactions are verified on the basis of historically accepted blocks, not on tyhe basis of historically accepted transactions.
jurov: so to verify if you mus pull the scraps out
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "veryinfing a transaction that was already included"
jurov: it's not the case
mircea_popescu: this is nothing but the actual case.